Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

No opposing arguments allowed

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:45 pm

Eph. 2:7 speaks of the ages to come. What is in store for us?! There's the millennial kingdom but then there are more ages after that? What could they be? What will they look like?



:humm: :humm: :humm: :humm: :humm: :humm:

If I knew that, do you really think I would be allowed to tell?

:happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday:

II Corinthians 12:3-4, John 3:12-13, Isaiah 64:4, I Corinthians 13:12

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Mrs. B on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:30 am

Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture....



Just a thought....

In the Beginning God Created Man......Adam in the image of Himself...

Adam the first man....created in the Image of God...

God created a man in his own image....
What is an image?


Then God Promised a Seed
God seed
Jesus is the Only Begotton son of God...

Jesus said......And he that seeth me.... seeth him that sent me....John 12:45

John 14:9b....He that hath seen me hath seen the Father....

Jesus is the very image of the Father God

In the beginning God Created man in His Image...
Jesus is the Perfect Image of God...the Perfect man
The second Adam.
John 14:10...Believest thou not that I Am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that Dwelleth in me...He doeth the Works...

11.....Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
or else believe me for the very works' sakek...

12....Verily, Verily, I say unto you...
He that believeth on me....the works that I do shall he do also;
and greater works than these shall he do;
Because I Go Unto My Father...

13....And whatsoever Ye Shall Ask in My Name, that will I do, that the Father may be Glorified in the Son.

14....If ye shall ask any thing in My Name, I Will do it...
15....If ye love me.....Keep My Commandments.....(the ten commandments)
not the law....Jesus fulfilled the law....but the ten commandments love the Lord with all thy heart and thy Neighbor as thyself....LOVE

16....And I Will Pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter....that He may Abide with you forever;
17.....Even the Spirit of Truth;
Whom the world cannot receive....
Because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him:
but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18...I will not leave you comfortless:
I Will Come to You..
19....Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more;
But Ye SEE ME: Because I Live, Ye shall Live Also.
20....At That Day...Ye shall Know that I Am in My Father.....AND Ye in Me, and I in You....

In that day?
today?
Now?
or in the ages to come?



Mrs. B
Mrs. B
 
Posts: 2062
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby revelation12eleven on Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:14 pm

Hi Mrs. B,

It would seem that "that day" is referring to after the resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was talking to His disciples. In verse 8 Philip says to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. Jesus responds with "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father." Then Jesus goes on to tell how He will ask the Father and the Father will give the disciples the Helper, the Spirit of truth. (Jn. 14:16,17.) Believers today understand the reality that Jesus and the Father are one and that we are one with them, through the indwelling Spirit. (I can't say that I fully comprehend it!) We will understand that wonderful truth throughout all ages to come...throughout all eternity. The Holy Spirit reveals that truth to us, and the disciples realized that reality when the Helper came. At the time Jesus spoke those words, it appeared to be somewhat baffling to them...

What do you think?

Orange, whose birthday was it???
Overcomer
User avatar
revelation12eleven
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:41 pm
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:35 pm

So when we read about the flood in Matthew 24:39 and Luke 17:27, isn't this really an allusion to the great winepress of the wrath of God in Rev. 14:19?

Also, when Matt. 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-37 reference how one will be taken while the other will be left behind, can't we just agree that this is talking about the resurrection/rapture before the wrath of God begins? If this is true, then what can we say about the 10 virgins? If five are taken (Matt. 25:10), then five must be left behind, right? Again, this is reference to the resurrection/rapture at the end of the age, isn't it?


Rizen-

Yes, You and I can, We can say a lot, Right, Yes.

As for the song of Moses in Revelation 15, I believe it's referring more to the song in Deuteronomy 32 (which is a part of the Palestinian Covenant to be fulfilled at the national salvation of Israel) more so than the song of Exodus 15. Although Exodus 15:16-18 will be fulfilled at that time as well, so there could be a correlation. So the progression is this.

Revelation 14:1-5 ~ The 144,000 Israelites are sealed showing the firstfruits of Israel's national repentance.
Revelation 14:14-16 ~ The resurrection/rapture, but 144,000 Israelites are left to proclaim the song.
Revelation 15:2-4 ~ The raptured church is singing the Song of Moses before the throne while the Israelite remnant is left on the earth to be preserved through the wrath.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

So close, but so far away

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:51 pm

With the latest issue of Zion's Fire, we now have Marv Rosenthal's view of Revelation 14:14-16. I was quite surprised because most classic prewrathers that I have dialogued with do not see this passage as the rapture, this includes Charles Cooper and Ron Wallace. Marv doesn't concede that this is the rapture, but his language is a whole lot closer than others would be comfortable with. Here is his view from the article entitled Revelation 14, The Triumph of the Lamb.

Almost all commentators group the two reapings of the earth together and identify them as the judgment of God upon a humanity that has embraced the Antichrist and taken his mark.

If these two reapings are grouped together, with little to distinguish them, as often is done, a number of questions must be answered.

First, Why are there two reapings if they are basically dealing with the same subject? What is it that distinguishes them?

Second, Why is the first reaping done by the Son of God, Himself, as at the rapture of the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and the second reaping done by angels as in the trumpet and bowl judgments?

Third, Why is there no wrath, sin, or judgment associated with the first reaping when wrath, sin, and judgment are the major themes of the second reaping?

I suggest that the first reaping has nothing to do with judgment. In the New Testament, harvesting (reaping) is sometimes used in a bad sense. However, most frequently, it is used in a good sense of the gathering of men into the kingdom of God (Matthew 9:37-38; Mark 4:29; Luke 10:2; John 4:35-38).

The first reaping is the removal of men who have not succumbed to Antichrist but instead heeded the warning of the three angelic beings and gave glory to God the Father and His only begotten Son. The Son of God does not send an angel to do this reaping. He does it Himself for these are men and women who now belong to Him. They must be reaped quickly before the second reaping commences. This event occurs at the end of Daniel's Seventieth Week (often called the Tribulation) at the blowing of the seventh trumpet and immediately prior to the pouring out of the seven bowls. It includes the resurrection of those who came to faith and were martyred after the Church was raptured (Revelation 11:15-18).


I believe Rosenthal is so close, but his chronological issues keep him from seeing that it is the actual rapture and not another rapture-like event after the rapture. His view concedes the truth about the language, but placing it after the rapture creates more issues than it resolves. For instance, where are they taken to? Doesn't this mean that other passages could be corroborated with this passage to create a post-wrath rapture scenario? Why hasn't there been a description of the wrath upon the earth in this passage (Revelation 12-14) up until this point?

I believe that Revelation 14:14-16 is redescribing the event of the rapture from a different point of view. Instead of creating another rapture, why can't it be the rapture? Huh, Marv? Why?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:02 pm

Have made reading Rosenthal's Triumph of the Lamb my new year's day resolution!
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Finaldash on Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:56 pm

They must be reaped quickly before the second reaping commences. This event occurs at the end of Daniel's Seventieth Week (often called the Tribulation) at the blowing of the seventh trumpet and immediately prior to the pouring out of the seven bowls. It includes the resurrection of those who came to faith and were martyred after the Church was raptured (Revelation 11:15-18).


Rosenthal believes that? Another one after the main Rapture?
But...but.. why Marv?
Orange, I agree with your view on this and I understand your confusion. :alrighty:
Nike, you have to give a little talk to your friend, Marv.
User avatar
Finaldash
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: Juneau, Alaska/ SoCal

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:01 pm

Thanks Final Dash-

I see also that this could lead to support for a seventh trumpet rapture which is the classic post-trib position as opposed to the prewrath position which is a sixth seal rapture. I myself am wondering "Why Marv?"

Course I think I know. There are chronological issues which one has to work out and Marv has written a book whereby the bowls are AFTER the trumpets in the 30 days following the seventieth week proper. Revelation 14 presents challenges to this IF one believes that the passage is chronological. Gary Vaterlaus believes that the bowls follow the trumpets, but that Revelation 14 isn't necessarily strictly chronological. So he agrees that Revelation 14:14-16 is the rapture without compromising that issue. I think that's humility when someone as knowledgeable as him would refine his position like that after being challenged with the language of the passage.

I think Marv is a far cry from those who just lump the two reapings together and say they are both for judgement. However, I just don't think he goes quite far enough. That's why I titled my post "So close but so far away". Anyway...

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby nike on Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:41 pm

Orange - have you ever considered calling Marv and asking him to discuss his position with you? (Feel free to drop my name...) :grin: I would think that would be a fun experience for the both of you! :wink:

nike
nike
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:34 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:24 pm

Heya Nike-

I get in enough trouble as it is. I'm not really a talk-on-the-phone kind of guy. I'm more of a let's-go-out-to-eat-after-church kind of guy. I would have to meet him in person first. I would feel awkward that way.

BTW, you're not the only one. All day long on my route I have the conversation going. I would comment on your blog but I can't figure out how. Any tips?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am

nike wrote:Orange - have you ever considered calling Marv and asking him to discuss his position with you? (Feel free to drop my name...) :grin: I would think that would be a fun experience for the both of you! :wink:

nike


Hi nike, and Orange.....I hate to butt in on this conversation, but I have somewhat followed it, as the ideas presented are great.

Orange, I really respect your posts, and comments. This is a wonderful idea that nike presents. Not only could this be a fun experience for you and Marv; it could also be a magnificent tool to edify the Body of Christ - if you were to share your experience with Marv, with the rest of the Forum. (Provided that you take this question of nike to the next level)

No Pressure! :lol:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby nike on Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:39 am

Orange,

I am not sure why you can't comment...it must be Divine Intervention! My friend had a post where the comments section was messed up for a while, but that was fixed and I do get comments here and there, so all I can say is try again...and be nice!

As for Marv, if I ever hear he's coming up this way you can be sure there will be a dinner in your future. In the meantime, I'm with Mr. Baldy...a phone conversation might be out of your comfort zone, but is that really my problem??? Buck up, buddy, and make the call!

By the way, there may be a church plant coming in your direction in 2010...

nike
nike
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:34 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:47 pm

Mr. Baldy, I seriously cannot type your name without laughing. Sorry.

Thank you for your kindness. But what exactly would the "next level" be?

Nike-

You are quite skilled and gifted.

At guilt trips.

I tried to get an E-Mail conversation with Coop going at one time. It didn't go very far. I figure if people (like Coop and Rosenthal) want to dialogue with others they would frequent forums like this or PreWrathOnly. I wonder how a phone conversation with Marv would go.

"Hi, I'm a friend of Nike's and she wanted me to tell you how I think you are wrong on several counts. By the way, I'm a big fan and I love your book. Which one? Oh, how many have you written?"

And I appreciate your graciousness in extending an invitation for the future.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby nike on Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:05 pm

Orange -

How about this: "Hi, I'm a friend of Nike's and she wanted me to tell you that she just loves you to death. By the way, I was wondering about something you wrote recently in your magazine..."

By the way, Marv is not of the email generation. He's far too verbal to type.

Fine. You can wait until he comes to town, but you'd better have your list ready or four hours into the conversation you won't be sure if you've covered what you initially intended to discuss. (Deja vu all over again...)

nike

(guilt trips...hmph...)
nike
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:34 pm

church plants

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:51 pm

Nike, I forgot to mention that I love church plants. Pointsettas, Easter lilies, Christmas trees, you name it.

A lady the other week was watering the plants at the church, and she watered all of them. I mean, all of them, even the artificial ones. She found out afterwards and was embarrassed.

So I'm fairly excited about a church plant coming my way.

Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves, we shall come rejoicing...

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:41 am

Hi Orange,

Doesn't this mean that other passages could be corroborated with this passage to create a post-wrath rapture scenario?


Yep....lol.

Later my friend,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:57 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:Mr. Baldy, I seriously cannot type your name without laughing. Sorry.


Hi OM,

Actually, there is absolutely NO need to be "Sorry". I happen to enjoy being BALD. Wouldn't have it any other way! :grin:

The Orange Mailman wrote: But what exactly would the "next level" be?


The "next level" would be to - instead of stating to this forum where you believe that Marv may have cut his theory short (for lack of a better word); to actually communicate with Marv, whether it be by email, or telephonic communication; and share what you communicated with Marv, be it the solutions, ideas....etc - as a result of the communication, to this forum.

I really and truly believe that this would both be beneficial to you, and edify we Body of Believers as a whole.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:33 pm

My main issue with Rev 14 is with the chronology of the passage, in particular v 1-5. The declarations of the 3 angels are clearly sequential given that v 8 & 9 both indicate that one FOLLOWED the previous one. Further, the parenthetical statement of v 12-13 seems to be sequential after the angels since we are told that those who die in the Lord FROM NOW ON, are blessed. This most naturally would refer to the time immediately after the 3 angels declarations. But if we then assume that v 1-5 occur BEFORE the 3 angels, what are the implications for Rev 7? Wouldn't this mean that the 3 angels occur between the sealing of the 144,000 but before the rapture? And if v 13 implies the GT, would this mean that the 144,000 are sealed prior to the 6th seal sign? Or are v 1-5 not sequential with the rest of the chapter and rather represent where the 144,000 end up at the end of the 70th week when Israel is saved? But then why would the whole chapter seem to be in a chronological order except for the first 5 verses?

There just aren't enough textual indicators for me to be sure. Any thoughts?


Hi tharkun,

Revelation 14:1-5 is especially tricky because it is introduced -- without warning -- at the beginning of a chapter that follows the infamous 666 passage. I think it's important for us to begin asking ourselves what connection 666 has to the sealing of the 144,000. I think once we begin to delve deeper into examining Rev. 13:18-14:5, we will begin to see parallels with respect to kind of Christian who will understand 666. It will likely be the same kind of person who John sees standing on Mount Zion with Jesus. They will be guileless and undefiled by Mystery Babylon, and they will also be heaven-dwellers. The same heaven-dwellers described in Revelation 12:12. In other words, Revelation 13:8-14:5 is more analogous than chronological.

But I think the most important thing that Rev. 13:18-14:5 is showing us is how those with the wisdom to understand 666 will do so before the Great Tribulation begins. This is where the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7:1-9 comes into play. In the same way that the 144,000 were sealed just before the Day of the Lord, those with the wisdom to identify the Antichrist will do so before the Great Tribulation begins. This is also illustrated in Christ's Last Supper, where Jesus unveils Judas to John just before Judas goes out to deceive Jesus and night falls (read: Great Tribulation, Joh. 13:30). In other words, the Church's version of being "sealed in the forehead" is understanding 666. It's on this point where pretribulational teachers unwittingly slip into "apostasy" when they teach how 666 is of no consequence to the church. It absolutely is. In fact, it's probably going to be one of the determining factors that distinguish an authentic Christian from a fake one.
Last edited by rizen on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:52 pm

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (Rev. 14:15)

Anybody have any ideas as to what causes this angel to come out of the temple to tell Jesus to reap the wheat?

As far as I can tell, it either relates to the full number of martyrs that have come in from the 5th Seal (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev. 14:13-14) or that the living saints and 144,000 have repented to such a degree that the "crop permits" or "fruit is brought forth" (Mar. 4:29). I'm also unsure as to what happens first regarding God's spirit being poured out and the "bitterness of soul" repentance of saints (like Hagar in Gen. 21:16-17 or 1 Sam. 1:10-17). Is it the repentance of saints that causes God to pour out his spirit, or is it the spirit of God that causes the repentance?

Or maybe it's all of them at the same time?
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Birdwatcher on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:08 pm

The author of the pre-wrath position in the new "Three Views on the Rapture" book also sees the 1st Reaping of Revelation 14 as the Rapture. He (Alan Hultberg) is also the editor of the new "Three Views" book. He's from Talbot School of Theology. This is the position that I hold as well.

You'll like this, OM -- he doesn't hold to the strictly chronological view of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls that most pre-wrathers do.

OM, you asked if anyone had read Marv's book on the Feasts of the Lord. We've not only read it, we've taught a class on it. It's a keeper.

~ Birdwatcher
Birdwatcher
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:05 pm

Hey Mo-

Glad to see you're still out here perusing the web. I've got that book. I did a little blurb on it on my blog. I received it in the mail last week. That's very encouraging to know that he share my... I mean... our view. Now I'm wondering if I should put my reading schedule in a different order. I've got a desire to know how PreWrath is presented after reading your post here.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Tevye on Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:22 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:the first trumpet (which I believe runs parallel with the first bowl).

Hello Darrin,
do you have a blog post on this view, or a post here?
If I missed it here at F.P.,
forgive my not noticing it yet.
If you don't have any, could you expound?
Tevye
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:08 pm

Okay Tevye, let's open this up. I can't find a post, and I think I've avoided a direct post, but here it is.

When Rosenthal wrote his book, The PreWrath Rapture of the Church, he unlocked a term whereby the church could better understand the timing of the rapture, the nature of the eschatological wrath of God, and the scriptures which correlate with the Day of the LORD. He laid down a solid framework. This was the basic idea.

-Daniel’s 70th week is yet future.
-At the midpoint comes the abomination of desolation.
-After the abomination of desolation begins the great tribulation.
-That great tribulation will continue until the rapture cuts short the great tribulation. This occurs at the sixth seal. After the rapture will begin the Day of the LORD which will include the eschatological wrath of God.
-The Day of the LORD will take up the remainder of Daniel’s 70th week.
-Then begins the millennial reign of Christ.

This is a great foundation. However, Rosenthal also submitted a chronology for the book of Revelation which is the issue that many struggle with when looking at Revelation 14. His chronology of the seals, trumpets, and bowls is what I have an issue with. Here is his chronology.

Seals 1-7, then Trumpets 1-7, which takes us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. Then in the 30 days which follow Daniel’s 70th week, Bowls 1-7. The issue that I have is that the beast of Revelation 13 is only given 42 months of the authority. The best structure of Revelation’s chronology will end the beast’s authority after 42 months with his destruction. But the bowls depict the beast as still possessing authority as the bowls are being poured out.

Rosenthal asserts that after the seventh trumpet sounds, leading us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week, that there is a section of scripture in Revelation 12-15 which is parenthetical. In essence, Rosenthal believes that we are to push the pause button on chronology after Revelation 11. Then when the first bowl is poured out in Revelation 16, the pause button is pushed again to get the chronology to resume. So in Rosenthal’s mind, and all those who believe that the bowls sequentially follow the trumpets, the events of Revelation 12-15 have no chronological significance.

When I see the rapture in Revelation 14:14-16, I am throwing a huge wrench into the chronological scheme of one of the founders of the PreWrath position. Most PreWrathers deny that there is any connection between Revelation 14:14-16 and the rapture. I had some interaction with Roy Reinhold who holds a very similar position to PreWrath. He denied any connection at all. Other PreWrathers that I have interacted with simply do not want to correlate that there is any connection. That is why I was so surprised that Rosenthal even made the connection that this is a rapture like event. But, he still has the chronology issue that won’t let him accept that this could be the rapture.

Here is my solution. We need a better understanding of Revelation’s chronology. Rather than push the pause button at Revelation 11:19, and then resume at Revelation 16:1, let’s look at the book as a whole, specifically the portions that apply to the end. Revelation 1-5 is fairly introductory. We need not bother too much with chronology there. Revelation 6 is where it gets good. The seals, I believe, begin at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. The first five seals represent the different facets of the antichrist’s authority, including the great tribulation at the fifth seal. The sixth seal is the rapture, showing two multitudes, one remnant on earth, the other in heaven having been raptured. Then comes the wrath of God in seven phases, or trumpets 1-7 in that order. So far, I agree with Rosenthal. Here is the chronology of Revelation 6-11.

Seal 1, Seal 2, Seal 3, Seal 4, Seal 5, Seal 6, Seal 7, (beginning of God’s wrath)
Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, Trumpet 3, Trumpet 4, Trumpet 5, Trumpet 6, Trumpet 7 (end of the 70th week)

Revelation 12-16 also contains a chronology. The events of Revelation 12-13 contain a few basic things that occur at the dawn of time and the first advent, but very quickly shift to the end times 1260 days, or the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. The rise of the beast from the sea describes the different facets of the antichrist’s authority. So we are essentially covering the same ground as the seals, but with more details revealed. Here we have a description of the ten horns, the false prophet, and the mark of the beast. After this, we transition into chapter 14 which contains a description of the 144,000 on Mount Zion. So this is another parallel passage to the previous chronology. I view the details of Revelation 14 to be more information on what we already know, just like Revelation 12-13 was more information concerning the antichrist and the suffering of the saints that we saw in Revelation 6. Revelation 14 has the three angelic announcements. Then there is a clear description of the rapture, which I started this thread to highlight that idea. Then immediately after this, there is an event known as the great winepress of God’s wrath. This is showing us that the wrath of God follows the rapture. Just as Revelation 7 showed two different groups of people, one in heaven and one on earth, so Revelation 14-15 shows the same. There are the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-5, then in Revelation 15, we see the church victorious over the beast, but standing in heaven. Following this, the bowls will be poured out on the earth which are described as God’s wrath. At the seventh bowl, “It is finished.” This would lead us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week, and the end of the reign of the beast, so ending the 42 months of authority.

In short, Revelation 6-11 describes a chronology, which is basically the events of the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. Revelation 12-16 also describes a chronology, which is also the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, with a couple of brief exceptions at the very beginning. After chapter 16 concludes, the angel takes John on a tour to help him understand things better. He sees a vision of the prostitute which helps him to explain the nature of the beast. He sees a vision of the marriage supper of the Lamb. He sees a vision of Armageddon. He sees the New Jerusalem, the new heaven, and the new earth. All of these can be inserted back into the chronology which was revealed in Revelation 6-11 and 12-16, which both happen concurrently.

With this basic foundation, now we can discuss how the trumpets and bowls occur in a parallel fashion. There is no evidence in the book of Revelation that the bowls occur in the 30 days following Daniel’s 70th week. But if there are any questions or objections that need to be covered first, I will address them.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Tevye on Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:38 pm

Okay, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around this.
Instead of the trumpets going before the bowls
they happen together at the same time?

Trumpet 1 - Bowl 1
Trumpet 2 - Bowl 2
...and so on?
Same time different events?
Tevye
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:18 pm

Hey Tevye-

That's a good start to understanding it the way I do. The best thing one can do is to read through the chronology of 6-11, then read through the chronology of 12-16. Then start to line up events that you know are parallels. For instance, what exactly happens at the seventh trumpet? Have you wondered that? It doesn't really say anything happens, but there is this announcement that makes it seems like the nations raging is the thing of the past, the rewards for the saints have been distributed, and those that destroyed the earth have been destroyed. I believe the seventh bowl more fully expounds on this. Not that they are the same thing, but they occur during the same time frame.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:31 pm

Orange wrote:

While I believe that the trumpets and bowls occur concurrently, they are to be differentiated. I see the bowls as focusing more on the beast, his kingdom, and his followers. The trumpets are directed more at the world at large. So when we read that the first bowl directly affects the followers of the beast with sores, and we read that the first trumpet brings down hail and fire burning up on third of all trees and all green grass, it’s obvious that two different things are occurring. I see them as occurring within the same time frame, but other than both of them being God’s wrath, there is no further connection in my mind.

Hi Orange,

I think Orange is onto something here regarding the difference between the bowl and trumpet judgments. We see this highlighted when the fifth bowl is poured out upon the seat of the beast and his kingdom. In light of the idea that the bowl judgments are centered on the beast's kingdom while the trumpet judgments concern the world outside the beast's kingdom, is the fourth seal actually revealing how much of the world (the fourth part) the beast's kingdom encompasses?

If so (or not), in your opinion what part of the earth does this "fourth part" represent?

I also think it's pretty interesting how the sounding of the seventh trumpet tells us the time has already passed to "destroy them that destroy the earth". If you read through the first six bowls, it's interesting how none of them depict anyone being killed or dying. This is unlike the trumpet judgments--the third and sixth specifically--where people are depicted being killed or dying. What this might suggest is how the seventh trumpet announces that the seventh bowl is when those of the Antichrist and his kingdom are destroyed. I mean they would have to be destroyed at some point. Of course by the time the seventh trumpet sounds, it would appear the Antichrist's kingdom would encompass all the earth since the sixth bowl depicts spirits of devils working miracles through the whole world to gather them to Armageddon (Rev. 16:13-14).

Thanks
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:36 pm

Hey Birdwatcher,

I really enjoyed your book. It came highly recommended.
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:12 pm

Hey Rizen-

I think Orange is onto something here regarding the difference between the bowl and trumpet judgments. We see this highlighted when the fifth bowl is poured out upon the seat of the beast and his kingdom.


I believe this is the best evidence to show that the bowls are still within the 42 month reign of the antichrist.

In light of the idea that the bowl judgments are centered on the beast's kingdom while the trumpet judgments concern the world outside the beast's kingdom, is the fourth seal actually revealing how much of the world (the fourth part) the beast's kingdom encompasses?

If so (or not), in your opinion what part of the earth does this "fourth part" represent?


Death and hell are given power over ¼ of the earth which will result in death of ¼ of the world’s population by the means described in Revelation 6:8. I don’t view this as “the antichrist has control over ¼ of the earth”. In every country within the ten nation confederacy, there will by those that take the mark of the beast thus making them a part of “his kingdom”. Within those same ten nations, there will be Christians who refuse the mark of the beast, and, if I might add, some who will be alive and remain until the coming of Christ.

I also think it's pretty interesting how the sounding of the seventh trumpet tells us the time has already passed to "destroy them that destroy the earth". If you read through the first six bowls, it's interesting how none of them depict anyone being killed or dying. This is unlike the trumpet judgments--the third and sixth specifically--where people are depicted being killed or dying. What this might suggest is how the seventh trumpet announces that the seventh bowl is when those of the Antichrist and his kingdom are destroyed. I mean they would have to be destroyed at some point. Of course by the time the seventh trumpet sounds, it would appear the Antichrist's kingdom would encompass all the earth since the sixth bowl depicts spirits of devils working miracles through the whole world to gather them to Armageddon (Rev. 16:13-14).


I see what you are getting at and there may be something to it. I’ll have to think about that distinction for a bit. I have noticed that the first four trumpets are directed at the earth, sea, and trees, showing that the sealing of the 144,000 is complete. Many lives are destroyed during the first four trumpets even though the plagues are directed at nature. This is why the classic post-trib idea that the seal and trumpets overlapping does not work. The seventh seal is broken leading into the Day of the LORD’s wrath anticipated by the proclamation of those that dwell on the earth at the sixth seal. If you overlap the seals and trumpets, you would have trumpets destroying the earth, sea, and trees during a time period when the angel ascending from the east has prohibited this. It’s not just the servants of God who receive the protection, the natural elements do as well, but after the 144,000 are sealed, then the trumpets bust loose.

Thanks for the insights on the focus of the bowls.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:51 am

Hey Orange,

You wrote:

The seals, I believe, begin at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. The first five seals represent the different facets of the antichrist’s authority, including the great tribulation at the fifth seal
.

Death and hell are given power over ¼ of the earth which will result in death of ¼ of the world’s population by the means described in Revelation 6:8.


In light of the idea that death and hell are given power to kill one-fourth of the world's population when the fourth seal is opened, would it be presumptuous to assume that the cutting short of the great tribulation when the sixth seal is opened is exactly that time when one-fourth of the world's population has died. In other words, where do you place the fifth seal? Is the fifth seal opened after one-fourth of the world's population has perished, or is it opened in the midst of their perishing?

Also, two more questions:

1) In Rev. 14:9-12 we read:

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This passage is obviously connected to Rev. 13:10, where we read:

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Is the patience of the saints during the great tribulation somehow connected to the same "word of my patience" we read about in Rev. 3:10?

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

As I'm sure you're well aware, Rev. 3:10 is probably the most quoted "prooftext" that pretribulationists use to support their position. But if it's the patience of the saints during the great tribulation that allows them to be kept from the "hour of temptation", wouldn't this suggest that the "hour" in question is a particular time period that follows after the great tribulation?

2) Have you considered how the words of Jesus in Rev. 16:15 might be connected to Dan. 12:12?

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Rev. 16:15)

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Dan. 12:12)

In your opinion, is the seventh trumpet blown on the day which Dan. 12:12 alludes?

I know the classic prewrath position holds that the 45 day period between Dan. 12:11-12 is when the seven bowls are poured out, but if the sixth bowl is around the time when this 45 day period begins then obviously the previous five bowls have already been poured out before this time.

Also, it should be noted that if there is a connection between the "blessings" of the Dan. 12:12 and Rev. 16:15, that this ultimately connects back to the blessing of Rev. 20:6 concerning the "first resurrection".
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Birdwatcher on Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:08 pm

rizen wrote:Hey Birdwatcher,

I really enjoyed your book. It came highly recommended.


Thank you, rizen! Thank you, OM!
Birdwatcher
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Hello Rizen-

In light of the idea that death and hell are given power to kill one-fourth of the world's population when the fourth seal is opened, would it be presumptuous to assume that the cutting short of the great tribulation when the sixth seal is opened is exactly that time when one-fourth of the world's population has died. In other words, where do you place the fifth seal? Is the fifth seal opened after one-fourth of the world's population has perished, or is it opened in the midst of their perishing?


I wouldn’t be that exacting on scripture. The sixth seal may occur that way and you wouldn’t be interpreting in a presumptuous way. But where do I place the fifth seal? I believe the first five seals are opened in rapid succession. The antichrist is revealed along with the different facets of his authority. The great tribulation begins at that point in time. Therefore martyrdom begins at that time. The sixth seal occurs significantly after that since there is a time period during which the martyrs cry out for vengeance and are specifically told they must wait longer. That’s the cue that there is a gap in between the fifth and the sixth seals. Otherwise, the first five all occur together and are grouped together.

As I'm sure you're well aware, Rev. 3:10 is probably the most quoted "prooftext" that pretribulationists use to support their position. But if it's the patience of the saints during the great tribulation that allows them to be kept from the "hour of temptation", wouldn't this suggest that the "hour" in question is a particular time period that follows after the great tribulation?


That’s a very good connection between Revelation 3:10 and 14:12 &13:10. I have gone back and forth on Revelation 3:10. It simply cannot be cited as a proof text since the ideas are not explicitly stated. I like your idea of connecting the similar phrase linking them all. In fact, a quick search revealed that this is the same word in the Greek. It occurs 7 times in the book of Revelation at 1:9, 2:2, 3, 19, 3:10, 13:10, 14:12. Those are all telling references. I think you’ve converted me.

2) Have you considered how the words of Jesus in Rev. 16:15 might be connected to Dan. 12:12?


I have not considered this.

In your opinion, is the seventh trumpet blown on the day which Dan. 12:12 alludes?

I know the classic prewrath position holds that the 45 day period between Dan. 12:11-12 is when the seven bowls are poured out, but if the sixth bowl is around the time when this 45 day period begins then obviously the previous five bowls have already been poured out before this time.

Also, it should be noted that if there is a connection between the "blessings" of the Dan. 12:12 and Rev. 16:15, that this ultimately connects back to the blessing of Rev. 20:6 concerning the "first resurrection".


I believe the blessings for those who arrive at the 1335 day after the abomination of desolation are millennial blessings when the king sits on His throne. The 7th trumpet, to me, is like the changing of the kingdoms. The trumpet is blown, the times comes for the kingdoms of this world to become subservient to God’s kingdom which is now physically present here on earth.

Classic PreWrath has the bowls being poured out during the 30 days following the 1260 day period. This is where Rosenthal picks up Daniel 12:11 which states there will be 1290 days from the abomination of desolation. I think this is unwarranted and contradicts the fact that the antichrist’s reign is for 42 months, not 43 months. The difference between my view and classic prewrath could be considered slight by some since we agree essentially on the placing of the rapture.

But, on to your comments. I see Revelation 16:15 to be a warning for those who will be deceived during the Day of the LORD. The parallel, in my mind, is II Thessalonians 2:9-12. The context in Revelation is that the three unclean spirits are deceiving the masses into gathering together against the LORD to be slaughtered at Armageddon. So really the time for these to turn back is too late. They have already refused the truth that they might be saved. Now all that is left for them is being deceived into rebelling against the Messiah to be destroyed along with the antichrist. So in Revelation 16:15 there is the warning to be prepared lest they wind up being deceived by the devil during the Day of the LORD. The blessing described there is that they will be raptured to escape the Day of the LORD and not be deceived since they kept their garments spotless in order to meet the Messiah in the air as He descends.

I hope that covers everything. Thanks for the dialogue.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:06 am

Hey Orange,

I don't know if you've seen this article from a pretribulationist, but it's confounding to me why he places the seventh trumpet at the midpoint of the seventieth week.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd23.html

Obviously their strict adherence to the chronological sequencing of the seven seals, trumpets, and bowls plays a major role in this idea, as well as their assumption that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are all God's wrath (something that James 1:19-20 [wrath of man] and Rev. 12:12 [wrath of Satan] demonstrably distinguish), but how would you argue against the idea the seventh trumpet marks the midpoint of the seventieth week without making a distinction between man's wrath, Satan's wrath, and God's wrath?

As I considered this, wouldn't one argument against this be the sealing of the 144,000 "firstfruits" before the trumpet judgments. In Matthew 24:22, we are told that unless the days of the great tribulation are shortened that no flesh would be saved. Isn't the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7:1-8 before the trumpet judgments the time in which God is literally ordaining "flesh" to be saved? If the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the millennium, the seventh trumpet cannot mark the beginning of the great tribulation, since at this point the 144,000 have already been sealed and the great tribulation cut short.

Also, I was reading over Rosenthal's Zion's Hope article:

http://www.zionshope.org/iframe_html/01 ... _0110.aspx

On page 3, Mr. Rosenthal makes the point that Rev. 14 is when the 144,000 are standing with Jesus after the seven trumpet judgments. My guess is he means after the trumpet and bowl judgments (since the sounding of the seventh trumpet, according to the classic prewrath theory, opens the seven bowls), is this what he's implying?

In the next paragraph, Rosenthal makes a very interesting assertion I've never heard before, and that is that Rev. 15:1 is a depiction of the "third sign" after the first two seen in Rev. 12 (woman with crown of twelve stars and great red dragon). What's your take on this idea?

And one last question. When Rev. 14:6 states that John saw "another angel" flying through the midst of heaven, is this suggesting that the "Lamb" standing with the 144,000 on Mt. Zion in Rev. 14:1 is the first angel that preceded it?

I believe the blessings for those who arrive at the 1335 day after the abomination of desolation are millennial blessings when the king sits on His throne. The 7th trumpet, to me, is like the changing of the kingdoms. The trumpet is blown, the times comes for the kingdoms of this world to become subservient to God’s kingdom which is now physically present here on earth.


Makes sense to me. Not sure if you're aware, but on Yom Kippur (10th of Tishri) in 63 B.C. the Roman General, Pompey, entered the Holy of Holies (where only the High Priest is allowed). This is a major shadow of the abomination of desolation. If you count forward seventy-five days from Tishri 10 (Yom Kippur), you end up at Kislev 25 (Hanukkah). This obviously echoes the words of Jesus in Matt. 24:20-21, and might explain something about how the 75 days has a future application.

I hope that covers everything. Thanks for the dialogue.


Nicely done, as always. No, thank you.
Last edited by rizen on Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:34 pm

how would you argue against the idea the seventh trumpet marks the midpoint of the seventieth week without making a distinction between man's wrath, Satan's wrath, and God's wrath?


Hey Rizen-

You’ve really got to hold to the sixth seal/cosmic signs from Matthew 24:29-31 parallel. That’s the hinge point for chronology across the board. Of course you have to know your stuff. The surrounding contexts will bring this all to light as well. For instance, “the great tribulation” is mentioned in Matthew 24:21. “Great tribulation” is also mentioned in Revelation 7:14. Also, the nations see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in Matthew 24:30. At the sixth seal, the nations want to be hidden from the One who sits on the throne and from the Lamb. They obviously see Him.

There is one other argument that may get you some street cred. The seventh trumpet terminates the ministry of the two witnesses. Some will say that the two witnesses prophesy during the first half of the week. But look at Revelation 11:1-3. The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days, during which time the holy city (Jerusalem) is trampled for 42 months. Once the 42 months are over (which is also the 1260 days of ministry of the two witnesses), the holy city will no longer be trampled down. So the sounding of the seventh trumpet concludes the time of the trampling down of the holy city by making the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. Further, Luke 21:24 states that Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the end of the age. So, the 42 months are the final 42 months at the end of the age. After that, Jerusalem is liberated from Gentile dominion. Jerusalem now is actually still under partial Gentile control since Jordan has authority over the temple mount and the dome of the rock inhibits undisputed Jewish worship. Israel will not regain full control of the temple mount according to Luke 21:24, at least not until the seventh trumpet sounds. That begins the millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem, or the New Jerusalem actually.

As I considered this, wouldn't one argument against this be the sealing of the 144,000 "firstfruits" before the trumpet judgments. In Matthew 24:22, we are told that unless the days of the great tribulation are shortened that no flesh would be saved. Isn't the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7:1-8 before the trumpet judgments the time in which God is literally ordaining "flesh" to be saved? If the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the millennium, the seventh trumpet cannot mark the beginning of the great tribulation, since at this point the 144,000 have already been sealed and the great tribulation cut short.


I think that’s good supporting evidence once you have made your case, or once you have converted someone to the PreWrath position. I doubt whether a pre-tribber is going to see this as evidence. I would like to be pleasantly surprised though. There does seem to be a correlation, and since the great multitude comes out from the great tribulation, that is either in the past, or at least has been occurring up to that point in time (which is the sixth seal).

On page 3, Mr. Rosenthal makes the point that Rev. 14 is when the 144,000 are standing with Jesus after the seven trumpet judgments. My guess is he means after the trumpet and bowl judgments (since the sounding of the seventh trumpet, according to the classic prewrath theory, opens the seven bowls), is this what he's implying?


I don’t think so. If you read through this thread, I am arguing against Rosenthal’s classic view. When Marv gets to chapter 14, he is on the verge of seeing things in a breakthrough way, but he has chronological baggage in my humble opinion. He really means “after the trumpet judgments”. He doesn’t believe the bowl judgments have occurred yet since he places them after the 1260 day period. He sees the 144,000 standing there, then there is another rapture type event that occurs, then finally the 7 bowls are poured out during the 30 days following the 1260 days. To me, this contradicts Revelation 13:5 since the beast is still alive during the bowl judgments and Revelation 13:5 has limited his reign to 42 months. Rosenthal’s chronology is keeping him from seeing that Revelation 14:14-16 is the rapture, and not just another rapture type event.

In the next paragraph, Rosenthal makes a very interesting assertion I've never heard before, and that is that Rev. 15:1 is a depiction of the "third sign" after the first two seen in Rev. 12 (woman with crown of twelve stars and great red dragon). What's your take on this idea?


I’d be open to it. But it seems like that’s all there is to it. It’s the third sign.

And one last question. When Rev. 14:6 states that John saw "another angel" flying through the midst of heaven, is this suggesting that the "Lamb" standing with the 144,000 on Mt. Zion in Rev. 14:1 is the first angel that preceded it?


No. I ran into this same type of interpretation with Roy Reinhold. He holds that the Son of Man on the cloud is an angel in Revelation 14:14, partly because Revelation 14:15 states that “another angel” came out of the temple. There are so many angels throughout the book of Revelation. John is seeing things in a vision. Sometimes he sees multitudes of angels. Then sometimes he sees a lone angel appear with a specific role. At that time, he sees “another angel”. This does not mean that the personage directly before this was an angel. It just means, here’s another angel, you know we’ve so many already.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby lecoope on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:41 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Okay Tevye, let's open this up. I can't find a post, and I think I've avoided a direct post, but here it is.

When Rosenthal wrote his book, The PreWrath Rapture of the Church, he unlocked a term whereby the church could better understand the timing of the rapture, the nature of the eschatological wrath of God, and the scriptures which correlate with the Day of the LORD. He laid down a solid framework. This was the basic idea.

-Daniel’s 70th week is yet future.
-At the midpoint comes the abomination of desolation.
-After the abomination of desolation begins the great tribulation.
-That great tribulation will continue until the rapture cuts short the great tribulation. This occurs at the sixth seal. After the rapture will begin the Day of the LORD which will include the eschatological wrath of God.
-The Day of the LORD will take up the remainder of Daniel’s 70th week.
-Then begins the millennial reign of Christ.

This is a great foundation. However, Rosenthal also submitted a chronology for the book of Revelation which is the issue that many struggle with when looking at Revelation 14. His chronology of the seals, trumpets, and bowls is what I have an issue with. Here is his chronology.

Seals 1-7, then Trumpets 1-7, which takes us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. Then in the 30 days which follow Daniel’s 70th week, Bowls 1-7. The issue that I have is that the beast of Revelation 13 is only given 42 months of the authority. The best structure of Revelation’s chronology will end the beast’s authority after 42 months with his destruction. But the bowls depict the beast as still possessing authority as the bowls are being poured out.

Rosenthal asserts that after the seventh trumpet sounds, leading us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week, that there is a section of scripture in Revelation 12-15 which is parenthetical. In essence, Rosenthal believes that we are to push the pause button on chronology after Revelation 11. Then when the first bowl is poured out in Revelation 16, the pause button is pushed again to get the chronology to resume. So in Rosenthal’s mind, and all those who believe that the bowls sequentially follow the trumpets, the events of Revelation 12-15 have no chronological significance.

When I see the rapture in Revelation 14:14-16, I am throwing a huge wrench into the chronological scheme of one of the founders of the PreWrath position. Most PreWrathers deny that there is any connection between Revelation 14:14-16 and the rapture. I had some interaction with Roy Reinhold who holds a very similar position to PreWrath. He denied any connection at all. Other PreWrathers that I have interacted with simply do not want to correlate that there is any connection. That is why I was so surprised that Rosenthal even made the connection that this is a rapture like event. But, he still has the chronology issue that won’t let him accept that this could be the rapture.

Here is my solution. We need a better understanding of Revelation’s chronology. Rather than push the pause button at Revelation 11:19, and then resume at Revelation 16:1, let’s look at the book as a whole, specifically the portions that apply to the end. Revelation 1-5 is fairly introductory. We need not bother too much with chronology there. Revelation 6 is where it gets good. The seals, I believe, begin at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. The first five seals represent the different facets of the antichrist’s authority, including the great tribulation at the fifth seal. The sixth seal is the rapture, showing two multitudes, one remnant on earth, the other in heaven having been raptured. Then comes the wrath of God in seven phases, or trumpets 1-7 in that order. So far, I agree with Rosenthal. Here is the chronology of Revelation 6-11.

Seal 1, Seal 2, Seal 3, Seal 4, Seal 5, Seal 6, Seal 7, (beginning of God’s wrath)
Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, Trumpet 3, Trumpet 4, Trumpet 5, Trumpet 6, Trumpet 7 (end of the 70th week)


Why on earth end the 70th week here? It is not where John or the Holy Spirit end it! One day while minding my own business, reading in Dan. 9:27, when my eyes and mind got to "midst" God suddenly spoke to me and I heard these words: "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I was dumbfounded. But my spirit-man spoke up and ask, "how would I find that?" And He answered, "whenever I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint of the week and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"

When He said those last words, I knew in my spirit that when I found "marker" for the midpoint, it would be the SAME MARKER for the beginning and end. And indeed, that is exactly what I found. God has used the "sevens" for markers: the entire 70th week is laid out marked by the sevens. The 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends the week. In Rev. 16, at the 7th vial we see the words, "it is done," or "It is finished." There is good proof that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, because in 12:6, seconds after the abomination, we see those living in Judea fleeing - because they have just seen it. They are the "woman" or those in Israel that know to flee. So the exact mipoint, the time of the abomination, must be seconds before 12:6. Back up and the only event you can find is the 7th trumpet.

And that in itself is very unusual in the way it is written. Between the 6th and 7th seal, John went into a "intermission" where like in a play the curtain is closed so they can rearrange the set. That is exactly what John does. Two events must be accomplished before the 7th seal begins the day of the Lord and the 70th week. (Yes, they begin together.) These two events are the rapture of the church and the sealing of the 144,000. John does the same kind of an intermission between the 6th and 7th trumpets. There are many things that must happen just before the exact midpoint, and many things right after it, so John is "rearranging the set" while the curtain of the trumpets is temporarily closed. Now, imagine you at seeing the "Nutcracker," you are at the midpoint intermission and everyone is leaving for refreshments or bathrooms. But suddenly you see the curtain open quickly, and king soldier kills the King rat, and the curtain closes again - and most of the people MISSED IT! Of course that would never happen, for everyone would demand their money back! But that is EXACTLY what John does. The Midpoint intermission begins in chapter 10, and goes through chapter 14 at least. All the events of these chapters take place very close to the midpoint. But in the middle of the intermission, suddenly the curtain opens quickly and the 7th trumpet is sounded; then it is back to the intermission to rearrange the set in preparation for the vials, which come during he second half of the 70th week.

If you will notice the message of one of the angels in chapter 14, the angel is warning NOT TO TAKE THE MARK. Therefore it makes good sense that the mark has not yet been set up, but is about to be. So John is still close to the midpoint.

Back up to Chapter 13. There is something we must understand about John's chronology. in verses 1-6, John is VERY CLOSE in chronology to the abomination and midpoint. And to follow his chronology, we read to verse 5. From that verse on, John is writing a parenthesis, taking us on a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week with the Beast. He does the same thing in chapter 11. The first two verses are in His chronology, perhaps a week before the abomination. The Beast must GET TO JERUSALEM before He can walk into the temple. Of course he comes with armies. Without a doubt, Muslim armies. Then, the next verse, 11:3 comes exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination. But verses 4 to 13 are a parenthesis or SIDE JOURNEY or rabbit trail down the last half of the week with the two witnesses. These verses are in NO WAY a part of John's chronology. So the two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the abomination, and being their 1260 days or witnessing. then, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial, they are killed. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and then rise up at the 7th vial, when ALL the old testament saints rise. It is the "last day" of the 70th week.

But 3 1/2 days after they begin to testify, the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven and the abomination occurs on earth. It is the exact midpoint of the week.

Revelation 12-16 also contains a chronology. The events of Revelation 12-13 contain a few basic things that occur at the dawn of time and the first advent, but very quickly shift to the end times 1260 days, or the last half of Daniel’s 70th week.


There is a better way of saying this. Chapter 11 was mostly God introducing John to the two witnesses. Chapter 12 is God introducing John to the dragon - and in particular what the dragon would do during the last half of the week. But in so doing, God chose to show John what the dragon DID, past tense, when Jesus was born. So 12:1-5 is another parenthesis that has no part of John's chronology. Then, in describing the dragon, a reference is made of his fall. But most of chapter 12 is midpoint chronology. The war in heaven takes place seconds after the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. Every wonder why? You see, the 7th trumpet also marks the end of one millennium and the beginning of another. It also marks the END OF THE REIGN of Satan being the god of this world. ha ha! His lease (Adam's lease that he usurped) and ENDED! the first 6000 years have ENDED, and suddenly Satan as no legal ground! He he! So Michael goes IMMEDIATELY to work casting him DOWN. Then, the first few verses of chapter 13 follow the war in heaven.



The rise of the beast from the sea describes the different facets of the antichrist’s authority. So we are essentially covering the same ground as the seals, but with more details revealed. Here we have a description of the ten horns, the false prophet, and the mark of the beast.


I hope you read this part carefully, for this is where Rosenthal and Van Kampen and still all prewrathers miss it COMPLETELY! Since the 70th week begins at the 7th seal, that means the first 6 seals are NOT IN the 70th week. Indeed, they are church age events. If we study the vision of chapters 4 & 5, we see that it is a vision of the past (just like 12:1-5). God is showing John a vision of the throne room while Jesus is still on the earth. That is why Jesus was not at first seen at the right hand of the Father. That is why "no man was found" worthy to break the seals. Jesus had not yet risen from the dead, so was not yet worthy. that is why the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, when Jesus said as soon as he went up He would send Him down. And that is why John got to see the very moment that Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. All this was written so we could see the timing of the first seal was about 33 AD. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH of Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer nations and make disciples. The next three seals, the red horse, the black horse, and the pale horse, are the devil's attempt to STOP the church. But of course He failed completely. There is no nation under the sun where there are not born again people. So the truth is, by the time we get to chapter 13, the seals are LONG OVER. Chapter 13 has nothing at all to do with the seals.

A
fter this, we transition into chapter 14 which contains a description of the 144,000 on Mount Zion. So this is another parallel passage to the previous chronology.


NEGATORY!! This is in perfect chronology! At first the 144,000 were sealed for their protection during the trumpets. But then they are RAPTURED and in chapter 14 are seen in heaven around the throne of God. After all, they were called FIRSTFRUITS, meaning, they would get there FIRST. So this is not parallel to anything.

I view the details of Revelation 14 to be more information on what we already know, just like Revelation 12-13 was more information concerning the antichrist and the suffering of the saints that we saw in Revelation 6.


But Rev. 6 was CHURCH AGE suffering and had nothing at all to do with the 7th week. The martyrs in the 5th seal are church age martyrs and are told that they must wait until the FINAL CHURCH AGE MARTYR. So what would make the final martyr of the church age? Of course the END of the church age. It ENDS at the 6th seal - the very next event from the 5th seal. And the raptured church is seen in heaven in chapter 7. Don't be thrown off by the two words, "great tribulation." John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less got to the midpoint and the days following when there would be days of great tribulation greater than any other time. No, these people NEVER SAW THE BEAST! It is 3 1/2 years too soon to see the beast. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be being killed for their testimony around the world. It is like that in half the world today. Jesus did NOT put a title on the last half of the week: "great tribulation." When he mentioned those words, He said "THOSE DAYS." "Tribulation cannot get any greater than when someone is killed for their testimony: they cannot be killed twice - so it could not get greater.


Revelation 14 has the three angelic announcements. Then there is a clear description of the rapture, which I started this thread to highlight that idea.


I believe you are mistaken. the timing is wrong. This is not the church being harvested. But you are right in a way, for after the rapture at the 6th seal, MILLIONS will turn to the Lord. But they will all be put to death by the Beast. This is the first harvest. It is a harvest of the righteous.

Then immediately after this, there is an event known as the great winepress of God’s wrath. This is showing us that the wrath of God follows the rapture.

Sorry, but God's wrath was felt in the trumpet judgments. Yes, God is STILL ANGRY. But I believe this scene is given as a prophecy. Corn may have been harvested with a sickle, but not humans. This scene is highly symbolic, and I believe also prophetic. For the biggest part of the harvest of the wicked will come when Jesus comes, at the battle of Armageddon, and the parable of the tares that I believe will take place at His coming. So I think these scenes in chapter 14 are prophetic and symbolic.


Just as Revelation 7 showed two different groups of people, one in heaven and one on earth, so Revelation 14-15 shows the same. There are the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-5, then in Revelation 15, we see the church victorious over the beast, but standing in heaven. Following this, the bowls will be poured out on the earth which are described as God’s wrath. At the seventh bowl, “It is finished.” This would lead us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week, and the end of the reign of the beast, so ending the 42 months of authority.


You must remember, none of the vials have been poured out yet. The beast is now perfecting his killing machine, and is just about to reach the peak of his murderous reign. Those seen in chapter 15 have been put to death by the beast. They are 70th week martyrs. God begins to pour out the vials when the killing is at its peak, and God's anger hits a peak! The vials are to SHORTEN the day of GT. And indeed they will. By the time a few of the vials are poured out, the armies of the beast that do his bidding are rendered HELPLESS. So the killing stops. The Beast will still have his 42 months, but he is rendered HELPLESS by the vials. So his 42 months goes all the way to chapter 19, when he is caught. You will notice that his 42 months were the LAST of the five mentions of the last 3 1/2 years.

In short, Revelation 6-11 describes a chronology, which is basically the events of the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. Revelation 12-16 also describes a chronology, which is also the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, with a couple of brief exceptions at the very beginning.

I disagree totally. John's chronology is STRAIGHT, but with some parenthesis.

After chapter 16 concludes, the angel takes John on a tour to help him understand things better. He sees a vision of the prostitute which helps him to explain the nature of the beast.

Babylon the Great is the city of Jerusalem ONLY during the time that the world is deceived by the Beast and the false prophet that are residing there. OF COURSE anyone coming in the place of Jesus MUST come to Jerusalem. Chapters 17 and 18 shows John a close up view of the destruction of Jerusalem. While the Beast lived there, UNTOLD billions of dollars were spent on riches sent to Jerusalem. After all, He owns all the Arab oil! So we get a close up view of what the 7th vial did.


He sees a vision of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Of course the marriage MUST WAIT until the day of the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. They will get resurrection bodies too, and will be escorted to heaven to the marriage. They will NOT be left out! Notice that this wedding and supper are IN HEAVEN just before Jesus gets on the white horse. This one event shows the fallacy of a post trib rapture of the church: they would MISS the wedding.


He sees a vision of Armageddon. He sees the New Jerusalem, the new heaven, and the new earth. All of these can be inserted back into the chronology which was revealed in Revelation 6-11 and 12-16, which both happen concurrently.


Absolutely NOT. These events come AFTER the 70th week.

With this basic foundation, now we can discuss how the trumpets and bowls occur in a parallel fashion. There is no evidence in the book of Revelation that the bowls occur in the 30 days following Daniel’s 70th week. But if there are any questions or objections that need to be covered first, I will address them.


Sorry, but neither John nor the Holy Spirit was confused. The trumpet are sounded in the FIRST HALF of the week, and the vials come in the SECOND HALF.

Coop
lecoope
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby lecoope on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:42 pm

I forgot to click "notify me."

Coop
lecoope
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Hello lecoope,

Just a reminder that the PreWrath forum is for those with this view of the rapture and no opposing views are permitted. Your post lends itself to more of a debate than agreement with the PreWrath position while the purpose of this forum is a safe area for discussing this position.

You may want to begin a thread in the Prophecy Debate forum and invite opposing views.

Thanks!
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby lecoope on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:07 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Hello lecoope,

Just a reminder that the PreWrath forum is for those with this view of the rapture and no opposing views are permitted. Your post lends itself to more of a debate than agreement with the PreWrath position while the purpose of this forum is a safe area for discussing this position.

You may want to begin a thread in the Prophecy Debate forum and invite opposing views.

Thanks!



Ah!! So sorry!!

Coop
lecoope
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:22 am

Hi Orange,

You’ve really got to hold to the sixth seal/cosmic signs from Matthew 24:29-31 parallel. That’s the hinge point for chronology across the board.


"I" certainly do hold to this parallel, but the problem is that when you point this out to a dispensationalist they pull out the "Matthew 24 is only for Jewish people" card. It's exactly like the "tribulation saints" card they pull out when you attempt to address the fifth seal martyrs. They've chopped the Bible up into so many pieces ("dispensations") it's like the king's men trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again when they try and assemble the book of Revelation.

At the sixth seal, the nations want to be hidden from the One who sits on the throne and from the Lamb. They obviously see Him.


I would also add, if I may, that Rev. 6:15-16 testifies to the idea of who they are: "earthdwellers" (katoikeo). What they are: ashamed. And where they are ultimately going: second death.

On page 3, Mr. Rosenthal makes the point that Rev. 14 is when the 144,000 are standing with Jesus after the seven trumpet judgments. My guess is he means after the trumpet and bowl judgments (since the sounding of the seventh trumpet, according to the classic prewrath theory, opens the seven bowls), is this what he's implying?


I don’t think so. If you read through this thread, I am arguing against Rosenthal’s classic view. When Marv gets to chapter 14, he is on the verge of seeing things in a breakthrough way, but he has chronological baggage in my humble opinion. He really means “after the trumpet judgments”. He doesn’t believe the bowl judgments have occurred yet since he places them after the 1260 day period.


I went back and reread Rosenthal's article and think I see the reason he places all seven bowl judgments after the seven trumpets. He takes the word "eschatos" (last) from Rev. 15:1 and assumes this to mean there were plagues that preceded the bowl judgments.

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Rev. 15:1)

If you take a look at the Greek word "eschatos" though, you will find it can also mean "extreme".

εσχατος eschatos {es'-khat-os} a superlative probably from 2192 (in the sense of contiguity); TDNT - 2:697,264; adj AV - last 46, lowest 2, uttermost 2, last state 2, ends 1, latter end 1; 54 1) extreme 1a) last in time or in place 1b) last in a series of places 1c) last in a temporal succession 2) the last 2a) last, referring to time 2b) of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth 2c) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest

The clause "for in them is filled up the wrath of God" would seem to support this idea. Unlike the seven trumpet judgments, which are mixtures of God's plagues that result in "thirds" being harmed, the seven bowls effect all.

Hey Orange, what does Rosenthal say about the martyrs standing on the sea of glass in Rev. 15:2-3? Does he believe they stand on the sea of glass after the trumpet judgments like the 144,000 with the Lamb on Mt. Zion in Rev. 14:1?

Also, you might want to check out how a Hebrew Bible translates the word "shortened" in Matt. 24:22 and "reap" in Rev. 14:15-16. It might be the same word.

קצר qatsar {kaw-tsar'} a primitive root; TWOT - 2061,2062; v AV - reap 22, reaper 8, shortened 5, shorter 2, discouraged 1, lothed 1, straitened 1, misc 9; 49 1) to be short, be impatient, be vexed, be grieved 1a) (Qal) to be short 1b) (Piel) to shorten 1c) (Hiphil) to shorten 2) to reap, harvest 2a) (Qal) to reap, harvest 2b) (Hiphil) to reap, harvest
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:17 pm

"I" certainly do hold to this parallel, but the problem is that when you point this out to a dispensationalist they pull out the "Matthew 24 is only for Jewish people" card.


Perhaps this post of mine will help. I wrote it in response to this very assertion back in 2007.

http://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/not-just-for-israel/

Alan Kurschner liked the article and put up a link to it on PreWrath Rapture Dot Com. He had a disagreement with one of my points which led to one of the weirdest conversations that I’ve ever had about the preaching of the gospel.

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2007/11/a_few_reasons_why_the_olivet_discourse_a.php

It's exactly like the "tribulation saints" card they pull out when you attempt to address the fifth seal martyrs.


I know. Believe me, I know. It’s presumption again and again. Doesn’t Acts 14:22 make us all tribulation saints? With Revelation 6-7, that becomes more difficult. You’ve got pre-tribbers who assert that the rapture has already happened, so they see everything through a certain lens. On the other hand, you’ve got people like us who assert that it hasn’t happened, so we see everything through our lens. The only solution to the “chopping up of scripture” is to point to the overall unity of several themes. For instance, the resurrection is shown in Isaiah 25:8 and is quoted by Paul in I Corinthians 15:51-55 when describing the resurrection of the church (most pretribbers agree that this is the rapture). The resurrection blessing of wiping away tears from all faces is what the great multitude is experiencing in Revelation 7:17, thereby establishing a better basis for identifying the great multitude as the church. Of course, many will still divide these scriptures up and say they don’t apply, but you never know who is reading what you write.

Hey Orange, what does Rosenthal say about the martyrs standing on the sea of glass in Rev. 15:2-3? Does he believe they stand on the sea of glass after the trumpet judgments like the 144,000 with the Lamb on Mt. Zion in Rev. 14:1?


He says surprisingly little. I dug out my back issues and I remember thinking at the time I first read this article that I was truly surprised at how little he interacted with Revelation 15. In fact, one issue discusses chapter 14, then the next issue goes right to the bowls. His comments on chapter 15 are focused on the description of the bowls and how they relate to the chronology that he tries to establish putting them in the 30 days following the 1260 days. The majority of the article is focused on the bowls but there is this little tidbit which gives very little insight into how he might view this group:

So complete will be Christ’s triumph that they (those who had gotten victory over the Antichrist) “sing the song of Moses the servant of God ,and the song of the Lamb” (Revelation 15:3). One is immediately reminded of the author of the epistle to the Hebrews who wrote of Moses who was a faithful servant and of Christ who was worthy of even more glory because He was faithful as a son (Hebrews 3:5-6.

The song of Moses being sung by those who had gotten the victory over the Antichrist probably refers to the song that Moses and the children of Israel sang at the Red Sea where they triumphed over Pharaoh and his soldiers (Exodus 15). It could, however, also be referring to the song that Moses wrote near the end of this life in which he spoke of God’s wondrous faithfulness to His people (Deuteronomy 32).


But leading up to this brief description of this group, Rosenthal had been discussing how the seventh trumpet leads into the seven bowls. The triumph that he writes of at the beginning is probably concerning the declaration that “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ”.

Also, you might want to check out how a Hebrew Bible translates the word "shortened" in Matt. 24:22 and "reap" in Rev. 14:15-16. It might be the same word.


Any ideas who I could ask?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. Here’s my study on the Song of Moses.

http://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/the-song-of-moses/
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby lecoope on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:37 pm

Maybe a silly question:

Since John has the bowls long AFTER the trumpets, why would anyone question that when they begin to happen in real life, they will come long after the last trumpet has sounded?

If we look at Rev. 12:6, the woman (those living in Judea) fleeing, she is fleeing because she has just seen the abomination. Daniel tells us that the abomination divides the week into two equal halves. So the abomination comes at the exact midpoint. There can be no doubt of this. Therefore, the 7th trumpet is sounded at or just before the exact midpoint. The vials do not come until chapter 16, AFTER the events in chapter 11 have long since happened.

Coop
lecoope
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Coop (or LeCoope)-

I see that you have already been instructed by the Site Administrator that this is the PreWrath section. Starting a debate here against the PreWrath position is not allowed. Your query may seem to be simply questioning, but you have assertions that you make that are contrary to PreWrath, which seems like you are just trying to start a debate. If you are interested in an answer to the question, I would suggest you read through this thread in its entirety first. You should become aware of the topic that is being discussed so that you can intelligently interact here. If you had read through the thread, you would have read my response to this very issue. Here is what I wrote concerning the ministry of the two witnesses and why it must be located in the final 3 ½ years rather than the first 3 ½ years.

The seventh trumpet terminates the ministry of the two witnesses. Some will say that the two witnesses prophesy during the first half of the week. But look at Revelation 11:1-3. The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days, during which time the holy city (Jerusalem) is trampled for 42 months. Once the 42 months are over (which is also the 1260 days of ministry of the two witnesses), the holy city will no longer be trampled down. So the sounding of the seventh trumpet concludes the time of the trampling down of the holy city by making the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. Further, Luke 21:24 states that Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the end of the age. So, the 42 months are the final 42 months at the end of the age. After that, Jerusalem is liberated from Gentile dominion. Jerusalem now is actually still under partial Gentile control since Jordan has authority over the temple mount and the dome of the rock inhibits undisputed Jewish worship. Israel will not regain full control of the temple mount according to Luke 21:24, at least not until the seventh trumpet sounds. That begins the millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem, or the New Jerusalem actually.


If you would like to start a debate, Abiding in His Word has given you a suggestion. I’m all for a good debate, but this particular section is for those who want to avoid a debate and discuss things on a level where we already have a particular foundation in common.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby lecoope on Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:23 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Coop (or LeCoope)-

I see that you have already been instructed by the Site Administrator that this is the PreWrath section. Starting a debate here against the PreWrath position is not allowed. Your query may seem to be simply questioning, but you have assertions that you make that are contrary to PreWrath, which seems like you are just trying to start a debate. If you are interested in an answer to the question, I would suggest you read through this thread in its entirety first. You should become aware of the topic that is being discussed so that you can intelligently interact here. If you had read through the thread, you would have read my response to this very issue. Here is what I wrote concerning the ministry of the two witnesses and why it must be located in the final 3 ½ years rather than the first 3 ½ years.

The seventh trumpet terminates the ministry of the two witnesses. Some will say that the two witnesses prophesy during the first half of the week. But look at Revelation 11:1-3. The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days, during which time the holy city (Jerusalem) is trampled for 42 months. Once the 42 months are over (which is also the 1260 days of ministry of the two witnesses), the holy city will no longer be trampled down. So the sounding of the seventh trumpet concludes the time of the trampling down of the holy city by making the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. Further, Luke 21:24 states that Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the end of the age. So, the 42 months are the final 42 months at the end of the age. After that, Jerusalem is liberated from Gentile dominion. Jerusalem now is actually still under partial Gentile control since Jordan has authority over the temple mount and the dome of the rock inhibits undisputed Jewish worship. Israel will not regain full control of the temple mount according to Luke 21:24, at least not until the seventh trumpet sounds. That begins the millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem, or the New Jerusalem actually.


If you would like to start a debate, Abiding in His Word has given you a suggestion. I’m all for a good debate, but this particular section is for those who want to avoid a debate and discuss things on a level where we already have a particular foundation in common.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman


Yes, I understood and apologized. But I have been too busy to start a debate at this time. Sorry

Coop
lecoope
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby lecoope on Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:33 pm

lecoope wrote:
The Orange Mailman wrote:Coop (or LeCoope)-

I see that you have already been instructed by the Site Administrator that this is the PreWrath section. Starting a debate here against the PreWrath position is not allowed. Your query may seem to be simply questioning, but you have assertions that you make that are contrary to PreWrath, which seems like you are just trying to start a debate. If you are interested in an answer to the question, I would suggest you read through this thread in its entirety first. You should become aware of the topic that is being discussed so that you can intelligently interact here. If you had read through the thread, you would have read my response to this very issue. Here is what I wrote concerning the ministry of the two witnesses and why it must be located in the final 3 ½ years rather than the first 3 ½ years.

The seventh trumpet terminates the ministry of the two witnesses. Some will say that the two witnesses prophesy during the first half of the week. But look at Revelation 11:1-3. The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days, during which time the holy city (Jerusalem) is trampled for 42 months. Once the 42 months are over (which is also the 1260 days of ministry of the two witnesses), the holy city will no longer be trampled down. So the sounding of the seventh trumpet concludes the time of the trampling down of the holy city by making the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. Further, Luke 21:24 states that Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the end of the age. So, the 42 months are the final 42 months at the end of the age. After that, Jerusalem is liberated from Gentile dominion. Jerusalem now is actually still under partial Gentile control since Jordan has authority over the temple mount and the dome of the rock inhibits undisputed Jewish worship. Israel will not regain full control of the temple mount according to Luke 21:24, at least not until the seventh trumpet sounds. That begins the millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem, or the New Jerusalem actually.


If you would like to start a debate, Abiding in His Word has given you a suggestion. I’m all for a good debate, but this particular section is for those who want to avoid a debate and discuss things on a level where we already have a particular foundation in common.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman


Yes, I understood and apologized. But I have been too busy to start a debate at this time. Sorry

Coop



Sorry, when I see silliness, I feel I MUST answer. I will just not open this website again.
So sorry to ruffle prewrath feathers. It was not my intent at all. I understand rules.

Coop
lecoope
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:13 am

Also, you might want to check out how a Hebrew Bible translates the word "shortened" in Matt. 24:22 and "reap" in Rev. 14:15-16. It might be the same word.



Any ideas who I could ask?


Hey Orange,

Here's one website:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... rewnt.html

The hebrew word "qatsar" does appear in Matthew 24:22 and Rev. 14:15-16. It has different prefixes attached to it, but it's there. For those who want to check it out for themselves, keep in mind that Hebrew is read right to left.

Also, one other reason the seventh trumpet is not depicted in Rev. 12:12 can be found in Luke 6:20-27.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (Rev. 12:12)

Revelation 12:12 is expounded upon in Luke 6:20-38. First, Jesus deals with the heaven dwellers in Luke 6:20-23:

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. (Luke 6:20-23)

Although Luke 6:22 predicts how the "blessed" heaven dwellers will be weeping at the onset of the great tribulation, Luke 6:23 tells them why they should rejoice--because great is their reward in heaven.

Jesus deals with the earth dwellers in Luke 6:24-26:

But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Although the earth dwellers will be celebrating, it will be a short lived celebration. Obviously they have no clue that their actual condition is "woeful" because they don't realize the devil has been cast down from heaven to earth. The "woe" of Rev. 12:12 shouldn't be confused with one of the three "woes" outlined in the last three trumpet judgments, but it must for dispensationalists in order to fit their pretrib presupposition. The reason their condition is "woeful" is not because of the seventh trumpet judgment; it's because they don't have ears to hear.

But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you... (Luke 6:27)

Only the faithful remnant of the seven churches have ears to hear. (Rev. 2:7,11,17,29; Rev. 3:6,13,20,22; Rev. 13:9-10; Rev. 14:9-11). And yes, this includes remnant of Philadelphia (Rev. 3:13) which will be exempted from the "hour of temptation".

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Joh. 10:27-28)

Hey Orange, what do you make of Rev. 14:17-20 and Joel 3:13-14? Are they depicting the same thing? Any opinions on where the "valley of decision" might be?

Thanks
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:17 pm

Hey Orange, what do you make of Rev. 14:17-20 and Joel 3:13-14? Are they depicting the same thing? Any opinions on where the "valley of decision" might be?


Hold on, let me check Mo's book. (Turns to page 43)

Of course they are the same event. Where is this event held? Hold on. Let me look here. (Turns to page 47)

It seems to me like this valley is right outside of Jerusalem.

Seriously, my own thoughts do not differ greatly from Mo's in this area. While I remain open to persuasion if another good solid position comes along, this idea that Mo has is quite solid in reconciling all the passages. Here is a scenario that may or may not be a good amalgamation of all the passages:

Some of the nations have gathered against Jerusalem to attack the nation of Israel. This is close to the point of Israel’s repentance. As the nations advance, Israel begins to cry out to God for help. In true repentance they turn to the God of Israel in faith, many of them realizing that Jesus is the God of Israel. This repentance sparks the jealousy of the LORD to act on behalf of His people. These nations that are gathered outside of Jerusalem in a specific location (perhaps a valley), will have the opportunity to turn back since they will see (by the cosmic signs) that God is about to enact vengeance. In their hardness of heart, many will continue against the nation of Israel. The Day of the LORD begins with the first trumpet and the great winepress resulting in a very specific phenomenon of blood flowing from all the slaughtered armies that have gathered. The Day of the LORD continues with plague after plague, some foretold in the trumpets and bowls, some summoned by the two witnesses. Satan unleashes a final deception to gather all the nations of the earth to Armageddon. At the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl (which occur within the same time frame in my opinion) the final battle of this age is fought. Jesus speaks and they die. The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. The cities of the nations fall. Babylon the Great has a special final destruction that occurs at this time as well.

Conversation with Mo and the two books (well one is more like a pamphlet) have persuaded me that this is a fairly good view to hold. Like I wrote, I would be open to hearing the evidence of someone who holds a different view, but this seems very straightforward.

Any other questions that Mo can…

I mean, that I can answer.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:13 pm

Alright! I'm excited. I just finished the PreWrath section of a new book entitled Three Views on the Rapture. This is an update to a Zondervan book. The previous three position were PreTrib, MidTrib, and PostTrib. Now the three positions represented are PreTrib, PreWrath, and PostTrib. The editor is Alan Hultberg who also represents the PreWrath position. I am two thirds of the way through the book having finished the PreTrib section and PreWrath section, rebuttals included.

Why am I excited you ask? Well, thank you for asking first of all. I am excited because Alan Hultberg in his thesis presents Revelation 14:14-16 as proof of a PreWrath rapture. In fact, it is one of his main tenets against the PostTrib position. I'm not going to reproduce his reasoning here since the book is still so new, I would like you all to purchase it. But I will say that in the rebuttals section that Blaising (pretrib) and Moo (posttrib) really do not have anything substantial to refute his position in presenting the harvest of Revelation 14:14-16 as the rapture. The best Blaising can do is say that it's not the rapture and that an angel wouldn't tell Jesus what to do. Moo acknowledges the possibility, but tries to undermine chronology and say that while John saw the events happen in that order (tribulation, rapture, then wrath), they didn't necessarily happen in that order.

This is exciting to me because a major thesis of mine is in print. I don't know of anyone else who has set this idea forth as evidence of a PreWrath Rapture as I have. But now I'm not alone anymore. Hultberg deserves a little attention. I wonder if I should try to contact him?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:46 am

Any other questions that Mo can…

I mean, that I can answer.


Hey Orange,

Yeah, I would have to agree with Mo's assertions that Joel 3:13-14 and Rev. 14:17-20 takes place near Jerusalem. And it would seem to draw on the first trumpet in Rev. 8:7. There's no mistaking that the city of Jerusalem is in view in Rev. 14:20. But what about this heavenly event depicted in Rev.8:3-5. How do you interpret this passage? It would seem to me these passages somehow draw on Korah's rebellion after the earth swallowed him and his men alive (Num. 16:31-32 [obviously draws on Rev. 12:16]). After Korah and his followers are swallowed up (verses 31-32) everyone is frightened and in verse 46 it speaks of wrath going out, and this altar is used to make atonement to stay the plague, verse 48.

1. So I guess my question is, does Rev. 8:3-5 depict something that happens on the earth or is this passage simply setting up what is about to occur when the first trumpet is opened?

2. After the seventh trumpet sounds in Rev. 11:15, we are told in Rev. 11:19 that there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. Is Revelation 11:19 depicting what already occurred in Rev. 16:18,21 when the seventh bowl was poured out (voices, thunderings, lightnings, and a great earthquake...great hail)?

3. This question is pretty weird but it's kind of gnawing at me. Is there a connection between God resting on the 7th day of Creation and the 7th Seal being a Sabbath for saints in the sense that they are immune to the wrath of God?

Thanks
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:33 pm

Hey Rizen-

Yes, I agree that Korah’s rebellion is a primary influence in the symbology here. I just read through the passage again and it seems uncanny that words like “wrath” and “censer” and “plague” are all used there and when we get to the book of Revelation we have the same terminology. The circumstances are different, so we have to be careful not to force one text upon another.

1. So I guess my question is, does Rev. 8:3-5 depict something that happens on the earth or is this passage simply setting up what is about to occur when the first trumpet is opened?


The chronology of this passage has to be taken in an overall sense. First, the cosmic signs at the sixth seal show that the Son of Man is about to come. But then there are certain events which take place to show before this “wrath” spoken of by the nations in Revelation 6:27 breaks forth, that certain will be exempted from it. The four angels hold back even the slightest wind from blowing in order that 144,000 may be sealed. It’s interesting that harm to the earth, sea, and trees is prevented until after this sealing. So once this sealing occurs, then harm (wrath) will come to the earth, sea, and trees. Note trumpets 1-4 and the number of times that fire, brimstone, and smoke comes upon the earth, sea, and trees. After the sealing of the 144,000, then we have the rapture of the church, Revelation 7:9-17.

After these events, we have the episode in question. But wait, we should back up even further, during the great tribulation depicted at the fifth seal, the saints had been praying for vengeance, Revelation 6:10. They were told that they would have to wait just a bit longer until more of their Christian brothers were killed. It’s not that the prayers won’t be answered, but a question of timing. So now, we see God’s wrath has been announced. God has made the necessary provisions upon the earth to preserve a remnant through the wrath. The seven trumpets are dispersed. Then as these seven trumpets are being held in the hands of seven angels, another angel comes out. The prayers of the saints are offered along with incense on the golden altar.

This golden censer that the angel has is filled with fire from the altar. The time has come. The wrath was prayed for. It was delayed slightly. The wrath was announced. It was delayed slightly in order that a remnant might be preserved through the wrath. Now there is no more delay in this wrath. The censer is filled with fire from the altar, then cast into the earth. What was once a heavenly symbol is now present here on the earth to enact the vengeance prayed for by the saints and announced by God. Then ensuing description of the trumpets shows the destruction to the earth, sea, and trees, altering the face of the earth and heaven showing the transition into the age to come foretold in II Peter 3:10. So to answer directly, it is setting up what is about to occur, I don’t believe there will be a physical censer thrown to the earth. But the physical location for the wrath is here on the earth, no way around it.

2. After the seventh trumpet sounds in Rev. 11:15, we are told in Rev. 11:19 that there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail. Is Revelation 11:19 depicting what already occurred in Rev. 16:18,21 when the seventh bowl was poured out (voices, thunderings, lightnings, and a great earthquake...great hail)?


I believe the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl are parallels. They describe either two different events that happen relatively closer together, or they describe the same event from two different points of view. Both of them bring to an end the world system of this age. The seventh trumpet shows that it transitions into the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ. The seventh bowl announces the final destruction of Babylon which will be further explained in chapters 17-19.

3. This question is pretty weird but it's kind of gnawing at me. Is there a connection between God resting on the 7th day of Creation and the 7th Seal being a Sabbath for saints in the sense that they are immune to the wrath of God?


This is a very good question, especially for those who study the book of Hebrews wondering how the Sabbath rest fits into our eschatological scheme. There is a connection. It has to do with the futurity of Hebrews 4:9-10. I have written a blog post on the book of Hebrews from a premillennial perspective. If you can’t find it, PM me and I’ll send you the link. The idea in II Thessalonians 1:7 encompasses the idea of the Sabbath rest. Revelation 7:17 contains aspects of resurrection blessings spoken of in Isaiah 25:8 along with Revelation 21:4. The New Jerusalem contains that promised Sabbath rest. Further, the OT passage that the writer to the Hebrews is quoting is Psalm 95:11, which is part of a prophetic apocalypse contained in Psalm 92-99. I have written on that as well and I’m pretty sure I made the connection that the promised Sabbath rest spoken of there is the promised land rest for the nation of Israel as the Messiah comes in judgment.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby rizen on Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:03 pm

Hello Orange,

Excellent answers! And yes, I read and bookmarked your blog post on "The Book of Hebrews from a Pre-Millennial Perspective" (Oct/2010). Man there's a lot to chew on there. It's going to take me a while to absorb it all, but I can definitely see the connection between the Sabbath and the 7th seal in Heb 4:9-16.

I've been meaning to ask you about your take on the 3rd seal, specifically with reference to how you think it might apply to the two reapings in Rev. 14:14-20. In Rev. 14:16 there is a grain harvest and in verse 18 there is a [clustered] grape harvest. I can't help but notice how these two reapings might be connected back to the 3rd seal, specifically the "oil and wine" (grapes) and the "barley and wheat" (grain).

In Dan. 1 we read where Daniel and his friends forsook the king's meat for ten days. Instead Daniel and his friends ate pulse or vegetables (sown seed). At the end of those ten days, Daniel and his friends were found ten times better than those who ate the king's meat. Is it possible that when the third seal is opened, God is telling us to forsake the "oil and wine" (king's meat) or worldly pleasures (Pro. 21:17; Psa. 141:4) for the grain? And at the end of the great tribulation ("ten days") we will be infinitely better off than those who chose the pleasures of this world? Proverbs 23:6-7 seems to hint at the idea that as a man thinks, so he is. If that is the case, then the grain harvest would represent those who have forsaken their lives in this world while the grape clusters would represent those who sought the pleasures of this world. I was wondering if you ever considered anything like this before? (A simple "no" will suffice...lol).

Also, is this a fair analogy to draw:

What the Great Tribulation is to the Church (primarily Gentile, but also Jewish), the Day of the Lord is to the Israelites (primarily Jewish, but also Gentile).

Thanks in advance
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:34 pm

In Dan. 1 we read where Daniel and his friends forsook the king's meat for ten days. Instead Daniel and his friends ate pulse or vegetables (sown seed). At the end of those ten days, Daniel and his friends were found ten times better than those who ate the king's meat. Is it possible that when the third seal is opened, God is telling us to forsake the "oil and wine" (king's meat) or worldly pleasures (Pro. 21:17; Psa. 141:4) for the grain? And at the end of the great tribulation ("ten days") we will be infinitely better off than those who chose the pleasures of this world? Proverbs 23:6-7 seems to hint at the idea that as a man thinks, so he is. If that is the case, then the grain harvest would represent those who have forsaken their lives in this world while the grape clusters would represent those who sought the pleasures of this world. I was wondering if you ever considered anything like this before? (A simple "no" will suffice...lol).


No.

Also, is this a fair analogy to draw:

What the Great Tribulation is to the Church (primarily Gentile, but also Jewish), the Day of the Lord is to the Israelites (primarily Jewish, but also Gentile).

Thanks in advance


Hello Rizen-

I’m assuming I can use more than just a simple “no” here. But the answer is still “no”. :boxer: If I may, I’ll explain my reasoning. The great tribulation is against Christians, both Gentile and Israelite. I believe it will be against unbelieving Israelites as well. When Israel repents, then Christ returns. Acts 3:19-21 and Joel 2:12-14, 18; but the foundation is back in Deuteronomy 30:1-10 (worth reading). I view the fire in Zechariah 13:9 as being the great tribulation. So once Israel repents, Christ returns which begins the Day of the LORD. But now 144,000 Israelites are supernaturally protected. This was not true of the church. The scope is different. Now God will be taking the 144,000 and transitioning into the age to come. For some time I have thought that Psalm 46 adequately serves as the voice of the 144,000 during the Day of the LORD.

As for the first part, where a simple “no” sufficed, :a2: I would be willing to turn that over in my mind to some extent. But I don’t think that there would be a parallel with the third seal and the two reapings. I see what you are getting at though, and it is not really a parallel, but a connection between types of food analogies. Like I wrote, I haven’t considered it, but I would be willing to think on it.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Pre-wrath view only

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest