Pre-wrath Timing?

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Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby lgforan on Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:03 am

I have been struggling with the pre-wrath and pre-trib issue. Before I begin please understand that I do not consider a belief in either as a critical "salvation" issue. I simply turst Jesus to do what he wants, when he wants. So, here is my question:

Mark 13:32 -33 states:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

My question is - If we read Revelation from a cronological view would we not be able to determine the date of the rapture - or at least narrow it down to a few days based on the sequence of the opening of the seals, bowls and definetly from the 3 1/2 year mark?
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Postby heavenlycreation on Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:13 am

Yeah :answerthequestion:
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day and hour

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:12 pm

It is true that not only from the description of 1,260 days in Rev. but also the use of 1,290 and 1,335 days in daniel that one might be able to narrow down the time of Christ's second coming to a certain month or year. This might be calcualted more accurately when the time of the setting up of the AOD is determined.

But do any of the time periods end exactly on the day of Christ's return? israel will be protected for 1,260 days but scripture does not state that that protection will end exactly on the day of the second coming. The Ac has power for 42 months but the exact day when that 42 months ends is not given, it could vary by a few days. The exact ending of the 1,290 and 1,335 days in daniel is even more obscure.

which means even if we did know the exact time of the setting up of the AOD, we still would have only an approximate date of Christ's return. We still would not know the exact day of the second coming and the rapture.

which is what i believe Jesus is saying by using the specific term of not knowing the day or the hour. He does not say you will not know the month, the year or the season of His return. On the contrary, by giving us specific time periods in scripture between events He is giving us the specific time period to be looking for His return. if the month or year could not be known why place in scripture specific time periods between significant events?

I believe these specific times are given as reassurance to those who are still here that God is right on schedule. But he may not reveal the exact time, the exact day that this occurs, for it is to His glory to conceal a matter. (Prov. 25:2) To say this passage in Mark states that we will have no idea of the approximate time of Christ's return is to read into this passage something that is not there, IMHO.
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:40 pm

Igforan... :wavewelcome:
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Postby Be still on Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:41 pm

:wavewelcome: lgforan
YSIC, Karen
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby perigrini on Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:03 pm

lgforan wrote:So, here is my question:

Mark 13:32 -33 states:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

My question is - If we read Revelation from a cronological view would we not be able to determine the date of the rapture - or at least narrow it down to a few days based on the sequence of the opening of the seals, bowls and definetly from the 3 1/2 year mark?


Several points.
Firstly, are you certain Revelation is strictly chronological?

Secondly, is there any scripture that suggests we can't "narrow it down" to a window? The scripture you cited above specifically states day or hour. Some might argue that doesn't preclude narrowing down to say a month or week.

Thirdly, and this is my personal answer to your question...no, the prewrath view does not narrow down to a date or a few days. An observant person would note that every date setting that has been posted on this website has been by pretribbers...and, of course, they've been wrong every time.

The prewrath view places the rapture at some unknown point after the AOD (which is in the middle of the 70th week). This is what Jesus told us...

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

Jesus tells us His return is "immediately" after the tribulation of those days. So what tribulation is He talking about?...

15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
....
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matthew 24:15,21

Jesus clearly states the "great tribulation" begins AFTER the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke of.

Daniel indicated the AOD is in the middle of the 70th week.

So if we take what Jesus teaches us we learn that the great tribulation is not the entirety of the 70th week as the pretrib doctrine falsely teaches but is a period that begins AFTER the middle of the 70th week.

Now we have the information to address your question about narrowing down the rapture to a few days...
Tell me, how long is the great tribulation? 1 day? 10 days, 100 days? 200 days? We simply don't know. All scripture tells us is...

22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matthew 24:22

That is, what we learn is that the great tribulation will be cut short. Do you know how much it will be cut short? Neither do I.

So we neither know how long the great tribulation is, nor do we know how much it will be cut short. So it becomes clear that the answer to your question, then, is that the prewrath view does in no way place the rapture within a few day window. But we can rest assured, it'll happen precicely when the Lord has placed it...at some point in the 2nd half of the 70th week, after the great tribulation is cut short...whenever that is.

Blessings,

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Postby perigrini on Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:06 pm

heavenlycreation wrote:Yeah :answerthequestion:

Rather impatient for an answer? Your post was 10 minutes after the initial OP.


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Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:56 am

There is a theory I have heard about Rosh Hashannah. The Jews apparently very frequently referred to it as the holiday where "no one knows the day or the hour", because you had to send out two witnesses and watch for the phase of the moon to know exactly what time Rosh Hashannah or the New Year would begin. When Jesus said that phrase, according to this theory, the disciples would have immediately thought of Rosh Hashannah. They celebrate Rosh Hashannah for two days because no one can be sure when the moon will come out in the correct phase each year and they don't want to miss it. In other words "no one knows the day and the hour" only the Father. I don't know if I believe it myself, but it certainly is an interesting thought. Jesus may have simply meant He wouldn't know the exact moment that the moon would be in the right phase either. I don't know all of the details of this feast but as I understand it, in Biblical times it could be delayed up to two weeks if the barley harvest wasn't ready. There are so many parrellels it's kind of shocking and it could be a possible explaination of those verses in Matthew.


Disclaimer: I'm not attempting to date-set. You can't have any certainty about what year this would happen in. Even if you go from the AOD, we know the days will be cut short so at that point we might have one of three Rosh Hashannah's to pick from or not....because it's just a theory that I have heard. I have heard another theory on the board about the signifigance of Rosh Hashannah that focuses mostly on it being the head of the new year and is entirely different and equally intriguing. :grin:
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Postby heavenlycreation on Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:16 am

Sorry, I didn't notice, and wasn't trying to be rude. I was actually wondering the same thing myself. :a2:
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Postby perigrini on Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:50 am

heavenlycreation wrote:Sorry, I didn't notice, and wasn't trying to be rude. I was actually wondering the same thing myself. :a2:

I assumed that was the case:)


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Postby perigrini on Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:56 am

AndCanItBe wrote:There is a theory I have heard about Rosh Hashannah. The Jews apparently very frequently referred to it as the holiday where "no one knows the day or the hour", because you had to send out two witnesses and watch for the phase of the moon to know exactly what time Rosh Hashannah or the New Year would begin. When Jesus said that phrase, according to this theory, the disciples would have immediately thought of Rosh Hashannah. They celebrate Rosh Hashannah for two days because no one can be sure when the moon will come out in the correct phase each year and they don't want to miss it. In other words "no one knows the day and the hour" only the Father. I don't know if I believe it myself, but it certainly is an interesting thought. Jesus may have simply meant He wouldn't know the exact moment that the moon would be in the right phase either. I don't know all of the details of this feast but as I understand it, in Biblical times it could be delayed up to two weeks if the barley harvest wasn't ready. There are so many parrellels it's kind of shocking and it could be a possible explaination of those verses in Matthew.


Disclaimer: I'm not attempting to date-set. You can't have any certainty about what year this would happen in. Even if you go from the AOD, we know the days will be cut short so at that point we might have one of three Rosh Hashannah's to pick from or not....because it's just a theory that I have heard. I have heard another theory on the board about the signifigance of Rosh Hashannah that focuses mostly on it being the head of the new year and is entirely different and equally intriguing. :grin:

I've seen that suggested. Maybe it'll prove to be an accurate guess. All we really have to go by is that it's in the 2nd half of the 70th week, after the end of the great tribulation, which will be cut short.

If that happens to fall on Rosh Hashannah, which might be one of 2 or 3 days that might be so. Technically speaking, a 2 or 3 day window does not violate the "day or hour" scripture noted in the OP.

Personally, I just stick with what we do specifically know from scripture and stay away from speculation as much as is possible (even if that speculation may turn out accurate or not in the end).

Blessings,

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Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:40 pm

Personally, I just stick with what we do specifically know from scripture and stay away from speculation as much as is possible (even if that speculation may turn out accurate or not in the end).


That's certainly always a wise thing to do. :grin:
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:10 pm

Peri posted:

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.


You said, His return is immediately after the tribulation of those days. It doesn't say that. It states the condition of the earth because of the heavens being shaken, and that this will immediately follow the tribulation of those days. It then says, 'and then the sign of the Son of man will appear in the sky'.....

There could definately be a gap between these events. Jesus could be giving us an overview of chronilogical events. The bible does this kind of thing quite often where at first it may appear the events follow instantly behind one another, there may be a good bit of time that lapses between them. This is the way that I see it.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby perigrini on Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:20 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Peri posted:

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.


You said, His return is immediately after the tribulation of those days. It doesn't say that. It states the condition of the earth because of the heavens being shaken, and that this will immediately follow the tribulation of those days. It then says, 'and then the sign of the Son of man will appear in the sky'.....

There could definately be a gap between these events. Jesus could be giving us an overview of chronilogical events. The bible does this kind of thing quite often where at first it may appear the events follow instantly behind one another, there may be a good bit of time that lapses between them. This is the way that I see it.

LOL...did you look at "my" quote you're arguing with? Those aren't my words, those are Jesus' (Matthew 24:29-30).
You can assume some sort of gap if you wish...I'm taking Jesus at what he said, and He said "immediately".

Blessings,

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Postby grace2all on Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:19 am

Hi everyone!

Just a friendly reminder to everyone who visits this forum. This is a brand new protected forum for the Pre-wrath view.

Please no opposing arguments.

Thanks everyone! :grin:

Aloha,
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Postby sacredcowbasher on Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:47 pm

Sorry I'm late in getting back, I work on Saturday.

Also sorry if I came across as opposing the pre-wrath view. I think the bible tells us we will be here through the tribulation period.

I was pointing out that the 'and then' at the beginning of verse 30 in Matt 24 indicates a lapse of time between the 'heavenly signs' and Jesus' return.

I have a lot to learn about these things: time lines, whether or not its all chronilogical or not. After reading through Matt 24 it seems like there could be some redundancy in His statements.

I believe in Genesis there was an actual six days of creation and not any time lapse in between days. With what Jesus says that will happen in the last days, 'the beginning of sorrows' seems to be a time which starts with WW1, and you have earthguakes, famines etc. with much time in between events.
As we draw to the close of man's alloted time it would make sense to speed up. That is what seems like what is happening now.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Postby L_Daily on Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:23 pm

Mark 13:32 -33 states: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."


Igforan,
Here's another point to look at in this verse. Most of the time I see these verses quoted it's always about "no one knows the day or the hour" part of the verse. Usually quoted by the pretribbers. But there's another point in this verse I want to show you. "Take ye heed, WATCH and pray". According to the pretrib imminent rapture theory, I could be going to my car, get in the car, and before I started the engine - POOF! ... I'm raptured. Well, what was I watching for? There's nothing to WATCH for!! Why would Jesus tell us to watch for something when it will happen unexpectedly and without warning, according to the pretrib imminent rapture theory?

And yes, Perigrini, this is what I believe too.
That is, what we learn is that the great tribulation will be cut short. Do you know how much it will be cut short? Neither do I. So we neither know how long the great tribulation is, nor do we know how much it will be cut short.
We won't know the day or hour because those days will be cut short. But I believe we will definately know the season.

YBIC
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Postby perigrini on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:21 pm

L_Daily wrote:We won't know the day or hour because those days will be cut short. But I believe we will definately know the season.

YBIC
LD

I'm with you on this one.

Blessings,

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Postby crmann on Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:03 pm

Greetings All,

I would like to elaborate on AndCanItBe's Post of Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:56 am, and also on Mark 13:32 -33.

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

The 7th Trumpet

The last trumpet, which, I believe, is blown immediately just before the vials of wrath are poured out upon the evil generation, is a call for the first resurrection to take place.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Let’s consider the last trumpet. I think it is interesting that the deciples never questioned Jesus on this comment in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Evidently they knew what Jesus was referring to. From my studies, it seems that Jesus was using a figure of speech when he spoke of the trumpet in Matthew 24. We must never forget that the Bible is a Jewish manuscript, written by Jews. In a way this seems to have concealed the truth for most of us since Jesus was using a Jewish term that refers to one of the Jewish holy days, Rosh Hashanah (the head of the year).

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:52, where he spoke about the "last trump", the Book of Revelation had not yet been written.  So, neither Paul, nor his audience, would have known of the "last trump" later written about in Revelation.  It is far more likely that Paul did know what he was talking about (he certainly wrote as if he did), and it is far more likely that his audience would be able to understand what he was talking about (he wrote as if they could).  So, what would his audience have assumed Paul was talking about?  Well, there is a "Feast of Trumpets", known as Rosh Hashanna.  So, "last trump" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 most likely refers to this feast of trumpets.

Earlier in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul spoke of "firstfruits".  This also refers to another Feast of the Lord, the "Feast of Firstfruits".  Jesus was raised from the dead on the Feast of Firstfruits, so it shouldn’t be difficult to understand what Paul was talking about when he wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

In Chapter 15, Paul is making a comparison between Christ's resurrection and our resurrection.  That if Christ is not raised, then our hope is in vain.  What is our hope?  The resurrection!   Just as Christ was raised and became the "first fruits", so too will we be raised "at the last trump".  If the first reference, "firstfruits", is to a Feast of the Lord, then doesn't it stand to reason that the second reference, "the last trump" is also a reference to a Feast of the Lord?  I would think so, and so do millions of other Christians who have studied about Rosh Hashanna who call it the Feast of Trumpts.

Rosh Hashanah, or the feast of Trumpets, was the start of the civil year and it could only begin by two witnesses of the Sanhedrin observing the new moon in the sky. The only ones who knew then, were the two witnesses and the Father. No one could know by any kind of mathematical reconing, but only by observance. This, then, became a term used for this day, a day known as “no one knows the day or hour” for this reason.

The proclamation of Rosh Hashanah could only occur once the Sanhedrin received word from the witnesses, since only they could make the legal call as to when to begin the New Year. Jesus is reaffirming the belief held by the Jews that the Messiah would come on Rosh Hashanah to establish his kingdom.

Even if it were not a figure of speech, hypothetically speaking, it could still be argued that the word for “knows” is in the present tense. This would therefore make it a temporary “not knowing,” since obviously Jesus, who is in heaven, now knows; and as the signs are being fulfilled, the time of a generation or the days of Daniel can be calculated. Another argument put forward is that the word for “know” is the Greek word oida, which is different from the word ginosko. The word Giknosko is knowledge by learning whereas oida is an intuitive knowledge. Therefore it would be “no one can intuitively know,” which would leave the door open to gaining the knowledge by learning. This may be hair splitting, but wanted to bring it to your attention. The real issue is the traditional understanding of Matthew 24:36.

This is similar then, with the Apostle Paul, when he discusses the mystery of being caught up in the air, in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, where he uses the term “the last trump”. To most of the Gentles it probably had no meaning, but to the first century Jew, it pinpoints a specific day. That day is Rosh Hashanah. The first trump represents the giving of the Laws in the wilderness by Moses; the second or last trump gives the announcement of the New Year. The theme of Rosh Hashanah is the resurrection as well. Paul understands all of this, and that is what he is saying, that the second resurrection, will occur on Rosh Hashanah.

It must be remembered that when Jesus was speaking of Rosh Hashanah, he was directly referring to his earthly return in Power and glory.

The only other time that Jesus seems to say that no one can know, outside of the Olive Discourse, is at his ascension to heaven, forty days after his resurrection, is in the book of Acts, chapter one.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, “Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” And He said unto them, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the father has put in His own power. But you will receive power after the Holy spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:6-8

Here his followers ask him if at this time he will restore the Kingdom of Israel. Jesus says it is not for them to know because the issue at hand concerns the coming of the Holy Spirit with the establishment of the Church at Pentecost. Israel was not going to be restored at this time. However, Jesus leaves the door open when he says that the seasons are in the Father’s power and that they will receive similar power when the Spirit comes upon them. To know the times or season is of the power of God, but now we have that power dwelling within us. Therefore, by the power of the Spirit it is possible to know the times and seasons when we see the signs.

Daniel was given a length of days, but he was to seal it up until the end times, when people’s minds would be opened to understanding. It frustrated Daniel, but he was far removed from the time in which we now live. The Bible then, does reveal information concerning the time, but it is through the Holy Spirit that the truths of the bible can be put together, especially as the events unfold. A careful examination of the scriptures finds nothing prohibiting us to look or watch for the time. It fact, it commands us to watch. My question is: How can one watch, if one cannot possibly know? With the signs that have been seen to occur numerous times in the twentieth century, it would seem conceivable that we have come to that time where it is possible to know that which was sealed by Daniel.

In the end, it is quite interesting that the same problem or issue was debated before the birth of Christ. The Rabbis did not want dates suggested since it would dash the hopes of the people if nothing happened. It seems that they were successful in that relatively few seemed to be anticipating the birth of Jesus. The few we know of were Simeon and Anna, and the wise men (the Magi) who had traveled from the east. The “wise men” apparently had figured something out for them to walk on faith for two years and all those many miles to Bethlehem. Yet, few dare to venture and say why or how planetary alignments or a supernova could communicate the revelation of God. Of course this is another topic of study.

So the real concern is to watch and not fear the wrath of God for meditating on the possibilities, but rather to fear him for not watching. If history is an indicator, the battle over the the idea of watching or anticipating will probably be lost to those who are too busy enjoying their earthly lives. This is probably the real reason why the doctrine of “you can’t know” is so popular even though “can’t” is not in the text of the Bible. It is interesting that somehow this misunderstanding eliminates the responsibility of watching and looking for the return of our Lord. The truth is, God has said that those he finds watching when Christ returns will be blessed.


“Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.” Luke 12:37 (Would anyone know when this would be?)

So the real question is, can we afford to miss it and be caught being concerned about other things? This passage in Luke deals very specifically with those at the end of the tribulation, and the need for watching. We should be like the wise men in knowing the signs of the times?

Please note, that I have not been speaking of the Great Tribulation, which I believe begins immediately after the last trumpet is blown, unless my research further confuses me.

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Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:38 pm

Thanks for posting about the Rosh Hashanna connection with the rapture. I've heard it spoken of but didn't know about it.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Postby OBXBob on Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:49 pm

Cleveland,

Thanks for that excellent post!!!!

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Zorro on Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:53 am

I think the timing of the rapture and the return of Jesus will coincide. So when we know the time of the second return, we will also know the time of the rapture. It is an unknown fact that Sir. Isaac Newton had spent more time studying bible prophecy than law of gravity and he gave a very interesting interpretation of Daniel 9 that is related to the timing of Jesus' return. His book "OBSERVATIONS upon the PROPHECIES of DANIEL, and the APOCALYPSE of St. JOHN." is available at:


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16878/16878-h/16878-h.htm

In particular, Daniel 9:

'Know also and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to cause to return and to build Jerusalem, unto [5] the Anointed the Prince, shall be seven weeks.

'Yet threescore and two weeks shall [6] it return, and the street be built and the wall; but in troublesome times: and after the threescore and two weeks, the Anointed shall be cut off, and [6] it shall not be his; but the people of a Prince to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war, desolations are determined.


Newton believed that Daniel 9 contains 2 prophecies of the coming of Jesus, i.e., from the giving of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of Jesus, there will be "7 weeks" and there will be "62 weeks". Newton believed that the 7 weeks prediction concerned the second coming, because after the 62 week, "it shall not be His". Concerning the "7 weeks" return timing, Newton wrote:

Know also and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to cause to return and to build Jerusalem, unto the Anointed the Prince, shall be seven weeks. The former part of the Prophecy related to the first coming of Christ, being dated to his coming as a Prophet; this being dated to his coming to be Prince or King, seems to relate to his second coming. There, the Prophet was consummate, and the most holy anointed: here, he that was anointed comes to be Prince and to reign. For Daniel's Prophecies reach to the end of the world; and there is scarce a Prophecy in the Old Testament concerning Christ, which doth not in something or other relate to his second coming. If divers of the antients, as [8] Irenæus, [9] Julius Africanus, Hippolytus the martyr, and Apollinaris Bishop of Laodicea, applied the half week to the times of Antichrist; why may not we, by the same liberty of interpretation, apply the seven weeks to the time when Antichrist shall be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming?

The Israelites in the days of the antient Prophets, when the ten Tribes were led into captivity, expected a double return; and that at the first the Jews should build a new Temple inferior to Solomon's, until the time of that age should be fulfilled; and afterwards they should return from all places of their captivity, and build Jerusalem and the Temple gloriously, Tobit xiv. 4, 5, 6: and to express the glory and excellence of this city, it is figuratively said to be built of precious stones, Tobit xiii. 16, 17, 18. Isa. liv. 11, 12. Rev. xi. and called the New Jerusalem, the Heavenly Jerusalem, the Holy City, the Lamb's Wife, the City of the Great King, the City into which the Kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour. Now while such a return from captivity was the expectation of Israel, even before the times of Daniel, I know not why Daniel should omit it in his Prophecy. This part of the Prophecy being therefore not yet fulfilled, I shall not attempt a particular interpretation of it, but content myself with observing, that as the seventy and the sixty two weeks were Jewish weeks, ending with sabbatical years; so the seven weeks are the compass of a Jubilee, and begin and end with actions proper for a Jubilee, and of the highest nature for which a Jubilee can be kept: and that since the commandment to return and to build Jerusalem, precedes the Messiah the Prince 49 years; it may perhaps come forth not from the Jews themselves, but from some other kingdom friendly to them, and precede their return from captivity, and give occasion to it; and lastly, that this rebuilding of Jerusalem and the waste places of Judah is predicted in Micah vii. 11. Amos ix. 11, 14. Ezek. xxxvi. 33, 35, 36, 38. Isa. liv. 3, 11, 12. lv. 12. lxi. 4. lxv. 18, 21,22. and Tobit xiv. 5. and that the return from captivity and coming of the Messiah and his kingdom are described in Daniel vii. Rev. xix. Acts i. Mat. xxiv. Joel iii. Ezek. xxxvi. xxxvii. Isa. lx. lxii. lxiii. lxv. and lxvi. and many other places of scripture. The manner I know not. Let time be the Interpreter.


(The explanation of the 62 weeks timing can be found in the link above and is omitted here for brevity).

At the time, Newton cannot know when Jerusalem will be rebuilt, but, we do now... I think it's Oct 1967 - after the 6 day war when they reclaim the whole Jerusalem. If you add 49x360 days to Oct 1967, you end up in around early 2015... Just some more food for thought...

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Postby Lookfortruth on Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:04 pm

:welcome: Zorro!
We are glad to see you at FP :grin:
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Postby Salty Skipper on Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:41 pm

:wavewelcome: Zorro! :grin:
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Postby Be still on Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:53 pm

Welcome to FP Zorro :wavewelcome:
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Postby Zorro on Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:02 am

Thanks for the warm reception. I found Herb's site a few months ago and bought his book. I must say that he did a great job tying current events to the prophecies in the Bible. I hope to learn more in these forums and also contribute whatever I can... :thankyou:
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby davis5454 on Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:37 pm

perigrini wrote:So if we take what Jesus teaches us we learn that the great tribulation is not the entirety of the 70th week as the pretrib doctrine falsely teaches but is a period that begins AFTER the middle of the 70th week.


While I now lean pre-wrath - just keep in mind when discussing with pre-tribbers that not everyone thinks the way you listed above.

Having been pre-trib, I was never taught a 7 year GREAT tribulation.
I was always taught that the first 3 1/2 years was only 'tribulation' and the last 3 1/2 years was the 'great tribulation'. I.E. - tribualtion = seals while great tribulation = bowls (or something like that).

Just food for thought.....when you are discussing something with someone else, always try to understand his definitions....otherwise your arguments will miss the intended mark.

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Postby Triton57 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:13 pm

Here are some scriptures that lay out timing regarding our catching away to Christ. These precepts build upon each other laying out several facts from scripture that lay out the details of when we are raptured. If each scripture is true and precept is built on precept, I believe everything becomes very clear. Maybe you have some to add?

We're not appointed to God's wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

We are promised to be escape the time of sudden destruction. Luke 21:34-36

God's wrath is for the children of disobedience with which we are not to partake.Ephesians 5:1-8

Scripture connects the day of the Lord to God's wrath. Isaiah 13:6-13

So when does God's wrath start? Scripture connects the sixth seal to the day of the Lord. Isaiah 2:12-21 | Revelation 6:12-17

The multitudes are in heaven before the throne and before the Lamb before the trumpets. This is placed after the sixth seal and before the trumpets. Revelation 7:9

Further scriptural evidence to timing:
The marriage of the Lamb in heaven before Christ returns in glory. Revelation 19:7,8

The wife returns with Christ at Armageddon. Revelation 19:11-14

The resurrection of Revelation 20:4,5 is after Armageddon, after the beast and false prophet are cast in the lake of fire, and after Lucifer is bound for the 1,000 years.

The coming of the Son of man is tied with the sudden destruction of the day of the Lord. Matthew 24:36-39
This works in accordance with the days of Noah and Lot. Abraham asked regarding the coming of God's wrath and the destruction it brings if there were any righteous if God would spare the city. He got down to 10 righteous and God would not send His wrath. True to His Word, Lot and family were removed from the destination of God's wrath before it came. So too are we promised the same thing. The only difference is that this time God's wrath is coming on all them that dwell on the whole earth. Luke 21:34-36

If Revelation 7:9 shows the multitudes in heaven before the trumpets, the trumpets spell great destruction for the earth and follow as soon as 1/2 hour after the sixth seal, it all fits together that we will be removed before God's wrath and that begins after the sixth seal
    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
Based on the above, I believe it becomes clear that the sudden destruction of the day of the Lord is tied to the time when the people of earth are hiding in rocks and caves. According to Isaiah 2:12-21 this is the time when the Lord arises to shake terribly the earth and is the day of the Lord. Since the sixth seal is separated from the seven trumpets by only 1/2 hour of silence in heaven, I believe the destruction will be sudden and if it didn't come in the form of the trumpets, then the people of earth won't be caught by surprise because they're expecting the wrath at the sixth seal.

The question then becomes when in relation to the great tribulation does God's wrath and the day of the Lord begin.
    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
What days are "those days?" I'm of the opinion that it refers to Matthew 24:15-28, the previously mentioned tribulation to which "those days" would be referring. However, this is not the whole 3 1/2 year great tribulation, but rather the time of Jacob's trouble.

Matthew 24:15-22, Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:4-7 all claim to be the worst time of trouble in all of history, unparalleled. That means they must all be the same time.

Furthermore, Revelation 12:13-17 lays out Lucifer's wrath on God's people. Upon being cast out of heaven, he goes after the woman, Israel, first. It is only upon her escape and protection in the wilderness that he turns his attention outside of Judea. That means since Matthew 24:15-22 is referring to the time of Jacob's trouble specifically as that unparalleled time and Israel is protected for 3 1/2 years, that the "tribulation of those days" must end a month after the abomination of desolation because at that point there is only 3 1/2 years left in the 70th week of Daniel. (Daniel 12:11 [1290 days] - Revelation 12:14 [1260 days] = 30 days)

However, we are also told that this time is cut short for the sake of the elect. If the subject of this time is Israel as clearly delineated in all three passages referring to this unparalleled time, then the "elect" are Israel and by "no flesh would be saved," it is referring to the complete genocide of Israel. We know this cannot happen because Zechariah 13:8,9 states that 2/3 are cut off and 1/3 is refined through fire.

God's wrath came once by water but in the end it will be by fire. Looking at the 144,000 and how they are sealed before the angels that harm the earth and sea are loosed, it becomes clear that the 144,000 (all from Israel) are protected THROUGH the fire of God's wrath and Israel as a whole is refined THROUGH this time. This is opposed to the church who escapes from this time and is seen in Revelation 7 in heaven as opposed to the 144,000 who are sealed on the earth.

This works in conjuction with Romans 11:25 stating that the fulness of the Gentiles marks the end of Israel's blindness.

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Postby heavenlycreation on Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:23 am

Hi guys! I've been unable to log onto this website for a loong time. I'm finally able to get on now, and I have some major news, at least in my mind anyway!

When I first started logging onto fulfilled prophecy a year ago, I was pretty ignorant of end times scripture. I believed what I was told by my pastors, that there would be a pre-trib rapture. God used this website, a vision in a dream, and wisdom to reveal to me how these last days are going to go down. I don't have it all figured out, only what God has shown me. It all makes sense in my mind, but it's going to take some time to get it all out in some sort of a time line explanation. I do agree with the pre-wrath view, but God has revealed some interesting things to me in regards to understanding scripture in a whole new way. Like, it all ties together, and wisdom is the key that unlocks it all. The word really is alive and each part is intertwined together.

So for what it's worth, I just wanted to say that I'm looking forward to getting back on here and sharing what God has revealed. I really am. Fulfilled prophecy has a special place in mine and my husband's heart, The way God has used Herb has really changed our lives, and many others I'm sure.

Also, I could really really use some of your prayers. I've been battling anxiety really bad now for the past 3 months, and it's only getting worse. I know God is leading me through it, but it's kinda scary, and I don't have any other Christian friends other than my husband to pray for me. Please pray that God would strengthen my faith, and deliver me from this. It really is a spiritual attack, and I can feel it squeezing on my brain through out the day, and I have to fight really hard to let it go. I know when you see a pray request online, is seems a little less real than standing face to face, but you are all real people, and I have a real problem, so I know that our father will hear your prayers.

Thank You
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Postby David L on Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:26 am

heavenlycreation wrote:Hi guys! I've been unable to log onto this website for a loong time. I'm finally able to get on now, and I have some major news, at least in my mind anyway!

When I first started logging onto fulfilled prophecy a year ago, I was pretty ignorant of end times scripture. I believed what I was told by my pastors, that there would be a pre-trib rapture. God used this website, a vision in a dream, and wisdom to reveal to me how these last days are going to go down. I don't have it all figured out, only what God has shown me. It all makes sense in my mind, but it's going to take some time to get it all out in some sort of a time line explanation. I do agree with the pre-wrath view, but God has revealed some interesting things to me in regards to understanding scripture in a whole new way. Like, it all ties together, and wisdom is the key that unlocks it all. The word really is alive and each part is intertwined together.

So for what it's worth, I just wanted to say that I'm looking forward to getting back on here and sharing what God has revealed. I really am. Fulfilled prophecy has a special place in mine and my husband's heart, The way God has used Herb has really changed our lives, and many others I'm sure.


Welcome!!

I'm sure we all think that we've discovered a new way of looking at scripture which really isn't new but remains to be revealed to many of us by the Holy Spirit. I look forward to reading your posts.



Also, I could really really use some of your prayers. I've been battling anxiety really bad now for the past 3 months, and it's only getting worse. I know God is leading me through it, but it's kinda scary, and I don't have any other Christian friends other than my husband to pray for me. Please pray that God would strengthen my faith, and deliver me from this. It really is a spiritual attack, and I can feel it squeezing on my brain through out the day, and I have to fight really hard to let it go. I know when you see a pray request online, is seems a little less real than standing face to face, but you are all real people, and I have a real problem, so I know that our father will hear your prayers.

Thank You
Tiffany


Got you covered.
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:32 am

You have my prayers Tiffany! :praying:
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Postby nickylouse on Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:34 am

David L wrote:I'm sure we all think that we've discovered a new way of looking at scripture which really isn't new but remains to be revealed to many of us by the Holy Spirit.

I think that in these last days, Joel 2:28 applies:
And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
I always give someone the benefit of doubt, testing what is said against Scripture. I believe God will speak directly to us through visions and dreams and that God will speak through sons and daughters.
On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. (Luke 21:25-NIV)
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Spirit on Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:16 pm

Hi Triton..
Been reading your post, and I am pretty convinced that we are in the 70th week. I have posted here before and am trying to learn different positions..but without question, I am led to a pre-wrath position (although I would prefer to be pre-trib). I cannot find support for the traditional pre-trib.

Anyway..I love your charts etc..but please help me understand how you arrive at October 5, 2005 as the starting point of the 70th week? I am of the opinion at the moment that it started 1/1/07 with the 7 yr. ENP. Your charts indicated that the 10/05 date compliments the 1/1/07 date, and I am confused about that.

Thank you for your post up there..very good.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Triton57 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:40 pm

Spirit wrote:Hi Triton..
Been reading your post, and I am pretty convinced that we are in the 70th week. I have posted here before and am trying to learn different positions..but without question, I am led to a pre-wrath position (although I would prefer to be pre-trib). I cannot find support for the traditional pre-trib.

Anyway..I love your charts etc..but please help me understand how you arrive at October 5, 2005 as the starting point of the 70th week? I am of the opinion at the moment that it started 1/1/07 with the 7 yr. ENP. Your charts indicated that the 10/05 date compliments the 1/1/07 date, and I am confused about that.

Thank you for your post up there..very good.

Hey Spirit, thank you for your encouragement! To answer your question, I differ somewhat from the position held by many regarding the possibility of the ENP starting the 70th week based on some research I came across prior to learning about what Herb presented. Originally I had believed it to point to a harpazo (rapture) on Rosh Hashanah at some unknown day/hour while I was still young in my study of Bible prophecy. Misconstruing that was what drew me deeper into study because the "coincidental" nature of what I had learned was too significant in my mind to pass off as coincidence. I'm working (well was working and am now working to work... :humm: ) on a presentation of this information tied into Herb's research as well as current events that I watch and have a newsletter regarding.

The short of it is that I believe there are two weeks dealing with Israel, God's week and Satan's week. I believe that the 70th week of Daniel is tied to God's dealing with Israel as a nation and 69 of those weeks were fulfilled to the day historically on the 360-day year prophetic calendar. So what starts God's final week dealing with Israel as a nation again? I believe that timing lies in the completion of all other judgments or agreements God already ordained for Israel. In other words, I don't believe God will begin the final week that brings about the millenial reign of Christ until all previous periods of time dealing with Israel are accomplished according to God's design. Once these judgments are completed, the final seven years (2,520 days) can begin.

This is where my previous studies suddenly clicked regarding the significance of Rosh Hashanah, 2005. You see the diverse studies regarding Ezekiel's 430 days, linking the 1st and 3rd sieges of Jerusalem to the restoring of Israel to the land and the recapturing of Jerusalem, and the 14,000 days were connected regarding God's 7x's judgment on Israel leading to the 14,000 days for lack of faith in God's provision giving them the Temple Mount in 1967. One generation later, 14,000 days exactly, there were signs in the heavens on October 5, 2005 - Rosh Hashanah - marking the Hebrew New Year and the awakening blast. What better time, following the completion of God's previous judgments for Israel, for God to begin His final seven years on the new year with signs in the heavens declared in Revelation 12 regarding Israel?!!

Now Satan's week for Israel is what is spoken of in Daniel 9:27 when "he," the future prince of the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD, will confirm a covenant with many for one week. I believe Herb nailed this with the ENP being a confirmed covenant of the 1995 Barcelona Process, and it is for seven years beginning January 1, 2007. One of the main points that leads me to separate the 70th week from the confirmed covenant week is that the potential confirmed covenant is not on a 360-day year calendar and is therefore inconsistent with the precision of the previous 69 weeks. Furthermore it is a period of time initiated not by God, but by the man of sin. The 70 weeks prophecy is God dealing with Israel, not by proxy.
    Daniel 9:26,27
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
As Yeshua referenced in Matthew 24, it is the midst of this week that the abomination of desolation takes place. Whether this week is referring to God's week or Satan's week, it is in the midst of them both that the abomination of desolation will take place. I would like to refer you to another chart I put together that lays this, and the other details, out in a more visual format. (It helps me to understand better to see it this way) This chart has hyperlinks built in to lead to more detail.

The thing that I always come back to is that Satan's plans are dependent upon God's initiation. The man of sin cannot be revealed until his time as determined by God. We've seen the mystery of iniquity working through history to bring about their New Age and its associated Christ, but as Constance Cumbey has pointed out the newspaper articles regarding the soon appearance of him in the 80's seems to have faded for another time. It's not that they don't want it now, but I believe they're dealing with an archangel stopping his revealing until God's time.

So I hold that there is great significance in the ENP regarding Satan's week for Israel that at some time unknown to the man of sin he will be allowed to receive his power from the dragon who is cast down. I just also believe there is great significance in the exact days from Bible prophecy that collided with modern history of the nation of Israel restored to the land as prophesied in Ezekiel 36,37 and elsewhere... which brings me to what I believe is coming very soon that ties in with the timeline of the HIStory, Our Future conclusions.

I believe that Ezekiel 38,39 is coming this summer or fall. According to scripture God brings Iran, Russia, Turkey, Libya and friends against Israel with hooks in their jaws. According to Isaiah 17, Damascus will be destroyed and they will leave their cities "because of the children of Israel." Syria has a defense agreement with Iran and Russia has been dealing with them as well while Islam ties them all together in their hatred for the State of Israel. Israel has threatened Damascus in the past and we saw Israel pre-emptively strike the nuclear reactor recently in Syria. Furthermore, Israel has threatened to hold Damascus responsible if Hezbollah attacks. Meanwhile Syria is arming Hezbollah dispite Israeli talks. With Israel's very existence at stake (in their secular minds), I can see these threats become a reality and the hair-trigger is potentially set with the radical Hezbollah group. It could also just simply be that Israel catches wind of something brewing in Damascus and resolves the issue. Enter the defense agreement.

When God destroys the attackers in the mountains of Israel, I believe the spiritual condition of Israel will shift in ways we cannot imagine. I've tried to and believe this may be the reason the temple is rebuilt. I believe we could also see a great Aliyah into Israel by those Jews who have remained disbursed among the nations. With the building of just the inner court next to the Dome of the Rock aligned with the Golden Gate, the third temple could be built in a very short time. I've heard stories of a pre-fabrication off-site of the temple for quick assembly as well as the stories of the temple instruments being completed as well as the clothing for the priests who are being trained now. With this, all that is left is the standing up of Michael and the revealing of the man of sin to complete the week before Yeshua returns in glory to take the kingdoms and rule with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. The timeline of the HIStory, Our Future Bible studies and the exact-day prophecies of Daniel and John place the abomination of desolation around the midst of February, 2009 and so these events above would have to come to pass before this year is over. (I also find it significant that our new President will take office just one month before giving up control to the man of sin. I believe policies are already well underway to replace the ailing economies with a new cashless system using RFID tattoo ink developed by Somark and currently being used to track cattle, how appropriate.)

So I'm watching events as they unfold to see if this long post (sorry) based on what God has led me to understand through the diligent work of fellow watchmen is accurate regarding the connection of the dots. It all seems to fit, including the difference between God's week and Satan's week, but I've been wrong before so I continue to watch and pray and share what I'm seeing with those interested. As with all things, Acts 17:11 all of it.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Spirit on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:07 am

Very fascinating..
Thank you for taking the time to explain all of that...very, very interesting.

Now.. I would like to ask you another question (where are those smiley faces when I need one?)

I am not well-studied like you are, but I am getting better and tend to believe we are in the 70th week. I'm going to study your theory more and share with a pastor who I know leans toward pre-wrath and that we also might be in the 70th week too.

Explain your theory on when the seals come into play. Do you see the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord as essentially the same thing? I

When do you see the rapture taking place--around the 6th seal? If so...how far into the 70th week do you see that occuring. Some people think that the 6th seal is well into the 7 year period (toward the end). I see it more occuring around the middle of the 7 years..in conjunction with Matthew 24 where Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." after just having referred to the AoD. After the tribulation of those days, Jesus describes the scenario which mirrors Joel 2:10 language and also 6th seal language. See scriptures below:

Day of the Lord Scripture

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The LORD gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?


6th Seal Scripture

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[a] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[b] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[c] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

Mtt 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mtt 24:29-31 sounds a lot like the rapture??? which, if so, that would place it shortly after the abomination of desolation as opposed to a few years after the AoD.

I hope I am making sense...would love your feedback.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Triton57 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:46 pm

Spirit wrote:Explain your theory on when the seals come into play. Do you see the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord as essentially the same thing?

Basically, I believe the first seal is the ENP.
    Revelation 6:1,2
    And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
The three main points defining the rider here can be seen as paralleling current events in this way from my perspective. First of all, the rider has a bow. Now many people view this as a military weapon without arrows, which it could be. However, in searching scripture it was interesting the first mention of a "bow" was here:
    Genesis 9:13
    I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
It seems to me that the ENP could be viewed as a covenant confirmed from the Barcelona process as in Daniel 9:27 and at the same time be represented by the bow (token of a covenant) in the hand of the rider of the white horse. Then there's the crown being given to him which in the Greek is stefanos, a badge of royalty or symbol of honor.
We have finally decided that Europe will speak with one voice, that of Mr. Solana.” | Jacques Chirac Regarding Solana's visit to Damascus for the Hariri inquiry Solana to Restore EU Ties with Syria (March 9, 2007)

Solana has the power and has had it since January 30, 1999. We are speaking with one voice through Javier Solana.” | Madeline Albright USA Secretary of State Regarding Solana being given sole power to make all further military decisions over NATO Balkan operations.

I agree with Javier Solana's decision to do this.” | Bill Clinton March 21, 1999 in regards to the forthcoming bombings from the above quote.

Relations between the EU and Israel are also part of the Union's wider efforts to contribute to a resolution of the Middle East conflict. The achievement of lasting peace in the Middle East is a central aim of the EU, whose main objective is a two-state solution leading to a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on the implementation of the road map, with Israel and a democratic, viable, peaceful and soveriegn Palestinian State living side-by-side in peace within secure and recognized borders and enjoying normal relations with their neighbours.” | Javier Solana

As I've tried to point out, the European Neighbourhood Policy does not replace the process launched years ago in Barcelona. It renews it, clarifies it and breathes fresh life into it.” | Margot Wallstrom regarding the ENP and fears that it was replacing the 1995 EURO-MED [E.U. "ROMED"] Agreement

[The European] neighbourhood policy [ENP] is not a substitute for the Barcelona process; it rather underpins and deepens it.” | Javier Solana December 17, 2006

A surface examination of the positions held by the man who brought forth the confirmed covenant with many reveals a great amount of power being given to one man to speak for Europe, and he heads the 10 member-states with voting power of the WEU.

Then there's the conquering aspect. This doesn't have to be militarily of we examine the history of the spirit of antichrist which is supposed to be behind this man who will later declare himself to be God. The following I believe was spoken of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but that was also the spirit of antichrist at work.
    Daniel 8:25
    And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
I think the second and third seals are in the beginning stages now with the financial situation developing globally. I think this will lead to a global economic crash that will be quickly replaced by a global cashless system secured by RFID tattoos and a pledge of allegiance to the man of sin after he takes power. In watching the news it seems I'm seeing much more in the way of stories regarding horrible crimes being committed and truly wicked things. And with the Middle East being the center of political focus and the hatred for Israel, I think peace is about to be taken from the earth if it isn't already. How peaceful do most of the people in this high-tech, hustle-bustle world really feel? How is that translating to increased dislike for others, road rage, retaliation, distrust and offense? I can't say it's been broken yet, but I think it will be soon if not already.

The third seal I think speaks to the coming economic climate and food issues I've been sharing in the newsletter. Genetic modification is destroying nutrition imo and affecting things like the ability for a seed to produce a seed-producing plant. Crops are being affected by weather causing shortages and now corn is being used more and more for fuel instead of food.
    Revelation 6:5,6
    And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I think that the second and third seals play off of each other, meaning that increased food problems will make the peace in the earth diminish even more.

The fourth seal imo is going to be the rise of the 12th Mahdi from the well, or as the Bible puts it, the second beast from the earth - the false prophet. Death is the rider and hell follows him, which reminds me of a quote I found regarding Islam in history:
A most compelling proof that Muhammad taught his followers to advance the cause of Allah by the use of the sword, is provided by the example of his immediate successors, known as Califs. They followed his intense fanaticism in waging relentless wars of conquests against Christians, Jews, and pagans. In a relatively short time they carved an enormous empire for themselves. At the height of their power, the Muslims' territories stretched from northern Africa and southern Europe in the West to the borders of modern India and China in the East. Their battle cry was: "Before you is paradise, and behind you are death and hell.

Revelation 6:7-8 also says that power is given to the rider (death) over 1/4 of the earth's population, who will kill with sword, hunger, death and beasts of the earth. I believe the emergence of the 12th Mahdi may unite the post Magog Sunni and Shia sects of Islam to worship the beast from the sea. These would be the main militia, already globally located, who would do the beheading during the time of great tribulation of those who refuse to worship the beast. I believe the fifth seal may be the abomination of desolation and the beginning of this time of great tribulation.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Triton57 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:22 pm

Spirit wrote:When do you see the rapture taking place--around the 6th seal? If so...how far into the 70th week do you see that occuring. Some people think that the 6th seal is well into the 7 year period (toward the end). I see it more occuring around the middle of the 7 years..in conjunction with Matthew 24 where Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." after just having referred to the AoD. After the tribulation of those days, Jesus describes the scenario which mirrors Joel 2:10 language and also 6th seal language. See scriptures below:

Day of the Lord Scripture

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The LORD gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?


6th Seal Scripture

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[a] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[c] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

Mtt 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mtt 24:29-31 sounds a lot like the rapture??? which, if so, that would place it shortly after the abomination of desolation as opposed to a few years after the AoD.

I'm in agreement with you regarding the timing of the sixth seal. More specifically based on my study of Bible prophecy, I believe the sixth seal will take place at some unknown time short of a month after the abomination of desolation. My Biblical reasoning for this timeframe comes from my examination of the exact-day prophecies of Daniel and John. Basically, there are two 1260-day periods of time for two different groups. The 42-month (1260-day) reign of the man of sin begins at the abomination of desolation. We also know that Israel is protected from the dragon in the wilderness for that same period of time.
    Revelation 12:13,14
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
I believe the dragon is cast down by Michael, the restrainer, after he stands up allowing the revealing of the man of sin. We know that the dragon gets the woman for a short time, the time spoken of in Matthew 24:15-22, tied to the "midst of the week" from Daniel 9, and also from Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:4-7. All three of these speak of an unparalleled time of trouble that is directly related to the nation of Israel in Judea. This time is what is cut short in Matthew 24 so that not all Jews would be wiped out because God has a remnant He will take on wings of a great eagle into the wilderness. I believe He must also swallow up the flood of attackers sent after those that flee to the mountains in order to save them as well. Revelation 12:15,16 From this point, the dragon (through his puppet, the man of sin) turns his attention globally and from that point for 1260 days Israel is protected in the wilderness. These two times are offset and because the abomination of desolation starts the 1290 day period of Daniel 12:11, it is my belief that there is a maximum period of 30 days after the abomination of desolation within which the Israeli protection must begin and whatever that time is cut short to is mirrored at the end of the antichrist's reign when Christ returns in glory. Revelation 19:20 This chart visualizes that more:
Image

I believe this time period that is cut short by an unknown period of time is the unknown day and hour when the Lord comes and the beginning of the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night with sudden destruction like the days of Noah and Lot. This is the time we are promised to escape from.
    Luke 21:34-36
    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
To clarify, this is different than when the Lord comes in glory to take the kingdoms. There are two mutually exclusive times that Christ comes. First He comes bringing sudden destruction and removing His bride before it arrives to take them to the marriage of the Lamb according to Hebrew tradition. At this time He doesn't come to earth, He calls His bride up to meet Him in the air and they leave as God's wrath is poured out. Then once the marriage has taken place, He returns with His wife and takes the kingdoms to rule for the millennium. Revelation 19

BTW, I'm reading a book now that goes into greater detail on the significance of the marriage tradition and prophecy regarding Christ's relationship with the church called Lost In Translation: Rediscovering the Hebrew Roots of Our Faith, I recommend it. Basically, Yeshua cannot come back to take the kingdoms if His wrath is still being poured out and it isn't until the seventh vial/bowl that it is done. However, the signs of the sixth seal are placed before God's wrath and heralding them as paralleled in Joel 2:31 and other scriptures. Also note the connection between Isaiah 2:12-21 and Revelation 6:12-17 regarding the tying of hiding in caves and the day of the Lord. At any rate, Revelation 7 is in two parts, first covering the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel being sealed before the angels given to hurt the earth and sea can do their thing. Then we see multitudes beyond counting from all nations, tribes and tongues standing before the Lord in heaven as promised prior to Revelation 8 when the wrath of God begins the destruction with a mountain burning like fire cast into the sea and so on.

Since the sealing of the 144,000 before the destruction and the harpazo are tied together in this placement, I believe it matches with the conclusions of other prophecies placing the harpazo before God's wrath and after the remnant of Israel has been taken to the wilderness to the place prepared for her away from the dragon that just persecuted her. As I mentioned before, I believe this happens within 30 days following the abomination of desolation. In relation to the 70th week of Daniel, it would be between 1230 and 1260 days after the start of the 70th week. I believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential in nature for several scriptural reasons gone over here.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:33 am

Hi Triton57!

I have read your theory concerning your difference of "God's Week" differing from "Satan's Week"; in that they differ by one being on a 360 day calendar -(being God's Week), and 365 day calendar - (being Satan's Week).

Now, if I am correct in assuming that this is what you mean, and in reading what you have posted, you have placed your timing of the 70th Week - based on mathematical reasoning and signs in the heavens - starting on October 5, 2005 (Rosh Hashanah).

Further along in your theory, you have posted that you believe that the AOD will occur sometime in February 2009.

Now, unless I have missed something - even considering that you are viewing this on a 360 day calendar, wouldn't the AOD possibly occur in April of 2009.....(According to your Theory)?

I guess I'm not quite understanding the difference of days in the 360 days vs the 365 days, in your indicating that the AOD could possibly occur sometime in February 2009.

Thanks for your assistance, and please keep up the Outstanding Work!
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Triton57 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:40 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Triton57!

I have read your theory concerning your difference of "God's Week" differing from "Satan's Week"; in that they differ by one being on a 360 day calendar -(being God's Week), and 365 day calendar - (being Satan's Week).

Now, if I am correct in assuming that this is what you mean, and in reading what you have posted, you have placed your timing of the 70th Week - based on mathematical reasoning and signs in the heavens - starting on October 5, 2005 (Rosh Hashanah).

Further along in your theory, you have posted that you believe that the AOD will occur sometime in February 2009.

Now, unless I have missed something - even considering that you are viewing this on a 360 day calendar, wouldn't the AOD possibly occur in April of 2009.....(According to your Theory)?

I guess I'm not quite understanding the difference of days in the 360 days vs the 365 days, in your indicating that the AOD could possibly occur sometime in February 2009.

Thanks for your assistance, and please keep up the Outstanding Work!

Hey Mr Baldy, I'll walk through the reasoning for the dates given with a link to the online date calculator I used.

Basically, the starting point is October 5, 2005 based on the coinciding signs in the heavens and the completion of previous judgments for Israel so as to begin the final seven, the 70th week. Daniel 9:27, referred to in Matthew 24:15-22, places the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week.

From the study of the exact-day prophecies of Daniel and John, I believe that the "midst of the week" is not the exact middle, but 30 days or so before the exact middle. We know the abomination of desolation begins the 1290-day period of Daniel 12:11 and we also know that the 1260 days that the man of sin rules begins at this same time. As I mentioned before, Israel's protection for 1260 days in the wilderness is offset from the abomination of desolation by some unknown period of time within that maximum of 30 days.

The date of February 16, 2009 comes from adding 1230 days (2520 - 1290) from October 5, 2005. I believe that the 1290 days ends with the end of the 70th week of Daniel and therefore the beginning of it, and the abomination of desolation, would begin 1230 days into the 70th week, just 30 days or so shy of the exact middle. Using the date calculator, I just added 1230 days to October 5, 2005. Since a day is a day, the 360-day calendar results can be seen in our current calendar by just adding the days if we know a starting date. (We're not adding by months or years which have different values in the different calendars. To my knowledge, the time the earth takes to rotate once on its axis has not changed considerably through time, just the number of times it turns before one full rotation around the sun.)

This date isn't as firm as it may seem since I have really no idea within that variable 30 days when things will take place if this is accurate. I just use that date because so far in my studies of history God has been very precise in these things and its how the exact-day prophecies seemed to be laid out to me. There is the factor of the unknown timing surrounding the events in the midst of the week so it may not be exactly February 16, 2009. It could be the beginning of March or something.

There's much more information on the 360-day prophetic year here for those interested.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Tevye on Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:07 pm

AndCanItBe wrote:I don't know all of the details of this feast but as I understand it, in Biblical times it could be delayed up to two weeks if the barley harvest wasn't ready.

I didn't know that, very interesting.
Thank you for sharing it ACIB.

I wonder if they do adjustments to the feasts in Israel these days.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby WilliamL on Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:50 am

Re: Pre-wrath Timing? by Spirit on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:07 am

Explain your theory on when the seals come into play. Do you see the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord as essentially the same thing?

When do you see the rapture taking place--around the 6th seal? If so...how far into the 70th week do you see that occuring.
Mtt 24:29-31 sounds a lot like the rapture??? which, if so, that would place it shortly after the abomination of desolation as opposed to a few years after the AoD.

I have very little time online, so will be brief. First of all, I Cor. 15's Last Trump refers to the Hebrew belief/tradition that Abraham cut off the two horns of the ram he sacrificed in place of Isaac. The first was blown on Mt. Sinai during the Exodus, when the LORD came down. The second/last, and greater horn, is to be blown at the End of Days; in our understanding, when Christ comes down. Paul knew nothing of the seven ANGELIC trumpets of Revelation, which prophecy had not yet been given. Compare Ex. 19:19-20 -- "And ... the VOICE OF THE TRUMPET sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, ... 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai'' with 1 Thes. 4:16 -- "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD..."

As far as End Time sequence goes, too much is made of Dan. 9:24-27, which is one of the most obscure passages in the Bible: every version translates it differently. It well could have been fulfilled in 66-73 AD. There is no clear SECOND WITNESS for it anywhere.

To answer your questions: yes, the Lord comes at the 6th Seal, which is at the time of Matt. 24:29-31. Yes, it occurs shortly after the Abom. of Des; probably weeks or at most months. The Lord says he will cut the time short. The "Great Tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world...nor shall ever be [again]" (Matt. 24:21), is a very short period, corresponding to the seven weeks of the Exodus that followed the "great cry...of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again" (Ex. 11:6). The Israelites then fled into the wilderness; Jesus said the same of the Jews in Judea following the AD; Revelation says the same of the Woman of Rev. 12:6 --"The Woman fled into the wilderness..." After the Woman's/God's peoples' End Time flight (= the virgins of Matt. 25 going out to meet the Bridegroom), they will undergo a period of Tribulation/testing before the Lord comes down on heavenly Mt. Zion (Heb. 12:22f.); just as the Lord came down on Mt. Sinai, a type and shadow of the latter event.

I could say more, but running out of time. Find my other posting called "The End Times for Dummies" in the prophecy debate section. Or visit my website at ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies. The whole sequence of End Time events is explained there in brief. Bessings, William
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Tevye on Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:13 pm

Hello William and welcome to FP
I really like your post,
it's very informative
thank you for posting it.

I wonder if Moses being one of the potential 'two witnesses'
would be the one who will blow the trumpet (on Earth)
during the feast that will be taking place at the moment of the rapture.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Spirit on Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:25 pm

I have very little time online, so will be brief. First of all, I Cor. 15's Last Trump refers to the Hebrew belief/tradition that Abraham cut off the two horns of the ram he sacrificed in place of Isaac. The first was blown on Mt. Sinai during the Exodus, when the LORD came down. The second/last, and greater horn, is to be blown at the End of Days; in our understanding, when Christ comes down. Paul knew nothing of the seven ANGELIC trumpets of Revelation, which prophecy had not yet been given. Compare Ex. 19:19-20 -- "And ... the VOICE OF THE TRUMPET sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, ... 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai'' with 1 Thes. 4:16 -- "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD..."

As far as End Time sequence goes, too much is made of Dan. 9:24-27, which is one of the most obscure passages in the Bible: every version translates it differently. It well could have been fulfilled in 66-73 AD. There is no clear SECOND WITNESS for it anywhere.

To answer your questions: yes, the Lord comes at the 6th Seal, which is at the time of Matt. 24:29-31. Yes, it occurs shortly after the Abom. of Des; probably weeks or at most months. The Lord says he will cut the time short. The "Great Tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world...nor shall ever be [again]" (Matt. 24:21), is a very short period, corresponding to the seven weeks of the Exodus that followed the "great cry...of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again" (Ex. 11:6). The Israelites then fled into the wilderness; Jesus said the same of the Jews in Judea following the AD; Revelation says the same of the Woman of Rev. 12:6 --"The Woman fled into the wilderness..." After the Woman's/God's peoples' End Time flight (= the virgins of Matt. 25 going out to meet the Bridegroom), they will undergo a period of Tribulation/testing before the Lord comes down on heavenly Mt. Zion (Heb. 12:22f.); just as the Lord came down on Mt. Sinai, a type and shadow of the latter event.

I could say more, but running out of time. Find my other posting called "The End Times for Dummies" in the prophecy debate section. Or visit my website at ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies. The whole sequence of End Time events is explained there in brief. Bessings, William


Well..
I wish I could devote 100% of my time to studying the bible, but I can't. I'm not too smart, but I like to say I have enough wisdom not to be too dogmatic about anything related to prophecy.

So..I'll review your site as well...and your theory. As I have stated in previous posts, I am leaning toward the theory that we will be raptured at or around the 6th seal, which, to date, I see has happening after the AoD. I am open to other theories too, including pre-trib and pre-wrath where the rapture happens later in the trib. I do not believe the Bible just clearly paints any one scenario for us.

Thanks for the feedback~
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Reaching the lost and hurting for Him...
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Triton57 on Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:33 pm

WilliamL wrote:Re: Pre-wrath Timing? by Spirit on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:07 am

Explain your theory on when the seals come into play. Do you see the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord as essentially the same thing?

When do you see the rapture taking place--around the 6th seal? If so...how far into the 70th week do you see that occuring.
Mtt 24:29-31 sounds a lot like the rapture??? which, if so, that would place it shortly after the abomination of desolation as opposed to a few years after the AoD.

I have very little time online, so will be brief. First of all, I Cor. 15's Last Trump refers to the Hebrew belief/tradition that Abraham cut off the two horns of the ram he sacrificed in place of Isaac. The first was blown on Mt. Sinai during the Exodus, when the LORD came down. The second/last, and greater horn, is to be blown at the End of Days; in our understanding, when Christ comes down. Paul knew nothing of the seven ANGELIC trumpets of Revelation, which prophecy had not yet been given. Compare Ex. 19:19-20 -- "And ... the VOICE OF THE TRUMPET sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, ... 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai'' with 1 Thes. 4:16 -- "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD..."

As far as End Time sequence goes, too much is made of Dan. 9:24-27, which is one of the most obscure passages in the Bible: every version translates it differently. It well could have been fulfilled in 66-73 AD. There is no clear SECOND WITNESS for it anywhere.

To answer your questions: yes, the Lord comes at the 6th Seal, which is at the time of Matt. 24:29-31. Yes, it occurs shortly after the Abom. of Des; probably weeks or at most months. The Lord says he will cut the time short. The "Great Tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world...nor shall ever be [again]" (Matt. 24:21), is a very short period, corresponding to the seven weeks of the Exodus that followed the "great cry...of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again" (Ex. 11:6). The Israelites then fled into the wilderness; Jesus said the same of the Jews in Judea following the AD; Revelation says the same of the Woman of Rev. 12:6 --"The Woman fled into the wilderness..." After the Woman's/God's peoples' End Time flight (= the virgins of Matt. 25 going out to meet the Bridegroom), they will undergo a period of Tribulation/testing before the Lord comes down on heavenly Mt. Zion (Heb. 12:22f.); just as the Lord came down on Mt. Sinai, a type and shadow of the latter event.

I could say more, but running out of time. Find my other posting called "The End Times for Dummies" in the prophecy debate section. Or visit my website at ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies. The whole sequence of End Time events is explained there in brief. Bessings, William

Hey William, I just wanted to add my two cents here in brief by referring to some scripture that leads me to the conclusion you presented, that the harpazo will take place around the sixth seal. Holding the pre-wrath view, I see that we must be removed before God's wrath is unleashed beginning the day of the Lord.
    Revelation 6:12-17
    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I've heard some say that trusting the word of those who don't know God regarding the beginning of His wrath is not a good idea. While I agree with this generally, there is scripture elsewhere in the Old Testament that I believe confirms what they say regarding God's wrath arriving around the sixth seal. (To be clear, I do not believe God's wrath begins until the seals are completed, but the signs in the heavens will cause many to fear what is yet coming and from what I see in scripture, there's possibly only a 1/2 hour of silence between the sixth seal and the beginning of the trumpets.)
    Isaiah 2:12-21
    For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
What confirms this timing for me is the sequence of Revelation 6-8. I believe the seals, trumpets and vials are sequential in nature and the serious destruction begins with the first trumpet when a mountain burning with fire is cast into the sea, reminds me of the movie Deep Impact. Anyways, Revelation 7 is inserted between the sixth seal and the seventh seal depicting two groups, the first are 144,000 of Israel sealed before the angels given to hurt the land and sea are unleashed (before God's wrath) and the second group is from every nation, tribe and tongue in heaven before the throne and before the Lamb as promised in Luke 21:34-36. Then the sudden destruction from heaven begins when the seven angels are given the seven trumpets following the seventh seal.

Regarding the timing of the sixth seal in relation to the abomination of desolation, I believe that the time of great tribulation is split into two focuses for the dragon and his puppet the beast. At the abomination of desolation and immediately following we have the warnings by Yeshua regarding those in Judea fleeing to the mountains. This is described as an unparalleled time of great tribulation. This time is also cut short for the sake of the elect. I found two other scriptures that also lay claim to a time unparalleled in history and so since all three cannot be the worst, they must all be regarding the same time.
    Matthew 24:15-22
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let
    them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for
    the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Jeremiah 30:4-7
    And these are the words that the LORD spake
    concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
The subject of all three of these verses is the children of Israel in Judea. All three claim to be the worst time in history and all three point to a time of salvation for those involved in it. I believe this time of escape from the dragon is the cutting short of this unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble lasting under 30 days. (I think this is also what makes it unparalleled as well. If Zechariah 13:8,9 points to this time, then 2/3 of those living in Judea are going to be killed in under one month.) Then I read...
    Revelation 12:13-17
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
We know from this that a remnant makes it to the mountains of Israel as warned by Yeshua at the time of the abomination of desolation and the 2/3 or so that don't make it there are cut off by the dragon following the abomination of desolation. But notice that the dragon only goes after Israel at first and it isn't until after the flood of his army is swallowed up by the earth and the woman is taken to the wilderness for 1260 days protected from the dragon that the dragon turns his attention to the remnant in the rest of the world and those holding the testimony of Christ. I believe therefore that the time of great tribulation lasting for 1260 days, the length of the antichrist's reign, is the time of great tribulation but that the first month or so of that is focused on Israel in Judea until they are protected. Then for the remaining 1230 days or so, the attention is more globally shifted. I also believe that the sudden destruction after the sealing of the 144,000 and the escape of the bride to the marriage of the Lamb begins once Israel is protected in the wilderness and sealed, placing the harpazo and the sixth seal/day of the Lord around the same time in the exact middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Image

This is where the exact-day prophecies come in as mentioned above to place the timing for Israel's escape to the wilderness at most 30 days after the abomination of desolation, but cut short for the sake of the elect. If the earth didn't help the woman by swallowing the flood and she wasn't taken to the wilderness, there would be no Israel left. Prophetically this is bad and fortunately not possible because I believe Yeshua's return in glory is dependent upon Israel accepting Him as the Meshiach Nagid.
    Matthew 23:37-39
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby sewfancy on Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:27 pm

triton,

I was wondering what were the signs that you spoke of that occurred on Oct 5, 2005. I verified that Oct. 5, 2005 was the second day of Rosh Hashana, but according to Nasa's website, the annular solar eclipse happened on Oct 3, 2005. Were there any other things that you were finding significant?

Thanks,
sewfancy
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Triton57 on Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:04 pm

sewfancy wrote:triton,

I was wondering what were the signs that you spoke of that occurred on Oct 5, 2005. I verified that Oct. 5, 2005 was the second day of Rosh Hashana, but according to Nasa's website, the annular solar eclipse happened on Oct 3, 2005. Were there any other things that you were finding significant?

Thanks,
sewfancy

Hey sewfancy, the determination of Rosh Hashanah from my understanding is based on the sighting of the new moon from Jerusalem. It doesn't have to be an eclipse however.

I've been trying to find someplace listing the sightings for 2005 without any luck, but the October 5, 2005 date came from the Biblical astronomy website. The signs in the heavens was when Bethulah (Virgo) was clothed with the sun and the moon was at her feet, which happens only every 2-3 years.
    Revelation 12:1
    And there appeared a great wonder (sign) in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
I believe that related to Genesis 37:9-11 regarding Joseph's dream interpreting the symbology of this woman as Israel. That this occurrance in the heavens that occurs every 2-3 years coincided with the 14,000 days from Israel's history reclaiming the Temple Mount and Jerusalem seems to me to be a significant tie-in of events on the new year, the awakening blast. The question is, awakening Israel to the 70th week of Daniel? We'll know one way or the other by the end of 2008 I believe.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby WilliamL on Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:56 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Tevye, Spirit, and Triton57. In response to the post of the latter--you mentioned Matt. 24:16, Dan.12:1 (excellent--often missed), and Jer. 30:7 as being prophesies of 'the time like no other.' I.e, the Great Trib.

But there is another important one that I mentioned: "And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more." (Ex. 11:6). This was the Old Testament TYPE AND SHADOW of the End Times' Great Trib. As I mentioned, that Israelite period of tribulation was only just over 7 weeks. There is NO biblical passage that says the GT will be 1260 days. The period of the Mouth of the Beast of Rev. 13 will be 1260 days, but that comes only after the Rapture. I say again that the GT will be relatively short, probably weeks or at most months; not for the least because the Lord has to cut it short "else no flesh will be saved." The wars, plagues, famines, and chaos of the 4 Horsemen will be extremely deadly.

I am about to post the Second Witness on my website (ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies) that shows the events in sequence of the End Times, as foreshadowed by Old Testament stories. The story of the Exodus is as near-perfect a type as you will find. I'll try to get up an excerpt here in a couple weeks. William

P.S. If you read Dan. 11:40-45, which immediately precedes 12:1's "time of trouble, such as never was..." , you will see the events which, I am convinced, immediately lead up to the opening of the Seals. The great power/King of the North of that day invades the "countries" of the Middle East, including (sometime down the line) Israel and Egypt, then sets up quarters on the Temple Mount. He THEN "comes to his end," and the "time of trouble"/Great Trib. BEGINS. This King of the North cannot be the Antichrist. Which leaves the question: what great power might invade and attempt to conquer the Middle East, and then "come to his end, and none shall help him" (Dan. 11:45) BEFORE the "time of the end" begins? Hmmm??
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2nd Witness: End time events in sequence

Postby WilliamL on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:33 am

Here is the 2nd Old Test. witness of End time events I promised to post. This is only part of the article; to see in full, go to ourchurch.com/member/d/dummies.

The story of the First Coming of Christ was foretold in "types and shadows" (allegories) in the Old Testament. ... The "Dummies" article shows that the Old Testament also uses allegory to prophesy about Christ's Second coming. According to Divine Law, the OT must provide at lest two such witnesses. Here is a summary of a second witness: the allegory within the story of the Exodus.

Beginning of the End Time Judgment Era:

In Rev. 4, the End Times commence with the appearance of God in radiant splendor, sitting upon his heavenly mountain-throne. Cf. Dan. 7:9-10. // The Exodus era commenced with God revealing himself to Moses in fire on "the mountain of God." Ex.3
In Rev. 5, the slain Lamb appears, whose blood has brought redemption for his people. Rev. 5:6-12; cf. Dan. 7:13-14. // In Ex. 12-13, the slaying of the first Passover lambs brought redemption by their blood for God's people. 12:3f; 13:12-15

Beginning of Tribulation:
After the Mosaic Passover sacrifice, "there [was] a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again." Ex. 11:6; 12:29-30 At that time, "against all the gods of Egypt [the LORD] execute[d] judgment." He killed their firstborn, thus defiling their temples. 12:12, 29 Pharaoh's son and the Apis bull-calf were both Egyptian gods and firstborns; both were killed in their temple-houses.
// After "the abomination of desolation" of Jerusalem's "holy place," "there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world...nor ever shall be [again]." Matt. 24:15, 21 [Note: the "holy place" is not a building: it is a sacred place on the Temple Mount. Daniel spoke of "your sanctuary, which is desolate" (Dan. 9:17), indicating that the site was sacred even while physically desolate: so it is today. However, "the abomination of desolation" speaks of the defilement of that spot's sacredness, because of an idolatrous image or act there. Cf. 2 Thes. 2:4]

Flight of God's People:
"...then let those who are in Judea flee..." Matt. 24:16 "And the Woman fled into the wilderness..." Rev. 12:6 // The Israelites fled "in haste" from Egypt, into the wilderness: the Exodus. Ex. 12:31-33f.

The 7 Seals of Revelation: Testing and Purification During the Great Tribulation
1st Seal: White horse: false christs bent on conquest. Rev. 6:1-2; Matt. 24:5 "The Serpent [Satan] spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the Woman..." Rev. 12:15 // Early in the Exodus, the god-Pharaoh and his nobles mobilized their forces to conquer and re-enslave the Israelites. Ex. 14:25f.

2nd Seal: Red horse: warfare, destruction of armies. Rev. 6:3-4; Matt. 24:6-7a // "...the LORD fought for them [Israel] against the Egyptians," who were destroyed. Ex. 14:25f.
"...the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon [Satan] had spewed out..." Rev. 12:16 // "The earth swallowed them [the Egyptians]." Ex. 15:12

3rd Seal: Black horse: food scarcity and famine. Rev. 6:5-6; Matt. 24:7b The Woman "has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there for 1260 days." Rev. 12:6 // The Israelites worried about "hunger." God provided them quail and manna. Ex. 16:2-3f.

4th Seal: Pale horse: pestilence and overall chaos, including earthquakes. Rev. 6:7-8; Matt. 24:7c-d // The Israelites nearly stoned Moses at Meribah (Strife, Contention), where there was no water to drink. Ex. 17:1f.

5th Seal: Martyrdom of God's people, who cry out to god to "avenge" them. Rev. 6:9-11; Matt. 24:9-10 // The sorcery-practicing Amalekites attacked and killed some of the Israelites. God swore eternal vengeance against Amalek. Ex. 17:8f.
[Soon after, just before the LORD descended upon Mount Sinai, he told the Israelites: "I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself." Ex. 19:4 // "...the Woman [is] given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly...to her place." Rev. 12:14
"And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud...let them [the Israelites] be ready.'" Ex. 19:9,11 // Said to the gathered-out End Time virgins: "'Behold, the Bridegroom cometh...' [Soon after,] those who were ready went in with him to the wedding." Matt. 25:6, 10]

6th Seal: Thick darkness, earthquake, God's trumpet sounding. Jesus descends in the clouds; most people are greatly afraid and hide themselves. Rev. 6:12-17; 1 Thes. 4:16; Matt. 24:29-30 // Thick darkness, earthquake, God's trumpet sounding. The LORD descended upon Mount Sinai in clouds of smoke; most people cowered away from his Presence. Ex. 19:16f.; 20:18
Christ calls up his elect to him in the clouds, unto the heavenly Mount Zion. Matt. 24:31; 1 Thes. 4:17; Heb. 12:22f. // The LORD called up the elect of Israel to him on cloud-covered Mount Sinai. Ex. 24:1, 9
The 144,000 of Israel are sanctified--"sealed"--and return to work on Earth. Rev. 7:2f; 9:4 // The 70 elders of Israel were sanctified in God's Presence, then returned below. Ibid.
The Manchild is at this time on God's throne, i.e., in his closest Presence. Rev. 3:21; 12:5 // Likewise, Moses alone came into the very Presence. Ex. 24:2, 12-13
The Virgin Church, who is being prepared to "serve" before God, also remains in heaven. Matt. 25:1-10; 1 Thes. 4:17; Rev. 7:14-15; etc. // Joshua, Moses' "assistant/minister; servant" also remained near God's Presence, both on Sinai and later in the provisional Tabernacle. Ex. 24:13; 33:11
After a period of purification--they "wash their robes"--the Virgin Church begins to "stand before the throne" and "serve" in the heavenly Tabernacle. [See "Job Openings: Servants of the priesthood."] They have fully "grow[n] into a holy temple...a dwelling place of God." "And he who sits on the throne will dwell among them." Rev. 7:9, 14-15; Eph. 2:21-22 // After nearly a year of "testing" of the Israelites, and preparation of the Tabernacle, the Mosaic "Tabernacle was raised up." "[T]he congregation drew near and stood before the LORD...and the Glory of the LORD filled the Tabernacle"--fulfilling God's promise to "dwell among them." Ex. 20:20; 40:17, 34; 29:45-46; Lev. 9:5
7th Seal: There followed a "silence in heaven for about half an hour." Rev. 8:1 // In Moses' day, a lull in priestly services ensued after the Glory of God infilled the Tabernacle: they "were not able to enter" it. Ex. 40:35

The 7 Angelic Trumpets: Establishment of the Kingdom on Earth
[All of the Exodus-era allegories for the 7 Trumpets involved seven rebellion by the Israelites against God, and his seven resulting punishments.]

Preliminary: Censer, altar, incense, fire from God's Tabernacle/Temple. Rev. 8:2-6 // Ditto. Lev. 10:1-2
.....
6th Trumpet, Martial Section: A great army out of the east, "prepared...to slay..." Rev. 9:13f. // The Israelites were utterly routed in battle by the Canaanites and Amalekites to their east. Num. 14:39f.
Priestly Section: The Two Witnesses prophesy, burn their enemies with fire, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. They are accused and attacked by the Beast and others. God publicly validates their ministry by raising them from the dead; an earthquake then kills thousands. Rev. 11:3-13 // Moses and Aaron, after having prophesied and performed similar miracles, were confronted and accused by Korah and others. The LORD then validated their ministry, killing thousands of their adversaries by earthquake, fire and plague. Num. 16; Ex. 7-10

7th Trumpet: "The kingdoms of this world...become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ": God firmly establishes who is his chosen ruler. Rev. 11:15-19 // God caused only Aaron's rod to bud, thereby firmly establishing His chosen leader of the Israelites. Num. 17

The 7 Bowls: God's Wrath Poured Out on the Nations
Preliminary: "...the Tabernacle of the testimony in heaven [is] opened." Seven angels come out, empowered to execute God's wrath on the nations. "...the Glory of God" appears. Rev. 15:5-8 // "...the glory of the LORD appeared..." Moses entered the Tabernacle to take "the rod [of God] from before the LORD..." God soon used it and the Israelites to smite the heathen nations. Num. 20:6, 9
.....
6th Bowl: The Euphrates "River...[is] dried up" to prepare for the invasion of the land of Canaan, and "the battle of that great day of God..." Rev. 16:12-16 // The Jordan River was dried up to prepare for the invasion of Canaan by the Israelites, and the subsequent great battle (below). Josh. 3:13-17

7th Bowl: "[T]hundering and lightnings...a mighty and great earthquake...great hail from heaven." Jesus--Yeshua--and the armies of Heaven descend to destroy the assembled armies gathered together against them. The Beast and the False Prophet are captured alive, and "cast into" the lake of fire. Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21 //Joshua--Yeshua--and the Israelites defeated the many armies gathered together against them on 'the day the sun stood still.' "[T]he earth trembled and shook" amidst a great storm (Jasher 89:15), and great hailstones fell from heaven. The Canaanite armies were routed and slaughtered, and their kings were captured alive and "cast into" a cave. Josh. 10
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:33 am

WilliamL wrote: This King of the North cannot be the Antichrist. Which leaves the question: what great power might invade and attempt to conquer the Middle East, and then "come to his end, and none shall help him" (Dan. 11:45) BEFORE the "time of the end" begins? Hmmm??


Hey William,

This is a common misinterpretation. If you read the transition between chapter 11 and 12, you will see there is no transition, and the vantage point remains the same, the angel speaking to him. Only a couple of verses into the 12th chapter, Daniel is told to "seal up" the things that he saw in chapter 11, "[even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased..", then the vantage point changes from just an angel speaking to him, to an encounter with two more men on each sides of the river.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Pre-wrath Timing?

Postby Lightseeker on Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:20 am

Thanks for making this a "sticky" (although it was probably done ages ago and I just didn't take notice :banghead:). Looking forward to reading through it - it looks interesting!

Blessings...
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