"One taken, one left" from a pre-wrath perspective

[Truthinlove]

I am trying to understand this, but it doesn't seem to make sense from a pre-wrath perspective where we will be here going through the great tribulation prior to the rapture.

Luke 17:34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left."

So....at the point of the rapture, believers will have been undergoing the great tribulation for a while now. Murder is rampant all over the globe and few believers will be alive towards the end. The love of most will grow cold, LOVED ones will BETRAY and HATE one another. How will it be that a believer and and unbeliever will be sharing a bed together up to the rapture?? That doesn't seem possible. I read "Overcomer" & "The Appearing" - in the scenario she played out, which is probably pretty realistic, this just doesn't seem the likely scenario for the rapture.

Matt. 24:40-41 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."

Again....this doesn't seem to fit with the prewrath scenario of a rapture out of great tribulation. Why would believers be right there will unbelievers?? Unbelievers will be killing believers. I think believers will either be in hiding, or they will be killed. It doesn't seem like they will be out in the open doing normal things during the great tribulation. And....are they working in those verses?? How will believers be able to work without the mark of the beast, there will be no buying and selling for those who refuse the mark so how would they be paid?

I am confused.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Truth In Love-

I think sometimes we get caught up in certain aspect of the great tribulation that we overlook other aspects. For instance, we emphasize how believers will be persecuted, put to death, perhaps denied food (?), but what about other portions of these same passages? For instance, let's start with Luke 17:20-37. Jesus talks about the unchanging nature of the people of this world. He points to the days of Noah and draws a parallel. Just like in Noah's days, those people carried on just like they always had. They kept getting married, they kept having children, they kepts having feasts, building houses, selling merchandise, and then when the flood came, they were taken by surprise. They had no idea this worldwide judgment was coming. So from one perspective, yes, certain events will transpire that will make this world a crazy place for a while. However, in another sense, the world will just keep on functioning as if no judgment were hanging over their heads.

The Olivet Discourse teaches the same thing. While a worldwide, intense persecution of Christians is taught, the world just keeps on turning. There is persecution in the world now. Does this mean that believers and non-believers do not coexist? The persecution is more intense and polarized in certain portions of the world. I expect it will continue this way even though the persecution becomes more intense. Believers and non-believers will continue to go to work together, cohabitate with each other, attend the same functions, but there is this impending judgment which could overtake all of them. Some of this will be affected by the great persecution, but some of this will not. The great tribulation which will be occurring throughout the world will be a testimony in the news as to exactly where we are in the eschatological scheme of things. I don't think anybody will be totally ignorant of what is occurring. This persecution will surpass any other. But will it get as bad as some of these novels portray? We can't be certain.

Another passage that tells us that the world will continue operating as it always has is II Peter 3. While some scoffers are insisting that everything just keeps functioning as it always has, there will be this judgment which could break forth upon them to destroy the world by fire. Again, the parallel to the flood of Noah is drawn to show that the world at large was unprepared before and will be unprepared again. They simply will not understand as they go about their every day business that something is about to drastically alter the face of this earth.

So, if I can just speak the truth in love, Truth In Love, we should not let sensationalization eclipse other aspects of these prophecies. We can speculate what it might be like, there’s no harm in that. But let’s not overlook the fact that these same prophecies portray a world that just keeps on going, unaware of what is unfolding. Both aspects will be fulfilled shortly.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Truthinlove]

Hi Truth In Love-

I think sometimes we get caught up in certain aspect of the great tribulation that we overlook other aspects. For instance, we emphasize how believers will be persecuted, put to death, perhaps denied food (?), but what about other portions of these same passages? For instance, let's start with Luke 17:20-37. Jesus talks about the unchanging nature of the people of this world. He points to the days of Noah and draws a parallel. Just like in Noah's days, those people carried on just like they always had. They kept getting married, they kept having children, they kepts having feasts, building houses, selling merchandise, and then when the flood came, they were taken by surprise. They had no idea this worldwide judgment was coming. So from one perspective, yes, certain events will transpire that will make this world a crazy place for a while. However, in another sense, the world will just keep on functioning as if no judgment were hanging over their heads.

Hi OM - thank you for your reply. Yes, I get this, but the world will seem normal to those who accept the MOB, but to those who refuse it will mean death. Taking that fact into consideration and the fact that Jesus said that family members will turn against each other, it just is hard to imagine a non-Christian sharing a bed with a Christian through all that.

There is persecution in the world now. Does this mean that believers and non-believers do not coexist?

No, they do, however there is not an ultimatum of follow the beast or die.

Believers and non-believers will continue to go to work together, cohabitate with each other, attend the same functions

But how? I can see that up to a certain point, but once the MOB is enforced those who don't have it won't be able to make any financial transactions therefore going to work becomes obselete.

So, if I can just speak the truth in love, Truth In Love, we should not let sensationalization eclipse other aspects of these prophecies. We can speculate what it might be like, there’s no harm in that. But let’s not overlook the fact that these same prophecies portray a world that just keeps on going, unaware of what is unfolding. Both aspects will be fulfilled shortly.

I hear ya. It is just still hard for me to reconcile those verses though.

[daffodyllady]

I can imagine it would be a lot like as a christian wife of a muslim man in a muslim country, who lives in constant threat of her life. She holds no job, and probably doesn't get out of the house much at all. Yet she is allowed to live as long as he wishes to have her in his bed. She fits the description of the scriptures, doesn't she?

[TexasBeliever]

Here's a scary thought: remember the story of the bridemaids waiting for the groom with their lamps? There were all waiting but half of them were locked outside the gates. Perhaps the ones who were not taken in the rapture are rejected believers?
Jesus said of those terrible times; "Pray constantly, that you may be found worthy to stand before the Son of Man."

[AndCanItBe]

Perhaps the ones who were not taken in the rapture are rejected believers?

Do you mean by "rejected believers", those with only head knowledge, like the demons, who have never been saved? Anyone who truly believes is not going to be rejected.

1 John 5

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

[Loop]

Hmmm! Or the Inward man taken and the outward man left ....

Where so ever the body is there will the eagles be gathered...

Luke:17 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

[rizen]

Hello Truthinlove,

How will it be that a believer and and unbeliever will be sharing a bed together up to the rapture??

The answer is they won't be sharing a bed. This is the primary difference between the true "rapture ready" Christian (2 Peter 1:14-15) and the twice dead one (2 Peter 2:20). The difference between the two is that the rapture ready Christian has already forsaken his life in the world, while the left behind Christian has not. This is why the proper passages to highlight in Luke 17 are verse 32-33.

In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. (Luke 17:32-33)

In 1 Thess. 5 we are promised that both the Great Tribulation and Day of Lord will not come like a thief upon true believers. First Thessalonians 5 obliterates the idea of an any-moment rapture. In each instance (before Great Trib. and DOTL) there will be a warning issued to believers to completely forsake their own lives in this world (similar to Rev. 18:4). Those who do act upon that warning will reap its reward (the Rapture). We see in Rev. 14:4-5 how the 144,000 are able to stand on the Day of the Lord because they were not defiled with women and no leaven or guile was found in their mouths. Leaven is a symbol for pride. This was the thing that Lot's wife could not rid herself of and is why she was left behind.

There is a corporate solidarity in the 144,000 firstfruits and all those who who escape the Day of the Lord, just as there is a corporate solidarity in the remnant of Judea who fled at the sign of the AOD (Matt. 24:15-18) and all those who escape the Great Tribulation. The thing that both groups shared was a willingness to forsake everything this world had to offer, just as it was the thing that Noah and Lot shared. Revelation 18:4 is a type of pre-rapture warning. Matthew 24:15-18 illustrates how we should react to that warning. And Revelation 14:1-5 shows us the result of acting on the warning.

However, the example of Lot's wife in Gen. 19:26 shows us the result of not acting on the pre-rapture warning. Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt and left behind because she was unwilling to forsake everything "in this world" in order to escape. Therefore, it isn't the rapture that is imminent, it is this warning to forsake everything in the world that is. This is what Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are illustrating. The one who is taken from the bed, field, world is already gone before the rapture happens. Although their physical bodies will be present along with unbelievers in the world at the rapture, their hearts and minds are in two completely different places. If you want to be rapture ready, you better be prepared to forsake everything in this world at any moment, even things that are not evil at all in themselves (buying and selling, marrying and being given in marriage...etc).

So....at the point of the rapture, believers will have been undergoing the great tribulation for a while now. Murder is rampant all over the globe and few believers will be alive towards the end.

There's no doubt there will persecution during the great tribulation. But the fear of physical persecution isn't the primary thing we are warned to flee from. The two things we are warned about most are deception and temptation. The temptation is going to be much greater than the persecution. The bible forewarns us in four places (1 Cor. 3:18-20; Eph. 5:6-10; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; 1 Jo. 3:7-11) how the Antichrist is going to attempt to deceive the elect. These passages should be of primary importance as it pertains to the Antichrist, not the physical persecution. But this is a difficult message to get across in Laodicea.

[rizen]

The primary passages I would use to demonstrate how the "paralambano" in Matt. 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-36 is a reference to the rapture would be Matt. 2:13 and John 14:1-3. The "harpazo" (rapture) of Revelation 12:5 obviously draws on the "paralambano" of Matt. 2:13. Revelation 12:1-5 was fulfilled historically in Matt. 2:13-14 when Joseph was warned in a dream "during the night" (just like Luke 17:34) to take his wife and Jesus and escape to Egypt. In order to escape the wrath of Herod and for "flesh to be saved" (Matt. 24:22), Jesus had to be physically removed from Israel to Egypt. This same scenario comes into play in the last days when the great tribulation is cut short for the elect's sake in order that flesh be saved. While it's pretty obvious how the sealing of the 144,000 after the 6th seal (but before the 1st trumpet judgment in Rev. 8) would represent a saving of flesh, from a theoretical point of view the saving of flesh actually begins when those in Israel flee at the sign of the Abomination of Desolation in Matt. 24:15-18. We are told in Rev. 12:6 how they will be divinely protected in wilderness for the final 1260 days of the 70th Week. But in order to be divinely protected, it is required that they literally remove themselves from Israel to someplace else.

The "taken" (paralambano) of Matt. 24:20-41 and Luke 17:34-36 are the same ones that Jesus receives (paralambano) in John 14:3.

Hmmm! Or the Inward man taken and the outward man left ....

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (1 Cor. 15:50-51)

[rizen]

One other way of examining Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is to take a look at the Greek word for "flood" (kataklysmos) in Matt. 24:38-39 and Luke 17:27. This word is only used four times in the Bible (the other time in 2 Peter 2:5), and the implication is that this flood is going to bring such utter cataclysm upon the unrighteous that will require physical removal of the righteous. This flood is depiction of God's wrath.

This is distinct from the other "flood" (potamos) in Matt. 7:25-27 and Luke 6:48-49, which both the wise and foolish virgins must withstand. This particular flood is the same one that issues forth from Satan's mouth in Rev. 12:15-16. It's an interesting word because it carries with it the idea of drinking (pino) and excess banquetings ("potos" from 1 Peter 4:3). In light of the fact the context of Luke 17:27 highlights drinking as one of the things the foolish virgins will be doing before the kataklysmos flood, it's not difficult to see how this is a picture of how they subscribed (whether knowingly or unknowingly) into the designs of Satan and his desire that you be consumed with the cares of this life. This is why Luke 6:47 and Matt. 7:24 tell us to not only be hearers of His word but doers of it as well. This is the real difference between a wise and foolish virgin.

But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. (Matt. 25:9)

Goes together with:

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matt. 7:6)

Here we see the foolish virgins are midrashically represented as swine. The text of Matt. 7 is alerting the wise virgins to not give their oil (illumination of the word of God) to the foolish virgins. The book of Proverbs illustrates how this would be like placing a jewel in a swine's snout since they are without discretion:

As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion. (Pro. 11:22)

Notice how it's the lack of discretion or discernment that makes a foolish virgin "foolish". I wonder if Matt. 25:9 is referenced in Pro. 11:13?

A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter. (Pro. 11:13)

It seems obvious the wise virgins of Matt. 25:9 are concealing something. I'm not sure, but this might put a whole new spin on what the swine of Matt. 8:30-32, Mar. 5:11-13, and Luke 8:32-33 represent. Foolish virgins?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Here's a scary thought: remember the story of the bridemaids waiting for the groom with their lamps? There were all waiting but half of them were locked outside the gates. Perhaps the ones who were not taken in the rapture are rejected believers?
Jesus said of those terrible times; "Pray constantly, that you may be found worthy to stand before the Son of Man."

Very observant! I believe you're onto something here, TexasBeliever.

Pre-trib and post-trib scholars both teach that the gathering of the elect (Matt. 24:29-31) is the second coming, though most post-tribbers also believe it is both, the rapture & second coming. I say it's the rapture alone. Matthew chapter's 24 & 25 lay it all out for us. This is all in Christ' response to His disciple's question in verse (3), which covers mostly the "and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" The end of the age is not covered, however, until the end of chapter 25 (sheep & goats judgment). So from the gathering of the elect and all of the parables in between, these things speak of His coming. The question is, which coming? Is this the promised coming for His own, or is this His physical second coming to the earth?

To accurately answer those questions, we need to take a close look at all of the clues that are hidden in those parables, beginning after where He sends the angels to gather His elect. He warns His followers that they need to be ready. He tells about the faithful servant that will be rewarded greatly, but many tend to forget or neglect the part about the evil or lazy servant who gets caught unaware of His return. Many also completely overlook a major clue He gave in verses (45-46), which indicates who those that are ready are (the doers). They will be given meat in due season, which is one of the clues about the wedding supper. The other is found in the days of Noah (marrying and given in marriage). Also, read Luke 12:37-48 and take a close look at verse 46.

Then He goes into the "two will be in the field, one is taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one is taken and the other is left." It appears that only half of the living believers will be ready when He appears in the clouds. I believe the parable of ten virgins confirms this. Then next, the parable of talents shows the Lord returning to reward His faithful servants, but punishing the one who hid his talent in the ground, or did not do what his Lord commanded. This is that same evil or lazy servant that was left in the field, the five foolish virgins that were not prepared (ready), and now he is also being cast into the outer darkness. Both servants can be seen in all of these parables. Many assume that the outer darkness is hell, but we are already living in this dark world, where Satan is the prince. The question is, what will become of these believers that are left? I believe they are the saints that are overcome by the beast in Rev. 13, as they will end up refusing the mark of the beast and become martyrs.

Many say and teach that the entire church will be raptured, but I have not been able to find any scriptures to confirm that. Judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17), so we need to be ready!

[Sunny]

RollinTHUNDER, I am so glad you resurrected this old thread. I had not seen it before.

That some Christians will be ready and some will not be is something my Dad preached decades ago. I had forgotten it. It gives me a lot to think about.

[rollinTHUNDER]

RollinTHUNDER, I am so glad you resurrected this old thread. I had not seen it before.

That some Christians will be ready and some will not be is something my Dad preached decades ago. I had forgotten it. It gives me a lot to think about.

Hi Sunny,

Jesus said, "And Behold, I am coming quickly and my reward is with me, to give to every one according to his work." (Rev.22:12 NKJV).

There are actually three (3) rewards that believers can receive for their works. I already mentioned the first two in the post above, but there is still another. Those who are ready will go in the rapture. Then we have the martyrs. These both make up the saints that will return with Christ to rule and reign (both the faithful & lazy servants). Like a precious stone that has been cut, those that are ready will shine immediately when the Lord appears, but precious metals (gold & silver) need to be purified first in the fire to burn off the dross (impurities). The martyr's (lukewarm) are left to be purified like gold and silver.

This brings us to the third and final reward, which is actually a severe punishment. The wood, hay & stubble are all things that get consumed in fire, which represents those that fall away. These are the sheep that will be protected through God's wrath, yet all the works were burnt up. Unlike the martyrs that died and re-entered the kingdom of heaven, the sheep are the men that will want to die but death will flee from them and God will separate the sheep from the goats at the second coming. The sheep will be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ and they will re-populate the earth in the millennium, while the goats will all die in the fire of God's wrath. The sheep are granted entry into the millennial kingdom because they ministered to the least of Christ' brethren. Some may ask, who are the least in the kingdom? It's the lazy servants (martyrs), not those who were ready (the doers).

Matthew 5:19 NKJV
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Precious stones = rapture / wedding supper (saint)
Gold & silver = martyr / souls under the altar (saint)
Wood, hay & stubble = sheep / re-populate the earth

There's a lot more to this mystery, but this is my nutshell version. It's actually a whole new rapture theory.

[Sunny]

Well, I can't find satisfactory scriptural backing for the three different reward categories in the manner you've broken them down. But I'm too tired tonight to do a lot of searching.

The sheep are granted entry into the millennial kingdom because they ministered to the least of Christ' brethren.

I've been puzzling over that judgment a lot lately. The Bible actually says that the sheep go into eternal life (not mortal life in the millennium) and the goats go into everlasting punishment.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matt. 25:45-46

That throws a monkey wrench in my understanding of who will populate the millennium. :)

[rollinTHUNDER]

That throws a monkey wrench in my understanding of who will populate the millennium. :)

Christ gave us all the clues we need in these parables. They are a priceless masterpiece, but we need to be careful not to take every point in them literally, because not only did He provide all of the clues needed, but He also threw in a couple of those wrenches to keep the foolish from understanding. I think it's funny when we see people getting tripped up right from the start, arguing over which ones were evil, those that were taken or those that were left? They end up missing the point totally, often thinking these are the sheep and goats.

I'm tired too. It's time to hit the sack.

Nice chatting with you, Sunny!

[rollinTHUNDER]

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage, so what does this mean? Christ cleverly just added that in. It's is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep).

[rollinTHUNDER]

I am trying to understand this, but it doesn't seem to make sense from a pre-wrath perspective where we will be here going through the great tribulation prior to the rapture.

Hi Truthinlove,

I think it would be helpful to remember that the tribulation of those days are shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt.24:21-22). Then as you read on, Christ warns His followers that they need to be ready, because the Son of man will be coming when they won't be expecting Him, at a time that even He didn't know, nor the angels, but His Father only. It will also happen before God pours out His wrath, like it was in the days of Noah.

Matt. 24:40-41 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."

Again....this doesn't seem to fit with the prewrath scenario of a rapture out of great tribulation. Why would believers be right there will unbelievers?? Unbelievers will be killing believers. I think believers will either be in hiding, or they will be killed. It doesn't seem like they will be out in the open doing normal things during the great tribulation. And....are they working in those verses?? How will believers be able to work without the mark of the beast, there will be no buying and selling for those who refuse the mark so how would they be paid?

I am confused.

What to think about all of these different rapture views? The rapture has been a profound mystery and very controversial since the 1st century. There are several different theories. Pre-trib and post-trib are the most popular rapture theories, but that does not mean that they are correct. I prefer the timing of the pre-wrath theory, but it still has it's own set of problems. So I kept studying this mystery until I accidently designed my own rapture theory, as crazy as that may sound.

This mystery reminds me of that old Prudential commercial. Everyone owns a piece of the rock. But what does the entire rock look like?

It's kind of funny, when you consider all of these different theories:
[A.] Some Christians believe we will be going all the way through the tribulation and meet Christ at the second coming. [B.] Many believe they will escape or be rescued from the wrath to come.
[C.] Some Christians don't believe in the rapture at all.
[D.] But many believe they will be martyred or killed for refusing the mark of the beast.
[E.] All of the above.
So now comes the $64,000.00 question; which one of these beliefs above is correct?

The answer will almost certainly shock you, but would you believe the correct answer is [E.] All of the above.
No wonder this mystery has become so controversial! But it all depends on which reward you will receive when our Lord returns. When He comes, He'll be coming with power to judge, and judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17). He warned us to be ready, and only those who heed His commands will escape the hour of trial that will come upon the world, to test those who dwell on the earth (Rev. 3:10-11).

Revelation 22:11 - "And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using (gold, silver), (costly stones), (wood, hay or straw), 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (emphasis mine)

Basically, there are three (3) different rewards that believers can receive. Those who are ready [costly stones] will go in the rapture and rule over all the Kings goods (greatest in the kingdom). Then many others will not be ready [gold & silver] and die as martyrs (least in the kingdom). Both of these two groups are the saints that will return to reign with Christ. But there is one more group of believers [wood, hay & straw]. This final group of believers got saved, but later fall away. These will be saved (protected) through God's wrath. Unlike the martyrs, they will want to die, but death will flee from them (Rev.9:6). They are severely punished and lose all their rewards. And not only will they miss the rapture, but they will also miss the first resurrection as well, which ended when the last martyr was killed. And they (sheep separated from goats) will be subjects in the millennium and re-populate the earth along with the remnant of Jews that flee to the mountains.

This is why the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 3, not because of the mythical pre-trib rapture, but because the house was broken up (Matt.24:43). Those who are ready will escape (wedding supper), but the lazy servant will be cut asunder (cut in two-Matt.24:48-51). This is why many saints will be overcome by the beast in Revelation 13, not because they get saved after the rapture. And this is why we see the sheep being separated from the goats at the second coming, when Christ judges the nations, because this is the end of the age and the beginning of the millennium.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

[Ready1]

Those who are ready [costly stones] will go in the rapture and rule over all the Kings goods (greatest in the kingdom).

Thanks rollinTHUNDER, I appreciate that!!!

[Sonbeam]

If a believer has been born again, he/she is "ready" when the Lord returns.



sonbeam

[rollinTHUNDER]

If a believer has been born again, he/she is "ready" when the Lord returns.



sonbeam

Hi sonbeam,

So it's really that simple? Receive Christ as your Savior and just believe? I wonder why Christ didn't just come right out and say that then? Why would He repeatedly warn His followers to be ready, if we're all going to be taken when He comes?

Do you think, maybe no one will really have to surrender his/her life after refusing the mark of the beast either? Or maybe there is really no such thing as lukewarm believers? Maybe no one will fall away from the faith? Or how about, maybe there won't be a beast or an hour of trial that will come upon the world, to test those who dwell on the earth?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Has anyone ever considered the different types of people in the parable of the sower? I believe this parable confirms my theory about the rewards of believers.

The parable of the sower shows how people accept the word (gospel) when it is presented to them. Jesus gave the interpretation of their responses. However, in verse (9), Christ added, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” This indicates that a deeper interpretation can be found in this parable, if one is willing to seek. I used this parable in my book as well, as it actually confirms that there are three different types or classes of believer and each will be rewarded accordingly, beginning when Christ appears.

[Ready1]

(3) SEED SOWN AMONG THE THORNS: Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.
Luke 21:34

Mat 13:22 The seeds that fell among thorn bushes stand for those who hear the message; but the worries about this life and the love for riches choke the message, and they don't bear fruit.

Mar 4:18 Other people are like the seeds sown among the thorn bushes. These are the ones who hear the message,
Mar 4:19 but the worries about this life, the love for riches, and all other kinds of desires crowd in and choke the message, and they don't bear fruit.

Luk 8:14 The seeds that fell among thorn bushes stand for those who hear; but the worries and riches and pleasures of this life crowd in and choke them, and their fruit never ripens.

[WilliamL]

Sonbeam wrote:If a believer has been born again, he/she is "ready" when the Lord returns.

rollinTHUNDER: Hi sonbeam,

So it's really that simple? Receive Christ as your Savior and just believe? I wonder why Christ didn't just come right out and say that then? Why would He repeatedly warn His followers to be ready, if we're all going to be taken when He comes?

William: Being born again, or more literally born from above, or born anew, means being born of the Holy Spirit. This is not merely believing/receiving Christ as one's Savior:

John 3:3 Jesus ... said, Except a man be born anew/from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... 5 Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ... 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is WAY more than just faith and belief. It is a transformation of one's being, becoming a new creation, a new person. Belief and faith are essential to coming to the point of opportunity of being born from above, but ... here is where so many misunderstand, and stay, and do not ENTER IN, AND BE INFILLED.

Repentance gets you past the brazen altar, where you lay down and sacrifice your life of the flesh.
Confession gets you past the laver, where your soul's sins are washed away.
But to enter the Holy Tabernacle/sanctuary/naos, you must be infilled with the Holy Spirit. That infilling purifies your own Adamic spirit, which allows it to stand without shame among God's Holy Ones.

[Sonbeam]

This is WAY more than just faith and belief. It is a transformation of one's being, becoming a new creation, a new person. Belief and faith are essential to coming to the point of opportunity of being born from above, but ... here is where so many misunderstand, and stay, and do not ENTER IN, AND BE INFILLED.

Repentance gets you past the brazen altar, where you lay down and sacrifice your life of the flesh.
Confession gets you past the laver, where your soul's sins are washed away.
But to enter the Holy Tabernacle/sanctuary/naos, you must be infilled with the Holy Spirit. That infilling purifies your own Adamic spirit, which allows it to stand without shame among God's Holy Ones.
WilliamL Posts: 50Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 1:13 pmLocation: Sangre de Christo mountains

Interesting thoughts William, but I do not see any scriptural support for this. Can you provide specific scriptures for your beliefs?

You say being born again is a transformation of one's being, becoming a new creation, a new person." and 2 Cor 5: 17
bears this out:

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!"

But then you refer to the "Adamic spirit" needing to be purified??

[WilliamL]

Sonbeam; Can you provide specific scriptures for your beliefs? ... you refer to the "Adamic spirit" needing to be purified??

Man/adam is born with a body, a soul, and a spirit (and breath [Hebrew, n'shamah], but we won't go there). Your only question is to the man-spirit. This is witnessed in...

Romans 8:16 The [Holy] Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Zech 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man [Hebrew: adam] within him.

There are other such verses, but these should suffice.

[Mrs. B]

One taken, one left....from a pre-wrath perspective....

Paul says....I die daily...
when we are born again...we are in this world but not of this world.....we must die daily....I live, yet not I.... but He Lives in me........I'm an old lady....wife, mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, and now great-grandmother....

I am Born Again....have been for along time....but we have an enemy of our soul....and he is always trying to get us side tracked....distracted.....

Jesus came to do the Father's will......Paul says..I die daily...so we also must die daily to do God the Fathers' will...
Jesus also died daily....take up your cross and fellow me......the cross is a symble of death.....a giving up of our life and letting Jesus live in us.....Follow Me, He said......it is a dying to self and fellowing Him....

I also thought....when I was Young I was going to go to Heaven because I fellowed him.....But Jesus said to me...You Must Fellow Me......not our church teachings but Jesus Teachings......Paul said I die Daily....we must take up our cross and fellow Him, Fellow Jesus....

Even now....Jesus said to me....You Must Die Daily.....my thoughts were haven't I done enough? No I must fellow Him Daily....I must give up my Will to Fellow His will.....

I use to trust in my husband.....He is a God man....but that will not save me...I must fellow Jesus....Fellow HIm Daily.
So I die daily.....it is not easy.....we all have a will......we must give up our will and be obedient to His Holy Spirit that lives in us ...and Follow HIm...amen

Mrs. B

[kirthril]

I am trying to understand this, but it doesn't seem to make sense from a pre-wrath perspective where we will be here going through the great tribulation prior to the rapture.

Luke 17:34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left."

So....at the point of the rapture, believers will have been undergoing the great tribulation for a while now. Murder is rampant all over the globe and few believers will be alive towards the end. The love of most will grow cold, LOVED ones will BETRAY and HATE one another. How will it be that a believer and and unbeliever will be sharing a bed together up to the rapture?? That doesn't seem possible. I read "Overcomer" & "The Appearing" - in the scenario she played out, which is probably pretty realistic, this just doesn't seem the likely scenario for the rapture.

Matt. 24:40-41 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."

Again....this doesn't seem to fit with the prewrath scenario of a rapture out of great tribulation. Why would believers be right there will unbelievers?? Unbelievers will be killing believers. I think believers will either be in hiding, or they will be killed. It doesn't seem like they will be out in the open doing normal things during the great tribulation. And....are they working in those verses?? How will believers be able to work without the mark of the beast, there will be no buying and selling for those who refuse the mark so how would they be paid?

I am confused.

Jumping in this old discussion I would like to add something I think solves this:

In the parable of the 10 virgins, we are told that 10 virgins are told by the master to wait for his return by keeping their lamps lit with oil. 5 did. 5 did not. When the master returned he took the 5 and left the other 5....

1 taken. 1 left.

I think this parable has been greatly misunderstood by Christians and the prophetic community. I believe this parable is about Christians and Christians only. Not about the unbelieving world. Jesus, the prophets, the bible states on more than a dozen occasions that just because someone calls themselves followers of God doesn't mean they truly are.

These 10 virgins are told by the master to wait for his return. This cannot mean unbelievers because unbelievers don't even acknowledge the master and call him "master". They are not waiting for him, they do not know him. But of those who call Jesus "master" are waiting for his return, even the misguided false Christians who claim servitude.

Because of deceit and deception, the apostasy and other factors, many who call themselves "Christian" will find themselves left behind at the rapture. They are the ones who will say "Lord Lord, did we not..."

I think this parable and the aforementioned post speaks rather clearly for me. Of all those who call themselves "Christian" only half will be taken up as the true elect because they did not forsake and abandon the true teaching of scripture and join the worldly ways. 1 taken 1 left. 5 with oil, 5 without.
..............

Also do note, that prophetically many nations fight against the AC. The tribulation will be worse in some areas of the world than others. It is reasonable to expect there to be safer spots where people can still live comfortably and continue life as normal just as stated. Just think of it as a larger scale version of WW2. That war was centered in Africa, Asia, and Europe. The tribulation is wider scale but similar because the AC is focused on taking Jerusalem, the brunt of his military might will stay in that region of the world (Africa, Europe, Asia).