How many years is spanned by these two verses?

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How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:40 pm

Joel 1:2-3
2 Hear this, you elders,
And give ear, all you inhabitants of the land!
Has anything like this happened in your days,
Or even in the days of your fathers?
3 Tell your children about it,
Let your children tell their children,
And their children; another age*.


In the above two verses how many years is spanned in its imagery?

Your thoughts . . . . . . . .


Note: - * A better alternative translation of the Hebrew word.
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Re: How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:25 am

Hi Jay,

As you've provided what you claim is a better translation, I think before beginning to answer your question, first we have to settle on what the verse actually says.

So what makes this a better translation?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:54 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Jay,

As you've provided what you claim is a better translation, I think before beginning to answer your question, first we have to settle on what the verse actually says.

So what makes this a better translation?

Love in Christ,
Mark


Mark, if the argument is over the translation/understanding of the Hebrew word H-1755 then http://www.biblerick.com/40H-1700.htm#h1755 provides the following information
H-1755. dowr, dore;

or (short.) dor, dore;

from H-1752; prop. a revolution of time, i.e. an age or generation; also a dwelling:--age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.

.... H-1752. duwr, dure;
a prim. root; prop. to gyrate (or move in a circle), i.e. to remain:--dwell.


Also in EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF BIBLE WORDS: Word Studies for Key English Bible Words Based on the Hebrew and Greek Texts, Edited by Stephen D. Renn, under the English word "Age" and H-1755 states the following "To translate dȯr with the meaning “age” would not be inappropriate in many contexts."

I accept that the tradition of the "bible translators" is that they have used the English word "generation" in the Joel 1:3 verse, however to change the text from "generation" to "age" does not, in my opinion, alter the answer of the time span we should arrive at.

It is my view that the word "generation" in Joel 1:3 is misleading in the context of the normal understanding of the word "generation" i.e. a "descendant generation", whereas in this case H-1755 is speaking of more than just one "descendant generation" within the context of this prophetic book.

Now if you believe that the word "generation" is the right way to understand the Hebrew word in this case, which is derived from the Hebrew Root H-1755, then it is really up to you to provide the proof to justify the difference of opinion in how this particular Hebrew word should be translated.

Now whether or not we agree or disagree on this one word, can you provide your opinion as to the time span that Joel, the prophet, was referring to in these two verses in light of when Joel was providing God's prophetic word to the descendants of Israel/Jacob.

Shalom
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Re: How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:41 pm

This is from Brenton's translation of the Septuagint:

1The word of the Lord which came to Joel the son of Bathuel.

2Hear these words, ye elders, and hearken all ye that inhabit the land. Have such things happen in your days, or in the days of your fathers?

3Tell your children concerning them, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.


http://biblehub.com/sep/joel/1.htm

Verse 3 in the Septuagint Greek:

ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν τοῖς τέκνοις ὑμῶν διηγήσασθε καὶ τὰ τέκνα ὑμῶν τοῖς τέκνοις αὐτῶν καὶ τὰ τέκνα αὐτῶν εἰς γενεὰν ἑτέραν

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/joe/1/1/

As you can see the word in question was translated by the ancient Hebrews using the Greek genea, better understood as generation rather than age.

I have the idea that you consider this passage to be significant in denoting a vast stretch of time. You may even have a certain number of years in mind.

In selecting "age" this leads in the direction of a great length of time, and would serve the purpose of this understanding, if indeed that is where you are going with this.

In keeping with the word "generation", the thought is more, in my opinion, suited to the context.

Joel is talking about the horrific destruction left by the locust swarms, the droughts, and the fires. "You've never seen anything like this before. Tell you kids, and let them tell their kids, don't forget this!" This is what I think the idea is.

As a direct answer to your question, I do not believe there is a certain time span given. I don't believe that is the intent of the passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:41 pm

Mark, you are right that what you have presented is the understanding of the meaning that was enmeshed into the Septuagint translation but the question like the question that exists today concerning our English translation, did the Jewish scholars get it right when they translated the Hebrew text into the Septuagint.

As I do not have the Septuagint in my Computer Study Bible I checked the New Testament occurrences of γενεὰν and found that its Strong Greek Root reference is G:1074 of which there are 43 occasions where the Greek root is found embedded in 9 particular Greek Words. The Greek word γενεὰν only occurs three times in the following 3 verses: -

Matthew 11:16a: - "But to what shall I liken this generation?

Luke 16:8: - So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.

Acts 8:33: – In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth."


Strong's Greek Root understanding of G-1074 can be found at http://www.biblerick.com/41G-1000.htm#g1074 and provides the following information: -
G-1074. genea, ghen-eh-ah';

from (a presumed der. of) G-1085; a generation; by impl. an age (the period or the persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

.... G-1085. genos, ghen'-os;

from G-1096; "kin" (abstr. or concr., lit. or fig., indiv. or coll.):--born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

.... G-1096. ginomai, ghin'-om-ahee;

a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (lit. fig., intens., etc.):--arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.


Please notice the similarity to the H-1755 given in my previous post where Strong's Greek definition G-1074 also indicates that the Greek Root can also be considered to imply an "age" i.e. a time much greater than a "generation", in time.

Now I wonder if the reference to locusts is not a reference to four armies and people who will enter the land of Canaan and turn the land into a desolation during four distinct time periods when there would be locusts/armies invading the land. For me the language seems symbolic in character and a warning to the inhabitants of the land of what was to come in their immediate/long off/far off/distant future with the first occurrence to happen in their immediate future possibly within 200-250 years from when Joel was giving this prophetic word to Israel.

It is for this reason that I am considering the possibility that Joel 1:2-3 is referencing a prolong period of time within the verses Joel 1:2-3.

At the moment I am still feeling my way with my thoughts on this matter, but your reference to the Greek Septuagint and G-1074 only confirm my suspicions on this matter.

Your suggestion: -
Joel is talking about the horrific destruction left by the locust swarms, the droughts, and the fires. "You've never seen anything like this before. Tell your kids, and let them tell their kids, don't forget this!" This is what I think the idea is.
may well be right in that Joel was using a recent experience within the land to highlight the future destruction of the land.

The question still remains, how far into the future was Joel prophetically speaking about in his Prophecy Book, the Book of Joel, that we have in our Bible?

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
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Re: How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby mark s on Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:51 pm

When they are saying "age", it's in the sense of the period of time during which a particular group of people live, not as you want to present it, more like an epoch. The Hebrews could have translated it eon, which would match what you are suggesting, but they didn't .

Personally, I give a lot of weight towards native speaker translators who lived during the time of the original language, compared to those who were translating a dead language.

And I find in rather meaningful that every OT quotation in the NT was from the LXX.

I thing it's a mistake to insert some vast stretch of time, and to turn the locusts into symbols of 4 future armies. They are insects which ate everything edible on the land.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How many years is spanned by these two verses?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:30 pm

mark s wrote:When they are saying "age", it's in the sense of the period of time during which a particular group of people live, not as you want to present it, more like an epoch. The Hebrews could have translated it eon, which would match what you are suggesting, but they didn't .

Personally, I give a lot of weight towards native speaker translators who lived during the time of the original language, compared to those who were translating a dead language.

And I find in rather meaningful that every OT quotation in the NT was from the LXX.

I thing it's a mistake to insert some vast stretch of time, and to turn the locusts into symbols of 4 future armies. They are insects which ate everything edible on the land.

Love in Christ,
Mark
So be it Mark. You are entitled to your opinion.

However, when you said, "it's in the sense of the period of time during which a particular group of people live," it is not restricted to just "one descendant generation," but to an indeterminate number of descendant generations. How many generation are associated with an "age," I do not know, but the understanding that I am coming to is that an age is very similar in length to the length of a day within God's time frame.

Shalom
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