Dipping my toe into the pre-wrath water.

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Dipping my toe into the pre-wrath water.

Postby beeps on Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:09 am

I was reading the Bible and read Rev 15, where is shows those that overcame the beast, and then it goes onto pouring out Gods wrath. I must have read that a 100 times and then it hit me to delve into pre-wrath. I know and have learned alot from Jacob prasch but did not agree with the pre-wrath, as I had gone from pre-trib to post-trib. But I followed a link posted on this forum to a site that lays it all out, and to be honest it makes alot more sense.

Although I have two questions;

Explain to me the marraige supper of the lamb and bema judgements?

I thought that Jesus only came once and put his feet on the mount of olives, can you explain that?

Do we really miss the two witnesses?

:answerthequestion: 's
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Re: Dipping my toe into the pre-wrath water.

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:07 pm

I think the rapture will happen at the time the two witnesses are taken up, because that's when I see the wrath of God starting, and the purpose of the rapture is to escape God's wrath. I don't think the two witnesses will start their 42 months until shortly before the AOD, so I believe that Christians will be here for most of the 2nd half of the 70th week.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Dipping my toe into the pre-wrath water.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:46 pm

Ditto---with ya----I can be here because I'm still pre-wrath-------but "short-trib-pre-wrath" is what I call my position.

I agree completely with the timing you've suggested.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Dipping my toe into the pre-wrath water.

Postby rizen on Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:06 pm

I know and have learned alot from Jacob prasch


Me too. Jacob Prasch is pretty much "the man" in my book when it comes to Old Testament typology (and probably most everything else). Having said that, I'm not sure if Prasch falls into the "classic" pre wrath camp or one of its derivatives. I know he's very careful about what he teaches, since the Bible relates how teachers will be judged more critically than others. I respect him for that.

Do we really miss the two witnesses?


I'm personally unfamiliar with any pre-wrath position that teaches we "miss" (via resurrection/rapture) the two witnesses. I would guess the classic view supports the idea that the two witnesses are still alive at the Rapture, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this. But this does raise a good point.

Personally, I hold to the idea the two witnesses must come and complete their entire 1260 day testimony before the resurrection/rapture. That is how I read Malachi 4:5:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.


In all fairness to the classic pre-wrath position, it's possible for this verse to simply mean Elijah must arrive before the DOTL and nothing more. But if it means that he must come and complete his testimony, then we have a serious conflict of logic.

The logic issue would go something like this.

If Elijah is one of the two witnesses, then by virtue of the fact he testifies for 1260 days (Rev. 11:3), and is killed by the Satan-incarnate Antichrist (Rev. 11:7), we know for a fact that Elijah must be killed either exactly at (extremely unlikely) the midpoint of the 70th Week or after (much more likely).

We can also state that, according to Revelation 13:5, the Antichrist will continue for exactly 1260 days after he is healed of the deadly wound.

You now have a time lock situation whereby both the two witnesses and the Antichrist will be alive for exactly 1260 days.

The million dollar question then is, when do the two witnesses begin their testimony?

If the two witnesses begin their testimony at the same exact time the AOD occurs, as the classic pre-wrath view seems to teach, then this would suggest the Satan-incarnate Antichrist is literally killed the same day he kills the two witnesses (since both can only live 1260 days after their appearance). Now this seems nearly impossible in light of the fact there is a 3.5 day celebration that proceeds the death of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7). Not to mention the fact it is Christ Himself who must the Satan-incarnate Antichrist at Armageddon.

What I'm getting at is, if Elijah must come and complete his testimony before the DOTL, then the appearance of the two witnesses must precede the Abomination of Desolation (the Satan-incarnate Antichrist) if you want any logical cohesion. Therefore, if Elijah is one of the two witnesses, then he must begin his testimony before the Antichrist is healed of the deadly wound in Rev. 13:5, and finish it before the DOTL/resurrection/rapture of the church.
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Re: Dipping my toe into the pre-wrath water.

Postby rizen on Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:10 pm

I don't think the two witnesses will start their 42 months until shortly before the AOD, so I believe that Christians will be here for most of the 2nd half of the 70th week.


Or I could have just quoted extravagantchristian.
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