Anti-Christ's fatal wound

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Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:48 am

This might end up being an opinion question, but I don't think it has to be, but here goes...(don't you love disclaimers before a question?)

Revelation 13:3 and 14 tell us the Anti-Christ will have a fatal head wound that is healed. Taking Revelation 17:8-11 into account and whatever else scripture you want, do you see this as:

a.) a recent wound, like a world leader gets shot, dies and then resurrects
b.) a recent wound, where he swoons but doesn't really die
c.) a wound which is hidden but when he reveals it, it will prove that he is a past, dead world leader who was brought back to life (i.e. Hitler or Nero)

I wouldn't mind an explanation with your letter...

And just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, Orange is allowed to use as many words as he wants to when he answers...if he answers...

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Jericho on Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:40 pm

A)Because Satan likes to copy God. We see it in his unholy version of the trinity (Satan, Anti-Christ, False Prophet). So the AC rising from the dead is an imitation of Jesus' resurrection IMO.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Finaldash on Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:47 pm

I kind of like Herb's take on this.
On gen. 3:15 it shows how the serpent's head was wounded by Jesus.
Now that serpent has now grown into a dragon and has been healed.

I'll try to find his post on this later I kind of have a slow connection.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:22 pm

Sword of Gideon - what do you think Revelation 17:8-11 mean in regards to the AC? I agree with you - he is going to be a really cheap imitation - his death and resurrection will have nothing to do with bearing God's wrath on behalf of His children!

Finaldash - I would like to read Herb's view - I guess my first response is that the Dragon is Satan and the beast is AC - so the fatal wound is not on the Dragon's head but the beast's - did Herb see the AC as an actual man?

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:14 pm

Is the head that is wounded the antichrist, or is it one of the empires? Dave B. and I mixed it up over this one. Check it out here.

http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com ... emmas.html

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:37 pm

Interesting discussion...so...18 months later, where do you stand, Orange? I doubt your study stopped there...I guess I should have added d.) none of the above
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:07 pm

Remember that one Overcomer?


Oh yeah...just reread the discussion and my head is spinning again...

Rev. 13:12 & 14 when taken at face value both seem to say that the head wound is suffered by an individual, the beast, AKA antichrist of course...

I've always thought Rev. 13:3 indicated a recent wound...with the whole earth being amazed it seems to indicate he was alive, killed, and then comes to life again.

I guess I lean towards a) Nike...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Finaldash on Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:56 am

nike wrote:Finaldash - I would like to read Herb's view - I guess my first response is that the Dragon is Satan and the beast is AC - so the fatal wound is not on the Dragon's head but the beast's - did Herb see the AC as an actual man?

nike

Well I wish Herb was here to defend himself. All I can do is copy and paste what he wrote. He believed that the Beast is both an evil king and his kingdom.
Well here's an excerpt from his book:Rec.666 on Ch.4 http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/origin ... _ch_4.html
Chapter 4
Sign 3: The B … B … B … Beast! (Revelation 13:1-2)

Now we get to the spooky part. The beast of Revelation makes his grand entrance. John wrote:

And he (the dragon – Satan) stood on the sand of the sea shore. And I saw
a beast coming up out of the sea having ten horns and seven heads, and on
his horns were ten diadems (crowns), and on his heads were blasphemous
names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like
those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave
him his power and his throne and great authority (Revelation 13:1-2).

Once again – to identify this beast – we need to use those keys. We have learned from Key 6 to look at things from God’s point of view. And from God’s point of view a beast is an evil king and his kingdom.

But what king and kingdom could this be? This is where we can use that image of the statue King Nebuchadnezzar saw as an overlay. Remember, the statue represented the four great Gentile empires that would rise over Israel until the Messiah came. The fourth and last kingdom was Rome. This could only mean that the beast John saw rising from the sea in Revelation is some kind of revival of the Roman Empire.

This dream of the statue, however, was from a pagan king’s point of view. If you recall, we also have another picture of this last Gentile empire from God’s point of view given to Daniel. Let’s see if the beast Daniel saw representing Rome fits the description of this beast John saw in Revelation. Daniel wrote:

After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It
devoured and crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it
was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns
(Daniel 7:7).

Bingo! The beast Daniel saw had 10 horns. And the beast John saw in Revelation also had ten horns. So this 10-horned beast John saw rising from the sea must be some kind of replay of the old Roman Empire.

Yet the beast not only had 10 horns, it also had seven heads. And one of these heads had a fatal wound. John said, “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast” (Revelation 13:3).

There has been much speculation about the meaning of this head wound. A popular interpretation today is that the Antichrist will be killed and come back to life. People who hold this view believe that this coming back to life would be an attempt by Satan to duplicate Christ’s death and resurrection.

So will the Antichrist rise from the dead? If you have seen the movie, The Omega Code, this is probably what you're expecting to happen. The movie presents a fictionalized story based on many of today’s popular interpretations of Bible prophecy. The movie was well made, and I enjoyed it very much. The most powerful scene is when the Antichrist, portrayed by the great actor Michael York, awakens from the dead after receiving a fatal gunshot wound to the head.

But is this an accurate interpretation of prophecy? I have several problems with this idea. For one thing, this interpretation is based entirely on speculation. But even more importantly, it's an unnecessary speculation.

One of our keys to the prophecies in Revelation is to understand what came before. In the book of Genesis, this great red dragon is depicted as a small serpent that successfully tempts our first human ancestors to join him in his rebellion against God. Because of this evil deed, God told the serpent: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise (crush) you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel” (Genesis 3:15).

Here we find the beginning of a conflict between good and evil that is destined to span the farthest reaches of human development and history. In Genesis, we see God beginning a process for delivering His people from the effects of their fall into sin and the power of the serpent. This Savior would be the promised seed of the woman who would someday crush the serpent’s head.

Of course, we Christians know that this Savior has already come and given that serpent of old his fatal blow. This occurred when Jesus died on the cross. Referring to His coming death and resurrection, Jesus said, “Now judgment is upon the world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:31-32).

You see, when Christ was crucified, Satan and his Roman Empire – the sixth head of the great red dragon – received their fatal head wound. This is why Jesus said after His resurrection, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth” (Matthew 28:18).

But someday, perhaps sooner than we think, the Roman Empire, with Satan himself ruling over it in the form of the Antichrist, will return (Revelation 13:1-3). And, as John said, the whole earth will be amazed.

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/origin ... _ch_4.html
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby jgilberAZ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:43 am

It's not the Roman empire that will recover from a fatal head wound ... it's the Ottoman empire.

Rome never ruled Babylon (the head of the statue). The Ottoman Empire did.

And, there is talk these days of reviving the Ottoman Caliphate.

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2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby plalgum on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:00 am

If Ariel Sharon was to come out of his coma/stroke like a new man,that would be interesting.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Princess of Heaven on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:24 am

plalgum wrote:If Ariel Sharon was to come out of his coma/stroke like a new man,that would be interesting.

in deed it would
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:29 pm

Thanks, Finaldash, for posting Herb's writings. I do remember now reading that. It is an interesting theory - my struggle is that Revelation seems to make a clear distinction between the dragon and the beast and the fatal wound is not a part of the dragon, though the crushed head is...am I saying this right?

I guess I lean towards c.) I'm with Overcomer as far as taking a more literal stance on Rev. 13 and 17. In Rev. 17 when it says that the beast comes up from the abyss - this seems to indicate to me that he is someone who has spent some time in Hades. I think he is one of the kings who persecuted Israel and then died. He is brought back to life and though in Dave B's and Oranges' discussion they said it would be hard to prove if someone said they were Antiochus Epiphanes raised from the dead, I think if Adolph Hitler raised from the dead, as he claimed he would, and then a little delusion was sprinkled on top, it wouldn't be that hard to have the whole world drop-jawed and amazed...

I guess the reason I asked was because I got jumped on the other day for believing in reincarnation, because I said that AC would be someone who was raised from the dead - that is what a FATAL wound is, right? (And wasn't Lazarus raised from the dead, and the Roman soldier's daughter, and Elisha raised a little boy, right?)

One more question - if you think he is a current individual who would die and then rise, does that happen before or after the mid-point desecration of the Temple? (because wouldn't we be pretty suspect if he did it before?)

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:36 pm

I don't go for the swoon theory because the word "fatal" is used. This guy was dead and will come back to life. Orange mentioned one time that Revelation deals with the last half of D's 70th week. That would put his resurrection after the midpoint...if a) is correct.

I never really looked at Rev. 17:8 before... "The beast was" - lived for a time..."is not" - died..."is about to come out of the abyss" - spent time in Hades but comes out..."will come" - live again. Is this referring to "his fatal head wound was healed" in Rev. 13:3?

I googled Hitler to try to find his claim that he would rise from the dead but could find nothing on it...was wondering Nike where you got your information. I did find this interesting article...it was 50 years ago this week that he committed suicide...

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/04/world/the-day-of-hitler-s-death-even-now-new-glimpses.html?sec=health
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:06 pm

Interesting discussion...so...18 months later, where do you stand, Orange? I doubt your study stopped there...I guess I should have added d.) none of the above


My study did actually stop there. How can I say this? There ain't nobody like Dave B. I suppose I'd be open to debating the basic tenets. Anybody care to question me on something specific?

Just so everyone understands, when we read Revelation 13, we see both the entire empire system, and we see the individual at the head of the system. How can we tell the difference? When it says, "one of its heads", how do we interpret that? Are the seven heads seven empires or are they seven kings? The most popular theory is that the seventh head is wounded being the antichrist before his head wound. Then the antichrist becomes the eighth at that point in time. The antichrist is the eighth, but he is also of the seven (or belongs to the seven). So how do we reconcile that?

If the head that is wounded is one of the empires, or perhaps a territory within the empire, how would that look? What are the mountains of Rev. 17:9, and are they the same as the kings? If they are the same, why the differentiation?

The asassination thing is pretty popular and there might be some truth to it, but I think there is something larger there because "one of the heads" would be interpreted as one of the mountains, which I believe refers to a kingdom or empire.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:29 pm

Orange,

I did see "one of his heads" in Rev. 13:3 so it makes sense that both the empire system and the individual head of the system is in mind. Doesn't Rev. 13:12 narrow it down to an individual since the term beast is used in conjunction with the fatal head wound that is healed?
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:19 pm

Rev. 13:3 - one of the heads of the main beast has a healed fatal wound, whole earth amazed and follows the beast - are they amazed because of the healed wound or because of the whole beast? (read on...)

13:4 - world worships dragon and the beast

13:5 - beast blasphemes and is arrogant, given authority to act for 42 months (at this point - a man or a nation? read on...)

13:6 - HE blasphemes against God

13:7 - HE makes war with the saints to overcome them, authority given over all men

13:8 - all on earth will worship him - specifically those NOT in the book of life (at this point it seems we are pointing to a man, not a nation - does this clear up the question in v. 3 and 5? read on...)

13:11 - another beast arises

13:12 - new beast has same authority and "makes" the earth worship the first beast - "WHOSE FATAL WOUND WAS HEALED" - again, seems that we are worshipping an arrogant, blasphemous man rather than a nation

13:13-17 - lays out the plan of the second beast - performs great signs to deceive, telling the world to worship the beast - NOT HIMSELF BUT THE OTHER BEAST - commands the world to build images, breathes life into the images, causes all to take the mark, controls buying and selling - the mark of the beast (not his name but the one he serves)

It does seem that Rev. 13 goes from describing a massive beast to focusing on just the one with the fatal but healed wound.

Orange, I think that the seven heads represent the seven leaders of nations who have oppressed Israel - the ones the Lord has used to take them into captivity. It doesn't say the seventh head is wounded but "one of the heads" is wounded. That's why I think that the eighth head is the resurrection of that specific king - altogether there will be 8 nations with leaders that the Lord specifically uses, but technically two of the heads are the same person. Rev. 17:10 says they are 7 kings, five have fallen, one is and the other has not yet come - this is consistent with the occupation at the time of Revelation's writing. Then verse 11 ways that the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth AND IS ONE OF THE SEVEN...so the eighth king will be from the menu of the first seven - specifically the one with the fatal wound to his head.

I am not sure why there are mountains and heads as well, but perhaps the mountains represents the nations themselves, as the woman sits on the mountains - maybe that shows isolation, or dependency in captivity - I really don't know, but I do believe that when it says they are 7 kings, that they are men, not empires at that point. I think we are being given specifics on who the AC will be.

I am not sure I answered any of your questions but it was a valiant effort, don't you think?

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:10 pm

Nike-

The idea of "he" is not really in the text. That's an interpretation issue. I believe the word is neuter in every case, I could be wrong though. ESV has "it" for most of those referring to the beast.

The fact that the beast is a man is not in question. The fact that the beast is also an empire with seven heads and ten horns is what I'm trying to focus on. Sometimes the focus is on the empire and sometimes the focus is on the man at the head of the empire. We have to be discerning as to which is which.

Valiant? Dave B. is valiant. I would say you are brave though. How about explaining why the dragon of Rev. 12 has seven heads and ten horns just like the beast of Rev. 13? Then how about explaining why the dragon has seven crowns on the seven horns and why the beast has ten crowns on the ten horns? And then let's really talk about the seven mountains? How about it?

Overcomer, your point about the wound being fatal narrowing it down made me look the word up. It is thanatos which refers to physical death. So that could be the tipping point.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:57 pm

Overcomer, your point about the wound being fatal narrowing it down made me look the word up. It is thanatos which refers to physical death. So that could be the tipping point.
:banana:

I thought it was valiant Nike! :hugs:
Last edited by revelation12eleven on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:31 pm

Why do you have to be so aggressive, Orange?

The dragon of Rev. 12 is Satan, because Revelation consistently uses the image of a dragon to represent Satan. The 7 empires and leaders that have tried to destroy Israel are represented by the seven heads. The 8th beast empire which is yet to come is represented by the 10 horns, therefore in Rev. 12 you see Satan supporting the beast nations, the seven having already ruled thus wearing crowns, the ten still waiting their rule. Then in Rev. 13 you see Satan watching as his beast nation arises again, this time with crowns on the horns of the final beast nation, indicating their rule was finally active.

Now you can start talking about the mountains...my head hurts...why can't I be valiant? Because I never win...?

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Finaldash on Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:29 pm

Nike, I'm quite familiar with you dads theory. It is definitely a possibility,
the only reason that some people are hung up with it is because it's Hitler.
The Jewish nation was born out of it that somehow there has to be something
relevant to Hitler. This is obviously just my opinion with no scripture back up
aside from what your dad has brought forth.

I guess this is my opportunity to thank God for your family and how He has used
the books that you and your dad have written on this side (prewrath) of the rapture
discussion.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby smackbucket on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:08 pm

Orange, Overcomer, Nike

I just skimmed the discussion you guys are having on the head wound. Gosh, I had forgotten about that long one Orange and I had a year and a half ago. It's so far from my brain that I hardly remember where I stand on the issue! Nike, I'm not sure how someone with 6 kids can find time to debate stuff like this on FP. ??? You must be a Superwoman.

It takes so much of my time to do it (if I do it right) that I feel like I'm pretty much at the end of my debating days, at least for now. Since we got Jake I just don't have the mojo it takes to spend hours typing back and forth on prophecy issues. Maybe I spend too much time with my family! :) Maybe someday I will regain the desire. Boo hoo. I hope I didn't just lose my valiant status!

Let me know when you have the head wound issue nailed down and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'll hold my breath.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:58 am

Smack - I have a feeling we might see it before we figure it out...I agree life is busy but we're always happy when you show up to throw in a few cents...Orange is the one who likes to debate...

Thanks for your kind words, Finaldash - there are many times I wish he were still around to help wade through some of these things, but we have to continue on from where he left. He would have totally loved the discussion here at FP!

Back to the head wound...

Orange, mountains? Hello?
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Tevye on Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:00 am

I'm not sure if it's been said before...
but has anyone thought of how Berlin was a head in a sense
a head of the German state, and suffered a fatal wound in WWII
and now that fatal wound has been healed?

Just wondering if it could apply.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:24 am

Hey, Tevye,

If it is a city, I don't know how the false prophet (second beast in Rev. 13) would "make the earth and all those who dwell in it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed." Has worship ever been given to a city and not an individual? What does worship of a city look like? I think we can be amazed at a revival of a nation or a city, but when it comes to worship - that type of allegiance is given to a deity or one who thinks he is a deity or close to it...Nimrod was worshipped for the protection he provided ancient Babylon, Caesar was worshipped as ruler of the Roman Empire...

People worship idols who they feel are gods, they worship people/leaders who give them hope, they worship when forced to worship but that is usually with a king or ruler...I guess there is all sorts of worship, but when you put Daniel 9 with Jesus and Paul pointing to a man in the holy place - exalting himself above all gods - with the second beast causing all to worship the beast whose head was healed...it seems to be a man, not a city or nation...

Plus the amazement factor - is the revival of a city a big enough draw to cause the whole world to be amazed and follow?
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Tevye on Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:18 am

Hello Nike,
I do see what you're saying. I imagine that worship of a leader of an empire and empire worship could go hand in hand. That the empire or head of the empire could be viewed as receiving a fatal wound and the leader of such an empire would demand worship of himself through a proxy director of such worship, mainly the false prophet.

Could it have been said that Cesar is Rome and Rome is Cesar?

(Or Hitler was Germany and Germany was Hitler?)
I imagine that in that time it would seem that they were inseparable.
The world saw Germany and their first thought was of Hitler, not of the people.
They were so angry at Hitler therefore they hated Germany, namely the head Berlin.
So their drive corporately was toward Berlin, and once conquered by all the allies it was wounded.

During it's glory days Rome was the head of the Roman empire and many gave their allegience to Rome. It was nuts, it was like they worshiped the city they pledged allegience to. They worshiped the city by adorning it and when it was burnt they persecuted those whom they believed set it on fire, Christians.

Could his happen once again? Could the city that suffered by conservatives (Berlin, recently visited by an interesting head of state to be) be defended of it's wound that was suffered? At the appointed time could it be a center of Antichrist's campaign against Christians? Possibly. I hope this not too much of a stretch. I think that people can worship a person and their empire city.

I don't imagine that Antichrist will suffer any wound until it is given to Him by Christ Jesus alone, at His appearing.
But, that is just my opinion and view of prophecy. It's open for debate and insight. :grin:

More below your quote.

nike wrote:Hey, Tevye,

If it is a city, I don't know how the false prophet (second beast in Rev. 13) would "make the earth and all those who dwell in it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed." Has worship ever been given to a city and not an individual? What does worship of a city look like? I think we can be amazed at a revival of a nation or a city, but when it comes to worship - that type of allegiance is given to a deity or one who thinks he is a deity or close to it...Nimrod was worshipped for the protection he provided ancient Babylon, Caesar was worshipped as ruler of the Roman Empire...

People worship idols who they feel are gods, they worship people/leaders who give them hope, they worship when forced to worship but that is usually with a king or ruler...I guess there is all sorts of worship, but when you put Daniel 9 with Jesus and Paul pointing to a man in the holy place - exalting himself above all gods - with the second beast causing all to worship the beast whose head was healed...it seems to be a man, not a city or nation...

Plus the amazement factor - is the revival of a city a big enough draw to cause the whole world to be amazed and follow?


That's a great question. I visited Berlin before the wall came down and it was destitute on the east side. Like it was dead, or had suffered a type of death and was the living dead. You could feel the death of a city there even as people lived in it. East German money was of very little value, until... a breath of life was breathed into it when the wall came down. I stood amazed on that day. I didn't imagine that it would come back to life.

I suppose time will tell and future events will too.

Yet, it's intriguing to imagine the possibilities. :grin:
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:17 pm

Why do you have to be so aggressive, Orange?


When you state your case, you are valiant. When I state my case, I'm agressive???

The dragon of Rev. 12 is Satan, because Revelation consistently uses the image of a dragon to represent Satan. The 7 empires and leaders that have tried to destroy Israel are represented by the seven heads. The 8th beast empire which is yet to come is represented by the 10 horns, therefore in Rev. 12 you see Satan supporting the beast nations, the seven having already ruled thus wearing crowns, the ten still waiting their rule. Then in Rev. 13 you see Satan watching as his beast nation arises again, this time with crowns on the horns of the final beast nation, indicating their rule was finally active.


Not bad, Nike. I dare say I'm fairly impressed. You wield your "Sting" very well. There is one issue though. The dragon and beast only have seven heads. It does specify that there is an eighth, but that eighth is actually of the seven. What difference does it make? In Daniel, the ten horns appear first, then the little horn springs up among the ten horns. That's the order. The ten nation confederacy happens first, then antichrist's rule occurs after that. That's also the order in Revelation 13. The beast rises out of the sea (Mediterranean Sea), then after the beast arises out of the sea (with the ten crowns on the ten horns) then the little horn is given a mouth speaking great things against the Most High, Daniel 7.

But since you have conceded that the seven heads are seven empires, isn't the debate over? If one of the heads of the beast is wounded, the simplest interpretation would be that one of the empires of this entire beast system is wounded unto death. If there is some type of war whereby a nation is brought to the point of death, and the antichrist somehow brings this nation back from a state of thanatos (I know this is a stretch) wouldn't that explain the world's reaction which states "who is able to make war against the beast?" I don't know if this is any stronger a position than believing that one man dies and comes back to life, but I like to examine both.

When we come to Revelation 17, the passage states that the seven heads are seven mountains. The generally accepted teaching of the five that are fallen is that they are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece. Then the one that is equals Rome. The one that is to come is the ten nation confederacy within the bounds of the old Roman Empire (east and west). The beast is of the seven being the eighth, but he is of the seven, therefore there are still only seven heads on the beast. So here we are talking about empires as the interpretation for heads, but somehow when we read Revelaton 13 where it states that "one of its heads were wounded" we must refer to this as a man, and not an empire. Why?

Now Nike, I hope you don't think me too agressive here. You know I'm really just having fun. And staying busy. Hopefully you can pick up where Smackbucket left off and prove the case beyond a shadow of a doubt. Until then, I think his face is starting to turn blue. Hurry up, Nike! You don't want him to pass out do you?

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:44 pm

Let me clarify...the seven heads are empires but KINGS as well. We both stated that earlier. Therefore, though the eighth is one of the seven, we see in Revelation 17:12 that the 10 horns, which have 10 kings (thus the 10 crowns), receive authority as kings with the beast. There is an association of the horns with the beast's leadership, so although the beast comes from the original seven, in the final Satanic attempt (before the DOTL) to destroy the people of God, the 10 crowned horns are associated with the 8th King. Thus in Rev. 12 when you saw the dragon with the same characteristics of the beast in 13, the crowns are not on the horns yet because their rule with the risen king from one of the previous 7 heads hasn't happened yet...are you staying with me? By chapter 13, the 8th beast nation is ready and actually, it is interesting because Rev. 13:1 says that the horns have diadems but it doesn't say the heads do - but again it doesn't say the heads don't. If John is seeing the same beast as in 12, perhaps the diadems are still on the seven heads, but he was noting that now the horns have the crowns, noting that a shift has occurred...just interesting...I'll have to ask him when I find him in heaven about that...

Now, on to the mountains. Yes, the mountains are empires but they are also KINGS - Rev. 17:10 makes that clear. Taking the world's response of awe and amazement right after the fatal wound which is healed is mentioned (Rev. 13:3), the world's worship of the beast (Rev. 13:4), the fact that he has a mouth which he blasphemes and shows his arrogance (Rev. 13:5), the fact he is given authority for 42 months (Rev. 13:5), the false prophet's role in making those who dwell on the earth worship the beast "whose fatal wound was healed" (Rev. 13:12), the image the false prophet commands the world make to the beast who "had the wound of the sword and has come to life", as well as cause all to take the mark or lose all ability to buy or sell - taking all this into account, when we go to Rev 17 and now the beast is referred to the "one who was, and is not, and will come" and it says that he will make an eighth - this is right after it says the seven mountains are 7 kings (v. 10), then describes what has happened to the 7 kings (v.10), and then says the beast which "was and is not" makes an eighth (v.11) - an eighth what? King. It is contextual because of verse 10 that it is describing the kings. (oh, my goodness - is that a run-on sentence or what???) "Was, is not, and will come" seems to be the same as "fatal wound was healed" - it's not a stretch.

Because Rev. 17:10 describes the kings, verse 11 has to still be describing kings.

As for why the fatal wound that is healed has to be a king - is it not true that all the previous beast empires are no longer what they used to be? Rome fell, Germany fell, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon - in essence they have all died - transpired - expired...So why say only one of the heads looks like it is dead? If this is referring to a beast empire that will arise, all seven could look dead or slain. Only one has to arise. But if this is talking about KINGS - then we are given another piece of the puzzle. Yes, all the kings of the beast nations are dead as well, BUT did they all die of a fatal wound to the head??? No, they didn't. That's what amazes the world - because whoever this ends up being is going to be able to prove that he has defeated death - that he has risen.

Valiant means showing courage or determination. Aggressive means ready or likely to attack or confront. Which do you think described you? I showed courage by jumping in and trying to answer your rapid fire questions, therefore I think that I...was...some...what...valiant...

Have I made any head way or does Smackbucket still have to hold his breath?

Way too busy but still having fun,

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:56 pm

Wow Nike, that was definitely valiant in my opinion! :award: It makes sense and the logic is clear...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby smackbucket on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:47 am

I think it's pretty clear that it's a MAN and not an empire that receives the head wound. But making it clear to those that think it's an empire, now THAT'S another story. And if we compare effort and the size of our posts, it also becomes very clear that nike is way more valiant than me! d
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:51 am

Dave, I think Nike was the one out of breath after that post...I was just after reading it! Pretty clear to me too that a man receives the head wound... So Nike, can you give us more on what you think it means that the woman sits on the seven mountains/kings... You keep surprising me by having more in you then you first let on. I will be back quite a bit later however as today is a roof day...

"Was, is not, and will come" seems to be the same as "fatal wound was healed" - it's not a stretch.


I agree...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Tevye on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:52 am

Question.

If the Antichrist is a little horn on the head
then is the head not the empire?
Or is the Word describing him as a head as well?
Wouldn't the head represent the whole of a people
and not just one of them?

So if the head receives a fatal wound
then wouldn't all of the people
feel the effects of such a fatal wound?
(the appearance of the death of a nation)

It only appeared to have a fatal wound
the nation or empire of Germany continued on in a sense
but with a fatal blow to it's government in WWII.

When the Berlin wall came down the move to remove the allies began
and the move to restore life to an injured nation or empire began.

Many iof the U.S. military bases have been shut down there
and the infulence on German government by the U.S. is weakened
strengthing the people of the German nation.

The head of the Beast has been coming back to life.


Nike wrote:Now, on to the mountains. Yes, the mountains are empires but they are also KINGS

Hello Nike,
does this allow for worship or following after of a revived empire?
That a king and an empire would be seen as one and the same
and therefore the passage allows for both to be effected or just one
the empire or the person who revives it?

I'm not sure if Pharoh actually stated in real life
that he was Egypt
but in a movie he says "I am Egypt."
"I am the morning and evening star."
Making them appear as one and the same.

Well, I have surely enjoyed this conversation
blessing to all today!


Germany is the portal so to speak
between the east and the west.
When the wall went up there was the cold war
or the "dead" war, was the relations between the east and the west.
When the Berlin wall came down, it was like a breath of life was breathed
into an empire that had the appearance of suffering a fatal or mortal would.
And the life or culture of the government of the west has poured into the east
and I believe that there is a vice versa, the infulence of the east has come to the west
as we see here in the west with a "commune" popularity taking place.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:07 am

The description in Daniel 7 is one piece of the puzzle - we have to add it to Revelation as we go. In Rev. we don't see the little horn popping up and displacing three of the horns, though Daniel tells us it does. And do we know exactly where the little horns attach? Are they on one head, or spread out amongst all the heads or do they run up the back? Not sure of the placement.

Smack - glad to see you're still breathing...

Overcomer - I really don't have much on the mountains...I know about the seven hills of Rome, but hills seem to be smaller than mountains. I agree with Orange that they represent the empires, but disagree that the description in verse 10 are of the empires, but rather of the kings. Sometimes a king falls but an empire survives. I do think it is interesting that in Rev. 17:12 the twelve horns are described as kings (just after the 7 kings were mentioned) but these kings "have not yet received a kingdom" - not sure what that means exactly, but I do know one thing - the horns represent KINGS and not kingdoms. So again, I think the heads are Kings as in specific men, since the word "king" is used in verse 10, implied in 11, again in 12 and says that they don't have a kingdom (in 12). I don't think we're talking empires...

Tevye, I'm glad you're enjoying this!

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby smackbucket on Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:29 am

I just had a thought. I don't know why I never thought of it before.

And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast.

We all know who "those who dwell on the earth" are. It's even clearly verified within this passage. It's those who names have "not been written in the book of life." So why on God's green earth would THEY be the ones singled out as being amazed at seeing the beast? And why aren't the saints amazed It doesn't seem to make sense to me if it's an empire that they are looking at. But if it's a spiritually discerned issue, it makes perfect sense. An evil man coming to life is amazing to one that does not have spiritual eyes, but to those that have the Spirit, it's very clear, and not something to make us wonder. We "get it."

Just a thought.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:46 am

uh...you really should bring the Tribune back to life Dave...

Great thought...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:15 pm

So glad you jumped in, Smack, good point - when Orange finishes his mail run today, he's going to have a lot to contend with! (I do make him the bad guy, don't I?) :grin:

Another thought (and I hope this doesn't hijack the thread)...but Smack quoted Rev. 17:8. Rev. 13:8 says, "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." I've often wondered about those who are not believers but do not take the mark - the ones who help the needy during the persecution and don't align with AC. They are not raptured but they survive the DOTL and are given salvation at the sheep and goat judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) - their names must be in the book of life, right? It's not a fluke that they survive! Because EVERYONE whose NAME is NOT in the book of life will worship the beast. Not sure why this surprises me, but again, every step of the way God has this planned out...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:41 pm

Ahhhh.... (rolls up sleeves) There's nothing like a good debate.

Aggressive means ready or likely to attack or confront. Which do you think described you?


Hi Nike. When you put it that way, of course I'm agressive. And now I'll take it as a compliment too. We are coming at this from different angles. You concede that the heads are empires. But when we come to a certain point, you suddenly begin interpreting the heads as individual kings. You also start intepreting the beast (empire) as a man. My point is that context should determine which it refers to. There should be no assumptions and I don't think you can "beyond a shadow of a doubt" prove the transition.

Since we are on the same page concerning continuity between the dragon of Revelation 12 and the beast of Revelation 13, let's back up a bit more. Since the dragon of Revelation 12 is also called "that old serpent", there is continuity between the garden of Eden and the dragon of Revelation 12. The dragon of Revelation 12 has seven heads and ten horns. You are correct in identifying the reason for the transition of the crowns from the seven heads to the ten horns. The authority is still vested in the empire at the time the dragon tries to devour the Christ. But when the beast arises out of the sea, then the authority of the beast (empire) is vested in the ten kings. (Herb may have been on to something.)

AFTER the beast (with seven heads and ten horns) arises out of the sea, this means the beast empire has its authority in the ten kings. These ten kings rule as kings for one hour together with the beast (empire or man?). They also give their authority to the beast (empire or man?). So the order is this. First ten kings, ruling as the authority in the empire (the seventh head). Then these ten kings give their authority to the beast. If it's a man, then that's when antichrist is empowered. If it's the empire, this could be when the Roman Empire is officially revived. Either way, that's the eighth (empire or king?).

There is an association of the horns with the beast's leadership, so although the beast comes from the original seven, in the final Satanic attempt (before the DOTL) to destroy the people of God, the 10 crowned horns are associated with the 8th King.


Do you mean eighth empire, or eighth king? If you mean eighth individual king, could you name the previous seven individuals?

Yes, the mountains are empires but they are also KINGS - Rev. 17:10 makes that clear.


How is it clear? Translations differ between "they are also seven kings" and "and there are seven kings". (That was one of the points of contention between me and Dave B. in the debate.) If it is the second, there isn't necessarily a direct connection between the seven heads and these seven kings. They could be unrelated, although it's unlikely. So I propose taking the interpretation of "five are fallen, and one is, and theother is not yet come" to tell us the answer. So what is your interpretation of the five, one, and one. Are they kings? If so, who were the five individual kings which were fallen in John's day? If empires, which ones?

when we go to Rev 17 and now the beast is referred to the "one who was, and is not, and will come" and it says that he will make an eighth - this is right after it says the seven mountains are 7 kings (v. 10), then describes what has happened to the 7 kings (v.10), and then says the beast which "was and is not" makes an eighth (v.11) - an eighth what? King. It is contextual because of verse 10 that it is describing the kings.


If you have applied the idea of empires previous to this, then when we come to this quote, it's not necessarily an eighth king. It is an eighth head (of the seven) which is an empire. The eighth will occur when the ten kings give their authority to one source. That will constitute the empire. Now you could read into it that there will be one man at the center of that empire. That's a good assumption. But it's just an assumption. I could read into it that it will constitute a revived Roman empire, but that's also an assumption. These ideas are not even mutually exclusive. Both could be true.

As for why the fatal wound that is healed has to be a king - is it not true that all the previous beast empires are no longer what they used to be? Rome fell, Germany fell, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon - in essence they have all died - transpired - expired...So why say only one of the heads looks like it is dead?


I don't believe that's the case. Egypt is still a country while not the empire it once was. Also, the Roman Empire isn't really gone, it's just changed gears with the Roman church. I'm still keeping my eyes on Rome and the decisions the Vatican makes. If the Roman Empire makes some type of comeback from the point of near extinction, that would be miraculous. If it happens during a time of war and the newly formed ten nation Roman alliance defeats others against incredible odds, that would cause a reaction something to the effect of "who is able to make war against this beast empire?"

Yes, all the kings of the beast nations are dead as well, BUT did they all die of a fatal wound to the head??? No, they didn't. That's what amazes the world - because whoever this ends up being is going to be able to prove that he has defeated death - that he has risen.


The means by which empires fall would be equated symbolically with no contradiction to the vision. This idea of a leader rising from the dead is certainly within the scope of the passage, but I'm trying to set something else out here which I think is just as viable.

Thank you for using the actual passages, and not inferring your points. The beast is an "it", not a "he". And who are we kidding, Smackbucket isn't holding his breath. He's in retirement for crying out loud. I'm with Overcomer, I think the tribune should be resurrected. It seems to have received a fatal wound to the head.

I await your valiant response.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:24 pm

Orange,

Is the beast in verse 11 an empire?
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:50 pm

I sent my armor to the cleaners this morning so be kind...

How does an empire die of a fatal wound to the head?

Orange, I am so disappointed at your desire to fall on the symbolic side. Wait, wait - I agree, there is symbolism all over Revelation, but there are a lot of explanations to define the symbolism as well - i.e. the seven heads are seven mountains ...and they are seven kings...golden lampstands and stars are churches and angels... When it says "fatal wound was healed, there isn't a later interpretation and it's pretty obvious what it is. It seems to me you are taking something pretty obvious and muddying it with symbolism! Isn't that backwards?

My understanding of "the 5 were, one is and one has not yet come, but when he comes, he must remain a little while" is the same for kings as it is for empires. The 5 kings "who were" are the leaders of the beast empires who no longer are alive at the time of John's writing. The one who is would be the head of Rome at the time of writing and the one who is still to come...I guess I assume that was Hitler with Germany...but could be wrong with that, though many agree with me. Why the 5 fallen kings had to fall in John's day - I am not sure why you asked that because the empires you described did not fall in John's day - it is obvious that the falls were past events.

Okay, this answer doesn't have to go in the valiant column, however at least I showed up...

By the way, will you tell Diva that the Oreo balls were a HUGE hit with my kids...

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:28 pm

Hey Nike, give this a thought. What is the standard view of the fatal wound? Whether you are pretrib, prewrath, or posttrib, the standard view is that a man dies, comes back to life, and at that time is Satanically empowered. Given the fact that I know it is the standard view, and that I know when people read Revelation 13, they do not read the text straightforward but already have in their minds what they think it means before even examining it, and then I post my views against the grain knowing that everyone is going to continue with their views and believe that I don't know what I'm talking about, how does that compare with valiant?

Why the 5 fallen kings had to fall in John's day - I am not sure why you asked that because the empires you described did not fall in John's day - it is obvious that the falls were past events.


If wasn't clear I apologize. The five heads were already fallen in John's day. It was past. But what are those five fallen heads symbolic of? Are they empires, or individual persons? Did the empire fall when the king was killed, or did the empire continue after the king died?

I'm still waiting for your view on the five heads that were already fallen in John's day. That is the key to understanding the context. If you hold to the standard view (held also by Robert Van Kampen) then you are going to give an answer in terms of empires which include Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persian, and Greece for the five which had fallen.

So in reading Revelation 13, I believe I am taking the symbolism in its normative usage. There is a beast with seven heads and ten horns. When John sees the beast, he sees the entire beast encompassing all of Satan's governmental framework spanning centuries. When we read about the beast, that's what it means.

Tell you what though. I'll give this a rest since everyone has read my views and knows that I'm really off base here. Plus I really don't have a good answer for Overcomer.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:31 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:Hey Nike, give this a thought. What is the standard view of the fatal wound? Whether you are pretrib, prewrath, or posttrib, the standard view is that a man dies, comes back to life, and at that time is Satanically empowered. Given the fact that I know it is the standard view, and that I know when people read Revelation 13, they do not read the text straightforward but already have in their minds what they think it means before even examining it, and then I post my views against the grain knowing that everyone is going to continue with their views and believe that I don't know what I'm talking about, how does that compare with valiant?


I don't know if I would call that valiant...having 6 children who a few years ago were all teenagers at the same time, I think I recognize that more as rebellious... :grin:

Since you are apparently familiar with Robert VanKampen's explanation of the empires, I won't list them out again, however I will add that whether or not Rev. 17:10 says "and there are 7 kings" or "and there are also 7 kings" it is normative to understand that the next statement describes the kings, since it follows the comment of the kings. But I want to back up a bit and ask you a question about 17:8 (so please don't disappear from the discussion...oops, I mean debate).

Rev. 17:8 uses the description "was, and is not, and will come", actually twice, to describe the beast. Where else have we seen this phrase? Is it of an empire or of an individual? Rev. 1:8 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev. 4:8 uses those words again, but in the same order as the beast's description - "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come." Since this is praising an individual, I think this is another reason why Rev. 17:8 is referring to a man, since the AC is an attempt to mimic Christ. It reminds me of the magicians in Egypt imitating Moses' signs from God - cheap imitations. The AC is going to try to discredit Christ by his own resurrection. If the AC is only the leader of a resurrected empire, where's the grounds to demand worship or to exalt himself above all gods?

For example, if Amadinijab would be assassinated, he would just be replaced by another leader. A leader can only boast because he was placed into office by his people, but he is replaceable. But if a man could prove he had defeated death - he had risen from the dead - how would you get rid of him? Now he has something to boast about and something so unique that he can compare himself to gods.

Hey, I've got another thought...what if the heads on the beast in Rev. 13 are actual men's heads? Like each head was the head of the actual leader of the beast nations and then one had a healed wound. How creepy would that be? And what do you think a "blasphemous name" is? Did the rulers of the beast empires all believe they were gods?

Someone else's turn...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:01 am

In 2 Th. 2 we see an individual displaying himself as God...man of lawlessness, son of destruction. Gotta go with Nike on this one Orange...and please, don't disappear...

And Nike...you definitely have a story-teller's imagination! (That WAS creepy!)
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:27 am

Could it be an evil spirit that used a "host" on earth, to return to another "host"? Karl Marx claimed to be equal with God and said;

"I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above..."


along with many other claims to be satan... even his wife wrote him a letter beginning, "My dear devil"

It seems there are some admitted Marxist turned Communists advising BHO... Just a thought...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Tevye on Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:49 am

nike wrote:Tevye, I'm glad you're enjoying this!

nike

:grin:
Oh, the possibilities.

I imagine that soon and very soon
many things will be made clearer
to those whom God has chosen to reveal them to
especially as the events begin to really unfold.

Scripture is so exciting these days.
Bless the Lord Yeshua!
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Tevye on Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:11 am

The Orange Mailman wrote: The five heads were already fallen in John's day. It was past. But what are those five fallen heads symbolic of? Are they empires, or individual persons? Did the empire fall when the king was killed, or did the empire continue after the king died?

I'm still waiting for your view on the five heads that were already fallen in John's day. That is the key to understanding the context. If you hold to the standard view (held also by Robert Van Kampen) then you are going to give an answer in terms of empires which include Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persian, and Greece for the five which had fallen.

So in reading Revelation 13, I believe I am taking the symbolism in its normative usage. There is a beast with seven heads and ten horns. When John sees the beast, he sees the entire beast encompassing all of Satan's governmental framework spanning centuries. When we read about the beast, that's what it means.

Tell you what though. I'll give this a rest since everyone has read my views and knows that I'm really off base here. Plus I really don't have a good answer for Overcomer.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Hello Orange Mailman,
I hope you don't mind me quoting you.
You've caught my attention so don't run off.

I'm interested in reading your insight to the "five" fallen kings
which I believe that you're saying is the "key" to understanding the 8 kings.
I'm into understand the "key" that unlocks this prophecy.

When we see prophecy as it is intended to be seen
and are open to the vision given by the Spirit of the Lord
it's amazing the insights God gives us and the blessings we receive in our spirit
which is far more valuable than anything we could store up on this Earth.
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby kirthril on Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:50 pm

Just throwing this out there:

For those of you who believe the AC will be a revived person from ancient times, ie "the 8th king is of the 7", who recieved a fatal head wound that was healed...

well if he has recovered from a head wound that killed him... then shouldnt we just look in the history books to see which Roman king (or king from other empires that ruled Israel that might be succeptable) was killed from a blow to the head? Wouldnt that say right away who the AC revived might be (if this is your theory)?

If you think it may be hitler.... when he commited suicide, did he shoot himself in the head?
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby nike on Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:02 pm

Hitler shot himself in the head, at least that's what I've read. And Nero of Rome committed suicide as well by stabbing himself in the neck. Robert VanKampen in The Sign wrote a chapter entitled "Antichrist Revealed" and goes through the empires and leaders, as well as the qualifications of AC. He asserted that Nero and Hitler fit the requirements the best, but I have also heard him say that there were some premises of prewrath he would die for and others he wouldn't - the identity of AC was one he wouldn't die for...nevertheless, it's an interesting read...
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:28 pm

I'd like to do something a little different. The views are out there and now let's add some other views to the mix. I'm going to quote a couple of authors with different views just so we can get an idea of where some of the prophecy scholars of old stood on the issue. For good measure, I'll start with someone who pretty much agrees with the standard view. Here is a quote from Charles Erdman from Revelation of John. It's quite interesting.

A mysterious feature is now added: "I saw one of his heads as though it had been smitten unto death; and his death-stroke was healed: and the whole earth wondered after the beast." Many suppose that the reference is to the expected return from the dead of the Roman emperor Nero. The difficulty is that such a return never took place. John would hardly assign a false report as a ground for rendering universal worship. The beast which John describes actually "had been smitten" and "his death-stroke was healed." More probably is the theory that the symbol indicates an emperor who had been a persecutor as Nero was, followed by another in whom his spirit of brutal violence was reincarnate. It may be added that this figurative resurrection is contrasted with the actual resurrection of Christ, in virtue of which he has been given universal praise and power.

A bit later he writes...

Such, in any event, is the character of the beast whom the false prophet compels all the world to worship. He seems to correspond to "the man of sin" predicted by Paul, II Thess. 2:1-10. When civil and social order have been subverted, when lawlessness prevails, when all restraints have been removed, there arises out of this state of anarchy a tyrant of demonic character and despotic power, who does indeed establish order, but only to arrogate to himself all authority divine and human and to become the embodiment of a lawlessness worse and more fatal to the nations than that out of which he arose.

In the chapter commenting on Revelation 17 he writes...

Whence does John borrow his symbolism? What do the symbols mean? For the source of the symbols one need to look quite as carefully into The Book of Daniel as into the history of Rome. Even then it seems impossible to determine whether the "seven kings" refer to "seven empires" or "seven emperors." The beast seems to correspond to the "little horn" of Daniel. The statement that he "was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss" would probably indicate that he will reembody the cruelty and power of a previous one of "the seven." He is in this sense one of the seven come to life again. He is the seventh in the series, and is for a time supported by "ten kings," who reign "with the beast, for one hour." Yet he "is himself also an eighth," or may be so regarded when he becomes the sole embodiment of world power.

So looking at his views, it seems that CR Erdman believed that the Roman empire played a factor in determining the identity of the antichrist and the beast system. He also believes in a figurative resurrection, not necessarily a literal one, but in this area he goes with an individual rather than an empire. He completely dodges strictly going with empires or kings in Revelation 17.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:57 pm

WJ Erdman has this to say from Notes on the Revelation. And believe me, you have to read this three or four times before you can begin to soak it in.

In the return of imperialism through the sovereignty of the Beast and the dechristianization of all that once constituted the governments of Christendom, the "deadly wound" (the death stroke) of ancient imperialism is healed and the nations return to their original, godless civilization and culture. It will be a gigantic final attempt of men to realize the primal lie of the serpent "ye shall be as gods," whose poison infused into the heart of man with the first sin has been transmitted from generation to generation ever since.

So WJ Erdman saw the healing of the death stroke as a return to ancient imperialism, like the rulers of old. Now from notes on the chapter commenting on Revelation 17, chapter entitled Babylon and the Beast.

The woman is seen seated upon the Beast in its sum total of the imperial and kingly powers.

Seven are world empires; but between the sixth and the seventh come ten kingdoms, so forming, in all, eight world powers. Out of the "ten horns" arises an eleventh, who subduing three, secures the allegiance of all, and becomes the head of a final or seventh world empire; he is of the seven world emperors, but the eight world power. Dan. 7:8, 20.

The explanation of the angel ends with "a definite statement" which apparently identifies the "Woman" with Rome: "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city which holdeth sovereignty over the kings of the earth." 17:18.


So it seems when it come to the seven heads, that WJ Erdman only sees empires, but perhaps the antichrist as head of the eighth could be representative of the whole.

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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby Tevye on Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 pm

I just had a thought.

The seven heads are seven hills
on which the woman sits.
Maybe we could determine
what kings or kingdoms are to be the seven, and then the 8th
by figuring out what hills the woman has sat upon, or is currently sitting upon.

Is it possible to figure this out from history
and figure out where she sits today
no matter how unfavorable the outcome would be?

That is if the woman:

MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

ends up sitting upon a certain nation
we would not be happy about her sitting upon
that we would be able to face the truth about it??
What if it was our own nation?
Sitting upon many waters?
Would that be an eye opener?

Why did John say he was so astonished?
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

Was it because he was looking at what was suppose to be a "Christian" nation?
Was he in a state of shock
that Christians who held power somewhere would allow such a thing to happen?

"The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."


I'm not saying this is the case,
that this nation is the last "hill"
upon which the woman sits, at this time.
Yet, the connections these days are striking,
and our political power and hold over the land of Babylon is intriguing.


My actual gut feeling is that the final beast empire
is not here but in the Middle East
in Assyria or Persia.
and that a leader from that old Greek empire
will appear up to life again from the Abyss
and then the world will be astonished by his return.
Yet, it is interesting to examine the possibilities
until the actual events happen.

Thank you Nike and Orange Mailman
for your insights and input
have a blessed weekend!!!
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Re: Anti-Christ's fatal wound

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:42 pm

Next I'll quote from George Ladd. He makes a very interesting point about the fact that the beast itself receives the wound since later verses clarify that. But he concedes it is one of the heads that receives the wound. So this may go against my insistence on pointing out "one of the heads" receives the wound. Here is a quote from A Commentary on the Revelation of John. Bold and italics are his.

Verse 3. One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth followed the beast with wonder. The wording of the English may be a bit misleading; it does not mean to say that one of the heads looked as though it was mortally wounded but really was not. The words are the same as those used of the Lamb in 5:6 who actually had been slain. Here, one of the heads is wounded to death, but the death wound is healed.

Many interpreters understand John to mean that one of the Roman emperors was killed and later brought back from the dead as the embodiment of satanic evil. Support for this view has been sought in the so-called myth of Nero redivivus. The Emperor Nero came to death by his own hand in A.D. 68, but the story arose that he was not really dead but had escaped to the East and would return in triumph. In the years 69, a pseudo-Nero appeared in Asia but came to naught; and in 88, another pretender appeared in Asia declaring that he was Nero and had been in hiding.

This myth was indeed used in certain circles of Christian apocalyptic where the return of a triumphant Nero is pictured, sometimes as the Antichrist (ascension of Isaiah 4:1-14; Sibylline Oracles 4:119; 5:363; 8:70). The fatal objection to this view is that it is not only one of the heads of the beast which is slain, but the beast himself which received the mortal wound (13:12, 14). Later, it is spoken of as “the beast that …was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit” (17:8). The murder or suicide of a Roman emperor might lead to a period of chaotic unrest, but it in no way interrupted the continuity of the empire itself. The fact that both one of the heads and the beast himself received the mortal wound suggests that the beast is in some way to be identified with his ten heads. The beast is the embodiment of all that was expressed in the four beasts of Daniel 7, and the seven heads are concrete embodiments of this imperial power. (See further notes on 17:8-12.) The beast himself, in the person of one of its heads, was slain but later revived. In this vision, John radically reworks the materials in Daniel 7.


So in Ladd's views, it must be a person which is slain, but it will affect the entire beast empire.
Perhaps if I get time I will type up his comments on Revelation 17. But that is a lengthy section.

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