Timeline list

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Timeline list

Postby nike on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:42 pm

All right, Pre-Wrathers...it's time to come out of your 4th of July hiatus and get the discussion going again. I have taken a few of the signs from discussions elsewhere on the board and want a simple timeline laid out with these events, as you see it. Again, I am assuming literal interpretation input only, since the purpose is not to get into a symbolism debate:

appearance of 2 witnesses
Armageddon
wrath of God begins
sacrifices on the temple mount
Restrainer removed
Gog and Magog war
Great Tribulation begins
desecration of temple
Rapture
Millenium

Okay, there's ten...who will take a stab at it? Just list from top to bottom what will happen first to last. I am curious if we all assume the same order of events or where we differ... :grin:

Thanks and hope you are all well... :3jump:

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Re: Timeline list

Postby WallDoctor on Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:31 pm

I'm ready to be taken to task for not listening closely enough. I made a couple of (what I thought to be) logical guesses and didn't actually pull out my Bible.

Restrainer removed
sacrifices on the temple mount
desecration of temple
Great Tribulation begins (wasn't sure if you meant this for the beginning of the 7 year period though which would put it first)
appearance of 2 witnesses
Rapture
wrath of God begins
Armageddon
Millenium
Gog and Magog war
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Re: Timeline list

Postby jgilberAZ on Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:48 pm

sacrifices on the temple mount
Restrainer removed
desecration of temple
Great Tribulation begins
appearance of 2 witnesses
Rapture
wrath of God begins
Gog and Magog war
Armageddon
Millenium
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:49 pm

I'll take a stab at it...

sacrifices on the temple mount

(...the next four all occur at the mid-point of the Week but I placed them in the order that I think they would most likely unfold...)

Restrainer removed-desecration of temple-appearance of 2 witnesses-Great Tribulation begins
(I'm trying to decide if appearance of witnesses should come after GT begins...I think I will leave them after desecration of temple...I'm imagining them coming on the scene as those in Jerusalem begin to flee)

Rapture
wrath of God begins
Gog and Magog war (...this one I'm not so sure of...could fall at end of Millennium)
Armageddon
Millennium
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Re: Timeline list

Postby Truthinlove on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:26 pm

1) sacrifices on the temple mount
2) Restrainer removed
3) desecration of temple
4) Great Tribulation begins
5) appearance of 2 witnesses
6) Rapture
7) wrath of God begins
8) Armageddon
9) Millenium

2,3,4 & 5 all happen at the midpoint

I left out the Gog/Magog war because I am clueless about when that will occur! :lol:
"I didn't survive so I could make everyone comfortable. I survived so I could stir things up a bit. And I have a great time doing it." - Gianna Jessen (abortion survivor)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOljzwNVGNY
http://www.giannajessen.com/
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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:15 pm

Here's a version:


sacrifices on the temple mount
Restrainer removed (heavenly forces initiates earthly actions)
desecration of temple = abomination of desolation = sacrifices taken away
Great Tribulation begins
appearance of 2 witnesses
Rapture
wrath of God begins
Gog and Magog war (begins with sixth bowl)
Armageddon (ends Gog/Magog with seventh bowl)
Millenium
Gog and Magog war (again)

Nike, this isn't any fun when we all agree. Unless you are going to come on and disagree, it looks like we are all pretty much in one accord here.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:23 pm

Oh, Orange...I knew you'd go above and beyond with your answer...and contrary to popular practice, I am not looking for a fight but for concensus..."Prewrath" has become such a broad term lately that I am curious where this board's members find themselves on the prewrath spectrum...

Yes, I think we are all pretty close, so here are my next three questions: (everyone, please answer all three)

1. What is the "Restrainer" currently restraining (in your opinion or God's if you can support it with scripture)?
2. Who are the 2 witnesses witnessing to and why wouldn't they be raptured at the 6th seal with all believers? (This is assuming that your answers of the two witnesses beginning their ministry at the mid-point is right...)
3. What is the AC's role in the Gog and Magog war? Is he on Gog's team or is he opposed to Gog?

Keep your answers simple (Orange, this may be hard for you!) and we'll see where this takes us... :hehe:

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Re: Timeline list

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:59 pm

#1 I don't know
#2 I don't know
#3 I don't know

I don't know anything anymore!

Carry on.
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:40 pm

Extravagantchristian - thanks for the honesty, but I've read your posts before and I'm not sure you don't have some thoughts to share... :lol:
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Re: Timeline list

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:19 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Nike, this isn't any fun when we all agree.


:rolllaughing:
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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:11 am

Nike, I'm going to write a thousand word essay and post it on my blog explaining that I'm not as verbose as people think I am. Keep it simple, huh? Short and sweet. Get to the point. Less is more. Big things come in little packages. Less talk more walk. Why say in 100 words what you can say in 10?

#1- Angelic being working through human government. This principle is outlined in Daniel 10:13, 20-21, 11:1, 12:1. The event is described in Revelation 12:7-9 which results in Revelation 13:1.

#2- The entire world, Revelation 11:9-10 and why do they have to be raptured?

#3- Gog is a leader from the far north who comes against the antichrist and Israel only to join with him (AC) and the kings of the east to be slaughtered at Armageddon. Also, Post-Millennially he is a leader that Satan uses to gather nations in the final rebellion.

Now for me, that was pretty simple. I personally think Extravagant Christian was just showing off. You can't much more simple than that.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:36 am

Thanks, Orange, for such restraint. By the way, I do read your blog, enjoy it most of the time, scratch my head some of the time and share your address with friends much of the time...

Few clarification questions which I am sure would have been answered if I had let you write more...


#1- Angelic being working through human government. This principle is outlined in Daniel 10:13, 20-21, 11:1, 12:1. The event is described in Revelation 12:7-9 which results in Revelation 13:1.


So the angelic being is restraining the human government? Not sure what you mean by this, or perhaps you didn't answer the question - what is the angelic being (fine, I'll go ahead and say it, Michael) restraining? (please use ten words or less and full sentence is not required)


#2- The entire world, Revelation 11:9-10 and why do they have to be raptured?

For what purpose are they witnessing to the whole world? To give the gospel? Why would they stay after the rapture?

#3- Gog is a leader from the far north who comes against the antichrist and Israel only to join with him (AC) and the kings of the east to be slaughtered at Armageddon. Also, Post-Millennially he is a leader that Satan uses to gather nations in the final rebellion.

I follow you on this one, Orange. Do you think that post-millennially (by which I think you mean within the mill, but at the end) that it will be the same Gog or a new Gog with the same heritage?

Thanks,

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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:37 am

Oops, I missed it...big things come in little packages...that's mailman humor again, right?
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Re: Timeline list

Postby WallDoctor on Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:20 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:#1- Angelic being working through human government.



Is this the idea of Romans 13 - "For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer." ???



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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:28 am

Walldoctor,

I think you're reading too much into Romans 13. Romans 13 is speaking directly about the governing authorities which God has placed over man - government in general. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but in general government was given to punish the wicked and protect the righteous. If you obey the laws of the land what do you have to fear? It's that concept. I don't see any angelic involvement promise in these verses, just our obligation to live within our governing authorities' care.

So, do you think the Restrainer is an angel or angelic by nature? And what do you think he is currently restraining?

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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:56 am

Michael is presently restraining the power and activity of Satan, the evil Satan wishes to perpetrate against the people of God...oops...that was 21 words Nike...sorry about that...
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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:41 am

I'm gonna add 2 more to the list concerning the two witnesses:

2 witnesses killed
2 witnesses raised

1) sacrifices on the temple mount
2) Restrainer removed
3) desecration of temple and the great tribulation begins
4) appearance of 2 witnesses(appear at the start of the GT)
6) 2 witnesses killed (3 1/2 days before the wrath of God begins at the midpoint of the GT)
7) Rapture ( The 2 witnesses and the dead in Christ raised first then those who are left are changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air)
8) wrath of God begins
9) Gog Magog leading into Armageddon
10) Millenium
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:37 am

Hi Newlyborn,

We are given a time frame in which the two witnesses will prophesy. Rev. 11:3 says they will prophesy for 1260 days. If they appear at the AofD/GT, this puts their deaths at the end of the week. I find another reason why we can't place their resurrection/rapture with the resurrection/rapture at the Lord's coming (Mt. 24, 1 Cor. 15). Rev. 11:11 tells us they lie dead for 3 1/2 days. When they are raised, in that hour there is a great earthquake. Verse 14 tells us the second woe is past and the third woe is coming. We are in the middle of God's wrath as I understand the woes. Since believers are not destined for God's wrath, I see the resurrection/rapture of the elect as prior to the resurrection/rapture of the witnesses. God in His plan keeps the witnesses here during God's wrath and they are not raptured with the church. What do you think?
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:32 pm

NewlyborninChrist,

Thanks for jumping in...one of the reasons I am asking these questions is the whole concept of the murder of the witnesses and their resurrection. Is that earthquake the same one which occurs with the sign in the heavens for the return of Christ? If the witnesses are raised at the rapture, it would put their appearance before the midpoint in order to accomplish the 1260 days...but then would we be able to do the math and figure out when the Lord was coming back? And it seems the woes do happen during the trumpets which are after the sixth seal rapture so they are a part of the wrath. So then we're back to putting them beginning their ministry at the midpoint which leaves them on earth after the rapture. Which brings me to the question - what are they witnesses to? If the gospel, why leave them here after the rapture? But perhaps they are witnesses to the world of pending judgment, like the prophets of old who knew the captivities were coming and knew that sounding the alarm wouldn't cause national repentance. It would be consistent with the way God handled other times of judgment, wouldn't it? Only this time their witness is not just to Israel but to the whole world. Then no one could ever say they weren't warned!

Keep discussing - it's good to mull this together - and Newlyborn, when is your birthday?

Revelation12eleven - I agree that the Restrainer is currently restraining Satan and his minions and that a day is coming when he will be given free reign as a last ditch effort to retain the title deed to earth. So glad we have the ending...it is just another indication that God is sovereignly controlling all things - the Restrainer works for Him and Satan cannot do one single thing without God's permission.

As for your word allotment...sorry, have to mark you down, but your overall score is typically high...

Hey, has anyone seen Orange lately, or did I scare him away... :grin:

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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:25 am

revelation12eleven wrote:Hi Newlyborn,

We are given a time frame in which the two witnesses will prophesy. Rev. 11:3 says they will prophesy for 1260 days. If they appear at the AofD/GT, this puts their deaths at the end of the week. I find another reason why we can't place their resurrection/rapture with the resurrection/rapture at the Lord's coming (Mt. 24, 1 Cor. 15). Rev. 11:11 tells us they lie dead for 3 1/2 days. When they are raised, in that hour there is a great earthquake. Verse 14 tells us the second woe is past and the third woe is coming. We are in the middle of God's wrath as I understand the woes. Since believers are not destined for God's wrath, I see the resurrection/rapture of the elect as prior to the resurrection/rapture of the witnesses. God in His plan keeps the witnesses here during God's wrath and they are not raptured with the church. What do you think?



What makes you so sure the AofD happens at the middle of the week? The first 1260 days would be when the Body of Christ would be going through intense persecution if the wrath begins at the midpoint because when the wrath begins, we won't be here, so while the spirit is being poured out on all flesh, and we are standing strong in our faith under persecution from the enemy, his antichrist, and those who reject Christ, wouldn't it be plausible to think that the 2 witnesses could be in Jerusalem giving their warning to the world? They prophecy for 1260 days, their death begins the wrath and the wicked are lulled into a false sense of security for 3 1/2 days while they celebrate by "making merry and giving gifts to one another" then suddenly a shout, the trumpet of God, and all of those who died in Christ including the 2 witnesses are raised as a great earthquake rattles the entire world and the Lord's people are called up to meet him.

"Keep discussing - it's good to mull this together - and Newlyborn, when is your birthday?" quote from nike

As for my birthday in Christ honestly, I didn't record the date. I asked the Lord into my life during a difficult period so I couldn't tell you the exact date I was saved only that it was early December 2008. My actual physical date of birth is oddly enough September 9th, 1972 so yes I will celebrate my 37th year of life on 09/09/09 lol. Kinda creapy huh? I could be way off base on this but it's just something that spoke to me when I saw this thread so I thought I would throw it out there. Please feel free to correct me on anything I may be mistaken about and I will search the Word for discernment. The Lord does tell us to seek wise counsel and my knowledge of the Word is still very weak. So please share the Lord's light in your knowledge of scripture if you feel led by the spirit to do so.

:blessyou:

YBIC
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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:51 am

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. Rev 11:11-12

Sounds like the rapture to me...

[14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 11:14-19

Could the third woe be the beginning of the wrath of God? I also found some other things in the previous chapters that I need to study more so I will check them again and post more when I have more.

YBIC
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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:53 am

Hiya Nike-

So the angelic being is restraining the human government? Not sure what you mean by this, or perhaps you didn't answer the question - what is the angelic being (fine, I'll go ahead and say it, Michael) restraining? (please use ten words or less and full sentence is not required)


Not quite. Angelic being restraining iniquity via human government.

For what purpose are they witnessing to the whole world? To give the gospel? Why would they stay after the rapture?


To complete the gospel of the kingdom as begun by John the Baptist. It's an announcement that the king and the kingdom are coming. Repent or perish. Why wouldn't they stick around after the rapture?

I follow you on this one, Orange. Do you think that post-millennially (by which I think you mean within the mill, but at the end) that it will be the same Gog or a new Gog with the same heritage?


New Gog, same heritage.

You know, Nike, I'm starting to like the new word restrictions. This was about the quickest post I've typed in a long time. Now I'll post some other responses and it'll take me about an hour.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. Did you notice that I still had one word to spare? Hah!
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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:04 am

[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev 11: 11-13

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV

Notice the relationship between "the remnant" and "we which are alive" which I believe is those who have survived the first 3 1/2 years of the enemy's persecution and THEN after the dead in Christ, including the 2 witnesses are raised are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Just something to think about and study more on...

YBIC
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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:07 am

I kinda hijacked the thread didn't I lol oops

:fightfish:

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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:25 am

Hey Walldoctor-

While the idea of angelic authority is not contained in Romans 13, we certainly can see that God has ordained human government to restrain evil. This was set up in the Noahic Covenant. Mankind was allowed to organize in order that different societies would form to protect themselves from the evil nature within man. Before the flood there were no nations and it resulted in chaos. God's progressive plan allowed for organized mankind to punish individuals who break God's laws, Genesis 9:6. Even though the official commandment "thou shalt not kill" was not given until Sinai, the law of creation is appealed to here showing that mankind knows good from evil based on God revealed in creation.

The division into differing nations was crucial to God's plan for restraining evil. First, it was the next step in God's plan to redeem the world. Evil would be held in check by force. The threat of punishment would limit man from carrying out the evil that he is capable of. Second, God's plan would also include one nation called out and set apart for Himself, soon to be known as Israel. This could not happen unless nations had begun to form. Third, if any one entire nation became so wicked that it's own government was not restraining evil, God would use another nation to come in and restrain the evil through domination. This was the case when Israel took Canaan, also when other nations dominated Israel during the days of the judges, when David ascended the throne and conqered the nations, and when the times of the Gentiles began with Babylon and the colossus of Daniel 2.

So the idea in Romans 13 is the same principle that I'm operating under. God has ordained human government and backs it up when it does its job. God also uses other nations to step in when they fail to restrain evil. I believe we saw that in the days of the third reich. There will be an empire which will be so evil that God will demolish it Himself, but that will be once the restrainer has been removed. Human government will be allowed to turn completely against all true godliness for the time of the great tribulation.

Daniel 10:10-11:1 along with Daniel 12:1 show us a glimpse behind the scenes of human government from an angel's point of view. Gabriel has some insightful comments to show us his role (and Michael's) as it relates to the government of those days. Notice how there was a prince of Persia who stood against Gabriel for 21 days before Michael came to Gabriel's assistance. Gabriel was left there with the kings of Persia. We see both the physical and spiritual woven into one from the angel's point of view. Gabriel stands with the physical rulers, but also wrestles against these other rulers in high places. Gabriel also knew the next empire that would arise as early as the third year of Cyrus, which was probably only the third year of the Medo-Persian Empire. Daniel 11:1 is probably the best verse to illustrate the principle. Gabrial stood alongside Darius the Mede in the first year of his reign. The purpose of this was to confirm and strengthen him in his reign. Angelic being working through human government.

Revelation unfolds the development of Michael and gang throwing Satan out of the heavenly places. Once this occurs, Satan is allowed to call the beast from the sea with seven heads and ten horns. Since here in Revelation 13:1 the crowns are upon the ten horns as opposed to the crowns being on the seven heads as they are in Revelation 12:3, this shows that Satan has been allowed to form a ten nation alliance with the power given to the ten kings. So the continuity between Revelation 12 and 13 must be viewed in light of the governmental structure that will result in Michael withdrawing heavenly restraint of evil through human government.

So I personally thing that Romans 13 has insights for this discussion.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:28 am

[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
[8] And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
[9] And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
[10] And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Rev 10:7-11

Hmmm...Could John be one of the two witnesses?

YBIC
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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:41 am

Hey Rob-

I've had some thoughts concerning the two witnesses that run contrary to the norm. Consider the following if you would. The two witnesses are given 1260 days total to prophesy. Then we have a description of their basic ministry of prophesying, breathing fire, and smiting the earth with plagues. (Just an average day in the life of a prophet.) Then they are killed, lie dead for 3 1/2, then are resurrected.

Now catch this, then they stand on their feet and great fear comes upon all who see them. In reading the passage, it may seem at first like they ascend up into heaven after being alive for about an hour or so, but it really doesn't specify how quickly they ascend up into heaven. They may be witnessed by the watching world for a week, a month, or perhaps three months. We really don't know. The event of their death and resurrection seems to be under the umbrella of the sixth trumpet which should be quite close to the end of the 70th week, but exactly how close are we?

I've been told that the weakness of this view is that the text states that their death occurs "when they have finished their testimony" which we know to be 1260 days. But my point is that the 1260 days is the total time of their testimony including any time after their resurrection as well.

Now, I usually go with the norm concerning the two witnesses beginning their testimony right around the midpoint of the week in conjunction with the trampling down of Jerusalem for the final 42 months. The text of Revelation 11:1-3 seems to link the two time periods together as being contemporary. Since after the 42 months of Jerusalem being trampled down we would fully expect the Messianic Kingdom to be ushered in (see Revelation 11:15), we know that this 42 months or 1260 days is the final 3 1/2 years at the end of this age.

I believe that the rapture occurs leaving the two witnesses behind for God's purposes. It's not like they will be excluded from the Messianic Kingdom. They will just enter by remaining here a bit longer than the rest of the church at large. God has a different purpose for these highly privileged servants.

BTW, I don't think it's highjacking the thread since input was asked on the timing of the two witnesses. Let's hammer this stuff out.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:12 am

Then we have a description of their basic ministry of prophesying, breathing fire, and smiting the earth with plagues. (Just an average day in the life of a prophet.)
:lol:
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:21 am

Orange,

Though I too am left scratching my head sometimes...most of the time I get really excited because what you say makes sense. Your thoughts to Walldoctor...good stuff.

Newlyborn,

Orange is a great resource in which to hammer out the scriptures...check out his blog...you'll find great stuff there too.
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:35 pm

Rob,

You wrote:

"What makes you so sure the AofD happens at the middle of the week? The first 1260 days would be when the Body of Christ would be going through intense persecution if the wrath begins at the midpoint because when the wrath begins, we won't be here, so while the spirit is being poured out on all flesh, and we are standing strong in our faith under persecution from the enemy, his antichrist, and those who reject Christ, wouldn't it be plausible to think that the 2 witnesses could be in Jerusalem giving their warning to the world? They prophecy for 1260 days, their death begins the wrath and the wicked are lulled into a false sense of security for 3 1/2 days while they celebrate by "making merry and giving gifts to one another" then suddenly a shout, the trumpet of God, and all of those who died in Christ including the 2 witnesses are raised as a great earthquake rattles the entire world and the Lord's people are called up to meet him."

We put the AofD in the middle of the week for a couple of reasons - because Daniel 9:24-27 gives us the timeline for the final "week" and he says that at the midpoint he puts a stop to sacrifices and gives the AC the abomination description. Then in Matthew 24:15 Jesus points to the AofD, referencing Daniel, and tells believers to flee because the Great Tribulation is about to begin. To put the rapture at the midpoint is contrary to Jesus' warning since since He not only points to Daniel's timeline, but then warns of the persecution and tells them to look for the the sign of His return in the heaven, which we also know as the 6th seal. I personally don't think God needs three and a half years for His wrath either - it's going to come at a pretty rapid pace.

I do know some people who believe the resurrection of the two witnesses happen at the rapture as well, but if that happens, then the 1260 days have to start before the mid-point. (Slick...are you going to jump in on this one???) I tend to think they stay on earth beyond the rapture and continue to witness - isn't it in Ecclesiastes that says it is appointed for man once to die? If these witnesses aren't Elijah and Enoch, then these poor guys have to die twice! But either way, the fact that they aren't raptured obviously isn't a reflection of their spiritual condition but rather a reflection of their purpose and calling. Perhaps they continue to witness and are instrumental in the national salvation of Israel...

Thanks for sharing your testimony! Welcome to the family...for a babe in Christ, you sure didn't sit around and drink a bottle for long! Pretty meaty stuff jumping into eschatology! I'm impressed...

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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:41 pm

Orange,

I liked your post on Romans 13 as well...do you think that perhaps America's restrainer has already been lifted? The speed at which the ungodly decisions have flowed from Washington in the past six months is mind-boggling...

The thought of The Restrainer being removed is a frightening one. The evil that we have seen in the world from history to present has all occurred within restraints. Remove the restraints and add the delusion and it's not even joke worthy, it's so frightening! I am curious, Orange, when does the delusion begin? At the mid-point as well? What do you think?

nike

By the way, I think your scarf looks like a prayer shawl...
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:50 pm

I'm just wondering who is going take over America because she no longer seems to be interested in restraining evil, or do we go straight into the Satanic domination of AC? Nike, I agree with you, these thoughts are frightening, but how thankful I am we are overcomers because of THE OVERCOMER.
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:52 pm

Orange, you must have had the day off...you are posting here when most mailmen are out posting in real mailboxes... :grin:
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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:50 pm

I wrote a post on Romans 13? Oh wait...

Hey Overcomer, I'm on vacation this week. That's why I didn't post at all yesterday, vacation plans. BTW, pool party at my house this Saturday if you can make it. Bring a dish to pass if you want to eat at 5:00p.m.

Hiya Nike-

No I don't think the USA's restrainer has been lifted. No government is perfect and indeed cannot be perfect until the Messiah comes. See my latest post on my blog. God has worked in spite of the USA not because of the USA. I'm going to write another post in the next couple of weeks which will contain the phrase that the USA cannot turn back to God. The idea is that the USA was never in a right relationship with God. From the beginning we've been self centered. Our inception was based on our rights to my life, my liberty, and my pursuit of happiness. How much more self-centered can you get? Slavery was written into our founding documents. And it wasn't based on lack of income, it was based on race. But I digress...

When does the delusion begin? I"m going to pull an Extravagant Christian here.

I don't know. Plus I'm over my word limit.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Prayer shawl? :humm: :humm: :humm:

I didn't realize there was such a thing. For men even?
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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:12 pm

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:11

A few questions for consideration:

Does the midst of the week have to be the middle of the week or could it refer to sometime during the week perhaps earlier maybe sometime within the week as opposed to the exact middle of the week? The reason I ask is this: How can it take 2300 days for the sanctuary to be cleansed or consecrated if there are only 1260 days left in the tribulation? Wouldn't the sanctuary be cleansed at the time that the Lord touches his feet down on the Mount of Olives? So 2300 days earlier would suggest to me that the AofD would be early in the GT. So where does this 1290 days come into play? Not sure about this but maybe the witnesses appear 30 days after the AofD. Any thoughts? Some of the newer translations refer to the "midst" as the "middle" but I gotta stick with the KJV myself.


Pronunciation:
\ˈmidst, ˈmitst\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English middest, alteration of middes, short for amiddes amid
Date:
15th century

1 : the interior or central part or point : middle <in the midst of the forest> 2 : a position of proximity to the members of a group <a traitor in our midst> 3 : the condition of being surrounded or beset <in the midst of his troubles> 4 : a period of time about the middle of a continuing act or condition <in the midst of a meal>

The definition seems to suggest that it would be the middle but I'm not sure. Does anybody know the Hebrew word/s associated with this part of the scripture and their translation in Greek and English?

YBIC

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Re: Timeline list

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:16 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:I didn't realize there was such a thing. For men even?


http://www.galleryjudaica.com/Category.aspx?category=8
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:56 pm

Orange, your Romans 13 comments sparked a great discussion between my husband and I. Looking forward to your blog post. By the way, Gog during the last half of the Week and then at the end of the Millennium is making more and more sense, between what you post here and at your blog. (Thanks for the invitation...I make a great potato salad...)
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:22 pm

Thanks for the help, Abiding...I just figured with a prayer shawl, his beard and that beanie, maybe he was Jewish? :mrgreen:
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:49 pm

Rob,

I believe that in Daniel you have what is called a near/far prophecy. Prophets would prophecy near events that when they were accomplished would validate a later or far event. In Daniel, his near/far is Antiochus Epiphanes/Anti-Christ. There are many similarities between the two and their desecration of the Temple. I believe the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel 8 was a reference to the near prophecy, where Antiochus Epiphanes persecuted the Jews for 2300 days, from 171 B.C. to December 25, 165 B.C. when Maccabees restored the Temple. I believe that is commonly agreed to be a fulfilled near prophecy. The 1260 days is a part of the far prophecy, similar in parallels to the near prophecy but with its own unique details. This is another reason why the assumption of the desecration is at the mid-point - because of the 1260 day time frame. (Keep in mind we are using a 360 prophetic calendar.) As for the 1290 days, I am not as well versed on this subject, but have read a bit. The theory goes that after the end of the 70th week, there is a reclamation period of 30 days. As I have said, I haven't studied it too much and I am sure that someone else could better explain that extra 30 days.

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Re: Timeline list

Postby WallDoctor on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:13 pm

nike wrote:I think you're reading too much into Romans 13.


I didn't mean to imply that I believed that Romans 13 applied to the angelic Restrainer. I was just asking Orange Mailman if that was the idea he was getting at. At least that's what it sounded like to me he was saying. Mine was a question of clarification, not a statement of what I think.

I personally think there are multiple small "r" restrainers just as there are multiple small "a" antichrists. Government, Angels, Conscience, Lack of opportunity, fear of men, laziness, etc. would all be restrainers.

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Re: Timeline list

Postby WallDoctor on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:35 pm

nike wrote:If these witnesses aren't Elijah and Enoch, then these poor guys have to die twice!



Huh? Did I miss something? I thought you believed the two witnesses would be Moses and Elijah? (Enoch makes sense though)


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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:57 pm

So Orange, any thoughts on who the two witnesses might be? You've probably posted on it elsewhere?
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:54 am

Walldoctor,

I don't necessarily have a guess who the two witnesses are. I have heard that because olive trees and lampstands are used to describe them, that one would be a witness to the Old Covenant (OT) and the other a witness to the New Covenant (NT), so, like, Moses and John. I've also heard Moses and Elijah, since they appeared at the transfiguration. Add to that Elijah and Enoch to fulfill the "it is appointed for all men to die once" verse. I am wondering if they could actually be angelic. The power they possess (as far as the fire coming out of their mouth and consuming their enemies) is way beyond any sign or miracle that a prophet of old performed, though the plagues and water to blood has been done before. And this would eliminate the issue of a human dying a second time. So, do you think it could be possible that God sends down 2 angels in human form? I'm not sure how their death would happen, unless it was the death of their physical bodies...

Sorry about my misunderstanding of you Romans 13 post. And I agree with your "r" and "a" comment - I just think there is a lot less "r" and a lot more "a" in Washington...in America these days.

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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:28 am

nike wrote:Rob,

I believe that in Daniel you have what is called a near/far prophecy. Prophets would prophecy near events that when they were accomplished would validate a later or far event. In Daniel, his near/far is Antiochus Epiphanes/Anti-Christ. There are many similarities between the two and their desecration of the Temple. I believe the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel 8 was a reference to the near prophecy, where Antiochus Epiphanes persecuted the Jews for 2300 days, from 171 B.C. to December 25, 165 B.C. when Maccabees restored the Temple. I believe that is commonly agreed to be a fulfilled near prophecy. The 1260 days is a part of the far prophecy, similar in parallels to the near prophecy but with its own unique details. This is another reason why the assumption of the desecration is at the mid-point - because of the 1260 day time frame. (Keep in mind we are using a 360 prophetic calendar.) As for the 1290 days, I am not as well versed on this subject, but have read a bit. The theory goes that after the end of the 70th week, there is a reclamation period of 30 days. As I have said, I haven't studied it too much and I am sure that someone else could better explain that extra 30 days.

nike


Thanks nike I asked my Pastor about it last night and he confirmed what you are saying about the near/far prophecy.

YBIC
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Re: Timeline list

Postby NewlyBorninChrist on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:29 am

Didn't Lazarus die twice?

YBIC
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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:53 am

Now that is interesting Nike, the witnesses being angelic beings. I was reading in Rev. 16 this morning... the bowls and how they are administered by angels... 1) loathsome sores 2) seas to blood 3) rivers and springs to blood 4) men scorched with fire/heat...hmm...

My mind has been racing these past couple of days with the thought of evil no longer being restrained...on a worldwide scale...Revelation 11:15 has suddenly taken on a precious new meaning..."The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." The devil will have such great wrath, knowing his time of reigning is short after he is kicked out of heaven. Colossians 1:13 is also more precious..."For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son..."
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Re: Timeline list

Postby nike on Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:57 am

NewlyBorninChrist wrote:Didn't Lazarus die twice?

YBIC
Rob



Hmmm...yeah....good one...

Overcomer - it's really going to be a remarkable time, both before and after the wrath...not sure if I want to be in the game or have a courtside seat...

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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:02 am

There is something else I thought about Nike...the specific number...1260. It gives hope to the elect. Satan's wrath will last less than 1260 days. At the maximum...1,110 days... with the 5th trumpet being 150 days... Those with understanding can encourage those who are losing heart...(Luke 18).
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Re: Timeline list

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:41 am

Hey Overcomer-

In my opinion, the two witnesses will fulfill the prophecies surrounding Elijah coming before the Day of the LORD, Malachi 4:5-6. It seems that Malachi 3:1 is also a reference to this individual later named as Elijah. If that's the case, we have references to Moses in these prophecies as well. In Malachi 3:1 we have "the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in". To any Israelite, this would have been Moses. So it seems that there are two messengers in this verse, my messenger to prepare the way and the messenger of the covenant.

Then later in Malachi 4, if we include verse 4 in the passage there is a reference to Moses as well. They are commanded to remember the law of Moses, then the promise to send Elijah. Because Moses represented the law to Israel, and Elijah was the most powerful prophet, these two men represent the law and the prophets.

While explaining to the disciples that John the Baptist was Elijah for that generation, Jesus also affirmed that there would be a future coming of Elijah, Matthew 17:9-13. He states, "Elijah does come and will restore all things." This would be a reference back to Malachi 4:5-6 where it states that he would turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. That would be the restoration that Jesus was speaking of.

Since John the Baptist was not literally Elijah risen from the dead, or back from heaven, or whatever you want to write, I don't believe there is any reason to believe that Elijah in the future as one of the two witnesses will be Elijah literally back here on earth. John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy by going forth in the spirit and power of Elijah. So the two witnesses could go forth in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah and fulfill this prophecy.

The language of two olive trees and two lampstands is a clear reference back to Zechariah 4. The two olive trees in this chapter refer to the two anointed ones of that day which are named so often throughout Zechariah's prophecy. They are Zerubbabel and Joshua the son of Jehozadak. Each one was an anointed one for that day. Zerubbabel was the heir to the throne of David being the grandson of Jeconiah, I Chronicles 3:16-19, but in coming to Jerusalem took the title of governor over the city of Jerusalem. He was one of the leaders in rebuilding the temple. Joshua was the son of Jehozadak who served as the final high priest when Israel entered into the Babylonian captivity, I Chronicles 6:15. So Joshua came back to Jerusalem and served as high priest after the 70 years expired. Joshua held an anointed office which could not be touched by Satan, Zechariah 3. It is interesting that Haggai's prophecy is directed at Zerubbabel and Joshua. So between Zerubbabel as heir to the throne of David and Joshua as the high priest of the lineage of Aaron, no mountain could stand before these two olive trees, Zechariah 4:7.

So what does it mean in Revelation that John sees a vision which mirrors the imagery of Zechariah's vision? It reinforces a literal interpretation of the passage. These are two men, not two symbols of something else. The olive trees and lampstands are the symbols, but the men are the actual interpretation. So I don't believe we can say that these two witnesses are the church. Now if I might extrapolate just a bit. Since the governor over Jerusalem and the high priest were the two anointed ones who led the children of Israel in those days, couldn't the LORD use the exact same two offices in the future? If the priesthood is restored at a future temple upon Mount Zion before the abomination of desolation, we would also have the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood. Someone would have to serve as high priest. I'm not entirely certain about a governmental leader within Israel. It could be the president, prime minister, or a future governor over the city of Jerusalem. But the LORD could use these two leaders to witness to the children of Israel which remain in Jerusalem during that final 42 months.

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Re: Timeline list

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:35 pm

I agree with you Orange, the witnesses will be real, live men. Your extrapolation as to who they might be is quite intriguing. My potato salad recipe is much easier to read than you are sometimes...but I sure do enjoy wading through your thoughts and insights. Thanks.
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