US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Wed May 30, 2018 5:40 pm

shorttribber wrote:I have since I've been on the board mark :mrgreen: if you chose to debate it, that's ok, but I'm not starting over.
mark s wrote:Show me where in Scripture that every time a day is mentioned, it should be understood as a year.


Hi shorttribber,

I'd have to say not.

If there were a passage, you'd point to it immediately. I interpret Scripture according to Scripture, I define Scriptural terminology by Scripture, and I see no reason to depart from that.

Show me first where I have Ever said, "every time a day is mentioned, it should be understood as a year."

Because I have not Ever said that, you will not find where I have said that.....so I thought I would save you the time of looking :mrgreen:


Show me where in this place it says it is to be understood that way. Because if it does not say that, than this can only be describes as isogesis.

I have said however, that in Some Cases, or Places it CAN be understood as a Day for a Year prophecy.
I have also said that in some cases there could be BOTH a Day for a year application AND an Actual literal Day application....Two Fold or Double Layered prophecy.


"Could be" makes for an interesting hermeneutic in my opinion.


mark s wrote:Hosea, wonderful passage, preaches well, as they say, and may well mean exactly what you say. But even were it so, what bearing does this have on Daniel? We can claim the Bible contains parables, and we would be correct. But If we go on to claim that all the Bible is a parable, we are incorrect. Do you see how this is the same thing?

It does mean exactly as I am saying. There is no argument from silence in view here...it is plainly written.


It does not say that. It's such a simple thing.

And I would not be surprised that it might mean that. Even though it does not say that.

But what bearing does that have on the interpretation of Daniel's visions?

Why don't you prove otherwise mark?


Prove a negative?

What bearing does it have on Daniel? It is prophetic, do you not see the resemblance in that kind of writing?
It is obviously Not a parable mark.


Another interesting hermeneutic, "this passage resembles that passage, and in that passage, it seems to me that the 2 days is 2000 years, and the 3rd day is another 1000 years" . . . am I tracking OK so far? . . . "so then in Daniel, 2300 days is 2300 x 1000 years" . . . but now I don't think I'm tracking anymore, because this isn't what you arrived at, right? That's over 2 million years, if I'm looking at it right.

I don't really see even a parallel.
mark s wrote:What is true for one place, as stated, does not make it true for another place when it is not so stated.

Well that's quite convenient to say, but has little merit as far as I'm concerned. I think where it IS clearly stated IN Bible prophecy, we can be sure there are the Same Kinds of Examples to be found in Other Bible prophecy.....spoken by the Same God who changes not.


Convenient? Or Correct?

Every place wine is mentioned, it's the blood of the new covenant? That's where this kind of thinking leads, doesn't it? No matter how many capital letters, the fact is, we can't use word or idea association as a Bible hermeneutic. At least, I follow a much more stringent standard. I have to see it actually in the text.

mark s wrote:Show me in Scripture where days equal years, where years equal 1000 years, where days equal 1000's of years, any such.

I just gave you a very clear example in Hosea, so....


So . . . then it is over 2 million years, right? 2,300,000 years. 2 days = 2000 years, 2300 days = 2,300,000 years.
mark s wrote:You keep writing things like: You can believe as you do, and that's ok...

And I would repeat the same thing here....believe as you choose about Hosea...yet it is quite clearly written.
mark s wrote:I believe the Bible. So, I appreciate your permission to believe the Bible.

It's not up to me, I've not given any such permission, nor can I. I have simply acknowledged your liberty to do as you choose.


Well, thank you then!
mark s wrote:You've pointed out that in another place, where there was a specific instruction, days represented years. But in this place, in Daniel, there is no such instruction, so it leaves me with a simple choice to make.

I can't find that kind of instruction in Hosea either.


I'm talking about Ezekiel. If you want to rely on Hosea for your hermeneutic, we're back to the 2 million + years.

mark s wrote: So many people have for so many years read this and claim that. It says this, but it means that. I don't interpret the Bible that kind of way. That's just me.


Acts 7
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

mark s wrote: It says this, but it means that.


Am I being too blunt?
the truth is.......
Is 66
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

mark s wrote: So many people have for so many years read this and claim that. It says this, but it means that. I don't interpret the Bible that kind of way. That's just me.


I think you do interpret the Bible that kind of way sometimes mark.....this is blunt...yes....

But you better know, I love you to pieces in Christ dear brother...

:hugs:


I'm sorry, but I'm going to need to know more what you are thinking rather that simply posting some verses and making the assertion that I intentionally ignore the plain reading and understanding of Scripture in favor of something else.

That is to me intellectual dishonesty, and deserves more support, without which, is simply Ad Hominem.

Deep sigh!

Perhaps you are simply looking at where God is using similes. He does that. But doesn't mean we get to apply them where God isn't.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 30, 2018 5:59 pm

mark s wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm going to need to know more what you are thinking rather that simply posting some verses and making the assertion that I intentionally ignore the plain reading and understanding of Scripture in favor of something else.That is to me intellectual dishonesty, and deserves more support, without which, is simply Ad Hominem.Deep sigh!Perhaps you are simply looking at where God is using similes. He does that. But doesn't mean we get to apply them where God isn't.Much love!Mark


Ok, i'll try a different one then....

Ezk 43
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.

21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for
a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.


Yet those who speak of a temple future say that temple sacrifices will only be FOR a memorial For sin....

In the above text it plainly says that they are FOR sin...not a Memorial of them...


what say you here.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Let me try another text.....

Rev 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

A different word would have been used to "Count" the people, as some have suggested...but is that honest mark?

How was John to Literally Measure the worshipers WITH THE REED?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there seems to be no good answer or any attempt at it...why is that?

And to what purpose would the "counting" serve?

The Measuring harkens back to Zechariah mark...and a Measuring of the Stature of the Worshipers in "The Spirit".
The Trueness is the intent of the Measuring, as in the using of the Plumline...to Find out what is True and what is Not true in the Worshippers in His True Temple.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 30, 2018 8:47 pm

mark s wrote:Every place wine is mentioned, it's the blood of the new covenant? That's where this kind of thinking leads, doesn't it? No matter how many capital letters, the fact is, we can't use word or idea association as a Bible hermeneutic. At least, I follow a much more stringent standard. I have to see it actually in the text.


Really...I know you see the rapture after the sixth seal....where is that stated in the text?

Comparing scripture with scripture is what we all do mark....including you
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 7:48 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm going to need to know more what you are thinking rather that simply posting some verses and making the assertion that I intentionally ignore the plain reading and understanding of Scripture in favor of something else.

That is to me intellectual dishonesty, and deserves more support, without which, is simply Ad Hominem.

Deep sigh!

Perhaps you are simply looking at where God is using similes. He does that. But doesn't mean we get to apply them where God isn't.

Much love!
Mark



Ok, i'll try a different one then....


I'd actually prefer that you answer this one. Why would you not? Why skip around? Why not tell me how the passage quoted supports your assertion of Daniel's days?

You have, for all intents and purposes, implied that I am intellectually dishonest, knowing using a double standard, and I'd like to see your support for that.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby GodsStudent on Thu May 31, 2018 7:59 am

mark s wrote:
GodsStudent wrote:Agreed, ST.
I am one of those who would love for the pretrib to be correct, but every time I've studied these scriptures, my understanding and my gut (spirit?) do not see and hear what so many in the pretrib camp see and hear. Like you, I understand that we will be here for the AOD.


Hi GS

If you were interested, I would be happy to share with you why I am convinced that the church - us - cannot be here for the AOD, or even before that. I do not use the typical arguments, most of them to me do not hold water. However, I believe there are rather emphatic reasons by which we can know this.

Again, if you are interested.

Much love!
mark



Hi Mark:

I am interested. It's an issue or topic I dont have total peace with (as is the case with some others, I know).
Can you start a new thread to open this discussion, so as to not derail this one?

I am hoping we can have a mature discussion, without anger, which is an emotion of pride....and not one I like to see or display. Also, the pride and rudeness derails a sincere discussion to the point that it becomes about the author of the posts instead of about what scripture says about a matter. (just puttin this out there for all of us to consider).... :mrgreen:
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 8:10 am

Hi GS, Look for it in the "Pre-Trib Only" forum.

We will have a very peaceable discussion.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 9:20 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm going to need to know more what you are thinking rather that simply posting some verses and making the assertion that I intentionally ignore the plain reading and understanding of Scripture in favor of something else.That is to me intellectual dishonesty, and deserves more support, without which, is simply Ad Hominem.Deep sigh!Perhaps you are simply looking at where God is using similes. He does that. But doesn't mean we get to apply them where God isn't.Much love!Mark


Ok, i'll try a different one then....

Ezk 43
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.

21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for
a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.


Yet those who speak of a temple future say that temple sacrifices will only be FOR a memorial For sin....

In the above text it plainly says that they are FOR sin...not a Memorial of them...


what say you here.



To give the reader their due, though you do not answer mine, I'll answer yours . . . except . . . what actually is your question to me? "What say you here?"

About whether sacrifices will be offered, and for what? What does the text say?

About what other say? Ask them.

Personally, I'd suggest pulling back for a broader context, considering this temple command was to be given to the exiles in Babylon, that when they saw it, they'd be ashamed of themselves, and keep this law of the temple. Go home and build it!

Ezekiel 43:10-11 (ESV)

“As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan. And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out.


It sounds to me that God wanted them to go back to Israel, build the new temple, and offer the sacrifices. Does it sound differently to you?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 9:27 am

shorttribber wrote:Let me try another text.....

Rev 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

A different word would have been used to "Count" the people, as some have suggested...but is that honest mark?

How was John to Literally Measure the worshipers WITH THE REED?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there seems to be no good answer or any attempt at it...why is that?

And to what purpose would the "counting" serve?

The Measuring harkens back to Zechariah mark...and a Measuring of the Stature of the Worshipers in "The Spirit".
The Trueness is the intent of the Measuring, as in the using of the Plumline...to Find out what is True and what is Not true in the Worshippers in His True Temple.


Hi ST,

I'd have to ask the same question. What bearing does this have on the Daniel days?

If you want to do an exogesis on this passage that would be something on it's own. I'm asking for support that the 2300 days in Daniel, that, though it says "days", it actually means "years". That is your assertion, correct? I'm asking for support of that assertion. Something in the text that says these days should be understood not as days, but as years.

But now I have a different question, and I really truly want for you to not just ignore this one.

What do you mean when you say, above, "but is that honest mark?" I don't know how this is meant.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 9:43 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Every place wine is mentioned, it's the blood of the new covenant? That's where this kind of thinking leads, doesn't it? No matter how many capital letters, the fact is, we can't use word or idea association as a Bible hermeneutic. At least, I follow a much more stringent standard. I have to see it actually in the text.


Really...I know you see the rapture after the sixth seal....where is that stated in the text?

Comparing scripture with scripture is what we all do mark....including you


Ok, you are really giving me the impression that you are working hard at making me out to be an hypocrite.

Why do I see the rapture there. Your implication is that I don't see it in the text, and yet claim that I do, and therefore lie. Is this what you are saying?

Comparing Scripture with Scripture does not to me appear to be what "we all do".

But I'll be beginning a thread on the pre-trib rapture, so if you actually want to see my reasoning you will be able.

But again, shorttribber, what bearing does this have on the Daniel days???

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 12:29 pm

mark s wrote:Hi GS, Look for it in the "Pre-Trib Only" forum.

We will have a very peaceable discussion.


Hi Godsstudent,

See Here for OP

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 31, 2018 1:42 pm

Dearest mark,
My brother , I'm sorry that I have in any way made you to feel as a hypocrite. I know absolutely that you are not, and that you are very honest about what you believe the scriptures to be saying.

There are too many points to answer any further at this time...I do not have an abundance of it currently.

We should let all the unanswered questions on either side go unanswered and let it rest.

I love you very much, as I do the whole family here...and if I have grieved any others on this thread because of my bluntness or tone, I'm also sorry in that too.

Now, I must tend to other things the many....


Blessings to all,
ST

I'm not leaving the forum of course...just need to spend time on other things instead of posting.


I will be reading, and posting a little still
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 3:24 pm

shorttribber wrote:Dearest mark,
My brother , I'm sorry that I have in any way made you to feel as a hypocrite.


Hi Shorttribber,

I'd sure appreciate were you to pay a little closer attention to my words. It may enhance our discussions.

:wink:

What I said was:

Ok, you are really giving me the impression that you are working hard at making me out to be an hypocrite./quote]

This is much different. One is a statement of my feelings, the other a statement of my impression of what you are doing.

You've turned it around as if it were about my feelings, while conveniently sidestepping what I actually said.

This is communication?

There are too many points to answer any further at this time...I do not have an abundance of it currently.


I was not personally anticipating an answer. I don't believe there is one.

We should let all the unanswered questions on either side go unanswered and let it rest.


Yes, I'm sure that would be very satisfactory to some, but what about to those who are trying to follow all of "these days equal those years, but these days equal those millennia, . . ." I think clarity is in order.

For the record I'll be happy to continue to address my assertions made should any have any questions or thoughts.

But to be very clear, when challenged on the point, there is no answer given by which we can know as a Scriptural truth that 2300 days in Daniel equals 2300 years, and the same holds true for any other unsupported assertion.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 31, 2018 5:10 pm

mark s wrote:But to be very clear, when challenged on the point, there is no answer given by which we can know as a Scriptural truth that 2300 days in Daniel equals 2300 years, and the same holds true for any other unsupported assertion.

:oldman: Just one more thing....said the lil ole man with the shaky lil voice....

I did not say that the 2,300 days represented 2,300 years. I said that it has One fulfillment that Was 2,300 days (actual DAYS) already, by Antiochus.
And that it has another layered, dual fulfillment that has been Partially fulfilled.... Based on the Evening and Morning description of those days (As Actual Literal Days also).

Now I will end it here.

blessings and love
:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 5:20 pm

shorttribber wrote:
I'm convinced that that particular set of days has found at least the Primary fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanies.

Although you will also find that set (2,3000)as a day for a year also


. . . also . . .

It is a year for a day prophecy that is nearly finished....it began when the Foundation of the Dome of the Rock was laid.... very nearly 1,335 years ago....


I thought you were doing a year for a day thing, looks like in both instances. But you're not?

:dunno:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 31, 2018 5:40 pm

mark s wrote:ST said:
I'm convinced that that particular set of days has found at least the Primary fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanies.
Although you will also find that set (2,3000)as a day for a year also


You are correct in that I did say that... and I was mistaken....I was linking that as a day for a year based on one of the links I provided that went I depth on the year for a day idea.
They did not include that 2,300 day period in there calculations though....so I did say that in error.

Hopefully there has not been much confusion based on my saying that.

The one link I shared about the day for a year idea has much scripture to back their words...but they did not include the 2,300 day period.

So I was wrong to think or say they had also included that set of days.

mark s wrote:It is a year for a day prophecy that is nearly finished....it began when the Foundation of the Dome of the Rock was laid.... very nearly 1,335 years ago....I thought you were doing a year for a day thing, looks like in both instances. But you're not?


I actually only look on the 1,335 days as the year for a day idea.

sorry for the mixup on my part.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu May 31, 2018 6:09 pm

ST,

You see the 1335 days as years
But the 2300 days as days

That doesn't sound very consistent. It seems more like changing the meaning to fit a theory.

I think it's fine to consider different theories but I would hate to see people doubt and disregard prophecy when it finally does come to pass. When the temple is rebuilt and the 70th week starts, that's going to be a HUGE sign for the unsaved. And why does God give signs? So that people will believe! How great would it be to see that in our lifetime and how sad it would be to see people scoff in disbelief.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:23 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:ST said:
I'm convinced that that particular set of days has found at least the Primary fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanies.
Although you will also find that set (2,3000)as a day for a year also


You are correct in that I did say that... and I was mistaken....I was linking that as a day for a year based on one of the links I provided that went I depth on the year for a day idea.
They did not include that 2,300 day period in there calculations though....so I did say that in error.

Hopefully there has not been much confusion based on my saying that.

The one link I shared about the day for a year idea has much scripture to back their words...but they did not include the 2,300 day period.

So I was wrong to think or say they had also included that set of days.

mark s wrote:It is a year for a day prophecy that is nearly finished....it began when the Foundation of the Dome of the Rock was laid.... very nearly 1,335 years ago....I thought you were doing a year for a day thing, looks like in both instances. But you're not?


I actually only look on the 1,335 days as the year for a day idea.

sorry for the mixup on my part.


Thank you, ST,

So then, the same question applies to the 1335 days. How can we know as a Scriptural fact that these are years? And as EC pointed out, all the more so when this becomes an inconsistent application?

Much love!
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:32 pm

Hello,

May I be permitted to clarify what has been claimed I have previously stated concerning a day = a thousand years.

We need to establish the time frame reference being used in scripture. If "the time frame reference" is God reference frame, then a day is around 1,000 years in duration. In fact it is as long as the maximum number that can be counted on those hands with good dexterity, and is a "little longer" in duration than a thousand years.

In the Book of Daniel, we need to be consistent. If Daniel 9:24-27 is seen as weeks of years then we have 70 weeks x 7 days = 490 years, in verse 24. However, it seems to me that many push the imagery hard to fit verse 25 plus verse 27 into an understanding of 490 years whereas they are three independent and separate prophesies and speak of three distinct separate time periods where there is an overlap in time for verse 24 and verse 25 where both prophesies have different starting points and finishing points.. Then verse 26a, i.e. the first half of verse 26, references an event that occurs after the completion of the events spoken about in verse 25, while verse 26b, i.e. the second half of verse 26, speaks of an event in this prophecy, on the face of the earth where desolation and devastation occurs to the nation of Israel, and where the turmoil on the earth is mirrored in the heavens for a period of around 2,000 years which ends when Satan and the other wicked fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the beasts of Daniel 7 and the Little Horn are case out of heaven down to the earth to be imprisoned in the Abyss for many days before their final punishment.

The Daniel 8 prophecy of 2,300 evenings and mornings, is a reference to 2,300 full 24 hr days and can be understood in keeping with Daniel 9 as referencing a period of 2,300 years where the heathen kings of the earth will trample the Sanctuary of God for period of 2,300 years before they are judged and punished. Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us that the kings of the earth will be judged at the same time as the wicked fallen heavenly hosts are judged in heaven and that both the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth and their armies will be imprisoned in the abyss together.

Now in Hosea 6:1-3 gives us this picture which is translated as: -
Hosea 6:1-3: - 6:1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
and this imagery is also reflected in the following passage although the time reference is different, but has the same duration length: -
Lamentation 5:19-22: - 19 You, O Lord, remain forever;
Your throne from generation to generation.
20 Why do You forget us forever,
And forsake us for so long a time?
21 Turn us back to You, O Lord, and we will be restored;
Renew our days as of old,
22 Unless You have utterly rejected us,
And are very angry with us!

Both passages are speaking of the same time period when God will and does walk contrary to the Israelites.

Sadly, it all comes down to our individual understanding, and we must live with the manner in which we interpet scripture and be prepared to repent of our often miss guided understanding of the Word of God.

Is my understanding any better than Marks or ST? In my eyes, yes, just as Mark and ST possibly have the same understanding of their respective understandings of the End Times, they possibly believe that their respective understand is a better way in which to consider the scriptures.


What I contend is that we must be diligent in our search for God's truth. Some will come to the right understanding but sadly, we need to understand that the meaning of Daniel's prophetic words are in the whole sealled up until the end times, whenever that will be.


What each of us are saying is that we believe that our understanding is a little better than the other people's understanding.


Who will be right in the end will be revealed as the time passes.


Shalom.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby readyornot on Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:34 pm

I appreciate these different views. I appreciate good believers trying to interpret the prophecies. I did notice that Shorttribber was mischaracterized as saying all instances in the Bible of one day = one year when he did not. I think his theory merits consideration. Like EC, I just am not sure, and I think it's good for us to have theory A, B, and C, and maybe D and E because we really just do not know until it actually happens. Then, it's, "Hmmm, it was C after all. I didn't see that coming." But, the blessing is that potentially during much chaos and deception, we're prepared to present the theory that matches reality and continue to stand for the inerrancy of God's Word.

This is no way to determine who is right, but frankly, ST's theory that the AC is an Apostate within the Church is way scarier to me, which pushes me a little more toward considering it. I generally expect the worst. Plus, I just really still have my moments when I struggle with this concept that there seems to be two paths to salvation, through Christ for most of us, and then still via the temple sacrificial system for the Jews. I know they are special, but I have a hard time with that. I just heard a preacher the other day really lay that out as another gospel. Galatians? Hebrews? Anyway, I appreciate the tenacity each of you has. I think you have to push against a wall to see if it will stand. Also, Mark, I would be interested in the information you offered GS. In fact, I wish there was a place here where each relatively distinct view of things was laid out for comparison sake. I know it's all here in these years of threads that I'll never be able to read. very frustrating. Plus, I know a lot of people who used to be here have left. And, I don't know if good knowledge or theories left with them. But I do wish there was a designated place on FP where we could at least see some of the major distinctions and categories of prophecy theory presented as succinctly as possible, including any that are unique to some of the posters here. I suppose that could actually make a book, which would be a lot of work. I would buy it, though. Maybe even if each person with a distinct view could pick out one post or thread here where they clearly described it, and gather those threads in one place so no new writing would be required. And I also know that some of you have described a change in thinking based on continued study. So some of your older posts may not be your view any more. Any way, thanks to all those who continue to do the heavy lifting around here for those of us who cannot for various reasons. I believe the internet itself will be attacked in the end, and this site is a real treasure trove. I hope it lasts as long as possible. I would love to be able to download some of the more key things if that were possible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:08 am

readyornot wrote:I appreciate these different views. I appreciate good believers trying to interpret the prophecies. I did notice that Shorttribber was mischaracterized as saying all instances in the Bible of one day = one year when he did not. I think his theory merits consideration. Like EC, I just am not sure, and I think it's good for us to have theory A, B, and C, and maybe D and E because we really just do not know until it actually happens. Then, it's, "Hmmm, it was C after all. I didn't see that coming." But, the blessing is that potentially during much chaos and deception, we're prepared to present the theory that matches reality and continue to stand for the inerrancy of God's Word.

This is no way to determine who is right, but frankly, ST's theory that the AC is an Apostate within the Church is way scarier to me, which pushes me a little more toward considering it. I generally expect the worst. Plus, I just really still have my moments when I struggle with this concept that there seems to be two paths to salvation, through Christ for most of us, and then still via the temple sacrificial system for the Jews. I know they are special, but I have a hard time with that. I just heard a preacher the other day really lay that out as another gospel. Galatians? Hebrews? Anyway, I appreciate the tenacity each of you has. I think you have to push against a wall to see if it will stand. Also, Mark, I would be interested in the information you offered GS. In fact, I wish there was a place here where each relatively distinct view of things was laid out for comparison sake. I know it's all here in these years of threads that I'll never be able to read. very frustrating. Plus, I know a lot of people who used to be here have left. And, I don't know if good knowledge or theories left with them. But I do wish there was a designated place on FP where we could at least see some of the major distinctions and categories of prophecy theory presented as succinctly as possible, including any that are unique to some of the posters here. I suppose that could actually make a book, which would be a lot of work. I would buy it, though. Maybe even if each person with a distinct view could pick out one post or thread here where they clearly described it, and gather those threads in one place so no new writing would be required. And I also know that some of you have described a change in thinking based on continued study. So some of your older posts may not be your view any more. Any way, thanks to all those who continue to do the heavy lifting around here for those of us who cannot for various reasons. I believe the internet itself will be attacked in the end, and this site is a real treasure trove. I hope it lasts as long as possible. I would love to be able to download some of the more key things if that were possible.


That's a great idea Ready!
Maybe a sticky called "Comparison of Views" thread...

Each person who desires to add their view can do so....condensed or lengthy, whatever best expresses their view.

No debate is allowed...just a gathered list of differing views.

As for mine...it is in a thread named "shorttrib/prewrath"....

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57088

There are very few changes in what I currently believe and what I initially listed in the shorttrib/prewrath thread.

The main difference is in how I understand "those days" that Jesus spoke of (Math 24/Mark 13) as it relates specifically to the 1,260/1,290 (Dan 12) and in particular the 1,335 "days".....as we have been discussing in this thread.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:19 pm

So trump said he might reveal the peace plan after Ramadan, which ends thus Tuesday. 2 more days.

:clock: :clock:
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:53 am

extravagantchristian wrote:So trump said he might reveal the peace plan after Ramadan, which ends thus Tuesday. 2 more days.

:clock: :clock:


You know, our President is sort of creeping me out lately with all of his abrupt actions....so many, one on top of another, and those tweets...sheesh!

I tried to mention that to someone, but didn't even bother, because I said his name and the person I love said back to me that Trump was doing what he said he was going to do and so far, as far as my friend is concerned, Trump is definitely on the plus side....(those were his words).

You know, it's true, and even for me in so many ways, Trump IS on the plus side....but I am still uneasy about him...so I am going to continue to pay close attention and see where things go with him.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:02 pm

It's good to have an open mind. it's really weird to me to watch friends and evangelical leaders always praising him. Pat Robertson, Pastor Jeffers, Franklin Graham, so on and so on. They don't just like him, they almost worship him. It's creepy. You can't talk to these people because their mind won't even go there.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:50 pm

Recent news from today:

https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/06/11/a ... eace-plan/

US Ambassador to Israel David Friedman has been called back to Washington to help the Trump administration prepare to present its forthcoming Middle East peace plan.

The US Embassy in Israel confirmed Friedman had returned to the US and said that while in Washington, Friedman would be meeting with State Department and White House officials.

Friedman had been set to attend the American Jewish Congress’ Global Forum in Jerusalem on Sunday but was forced to cancel his attendance at the last minute after being called back to the US for urgent discussions on the peace process, according to AJC donor Jeffrey Aronson.


:clock:
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:21 pm

OK, so I've really been thinking of things.

IMO, this N. Korea stuff happened at the very same time the summit with the G7......Canada and the EU nations.....so, the super tempers that got going with the G7 really didn't get much press before we were hurled right into the talks with President Trump and Kim Un......and the world sees the talks between N Korea and Trump as being more significant than what happened with the G7

another ...what do they call these things?????......diversion........

I think what happened with the G7 is actually a much bigger deal if you watch bible prophecy unfolding. Actually, what's going on with this G7 stuff is ultimately potentially going to lead to a restructuring of the nations (10 nation alliance that doesnt include the USA)......and fit in real nicely with many end time events......

So, money and oil are playing a significant rift in the restructuring of friends and foes all through the world and things that didnt seem possible (no way that could happen coz' this nation and that nation are so "close).....all of a sudden are possible.

Funny to me that the G7 thing is practically being overlooked, and yet, it's such a big deal......such a big deal.

I hate to quote myself, but for context, I wanted to.

Where are we at with this???? (see article linked)


https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanue ... operation/
Last edited by GodsStudent on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:33 pm

I was thinking that this historic peace deal with NK could somehow fuel a historic peace deal with Israel.

And if this deal with Israel contains anything about 7 years or a temple, that would be a big deal.

Trump isjust full of peace deals.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby DaveG on Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:02 pm

My mind is all over the place on this. As with the scripture above, the following has jumped out at me several times over the last week as well.

Daniel 8:25 - King James Version (KJV)
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.



I listened to an interview Amir Tsarfati earlier this evening, and he mentioned something interesting. He said ever since the US embassy announcement/move in May, many Jews in Israel have started talking about a messianic time, or a messianic era, or even some talking about Trump having a messianic image. This isn't to say that Trump is or will be the anti-christ, but rather that there are now Jews in Israel who are showing the openness to accept a foreign leader or "non Jew" as a messiah.

I will agree with you on witnessing many Trump supporters ( I voted for him, so this isn't bashing those who did as well) who seem to almost worship him, or at least worshiping his accomplishments. It's the same mindset/reaction as those who voted for and supported Obama and would go to certain lengths to lift him up almost to the point of worship. If anything, it shows that the world/beast system currently being crafted by Satan is working as it is pushing the world to look for a savior from the earth, instead of Jesus.

We are living in very prophetic times.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:15 pm

Dave, thanks for that verse in Daniel 8, I knew there was something like that but couldn't remember where it was.

This thing with North Korea, that fell into his lap. If anything it happened in spite of his tough talk against kim.
Kim wanting a peace deal is an answer to the fervrent prayers of God's people in South Korea. The world is marveling right now, but I give God the credit.

I'm not surprised that the Jews are feeling an openness for messiah. Can you imagine living in the most holy land of the largest religion on earth? But I don't get why they would so quickly dismiss jesus? If they've read the OT at all, there are so many verses that perfectly describe him.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby DaveG on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:26 pm

extravagantchristian wrote: I'm not surprised that the Jews are feeling an openness for messiah. Can you imagine living in the most holy land of the largest religion on earth? But I don't get why they would so quickly dismiss jesus? If they've read the OT at all, there are so many verses that perfectly describe him.



For those of us who can see, it's amazing to read the OT and see Jesus everywhere. Among many chapters, Isaiah 49 is one of my favorites.

Salvation Reaches to the End of the Earth

49 Listen to Me, O islands,
And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.
2 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword,
In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me;
And He has also made Me a select arrow,
He has hidden Me in His quiver.

3 He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel,
In Whom I will show My glory.”
4 But I said, “I have toiled in vain,
I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity;
Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the Lord,
And My reward with My God.”

5 And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him
(For I am honored in the sight of the Lord,
And My God is My strength),
6 He says, “It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”



But there is one thing that's important to keep in mind. The Jews were blinded by God, as it is said in Romans 11.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.



So for many of us, these scriptures about Jesus in the OT is very obvious. However, for many Jews they still can't see it.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:58 pm

Its Sad that they can't see. But some can.

Even in genesis we see Jesus, from Abraham being asked to sacrifice his only son to the blood of the lamb being spread on the doorposts.
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:38 am

Technical error...I ended up editing my above last post on this thread when I wanted to make a new post, so I'll duplicate the new post here.

Where are we at on this?


https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanue ... operation/
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Re: US Ambassador to Israel gifted image of 3rd Temple

Postby extravagantchristian on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:30 pm

I read the article GS, it sounds like France is trying to organize a military alliance, in the event that the US didn't have their back. Also since they've had to act alone in the past against ISIS.

It makes sense to have a solid relationship with allies which is something Trump doesn't seem to value. I know we're the "Greatest Nation" on earth but now we have the greatest debt on earth and our ability to stand alone has greatly diminished.

I know that "10 horns" are mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation, so it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on this, although it's probably not the first 10 nation alliance there has been. I don't really have an opinion on these verses, they don't seem to fit yet, at this time.

It's interesting though that there are 4 beasts mentioned. We typically just think of the 1 beast which is the Antichrist. Maybe the 4 beasts will be 4 world leaders that come against Israel. Zechariah says that God will terrify the nations who divide Israel.

Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Daniel 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.

Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

Revelation 13:1 [ The Beast from the Sea ] Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
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