Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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nike wrote:My questions are as follows - it says, "It will come about AFTER THIS" - after what?
Is it proper to use these verses to validate current visions....
I am looking for a little clarification here from someone who has studied this...I am hoping Orange and Smackbucket show up because I think this is right up their alley
Any questions?
The Orange Mailman wrote:Hey Overcomer-
I agree with Rosenthal on the point that the sealing actually precedes the rapture. The sealing occurs to preserve a remnant of believing Israelites through the time of God's wrath. They are specifically ordained by God to remain here. Although they are believers, God has a designation for them here on earth. I don't ascribe to what is popularly termed a partial rapture, but I do believe that these 144,000 will remain behind even though they are believers. Here's a quote from Rosenthal.
"The symmetry, balance, and timing of Revelation 7 should not be
missed. With chapter 8, the Day of the Lord will begin. Therefore,
in chapter 7 the church is raptured. But immediately prior to the
Rapture of the church, the 144,000 Jews are sealed. It is almost
like a baton being passed between runners. The 144,000 must be
sealed for protection to go through the Day of the Lord before the
church can be caught up to the throne in heaven. God will not leave
Himself without a people on the earth."
Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
What is "the times of refreshing"? Peter says repent so the times of refreshing may come... If it is the millennial kingdom, their repentance could occur then after the rapture, couldn't it? The sending of Jesus in that passage could be when He actually comes down to Mt. Zion? Verse 21 says "whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things"...at the rapture He is still in the heavens so His sending in this verse might refer to His coming forth from Mt. Zion?
So you do understand that the 144,000 is only part of the all Israel that is saved. And you are saying that before the rapture, these two groups come to salvation in Christ, that is what you mean by their repentance?The 144,000 will be the first to be sealed, but the entire nation will be saved. The repentance of Israel triggers this event known as the Day of the LORD.
He is much more knowledgeable and has more answers, I just have more right answers.
Oh, and the name...it is greek for overcomer...nikeo is the verb to overcome...nike is the noun - overcomer...it has nothing to do with that sneaker company...
Just a quick clarification - when you talk about salvation for the nation of Israel, you say they repent and acknowledge the God of Israel as their only hope. This is a recognition of Jesus as their Messiah, correct? This is salvation through Jesus Christ, right?
So you believe there will be three general groups of Jews in the last days - believers who see the AoD and flee into the wilderness until the 6th seal rapture, 144,000 unbelieving Jews who get saved, stay in Jerusalem, are left on earth to go through the wrath of God protected and will act as a new priesthood, and the rest of the nation who receives salvation if they survive God's wrath...? (This third group I am not sure I've got right.)
I still can't get my arms around the fact that the 144,000 would not be part of the church, but a separate entity.
Someone else I know has said this to me...hmmI’m just trying to get you and me to think.
Then we have the passage in Joel 2:28-32 which seems to be one of the centerpieces of our PreWrath position. The nation of Israel will receive the promised Holy Spirit here at this certain point in time.
nike wrote:Orange,
Are you sure you're not a Bible prof at Cornerstone? I don't know if I buy this whole mailman thing anymore...
Joel 2:28,29 says: "It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."
This passage is used to support increased visions amongst believers as we draw near to the last days. It has been used here at FP recently and it has brought a few contextual questions to mind. I know some of us come from different perspectives as to the literal or symbolic fulfillment of scripture, and I don't mean to offend, but I am looking for some literal help here.
The context of Joel is the Day of the Lord. Immediately after these two verses the signs in the heavens are described and the "great and awesome day of the Lord" is mentioned. Previous to these verses you see the desolation of Israel as well as the mention of the DOTL (2:1-11) and you see the salvation and restoration of Israel (2:18-27). Then you come to these verses.
My questions are as follows - it says, "It will come about AFTER THIS" - after what? The desolation and the restoration of Israel?
But then it goes right into the DOTL and the restoration is at the end of the DOTL. Is it proper to use these verses to validate current visions or is this a prophecy for Israel upon its restoration?
I am looking for a little clarification here from someone who has studied this...I am hoping Orange and Smackbucket show up because I think this is right up their alley, but anyone feel free to jump in!
Abiding in His Word wrote::wavewelcome: to the board, Birdwatcher! Happy to have you with us!
revelation12eleven wrote:Well Orange, I said that I thought Joel 2:32 was a key verse. Those who call upon the LORD and whom the LORD calls survive something.
revelation12eleven wrote: "Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, this One who is majestic in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength?....Why is your apparel red....I have trodden the wine trough alone...I also trod them in My anger, and trampled them in My wrath...For the day of vengeance was in My heart (DOTL), and My year of redemption (for Israel) has come."
revelation12eleven wrote:The text says that He is going forth because "My year of redemption has come." I see this speaking of the salvation of Israel, which would come not at the end of the GT but at the end of the Week.
nike wrote:Welcome, Birdwatcher,
Thank you for jumping in...
nike wrote:a couple of questions for you - do you think the visions and dreams at the end of the Millennium are to be a witness to unbelievers before the final judgment?
nike wrote:And what is your understanding of the quote of this verse in Acts 2? Is this a near/far prophecy kind of thing?
nike wrote:And the kicker...do you see the dreams and visions as a gift to the "church age" or was that something that was effective at Pentecost and will return at the end of the MIllennium?
nike wrote:Again, thanks for posting...you come highly recommended...
revelation12eleven wrote:I haven't been graded on a test in nearly 29 years!
revelation12eleven wrote:There aren't three Overcomers here, just two, well, I trust EVERYONE here will be overcomers eventually if we end up being that generation to enter the Week,
revelation12eleven wrote:but Orange refers to me as Overcomer because that is the title of my blog.
revelation12eleven wrote:By the way, if you want to see the cutest grandbaby ever born, go to my blog...http://revelation12eleven.blogspot.com My attention as of late has been divided between this discussion and Daniel...
revelation12eleven wrote:Since the 144 are called the first fruits, I do see more than the 144 as the remnant of all Israel that is saved. There must be "second fruits" as well. What is your view as to when the 144 are saved?
revelation12eleven wrote:I take it you enjoy watching birds???
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