Joel 2:28- a timing question

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Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:10 am

Joel 2:28,29 says: "It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

This passage is used to support increased visions amongst believers as we draw near to the last days. It has been used here at FP recently and it has brought a few contextual questions to mind. I know some of us come from different perspectives as to the literal or symbolic fulfillment of scripture, and I don't mean to offend, but I am looking for some literal help here.

The context of Joel is the Day of the Lord. Immediately after these two verses the signs in the heavens are described and the "great and awesome day of the Lord" is mentioned. Previous to these verses you see the desolation of Israel as well as the mention of the DOTL (2:1-11) and you see the salvation and restoration of Israel (2:18-27). Then you come to these verses.

My questions are as follows - it says, "It will come about AFTER THIS" - after what? The desolation and the restoration of Israel? But then it goes right into the DOTL and the restoration is at the end of the DOTL. Is it proper to use these verses to validate current visions or is this a prophecy for Israel upon its restoration?

I am looking for a little clarification here from someone who has studied this...I am hoping Orange and Smackbucket show up because I think this is right up their alley, but anyone feel free to jump in!

Thanks,

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:16 am

nike wrote:My questions are as follows - it says, "It will come about AFTER THIS" - after what?


Hi nike,

I can't speak to the "after this" question, but....

Is it proper to use these verses to validate current visions....


I don't think there's any question that these verses validate current visions, dreams, and prophecy simply because Peter clearly confirms the events of Pentecost are those prophesied by Joel.

"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days,' god says, 'that I will pour forth of my spirit on all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of my spirit And they shall prophesy. Act 2:15-18

I am looking for a little clarification here from someone who has studied this...I am hoping Orange and Smackbucket show up because I think this is right up their alley


That would be nice, I agree!
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:32 pm

Nike-

The book of Joel is short, so an exhaustive study of the book as a whole is not exhausting. I'm just going to give some basic pointers. Since we are in the PreWrath section, there is no need to debate futurism or anything else.

Joel is written from the prophet's point of view. There was an immediate crisis in Joel's day, but the ultimate crisis will be in the future for the nation of Israel. There are three things that God uses to get the nation of Israel's attention. #1- The famine brought on by locusts along with drought, 1:2-7, 10-12, 17-20. #2- The sacrifices being cut off from the temple, 1:8-9, 13-16. #3- An approaching army which devastates anything in its path, 2:1-11. All three of these things prove to the nation of Israel that God is trying to get their attention and provoke them to repentance. Sometime in the future, there will be famine in the land of Israel, someone will put a stop to the sacrifices at the temple, and an army will be approaching Jerusalem fully able to annihilate her. This will be during the great tribulation which begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week with the abomination of desolation.

So when we get to Joel 2:12-17, we as futurists can only look at this in one fashion. This is a call for the nation of Israel to repent in order that God rise up from His place to act on the nation's behalf. The call is for a fast and genuine repentance. Even little nursing babies must participate in this fast for national repentance. Once the nation has demonstrated true national repentance to the LORD, His reaction is contained in 2:18-27. God begins to act on behalf of the nation of Israel. #1- He deals with the famine by promising to replenish all the fruit that didn't come during the famine and drought. Israel will become a fruitful land flowing with milk and honey as God originally intended. #2- The approaching army is dealt with by the LORD Himself. He promises to send them into the sea. #3- What will God do about the sacrifices at the temple? There is nothing direct here, but I think we can see God's plan at work. He plans on personally living among His people as their God. So there will be more than a temple, there will be the actual presence of the living God in the nation of Israel.

Now we get to Joel 2:28-32 which is quoted by PreWrathers all the time to prove the timing of the Day of the LORD. But I think many PreWrathers are struggling as you are to see how it all fits together beyond that. It's a good point that we make about the timing of the Day of the LORD, but what about your question?

If we take this in context, "afterward" would be after the repentance of the nation of Israel. When the nation of Israel repents as previously mentioned, then these events will unfold and lead into the Day of the LORD. When the nation of Israel repents, God pours out His Spirit upon all flesh, meaning upon all believing flesh in the nation of Israel. Those who have just repented will receive this promised Holy Spirit. Manifestations of this Holy Spirit are explained in 2:28-29. Then wonders will occur in the heavens and on the earth, 2:30. The sun, moon, and stars (also known as the cosmic signs) will go dark just before the Day of the LORD arrives, 2:31. Anyone who calls upon the name of the LORD will be saved, and He promises there will be a remnant upon Mount Zion, 2:32. Now I'm certain that we have a clear reference to the 144,000 in this section, Rev. 14:1-5.

Just to make sure you are still with me, sometime in the future, the nation of Israel will repent. It will be after the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Great Tribulation. When the nation of Israel repents, God begins to act on Israel's behalf. When this happens, the nation of Israel will be immersed in the Holy Spirit. They will enter into that relationship whereby God will be their national God forever. The 144,000 will be the first to be sealed, but the entire nation will be saved. The repentance of Israel triggers this event known as the Day of the LORD. But just before it begins we have the cosmic signs, sealing of the 144,000, then the rapture.

Now let's take a turn that you may not have been expecting. Let's look at the reaction of the nation of Israel on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God, the nation of Israel as a whole did not repent, but a remnant did. This remnant received the promised Holy Spirit since they had repented. This remnant consisted of the 12 apostles, then the 70 disciples, then the 120 in the upper room. Then on the day of Pentecost, everyone who repented received that promised Holy Spirit.

When Peter preaches his sermon on Pentecost, he explains that the speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit as promised by Joel. "This is what was uttered by Joel". Peter was claiming that repentance in the nation of Israel had occurred and the presence of the Holy Spirit was proof. But when Peter quotes Joel, he changes one phrase. If you notice, the phrase "afterward" is not here. Instead, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter substitutes the phrase "in the last days". So the repentance of this remnant opened up the time of the last days before the actual Day of the LORD. We are living in the last days of the end of this age. The entire nation needs to repent as a whole in order for the eschatological event to be triggered. Peter saw the nation of Israel standing on the precipice of entering the Messianic Kingdom. But the nation wouldn't repent despite the promised presence of the Holy Spirit.

Peter knew that once the nation as a whole repented that Jesus would come. In Acts 3:18-21, Peter states that the religious leaders should "Repent" so that He [the LORD] may send you Messiah Jesus. So many people think that when Jesus comes again that it will prompt the nation of Israel to repent, when actually the reverse is the case. When the nation of Israel repents, then that prompts the coming of the LORD in power and glory. Now the only way that the nation will repent is by God leading them into the time of Jacob's trouble.

The nation of Israel failing to repent has opened up the way for Gentiles to receive the Holy Spirit and be a part of this outpouring. So the current indwelling of the Holy Spirit, His leading His guiding, the visions and revelation we receive from the LORD, this is all because of the promised Holy Spirit of Joel 2:28. We are receiving it in advance of the Messianic Kingdom. So we are living proof that Messiah is coming and that the nation of Israel as a whole will repent sometime in the future. That's the nature of what Paul was trying to communicate in Romans 11. Gentiles currently being saved will result in national salvation for Israel. During the Great Tribulation, God will use the above three events and a jealousy of the church to provoke Israel into repenting. It's God's plan for the future.

Any questions?

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:57 pm

Any questions?


Just one from me....

So when Peter was quoting the prophet Joel in Acts 2, part of his quote was currently being fulfilled and the latter part (in red) of his quote is future?

Act 2:17 'And it shall be in the last days,' god says, 'that I will pour forth of my spirit on all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 even on my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of my spirit and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
Act 2:20 'The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the lord shall come.
Act 2:21 'And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved.'


Perhaps Peter didn't know how far in the future the rest might be, right? So this is one of those near/far prophetic fulfillments?

And thank you for that wonderful overview of the book of Joel!
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:04 pm

So a question for you Orange, if national Israel repents prior to the rapture and the DOTL, wouldn't they be caught up then with all the saints? (Sorry Nike if I'm taking the discussion a bit off course...)
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:42 pm

Abiding in His Word-

Yes that's pretty much the way I see it. Peter quotes Joel to show that this manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not the result of anything on earth (like wine), but something supernatural promised by God in the prophets. This pouring out could only happen when the nation repents. The nation as a whole did not repent, but in Peter's mind, maybe His preaching could spur them on to repentance. As the judgement which John the Baptist preached loomed over the head of the nation, there was a way of escape - join the Kingdom of God by repenting and being baptized.

A judgement came in 70AD, but not THE judgement. The nation of Israel would be dispersed, but God's Word would still be fulfilled as we see by the rebirth of the nation of Israel. Now circumstances are being realigned so as to fulfill the words of Joel and Peter when the nation of Israel repents. And there is nothing that anyone can do to stop God from fulfilling His promises to the nation of Israel, including the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the nation as they repent nationally.

So I agree that Peter saw that portion as in the future. There is no mention of the sun going dark on that day. Plus Joel 3 is explanatory as to what will occur during the day of the LORD. The valley of decision is akin to the valley of Megiddo, aka, Armageddon. So the Day of the LORD preceded by cosmic signs is clearly future. Further, the progressive nature of the seals in Revelation places the cosmic signs after the time of the Great Tribulation as does the Olivet Discourse.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:49 pm

Hey Overcomer-

I agree with Rosenthal on the point that the sealing actually precedes the rapture. The sealing occurs to preserve a remnant of believing Israelites through the time of God's wrath. They are specifically ordained by God to remain here. Although they are believers, God has a designation for them here on earth. I don't ascribe to what is popularly termed a partial rapture, but I do believe that these 144,000 will remain behind even though they are believers. Here's a quote from Rosenthal.

"The symmetry, balance, and timing of Revelation 7 should not be
missed. With chapter 8, the Day of the Lord will begin. Therefore,
in chapter 7 the church is raptured. But immediately prior to the
Rapture of the church, the 144,000 Jews are sealed. It is almost
like a baton being passed between runners. The 144,000 must be
sealed for protection to go through the Day of the Lord before the
church can be caught up to the throne in heaven. God will not leave
Himself without a people on the earth."


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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:33 pm

Thank you, Orange - that helps. I'm going to have to chew on this a bit. I hadn't heard the 144,000 being believers who were sealed concept before. I thought they were sealed for protection and for a future salvation at the end of the 70th week. As a matter of fact I thought they were given salvation when Jesus would lead them from their hiding place in Azel on their way to Jerusalem, fulfilling the Psalms of Ascents. I will have to look further into what you have posted. Thanks for the quick and lengthy response.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:57 am

Okay, thought about it for a while. Orange, where do you and Marv see the fact that the 144,000 are saved but "left behind" at the rapture? Is it their sealing? I just don't see any indication of this in the Olivet Discourse - no warning that some believers will be purposefully left behind. Help me with this one...
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:04 am

I have some questions for you too...(we aren't trying to gang up on you, I promise!) I looked at the Acts 3 passage. What is "the times of refreshing"? Peter says repent so the times of refreshing may come... If it is the millennial kingdom, their repentance could occur then after the rapture, couldn't it? The sending of Jesus in that passage could be when He actually comes down to Mt. Zion? Verse 21 says "whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things"...at the rapture He is still in the heavens so His sending in this verse might refer to His coming forth from Mt. Zion? Are the 144,000 the all Israel that is saved? They are said to be the first fruits so is there more than them? (I know, I've asked you this question before... :mrgreen: )
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby smackbucket on Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:59 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:Hey Overcomer-

I agree with Rosenthal on the point that the sealing actually precedes the rapture. The sealing occurs to preserve a remnant of believing Israelites through the time of God's wrath. They are specifically ordained by God to remain here. Although they are believers, God has a designation for them here on earth. I don't ascribe to what is popularly termed a partial rapture, but I do believe that these 144,000 will remain behind even though they are believers. Here's a quote from Rosenthal.

"The symmetry, balance, and timing of Revelation 7 should not be
missed. With chapter 8, the Day of the Lord will begin. Therefore,
in chapter 7 the church is raptured. But immediately prior to the
Rapture of the church, the 144,000 Jews are sealed. It is almost
like a baton being passed between runners. The 144,000 must be
sealed for protection to go through the Day of the Lord before the
church can be caught up to the throne in heaven. God will not leave
Himself without a people on the earth."


Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman



Orange,

I just stopped in for lunch between jobs and saw this, so I don't have time to get to everything, but I wanted to point something out. I don't believe Rosenthal is in agreement with you. Yes, he agrees with you that the 144 are sealed before the rapture, but not that they are sealed with salvation to be left behind. Notice that he says, "The 144,000 must be sealed for protection to go through the Day of the Lord before the church can be caught up to the throne in heaven."

If he was referring to them being sealed with salvation before the rapture, it seems odd that he would claim that the CHURCH would be raptured after the sealing of the 144. If they were sealed with salvation before the rapture, wouldn't they BE the Church before the rapture? Of course they would. But as you know, we differ on this issue. :)
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:57 pm

Nike-

I'll post some thoughts here, but I'm also going to respond to Overcomer and Smackbucket. Peruse them all for a complete picture.

There is no statement in scripture that tells us that God will alway preserve a remnant. But this seems to be how He operates. God seems to have a modus operandi of always preserving a remnant of believers. And since the birth of the nation of Israel, there always has been a remnant of Israelites who trust in the LORD. God could have destroyed Israel many times for their unfaithfulness, but there always was a godly remnant. Isaiah 1:9 is quoted by Paul in Romans 9:29 to show that God was currently preserving a remnant in those days despite the national blindness of the nation of Israel. Remember that Gentiles have been grafted in to the ancient faith of Abraham, the father of all who believe. We as Gentiles are not supporting the remnant of Israelites, rather they are supporting us, Romans 11:17-24.

So part of this idea is that God will provide a people here on the earth to reflect His glory at all times. He will not remove every single believer at once, but will break into the affairs of mankind to bring Israel to that place of prominence in the Messianic Kingdom. It will begin by sealing 144,000 Israelites who will be His people in the age to come.

Another issue is one of chronology. Revelation 14:1-5 gives us the other description of the 144,000. Now if you believe we are still in the midst of the description of the great tribulation at this point, you have a serious issue if you believe these are not saved. They are described as following the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed and have their Father's name written in their foreheads. The relationship to God and the Lamb here is intensely personal.

Before this, in chapter 13, the complete description of the great tribulation has been given, mark of the beast and all. Now just after the description of the 144,000, the gospel is being preached, Rev. 14:6-7. If you cross reference Mark 13:10, we see that the gospel must be preached throughout all nations before the coming of Christ's cuts the great tribulation short. So in Revelation 14:6-7, the subject matter is still the great tribulation. Then in Rev. 14:9-12, we have the announcement of the doom of all who receives the mark of the beast. It is a sober warning for those in the midst of the great tribulation, and comfort for the saints to know that they will be spared the wrath of God. So the subject matter is still the great tribulation.

Then comes the rapture of the church as described in Revelation 14:14-16. Jesus comes as the Son of Man on a cloud, He reaps the grain harvest to Himself. Then what is left is "overripe" for the angel with the sickle to reap and cast into the winepress of God's wrath. This language is remniscient of the parable of the wheat and the tares. So after this point in time, the subject matter will not be the great tribulation, but the wrath of God.

So when we read the description of the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-5, it seems quite simple to see a believing remnant of Israelites in the midst of the great tribulation. The only problem seems to be a dispensational extrapolation that all believers must go up in the rapture. Both groups will be here on earth in the Messianic Kingdom. Both will receive the promise of protection from the wrath of God. Both will rule with Messiah here on earth during the 1000 year kingdom. It's just a question of how they will enter. Will they ascend up first, or remain here?

I see two parallels in the story of Noah and Lot. Jesus used both. Noah was preverved through the wrath of God. God protected Noah and his family through the flood and once they stepped off the ark, they inherited the new earth. Lot on the other hand, was transported out from the place of wrath by angels. He did not remain in Sodom and Gomorrah through the wrath. I believe that Israel (the 144,000) will be preserved through the wrath, while the rest of the current assembly of believers will be raptured out.

Remember also that the book of Acts was a transition from the nation of Israel being God's people, to the inclusion of Gentiles within the spiritual body of the church. The book of Revelation is also a transition. But it will not be a transition backwards, it will be a transition forwards into the Messianic Kingdom. But Israel will be the centerpiece. The nation of Israel will hold that place of prominence among the Gentile nations, and Revelation acts as a transition into that Messianic Kingdom.

Alright, that's enough for now. I've got two more posts to write.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:36 pm

What is "the times of refreshing"? Peter says repent so the times of refreshing may come... If it is the millennial kingdom, their repentance could occur then after the rapture, couldn't it? The sending of Jesus in that passage could be when He actually comes down to Mt. Zion? Verse 21 says "whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things"...at the rapture He is still in the heavens so His sending in this verse might refer to His coming forth from Mt. Zion?


Overcomer-

Actually I like it better when people gang up on me. It's sort of like turning up the temperature in the kitchen. If you don't like the heat, then stay out.

The terminology you are using would be agreeable with many PreTribbers. First there is the coming of Christ to rapture the church, then sometime after that there is the physical return of Christ to the earth. While I believe there is a progression to the events at the coming of Christ, I believe there is only one coming.

The times of refreshing and the restoration would certainly refer to the Messianic Kingdom. And Christ must rule from Mount Zion in the Messianic Kingdom. Immediately after this mention of refreshing/restoration, Peter quotes the prophecy of Moses which states that another prophet like Moses will come, Acts 3:22-23, Deuteronomy 18:15. Stephen also quotes this prophecy in the sermon that got him stoned to death Acts 7:37. Stephen makes the stinging point that the same Moses which the nation of Israel rejected is the same one who was the Deliverer and Savior for the nation of Israel, Acts 7:35. So by their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, they have actually proved that Jesus is the Messiah.

So the timeline of Moses has two presentations to the nation of Israel separated by a period of exile. At the first presentation they rejected him. At the second, he came to deliver them with power, signs, plagues, and miracles. It will be the same with Jesus, Luke 19:12-15.

Now the rapture will be one of the first events in that coming, but it will be one coming. The word for coming in reference to the rapture in I Thess. 4:15 is parousia. It means physical bodily presence. It is a noun as opposed to a verb. So it doesn’t really refer to His movement from one place to another as much as His presence/arrival here on earth. I forget which PreWrath author made this comparison, but they likened the parousia to a decathlon. There are many things that happen at a decathlon, but it’s all one big event. That’s what the coming of Jesus will be like. Many things will happen in a certain order, but it’s all one event.

So to get back to the question, when it says that “He may send the Messiah appointed for you”, that would be the actually sending which would result in a bodily presence here on earth. The rapture will be first on the agenda. The times of refreshing would be during the Messianic Kingdom which will be established after all the hubbub dies down. But the repentance of Israel would precede all of this.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:08 pm

Hey Smackbucket-

You may have a point about Rosenthal. I don't want to misrepresent him here. So I'll post a bit more.

First off, if you notice in the quote above, it also states that "God will not leave Himself without a people on the earth" . Rosenthal’s whole point in this chapter has been to prove that the multitude of Revelation 7:9-17 is the church. These are the very people of God. So in seeing the 144,000 as the people of God remaining here on the earth would be a good inference from his quote.

But here is an earlier quote which would be unfair to leave out.

The 144,000 are also said to be “the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb” (Rev. 14:4). They are the forerunner of a host of Jewish people who will survive the Day of the Lord and come to the Savior at the end of the seventieth week. Nowhere in the Bible are they called evangelists, as has been popularly proclaimed. And whether they are regenerated (saved) at the time of their sealing (Rev. 7:4) or sealed for physical protection and later regenerated (Rev. 14:4) is a matter of speculation. What is abundantly clear and was obviously important to the angel is the fact that 144,000 Jews must be sealed before the Day of the Lord wrath begins. Details may be debated; but that central fact cannot be.

My view of what Rosenthal is saying is that he doesn’t want to come out and specifically say that they are saved at the time of sealing since some might disagree with him, but as he sets forth the quote which states that “God will not leave Himself without a people on the earth,” that seems to be the piece of evidence that tips the scales to show that he believes that these 144,000 are His people at the time of the sealing. They belong to Him at that time.

But now let’s look at a later work of Rosenthal to perhaps clarify even further. In the Nov./Dec. 2008 issue of Zion’s Fire, Rosenthal has an article titled “WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE SEVENTH SEAL?” Here is a quote which I think will tip the scales in favor of the way I see his view once again. Note that italics are his.

The first concept of sealing was ownership. Whoever’s name was on the seal, owned what the seal was on. In the case of the 144,000, their Father’s name was written on their foreheads. They belonged to Him.

The second concept of sealing is protection. Thos who are sealed by God’s angels belong to God and are therefore protected by God. In one of the most exultant texts in the Word of God the apostle Paul triumphantly proclaimed:

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angles, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39).

Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. Therefore, they belong to God and are protected by God (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Those who are sealed in Revelation 7 belong to God. He protects what belongs to Him. That is the basis of the urgent command to the four angels to cease and desist from hurting the earth until these servants of God are sealed. Those who are sealed are to remain on the earth during the Day of the Lord wrath – but they will be protected from that wrath. They will be the first fruit of many who will come to faith in Christ to enter His millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies (Isaiah 65:17-25).


Now if you like, we can debate what the texts state. But the point you raised was about what Rosenthal states and believes.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:44 pm

Orange,

Very interesting...hadn't heard that before. I appreciate your thoroughness...I will work my way through those passages. I know that Revelation is not chronological and does some jumping back and forth, which can be confusing. If the 144,000 are sealed at the sixth seal, but were saved prior to the sixth seal, then you are saying their sealing is only physical protection from God's wrath, because salvation had already occurred, right? I guess just having read what you wrote, I can't figure out why Jesus' teaching to the disciples wouldn't have covered this. He told them to watch for the signs in the heavens to herald His return, but I think with your view that would have been misleading.

Another interesting note...I have Israeli Christian friends who live in Israel - they run a Christian publishing house. I might be wrong but I think they told me there were about 2,000 Israeli Christians in Israel. There are about 200 churches but most of the congregations are from 10 to 30 people - maybe they said 5,000 but I think it was 2,000. Anyway, imagine the revival that would have to happen to have 144,000 saved...almost seems contrary to Christ's description of the church at that time. I'm just wondering out loud, but 144,000 would be a massive revival in Israel compared to today, but then again it is rather small in comparison to the nation as a whole.

Oh, and the name...it is greek for overcomer...nikeo is the verb to overcome...nike is the noun - overcomer...it has nothing to do with that sneaker company...

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:32 am

Orange,

Rev. 14:1 says that the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion and with Him the 144,000. How can this be during the GT, when Christ's presence has not occurred yet? It seems this is a glimpse beyond the cutting off of the GT by the coming of the Lord.

You said,
The 144,000 will be the first to be sealed, but the entire nation will be saved. The repentance of Israel triggers this event known as the Day of the LORD.
So you do understand that the 144,000 is only part of the all Israel that is saved. And you are saying that before the rapture, these two groups come to salvation in Christ, that is what you mean by their repentance?
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby smackbucket on Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:06 pm

Nike,

OK, I found a few minutes. I've been busy. I admit that I'm unsure of the "after this" in Joel 2, and have wondered about it as you have. Sorry I don't have a good answer for you.

As much as I love my Orange Mailman, I disagree with him a quite a bit. I disagree that Rev 14 shows the rapture. I disagree with his view on the sealing of the 144. I disagree with his view on the trumpets and bowls overlapping. And NOW I disagree with his thoughts on the timing of Israel's repentance! I'm sure there's more, too. I just don't remember. We always agree on the majors, though, but when it comes to details there's a lot of fighting and name calling.

BUT, with that being said, he is much more of a theologian than I am, and he seems to put more time into issues that I have not investigated. He is much more knowledgeable and has more answers, I just have more right answers. :grin:
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:42 pm

He is much more knowledgeable and has more answers, I just have more right answers.


Now that right there is why I'm not ashamed to call you my brother. You can't get any more love than that.

Hey, what was that we actually agree on again? Oh yeah! PreWrath Sixth Seal Rapture.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:35 pm

Smackbucket,

You're a funny...bucket...

I do appreciate you and Orange showing up. As I said earlier, I was not aware of Orange's view - interesting but there are some holes I can't quite fill. But as you said, and I whole-heartedly agree, Orange is well studied and I do agree with him on the majors as well, so I love to hear his minors...they make me think...some make me laugh and others make me scratch my head for the depth...

I must admit I am baffled at the Joel verse being quoted in Acts...

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:57 pm

Oh, and the name...it is greek for overcomer...nikeo is the verb to overcome...nike is the noun - overcomer...it has nothing to do with that sneaker company...


Okay, so you're Nike Overcomer and your friend is Revelation 12:11 Overcomer. Together you are Overcomers. So, Nike, I'll try to answer the questions, although my views really seem to raise more questions than answers.

As far as the Olivet Discourse, you are correct that Jesus did not have the 144,000 in view. But does that mean there is a conflict with a truth later revealed in Revelation? I don't think so. You have a very valid point though. How could these be considered disciples of Jesus when Jesus had a specific outline for His disciples which included nothing of being sealed and remaining through the wrath? So how about I give you my view which theorizes a bit more with all the juicy details.

Jesus' instruction for His disciples was to flee from Jerusalem when they saw the abomination of desolation. Those who are Israelite Christians living in Jerusalem at the time will flee into the wilderness to be supernaturally protected by the LORD, see Revelation 12:14-16, Isaiah 16:1-5 with Daniel 11:41. However, many Israelites will remain in Jerusalem during the time of the great tribulation. The two witnesses will be prophesying there, Revelation 11:3. There is a portion of the temple that will not be given over to be trampled down by the Gentiles but will be set aside for orthodox Israelites, Revelation 11:1-2. So most Israelites remaining in Jerusalem are not believers at the time of the A of D, but at least the two witnesses are, maybe more. The majority of believers will have fled though.

At some point in time during the great tribulation, this group of Israelites which worship at the temple in Jerusalem will undergo a transformation. At the midpoint, as far as I can tell, most were not Christians. But now in the midst of this great tribulation, see my 3 points about Joel, this remnant here at the temple repents and turns to the LORD. Maybe some had already become Christians due to the ministry of the two witnesses. But they truly repent and turn to the God of Israel. This is what sparks the "sending of Jesus" as mentioned in Acts 3. I'm not sure if we can truly equate the national repentance with all individuals getting saved. I know I can repent day after day, but my salvation has been certain for many years.

Now here's where it gets tricky. It's almost like splitting hairs. The nation of Israel has repented. But this does not mean that every single Israelite around the world has repented. This means that the leaders in Jerusalem have repented and acknowledge the God of Israel as their only national hope. The leaders are the national representatives repenting on behalf of the nation as a whole. There are 144,000 present there which will act as the new priesthood. Based on this repentance of the remnant in Jerusalem, God begins to act. Exactly how much time transpires between their repentance and God's action, I don't know. All who are saved have the Holy Spirit, but a special pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the nation of Israel is described in Zechariah 12:10, Isaiah 44:3, Ezekiel 39:29.

First, the cosmic signs occur because God is sending Jesus. God pours out His Spirit upon all who have just repented. This is nothing new though. God has been doing this since Pentecost. But there is something special that happens here. They begin mourning because they realize that they pierced Him in crucifixion, Zechariah 12:10-13. Then comes the sealing of 144,000 of this Jerusalem remnant. Then the rapture of all believers all over the world. Then the wrath of God. Then after the wrath of God will be the second exodus of Israelites from around the world, Isaiah 11:12-16, 27:12-13, 35:8-10. These most likely were not saved until after the demonstration of God's love for Israel as displayed throughout Daniel's 70th week. In this way, all Israel will be saved. They will exist as a people before Him living from generation to generation as God's covenant people, Isaiah 59:20-21. Yet any Gentile nation will be able to do the same.

The Israelites which fled into the wilderness will most likely go up in the rapture. It is only the 144,000 which are specifically sealed to sing the new song of Psalm 96. The other Overcomer could probably point you in the direction of my post on that. They herald the Messianic Kingdom in the face of God's wrath.

I cannot shake Rosenthal's reasoning. The 144,000 are sealed before the rapture since the chronology of Revelation 6-7 is critical. The 144,000 are sealed before John sees the great multitude in heaven. Sealing denotes ownership and the parallel passage in Revelation 14:1-5 depicts them as following Christ. The timing seems to be just like Rosenthal writes. It is like the passing of a baton between two runners and both runners must be on the track at the same time. Once the baton is passed, the nation of Israel will have been provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles, so God can rapture the church. So while I believe these 144,000 are saved at the time of the sealing, I don't think we can say for certain exactly how long any of them have been believers.

Now for you, Overcomer Overcomer. I see the passage in Revelation 14:1-5 to convey a spiritual truth. I don't see Jesus as being back on earth. His presence is with them because they are believers in Him and spiritually follow Him wherever goes. Jesus will not be a literal Lamb, it is a symbol. So in some way, this passage must be symbolic. I believe the reference to Mount Zion is literal though, so maybe my view isn't quite as consistent as it could be. The verses immediately before and after this section seem to deal with the period of the great tribulation, so I think a projection into the future when Jesus is physically here on earth isn't the best solution.

So again I write that I believe that the whole key to understanding "after this" of Joel 2:28 is the repentance of the nation of Israel. Whenever an individual repents, they receive that promised Holy Spirit. Whenever a nation repents, like Israel will, that nation will receive the promised Holy Spirit. At Pentecost, a remnant of Israelites repented, so a remnant received the Holy Spirit. During the conditions of Joel 1-2:11, Israel will be prompted to repent. This will be during the time of Jacob's trouble, or during the Great Tribulaton. At that time, Israel as a nation will receive the promised Holy Spirit.

Hopefully that answers the questions. If there's anything else, please feel free to let me know.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:15 pm

Thank you Orange for explaining your understanding. Everything you say makes me think. Sometimes I have to read you two and three times for the depth. I do look forward to the day when we'll have full and complete understanding...Thanks, again.

Both you and Smackbucket make me laugh but I think Smackbucket cracks more jokes...by the way Smack...how did you come up with that name?
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby smackbucket on Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:34 am

I got tired of using my real name and decided to go a little more undercover. I thought about 30 seconds and smackbucket just popped in my head. It has absolutely no meaning to it, and I can't imagine why it popped into my head or where it came from. The name makes no sense, but I thought it had a funny "ring" to it, so I made it my own.
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:17 am

Thanks, Orange. I appreciate your time and answer. Just a quick clarification - when you talk about salvation for the nation of Israel, you say they repent and acknowledge the God of Israel as their only hope. This is a recognition of Jesus as their Messiah, correct? This is salvation through Jesus Christ, right?

So you believe there will be three general groups of Jews in the last days - believers who see the AoD and flee into the wilderness until the 6th seal rapture, 144,000 unbelieving Jews who get saved, stay in Jerusalem, are left on earth to go through the wrath of God protected and will act as a new priesthood, and the rest of the nation who receives salvation if they survive God's wrath...? (This third group I am not sure I've got right.)

I agree with you that God will always have a remnant here on earth. It was my understanding that the sealing of the 144,000 guaranteed that. I still can't get my arms around the fact that the 144,000 would not be part of the church, but a separate entity. If their salvation came after the 6th seal (their salvation, not their sealing) then I get it...it's kind of like Israel in Egypt. They were protected through the plagues but not saved until after the final plague fell...I don't know...maybe I am grasping here.

I will definitely have to do more study. But I do appreciate your time, as I said earlier.

Thanks,

nike

P.S. I heard somewhere you speak pig latin...
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:38 am

Macksay, it-ay oesday avehay a-ay unnyfay ingray otay it-ay. (If you don't understand me, ask Orange...)
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:59 am

Orange,

I've spent the morning digging into Joel 2. I think at verse 2 we actually move into the day of the Lord. We are no longer prior to, which would be during the GT. Verse 11 Joel says, "The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome." So at verse 12, if Israel is in the DOTL, and God is calling them to "return to Me", not all Israel has repented. At verse 17, the priests are called to make intercession for the people, they ask God to "Spare Thy people..." I would take this to be from the Lord's wrath during the DOTL. God positively answers in verse 18. I know Ron Wallace views the army in Joel 2 as the army of the 6th trumpet...so he too would see this being during the day of the LORD. He compares this passage with the northern army described in Ez. 38, 39. Verse 26,27 reads, "Then My people will never be put to shame...Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the LORD your God and there is no other." What confuses me is that at verse 28 we have the "after this...I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind..." and then in v. 30 we have the signs prior to the DOTL. So on the one hand it looks like we go from before the DOTL- 2:1, to during - 2:2-11, the call to repent during the DOTL-2:12-17, and then a time after - 2:18-27. So it seems that at verse 28 the "after this" would be after the DOTL...but then at v. 30,31 we have the signs prior to the DOTL. And verse 32, "Whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; For on Mt. Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape...even among the survivors whom the LORD calls." Have we moved back again during the DOTL? Is this deliverance from God's wrath, during the DOTL? Is this the all Israel that is saved?

More questions and just what has been working its way through my head this morning...
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:41 am

You mention Ez. 39:29 Orange and the outpouring of God's Spirit. I do see that passage in the context of the end of Ds 70th week. I've always thought vv. 17-20 had Armageddon written all over it. Perhaps the priests in Joel 2 are the 144,000?
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:51 pm

Nike-

Just a quick clarification - when you talk about salvation for the nation of Israel, you say they repent and acknowledge the God of Israel as their only hope. This is a recognition of Jesus as their Messiah, correct? This is salvation through Jesus Christ, right?


There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Messiah Jesus is the God of Israel. How much knowledge will they have as they call on the God of Israel? I'm not sure. One possibility is that Israel calls on the God of Israel to save them, and He does. Then they find out in a face to face encounter that the God of Israel is Jesus Christ, Zechariah 12:10. That's why they weep so bitterly.

Some passages which speak of Israel's repentance seem to point to calling on the same God that delivered them from the Egyptians, Isaiah 51:9-11. But another possibility is that since the church (Gentiles) provokes Israel to jealousy through the great tribulation, then Israel understands full well who these Christians are dying for. They are dying in the name of Jesus, the God of Israel. Most of the time I believe that they understand that Jesus is the God of Israel at the time of their repentance. But I do understand if someone holds a slightly different view.

So you believe there will be three general groups of Jews in the last days - believers who see the AoD and flee into the wilderness until the 6th seal rapture, 144,000 unbelieving Jews who get saved, stay in Jerusalem, are left on earth to go through the wrath of God protected and will act as a new priesthood, and the rest of the nation who receives salvation if they survive God's wrath...? (This third group I am not sure I've got right.)


Many Israelites will not make it through to the end of Daniel's 70th week. Zechariah 13:8-9 and Amos 9:7-10 show that sinners of the nation of Israel will suffer God's judgement, yet He will preserve a believing remnant. For the second exodus to occur, there must be Israelites still scattered throughout the world after the Day of the LORD. I'm not sure if I've got the third group right either.

I still can't get my arms around the fact that the 144,000 would not be part of the church, but a separate entity.


I suppose it depends on your definition of the church. Do you distinguish between Israel and the church? If so, how? When did the church begin? When will it end? Was Mary the mother of Jesus a part of Israel or the church? What's your favorite color? Why will the twelve apostles sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Why did James write to the twelve tribes instead of the church? Is the new covenant really with the nation of Israel?

I believe most people would struggle with clear concise answers to these questions if they had to answer with only scripture. Dispensationalism gave us two things which I think are detrimental to our theology. #1- A Pre-Trib Rapture. #2- A faulty understanding of the relationship between Israel and the church.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:49 pm

Hey Overcomer-

I’ll admit that when it come to Joel 2 that I have a couple of preconceived ideas. One of them is the definition of the time of Jacob’s trouble which I view as contemporary with the great tribulation. The one passage in the Bible which uses the phrase “the time of Jacob’s trouble” gives us a base definition for the term.

4 Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. 5 "For thus says the Lord: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.
10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the Lord, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with you,' says the Lord, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'


I believe that part way through this time of trouble that deliverance comes to the nation of Israel. Does that sound familiar? Jacob is delivered OUT OF the time of trouble. It sounds just like the great tribulation. It gets cut short for the sake of the elect.

That seems to be what God does for the nation of Israel in Joel 2. There is an advancing army. Israel is prompted to repent, perhaps by the two witnesses at the temple. They declare a fast for the entire nation [represented at Jerusalem] even if they are still nursing. God has determined to deliver them out from this time of trouble. Here the Day of the LORD is drawing near, Joel 2:1.

Now on to your observation about Joel 2:10-11. Here I believe it is an overview. This army is approaching as the Day of the LORD is about to break forth. God is warning them that this day of the LORD is awesome and who can really endure it. So then beginning in verse 12 is the prompting of repentance. So I view 2:10-11 as kind of a flash forward into what they could be experiencing if they don’t repent before the army finally arrives in Jerusalem.

Then we have the passage in Joel 2:28-32 which seems to be one of the centerpieces of our PreWrath position. The nation of Israel will receive the promised Holy Spirit here at this certain point in time. The pivot point seems to be just as the Day of the LORD is about to break forth. So Israel must have repented otherwise how could God pour out His Spirit upon them. Anyone who calls upon the name of the LORD at that time will be saved and delivered. Upon Mount Zion will be deliverance.

Then in chapter 3, it is also an overview. This is the battle of Armageddon only it is referred to as the valley of decision. Notice how God is enticing these nations to come up against Him only to meet their doom. “Come on you weakling nations and believe you are actually strong.” They march against the LORD Himself and He responds by roaring from Zion. When the cosmic signs are described in 3:14, it is like a summary. So we’ve read about the cosmic signs three times in the book of Joel each in a different context.

So if we have somewhat of a progression with this army which marches against Jerusalem, it might be like this. The army is marching against Jerusalem, Joel 2:1-11, but the Israelites repent, Joel 2:12-17. (I agree that perhaps those priests are the 144,000). When Israel repents, then God begins to act on their behalf. Once God begins to act, He removes the army personally, Joel 2:20. When God begins to personally interact as the judge over these nations, it will begin the period in time known as the Day of the LORD. The valley of decision will be a display of God’s strength and power during the Day of the LORD. Will the army that was removed also be drawn to Armageddon (the Valley of Decision)? I’m not sure.

Now for a quiz. I’ll list some events and you tell me which category that you think they would fall in. Either these events occur during the great tribulation (which is also the time of Jacob’s trouble) or they occur during the Day of the LORD and His wrath. BTW, there’s no right or wrong here. Some of these I don’t honestly know where I would put them. I’m just trying to get you and me to think.

Persecution of saints
God’s judgement upon the nations
Israel in distress
An army marching against Jerusalem
Nations being gathered against the LORD
Israel entering into the new covenant as a nation
Famine
The winepress of God’s wrath
The cosmic signs
The LORD roars from Zion
The Spirit is poured out upon Israel
The sacrifices at the temple are put to a stop

Hopefully the same two are giving you as much trouble as they are giving me. You raise a good point about the approaching army perhaps being a part of the Day of the LORD. For now, my view is that Joel 2:10-11 is anticipatory.

As far as Ezekiel 39:29, that’s a summary statement. God acts on Israel’s behalf at Armageddon, which is described in Ezekiel 39:17-20. But does Israel receive the promised Holy Spirit after that? I don’t believe so. God shows His love for Israel by the previous demonstration. Then the determining point is that from the time that God pours out His Spirit upon them, from that point on He will never again hide His face from them. Exactly when God pours out His Spirit upon them is not directly stated.

Good night.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:50 pm

I’m just trying to get you and me to think.
Someone else I know has said this to me...hmm

Ok, I'll give it a try...

Persecution of saints - GT
God’s judgement upon the nations - DOTL
Israel in distress - GT & DOTL
An army marching against Jerusalem - ? (Means I don't know)
Nations being gathered against the LORD - DOTL
Israel entering into the new covenant as a nation - ? (Means I don't know...I've always had trouble understanding the convenants...I'm not afraid to admit it!)
Famine - GT
The winepress of God’s wrath - DOTL
The cosmic signs - GT
The LORD roars from Zion - DOTL
The Spirit is poured out upon Israel - towards end DOTL or after (I think this is where you say GT...)
The sacrifices at the temple are put to a stop - Just prior to GT

So how'd I do?

Then we have the passage in Joel 2:28-32 which seems to be one of the centerpieces of our PreWrath position. The nation of Israel will receive the promised Holy Spirit here at this certain point in time.


I have to admit Orange that this is where I'm just not sure I can agree with you...You say they receive the Holy Spirit prior to the DOTL, right, as a nation? You mean the believing remnant, right...The 144,000 plus the rest?

I spent a good part of the afternoon reading and rereading Joel. I really want to understand. You are way beyond me but I appreciate the time you are taking with me...
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:26 am

So I've been up since 5 with this on my mind! I do have more questions for you Orange. Romans 11:25-27 - The fullness of the Gentiles...this seems to indicate when the salvation of Israel occurs. When do you view the fullness of the Gentiles as having come in? Repentance and salvation go hand in hand right? Doesn't the fullness of the Gentiles come in at the close of the Week?
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:25 am

Joel 2:32 I think is a key verse...

"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls."

The Lord's call seems to come after they've survived something. What is it they have survived? The GT or the DOTL?
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:13 am

Joel 2:28- a timing question

Romans 9:28...For He will finish The Work,
and cut it short in righteousness:
Because a Short Work will the Lord Make upon the Earth...

Haggai 2:6...For thus saith the Lord of Hosts;
Yet Once, it is a little while, and I will shake the Heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

7...And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come:
and I will fill this House with Glory, saith the Lord of Hosts...

9...The Glory of this Latter House shall be Greater than of the former, saith the Lord of Hosts:
and in this place will give peace, saith the Lord of Hosts...


Zech 13:8....And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein...

9...And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will Refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:

They shall call on My Name, and I will hear them:
I will say, it is my People:
and they shall say, The Lord is My God...

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:56 pm

Hey Overcomer-

I hope you can see how overly fascinated we are with the timing of the rapture as opposed to other end times events, in particular the repentance of Israel. We as PreWrathers have the superior position with Joel 2:28-32 as one of the cornerstones, but in this same passage we also have the repentance of Israel and we are struggling with how to place this whole issue. The view that I take seems solid to me because it jives with Peter's requotation of it in Acts 2 in substituting the phrase "in the last days" for "afterward". If we view the "after" as after the repentance of Israel, it makes complete sense to see that the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus began a period in time known as the last days, Hebrews 1:1-2. When only a remnant repented, they received the promised Holy Spirit without the nation of Israel entering Daniel's 70th week and then the great tribulation. Joel did not foresee that Israelites could repent individually and receive the promised Holy Spirit apart from these end time events such as the cosmic signs, the valley of decision, and the LORD roaring from Zion. But there is nothing in Joel to prevent this either.

Mrs. B quoted a scripture from Zechariah which states that the nation of Israel will say "The LORD is my God" as God says "They are my people". I'd like to do a study sometime because I believe this wording is used in several other prophets, Hosea comes to mind. This would signify the repentance of Israel. They have acknowledged that the LORD (Yahweh) is their God. God has acknowledged them as His people. They are now in a covenant relationship. Of course this can't happen apart from the Holy Spirit.

I really don't know how you did on the test. I'll try to get a real teacher over here to grade it for you. The fulness of the Gentiles, in my view, occurs at the rapture. It is Gentiles within the church which provokes Israel to jealousy. The church is the nation that isn't really a nation as Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 32:21 which provokes Israel to jealousy. Just for a little study, read Deuteronomy 32 with the theme of the repentance of Israel in mind. Remember that this is just as they are poised to take the promised land. Deuteronomy 32 must be a foundation for all the rest of our end times theology. Leviticus 26 is before that even, so it must be foundational for Deuteronomy 32.

So anyway, sorry for the tangent, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, that's the fulness of Gentile participation within spiritual Israel. Israel as a nation will be provoked to jealousy. So now God can give life to the dead, Romans 11:15 through the resurrection and then rapture the church. However, Israel must remain as a nation before the LORD forever, Romans 11:25-27 with Isaiah 59:20-21. So how can God take all believing Israelites out of the world at one time? I suppose He could, He can do as He pleases.

This whole thing is like one carefully orchestrated story. The rapture will not occur until the fulness of the Gentiles occurs. God will save every single Gentile that will be called by His name before He returns, Amos 9:11-12. But this will not occur until Israel is provoked to jealousy. Israel will not repent until they are provoked to jealousy. God will not defend Israel during Daniel's 70th week until they repent and acknowledge Him as their God. It's like one huge puzzle and we must remember that Israel is destined to be the centerpiece of the Messianic Kingdom.

I think you hinted at something when you mentioned the 144,000 so I'll elaborate just a bit. Remember on Pentecost who received the Holy Spirit first? Only those who were gathered in the upper room received the Holy Spirit. There were other disciples of Jesus scattered through Galilee and such. There were many who had repented at the baptism of John. Yet these did not receive the Holy Spirit. There is this transitional period whereby Peter and the others make known that it is only through the name of Jesus that one can receive the promised Holy Spirit. Peter and John must travel to Samaria before the Holy Spirit will be poured out upon them. Then Peter must go to Cornelius before the Holy Spirit will be poured out upon the Gentiles. Is there an end times parallel? Perhaps. If the Holy Spirit is only poured out upon the 144,000 at first, then later others will receive the pouring out, this would explain why only the 144,000 can learn the song in Revelation 14:3.

There are a lot of things that I don't know. So if you think I am contradicting something, go ahead and speak up. I won't mind. I've been wrong before. The same Holy Spirit that teaches me is teaching you as well. I'm sure I'll learn something from you before this thread is over.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:07 pm

Orange,

Are you sure you're not a Bible prof at Cornerstone? I don't know if I buy this whole mailman thing anymore...

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:23 pm

nike wrote:Orange,

Are you sure you're not a Bible prof at Cornerstone? I don't know if I buy this whole mailman thing anymore...


:lol:

(pssst...don't give him any ideas, nike, we want him here.....) :wink:
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Birdwatcher on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:48 pm

Hello to my old and new friends. Yes, I've finally joined the FP board.

There are many ideas in this thread that I'd like to respond to, but it's getting late and I'm an early riser, so let's just hit the highlights for now.

First, can some people who love the Lord and are truly saved be left behind when the Church is raptured? Yes. It's quite evident that the Two Witnesses love and serve God, yet they are not taken up with the Church at the Rapture. Rather, they are left behind to finish their mission. The same might be the case with the 144,000 Jewish men who are the Firstfruits of Israel. They might already be saved and yet be left behind to fulfill their special mission.

Joel 2:28,29 says: "It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

This passage is used to support increased visions amongst believers as we draw near to the last days. It has been used here at FP recently and it has brought a few contextual questions to mind. I know some of us come from different perspectives as to the literal or symbolic fulfillment of scripture, and I don't mean to offend, but I am looking for some literal help here.


You've got it. Literal as the day is long.

The context of Joel is the Day of the Lord. Immediately after these two verses the signs in the heavens are described and the "great and awesome day of the Lord" is mentioned. Previous to these verses you see the desolation of Israel as well as the mention of the DOTL (2:1-11) and you see the salvation and restoration of Israel (2:18-27). Then you come to these verses.

My questions are as follows - it says, "It will come about AFTER THIS" - after what? The desolation and the restoration of Israel?

Yes, exactly. The dreams and visions (and the blood, fire, and columns of smoke) will occur during the Millennium, in my view.

The phrase, "It will come about after this" bothered me, too, for a long time. My little PreWrath study group kept coming back to it. The only interpretation that ended up making sense to me is that "after this" means "after the destruction of the Northern Army during the DOTL and the restoration of Israel that starts during the DOTL and continues during the Millennium."

But then it goes right into the DOTL and the restoration is at the end of the DOTL. Is it proper to use these verses to validate current visions or is this a prophecy for Israel upon its restoration?


The 6th Seal cosmic signs occur just before the DOTL begins, of course. That they are mentioned here, abruptly, just after a passage about the Millennial Kingdom seems to me to indicate that there's a break in thought. The Day of the Lord is the overall topic of Joel, so it's not totally abrupt, but it does make interpretation a challenge.

The verses that follow say "in those days and at that time" there will be nations that gather against Jerusalem as the DOTL is about to begin. So we clearly are in the end-of-GT timeframe and start-of-DOTL timeframe in Joel 3:1-16. My view is that we also are in that timeframe for Joel 2:31-32 (but not Joel 2:28-30).

I am looking for a little clarification here from someone who has studied this...I am hoping Orange and Smackbucket show up because I think this is right up their alley, but anyone feel free to jump in!


I've studied Joel, and I'm jumping in. Is there a "diving in" smiley around here somewhere?

To be perfectly transparent, at one time I said, "I understand Joel" -- and immediately the Lord made it clear that I still had a lot of studying to do. So it's entirely possible I'm off somewhere in these views.
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:59 pm

:wavewelcome: to the board, Birdwatcher! Happy to have you with us!
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Birdwatcher on Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:03 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote::wavewelcome: to the board, Birdwatcher! Happy to have you with us!


Thanks, Abiding! Good to be here. Hope I can find the time to keep up my end of this one discussion at least, now that my work life is almost back to normal.
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:06 pm

Well Orange, I said that I thought Joel 2:32 was a key verse. Those who call upon the LORD and whom the LORD calls survive something.

I did some further digging and I came across Isaiah 63:1-4:

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, this One who is majestic in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength?....Why is your apparel red....I have trodden the wine trough alone...I also trod them in My anger, and trampled them in My wrath...For the day of vengeance was in My heart (DOTL), and My year of redemption (for Israel) has come."

The text says that He is going forth because "My year of redemption has come." I see this speaking of the salvation of Israel, which would come not at the end of the GT but at the end of the Week.

What do you think Professor?
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:28 am

Thank you for your kindness, but actually Birdwatcher is the official teacher here at my request. If we are nice, perhaps Birdwatcher will grade Overcomer's test.

Hey Birdwatcher, how about closing your next post with your classic line so Smackbucket knows who you are.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:52 am

Welcome, Birdwatcher,

Thank you for jumping in...a couple of questions for you - do you think the visions and dreams at the end of the Millennium are to be a witness to unbelievers before the final judgment? And what is your understanding of the quote of this verse in Acts 2? Is this a near/far prophecy kind of thing? And the kicker...do you see the dreams and visions as a gift to the "church age" or was that something that was effective at Pentecost and will return at the end of the MIllennium?

Again, thanks for posting...you come highly recommended...

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Birdwatcher on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:15 am

revelation12eleven wrote:Well Orange, I said that I thought Joel 2:32 was a key verse. Those who call upon the LORD and whom the LORD calls survive something.


As you've noted, rev12:11 (3 overcomers in one thread? Wow!), there are survivors on Mount Zion, and they escape. While it's possible that escape from the Bowls (via the new valley that leads to Azel) is in view, it seems more likely that escape via Rapture is in view. The context of Joel 2:31-16 is the end of the GT and the start of the DOTL. Some of the Jews and others in Jerusalem will be believers, and they will escape via Rapture just before the DOTL begins.

revelation12eleven wrote: "Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, this One who is majestic in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength?....Why is your apparel red....I have trodden the wine trough alone...I also trod them in My anger, and trampled them in My wrath...For the day of vengeance was in My heart (DOTL), and My year of redemption (for Israel) has come."


The treading of the Great Winepress occurs at the start of the DOTL. As RVK recognized, the gathering of the armies against Jerusalem happens before the DOTL starts, according to Joel 3:14 --

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
The sun and moon grow dark
And the stars lose their brightness (Joel 3:14-15, NASU)

RVK called this the Jehoshaphat Campaign. I say it's the same as the Great Winepress, which is also to be equated with the 1st Trumpet. Unlike RVK, I place the Lord's rescue of Jerusalem from the invaders after the DOTL starts, not before. But the armies surround the city before, filling the valley.

revelation12eleven wrote:The text says that He is going forth because "My year of redemption has come." I see this speaking of the salvation of Israel, which would come not at the end of the GT but at the end of the Week.


Yes, the salvation of Israel occurs during the DOTL. She is completely saved by the end of the Seventieth Week. The "year of redemption," in my view, speaks of ongoing conversions. Israel begins to be saved at the start of the Trumpet judgments and is completely saved at the end of the Trumpet judgments. The strong angel in Rev. 10 says that just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the Mystery of God is finished.

Then in Rev. 11, just before the 7th Trumpet sounds, the Two Witnesses are raised, there's a great earthquake, and those in the vicinity give glory to God. This is not the Earth Dwellers giving glory to God, but redeemed Israel giving glory to God. At that point, the 7th Trumpet sounds, the kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Messiah, and the Ark appears in the Temple. The 42 Months of the AC's authority are up, and the Bowl Judgments begin.

Oh, okay, Orange, here goes -- but Smackbucket likes to smack Mo down, and Mo doesn't like to be smacked!

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Birdwatcher on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:46 am

nike wrote:Welcome, Birdwatcher,

Thank you for jumping in...


Thanks, Nike!

nike wrote:a couple of questions for you - do you think the visions and dreams at the end of the Millennium are to be a witness to unbelievers before the final judgment?


Hmmm. I'd not seen the Millennial outpouring of the Spirit and the attendant dreams and visions that way up till now. But it's a good suggestion. I just sort of figured they were a part of the overall time of abundance and blessing. An abundance of the Lord -- of knowledge of His Word, of His presence, and of His Holy Spirit -- are the best and most important of the Millennial blessings.

nike wrote:And what is your understanding of the quote of this verse in Acts 2? Is this a near/far prophecy kind of thing?


You know, it strikes me as funny the way some scholars (and others) say, "The quotation of Joel by Peter MUST be a fulfillment of the prophecy." While other scholars are just as adamant in stating, "The quotation of Joel by Peter CANNOT AT ALL be a fulfillment of the prophecy."

I'm in the "cannot be seen as the ultimate fulfillment" camp. Peter didn't say, "This prophecy has been fulfilled." And, as someone pointed out earlier, the cosmic signs mentioned in Joel didn't happen when the Lord Yeshua died and was raised, or when Pentecost arrived that year. They will happen at the 6th Seal. The "sign" gift that happened at Pentecost wasn't even one of the blessings mentioned in the Joel passage. There weren't any dreams or visions, and it there was prophecy it's not mentioned as such in Acts.

Maybe it's a near/far thing, as you suggest. Or maybe Peter just meant, "This is the same Holy Spirit causing this strange phenomenon as the Spirit that Joel describes, the Spirit who will be poured out, resulting in prophecies, dreams, and visions for all."

nike wrote:And the kicker...do you see the dreams and visions as a gift to the "church age" or was that something that was effective at Pentecost and will return at the end of the MIllennium?


This is a somewhat sore point with me, as just last year my congregation lost some good and dear people, including the leaders of our Men's Ministry and our Women's Ministry over this very question. Though our pastors hadn't made a secret of their views, those who left were highly offended when they discovered that we think the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased but are for today.

We don't have any speaking in tongues in our services, and I don't know that we ever will. But if the Lord wants to bless us with a particular manifestation of His Spirit, we're open to it. We desire His blessing, and we seek to understand His word correctly.

My senior pastor just finished a series on the Olivet Discourse. In which he revealed to all that he is now PreWrath in his views. How cool is that? (Some of us who had discussed the End Times with him already knew he shared our views.)

To return to your question, I do think gifts are for today. But I do not see a greater outpouring of God's Spirit as we approach (or move through) Daniel's Seventieth Week. Rather, I see many false prophets and much deception affecting the Church as well as the world.

nike wrote:Again, thanks for posting...you come highly recommended...


The Orange Mailman is just entirely too nice.

For the Kingdom,

-Mo
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:33 am

Hi Birdwatcher,

I haven't been graded on a test in nearly 29 years! There aren't three Overcomers here, just two, well, I trust EVERYONE here will be overcomers eventually if we end up being that generation to enter the Week, but Orange refers to me as Overcomer because that is the title of my blog. By the way, if you want to see the cutest grandbaby ever born, go to my blog...http://revelation12eleven.blogspot.com My attention as of late has been divided between this discussion and Daniel...

Since the 144 are called the first fruits, I do see more than the 144 as the remnant of all Israel that is saved. There must be "second fruits" as well. What is your view as to when the 144 are saved? As you say, I do understand that salvation comes to some at the end of the Week.

I take it you enjoy watching birds??? :grin:
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:47 am

Thanks again...you are quick on the reply!

Possibly a dumb question, but why when visions and dreams are mentioned do we automatically associate that with tongues? Is it because in Acts they were speaking with tongues and then this prophecy was mentioned? Do the Joel verses imply tongues or just the filling of the Holy Spirit? What do you think?

By the way, I think it's way cool that your pastor is open about his understanding of the rapture timing issue. It may stir the pot a bit at church initially, but as he has the freedom point out scriptural support for this in his weekly sermons (I am amazed at how many passages point to this), the congregation will begin to see and understand as well! Years ago, I had a pastor who held to prewrath and once he got it, he saw it everywhere! It was so fun to sit under his enthusiasm!

Also, our church is in the process of changing our doctrinal statement from a cessationist position to more of a position which you described. Without stirring the pot here, we don't believe that tongues have ceased but we also don't believe that the way they are used today are necessarily biblical - that there are specific requirements that validate that the use of tongues are of God...just saying I understand where you're coming from...

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby revelation12eleven on Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:36 am

Nike, I don't think it's a dumb question at all...I was wondering the very same thing...
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:01 pm

Hey Overcomer-

I think Joel 2:32 is a key verse as well. But before I answer the question, let me state a principle that I believe is at work in these OT prophecies. The prophets did not see things in time linear form as we are accustomed to communicating in. We tend to think of everything chronologically. What will happen first? Then what will happen immediately after that? How will it come to a conclusion?

Instead, the prophets foretold of events in a cause and effect type way. Because God is holy, He will punish sin. Because mankind is wicked, God will judge the earth. In the book of Joel we have this same type of foretelling. Because an army is advancing against the nation of Israel, Israel calls out to God for protection. Because the nation of Israel repents and calls out to God, God supernaturally protects His people. Because God is protecting His people, He will supernaturally summon the nations and slaughter them in the valley of decision. There is a general chronological progression that we can get out of this, but Joel is not necessarily saying, first this, then this, then that, etc.

So what I get out of the verse is a basic cause and effect principle. Because God is acting on behalf of His people, there will be deliverance upon Mount Zion for all who escape or survive. The context would say that this deliverance will come during the Day of the LORD when God is breaking into the affairs of mankind. So the survivors would be those who have survived the Great Tribulation, and will also survive the Day of the LORD by God's supernatural protection because there is deliverance for those upon Mount Zion. Surely the 144,000 will be on Mount Zion.

Now as far as Isaiah 63, I'm not prepared to take this thread over there. Isaiah is such a deep book. It surely is a picture of Christ and it is one of the winepress passages, so I'm sure that Birdwatcher is glad you mentioned it. But I'll just hold off on derailing the thread for now.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:16 pm

Hello all,

I'll just say my little piece and then let it be since I've debated this topic recently. But I am always astonished when I hear believers debating the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the prophecied dreams, visions, and prophecies. When Peter quoted Joel in Acts, he would know that dreams and visions were were a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. He had a vision himself. Cornelius had a vision. Peter saw an angel who opened the door of prison for him. Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia asking for help. Theophilus records that the men of Galilee saw Jesus taken up to heaven and two angels spoke with them.

And even before Pentecost, Zacharias spoke with an angel; an angel appeared to and spoke with Mary, the mother of Jesus; Joseph had a dream about taking Mary as his wife; the magi were warned in a dream not to return to Herod.

Dreams, visions, prophecies, healing, and miracles are abounding in scripture. Are these miraculous occurances different than the miracle of being born again?

Forgive my confusion on this issue, but I truly don't understand what support some find for believing these supernatural occurances have ceased or are yet future.
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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby nike on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:20 pm

Abiding,

My issue with dreams and visions are the fact that some people think they are receiving new revelation from God with their dreams and visions. Many are either contrary to scripture (which immediately disqualifies them) or so strange that it sounds more like imagination overload than a vision from God. I have been on several prophecy sites where people share their dreams and they are convinced that something specific will happen in the near future, the date passes and no one ever mentions the dream again. Shouldn't their be some sort of standard for dreams and visions - if they are truly prophecies from God, shouldn't they be held to the same standards that the OT prophets were held to? But with the claim of being moved by the Spirit, there are dreams and visions being shared all over the place with a claim they are of God and I just don't get it.

If this gift of the Spirit is given for the edification of the church, shouldn't there be some sort of standard? The visions you mentioned had literal fulfillments. Prophets were stoned for faulty prophecies. I think we are awfully lax on our standards of God-given gifts when we give platform to every strange dream someone has with no interpretation or literal fulfillment to verify the source.

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Re: Joel 2:28- a timing question

Postby Birdwatcher on Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:21 pm

revelation12eleven wrote:I haven't been graded on a test in nearly 29 years!


Then you're clearly overdue. :grin:

revelation12eleven wrote:There aren't three Overcomers here, just two, well, I trust EVERYONE here will be overcomers eventually if we end up being that generation to enter the Week,


Yes and amen!

revelation12eleven wrote:but Orange refers to me as Overcomer because that is the title of my blog.


I see. In my quick scan of messages, I thought that Overcomer and revelation12eleven were two separate posters, with nike being the third of the "overcoming trio."

revelation12eleven wrote:By the way, if you want to see the cutest grandbaby ever born, go to my blog...http://revelation12eleven.blogspot.com My attention as of late has been divided between this discussion and Daniel...


Oh, that Daniel! I originally read your comment as referring to the OT book of Daniel. Yep, he's cute.

revelation12eleven wrote:Since the 144 are called the first fruits, I do see more than the 144 as the remnant of all Israel that is saved. There must be "second fruits" as well. What is your view as to when the 144 are saved?


I'm inclined to believe that they are already saved before they get sealed. But if I were filming it as a movie, I'd have them all mysteriously drawn to the Temple Mount (or somewhere) and getting sealed by the angels there, simultaneously realizing that Jesus really is the Messiah. Just as they have His name emblazoned on their foreheads. Wouldn't that be something to explain to your Orthodox or Hassidic parents back home, why you now have "Yeshua" on your face?

revelation12eleven wrote:I take it you enjoy watching birds???


I married into birding. It's a fun hobby as long as we get out walking before it gets too hot.

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