Seventh seal question

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Seventh seal question

Postby zephaniah on Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:07 pm

In trying to sort all this out as i am just learning this pre-wrath stuff, i came upon something that was puzzling to me. I was wondering if someone could explain it. I can see where the sixth seal shows the rapture happens cause of the reaping(rev. 14:14-16) and how it compares to matt24. I also know that at the last trumpet, we are raptured. What confuses me is Rev. 8:1-When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour 2-And I saw the seven angels who stand before God , and to them were given seven trumpets.

If we are raptured at the last trumpet and prior to the seventh seal (which if i am looking at this correctly starts God's wrath), how do we reconcile the seven trumpets beginning at the seventh seal? I would've figured that they started earlier so that the seventh trumpet would be just after the sixth seal.

Also, are these seven trumpet angels different from the seven angels having the seven last plagues(rev. 15:1,6,7)? Or don't we know? I do see where this is for sure God's wrath, it specifically states so in these verses.

Thanks for any help,
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby Arfur on Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:53 am

zephaniah wrote:In trying to sort all this out as i am just learning this pre-wrath stuff, i came upon something that was puzzling to me. I was wondering if someone could explain it. I can see where the sixth seal shows the rapture happens cause of the reaping(rev. 14:14-16) and how it compares to matt24. I also know that at the last trumpet, we are raptured. What confuses me is Rev. 8:1-When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour 2-And I saw the seven angels who stand before God , and to them were given seven trumpets.

If we are raptured at the last trumpet and prior to the seventh seal (which if i am looking at this correctly starts God's wrath), how do we reconcile the seven trumpets beginning at the seventh seal? I would've figured that they started earlier so that the seventh trumpet would be just after the sixth seal.

Also, are these seven trumpet angels different from the seven angels having the seven last plagues(rev. 15:1,6,7)? Or don't we know? I do see where this is for sure God's wrath, it specifically states so in these verses.

Thanks for any help,
zephaniah


Hi,

Trumpets lead up to the resurrection and the vials of wrath begin after the resurrection leading up to Armageddon.

The seventh trumpet is in the sixth seal itself.

It is just that simple really. Rev 8:1 is not the real beginning of ch 8.

But you are right that the seven angels of the wraths are the same as those of the trumpets and are THE seven angels of the churches mentioned in Rev.ch 1. as a far as I can see to date, but this does not mean that men are not involved in their delivery in the churches and the trumpets at least, because men are certainly involved in the delivery of the messages of the 3 angel messages of Rev.14.

(Rev 1:16 NKJV) He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

(Rev 1:20 NKJV) "The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

(Rev 2:16 NKJV) 'Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

(Rev 8:2 NKJV) And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

(Rev 15:6-8 NKJV) And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. {7} Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. {8} The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

(Rev 16:1 NKJV) Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."

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Postby zephaniah on Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:06 am

I see what you are saying about the angels. I do have one question, first off, i know that man put the chapters together and that the chapter breaks do not always go where they should. That being said, and i'm just curious, as i've said, i'm trying to sort all this out, how do we know that rev. 8:1 and 8:2 are distinctly different and that 8:2 should be the beginning of chapter 8 and not 8:1?

I have really looked at this hard since Herb's presentation Sunday and this is the only possible flaw that i've come across(so far) and i just want to be able to understand it and so that i'm not speculating.

thanks,
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Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:35 am

The way I understand it, is that the seals are Satan's wrath up until the 6th, or God allowing Satan to have control over certain things. The opening of the seventh seal is what brings about the sounding of the seven trumpets, which are God's wrath. I see the seals and trumpets as sequential and not simultaneous with each other. The trumpets cannot be sounded until the seventh seal is open. I think the interlude is simply from knowing what is about to happen on earth and for the sealing of the 144,000 and anyone else who may have repented shortly after the rapture, so that they will not be harmed.

I didn't get to hear what Herb had to say on Sunday, so I'll have to wait for the DVD. I know he differs about some things, but for a good idea of the pre-wrath take on things you might want to start with anything written by Marvin Rosenthal. http://www.zionsfire.org/

Also this site is good. http://prewrathministries.org/
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Postby zephaniah on Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:13 pm

AndCanItBe,

Do you believe then that the last trumpet is actually referring to the series of trumpets as a last trumpet? Does that make sense what i just wrote? I do see the rapture and sixth seal connection. The only confusion i am getting is if the rapture is at the last trumpet, why are there seven trumpets at the seventh seal opening. I know some things are just tough to understand in regards to prophecy, but i'd really like to get this all sorted out. I appreciate everyone's help. Thanks for the links.


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Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:29 pm

Oh, I see. I have misunderstood your question. Is it 1 Corinthians 15 that's giving you trouble?

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]


I'm not sure about that. That's a good question. Off the top of my head I'm thinking he says "we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet." Perhaps it's only the changing of our bodies that happens at the last trumpet and not the rapture? :dunno:

Again, that's just off the top of my head, I'm thinking out loud. That's a great question, zepheniah, maybe someone else has thought it through some more and has a better answer. I'd like to hear it too.
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Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:17 pm

zephaniah, you might want to check out crmann's post in this thread.

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15964
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Postby zephaniah on Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:41 pm

thanks, will do
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Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:58 pm

zephaniah, the seventh trumpet (seal) contains seven trumpets or bowls of the judgement of God's wrath. Is this what you were asking?
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Postby zephaniah on Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:20 am

yes, AndCanItBe, 1corinthians is what was giving me trouble. I just read crmann's post as you suggested and while i'd like to chew on that post for awhile, on first reading, it seemed to answer my question.

Thanks for the help.

zephaniah--

p.s. on the bright side, yesterday, i had a chance to show a pre-tribber a couple verses on why i believed in pre-wrath and they said, "interesting, i've never seen that before". I have to admit, i used to be pre-trib because that is what i was taught.

Regardless of which view ends up being correct, it pays to be a Berean and ask God to show us the scriptures as we study on our own over just being of a cattle mentality and eating what we are given from the pulpit.
Even the best intentioned pastors are people too and get things wrong.

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Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:15 pm

Regardless of which view ends up being correct, it pays to be a Berean and ask God to show us the scriptures as we study on our own over just being of a cattle mentality and eating what we are given from the pulpit.
Even the best intentioned pastors are people too and get things wrong.



:a3:
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Postby Herb on Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:34 pm

Hi Zephaniah

I thought I would join in. I see Paul's term "last trumpet" in 1 Cor. 15:52 as possibly applying to the events of all seven angels in Rev. 8: -- not necessarily just to the last. There are many confusing things about the book of Revelation and for me it's difficult to fit everything into a neat box. But, of course, I could be wrong.

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Postby zephaniah on Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:08 pm

thanks for the input, Herb. That could be as well. It would be so nice if we saw it in a neat box. I can just imagine how Daniel must've felt having so much left for him to wonder about. I suppose that is not in God's plan for us to understand everything totally. I will say, as many have said, when it's over, we'll look back and go, yep, happened exactly like God said it would. :grin:

This has been an exciting study for me in these past couple weeks. As i've said, i've had some misgivings about pre-trib(for a while now), but i've been studying other things and this is the first chance i've really had to look at things more closely. Thanks everyone for the help.

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Postby Allthingsnew on Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:40 am

I too was raised pre-trib, but after studying on my own I began to see differently. Then the more I studied the more things started fitting together. And verses I had never seen or paid any attention to just jumped out at me. Like this one:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

and how it fits perfectly with these:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And for the first time I finally feel my eyes opening. But I'm the only one to blame, for not studying the scriptures for myself. But I was never taught how to study scripture, so its not easy at first.

I found this site which helped me in studying and also how things fit together.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW.
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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:55 am

:wavewelcome: Allthingsnew!
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Postby Allthingsnew on Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:21 pm

:thankyou: And I must say that I do feel very welcome here. :blessyou:

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Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW.
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Postby ozell on Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:22 am

If we are raptured at the last trumpet and prior to the seventh seal (which if i am looking at this correctly starts God's wrath), how do we reconcile the seven trumpets beginning at the seventh seal? I would've figured that they started earlier so that the seventh trumpet would be just after the sixth seal.

Also, are these seven trumpet angels different from the seven angels having the seven last plagues(rev. 15:1,6,7)? Or don't we know? I do see where this is for sure God's wrath, it specifically states so in these verses
.


Hi Zephaniah

The 1st 5 seals are about the anti-chist and the great tribulation.
This is the begining of the great tribulation and this is the AC rule

The 6th seals means the great tribulation is over and is the sign of the coming of Jesus.
The heavens are rolled back we are looking @ The Father and Jesus
The sun, moon and stars are put out.

The seventh seal starts the trumpets blowing which inturn a vials will be poured out this is the wrath of Jesus.

when we get to the 7th trump this is the coming of Jesus, which brings the resurrection of the dead. This is the end of man's rule of the earth. This is when Jesus sets up his kingdom.

Keep in mind that we have no sun, we have no moon or stars. We as man have no concept of time when the 6th seals is opened. This happens in a day (the day of the Lord) Jesus time to take this earth and setup his Kingdom. Sit here at my right hand until I make thy enemies thy footstool. (the day of the Lord)

Suggestion,

take the 7 trumpets write them down, underneath the trumpets write down the pouring of the vials. you will get the uderstanding.

Take the 7 seals write them down separetely you will see they are not God's wrath per say, but this is the AC time to rule(great tribulation).

I hope this helps

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Postby Zorro on Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:07 pm

If we are raptured at the last trumpet and prior to the seventh seal (which if i am looking at this correctly starts God's wrath),


I think the assumption that rapture happens prior to the 7th seal is incorrect. The 7th seal is in fact the 7 trumpets (all 7 together). In other words, the events for the 7th seal is broken down for us into 7 steps (and the last trumpet is broken down further with the veals).

I agree with ozell's observation that:
The 6th seals means the great tribulation is over and is the sign of the coming of Jesus.


But I like to add that the sun, moon and stars may not be literally "put out". From the description of the events of the 7th seal:

Rev 6:12 And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.



One event that can explain what is happening is a giant vulcanic explosion where great amount of magna is flung high in the atmosphere and falls back down to earth. A vulcanic eruption can explain the 6th seal:


1. earth quakes accompanies vulcanic erruptions
2. The ash cloud of a giant eruption will darken the sky over a large area
3. the fire accompanying an erruption may look like stars falling from the sky
4. the movement of the ash cloud billows upward, like a scroll (I've seen the eruption of St. Helen..)
5. mountain and island are moved out of place by the earth quake

A giant vulcanic erruption also expalins the first effect of the 7th seal:

Rev 8:7 ..there followed hail and fire mixed with blood...


When a large amount of lave is flung into the atmosphere and don't have enough time to cool before they fall back to earth, it's like raining fire. The fire is usually mixed with hail because there is a large amount of liquid in the hot gasses that gets blow up into the higher atmosphere and turns to hail when cooled.

It may even explain the 2nd trumpet:

Rev 8:8 ..a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea.


The top of the vulcano got blown up in the sky and fell back into the sea.

We have at least one candidate vulcano that can do this: Yellow Stone !

Check this out:

http://www.earthmountainview.com/yellowstone/yellowstone.htm

---
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Hey

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:09 pm

According to Prewrath since this is the prewrath thread...

The trumpets follow the seals.
The seals basically represent the tribulation period with Jesus coming at the 6th seal.
7th seal
The trumpets and vials represent the wrath of God and begin after Jesus has come.
Prewrath does not believe the "last trump" corresponds to the trumpets blown by angels in Revelation.
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Postby davis5454 on Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:16 pm

All, i've not updated my site in some time...but in light of the questions being asked here, i've posted a study i've been doing on the site.

I have a powerpoint version and a adobe pdf version listed.

I have not finished the study and it's very very rough...but I hope someone can get some use out of it.

I think the seals = the angeles and the trumpets = the bowls.

I've also heard it said that "last trump" has to do with one of the feast of Israel which would be unfamiliar to us who are not of jewish faith.

Brian

Powerpoint - http://home.comcast.net/~timeswatch/Bib ... fo/rev.ppt

PDF - http://home.comcast.net/~timeswatch/Bib ... fo/rev.pdf
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby rizen on Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:44 pm

I also know that at the last trumpet, we are raptured. What confuses me is Rev. 8:1-When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour 2-And I saw the seven angels who stand before God , and to them were given seven trumpets.

If we are raptured at the last trumpet and prior to the seventh seal (which if i am looking at this correctly starts God's wrath), how do we reconcile the seven trumpets beginning at the seventh seal? I would've figured that they started earlier so that the seventh trumpet would be just after the sixth seal.


The "half hour silence" in heaven immediately before God's wrath is poured out is one of the most mystifying verses in all the Bible.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:1-5)

Personally, I hold to a modified pre-wrath view that sees the seals and trumpets being opened and sounded concurrently (though not exactly concurrent), but before all seven of the bowl judgments. So you have been forewarned...

One of the reasons I hold to this view is because of the dilemma you outline regarding the unlikelihood the seventh seal being opened before the seventh trumpet is sounded. This dilemma is even further compounded when you arrive at Rev. 8:1-5, which seems to strongly intimate that the seventh trumpet has actually been sounded inside the sixth seal (which I am convinced it does).

This half hour silence that appears to chronologically distinguish how the seven seals are opened occur before the seven trumpets are sounded can be easily dismissed once you realize the sixth trumpet in Rev. 9:13 is actually the 3rd woe, and not the 2nd as it would seemingly appear.

You see, we are told what the 1st and 2nd woes are in Rev. 9:12 and Rev. 11:14, respectively. But we are never told what the third woe is. Now it would seem that, since the sounding of the 5th trumpet concludes with the 1st woe, the sounding of the sixth trumpet would conclude with the 2nd woe. But there are extremely peculiar things happening when the sixth trumpet is sounded:

1) A "voice" from the four horns of the altar of God is heard. (God's voice?)
2) There are four angels to be loosed from Euphrates (Note: Rev. 7:2 relates how four angels with 1st four trumpets are told to wait until 144,000 are sealed before sounding [no, the four angels with 1st four trumpets are not the same four angels related in Rev. 9:14, but there are four angels just the same.])
3) John "heard" the number of the 200,000,000 horsemen in Rev. 9:16. (Note how John also "heard" the number of the 144,000 in Rev. 7:4)
4) The four angels that will slay one-third of mankind were "prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year." (Day of the Lord?)

If you consider each of these factors carefully, you might notice that it is really God who sends the angel with the sixth trumpet to unleash the four angels and their 200,000,000 horsmen (that "only" God could number) army to slay the third of mankind. You might also notice that after the sounding of the sixth trumpet, God's wrath is about to begin.

What you might not notice, however, is that Jesus intervenes with the seventh trumpet before the four angels are unleashed in the exact way He intervened when the 144,000 were "sealed" in Rev. 7:1-3. Only instead of "sealing" people, the four angels that hold back the four winds of the earth will "gather" people (the dead will rise first). This gathering that takes place in Matthew 24:31 (at the sound of the seventh trumpet) results in the resurrection/rapture of the church John witnessed in Rev. 7:9

The exact "half hour of silence" that occured between the sealing of the 144,000 and the sounding of the first four trumpets in Rev. 7:1-4, will occur again between sounding of the 7th trumpet (resurrection/rapture inside sixth seal) and the unleashing of the four angels and the 200,000,000 horsemen after the sixth trumpet is blown in Rev. 9. The seventh trumpet intervention by Christ is the resurrection/rapture of the church.

Therefore, while it seems that there is only one single half-hour silence in Rev. 7, there are actually two one-half hour silences that occur in Rev. 7. One before the 144,000 are sealed in Rev. 7:4, and one before the "great multitude" that no man could number are seen before the throne of God.

The first one-half hour silence occurs before the 3rd seal is opened (before the 4th seal midpoint). The second one-half hour silence occurs after the seventh trumpet sounds (resurrection/rapture) and the sixth trumpet judgment is unleashed in Rev. 9:17-21, which I'm certain includes the mother of all earthquakes (as opposed to the "great earthquake" after the sixth seal is opened) and the destruction of Mystery Babylon, and perhaps includes a pre-Armageddon Gog-Magog destruction that results in Israel being unblinded to Yeshua Ben Joseph.

The great earthquake that follows the opening of the sixth seal corresponds to the "great earthquake" that relates the 2nd woe in Rev. 11:13.

The Mother of all earthquakes in which every mountain and island were moved out of their place at Rev. 6:14 is the resurrection/rapture. This occurs immediately before the third woe is unleashed:

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(Rev. 11:14)

Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
(Rev. 22:7)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(Rev. 22:12)

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
(Rev. 22:20)
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby slick on Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:32 am

Hello Group,

Please permit me to throw the proverbial "Wrench" into the works, by offering a different perspective. A common error when attempting to resolve the time line based on ,SEALS, TRUMPETS, & VIALS exists when making the wrong scriptural comparisons.

Lets look at the language in reference to the Trumpets in the Classic Rapture Passages. Starting in the Olivet Discourse

Matthew 24: 31

"AND HE (GOD THE FATHER) WILL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT TRUMPET AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS (GOD THE FATHERS) ELECT FROM (OUT OF THE REACH) THE FOUR WINDS FROM ONE END OF THE SKY TO THE OTHER."

note the angels are commissioned to carry the GREAT TRUMPET, but we dont absolutely see them blowing it. next lets look at,

I Corinthians 15:52

"IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET; FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD (IN CHRIST) WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE, AND WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED."

here we see again the "Resurrection /Rapture" occurring in association with a Trumpet this time it is sounded and an event takes place I.E. the "RAPTURE / RESURRECTION" but we still can not identify the sounder of the trumpet. what we do see in this passage is that it will be "THE LAST TRUMPET". this is where the confusion is most commonly occurs, a perhaps miss-comparison with the 7th seal trumpets is errantly made.

the final new testament passage we will look at is:

I Thessalonians 4:16

"FOR THE LORD (JESUS CHRIST) HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE (NOT TRUMPET) OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD; AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST."

this passage as can be clearly seen as in reference to the same time table as the above passages but we learn some further information.

Who, has the trumpet? and once again this is seen to be a uniquely special "TRUMPET OF GOD"

in these last three scripture comparatives we see, the description of the trumpet as being:

1. A GREAT TRUMPET

2.THE LAST TRUMPET

3.THE TRUMPET OF GOD

these three adjectives would seem to indicate that there is a significant difference between this particular trumpet and those mentioned in general through out scripture. the question then for us who are "BEREANS" is to discover if possible what "trumpet" if any is in view.

Keep in mind the above passages, we see the unique trumpet being carried by Angels, associated with Christs Return, and belonging to GOD the father.

All of the above texts would seem to indicate that the "trumpets" (Rev. 8) note plural, do not line up with "the trumpet" singular. the Revelation Trumpets are Carried, blown, and handled by Angels, they bring about judgment, woes,etc, and dont seem to imply rescue or resurrection.

Lets look at an Old Testament parallel to the above references;

Zechariah 9:14

"THEN THE LORD (JESUS CHRIST) WILL APPEAR OVER (IN THE CLOUDS OR AIR)THEM. AND HIS ARROW WILL GO FORTH LIKE LIGHTNING (MT 24:27), AND THE LORD GOD (THE FATHER) WILL BLOW THE TRUMPET,AND WILL MARCH IN THE STORM WINDS OF THE SOUTH."

this is the final key as to the identification of "THE TRUMPET" and why it is significant.Here we learn that The Trumpet is UNIQUE because not only does it belong to GOD it is BLOWN by him as well and is associated with the reclamation of the Earth by HIS SON which initiates "THE DAY OF THE LORD/GODS WRATH". However a mystery yet remains, Why does GOD himself have to blow the trumpet? Generally his missions are carried out by Angels, or human agents, or His Son Jesus.

I will attempt to show an explanation for this in a soon coming post, but for now I hope you can at least see that the comparison of the "trumpet" IN THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION passages, may not line up with the Trumpets of Judgments as seen in Revelation.

GOD-BLESS,

IF YOU CARE, SHARE!
MATTHEW 28:18-20

Clarence
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby Ready1 on Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:10 am

I will attempt to show an explanation for this in a soon coming post, but for now I hope you can at least see that the comparison of the "trumpet" IN THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION passages, may not line up with the Trumpets of Judgments as seen in Revelation.


Clarence, you are starting to sound like a pretribber... :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby slick on Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:11 pm

Ready1 wrote:
I will attempt to show an explanation for this in a soon coming post, but for now I hope you can at least see that the comparison of the "trumpet" IN THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION passages, may not line up with the Trumpets of Judgments as seen in Revelation.


Clarence, you are starting to sound like a pretribber... :grin: :grin: :grin:


Been there done with that!!! :lol:

GOD-BLESS,

IF YOU CARE, SHARE!
MATTHEW 28:18-20

Clarence
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby rizen on Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:34 pm

Hi slick,

You write:

this is where the confusion is most commonly occurs, a perhaps miss-comparison with the 7th seal trumpets is errantly made.


Am I correct in assuming you believe the all seven trumpets are blown inside the seventh seal. Is that what you mean by "7th seal trumpets"?

All of the above texts would seem to indicate that the "trumpets" (Rev. 8) note plural, do not line up with "the trumpet" singular. the Revelation Trumpets are Carried, blown, and handled by Angels, they bring about judgment, woes,etc, and dont seem to imply rescue or resurrection.


The seventh trumpet certainly seems to imply rescue:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

I will attempt to show an explanation for this in a soon coming post, but for now I hope you can at least see that the comparison of the "trumpet" IN THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION passages, may not line up with the Trumpets of Judgments as seen in Revelation.


Did you post this somewhere else?
rizen
 
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby slick on Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:11 am

rizen wrote:Hi slick,

You write:

this is where the confusion is most commonly occurs, a perhaps miss-comparison with the 7th seal trumpets is errantly made.


Am I correct in assuming you believe the all seven trumpets are blown inside the seventh seal. Is that what you mean by "7th seal trumpets"?

Hello Rizen,

If I understand your question correctly,I believe the opening of the 7th seal brings about the initiation of The Day Of The Lord which begins with the sounding of the 1st Trumpet.The seals are no longer valid as they were the prerequisites for authority to receive whats in the scroll, namely the "TITLE DEED" to rulership of the Earth.

Though I dont agree totally with all the tenets of dispensational teaching, I do think there is an element of truth, and the opening of all the seals is a changing of dispensations if you will, from the dominion of MAN to the dominion of GOD.


All of the above texts would seem to indicate that the "trumpets" (Rev. 8) note plural, do not line up with "the trumpet" singular. the Revelation Trumpets are Carried, blown, and handled by Angels, they bring about judgment, woes,etc, and dont seem to imply rescue or resurrection.


The seventh trumpet certainly seems to imply rescue:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

Hello Rizen,

This statement taken with my response above is further indication of what I am saying to be true.
I believe that scripture shows two aspects of GODS WRATH or commonly Known as "THE DAY OF THE LORD" initiated by the "TRUMPET" judgments and culminating with the BOWLS. Men and particularly the BEAST still has some rebellious authority at the time of the first Trumpet blast but his authority begins to WANE quickly as the progression continues and the judgments increase.

Remember we see the great multitude, in Rev 7 before the blowing of the 1st trumpet. so who would be there for rescue at the blowing of the 7th trumpet? the only "BELIEVERS" would be the sealed JEWS (144000) and they are divinely protected in some other manner (hiding at AZEL Zech 14:5), so what is the implication of the saving or rescue seen in the above quote? THE KINGDOMS OF MAN HAVE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF GOD!


I will attempt to show an explanation for this in a soon coming post, but for now I hope you can at least see that the comparison of the "trumpet" IN THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION passages, may not line up with the Trumpets of Judgments as seen in Revelation.


Did you post this somewhere else?


Hello Rizen,

I never got to it :(

GOD BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!

Clarence
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Re: Seventh seal question

Postby rizen on Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:42 am

1) A "voice" from the four horns of the altar of God is heard. (God's voice?)
2) There are four angels to be loosed from Euphrates (Note: Rev. 7:2 relates how four angels with 1st four trumpets are told to wait until 144,000 are sealed before sounding [no, the four angels with 1st four trumpets are not the same four angels related in Rev. 9:14, but there are four angels just the same.])


The four horns of the golden altar are defined in Zechariah 1:18-19 as:

Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the four horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. (Zech. 1:18-19)

If the four horns represent powers that have scattered Israel, then this "voice" that John hears must be that of the Antichrist. The question that presents itself is, what does the voice say? The fact that four angels are loosed from the Euphrates as a result of this voice would also seem to suggest that it is the Antichrist who provokes these four angels.

Interestingly, in Zechariah 1:20-21, Zechariah is shown "four carpenters". Do these four angels released from the Euphrates in Rev. 9:14-15 have any connection to the four carpenters related in Zech. 1:20-21? If they do, then it would seem that these four angels from the Euphrates are good guys since Zechariah says:

And the LORD shewed me four carpenters. Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it. (Zechariah 1:20-21)

It seems as if the "voice" that John hears from one of the four horns of the golden altar is what Ezekiel relates in Eze. 38:11-12:

And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. (Ezekiel 38:11-12)

Here is a picture of the Antichrist declaring his desire to spoil and prey upon "the people that are gathered out of the nations." This would appear to be Israel. While it would seem that the "voice" John hears would be the same entity that has control over the four angels of the Euphrates, I don't think that is the case here. This voice John hears is the Antichrist provoking God to act. The four angels, then, are the expression of God's provocation. First the "voice" of Antichrist, then God ominously releasing the four angels from Euphrates. If these four angels represent the four carpenters of Zech. 1, then obviously their intent is to prevent the Antichrist from scattering Judah.

By virtue of the fact Rev. 9:15 relates how these four angels were prepared for a day, and a month, and a year, to slay the third part of men, I have little doubt this is an allusion to the Day of the Lord, when the blindness of Israel will be lifted when they see their Messiah descend with a shout.

The question now is, who are these two-hundred million horsemen in Rev. 9:16?
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