question about 7 year peace treaty

[OneDay]

Quote:
1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.

Sorry! I didn't mean to sound unloving!! The ideas were very interesting, I just agree with Sue-M.

What they are proposing doesn't line up with ALL the other scriptures. Everything has to agree or the theory isn't correct. There is a reason why the church has believed that there would be a 7 year covenant, which is started by the Anti-Christ. The reason is because all the other scriptures line up with this.

Now, I could be wrong. But, what has been proposed here by some other people is not sound and certainly does not go along with other scriptures. For instance, the 7 year "covenant" is not made by Jesus. The 70 weeks of Daniel is not 70 years, etc. The temple cannot be spritual because the Jews are not saved. I am not saying I have all the answers. I am keeping my eyes open to what God is going to do.

But hey, everyone is entitted to their opinion! My dear mother-in-law believes that man kind never sinned. That we were just sinned against by satan, & she uses scripture to prove it...
By the way, mods - I didn't write that last post. Who did???

[Abiding in His Word]

By the way, mods - I didn't write that last post. Who did???

I did. I was responding to Mr. Baldy, but it was a response to a different thread/topic.

I think a switchover was made last evening because the board was unavailable for a few hours. The board was transferred to a new hosting co. and upgraded to a newer version of php. It may have caused a few glitches.

[Abiding in His Word]

Here's the thread where I replied to Mr Baldy:

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtop ... 450#371450

So my post belongs there.....

[Mrs. B]

Abiding......Is there any where else that a 7 year peace treaty is made with the a/c?

Any scriptures at all?

Also.....the word covenant?

Daniel wrote...
And he shall CONFIRM THE COVENANT.....

What Covenant?
to confirm.....means it is already in existance....

Where is this confirmed any place else in the scriptures?

Jesus is the one who made a covenant.....by his on blood....

Jesus is the Messiah.....and is the blood sacrifice and He made a covenant with His disciples......which we are...His followers

and at the end......of the world or this Generation...

He shall confirm this Covenant with many for a week....
But because of sin the week will be cut short for the elect sake...

He shall confirm the Blood Covenant with many.....
Paul wrote and said...
God would do a short work with the Jews...
but would cut it short for the elect sake...
I Believe this is the Covenant that Daniel was Talking About....

Not Satan......but Jesus

and it will be cut short for the elects sake...
God does a short work with Israel
but cuts it short for the elects sake....

Daniel 9:27b....and he (Jesus) in the midst of the week He Jesus shall cause the Sacrifice and the oblation to cease.....

Only way we can be saved is through the Blood of Jesus..... Seated at the Right Hand of the Father....it Saves us....the Sacrifice and the oblation to cease.....or come to an end...causeing no more sacrifice....or not more salvation....but brings on the end...

.....And for the overspreading of abominations He Jesus shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate or wicked.....

God says....My Spirit shall not always dwell with man....
Jesus said...It would be like the day of Noah..
also Like Lot....sudden distruction.....so shall the end be

I stand to be reproved......

bb

[OBXBob]

Hello Mrs. B.,

In your opinion, what event is spoken of in the bolded text below?

24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
Dan 9:24-27 (NKJV)

YBIC,

Bob

[IamtheWalrus]

Holy Now, I agree. What they are proposing doesn't line up with ALL the other scriptures. Everything has to agree or the theory isn't correct. There is a reason why the church has believed that there would be a 7 year covenant, which is started by the Anti-Christ. The reason is because all the other scriptures line up with that

Where does it support a 7 year Peace treaty???

Scripture please.

[IamtheWalrus]

Hello Mrs. B.,

In your opinion, what event is spoken of in the bolded text below?

24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
Dan 9:24-27 (NKJV)

YBIC,

Bob

Hey Bob,

If you look on the first page of this thread...her second or third post, she answered this with:

Daniel 9:26.....And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, But not for himself: (colon)

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

The semicolon (;) is used:

in compound sentences between independent clauses not joined by connectives, especially if they are extended or have commas within them:

notice......and the people.......of the prince....
of the prince is a prepesional phrase.......not the subject.....
the subject is Messiah

[OBXBob]

Hello IamtheWalrus,

Thanks for the post!

Yes, I'd seen Mrs. B's first reference, but I was just wanting to clarify (not making any assumptions! ) how she interepreted that bolded text.

Just curious IamtheWalrus and Mrs. B., what event in the Bible do you credit Daniel 9:25 to be referencing? And in what year did that event occur?

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

YBIC,


Bob

[waitingformyking]

to confirm a covenant.... means to strengthen a covenant already made.

Mrs. B, Why would Jesus have to confirm the covenant he already made? to confirm means to strengthen. I don't think he need to strengthen what he already made. His covenant was everlasting life. How can you strengthen that? This sounds amillenium to me!

Second.... it was everlasting life an eternal life with him in the millenium kingdom, not seven years. Why would only make it for seven years? I honestly don't understand how you can get all of that out of Daniel 9:26-27

Third..... there are no commas, semi-colons, periods or colons within greek text. Those were added for the benefit of the reader.

If you look through History after Jesus was sacrificed, less than 40 years later a Roman General Titus, also Prince, since his Dad was the emperor of Rome destroyed the city and temple.

Now if we break down those verses with historical accuracies this is what we get..

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Jesus was Crucified


And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

General/Prince titus destroyed the city and sancuary 70 AD

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

We have been at war physically and spiritually ever since. Rome was fighting constantly and Nation against Nation. Out of Rome came a false Church (Catholiscism) which continued it's persecution against Jews and true Christianity about 300AD - 2007AD

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week

Now the Anti-Christ comes in to strengthen a covenant he already had in place (European -Mediterean partnership to the European Nieghborhood Policy)

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
He breaks the covenant and stops sacrifices.

Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
He will continue for 42 months until God's Wrath is poured out on the "Day of the Lord"

It's in chronological order.... Why would jesus strengthen a covenant he already made and how would he strengthen it? Why for only 7 years? If there isn't anyother scripture that can explain this, then this theory can't hold water.

2 Corinthians 1:13
13For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

[Sue-M]

IamtheWalrus,

I never said anything about a peace treaty. It's a covenant that is confirmed, like WaitingformyKing just explained.

Also, to everyone, I did a study (shown above) on the covenants that God made. There were two (or three actually). The first one was with Noah (never to flood the Earth again). The second (and third) were to Abraham. They were involving Abraham's seed to be as many as the stars in the sky and also for the land or inheritence.

Now, Jesus did come from Abraham's seed. But, this was not the covenant. The covenant was that Abraham would be the father of many nations (his seed would be great or he would have a lot of children) and that his seed would have a land inheritence.

Daniel talks about confirming "a" covenant. It would seem that this covenant is one of God's covenants (the two/three that I talked about above). But, it also could be another covenant. All we know is that a covenant is confirmed. Or like WaitingformyKing said, this covenant is not a new covenant but is one (already in existance) that is just strengthened.

Now, the reason that I believe that this covenant is this "Road Map to Peace" thing. Because, Clinton tried to make this work when he was president. But, it failed and was sort of forgotten about. Now, Javier is trying to get this "Road Map to Peace" going again. What I think is very significant, is the meeting that they had in Annapolis this past year. There was pretty much every middle eastern nation there. Which was pretty significant. This could be the confirming the covenant with "many".

We don't know what they were discussing. But, if they were discussing Israel's right to exist in the land, then, this could definately be the "confirming of a covenant". Not only confirming the original "Road map to Peace" but, also confirming God's original covenant with Abraham for Israel's inheritence of the land.

BTW, WaitingformyKing, you made some very good points!

[IamtheWalrus]

to confirm a covenant.... means to strengthen a covenant already made.

Mrs. B, Why would Jesus have to confirm the covenant he already made? to confirm means to strengthen. I don't think he need to strengthen what he already made. His covenant was everlasting life. How can you strengthen that? This sounds amillenium to me!

Second.... it was everlasting life an eternal life with him in the millenium kingdom, not seven years. Why would only make it for seven years? I honestly don't understand how you can get all of that out of Daniel 9:26-27

Third..... there are no commas, semi-colons, periods or colons within greek text. Those were added for the benefit of the reader.

If you look through History after Jesus was sacrificed, less than 40 years later a Roman General Titus, also Prince, since his Dad was the emperor of Rome destroyed the city and temple.

Now if we break down those verses with historical accuracies this is what we get..

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Jesus was Crucified


And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

General/Prince titus destroyed the city and sancuary 70 AD

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

We have been at war physically and spiritually ever since. Rome was fighting constantly and Nation against Nation. Out of Rome came a false Church (Catholiscism) which continued it's persecution against Jews and true Christianity about 300AD - 2007AD

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week

Now the Anti-Christ comes in to strengthen a covenant he already had in place (European -Mediterean partnership to the European Nieghborhood Policy)

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
He breaks the covenant and stops sacrifices.

Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
He will continue for 42 months until God's Wrath is poured out on the "Day of the Lord"

It's in chronological order.... Why would jesus strengthen a covenant he already made and how would he strengthen it? Why for only 7 years? If there isn't anyother scripture that can explain this, then this theory can't hold water.

2 Corinthians 1:13
13For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

Let's again look at what I posted and read the verses carefully and see how they confirm Dan 9:24-27

he prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to alloted times are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), and 70 Weeks and etc.

The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.

It is illogical IMO to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?

Daniel 9:27 says nothing about any “tribulation,” “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or “antichrist.” there...or am I wrong?

Daniel 9:24-27’s focus is the Messiah. After the Messiah is “cut off” (referring to Christ’s death), “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. That is concurrent with most of our beliefs.

“He shall confirm the covenant.” Now here is the meat of the debate.

Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” Galatians 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers”
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.
“He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…”
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

Also in Jer 31:31

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah

Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


“In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice…to cease.”

After 3 ½ years of ministry, Jesus Christ’s death put an end to all sacrifices in God’s sight. He is the final Sacrifice!

“For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate”
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It was abominable for the Jewish leaders to put God’s Son to death. This ended their temple. Jesus predicted, “Your house is left to you desolate” Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The 70 weeks applied to the Jewish people
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Christ’s public ministry lasted 3 ½ years during which His focus was “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

After His resurrection and then for another 3 ½ years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews
Acts 1-6
1 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 - And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


When the Jewish Sanhedrin stoned Stephen in 34 AD (see Acts 7)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/ ... ts%207#top

the gospel shifted to the Gentiles
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

exactly as prophecy predicted.

[Sue-M]

Let's again look at what I posted and read the verses carefully and see how they confirm Dan 9:24-27

he prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to alloted times are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), and 70 Weeks and etc.

The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.

It is illogical IMO to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?

The prophecy given to Daniel in Daniel 9, was clearly for the Jews because Gabriel tells Daniel what has been decreed for the Jewish people in verse 24. And then Gabriel tells Daniel that there is a time period of 70 weeks decreed for the Jews and Gabriel gives Daniel a list of what will take place for the Jewish people.
----------
This is what Gabriel said was decreed.
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
---------------


But, what happened is the Jews rejected Jesus. When they did this, the 70 weeks stopped at 69 weeks (when Jesus was cut off). And then entered Pentecost or the time of the gentiles. Jesus told the Apostles to “wait” for the gift of the Holy Spirit/Pentecost (Acts 1:4). This is where the gentiles are grafted in. But, what Gabriel gave to Daniel was not for the gentiles. It was for the Jews. So, because the Jews chose to reject Jesus, then Jesus turned towards the gentiles. The last week will begin again after the last gentile comes in.

You are trying to put these 70 weeks into the church timeframe. If the 70 weeks were finished, then all the things that Gabriel told Daniel that were to transpire for the Jews would have been finished. And we know that they have not been finished. Look at them again. Do you believe they are finished?

“He shall confirm the covenant.” Now here is the meat of the debate.

Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” Galatians 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

You are misinterpreting Galatians 3:17. Paul is not saying that Jesus confirmed the covenant. Paul is saying that the covenant was confirmed by God through Christ.

Meaning, that first, the law wasn’t what saved them, it was Jesus. And second, that the “seed” wasn’t just Jews, it was gentiles also because of what Jesus did on the cross.

Remember, God told Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. Well, this is impossible because Abraham’s direct descendants were Jewish. But, the “many nations” refers to us gentiles. So, the many nations happened because of Jesus being crucified on the cross and grafting in the gentiles.

If you look at verse 18, Paul continues speaking and says that the “inheritance” didn’t depend on the law but on God’s promise to Abraham. So, Paul is saying the covenant was about the inheritance and the inheritance is not only for Jews but for gentiles. And in verse 22, we see that this promise or covenant is given to those who believe. You have to remember also, the Jews today are not saved. They do not believe and so they are not even a part of this “covenant” yet. God confirmed the covenant through Jesus because it wasn't until Jesus died on the cross, that Abraham could become the father of many nations. This entire chapter of Galations is about Paul explaining salvation through Jesus and not salvation through the law.

Verse 23, Paul says that before Jesus, all the Jews had was the law and they were in bondage to the law, until faith was revealed. So, the law was put into place to lead the Jews to Jesus. Paul is trying to get the Jews to see the purpose of the law.

In verse 17, Paul is explaining that what happened was God gave Abraham the covenant. Then, God gave the law to Moses. But, the law didn’t minus out the covenant.

The law is one thing. The covenant with Abraham is another thing. And you are confusing the two.

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.
“He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…”
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

Now, in Romans 15:8, you are taking just that one sentence and making a theory based on that one sentence.

The very next sentence, verse 9, says “And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.”

So, again, Paul is telling the Jews that the promise or covenant was that Abraham would be a father of many nations, this includes the gentiles. But, the gentiles could not have been included in this until Jesus died on the cross.

Now, think about this. Jesus said He didn’t come to stop the law, but to fulfill the law. He didn’t say He came to confirm the covenant. If anything, Jesus fulfilled the covenant in that He brought a grafting in of the gentiles. Remember, the covenant was of the seed (Abraham father of many nations and having lots of kids) and also the covenant was about land inheritance. So, what Jesus did in no way “confirmed” this covenant. It actually fulfilled it completely. It was finished. The gentiles were grafted in. Abraham was indeed the father of many nations (through Jesus). And when Jesus returns, we gentiles will inherit the land also.

Also in Jer 31:31

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah

Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

What you are doing is mixing up the word for covenant that was given to Abraham (and Noah) and Daniel and the word for testament that is all through the New Testament. These are different words with different meanings. And the meaning of the covenant in Daniel is not the same meaning of the word “testament”. The old testament is referring to the law and the new testament is referring to the completion of the law through Jesus. This is much different than the covenant given to Abraham.

Okay, now let’s examine a few of the scriptures that talk about Jesus when He said “new testament”.

Luke 22:20

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Testament is G1242 below


1 Corinthians 11:25

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Testament is G1242 below

2 Corinthians 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Testament is G1242 below


This word “testament” is not the same word that was used when God gave Abraham the covenant. The covenant given to Abraham involved the cutting of meat and shedding of blood. This word is not the same.

Testament = G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.


The word “covenant” used in Daniel 9:25 is not the same word.

Covenant = H1285
בּרית
berîyth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.

If you are going to say that Jesus gave us a new covenant, it’s not the same covenant as spoken to us in Daniel.

[Sue-M]

IamtheWalrus, you are saying that there can't possibly be a break in time between the 69th week and the 70th week. Well, you are putting a "break" in the middle of the 7 weeks by saying that 3 1/2 years Jesus did "whatever you are saying He did" and then we are now waiting for the last 3 1/2 years to be finished. Well, do you see that you are putting in your own break?

There has to be a break in time, because, what has been decreed for the Jews has not been finished.

[Sue-M]

The New Testament, or what you are calling the new covenant that Jesus made, is in reference to salvation. It is therefore referring to the law. Because, the law is what the Jews did to be saved (in the OT) and Jesus filfilled the law and we are saved now by faith (which is the new covenant, in the NT).

Now, this is totally different from the covenant given to Abraham.

The New Testament or new covenant (that you are calling it) is not a confirming of a convenat. It is a fulfilling. Actually, Jesus fulfilled both.

Jesus fulfilled the convenant with Abraham in that, Abraham is now the father of many nations (through Jesus) and also Israel was given the land inheritance. We will be there when Jesus returns. It is our inheritance also.

Jesus also fulfilled the law. Because the law was actually pointing to what Jesus did on the cross.

Hopefully, I have explained it well enough to understand.

[IamtheWalrus]

IamtheWalrus, you are saying that there can't possibly be a break in time between the 69th week and the 70th week. Well, you are putting a "break" in the middle of the 7 weeks by saying that 3 1/2 years Jesus did "whatever you are saying He did" and then we are now waiting for the last 3 1/2 years to be finished. Well, do you see that you are putting in your own break?

There has to be a break in time, because, what has been decreed for the Jews has not been finished.

Actually, I am not putting any break in between them. The 70 weeks finished when Paul turned the ministry away from the Jews to the Gentiles.

In the middle of the 70th week. Jesus died, thus ending the need for sacrifices.

[IamtheWalrus]

The New Testament, or what you are calling the new covenant that Jesus made, is in reference to salvation. It is therefore referring to the law. Because, the law is what the Jews did to be saved (in the OT) and Jesus filfilled the law and we are saved now by faith (which is the new covenant, in the NT).

Now, this is totally different from the covenant given to Abraham.

The New Testament or new covenant (that you are calling it) is not a confirming of a convenat. It is a fulfilling. Actually, Jesus fulfilled both.

Jesus fulfilled the convenant with Abraham in that, Abraham is now the father of many nations (through Jesus) and also Israel was given the land inheritance. We will be there when Jesus returns. It is our inheritance also.

Jesus also fulfilled the law. Because the law was actually pointing to what Jesus did on the cross.

Hopefully, I have explained it well enough to understand.

This is not a different covenant given to Abraham, and yes it is fulfilling as well as a confirmation, now being made in blood by Jesus.
It is strengthening of the covenant made By God through Abraham by Jesus' ministry and well Him being God-Man.

You have explained yourself, just a difference of interpretation. Like I said before, I too, once believed as you have, thinking that these verses only dealt with Christ's death and then an Antichrist to come.
But not any more. You can call me a preterist or whatever, but I am not. Many prophecies in the Bible IMO, have not been fulfilled, especially the Second Coming of Jesus. But this alloted decreed time for Israel of 70 weeks/490 years...have.

In a nutshell:

Seven years pass, Jerusalem is restored. 476 years pass and Christ comes on the scene, baptized by John and begins his ministry, all in the same year (remeber He was baptized and then went to the desert/tempted by Satan/40 days/Nights), and after gathers His disciples. In the middle of His ministry, he gets arrested and is crucified. The ministry carries on (to the Jews) for another 3 1/2 years until Stephen is martyred. Paul changes course of the ministry Jesus began to the Gentiles. Thus ending with 490 years.

The problem I think some are having a hard time catching on is verse 26 about the "prince of the people shall come" and tying that into verse 27, correlating the two. All verse 26 refers to is Titus coming, hence the word "shall" being future tense...that is after the 70 weeks are completed...and so on...with many wars inflicted upon the Jews....(that is all the persecution the Jews have gone through since AD 70 because they rejected the Messaih.
When Christ was crucified He asked God to forgive His murderers....right? The covenant between the Jews and God ended with Stephen's death, that is about their salvation, and since Jesus asked for forgiveness, God acted beyond the covenant and gave them a probationary period of 40 years to get it right. Since they did not, AD 70 happened.

"even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This is the marriage between those that have accepted Jesus as their personal savior, and of course the Wrath of God that soon follows the Second Coming.

I hope I have helped, but I fear not, which is ok, because it doesn't affect our salvation either way.

I still do believe there will be a similar event such as AEIV and Titus with a Final AC, but that reference is later in Daniel 11 when this AC proclaims himself to be god, unlike the prior two AOD's, which Christ referred to in Matt 24:15.

GBU

[Sue-M]

The "new covenant" that Jesus gave us was related to salvation. Salvation was not what God promised Abraham. Please tell me exactly what you believe was promised to Abraham by God that was confirmed by Jesus.

And since you believe the 70 years have been finished, please show me exactly how each one of these has been fulfilled.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
1. to finish the transgression, and
2. to make an end of sins, and
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
6. to anoint the most Holy.

[Sue-M]

IamtheWalrus, I really would like you to answer my post above this one, but, I wanted to say something and make it separate from that post.

The reason why it's not good what you are believing is that first, if the "he that confirms the covenant" is really the anti-Christ, then you are calling Jesus the anti-Christ. And second, if you read the OT, God consistently was angry at anyone who didn't go along with His Will. The entire OT was prophecy to the people that were living in that day. And God's Will was to show them Jesus, through the law and the sacrifices. Even if they did the sacrifices wrong by a little bit, God would pass judgment on them. They had to follow what God said to the "t". Even from the very beginning, God did not look with favor on Cain's offering. Because, it wasn't according to God's Will. Cain got angry instead of trying to figure out what God really wanted. God is the same today.

What you are believing is that Jesus has 3 1/2 more years left of His ministry. So, you could be deceived by the anti-Christ when he comes back and claims to be God.

[OBXBob]

Hello IamtheWalrus,

Daniel gave a very specific starting point for the 70 weeks.

Can you provide a Biblical event, and corresponding date for when this event occured, that will satisfy your theory of the identy of the 'he'?

It appears you are saying that the 70 weeks, per your interpretation, ended 3.5 years after Jesus was crucified. This would have to mean that the 70 weeks ended near the end of 35AD. What recorded event can you pinpoint relative to Paul that is tied to the end of 35AD that would in itself have marked the end of the 70th week? Most believe that Paul's first mission trip did not even begin until manh years after 35AD.

The major outage I see with the translation of the 'he' being Jesus and not the anti-Christ, is that I've never seen any argument which consists of a date / event / methodology that can pass the scrutiny of meeting the requirements of the start date for the 70th week, per Daniel's definition.

IMO, any theory must be able to 'possess' the 'DNA' of that passage in Daniel that describes the beginning of the 70 weeks, and the correpsonding time of the Messiah. The starting point of the 70th week, IMO, must be the foundation for any 'theory' on the meaning of the 70th weeks. If the starting point of a theory cannot match Daniel's definition, IMO, it's not a valid theory.

YBIC,


Bob

[IamtheWalrus]

Hello folks,

I am pretty sure I answered all these questions in this thread :

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41072

If you need more, please ask me something else.

[IamtheWalrus]

What you are believing is that Jesus has 3 1/2 more years left of His ministry. So, you could be deceived by the anti-Christ when he comes back and claims to be God.

Doubt it very much. I never said that Jesus has 3 1/2 years left to His ministry. His ministry....to the Jews, ended when Stephen died. His Ministry turned to the Gentile, by Paul and Barnabas. How many times do I have to say that?

Also, the Antichrist doesn't break through the clouds while the seventh trumpet is sounding in the midst of the Battle of Armageddon.

Jesus does...according to Revelation.

[waitingformyking]

Let's again look at what I posted and read the verses carefully and see how they confirm Dan 9:24-27

he prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to alloted times are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), and 70 Weeks and etc.

The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.

It is illogical IMO to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?

Actually it seperates the contents into 3 different periods.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Daniel 9:24

First you need to understand that ezekial vision concerning Israel was the physical nation of Israel. Daniel's vision was the spiritual restoration of Israel.

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.Daniel 9:26

First period is 7 weeks or 49 years. It was 49 years until the issueing of the decree until the walls were completed.
Second period is 62 weeks or 434 years. exactly 434 years afterward the completion of the temple the Messiah was cut off.
Third period as we all know is 1 week or 7 years which a covenant is confirmed or strenghtened.

Daniel 9:27 says nothing about any “tribulation,” “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or “antichrist.” there...or am I wrong?

Daniel 9:24-27’s focus is the Messiah. After the Messiah is “cut off” (referring to Christ’s death), “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. That is concurrent with most of our beliefs.

“He shall confirm the covenant.” Now here is the meat of the debate.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.daniel 9:27

When do we know when a flood is coming/ Usually we don't because it so sudden, but if the 70th week is sequential like you suggest then we would of known. We also would of know that Jesus would be here already after the 6th seal was opened

Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” Galatians 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

In Daniel 9:27 the word "confirm"[01396] means strengthen

Paul "confirm"[4300] in Galatians means 1) to sanction, ratify, or establish beforehand

Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers”
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

Here you are missing the point. The word "confirm" is used in the same context of Daniel 9:27, butit refering to the circumcision which was a convent showing that Abraham and his decendants belng to God. Jesus strengthened(confirmed) that covenant by extending it to the Gentiles.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.Romans 15:8-9

The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.
“He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…”
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

Please don't get offended by the way I come across, but the KJV uses New Testament. You right it is a covenant but you also need to understand the ceremony Jesus was participating in. He was having Pesach Seder(Passover Supper). The Hebrew word “sedar” means arrangement or “order” and refers to an orchestrated ceremony or liturgy with a distinct phases or steps. During this ceremony, stories are told about the original Passover when God brought Israel out of Egypt.
One of the things most interesting is the 4 cups that are drunk during the ceremony is the meaning which were the four promises God gave to Moses. (Ex 6:6-7)
1. Cup of Sanctification; I will bring you out
2. Cup of Deliverance; I will free you
3. Cup of Redemption; I will redeem you
4. Cup of Restoration; I will take you as my own people
Jesus drinks the first two cups the traditional way and with the third cup he told his disciples; “this is my blood” (Matt. 26:27-39) and didn’t drink the fourth cup with them. He promised them he will drink the fourth cup when he returns and sets up his millennial kingdom. (Matt. 26:29)

He wasn't quoting Daniel 9:27, he was referring to the blood that redeems us from sin and allows us to enter into Heaven through him.

Also in Jer 31:31

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah

Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


“In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice…to cease.”

After 3 ½ years of ministry, Jesus Christ’s death put an end to all sacrifices in God’s sight. He is the final Sacrifice!

Jeremiah and Mark does speak of a New Covenant which the Messiah will bring. The New covenant is strengthening of the old by extending it to the Gentiles and making the ultimate sacrifice for sin. The whole sacrifice never got rid of sin it only covered it for a short while. His ministry shouldn't be confused with Daniels time, times and half time or Revelations 1260 days, those days are the time for Jacobs Trouble or Great tribulation. There is a big difference.... there was no Jacob's trouble during Jesus ministry or Great tribulation. They only had to pay taxes nothing else. They weren't being hauled off and killed because they didn't bow down to the Anti-Christ.

“For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate”
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"sacrifice and oblation to cease" to cease is a physical verb which means to physical to bring a stop too. Jesus never physical stopped them from offereing thier grain(oblation) and lamb sacrifices. They continued to do so until Roman's destroyed the temple and they are starting it today. Jesus only made there sacrifices obstinate, worthless or not needed.

It was abominable for the Jewish leaders to put God’s Son to death. This ended their temple. Jesus predicted, “Your house is left to you desolate” Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

He didn't predict it, but was reminding them that from the sins of thier fathers after liking the prophets which was sent to them made thier house (Temple) desolate (uninhabited). In other words.... God's Glory left the temple along time ago when her Kings were ungodly.

[Mrs. B]

Been Camping.......be gone again....bb

Sue M....

And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.....:

Jesus shall confirm the Blood Covenant with many......this is the work...or short work that Paul wrote about in Romans...

Romans 9:27....Esaias also cried concerning Israel,
Though the number of the Children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED:

28.....FOR HE (JESUS) WILL FINISH THE WORK, and cut it Short in Righteousness:
Because....A SHORT WORK....Will the Lord Make upon the Earth....

The Gospel first was Preached to the Jews......then the Gospel was turned unto the Gentiles...
But....
Romans 11:25.....For I would not, Brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that Blindness in part is happened to Israel , UNTIL the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in,

26......And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIVER, AND shall Turn away Ungodliness from Jacob:

27.....FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM.....when I shall take away their sins.

28.....As Concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT...as touching the Eletion, they are BELOVED FOR THE FATHERS' SAKE....(Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the Fathers)

29....For the Gifts and Calling of God are without Repentance.....


This is the Short Work....
Daniel 9:27.....And He (Jesus) shall confirm the Blood Covenant with many for one week:

This is the Short Work Paul is talking about.......letting the blindness of Israel eyes be opened

and in the midst of the week He Jesus shall cause the Sacrifice and the Oblation to Cease.....

The Doors of salvation or shoot.....Why? and for the Overspreading of Abominations.....He Shall make it Desolate, Even until the Consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolation.....


After the Sins of the Gentiles are full....God is doing a short work with Israel.....for the fathers sake....God Promised Abraham.....and God is faithful...

Israel celebrated 60 years back in the Home Land.........this leaves 10 to make Seventy......It is my belief that the Next Ten years will be the wrapping up of the end........

bb

willl not be here for maybe two weeks.....

[Mrs. B]

I believe the War.....World War 2.....was like the beginning of the end....

the suffering of the Jew is unbelievable.......

Read Isaiah 26 and 27....

Is. 27:9....By this therefore shall the Iniquity of Jacob be purged;
and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up...

10.....Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness:
there shall be calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof...

11.....When the broughts thereof are withered, they shall be broken off:
the women come, and set them on fire:
for it is a people of No Understanding:
Therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and the that formed them will shew them no favour...

12.....And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be Gathered One by One, O Ye Children of Israel...

ONE BY ONE....O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

13......And it shall come to pass that day, that the Great Trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the Holy Mount at Jerusalem.....


Abraham looked for a City.....whose builder and Maker was God....not Jerusalem we see today.....Abraham looked for a Heavenly City.......A Heavenly Jerusalem....The New Holy City coming down from God.....New Jerusalem....

[waitingformyking]

Daniel 9:27.....And He (Jesus) shall confirm the Blood Covenant with many for one week:

Mrs. B,

It doesn't say that in Daniel 9:27. It said nothing about a blood covenant.... only a covenant. Again why would Jesus only say for 1 week? His covenant was for eternity. Taking this verse and making it into a messianic message under assumption is exactly what it is, An assumption.

Take the order of the 3 verses (9:25-27)

Messiah cut off
Prince destroys Jerusalem and Temple
Then a covenant

Jesus made the covenant of blood BEFORE the prince destroys the Temple and Jerusalem. He didn't come back to make a covenant or strengthen it. It was done and completed at Calvary. It just doesn't fit.
Also it said he strengthened a covenant that was already in place (i.e confirm), again, how can Jesus confirm a covenant of eternity?

Only 3 covenant were made by God to Abraham
1. father of many Nations(circumcision)
2. a son
3. promised land (Isaac)

each one has been granted before Jesus died on the cross so which one did he strengthened?


Quick question..... are you amillenium?

[Mrs. B]

God fortold that he would make a New Covenant with Israel....

Hebrews 8:7......For if that first Covenant had been Faultless, then should no place have been souoght for the second.....

8.....For finding fault with them...he saith...
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will Make A NEW COVENANT with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:

9......Not according to the Covenant that I made with Their Fathers in the Day when I took them by the hand to Lead them Out of the land of Egypt;
Because they Continued NOT in My Covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10.......For this is the COVENANT that I Will Make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I Will Put MY LAWS into their Mind, and Write them in their Hearts:
and I will be to Them a God, and they shall be to me a People:

11.....And they shall Not Teach Every man His neighbor, and every man His brother, saying, Know the Lord:
for all shall Know me, from the least to the greatest...

12....For I will be Merciful to their Unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I Remember no more.

13.....In that he saith.....A NEW COVENANT. HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD...
NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.......


WE KNOW THAT THIS.....COVENANT IS THE BLOOD COVENANT.....JESUS IS THE LAMB OF GOD....OFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORD......A BLOOD COVENANT...


NO I AM NOT A AMILLENIUM.........WHAT IS A AMILLENIUM?


MOST GO...BB

[waitingformyking]

God fortold that he would make a New Covenant with Israel....

Hebrews 8:7......For if that first Covenant had been Faultless, then should no place have been souoght for the second.....

8.....For finding fault with them...he saith...
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will Make A NEW COVENANT with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:

9......Not according to the Covenant that I made with Their Fathers in the Day when I took them by the hand to Lead them Out of the land of Egypt;
Because they Continued NOT in My Covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10.......For this is the COVENANT that I Will Make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I Will Put MY LAWS into their Mind, and Write them in their Hearts:
and I will be to Them a God, and they shall be to me a People:

11.....And they shall Not Teach Every man His neighbor, and every man His brother, saying, Know the Lord:
for all shall Know me, from the least to the greatest...

12....For I will be Merciful to their Unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I Remember no more.

13.....In that he saith.....A NEW COVENANT. HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD...
NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.......


WE KNOW THAT THIS.....COVENANT IS THE BLOOD COVENANT.....JESUS IS THE LAMB OF GOD....OFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORD......A BLOOD COVENANT...


NO I AM NOT A AMILLENIUM.........WHAT IS A AMILLENIUM?


MOST GO...BB

I first want to appologize if I come across wrong, because sometimes I don't choose my words carefully when I become passionate about a certain subject.
Amillenium believe that the 70th week happened during Christ minstry and death and the 1000 year millenium which is suppose to happen at the end of the 70th week is the Church age.

10.......For this is the COVENANT that I Will Make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I Will Put MY LAWS into their Mind, and Write them in their Hearts:
and I will be to Them a God, and they shall be to me a People:

This is speaking of a future tense with Israel.... There will be a time when Israel will have thier laws incribed in thier heart. When you come across a verse like this..... the best thing to do is look throughout scriptutre for similiarities. Here is the prophet Jeremiah; Old Testament

Jeremiah 30 speaks about the restoration of Israel...
1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity [a] and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."
4 These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 "This is what the LORD says:
" 'Cries of fear are heard—
terror, not peace.

7 How awful that day will be!
None will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, ( Great Tribulation)
but he will be saved out of it.

10 " 'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant;
do not be dismayed, O Israel,'
declares the LORD.
'I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
and no one will make him afraid.

11 I am with you and will save you,'
declares the LORD.
'Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you, (Armageddon)
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only with justice;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'

14 All your allies have forgotten you; (America)
they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
and punished you as would the cruel,
because your guilt is so great
and your sins so many.

15 Why do you cry out over your wound,
your pain that has no cure?
Because of your great guilt and many sins
I have done these things to you.

16 " 'But all who devour you will be devoured;
all your enemies will go into exile.
Those who plunder you will be plundered;
all who make spoil of you I will despoil.

17 But I will restore you to health
and heal your wounds,'
declares the LORD,
'because you are called an outcast,
Zion for whom no one cares.'

18 "This is what the LORD says:
" 'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
and the palace will stand in its proper place.

19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving
and the sound of rejoicing.
I will add to their numbers,
and they will not be decreased;
I will bring them honor,
and they will not be disdained.

20 Their children will be as in days of old,
and their community will be established before me;
I will punish all who oppress them.

23 See, the storm of the LORD
will burst out in wrath, (Day of the Lord)
a driving wind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.

24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand this.

Then we go to chapter 31 which speaks about Israel being restored spiritual, which will happened at the second coming.

1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."

2 This is what the LORD says:
"The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the desert;
I will come to give rest to Israel."

3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, [a] saying:
"I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

4 I will build you up again
and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful.

5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.

6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
'Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the LORD our God.' " ( Jesus is rulling in Jerusalem (Millenium period))

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. (The law is written in Israel's heart)
38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."
(The city has been destroyed plenty of times after Jesus' crucifiction so that covenant won't be made new until his second coming when he restores israel and establishes his kingdom on earth)

[waitingformyking]

I believe the War.....World War 2.....was like the beginning of the end....

the suffering of the Jew is unbelievable.......

Read Isaiah 26 and 27....

Is. 27:9....By this therefore shall the Iniquity of Jacob be purged;
and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up...

10.....Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness:
there shall be calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof...

11.....When the broughts thereof are withered, they shall be broken off:
the women come, and set them on fire:
for it is a people of No Understanding:
Therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and the that formed them will shew them no favour...

12.....And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be Gathered One by One, O Ye Children of Israel...

ONE BY ONE....O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

13......And it shall come to pass that day, that the Great Trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the Holy Mount at Jerusalem.....


Abraham looked for a City.....whose builder and Maker was God....not Jerusalem we see today.....Abraham looked for a Heavenly City.......A Heavenly Jerusalem....The New Holy City coming down from God.....New Jerusalem....

I'm confused because this prophecy is after Abraham. Isaiah was during the time Israel was split into 2 kingdoms and it sounds like it was right after northern kingdom was taken captive already.

To me.... World War 2 was Satan's last atempt to prevent god's prophecy of Israel being reborn and setting the stage for the last 7 years of Daniels prophecy.

The prophets, Daniel and Ezekial, both spoke of Israel's future but Ezekial spoke of Natural Israel being restored physically as a Nation and Daniel spoke of Israel being restored spiritually.
We know Israel was restored as a Nation, but Israel still hasn't been restored spiritually until Jesus' second coming.

[IamtheWalrus]

One question for everyone here...

When and where in the Bible, except for this 70 week time slot that most of you propose to be gapped, does God start, stop, then start up again a Time Allocated Prophecy decreed to the Jewish people, or any other nation for that matter?

[Sue-M]

One question for everyone here...

When and where in the Bible, except for this 70 week time slot that most of you propose to be gapped, does God start, stop, then start up again a Time Allocated Prophecy decreed to the Jewish people, or any other nation for that matter?

IamtheWalrus, Jesus said that He came for the Jews first. There are a lot of scriptures that talk about that. I can find them for you if you want. But, then, after Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, Jesus wept because Jesus knew that the Jews were not really recognizing Him as Messiah. And Jesus said that because they didn't recognize Messiah, their eyes would be blinded and they would be overtaken and disbursed throughout the earth and the Temple would be destroyed and all because they didn't recognize Jesus, the Messiah. This was not what was intended for them. Thus, 70 weeks were given but 70 weeks were not completed. The last week is "on hold" (so to speak) because God has allowed the gentiles to come in. There is a lot of scriptures that talk about the time of the gentiles also. The last week (which has be prophecied for Israel only) will happen when the time of the gentiles is completed.

This prophecy in Daniel 9 that we are talking about shows us the stopping of the 70 weeks. If you read it again, you will see that this prophecy is not even given to us as a complete 70 weeks. It's given to us with breaks.

You should listen to the videos of Steve Hadley on Daniel. This prophecy in Daniel (the part that has been fulfilled) was fulfilled to the day. There is no question. There is still one week (or 7 years) left for Israel. It's just not Israel's time until the fullness of the gentiles. I thank God for that.

[sands]

Perhaps this should be in the debate section....

[Sue-M]

Oh, I'm sorry. I was thinking that this was in the debate section the whole time. Sorry about that.

[IamtheWalrus]

IamtheWalrus, Jesus said that He came for the Jews first. There are a lot of scriptures that talk about that. I can find them for you if you want. But, then, after Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, Jesus wept because Jesus knew that the Jews were not really recognizing Him as Messiah. And Jesus said that because they didn't recognize Messiah, their eyes would be blinded and they would be overtaken and disbursed throughout the earth and the Temple would be destroyed and all because they didn't recognize Jesus, the Messiah. This was not what was intended for them. Thus, 70 weeks were given but 70 weeks were not completed. The last week is "on hold" (so to speak) because God has allowed the gentiles to come in. There is a lot of scriptures that talk about the time of the gentiles also. The last week (which has be prophesied for Israel only) will happen when the time of the gentiles is completed.

This prophecy in Daniel 9 that we are talking about shows us the stopping of the 70 weeks. If you read it again, you will see that this prophecy is not even given to us as a complete 70 weeks. It's given to us with breaks.

You should listen to the videos of Steve Hadley on Daniel. This prophecy in Daniel (the part that has been fulfilled) was fulfilled to the day. There is no question. There is still one week (or 7 years) left for Israel. It's just not Israel's time until the fullness of the gentiles. I thank God for that.

You still didn't answer the question Sue. I have watched the video, very good, however, it still does not answer the question I am asking. I agree there will be Great Tribulation lasting 3 and 1/2 years that coincides with the Olivet Discourse, Rev and Daniel 12:7-13, but I am still unconvinced that the week proposed in Dan 9 relates to a 7 year tribulation or peace treaty.

Please answer the question I am asking in the above post.

[waitingformyking]

Iamthewalrus,
I think your missing the point also..... Daniel's 70 weeks isn't consecutive but 3 seperate periods, each has it's own starting and ending point.
Decree of building walls to walls built (7 weeks)
walls built to Messiah cut off (62 weeks)
confirm(strengthen) covenant to spiritual restoration (1 week)

It doesn't say 70 weeks from Decree to build walls to spiritaul restoration. Why in every passage that gives a time frame does it give a full amount, but in this particular passage it is split up in 3 different parts?

[IamtheWalrus]

Iamthewalrus,
I think your missing the point also..... Daniel's 70 weeks isn't consecutive but 3 seperate periods, each has it's own starting and ending point.
Decree of building walls to walls built (7 weeks)
walls built to Messiah cut off (62 weeks)
confirm(strengthen) covenant to spiritual restoration (1 week)

It doesn't say 70 weeks from Decree to build walls to spiritaul restoration. Why in every passage that gives a time frame does it give a full amount, but in this particular passage it is split up in 3 different parts?

Let's look at it again:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The prophecy here is pre-determined...70 weeks...at the end of it annointing the most Holy...Jesus.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Seven weeks from the time this decree is determined by Gabriel, Jerusalem is restored. 62 weeks from the end of the seven weeks, Jesus comes on the scene.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And after....meaning after the the 69 weeks...that would only be in the 70th week, Jesus is crucified. The People of the Prince is no doubt whatsoever, Titus. But let's look at the words used.

That shall come:

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... 0935&t=kjv

Shall destroy

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... 7843&t=kjv

These are future tense words of what is going to transpire within the 40 year probationary period, God gave the Jews for Christ plea to forgive them.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now this is the meat of the subject, however, after much study, I have come to the conclusion that this decree was indeed broken up.
He, is Jesus, in my mind, and many other so it seems, but that is irrelevant. He confirmed the covenant with all of us for dying...the covenant promised to Abraham. You can look back into the thread for scriptural confirmation from both Mrs. B and myself. The subject of this whole decree is Christ. Look at verse 24 again..."to anoint the Most Holy".
However, verse 27, confirms that it won't start back up until the last portion of everyone call the Tribulation.
"....and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." this speaks of the remaining 3 and 1/2 years to be fulfilled.

I have posted enough scripture to back all of this up and so has Mrs. B, I understand that if no one gets it, but I do.

Here is another that will help understand

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Like I have said before, it doesn't affect our salvation, because we all know how Christ comes back and how much He does for us, and we will all know the AOD for sure, and from that time we know it is exactly 1290 days confirmed in both Daniel and Revelation. At the end of that is 1335 according to Daniel 12, and blessed are those who make it that far, because those that do, deserve a special prize.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

goo goo g'joob

[Sue-M]

IamtheWalrus,

The problem is that what has been decreed for Israel during those 70 weeks has not been completed.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I don't see all of prophecy "sealed up" or finished.
I don't see everlasting righteousness finished. The Jews are not saved.
And Jesus has not been anointed by the Jews. They don't recognize Him as Messiah.

[IamtheWalrus]

IamtheWalrus,

The problem is that what has been decreed for Israel during those 70 weeks has not been completed.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I don't see all of prophecy "sealed up" or finished.
I don't see everlasting righteousness finished. The Jews are not saved.
And Jesus has not been anointed by the Jews. They don't recognize Him as Messiah.

I understand that. that is why I concluded in my last statement that I don't see it being completed. However, I do see the first half of the 70th week completed, just not the last half. And at the second coming, the jews will see their messiah, that is for sure. Thus, sealing up the prophecy.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now this is the meat of the subject, however, after much study, I have come to the conclusion that this decree was indeed broken up.
He, is Jesus, in my mind, and many other so it seems, but that is irrelevant. He confirmed the covenant with all of us for dying...the covenant promised to Abraham. You can look back into the thread for scriptural confirmation from both Mrs. B and myself. The subject of this whole decree is Christ. Look at verse 24 again..."to anoint the Most Holy".
However, verse 27, confirms that it won't start back up until the last portion of everyone call the Tribulation.
"....and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." this speaks of the remaining 3 and 1/2 years to be fulfilled.

I have posted enough scripture to back all of this up and so has Mrs. B, I understand that if no one gets it, but I do.

Here is another that will help understand

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Like I have said before, it doesn't affect our salvation, because we all know how Christ comes back and how much He does for us, and we will all know the AOD for sure, and from that time we know it is exactly 1290 days confirmed in both Daniel and Revelation. At the end of that is 1335 according to Daniel 12, and blessed are those who make it that far, because those that do, deserve a special prize.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

[savedbygrace]

Another point of view which may relate to the 70 weeks prophecy, is the fulfillment of the feasts of Israel. When Jesus came the first time, He fulfilled the first 4 feasts of Passover, Unleavened bread, Firstfruits, and the Feast of Weeks. All of these are spring feasts, and each of these has a specific meaning.

As you may already know from studying the feasts, there is a long gap between the first four spring feasts (which Jesus fulfilled), and the last three feasts in the fall (Jesus will surely fulfill these at his second coming). Approximately 3 to 4 months between the spring and fall feasts. This represents the harvest time, when the workers are in the field. This is symbolic of the church age, between the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ.

This is also in parallel with the gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel 9!

I believe there IS a gap between the 69th and 70th week. This gap is approximately 2000 years presently. This is the age of grace, or the church age of believers. It fits in the overall theme God has shown us in the Word. When Jesus's second coming (parousia) begins, it will likely be at the feast of trumpets. And so shall the rest of the fall feasts be fulfilled at his return, concluding with Armageddon at the end of the 70th week.

[Ready1]

Good explanation, savedbygrace. From a Jewish perspective here is an OT scripture which 'alludes' to the same thing.

Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

[Sue-M]

IamtheWalrus,

The problem is that what has been decreed for Israel during those 70 weeks has not been completed.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I don't see all of prophecy "sealed up" or finished.
I don't see everlasting righteousness finished. The Jews are not saved.
And Jesus has not been anointed by the Jews. They don't recognize Him as Messiah.

I understand that. that is why I concluded in my last statement that I don't see it being completed. However, I do see the first half of the 70th week completed, just not the last half. And at the second coming, the jews will see their messiah, that is for sure. Thus, sealing up the prophecy.

IamtheWalrus, you want someone to give you scripture where God has given a prophecy and then stopped the prophecy and then started it up again. Okay. But, here you are saying that, what God has said WILL happen during the 70 weeks prophecied by Daniel, "you don't see it being completed". So, I ask you, do you know of any prophecy that God has given that has never come to pass or that will never be completed?

You said above that the first half of the 70th week is completed, but not the last half. So, you, yourself, believe in a break in time in this prophecy. You, yourself, don't see the 70 weeks happening completely without a break in time.

Another thing, you are saying that at the second coming, prophecy will be sealed up. Okay. So, what you are saying is that these 70 weeks were not completed all together. You are saying that there is more to be done concerning what has been decreed for the Jews during this 70 week period. So, again, you are saying that there is a break in this timeframe of 70 weeks.

There has to be a break because what has been decreed has not been completed.

[IamtheWalrus]

IamtheWalrus,

The problem is that what has been decreed for Israel during those 70 weeks has not been completed.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I don't see all of prophecy "sealed up" or finished.
I don't see everlasting righteousness finished. The Jews are not saved.
And Jesus has not been anointed by the Jews. They don't recognize Him as Messiah.

I understand that. that is why I concluded in my last statement that I don't see it being completed. However, I do see the first half of the 70th week completed, just not the last half. And at the second coming, the jews will see their messiah, that is for sure. Thus, sealing up the prophecy.

IamtheWalrus, you want someone to give you scripture where God has given a prophecy and then stopped the prophecy and then started it up again. Okay. But, here you are saying that, what God has said WILL happen during the 70 weeks prophecied by Daniel, "you don't see it being completed". So, I ask you, do you know of any prophecy that God has given that has never come to pass or that will never be completed?

You said above that the first half of the 70th week is completed, but not the last half. So, you, yourself, believe in a break in time in this prophecy. You, yourself, don't see the 70 weeks happening completely without a break in time.

Another thing, you are saying that at the second coming, prophecy will be sealed up. Okay. So, what you are saying is that these 70 weeks were not completed all together. You are saying that there is more to be done concerning what has been decreed for the Jews during this 70 week period. So, again, you are saying that there is a break in this timeframe of 70 weeks.

There has to be a break because what has been decreed has not been completed.

Yes Sue, that is exactly what I am saying, based on the last sentence of the prophecy. The Prophecy has been broken up to involve a break, which was already stated by Gabriel when the prophecy was being given to Daniel.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I was wrong in my assumption that the prophecy had been completely fulfilled. I admit that, it wasn't the first, and it definitely won't be the last time.

However, I still am convinced that the entire prophecy revolves around Christ, and the interjection of the prince in Verse 26, is referring to Titus alone. Yet, that cannot be continued into Verse 27 and relating it to the "he".

Just because it isn't capitalized, doesn't mean it isn't talking about God or Christ. I believe that was already covered in the first page of this thread. I forget who said it, I think it was Salty, but nonetheless, it proved that anyway.

The entire prophecy is about the Jews and Christ, with a side note about Titus and the destruction of the Temple, etc.

But if you indeed read the first Verse, it covers the subject of the whole entire prophecy, "To anoint the Most Holy", which is Christ.

[Sue-M]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (New International Version)

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

-----------------------------

This is one example of why there will be a physical temple. And why the A/C will go into the temple and declare himself to be God.

------------------------------

Matthew 24:15-25 (New International Version)

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.

18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
---------------------------

In 175 BC, Antiochus 4 Epiphanes put a statute of Zeus in the Holy of Holies and killed a pig and splattered the blood of the pig all around in the Holy of Holies. Then the Maccabee boys started a revolt against Antiochus 4 and they were successful. They removed the statute of Zeus and cleaned and rededicated the Temple. This is about how they get their holiday today called Hanukkah. This was all before Jesus. So, during Jesus day, the Jews knew all about the desecration of the Temple and the abomination by Antiochus 4. But (in Matthew 24), Jesus was talking in future tense, not past tense. So, we know, that what Antiochus 4 did in 175 BC, will be done again. Antiochus 4 was a "type" of the Anti-Christ.

Now, one thing that Antiochus 4 did in 175 BC, was he caused the sacrifice and offerings to stop. Again, we are expecting this from a "future Anti-Christ".

What Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24, gives us clear understanding that there will be another one (the Anti-Christ) who will do just as Antiochus 4 did. See, Jesus has told us ahead of time (verse 25.

[Sue-M]

Yes Sue, that is exactly what I am saying, based on the last sentence of the prophecy. The Prophecy has been broken up to involve a break, which was already stated by Gabriel when the prophecy was being given to Daniel.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I was wrong in my assumption that the prophecy had been completely fulfilled. I admit that, it wasn't the first, and it definitely won't be the last time.

Okay, so you admit that there has to be some kind of break in this 70 week prophecy.

However, I still am convinced that the entire prophecy revolves around Christ, and the interjection of the prince in Verse 26, is referring to Titus alone. Yet, that cannot be continued into Verse 27 and relating it to the "he".

Just because it isn't capitalized, doesn't mean it isn't talking about God or Christ. I believe that was already covered in the first page of this thread. I forget who said it, I think it was Salty, but nonetheless, it proved that anyway.

The entire prophecy is about the Jews and Christ, with a side note about Titus and the destruction of the Temple, etc.

But if you indeed read the first Verse, it covers the subject of the whole entire prophecy, "To anoint the Most Holy", which is Christ.

Well, Titus was Rome. And we are right now seeing with our very eyes the re-birth of Rome. If someone (a little horn maybe) comes up and causes the sacrifices to stop, then, this would complete this prophecy. Because, Rome was never destroyed from the outside. Rome kind of fizzeled away from within. Kind of like what USA is doing today. So, really Rome never went away. And this goes along with the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and the legs of iron and the ten toes of iron and clay. The toes still have the "iron" of Rome. Same metal.

Just because it's all not clear today, doesn't mean it won't be clear soon.

[Mrs. B]

Putting the pig on the altar has nothing to do with this......This happened before Jesus....and it is just a way for the devil to brag about his power.....when the Jews were fallen away from the Law.....


The Temple today is the Body of the Church.....the Born AGAIN Believers.....

Paul wrote to the Gentiles in Corinth....

I Corin. 6:19......WHAT? kNOW YE NOT....that your body is THE TEMPLE of the Holy Ghost.....which Is In You,
which ye have of God.....and Ye Are Not Your Own?

20.....For ye are bought with a Price:
therefore GLORIFY GOD IN Your Body.....and In YOUE Spirit....Which are God's.....


Our Bodies are the Temple ......where the Holy Spirit dwells.....

II Corin. 6:12......Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:
for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?
and what communion hath light with darkness?

15.....And what concord hath Christ with Belial?
or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Now notice this.....

16......And What Agreement hath the TEMPLE OF GOD WITH IDOLS?
FOR YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD:
as God hath said........I will dwell in them....
I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and Walk in them;
And I will Be Their God, and they Shall Be My People....

17.....Wherefore Come out from among them, and be ye Separate, saith the Lord,
and touch not the unclean thing; and I will Receive You,

18.....And Will be a FATHER unto You, and Ye shall be MY SONS and Daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.....


Jesus said.....If it were Possible.....Even the very Elect Would be Deceived....
He is talking about the Church.......being Deceived....
following another Christ......believing another Doctrine or Gospel...
Today we see it...
We are Saved by Jesus Only....
Not Church membership....not church attendance....Not even the Church Saves you....
It is Jesus and Faith in Him......and being Lead by His Holy Spirit....
We are THE CHURCH and the church does not save Jesus saves..

Satan's Plan is to invade the Churches.....and preach another Gospel......and present another Christ....teaching mans Gospel and Not Gods'......

the A/c Spirit is in the Churches to day.....seated as Christ.....seated in the Temple....the bodies of false teachers....and believers...
The Church is fallen away from the Truth of the Gospel and are Preaching another Christ....and deceiving people...

I Corin. 3:9.....For we are labourers together with God:
Ye are God's Husbandry, ye are God's Building....

16....Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God Dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the Temple of God, Him shall God destroy for the Temple of God is Holy,
Which Temple Ye Are.....

Paul Knew this and understood this......God lives in us the Believer

when Paul wrote...
II Thess 2:3....Let No Man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall NOT Come, except there come a Falling Away First....
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of Perdition.....

4.....Who opposeth and Exalteth Himself above all that is Called God,\or that is Worshipped;
so that he as God.....Sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing Himself that he is God...

5.....Remember ye not....that I told you these things?

6....And Now ye know what withholdeth that he might be Revealed in his time.....

Notice...

7.....FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY Work;
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....

8......And then shall THAT Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His Mouth.....
(with His Words)

Rev. 17:5......And upon her forehead was a Name Written,
MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.....

This spirit of antichrist started..... in the beginning of the church....
John 4:1.....Beloved....believe Not every Spirit, But Try the spirits whether they are of God:
Because MANY False prophets are gone out into the world....

2.....Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
Every spirit....Every Spirit that Confesseth that Jesus Christ is Come in the Flesh is OF GOD......
(not what a persons says......but what their spirit confesseth or says)

3......Every Spirit that confesseth Not that Jesus Christ is Come in the Flesh is Not of God:
and this is THAT SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST......wherefore ye have heard that it should come;
and even NOW Already is it in the world....

4.....Ye Are of God, Little Children, and have overcome them:
Because Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.....


Satan's plan is to take over the Church....by the a/c spirit which is working today....

We Must Love Truth......
Jesus said.....I Am the Way, and The Truth, and the Life.....no man comes to the Father except through me.....
We must not be deceived.....



In Daniel...
Dan. 7:23....And he (a/c) shall Speak Great Words.....against the Most High...
and shall wear out the Saints of the Most High,
and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given unto his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.....

Change Laws......change Gods Laws....
Adultry is Popular
Murder is popular
stealing is popular
Lying is popular
Un Truth is Popular.
godly ness is popullar

Dan. 8:11....Yea, he (a/c) magnified himself even to the Prince of the Hosts, and by him the Daily Sacrifice was taken away.....(the blood sacrifice taken away because evil abides and sin is fulll) and the place of his (a/c) is cast down...

12...And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgrression, and it cast down THE TRUTH TO the Ground:
and it practised, and prospered.....
Un truth becomes more popular then THE TRUTH....


Notice....
13.....Then I heard One Saint Speaking, and another Saint said unto that Certain Saint which spake,
HOW LONG SHALL BE THE VISION, How long shall be the vision Concerning the Daily Sacrifice, and the Transgression of Desolation....to give both the Sanctuary and the Host to be Trodden Under Foot?

14....And He said unto Me....Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
THEN SHALL THE SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED......(OR Justified)......

23....And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the Transgressor are come to the full (our sins are full) a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24....And his Power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: (satans power) and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise and shall destroy the mighty and the Holy People...(the church or true believers)

25....And through his Policy also he shall Cause Craft to Prosper in his hand;
and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and BY PEACE....shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of Princes; (Jesus)
but he shall be broken without hand (by the Spoken Word)

Paul writes...II Thess. 2:8....And than shall the Wicked be Revealed, Whom the Lord shall Consum ...
With the Spirit of His Mouth...and shall destroy with the Brightness of His coming....

9.....Even him....whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, in them that perish; Because they Received Not the Love of the Truth, that they Might be saved...
And for this cause...God shall send them strong delusions, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be ****** who believed not the Truth...But have pleasusre in unrightiousness....
But...we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, Brethren...Beloved of the Lord,
Because God hath from the Beginning Chosen you to Salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit....and Belief of THE TRUTH.....


Satan PLAN IS TO take over the body of Christ...the church.....deceving if possible the very elect.....


Jesus said......He that had ears.....let Him hear what the Spirit is Saying to the Church.....


bb



(notice the a/c spirit is already at work....in Pauls day and John's day)

[Sue-M]

Mrs. B.

The prophecy in Daniel 9 is directed to the Jews, not the church. You have to realize that the Jews are not saved. They do not have the Holy Spirit living inside of them and therefore, their temple is not inside of them. Their eyes will not be opened until sometime after the A/C is revealed. And this is why they are continuing to this day to try to rebuild the Temple.

You are trying to put the Jews and the Church into one category and you have to understand that there is a separation between the two. The Jews have not been grafted back in yet. But, they will. But, they are not today and they were not in 70 AD when the second temple was destroyed by Titus.

Also, putting the pig at the altar has everything to do with this. Like I explained, Antiochus 4 Epiphanes was a "type" or a "shadow" of the Anti-Christ that is to come. There are many "types" and "shadows" given to us in the Bible. This is not anything new. Actually, God told man about the Anti-Christ way back in Genesis 3:15. So, we were told about the Anti-Christ way before Jesus. Now, the reason that this has a connection with Daniel is because of what Jesus said in Matthew 24. Jesus was referring to the abomination of desolation. At that time, the Jews knew about this as referring to Antiochus 4 Epiphanes. This was and still is a huge event for them, so big, in fact, they created a National Holiday from the events that happened with Antiochus 4. But, because Jesus was speaking in future tense (in Matthew 24), this means that we need to look for another type of Antiochus 4 Epiphanes to come, which is the Anti-Christ to come. And Jesus connects the two by His statement in Matthew 24. Jesus connects the "he" in Daniel 9 with what Antiochus 4 Epiphanes did. And Jesus also warns the (non-believing, non-saved) Jews that when they see what Antiochus 4 did happen again, run to the mountains.

[IamtheWalrus]

Sue-M,

I think you are missing the point that is being made concerning the link between Matt 24:15 and Christ reference to Daniel and what he spoke of.

In Dan 9:24-27, the phrases "Abomination of Desolation" or "Abomination that maketh desolate" is not found.
All you see in those verses are "Abomination" and "desolate". The subjects and verb are directed differently to what Daniel says in the chapters 11 and 12. Here is chapter 9, the abomination are overspreading, and because of those abominations, someone (here we feel it is Christ) makes these sacrifices desolate. And following, until the consummation, the marriage between Christ and the church, cuz that is what "consummation" is synonymous with, and what has been determined concerning this prophecy, shall be, future tense, be inflicted upon the desolate, the Jews and unsaved. The Chapters 11 and 12 are directly dealing with and actual event, that is known as the AOD, whom AEIV did, which is referenced in Matt 24:15 to a future event as well.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ was referring to Dan 11:31-37 and 12:11.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].

Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days.

Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

Dan 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

[IamtheWalrus]

Dan. 8:11....Yea, he (a/c) magnified himself even to the Prince of the Hosts, and by him the Daily Sacrifice was taken away.....(the blood sacrifice taken away because evil abides and sin is fulll) and the place of his (a/c) is cast down...

12...And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgrression, and it cast down THE TRUTH TO the Ground:
and it practised, and prospered.....
Un truth becomes more popular then THE TRUTH....

This alone confirms Dan 9:24-27 is solely speaking of Jesus Christ. I just don't understand why it is so hard to see.
The false doctrines, whether or not they are miniscule or at large, they are false, asnd that is precisle what Satan wants to teach, and deceive us that are saved.

[sands]

Keep in mind that you guys are debating and this is not the debate forum.

[Sue-M]

Keep in mind that you guys are debating and this is not the debate forum.

Sands, I think it's beyond hope here. It's already a debate.

[Mrs. B]

question about 7 year peace treaty......

Let's see if we can bring this up to date......bb