The AntiChrists Covenant

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 8:05 am

NIke also asked:

And what is the abomination of desolation which Daniel as well as Jesus and Paul (man of lawlessness) point to, according to your view?


The abomination of desolation in scripture was when Jerusalem was destroyed by enemies and the people of Jerusalem were taken into captivity or killed. That is also what the abomination of desolation will be in the future. There is no scripture to re-define the abomination of desolation to be anything else. In fact, there is additional scripture that shows that the abomination of desolation is when "Jerusalem is surrounded by armies" and the people should flee Judea.

Matthew 24:16
"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14
"But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-22
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Matthew and Mark, wrote to Jews who understood that the most abominable thing was when Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were taken into captivity and killed. Thus, they both wrote, "let the reader understand" when they describe the abomination of Jerusalem being taken.
When Luke, a gentile, writes to non-Jews, he spells it out clearly: "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" is the "abomination of desolation" that will signal the end. There will be wars, and rumors of wars, but when Jerusalem is sourrounded, flee, for that is the sign of the end.

Jesus said to look at what Daniel said about the abomination of desolation. In Daniel chapters 7 - 12, the end-time ruler is described as the:
-little horn
-one who makes desolate
-abomination of desolation
-the one destroyed by Jesus' coming

Daniel 11:3
"Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Here is the link to read the original text with the more accurate meaning of what Daniel wrote:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... =12&ncc=12

Daniel 11:3 "Forces arise desecrate sacred refuge to change continuity appoint destable desolation"

The LORD's army is commanded to put on the full armor as the battle for truth rages. When the belivers are unarmed with the sword of truth, they will be destroyed, and those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains.

Daniel 12:11
"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Here is the link to read the original text with the more accurate meaning of what Daniel wrote in this passage:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... =11&ncc=11

Daniel 12:11 "When continuity abolished horrible destruction ascribe 1290 days."

The abomination of desolation is Jerusalem surrounded by armies and the destroying of the believers who have become apostate. Those in Judea will see it, and then flee to the mountains. (Obviously, we are seeing a great possibility of this happening at this time.)

(I'll post the rest about Paul in another post.)
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 9:00 am

Continued from Nike asking:

And what is the abomination of desolation which Daniel as well as Jesus and Paul (man of lawlessness) point to, according to your view?


Paul wrote to the gentile church at Thessalonica:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Apostasy is when the believers allow false teaching to sit on the throne instead of the having truth rule.
Paul writes the apostasy will deceive first, then the man of lawlessness (the man against truth, against Christ Jesus,) will come. The passage is about being deceived. Believers are commanded to hold on faithfully to the truth.

Jesus said believers we are to be salt - a preservative of truth. Salt restrains spoilage. Believers are to restrain the spoilage caused by apostasy. Jesus is to be on the throne, not other idols in our lives. Jesus warned that when the church becomes apostate, it will no longer be salty. When salt is not salty it is good for nothing but to be trampled. Without salt, the spoilage will take over and destroy. When Jesus said believers were to be the salt of the world, He was reminding the Jews of the importance of salt in the law. Salt was a picture for the Jews to be faithful. Paul, speaking to gentiles says it clearly without referring to salt. The apostate wolves among the sheep come first, then the anti-Christ.

The Salt Covenant points to Christ:
Exodus:30:35
"With it you shall make incense, a perfume, the work of a perfumer, salted, pure, and holy.

Leviticus 2:13
'Every grain offering of yours, moreover, you shall season with salt, so that the salt of the covenant of your God shall not be lacking from your grain offering; with all your offerings you shall offer salt.

Numbers 18:19
"All the offerings of the holy gifts, which the sons of Israel offer to the LORD, I have given to you and your sons and your daughters with you, as a perpetual allotment. It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD to you and your descendants with you."

Even though Jesus put an end to the blood sacrifice and grain offering, as Daniel 9 said He would, believers are to be the salt of the world, worshiping in the truth of the bread of life that was pictured in the grain offering. Salt sprinkled is good. Salt all together destroys. "Go into all the world and make disciples" is the command for the salt. "Bread loves salt" for without it...yuck! Too much salt is even worse. The salt is to be sprinkled throughout the world. It is apostate to remain in a holy huddle and preach on what is good for the salt, instead of what good the salt should do for preserving truth.

2 Kings 2:20-21
He said, "Bring me a new jar, and put salt in it." So they brought it to him. He went out to the spring of water and threw salt in it and said, "Thus says the LORD, 'I have purified these waters; there shall not be from there death or unfruitfulness any longer.'"

2 Chronicles 13:5
"Do you not know that the LORD God of Israel gave the rule over Israel forever to David and his sons by a covenant of salt?

Matthew 5:13
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men

Mark 9:49-50
"For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

Luke 14:34
"Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

The gentiles to whom Paul wrote, had not grown up in a culture looking forward to the salt covenant of David's rule. Therefore, Paul spoke clearly and directly about their apostasy that had taken truth off the throne. They had allowed deceivers to convince them that they had missed Jesus' second coming. So Paul plainly tells the believers in his warning to them that deception in the believers will come first, and then the man of lawlessness will destroy believers, the temple of God. The word "temple" used in this passage fits with Paul's usage of the word five other times in his letters to refer to the the believers as the temple. The gentile believers had not been worshiping at the temple, nor had they been instructed to do so. Paul taught them that all believers are the temple of God, the holy place where God dwells by His Holy Spirit. In both letters Paul wrote to Timothy, he goes on at great lengths to warn of the apostasy and how to deal with it:
1 Timothy 4:1-5
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Daniel was confessing the lawlessness of the Jews that brought about their captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem and its leaders, when the angel Gabriel brought the message that God is faithful to the covenant even though His people are not.

Jesus now reigns in the lives of those who walk in the truth and the light of the bread of life. They are the salt of the earth, a witness that Jesus finished the grain offerings. God will fulfill the Salt Covenant when Jesus, in the lineage of David, will come again to reign over all forever. AMEN!
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 10:23 am

OXB wrote:
I understand that some believe the word Temple in the New Testament cannot ever refer to a physical building


I cannot understand how anyone could believe that, so I will not be addressing that straw man, of course.

You are not alone in your thinking of a literal temple. I was taught the same, and taught it to many - including my own children. But I am no longer watching for a rebuilt temple when Jesus clearly said He was the temple, we are the body of Christ, our bodies are the temple of the living God, and Paul teaches the same. Since God is still alive, seated on the throne, ruling all His creation, and believers have the holy spirit, making them a holy place where God dwells, which is the temple as Jesus and Paul said...

Revelation begins with Jesus measuring the lampstands, the churches. The two Jewish churches are commended. However, Jesus addresses the apostasty and false teachers in the other churches. Jesus spoke of wolves among the sheep; and angels will sort sheep from goats, and clean fish from unclean fish. Scripture also teaches that the church will be purged in the same manner that the Jews of the Old Testament were purged - by the abomination of desolation - going into captivity and being destroyed. Even though the temple, the believers, will be destroyed, it is just the body, the temple, that is destroyed. Jesus will raise it up again and bring his bride, his wife, the New Jerusalem down with Him out of heaven when He comes again to rule over all forever! AMEN!

Revelation 11:1-5
v. 1) Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

The measuring rod, translated "staff" is a king's sceptor. There is no way a king's sceptor is used to measure a literal temple. Sceptors are for ruling, not for construction projects. In 2 Samuel 8:2 David used a rod to measure who lived and who died. Jesus will do the same. Those worshiping at the temple - among the believers, the church - they will be measured to see who lives and who dies. True believers remain as the temple, while false teachers will be told to "Depart from me. I never knew you."

v. 2) "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

The gentiles worshiped in the outer court separate from the Jews of the inner court. Salt that is no longer salty will be trampled as if it is in the outer court meant for the gentiles. Note how the word "they"/people refers to "it"/temple. Clearly, the temple is the people in this Old Testament prophecy. The outer court is not measured, but turned over to the enemy for purging.

v. 3) "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

There is no mention of two men in the passage. The passage has been speaking of inner court/peoples vs. outer court/people. Two witnesses are faithful.

2 witnesses = 2 olive trees = 2 lampstands
Since lampstands = churches, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches.

Zechariah testifies to a measuring of the people, olive trees, and a lampstand too. Zechariah is building the truth in people, the house for truth; he is not building a temple. The plumbline is the eyes of the LORD; it is not an actual measuring instrument. The text clearly states this:
Zechariah 2:9-14
"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
"For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel--these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth."
Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?"
So he answered me, saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."


Once again, scripture is clear about standing with the LORD as a faithful witness being filled with the Holy Spirit, pictured as oil throughout the scriptures.

Isaiah testifies that Zechariah is a faithful witness. The passage above is concerned with the people believing Zechariah's testimony.
Isaiah 8:2
"And I will take to Myself faithful witnesses for testimony, Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah."

Zechariah spoke of the offices of priest and king both being fulfilled by the Messiah. The believers are priests serving in a tent, tabernacle, body until Jesus returns.

Revelation 1:4-6
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Last edited by Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 10:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 10:34 am

Reed is also something that portrays the measurement of something other than physical, like the spirit.

2 Kings 18:21 Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, [even] upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so [is] Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.

Isa 36:6 Lo, thou trustest in the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; whereon if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so [is] Pharaoh king of Egypt to all that trust in him.

Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Jesus echoed this:

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Eze 29:6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I [am] the LORD, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.

Luk 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Just some thoughts....
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 12:22 pm

I'm sorry but I disagree with you Bob. All of them are using the reed to symbolize the status of the subject, which is clearly a measurement of its spiritual state.

So how is it possible for the A/C, the man of perdition, to seat himself in the Temple of God...since it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to dwell inside the man of perdition, thus disqualifying his body from being the Temple of God?


Who else was called the "son of perdition"?
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Finaldash on Tue May 26, 2009 1:35 pm

:nothingtoadd:
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 1:39 pm

OBXBob wrote:Hi Ken,

You wrote:

I'm sorry but I disagree with you Bob. All of them are using the reed to symbolize the status of the subject, which is clearly a measurement of its spiritual state.


You inject the word 'measurement' where it is not. IMO, the authors of the Bible would have inserted the word 'measure' if that is what they had meant. And when they did include measure and reed in the same passage, it was to measure a physical dimension. IMO, allegorization simply does not hold water in this instance.

I like to let scripture interpret scripture, and IMO, Revelation 21:15 does just that relative to Revelation 11:1 (not to mention multiple O.T. passages) where the words 'reed' and 'measure' are used together.

We simply have a different method of interpreting the scriptures, Ken, so we'll have to disagree on the meaning of 'Temple' and call it a day! :hugs:

YBIC,

Bob


I inject nothing. I am talking about the word reed, and that's it. Not any parallel, just how it is defined in scripture.
If you want to undestand the word, and what may mean or symbolize, we look to scripture.
That's all I have done. Not my words, but God's.

Ditto on your obsertion. Having tow views is better than one IMO, keeps us all ready, either way.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 2:21 pm

Looks like we all have "deep" thoughts on this.
:lol:
"Deep" would require measuring length, width and height according to OBX? Of course not. I was speaking of thoughts evaluated with the LORD's standard of measure. As a part of my undergrad studies for being a science teacher, the class on "Tests for Measurement Evaluations" was required. I wrote so many papers and lesson plans on measurement evaluations, and then used it daily while grading papers for years. Measuring evaluating how believers did on tests is the idea in the passage.

...think outside the box l x w x h and look at the context of the Revelation 11:1
Go to this page to see each and every word of the original language, not just Strongs. Then click on each of the words for the meanings of each word to pop up:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... nt=na&sr=1

Kai edoqh (5681) moi kalamov omoiov rabdw, legwn, (5723) Egeire (5720) kai metrhson (5657) ton naon tou qeou kai to qusiasthrion kai touv proskunountav (5723) en autw.

I clicked on each word, found their meanings, and wrote them in the order they were written.
Rev. 11:1
"Indeed given me a staff resembling a royal sceptre speak to arouse indeed to judge these this that of God representative indeed these altars indeed these worshipers by themselves.


There is no way this passage refers to the size of a building. Worshipers are to be judged according to the King's measure, through His representative, Jesus, and all that is not of God will burn away.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 2:30 pm

Nicely done Lisa...could we petition you to translate the Word? Just kidding :grin:
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby savedbygrace on Tue May 26, 2009 2:58 pm

Could someone please tell THESE people there will be no third temple? And tell them to stop fabricating all those fancy silver and gold lavers, mizraks, vessels, flasks, trumpets, shofars, chalices and priestly garments too... (In case anyone is wondering, Jewish people are some of the most determined and stubborn people in the world and when they put their minds to something, they usually accomplish it). http://www.templeinstitute.org/gallery.htm
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 3:28 pm

Revelation 21:15 in the original:

Kai o lalwn (5723) met' emou eixen (5707) metron kalamon xrusoun, ina metrhsh (5661) thn polin kai touv pulwnav authv kai to teixov authv.
The meaning of the original woods of the vesrse:
Indeed these to speak after me possess the standard of judgment staff made of gold in order to judge according to standard these the city in which one lives indeed this gate of a palace himself indeed this wall around the city himself.

Indeed the ones who speak after me possess the standard of judgment staff, made of gold, in order to judge according to the standard, of these, the city, in which one lives, indeed, this gate of a palace himself, indeed this wall around the city himself.

Believers after John possess the word of God in order to judge, according to the truth, their lives.

This fits with verses of the church as living stones being built into a spiritual house upon Christ:
1 Peter 2:4-11
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from (fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.


Malachi 1:10
"Oh that there were one among you who would shut the gates, that you might not uselessly kindle fire on My altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD of hosts, " nor will I accept an offering from you.

There was no one to stop the apostasy, and the LORD was not pleased.

A good shepherd lies down in the doorway as a gate to protect His sheep. The Good Shpherd did this when He lay down His life for the sheep, and did not lose a one that the Father had given to Him. Jesus is the way through the gate into the city, the people of God, the believers, the place where God the Holy Spirit dwells.

John 10:1
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:11
" I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:14
" I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

Hebrews 13:12
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Years ago, J. Vernon McGee wrote a booklet, "The Gospel in the Gates of Jerusalem" that has had me thinking about gates of scripture (356 times in the NASB) for years.
Last edited by Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 3:36 pm

Yes Bob, I think we should be ready for ANYTHING from the deceiver!

Walrus, you are the one who loves to translate!

Bugs, you crack me up! It is so hard to not get excited about how things were done in the Old Testament that pointed to Christ!

Finaldash - thanks for joining us in working through the puzzle!
:banana:

:oops:
...lost the others?
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 4:38 pm

So how is it possible for the A/C, the man of perdition, to seat himself in the Temple of God...


That is pretty much the definition of apostasy. If I would just put on the full armor of God, then the flaming arrows of the deceiver would not penetrate my heart and lead me astray. Sin is putting something other than God on the throne. The throne belongs to God alone. Ours is a jealous God who does not want His children worshiping idols, which is sinning.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 4:48 pm

LOL you all are too much!

Back to topic...Pretz, Bob, others.....to understand ther term Paul used, and the nature of it we must turn to the other place in scripture wher we see the "son of perdition." This person is associated with apostacy.

Who, is the first church, that is the disciples, went apostate, or..better yet, was called "son of perdition"?

Judas.

Paul is telling us, this man or person, will be within the church, although apostate, will be from within. This too confirms Rev 17, the mother of harlots, responsible for the deaths of the saints.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue May 26, 2009 5:34 pm

Wall Doctor-

Forgive me for coming in late here. I had to find a number 2 pencil.

Now as to why the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is not the new covenant in Messiah's blood. The 70 sevens of Daniel 9:24-27 were almost fulfilled during the time of the reconstruction of the temple and the death of the Messiah. After the decree went out to restore Jerusalem (I believe it was Cyrus), we can count 69 sevens until the Messiah. The backdrop here is that years have been the standard of time measurement as Daniel has been praying, Daniel 9:2. He understood by reading Jeremiah's writings (Jeremiah 25:11-12, 29:10) that there would be 70 years of desolation for Jerusalem, so in realizing that the time is almost up, he begins to pray that the desolation would be over and that the sanctuary would be restored as in time's before, Daniel 9:17. Remember that Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian ascended power over the Babylonians on the same year as noted by Josephus. So the first year of Darius here in Daniel 9 corresponds with the first year of Cyrus in Ezra 1. That is interesting to note because Daniel's prayer for the process to be started is answered in the same year that he prayed the prayer.

So the city of Jerusalem is restored, the temple is rebuilt, and faithful Israelites are counting down to the Messiah. The prophecy states that after 7 and 62 sevens that Messiah/Prince's coming will occur. The passage further clarifies that after the 62 sevens that the Messiah will be cut off, die, and will have nothing. So after Messiah is cut off, there is really not much more to be said of Him in this passage since He has nothing. We should remember that although Messiah's coming in general is spoken of, it is His death in particular which occurs at the end of the 69th seven.

The people of the prince to come destroy the temple. This is after the death of the Messiah and after the 7 and 62 sevens. Better yet, we have counted off 483 years of the 490 year total. Now Gabriel gives to us a description of ongoing destruction that will happen until the "end", Daniel 9:26. The people of the prince to come destroy the temple after the death of the Messiah. This is the destruction of the temple in 70AD. This destruction was accomplished by the Roman army headed up by Titus. At the time he was son of the emperor Vespasian, so he was a prince.

So as we transition into verse 27 of the passage, we must remember that Gabriel sees Messiah as dying and having nothing. He also sees a Roman prince (of the fourth beast since all Daniel's prophecies are complementary) and the Roman prince's people coming to destroy the rebuilt temple. Then there is an ongoing period of wars and desolations until the end. Then "he shall make a strong covenant with many for one seven". This is the final seven of the 70 sevens. It is a seven year period which begins with a male figure making a strong covenant which lasts for one seven year period only. For half of this week, the latter half, the same figure puts a stop to sacrifice and offering. At that time (as the sacrifice is put to a stop) another figure comes as the desolator. He comes in conjuction with abominations. So abominations are occurring at the time that sacrifice is being put to a stop and a decreed end is poured out upon this desolator. So because of an abomination in the midst of the week (seven year period), a desolation follows at the end of the week.

Are you with me so far, Wall Doctor? How could Gabriel have been speaking of the Messiah in verse 27 when he said that the Messiah is cut off, has nothing, and further, the prince to come (Titus) would destroy the temple, then "he shall make a strong covenant"??? And why would the new covenant which God would make with the house of Israel be spoken of here as only for "one seven"?

Further, when Jesus speaks, he uses the terminology "abomination of desolation" in the Olivet Discourse. The abomination that Jesus speaks of is something that stands where it's not supposed to be, Mark 13:14. The other two passages in Daniel which name the abomination of desolation (8:12-14, and 11:30-31) give the clear impression that as the sacrifices are taken away, that another type of worship which is an abomination to God is set up. It is that act of another form of worship being set up in the temple where it ought not to be that causes the desolation to come upon it.

In 70AD, no system of worship was set up in the temple. Jesus also prophesied that following the abomination of desolation would be the great tribulation. If you believe 70AD was the focal point of the Olivet Discourse, you have to reverse the order. The time of great persecution was before the destruction of the temple. Once the city was compromised and the temple was destroyed, the Jews had already suffered through the seige.

Too many people try to mix and match the prophecies in the Temple Discourse (Luke 21) with the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13). They are two different discourses in two different locations to two different audiences concerning two different topics. The Temple Discourse is concerning the destruction of the temple in 70AD but then goes on to say that the Son of Man would come in power and glory after that. The Olivet Discourse is directed at four disciples who wanted to know what the sign of His coming would be. They wanted further clarification about what Jesus intimated in the Temple Discourse. The Olivet Discourse gives a chronological sequence of abomination of desolation, then the great tribulation, then the cosmic signs, then His coming as He gathers the elect.

Too many people also try to read the New Covenant truths back into the law and prophets. Sometimes there are passages which speak of Messiah (Isaiah's suffering servant) being given as a covenant, Isaiah 42:1-7, 49:6-9. But these passages are self explanatory. They clearly show forth a figure being given as a covenant for His people. To read the new covenant in Messiah's blood into Daniel 9:27 strays from clear exegesis of the passage. Sometimes spiritual application can be brought out of a concrete prophetic passage, but not always. The text must prove the point and here Daniel 9:27 does NOT prove the point. One must read into the passage many ideas that simply aren't there.

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 5:45 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:We should remember that although Messiah's coming in general is spoken of, it is His death in particular which occurs at the end of the 69th seven.


But the text doesn't state that OM, you know that. The word used here to describe following the 69th week, which would place it after, not before or towards the end, is Strong's H310 - 'achar
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... H310&t=KJV

It apears that many people miss this issue, and continue interpreting the rest of the prophecy wrong.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 6:37 pm

Indeed, Walrus! I agree!
("Indeed" is no longer Greek to me, thanks to looking at the original texts. haha)

Since you brought up the harlot...I will do some thinking aloud associations that came to me while reading this chapter, and hope folks will give insight:
Please look at how this one chapter in Ezekiel relates to what we have been finding:
Ezekiel 8
(Vision of Abominations in Jerusalem)
1 It came about in the sixth year, on the fifth day of the sixth month, as I was sitting in my house with the elders of Judah sitting before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell on me there.

So what is the significance of 656? One short of ten kings? or what? or nothing? Since this is in September, was this at the time of the feast of tabernacles?

2 Then I looked, and behold, a likeness as the appearance of a man; from His loins and downward there was the appearance of fire, and from His loins and upward the appearance of brightness, like the appearance of glowing metal.

This corresponds to the message to the church at Thyatira:
18"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
20 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
24 'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you.
25 'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
26 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27 AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON,
AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'



The church was measured: some came up short, others are to keep steadfast until they overcome and are given authority to rule with the rod of iron, meaning to judge without bending the rules of God. We are not to tolerate false teachers, Jezebels.

3 He stretched out the form of a hand and caught me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the idol of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy, was located.

"form of a hand" - like the hand that appeared and wrote on the wall the judgment of the kingdom that was measured and came up short.
"lock of my head" - like Samson who did not know that the LORD had left him when his locks were removed. (Apostate)
The entrance of the north gate to the inner court - at the entrance of the gate to the altar is the seat of the idol of jealousy which provokes jealously. That sounds like a jealous Satan wanting to block the entrance to the altar of our jealous God. God is jealous for His people, His bride, His wife, the holy city, the new Jerusalem.

4 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the appearance which I saw in the plain.

In Ezekiel 44:4 God's glory fills the house of the LORD. The North gate is the front of the house. It is measured. Ezekiel fell on his face and worshiped there where God's glory filled the house. (The house is the believers.) In Ezekiel 3, the glory of the LORD was standing on the plain. It has now entered the house, the believers, making them a holy place.

5 Then He said to me, "Son of man, raise your eyes now toward the north " So I raised my eyes toward the north, and behold, to the north of the altar gate was this idol of jealousy at the entrance.

6 And He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations which the house of Israel are committing here, so that I would be far from My sanctuary? But yet you will see still greater abominations."


The abominations of worshiping the idol of jealousy will grow worse. God will be far from His sanctuary. They have a form of worship, but it is not of God. The gate to worship God is kept by the idol jealousy.

7 Then He brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, a hole in the wall.

8 He said to me, "Son of man, now dig through the wall." So I dug through the wall, and behold, an entrance.

9 And He said to me, "Go in and see the wicked abominations that they are committing here."


There is a hole in the wall of the holy temple. Not good. Not built solid. Again, a picture of apostasy.

10 So I entered and looked, and behold, every form of creeping things and beasts and detestable things, with all the idols of the house of Israel, were carved on the wall all around.

11 Standing in front of them were seventy elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them, each man with his censer in his hand and the fragrance of the cloud of incense rising.


When Moses father-in-law suggests seventy elders help rule, was it of God, or was it a compromise with the ways of the Midianite priest?
Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.


12 Then He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are committing in the dark, each man in the room of his carved images? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'"

13 And He said to me, "Yet you will see still greater abominations which they are committing."

14 Then He brought me to the entrance of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and behold, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz.


Now at the North Gate of the women's court, the women cry for Tammuz, from Nimrod, the mighty hunter of sun and moon worshipers.

15 He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these."

16 Then He brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun.


The apostasy of turning their backs on the temple (the believers) to worship the sun, as is done in Eastern religions.

17 He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have filled the land with violence and provoked Me repeatedly? For behold, they are putting the twig to their nose.

God offers nobility, and they choose twigs in the nose like pagans.

18 "Therefore, I indeed will deal in wrath. My eye will have no pity nor will I spare; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet I will not listen to them." [/i]
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue May 26, 2009 6:55 pm

Okay Walrus, how about a clarification?

Messiah's death occurs after the 7 and 62 sevens, but it is in no way connected to the 70th seven. Messiah's death is after the 483 years, yet Gabriel does nothing to describe the last 7 years until after the description of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple which occurred in 70AD. So as of 70AD no figure had made a covenant with many for one seven year period. No abomination was placed as a system of worship within the temple as of 70AD either.

It is my view that as the 69th week expired on Palm Sunday, then Messiah died and had nothing.

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby nike on Tue May 26, 2009 7:18 pm

It's about time you showed up, Orange...glad to see you! :banana:
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 7:28 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:
Okay Walrus, how about a clarification?

Messiah's death occurs after the 7 and 62 sevens, but it is in no way connected to the 70th seven. Messiah's death is after the 483 years, yet Gabriel does nothing to describe the last 7 years until after the description of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple which occurred in 70AD.


It's connnected in verse 27 :grin:

OM, the part that introduces the prince in verse 26, is preceded by Messiah, or Mashiyach. The part is only three words:

'am nagiyd bow' (Hey! There's BOW again! Just kidding)

The text states 'am nagiyd bow'...or a nation/people's prince to be introduced.
The prince isn't introduced, it is a declaration that he will be introduced.
Do you notice that, "but not for himself, and the people" are one word? 'am
Why?
They are two thoughts in the view you present. But these two ideas of what you present, are but of one word, and the prior phrase is tied to the Messiah, Jesus. Therefore, the people, are tied to Him as well, becasue it is part of that word. Which in turn, makes the prophecy make complete sense and that the only central focus is Christ, the Jews, Jerusalem and Temple, and listen very carefully, the abominations in which the Religious clergy of the Mosaic system had continued right up until the end in which the consummation of the New Kingdom overthrew the old. Verse 27 is a description of the last week, when Christ came to earth and began His ministry to the Jews. Everyone is right, this is only about the Jews. This prophecy is finished in the work of Christ on earth with the Jews. It closed at 70 AD.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 7:41 pm

Orange wrote:

One must read into the passage many ideas that simply aren't there.


Like this:
This is the destruction of the temple in 70AD. This destruction was accomplished by the Roman army headed up by Titus. At the time he was son of the emperor Vespasian, so he was a prince.


These people are no where in this passage of scripture. Randomly adding them while ignoring the truth of the scriptures is not acceptable to me. Scripture explains scripture. Period. All must be verified in the scriptures two or three times - by two or three witnessess. Your explanation is non-scriptural on numerous accounts. The whole truth must stay within the understanding of scripture:
John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

The only scriptures at that time were the Old Testament. Jesus claims they spoke of Him.

Too many people also try to read the New Covenant truths back into the law and prophets.


Jesus was one of these people who did this, so more should do it too:
Luke 4:17
And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."


Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD


Jesus stopped quoting part of the way through the passage because His first coming ended at that part of the passage. Jesus was cut off midway through the week, and will come again to fulfill the rest of the passage. So picking it up midway through verse 2, speaking of Jesus second coming...
And the day of vengeance of our God;

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 "You are witnesses of these things.
49 "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."


it is His death in particular which occurs at the end of the 69th seven.


No. Scripture says he died mid-week and rose on the first day of the next week.
The temple (the believers) were destroyed after the Messiah ascended into heaven. That is what the scriptures say repeatedly.

No need to know secular history or read the writings that are not scirptural (Josephus) in order to understand the text interpreting the text.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue May 26, 2009 8:05 pm

Hello Pretzelogical-

These people are no where in this passage of scripture. Randomly adding them while ignoring the truth of the scriptures is not acceptable to me. Scripture explains scripture. Period. All must be verified in the scriptures two or three times - by two or three witnessess. Your explanation is non-scriptural on numerous accounts. The whole truth must stay within the understanding of scripture:


Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

So you disagree that Gabriel was explaining to Daniel that the temple would be rebuilt during troublous times? It's clear that this is the case. Daniel's inquiry was concerning the sanctuary which at the time of that prayer lay desolate. The rebuilding of Jerusalem will be accomplished with the destruction of the city and sanctuary following. What do you believe this destruction in Daniel 9:26 is referring to?

No. Scripture says he died mid-week and rose on the first day of the next week.
The temple (the believers) were destroyed after the Messiah ascended into heaven. That is what the scriptures say repeatedly.

No need to know secular history or read the writings that are not scirptural (Josephus) in order to understand the text interpreting the text.


How was the temple of believers destroyed? And what scriptures do you use to support the idea that the believers were destroyed? Are you saying that the temple of Ephesians 2:20-22 has been destroyed since the writing of the book of Ephesians?

The subject here is sevens of years. There is no support for days since the temple took much longer than 490 days to be built, Ezra 4:1-5, Haggai 1:1. So to switch to an interpretation of days for the 70th week is unfounded. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah, there is a period of 69 sevens. How does your interpretation of days as opposed to years work?

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Tue May 26, 2009 8:37 pm

Hey Walrus-

The construction of the Hebrew seems to be interesting, and I confess that I don't read Hebrew. But whichever people destroy the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary are the ones which belong to the prince in question. So these are Romans which belong to Titus, under his direct command, destroying the city and sanctuary. They cause further destruction and desolation to an underdetermined end in the end of verse 26. The end in verse 27 is poured out upon the desolator. I don't know how you reconcile that the decreed end has already been poured out upon the desolator which happens in conjunction with an abomination which brings desolation.

If the ultimate end has been brought in, then all the prophecies of Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. I don't believe you can make a reasonable case that everlasting righteousness has been brought in. We only have the down payment, Ephesians 1:14, until the redemption of the purchased possession. Since Daniel's prophecies all interact with each other, when the ultimate end comes, the saints will be given the kingdom, Daniel 7:18. The kingdoms of this world have yet to become the kingdoms of the Messiah which was the subject of Nebuchadnezzar's Colussus and Daniel's vision of the 4 beasts. After the 7th trumpet, then it can be stated that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of the Messiah, Revelation 11:15.

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 8:59 pm

OM, I agree that this is about seven years, but what many don't see is that the last half of the seven years is timestamped here in that " for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. " This last part of the week, began at His ascension and ended with 70 AD, so therefore it really isn't 3.5 years left, it was forty. These events must happen within the last half of the week. Some say it ended with the stoning of Stephen, some say it will be fulfilled in the Great Tribulation. Maybe so, but what is revealing about it all is:

1) The Woman is nourished in the wilderness Rev 12 - Israel gets 40 years to decide on Chirst - this is because of Christ's plea for God's forgiveness on His murderers. - 42 Months the beast wages war on the saints - Israel Encamps in 42 different locations in the wilderness. All possible connections, with plenty of scripture I believe to back it up.

2)Overspreading of abominations - meaning lots of...overspreading like the wings of a bird - kanaph - This was fulfilled in the Mosaic system that continued their abominations to God. Jesus even pointed to this in the Olivet Discourse. He pointed to Daniel, but was it AEIV (Antiochus Epiphanes) He was referring to, or was it the High Priest allied with AEIV? Most likely the High Priest, because the harlot was never considered to be the pagan gentiles, it was the church. - THis again aligns hermeneutically to the Mother of Harlot, Mysrtery Babylon. The same went for the High Priest's from Jesus' cruxifiction to 70 AD. Their alliance with Rome, Babylon at the time, was an abomination, a harlotry ljust like before, over and over again.

3)There has to be a connection to 3.5 years. If the rest of the prophecy is dealing with weeks of years, then there has to be a connection to it. IMO, this prophecy laid the groundwork for the keys to understanding the 1260 days, time, times and a half time and 42 months. The 1290 and 1335 days are fulfilled in the Maccabean Revolt, the 3.5 years associated with it from the defilement, and 2300 days till the cleansing performed after Jerusalem was recaptured. Now there is a chance that these events are indeed a shadow of the Great Tribulation, and the harlotry of the church and its consentual relationship with the world. But the focus is not the pagan leader, but the Jewish church.
These events, the time Israel was given a chance to accept Christ, the 40 years in the desert, the 42 encampments and what they symbolized, possibly the travailing time the Jewish people endured during AEIV siege, the time of persectution and witness the saints experience in the Great Tribulation, all are connected.

And this prophecy points to a half of seven years, all repeated in the same time frame in Revelation.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 26, 2009 9:16 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Hey Walrus-

The construction of the Hebrew seems to be interesting, and I confess that I don't read Hebrew. But whichever people destroy the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary are the ones which belong to the prince in question.


And the People belong to the Himself.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Tue May 26, 2009 9:19 pm

I truly have been at this all day, but I will try to keep up...

Yes, Walrus, I agree:
the Messiah the prince=the prince who is to come
The people of the prince, the Jews, destroyed Jesus' body, the temple. And He raised it again in three days, just as He said He would.

Now for the mailman:
Daniel 9:25
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, [b]with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.[b]

Only one decree fits this description. Nehemiah, Ezra, etc. fulfilled this.
The Messiah came exactly when promised. Amazing!
The "wise men" who followed the star studied Daniel's writings and were watching for the Messiah to come 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem with wall and moat. (Were they Jews who did not return to Jerusalem?)

How was the temple of believers destroyed?

Stephen was the first, of course. Scripture says the world was not worthy of them. The death of the saints is well-documented in scripture. Believers are the temple, the body of Christ, the holy place where God's Holy Spirit dwells, the holy city, the bride of Christ, the wife of Christ, the New Jerusalem...see previous posts in this thread.

I also addressed Ephesian 2 numerous times. Even though the body of Christ, the church, the temple built of living stones, built on the foundation of the prophets, built upon the chief cornerstone the builder's rejected...even though believers are killed, the believers never die, but have eternal life. Out of the body, and with the LORD.

I know you know all this. I am not saying anything new to you. Nor am I saying anything that is not in the scriptures.
What I am saying is very straight-forward in the scriptures. Why do you not understand the scriptures that say:
-Jesus called His body the temple that He would raise in 3 days.
-Believers are the body of Christ.
-Believers are the temple with the holy place where the Holy Spirit dwells.
-Believers are a holy priesthood serving before God.
-Believers are put in Christ and wear white robes of righteousness washed in the blood of the Lamb.
-Believers are to be poured out like a drink offering.
-Believers are to be salt and light.
-Jesus said that salt that is no longer salty is not good for anything but to be trampled. (Apostates will be trampled.)
-Jesus said a light is not to be hidden, but believers are to shine their good works to bring praises to the Father.
-Apostasy comes first. Wolves who look like sheep will deceive and devour believers.
-Believers are to be pillars in the temple.
-Believers are living stones built upon the prophets and Jesus the chief cornerstone.
-Jesus evaluates (judges, measures) the nations, the churches, and the believers (the temple).
-Believers are the New Jerusalem.
-Believers are the holy city.
-Believers are the wife of Christ.
-Believers are tested.
-Believers are persecuted, betrayed and killed.
-Believers who have died will return with Christ.
-Believers are to put on the full armor of God to keep free from sin and apostasy.
-Some who think they are believers are deceived and will be told to depart from Jesus who never knew them.
-churches are lampstands, olive trees and witnesses.
-the church restrains evil until the apostasy takes over the church.
-believers are the stars in heaven that are swept down by the dragon's tail.
-believers PREACH the gospel and are not ashamed of the cross of Jesus Christ, but glory in it.

The sin of apostasy allows Satan to rule the churches into a one world political, economic, religious system to destroy the believers. We are seeing this everywhere today, and it is getting worse at a tremendous speed. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies and the believers destroyed, then quickly flee Judea!
Last edited by Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Wed May 27, 2009 8:29 am

Pretz, I was with you until the last sentence. "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then flee to Judea!"
Christ's statement here was directed at His contemporaries and them only. The events that transpired as the pressure of Rome increased on Israel/Palestine/Judea, was a type of what we will see in the end times. Literally, this was fulfilled, and will be again symbolically, in undoubtedly, the same ways, only applied to the church/Jerusalem. You can have a type mimicked in various ways through the Bible, that either were fulfilled, or to be fulfilled. The possibility of properly and fully interpreting these kind of types in scripture rely heavily upon being able to interpret, or define the symbols used within the types. This is such a case. The events happened in the Roman/Jewish Wars in the late 60's, and the deliverance of thousands of Christians from harm, because they were "in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."
Unfortunately, because of Israel's second round into the wilderness again, enslaved into Babylon/Egypt, "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Things didn't go all that great for the saints from that time forward.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 8:56 am

Walrus - yes, personally, we are to flee to the Mountain of the Rock, Christ Jesus! AMEN!
And yes, it was fulfilled in Judea in the first century.
Now why is not going to happen again this way?
Thanks!
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed May 27, 2009 10:33 am

Walrus, I'm really trying to take your point of view seriously here. But sometimes it comes across as in-credible. Try not to be offended, but think how it looks from someone with a differing point of view. Take a look at this statement:

This last part of the week, began at His ascension and ended with 70 AD, so therefore it really isn't 3.5 years left, it was forty.


Here we are in the midst of passage dealing with 3.5 years, which you concede, then insist that it's really 40 years. I really can't see how any portion of the NT validates this claim. The ascension of the Messiah begins a portion in time which was prophesied of in scriptures, but it is not the 70th week. Psalm 110 states that the LORD will call to the Messiah to sit at His right hand until such time comes to make His enemies a footstool. Isaiah 42 and 49 also speak of the message of salvation going forth to the Gentiles. But these events must occur BEFORE the end spoken of in Daniel 9:26, 27.

2)Overspreading of abominations - meaning lots of...overspreading like the wings of a bird - kanaph - This was fulfilled in the Mosaic system that continued their abominations to God. Jesus even pointed to this in the Olivet Discourse. He pointed to Daniel, but was it AEIV (Antiochus Epiphanes) He was referring to, or was it the High Priest allied with AEIV? Most likely the High Priest, because the harlot was never considered to be the pagan gentiles, it was the church. - THis again aligns hermeneutically to the Mother of Harlot, Mysrtery Babylon. The same went for the High Priest's from Jesus' cruxifiction to 70 AD. Their alliance with Rome, Babylon at the time, was an abomination, a harlotry ljust like before, over and over again.


I will address this because it is directly relevant to the subject of the covenants. The Mosaic system is not an abomination to God. It was instituted by Christ (the lawgiver) with the ten commandments as the cornerstone of the Mosaic covenant. To say that the law is abolished now or to follow it is an abomination goes against the scriptures. Salvation does not come through obedience to the law, but by faith. If Jesus was pointing to a high priest allied in apostasy (forsaking of the law) with a Gentile ruler, then that priest was not following the law. I'm not saying that I agree with that point, because the abomination is a replacement, an alternate form of worship which brings desolation. The epitome of this will be when a man claims to be God and desires worship from that temple.

The covenant plan of God is progressive in nature. The Seed Promise of Genesis 3:15 is the cornerstone for all God's dealings with mankind. From there, we examine the Noahic Covenant. Without this, the Abrahamic Covenant really has not basis. Since the Noahic Covenant establishes that nations will develop (instead of their being one people) and that these nations will govern and enforce punishment, when God calls out a specific people from the loins of Abraham to be a nation, it is built upon the foundation of the Noahic Covenant. In like manner, the Mosaic and Palestinians Covenants have no place without understanding the Abrahamic Covenant, as promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

The Davidic Covenant is a further progression of the covenant plan of God. None of these aspects of God's covenant plan ever became an abomination to God. They are all eternal in nature, all looking forward to the New Covenant. The covenant plan of God is everlasting in nature. Compared to Messiah, some aspects of this covenant plan are fulfilled in Messiah, but never abolished. The only point that Paul was making in his epistles is the inferior position of the law to salvation itself.

And there really is no place in Daniel 9:27 to sqeeze in the covenant plan of God. No other scriptures line up with the events foretold here.

3)There has to be a connection to 3.5 years. If the rest of the prophecy is dealing with weeks of years, then there has to be a connection to it. IMO, this prophecy laid the groundwork for the keys to understanding the 1260 days, time, times and a half time and 42 months.


Here's the portion where we have some common ground. There is a 42 month period yet to be fulfilled. The events of Daniel 9:27 are of the distant end, as in the end of the age. When the determined end is poured out upon this desolator, we can expect that ALL of the goals of Daniel 9:24 will have been fulfilled. Everlasting righteousness will have been brought in. As of now, that is not the case.

And this prophecy points to a half of seven years, all repeated in the same time frame in Revelation.


Again, I agree with this point. But I can't see this time period already fulfilled, and yet unfulfilled. If the clock ticked off the 69 weeks, we cannot expect them to be fulfilled again. They are in the past because the event of Messiah's death is in the past. And since the events of Daniel 9:27 are future, I can't see that they were in any way fulfilled in the past, only a future fulfillment for Daniel's 70th week.

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed May 27, 2009 10:43 am

I have a friend who reads Hebrew. He has some comments on the Hebrew construction of Daniel 9:26. Hopefully, his comments will be as helpful to everyone else as they are to me.

He says it is - 'am nagiyd bow' - All he did is reproduce the vocabulary words. He left out the definite article that precedes "bow". It should be habo. And bo is the participle. With the definite article (the H in front), it must be rendered, "the one coming."

And there is an entire sentence that must be taken as a whole. After the first part of the verse, "and after the 62 sevens, the anointed one will be cut off, and there will be nothing to Him." The next sentence begins with the AND (we). Then we have, "the city and the sanctuary" (the Hebrew can be provided if necessary). Then we have, (he) will destroy.

So we have the OBJECT first - Then the verb - will destroy - Then the subject - the people -am- (a singular noun - that is why the verb is "he will destroy") The word "people" is in the construct state (requires "of" after it) and that
introduces a possessive idea. Thus, the people (OF) Then, a prince - nagiyd (there is not THE here).

BUT - since the adjectival participle has THE with it, it makes the word prince also definite, thus "the prince" is acceptable, because the participle "the one coming" refers to a specific "understood" prince. Thus, "the prince who is to come." Then the participle with the definite article (the) to qualify the word prince. It is an adjectival construction. Ie. which prince?

"the prince, the one coming" = the prince who is coming.

The subject is THE PEOPLE. The People are described as "of the prince who is to come. And the city and the sanctuary, the people of the prince who will come will destroy. We simply put in proper ENGLISH order - The people of a prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.


The word people, is NOT directly connected with the Messiah. It is an entirely separate sentence. There are only two characters here.
1. the Messiah of verse 25 and the Messiah of v. 26 are one and the same.
2. the prince who is to come is a different one who is seen as indeed, an enemy of Israel, who destroyes the city and the sanctuary.
Now - It MIGHT be claimed that it is the Messiah who "destroyed" the sanctuary since He completely fulfilled its symbolism. HOWEVER, He did not destroy the city. Thus, the most natural and reasonable understanding is that its THE PRINCE who is to come who fulfillled this prophecy in 70 AD.


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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed May 27, 2009 10:57 am

Pretzelogical-

Only one decree fits this description. Nehemiah, Ezra, etc. fulfilled this.
The Messiah came exactly when promised. Amazing!
The "wise men" who followed the star studied Daniel's writings and were watching for the Messiah to come 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem with wall and moat.


So you agree that the prophecy is speaking of years, but still insist that the final seven was seven days with the Messiah dying midweek and rising at the end? To switch midstream is unfounded in my view. The entire prophecy would be speaking of sevens of years, therefore Daniel's 70th week is 7 years in length.

Stephen was the first, of course. Scripture says the world was not worthy of them. The death of the saints is well-documented in scripture. Believers are the temple, the body of Christ, the holy place where God's Holy Spirit dwells, the holy city, the bride of Christ, the wife of Christ, the New Jerusalem...see previous posts in this thread.


I'm not looking for scriptural documentation that believers are a spiritual temple, I'm looking for scriptural documentation that this spiritual temple has been destroyed. By equating the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary of Daniel 9:26 with the destruction of the church (somehow?), you are ignoring the destruction of Jerusalem, and spiritualizing the destruction of the sanctuary. Is there some documentation which you can provide which shows that the church has already been destroyed?

The sin of apostasy allows Satan to rule the churches into a one world political, economic, religious system to destroy the believers. We are seeing this everywhere today, and it is getting worse at a tremendous speed.


Do you believe that Jesus still walks among the candlesticks? Are you a part of the church? If so, doesn't that mean that Satan is ruling you? Either way, these issues do not touch the integrity of what I have presented that the destruction of Daniel 9:26 occurred in 70AD and that Daniel's 70th week is yet future.

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 1:05 pm

At Jesus' baptism, He said, "the time is fulfilled"
That time was Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would come after 69 sevens.
The 483 years is made of 7 sevens (49 years) and 62 sevens (434 years) = 69 sevens
Daniel 9:26 says that after the 62 sevens, which followed the 7 sevens, the Messiah shall be cut off, therefore, after the 69th seven, meaning sometime during the 70th seven. "After" is not "at the end of". One seven ends, then another comes after.

Jesus was cut-off halfway through a 7 day period that began with Jesus entering Jerusalem like a king returning from war. (On a donkey.)
Jesus was cut-off from his 7 year ministry, serving only 3.5 years of it. The last 3.5 years of Jesus ministry remain to be fulfilled.

Jesus 3.5 year ministry began with these events at His baptism:
-Jesus was recognized as Messiah. (John 1:29 and others)
-Jesus said the promised kingdom was at hand. (Matthew 4:17-23)
-Jesus declared "the time is fulfilled" (Mark 1:15)
-The Father and Holy Spirit confirmed Jesus diety. (Mark 3:16-17)

Jesus fullfilled the time of the decree to come after the 69 sevens to the very day.
He was cut off halfway through the 70th seven, exactly as Daniel was told while he confessing the sins of his nation and himself for not obeying the covenant.
God sent the messenger to say that God is faithful to the covenant, and will confirm the covenant even though His people are not. The passage says the people of the Messiah the prince who is to come will destroy the Holy Temple; the people of Jesus destroyed the Holy Temple, Christ's body, the bread of life, the grain offering - and Jesus raised it back up in three days - just like Jesus told them.


"And he shall [b]confirm the covenant", not make a covenant. [/b]
The Salt Covenant, that promised the Messiah would come from David's lineage, was confirmed in the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, a fragrant and pleasing aroma.

Numbers 18:19
" All the offerings of the holy gifts, which the sons of Israel offer to the LORD, I have given to you and your sons and your daughters with you, as a perpetual allotment It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD to you and your descendants with you."

Exodus 30:35
"With it you shall make incense, a perfume, the work of a perfumer, salted, pure, and holy.

2 Chronicles 13:5
"Do you not know that the LORD God of Israel gave the rule over Israel forever to David and his sons by a covenant of salt?


Ephesians 5:1-21
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.


Mark 9:49-50
"For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

There are some who teach that the tribulation lasts 3.5 years to finish the 70th seven, with the bowl judgments poured out in 3.5 days to finish the week of creation. I have not found evidence of the bowl judgments being poured out in 3.5 days. But yes, it is symmetrical to the creation week.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 2:02 pm

Believers are the temple of God as the holy place for the Holy Spirit.
Believers gather together to form the church, both Jew and gentile.
In Ezekiel 8, the Idol of Jealousy is seated in the temple at the gate to the altar.
I think of the jealous pastors who become "seeker-friendly" to gain lots of followers of themselves instead of preaching the word.
I must confess my own sins of idol worship in order for me to make my way to the altar!

Revelation 12:4 and Daniel 8 "the mighty and holy people" are the VICTIMS not the followers. One-third of the believers (stars) are destroyed. That is an abomination of desolation against the temple, the body of Christ. Then it will be obvious who the man of lawlessness is as he will have the restrainer out of his way for him to make all hell break loose. (Literally, hunh Walrus?)

The Salt Covenant confirmed in Jesus, the Messiah the Prince who is to come:
Leviticus 2:13
'Every grain offering of yours, moreover, you shall season with salt, so that the salt of the covenant of your God shall not be lacking from your grain offering; with all your offerings you shall offer salt.

Numbers 18:19
" All the offerings of the holy gifts, which the sons of Israel offer to the LORD, I have given to you and your sons and your daughters with you, as a perpetual allotment It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD to you and your descendants with you."

2 Chronicles 13:5
"Do you not know that the LORD God of Israel gave the rule over Israel forever to David and his sons by a covenant of salt?

Who is to rule over Israel? The Messiah the Prince who is to come from the lineage of David! The Messiah the Prince who is to come confirmed that God is faithful to the covenant, even though the people of the Prince are not. Daniel was confessing for himself and his nation that they broke the covenant, when Gabriel was sent to explain that God is faithful to the covenant and will confirm it through the Messiah the Prince who is to come.

We are to be the salt of the earth preserving the truth in love. We are a confirmation of God's salt covenant. When the church stops being salt, and no longer preserves the truth, then it will be trampled. The church as the restrainer will be out of the way for the anti-Christ to have dominion for awhile. First the apostasy, then the AOD that takes the restrainer out of the way, then the AC is revealed

The destroying of the believers is the abomination of desolation. For people to overlook the destruction of the church and not think that is an abomination, well, that must please the enemy. (Will the AC and FP set up a tabernacle? Defile the roof of the palace as Absolom did? or what? We can read numerous speculations at this site.) The scriptures say he will assign a mark. The believers who were not destroyed will refuse the mark.

So...persecutions will come against the temple, the body of Christ, the believers.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby savedbygrace on Wed May 27, 2009 4:57 pm

Pretzelogical wrote:That time was Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would come after 69 sevens.
The 483 years is made of 7 sevens (49 years) and 62 sevens (434 years) = 69 sevens
Daniel 9:26 says that after the 62 sevens, which followed the 7 sevens, the Messiah shall be cut off, therefore, after the 69th seven, meaning sometime during the 70th seven.
Hi Pretzelogical, I believe 'after the 62 sevens' is when the Messiah was cut off or crucified. And the way Daniel 9:26 is written it does not mean the Messiah would be 'cut off' during the 70th week. In other words, 'after the 62 sevens' does not necessarily equate to 'during the 70th'. Do you see what I mean?

Blessings,
SBG
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed May 27, 2009 5:18 pm

Pretzelogical, I'm not quite following you. You post that Jesus died half way through the seventieth week, but how can that be the fulfillment of the covenant when that is strengthened at the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week? Jesus was only anointed at the beginning of His ministry, He did not strengthen a covenant at that time. Further, the covenant in Messiah's blood was not strengthened, it was cut when He shed His blood. So where are you placing the new covenant, at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, or at the midpoint?

Further, why would you place a 2000 year gap into the midst of Daniel 9:27? If I'm reading you correctly, you are stating that the first half of the 7 year period was fulfilled during the ministry of Jesus, but the second half remains unfulfilled. If that is so, you are inserting a 2000 year gap in the midst of a seven year period which begins with the strengthening of a 7 year covenant. Wouldn't this destroy Gabriel's original intent as he intimated the events of the 70th week?

By seeing a gap in between the 69th and 70th week, I'm seeing a time period when wars, desolations, and destructions occur (over Jerusalem and other places) in an ongoing manner until the end of the age. That's the way Daniel 9:26 reads. Messiah is cut off, then the city of Jerusalem is destroyed along with the sanctuary (temple), then to the end there shall be war along with decreed desolations. Then after that there is the confirmation of a 7 year covenant. In the midst of this covenant confirmed, sacrifices are put to an end and because of abomination a desolator comes and winds up meeting his decreed end. It seems forced to place a 2000 year gap here, but natural to place it at the end of 9:26.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
(2000 year gap here)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (or 2000 year gap here?) But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

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Re: The AntiChrist's Covenant

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed May 27, 2009 5:51 pm

We know that there will be false prophets and false christs in the last days, why isn't it that the Antichrist will be someone who professes faith in Christ and becomes a "christian" for 7 years, and in the first 1/2 of that 7 years is opposed to false religions and promotes Christianity, and then at the midpoint, completely abandons the faith, turns on us, persecutes the church. The many who fall away will be disillusioned with Christianity just like people are when a Jim Baker or a pastor of a local church falls away.


Wall Doctor-

You have another thought here that is sort of being ignored. Perhaps I can bring a bit of discussion out about this.

We would need to have some scriptures that would back this up. I'm open to the idea of someone being of some type of faith being the antichrist. But how about just reading a few scriptures which I believe are about the end times antichrist.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. 20... the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings. He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


Now concerning the above, you may say, well yeah, after he breaks the covenant he will be that way, but what about before? That's a good point and I'm glad you brought that up. Let's look at some more scriptures.

Daniel 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, on who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great - but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken - but by no human hand.


This passage gives the clear impression that his character precedes the attack on the saints by some time. His rise to power, his destruction (and oppression) of people, his supernatural ability to understand riddles, all these things seem to be his character from the get go.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37 He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.

Again, this seems to be his modus operandi. Not just something that will happen after he makes a "good guy type covenant" thereby fooling everybody. Take some time and read these passages over in their contexts. Come to some solid conclusions. Then after getting your foundation solid in Daniel, turn over to Revelation 13 and do the same thing.

These are the clearest passages that are usually undisputed. But there are others that might make you think. Remember Nebuchadnezzar before his heart was changed? He demanded worship from everyone and was angry when Israelites did not comply. He was a dictator made god, Daniel 3.

If you can, take some time and read I Macabbees about when Antiochus came into the holy land and deceive the Israelites. The Israelites were not tricked into following a good guy, they had already decided they weren't going to follow the Word of God. They forsook the laws of Moses in favor of allegiance with the world. That's how it is going to happen. That forsaking of the law of Moses by the nation of Israel is described by the word apostasy, and that's how it is used in the New Testament as well.

Any ?

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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 7:14 pm

Bob - I am truly sorry to frustrate you with my unclear explanations! Apparently my saying the same thing again and again is not very helpful.
:bag:
Here goes again, you patient man!
You asked:
2 Thessalonians 2:4. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Who do you say the 'he' is? Exactly who or what is God's Temple, in your opinion?


He is the man of lawlessness.
The temple is the saints, the believers, the church, the holy city, the new Jerusalem, the bride of Christ, the wife of Christ...all of these terms refer to us! WOW! What amazing grace!

2 Thes 2:3-4
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Paul is discussing apostasy and how it relates to end time events since the Thessalonians had *bought the spoiled goods* that Christ had already come again. Paul states three things must happen, in order, before Jesus would come again:
-the apostasy
-the man of lawlessness to be revealed
-the man of lawlessness to present himself as God

Apostasy
The term Jesus and Paul used as the opposite of apostasy is "hold fast", for example, the seed that fell on the good soil and took root. v. 6-8 tell the Thessalonians that lawlessness is already at work, but the man of lawlessness will not be revealed until the church is no longer holding fast. Paul concludes his remarks in v. 15 admonishing the believers to stand firm and keep holding fast. Their holding fast was proof that the apostasy had not yet occured. However, when the apostasy does come, the salt that is no longer salty will be trampled. The passage is about apostasy since that comes first.

Man of Lawlessness Revealed
The man of lawlessness destroys one third of the believers. What an abominable desolation to destroy God's tabernacle! The saints are slaughtered at the second seal. It is obvious at this point who the son of destruction is.

Man of Lawlessness presents himself as God.
This son of destruction, little horn, anti-Christ is praised for destroying the believers. He is then made the mouthpiece for the confederation of ten kings, the beast of the sea. He is the mouth that blasphemes God's name and God's tabernacle, the martyred believers.
Revelation 13:6
And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

Link for translation of original text:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... ng=2&ncc=2

o antikeimenov (5740) kai uperairomenov (5746) epi panta legomenon (5746) qeon h sebasma, wste auton eiv ton naon tou qeou kaqisai, (5658) apodeiknunta (5723) eauton oti estin (5748) qeov.

I clicked on every word above and saw these meanings in the root words:
Opposes and carries one self haughtily to behave insolently towards one, against each teaching God or whatever is religiously honored, so that himself, towards these saints, these God's representatives to make sit down, to show what kind of person one is himself, that to be God's representative.

The deceived and rebellious people of the world will believe he is God's representative, God Himself, judge and ruler supreme, and they will praise him as they take his mark.

Quoting Stephen K. Amy translation in his book
Total Eclipse: Christ Returns
"who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as to seat himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God"

The word for temple can mean the temple building or the saints. Since Satan knows the temple building is not sacred, but the saints are, it makes sense that the temple the man of lawlessness will destroy will be the saints.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 7:34 pm

Now why didn't I just do this in the first place?!
:doh:

Reconcilitation View explained by Pastor Stephen K. Amy
http://expressright.com/weeks.aspx

Chart
http://members.tripod.com/~stephenamy/70wks.html

Pastor Amy has explained some this here at FP as Lambslave.
(After me, a complete stranger, kept begging him to join us!)
Please pray for good health for his wife and him also.
VERY serious, indeed!
LORD...praying once again for Your lovely servants with beautiful feet that bring the good news of Your saving grace!
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed May 27, 2009 8:00 pm

Yes, Bugs - you described perfectly the way I had been taught for years and years. The whole pre-trib thing just really left me unsettled, and when I started at this site last year, I just started over trying to see what the scriptures say. I really appreciate fellow believers coming alongside one another to learn to correctly divide the word! It is always good to see your posts and your humor! Mailman, I used to love your posts!
:lol:

Yes, I understand your position as that is what I had been taught for thirty years. Either I have been deceived or have had an increase of knowledge. Please pray for me!

"confirmed" the covenant, not strengthen the covenant.
How can a covenant of God grow any stronger than perfection?
God repeatedly confirms His covenant throughout the scriptures.

The last "seven" was cut off just as the Messiah, the Lamb of God was.
The Messiah will return to finish the 3.5 years of the "seven".
(No 7 year tribulation and no 7 year covenant in the scriptures except this passage in Daniel that I see focusing on Christ and the Salt Covenant.)

As far as the 2000 year gap...Jesus will take as long as he likes before He returns.
:grin:
When asked about the end, Jesus begins by speaking about the abomination of desolation and says nothing of a covenant. Period. Jesus warns of the abomination of desolation and He keeps telling them His plans of how He will confirm the covenant in a new covenant of his body (grain offering) and blood (drink offering).

THE covenant is the salt covenant that says the Messiah the Prince who is to come will come from the lineage of David.
Confirmed by Jesus repeatedly.
Praise God!
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby IamtheWalrus on Wed May 27, 2009 11:18 pm

OM,

Sorry, not buying it. His credibility maybe good with you, but Driver Brown and Thayers and Strong's are much more credible. Good try though. Don't have much time tonight, but will so tomorrow.

People is connected in 'am...and so is Himself....they are one...as in His People, or His nation.
That would be Christ, and the Jews. The Masoretic text evens says so.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby plalgum on Thu May 28, 2009 6:27 am

Hi walldoctor, welcome, I read your origonal post,and found it very interesting, especially at this moment in time.Here in the uk we are collectively disgusted with our political parties,its very worrying as the euro elections are near.If you follow British politics you will see revelation after revelation of swindling parliamentry members taking the walk of shame.Out of this sea of corruption there is rising a new party,the christian alliance party started by a Mr Ram Gidoomal.One of his candidates is coming to speak at my church this sunday.The thing is, such a party would have been laughed out of the water a year ago,but now people are begining to take it seriously.After what you stated about a christian type antichrist, this could be a way of it coming about.what says ye.
Last edited by plalgum on Thu May 28, 2009 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby watching on Thu May 28, 2009 8:37 am

Walrus,

I am looking forward to hearing your reply to OM because I would really like to try and understand this in the original Hebrew so as to get to the bottom of who the "prince who shall come" is referring to.

In the meantime, I just wanted to make a couple of points in dealing with the English translation. For one thing, I don't see how "the prince" could be definitively identified as the AC based on the people who actually destroyed the temple if they were in fact comprised by multiple nationalities such as Jews or Syrians in addition to Roman soldiers, as you and others have purported. (I am not familiar with the historical record, so I am going by hearsay on this.) However, if they were all under the orders of Titus, then I can see how this verse could be referring to him especially since that is how the prophecy was fulfilled in history from what I understand. (Again, I am not an expert in history.)

But, I also see your point that the entire verse, 26 may be referring to the Messiah the Prince from verse 25. Here is how the text reads with the Hebrew words inserted:
Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Mashiyach Nagiyd shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Mashiyach be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the nagiyd that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I just want to point out that I have seen it explained somewhere on the internet in a way which sort of clicked with me that went something like this:
verse 25
Mashyiach Nagiyd = AB

verse 26
Mashyiach A
nagiyd B
____________________
AB

Also, I want to give a comparable example in the English that I have come up with which has nothing to do with the meaning or context of the verses but is only for the purpose of showing how the usage of the terms could possibly be equated. Here it goes:
In seven days Her Majesty the Queen will be crowned and seated on the throne.

Then after three days Her Majesty will make a decree that there shall be no more taxes. And the people of the queen shall rejoice and cheer for her longevity.

In the example above, I think it's understood who Her Majesty and the queen are referring to.

But, just to be clear, I am not in anyway emphatic that this should be the interpretation, since I am just learning and trying to understand all of this myself. I just wanted to offer this as another way to look at it in hopes of trying to figure it out. I do not by any means have all the answers.

However, on another note, I have to agree with OBXBob in that I prefer a literal interpretation in regards to the temple unless a spiritual one is explicitly implied in the context. Besides that, it's not just the temple that is destroyed but the city as well, as OBXBob has already pointed out, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly. Let me know if I have misquoted anyone.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 am

Thanks to you, too Bob!
You said:
He can't take his seat 'in' saints.


Not true: Satan does this all the time - especially with me!
John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

In Ezekiel 8 (posted previously)Satan is sitting in the temple at the gate to the altar while the women turn their back from the altar and cry for a false god - while in the temple.

John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Thank God for His mercy!

Throughout scripture we see the leaders sit inthe gate and rule. Covenants are witnessed at the gate. Business is transacted at the gate. Satan is seated in the temple, at the gate, to the altar!
Can you look at a diagram in your Bible or online to get a visual of this?
Also, think about the ventricle to the heart as gates that allow the blood to flow in and out of the heart. It says that we will enter in one gate to worship at the altar, and then leave through the gate on the opposite wall. The blood of the Lamb of God washes us clean at that altar! Then we leave, sin, an then Satan sits at the gate to try to keep us from the altar where we can be cleansed in the blood of the Lamb of God.

The apostate church will not fight past Satan in the gate in order to get to the altar of confession! Apostates fall away from the faith, do not confess their sins, and keep Satan seated at the gate, the place where rulers judge. The is what must come first. That is why we are to hold fast to the truth. The truth is what restrain lawlessness.

We get to choose whom we will serve: God or money. The Prodigal son remained a son, even though he sinned most horribly. The prodigal's brother was right there in the Father's household serving him, yet, Satan ruled his hard heart. When the prodigal was forgiven by their Father, the other son refused to come to the Father. The older son thought it was enough to be in the Father's house, while the idol of jealousy kept him from the Father and his brother. That idol of jealously in Ezekiel 8 sits in the gate of the inner temple of our hard hearts!

On the outside, it looked like he was a great son. But Satan was seated on the throne of his will. That apostasy is the warning to the believers throughout the scriptures. When apostasy in the church becomes so widespread in the lives of the believers (Satan seated at the gate ruling the hearts and minds of believers) then the church is worthless and will be trampled.

The church is to restrain evil. Lawlessness has been at work making its seat in the church and it will get to the point when the church no longer is salt preserving truth. The salt covenant will be broken by the believers, the man of lawlessness will destroy one third of the saints, but God remains faithful to THE salt covenant that He confirmed in His own blood when He was cut off.

The blood sacrifce was given when Adam sinned. Abraham continued to worship at an altar made of stones to hold the bleeding sacrifice. But when God called out His people from Egypt to be a holy nation unto Himself, a kingdom of priests, they refused to meet with God on the mountain and cried for Moses to intercede for them. The Covenant of Salt was then instituted that required salt to be brought with every offering. A system of priests and the tabernacle was given. With Jesus as our High Priest, each believer will be made a king and a priest according to THE covenant Jesus confirmed by His blood. (Rev. 1:6. 5:10)

I am not saying anything unscriptural. Nothing I have said contradicts the word of God. Instead, what I say does not fit with what we had always been taught.

The theme is aposatsy in the opening and also in the summary statement of v. 15.
Scripture says the apostasy must come first. Apostasy is the theme in every passage we have looked. Daniel is confessing apostasy when Gabriel comes to him to say God is faithful and will confirm the covenant. Those who look back as they begin to sow seed are not fit for the kingdom. Lot's wife looked back and she became salt that had lost its slatiness and was good for nothing but to be trampled.

Luke 17:30-33
"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Remember Lot's wife.
Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.


Jesus is saying we are to remember, it is about apostasy!

Think about it:
Would Jesus talk continually about falling away and leaven if apostasy was not key?
Wouldn't Jesus have told us it was about the building if it were about the building? Yet, when the disciples asked if it was about the building, Jesus said it was about His body, the temple to be raised again in three days.

I can't see it getting any more clear than that!

Jesus said it would be like Daniel said.
Wouldn't Jesus have refered to the building projects of Nehemiah, Ezra, David, Solomon or the incredible amount of info in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if He was talking about a tabernacle/temple building?
Daniel was confessing apostasy, not building projects or worshiping in a tabernacle.
And when Daniel wrote of the abomination of desolation, our translators added the word "sacrifice" when the original says when the "continuity" is stopped. Daniel said nothing about ending sacrifices with the AOD.
Daniel wrote of the end of sacrifices as part of THE covenant which speaks of Christ's blood.
Armies are what Daniel writes about the AOD. And that is how Luke records Jesus' words too.

Am I saying anyting about the word that is not true? If so, please love me enough to rebuke me so that I will not be deceived!
Prayerfully,
Lisa
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby lambslave on Thu May 28, 2009 10:03 am

Orange mailman, Pretz, Walrus: I must intervene and say that what is being missed is the fact that the antichrist is doing things that amount to something else. Let me explain. Sometimes we say something while speaking publickly that are rediculous.It is at this moment that someone in the audience says, "he is making an a-- out of himself!" They do not really mean that the speaker has become such an animal, the term is just descriptive. I heard the other day of a salesman who was saying to some customers that were impressed with the product he was selling that he was actually the CEO of the company out in the field selling the product! He was acting in such a way to put himself in the place of the CEO, although he was not the CEO. The syntax and grammar of this verse (4) say --"...SO AS TO SEAT HIMSELF in the temple of God..." this is hoste, "so as" plus the infinitive, "to seat" "himself." You all know what an infinitive is right--to eat, to go, to stand, to fly, It is not He eats, he goes, he stands, he flys... You can bend the infinitive in that direction for ease of translation, but don't forget where you leterally came from, "so as to seat." This passage says that the antichrist does something and says something which amounts to taking the place of God! The only reason that this passage isn't translated corrected is that doctrinal prejudice won't allow it! Lambslave.

Yes, I'm a little better. But keep praying. Especially for my wife. We go for her next (4th) chemo June 5th. Then the doc will check her liver again. LS
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Thu May 28, 2009 10:05 am

Watching said:
Also, I want to give a comparable example in the English that I have come up with which has nothing to do with the meaning or context of the verses but is only for the purpose of showing how the usage of the terms could possibly be equated. Here it goes:
In seven days Her Majesty the Queen will be crowned and seated on the throne.

Then after three days Her Majesty will make a decree that there shall be no more taxes. And the people of the queen shall rejoice and cheer for her longevity.

In the example above, I think it's understood who Her Majesty and the queen are referring to.


Thank you! That explains it clearly!


According to scripture the holy city is the bride of Christ, which is the church:
Revelation 21:9b-11
Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.


Understanding the church as the holy city, gives meaning to the "great city" against her.
Otherwise, how are buildings now married to the Lamb, instead of us, his bride married to Him? Scripture says we are the temple of God, living stones, pillars, etc. What do you do with those verses when the above verses say the holy city is the bride and wife that comes down out of heaven with the Lamb just as other verses say the saints will do?
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Thu May 28, 2009 10:10 am

:hugs:
Lambslave!

Praise God you are a little better and chose to spend your energy telling me I remind you of an a** -
:bag:


"so as to seat himself as if he were God"
Does this come right after the AOD, the destroying of one third of the saints? or before?
Thanks!
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby lambslave on Thu May 28, 2009 10:29 am

Pretz, right after! LS
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 28, 2009 10:47 am

Pretzelogical wrote:
In Ezekiel 8 (posted previously)Satan is sitting in the temple at the gate to the altar while the women turn their back from the altar and cry for a false god - while in the temple.


Hello Pretzelogical,

I'm trying very hard to find a reference to satan sitting in the temple at the gate in Ezekiel 8 but have not found one.

I found 55 references to "gate" in the book of Ezekiel, but not one of them mentions satan. May I ask where you found that?
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Thu May 28, 2009 11:01 am

Bob, yes, those books reference the physical temple. That is my point. If Jesus were referencing a physical temple, he would have us look to those books. Instead, Jesus has us look to Daniel who is speaking of the AOD armies.

The apostasy comes first,
then the destruction of the saints (AOD)
and then the man of lawlessness reveals himself by acting like he is God,
and then he demands that he be worshiped like God.

(We see this same pattern when a believer is unequally yoked to a non-believer in business or marriage. The non-believer rejects God, then the damages the Christian, then the non-believer calls all the shots like they are God, and then the non-believer demands servanthood from the believer. Please don't allow this to hijack the thread any further. I just mention it because it shows how Satan never comes up with anything new. Be alert. Apostasy first.
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Re: The AntiChrists Covenant

Postby Pretzelogical on Thu May 28, 2009 11:11 am

Hi Abiding!

Idol of Jealousy
Idol worship is the same as worshiping Satan.

Ezekiel 8:3-5
...the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the idol of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy, was located.
And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the appearance which I saw in the plain.
Then He said to me, "Son of man, raise your eyes now toward the north " So I raised my eyes toward the north, and behold, to the north of the altar gate was this idol of jealousy at the entrance.


The chapter goes on and on and on about every abominable thing being worshiped by the elders of Jerusalem and the women of the temple. If that is not Satan, then what is? -and then, what would be the point of the chapter if it is not about Satan being worshiped in the house of God? This is a very straight-forward passage. Creepy as all get-out! Very easy to see it is Satan.

What is it you see there?
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