Once Saved Always Saved

the place to ask general questions not prophecy related

Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:30 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:When you abide in Him and He in you (Jn 15:4).


To me this is saying the same thing in different terms.

Let me ask a different way.

What initiates this death? What happens in our lives that we die in Christ, and are raised in Christ?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:45 am

Perhaps this is the crux of our conversation. Abiding in Christ is death to self. In John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me you will keep My commandments."

I'm not sure what you mean by asking, "What happens in our lives that we die in Christ, and are raised in Christ?"

Salvation happens.

Col 3:1-11
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.


2000 years ago (ish), Paul's exhortation (to the church) was to "put to death your members which are on earth" and then lists works of the flesh (more works of the flesh are in other books). The same exhortation rings true today, but teachers of today proclaim OSAS! Some even say that adulterers will inherit the kingdom of heaven!

Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


OSAS adherents are the riskiest people I know! They place their eternal domain in teachings that don't hold up to the truth of Scripture. Who's names are blotted out of the Book of Life? Who does Jesus vomit out? Who are those among the great falling away? We are chosen, yet Jesus chose a devil too (who fell by his own transgression). Why would Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) exhort the church to put off the old man if OSAS were true?

Perhaps OSAS isn't true. Everyone has their own choice to make (except OSAS adherents because they are predestined into election - pardon my joviality).
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:39 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by asking, "What happens in our lives that we die in Christ, and are raised in Christ?"

Salvation happens.


Hi BTM,

In Romans 6, Paul tells us that we are baptized into Jesus' death, buried with Him, and as He rose from the dead, we live a new life.

In Galatians 3:22, Paul said that he was co-crucified with Christ, and though he still lived, it was Christ's life in him.

Some would say that we die with Christ when we put our trust in Him, asking forgiveness for our sins, and at that time die with Him, and are born God's children.

It sounds that you are saying that we die with Christ over the course of our lives, and that if we reach a point of being sufficiently dead by stopping sinning, then we will be saved.

Even as I right it, it's hard to imagine this is what you mean. But tell me what I'm not understanding about what you are saying.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:21 pm

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8). We are not sinless, but we can sin-less and less as we grow in Christ and move on to perfection. Forgive me if I was unclear on that.

But what about the habitual sinner, the dog that returns to his vomit?

Speaking of men, we can look at a men's group in today's church and see that up to 80% have problems with pornography (clergy and non-clergy alike). Some may say pornography is okay because OSAS! Unsuspecting wives don't know of their own husband's addiction to pornography, prostitution, and more sexual deviancy. But OSAS! Wives wonder why their homes are in shambles without realizing their own husbands have become Achan!

To whom would the Lord say to go and sin no more today? To whom would Paul say to commit such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh today?

If I tell a men's group to cease pornography for one year and after the year I will give them each $1 million dollars, we'd see change overnight! Yet men so cheaply sell their soul standing on the sand of OSAS. Where is the fear of the LORD? Men fear earthly employers while turning God into one of their buds whom they need not fear.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:41 pm

mark s wrote:In Romans 6, Paul tells us that we are baptized into Jesus' death, buried with Him, and as He rose from the dead, we live a new life.


:a3:

But I prefer entirety...

Rom 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Rom 6:4
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:11-12
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Rom 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Rom 6:19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.


mark s wrote:In Galatians 3:22, Paul said that he was co-crucified with Christ, and though he still lived, it was Christ's life in him.


Gal 3:22 in my Bible says: "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." What version are you reading?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:09 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:In Galatians 3:22, Paul said that he was co-crucified with Christ, and though he still lived, it was Christ's life in him.


Gal 3:22 in my Bible says: "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." What version are you reading?


Sorry . . . Galatians 2:20.

Men fear earthly employers while turning God into one of their buds whom they need not fear.


While I am 100% convinced that reborn is forever, you and I seem to have a very different view of things. I don't see that OSAS doctrine makes me like that.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8). We are not sinless, but we can sin-less and less as we grow in Christ and move on to perfection. Forgive me if I was unclear on that.


How much can you sin and still be dead in Christ? Still be reborn? Where is the demarcation?

Some may say pornography is okay because OSAS!


Who says that? I believe in OSAS, do I say that?

But I can't tell if you answered my question, when in the course of life does death to sin come? I think you've clarified that it doesn't wait until we are completely without sin. When does it come?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:33 pm

I think we can trade selective scripture forever and still not arrive at a consensus but I'll share my thoughts and convictions fwiw. I do believe that historically God didn't ever abandon His people even after a continuous cycle of sin on their part. He found a way to discipline them that resulted in repentance but even so...the cycle continued.

In the end, He prophesied a New Covenant that would include the gentiles with the added intent of making the Jews jealous so they would once again turn to Him:

Rom 10:20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
Rom 10:21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

(caps NASB)

My conclusion is that He is faithful (even when we are not) and I am convinced, like Paul, that nothing can separate us from the love of God. As sinful, idolatrous, and wayward the Israelites were, salvation is still available to them via the work of the cross. He did not abandon them and will not give up on us either.

:bowing:
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:43 pm

Hi Abiding,

One thing that's stuck with me for years, a friend of mine once told me, "I learned the fear of the Lord when I realized how much God can mess with my life."

I, like you, believe God is faithful towards His children, and I think part of that faithfulness is to never just abandon us to our sinful failings. He knows what it will take to cure us, and He is faithful in His love to do it.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:33 am

mark s wrote:
Men fear earthly employers while turning God into one of their buds whom they need not fear.


While I am 100% convinced that reborn is forever, you and I seem to have a very different view of things. I don't see that OSAS doctrine makes me like that.


I never said it made you like that. I was speaking in generalities of what I've seen in the church.

Can you explain this passage for me?

Rev 3:1-6
And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


This message to the church indicates that names can be blotted out from the Book of Life. I'm not advocating a works-based salvation, but if a person sows unto the flesh and the works of the flesh, you're saying that they're still in good standing with God because of OSAS? Why would "hold fast and repent" be urged to the church?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:49 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:In Galatians 3:22, Paul said that he was co-crucified with Christ, and though he still lived, it was Christ's life in him.


Gal 3:22 in my Bible says: "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." What version are you reading?


Sorry . . . Galatians 2:20.


:a3:

Paul was indeed co-crucified with Christ, that's why he said for Christians to follow his example (1 Cor 4:16, 1 Cor 11:1, Phil 3:17, 1 Thes 1:6).

Not to deviate from Scripture, but I like how Oswald Chambers puts it...

Have you made the following decision about sin—that it must be completely killed in you? It takes a long time to come to the point of making this complete and effective decision about sin. It is, however, the greatest moment in your life once you decide that sin must die in you-not simply be restrained, suppressed, or counteracted, but crucified—just as Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world. No one can bring anyone else to this decision. We may be mentally and spiritually convinced, but what we need to do is actually make the decision that Paul urged us to do in this passage.

Pull yourself up, take some time alone with God, and make this important decision, saying, “Lord, identify me with Your death until I know that sin is dead in me.” Make the moral decision that sin in you must be put to death.

This was not some divine future expectation on the part of Paul, but was a very radical and definite experience in his life. Are you prepared to let the Spirit of God search you until you know what the level and nature of sin is in your life— to see the very things that struggle against God’s Spirit in you? If so, will you then agree with God’s verdict on the nature of sin— that it should be identified with the death of Jesus? You cannot “reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin” (Romans 6:11) unless you have radically dealt with the issue of your will before God.

Have you entered into the glorious privilege of being crucified with Christ, until all that remains in your flesh and blood is His life? “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me . . .”
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:11 am

mark s wrote:
If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8). We are not sinless, but we can sin-less and less as we grow in Christ and move on to perfection. Forgive me if I was unclear on that.


How much can you sin and still be dead in Christ? Still be reborn? Where is the demarcation?


That's not my call. Only God knows (motives, works, etc), and only God can judge.


I will say this. If the "demarcation" were 100 miles away, why would anyone in the fold of Christ spend a lifetime inching closer to it and instead choose not to leap in the other direction?

The very question, "how much can you sin and still be dead?" reminds me of lawyers and CPAs in search of loopholes. Are not the examples of the Old Testament sufficient?

1 Cor 10:1-11
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:33 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:... nothing can separate us from the love of God.


:a3:

Rom 8:39
[nothing] shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


In the New Jerusalem we know there will be no more death, sorrow, or crying (Rev 21:4). Please forgive me if my imagination goes beyond the scope of doctrine, but I often wonder if the only One that may have tears is God. For we know that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ez 33:11), and yet judgement will come to a people created in His image (Rev 21:12).

I say this not to introduce a thought of mine, but to point to His love. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Knowing this fact, doesn't this also evoke a response? To the believer, present our bodies a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1). To the nonbeliever, belief (John 3:16).
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:45 am

mark s wrote:I, like you, believe God is faithful towards His children, and I think part of that faithfulness is to never just abandon us to our sinful failings.


Forgive me if my argument painted a picture of our Father abandoning us. That was never my intent. Only to point that sin causes us to turn our back on Him.

Indeed God is faithful! And He makes a way of escape (not succumbing)

1 Cor 10:12-14
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.


mark s wrote:He knows what it will take to cure us...


The blood of His Son.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:49 am

Maybe I can give a clearer view of my understanding.

When we come to faith, we are baptized into Christ, which means being joined to His death and resurrection. (Romans 6)

We are born again a new creature. (2 Corinthians 5)

We were children of Adam, with the nature to sin, and under God's righteous condemnation. (1 Corinthians 15, Ephesians 2)

We are reborn children of God, and brothers of Christ, with an holy and righteous nature. (John 1, Ephesians 4)

As a child of God, and no longer a child of Adam, we are no longer bound to rules, laws, regulations, and condemnations given for the children of Adam. (Romans 7, Colossians 2, Romans 8, Galatians, and more)

God's commands given to us as His children are to believe in Jesus, and to love. (1John)

We will spend the remainder of our lives on earth implementing into our behavior what God created in our nature. (Philippians 2, Colossians 3, many more)

We will do this imperfectly. (Romans 7)

If we fail to do this, one of three things will be true:
Either: God will see to it that we get back on track. (Hebrews 12)
Or: We will go out from the body of believers having never been truly reborn in the first place. (1 John I forget which chapter)
Or: God will take us home prematurely. (John 15)

For those who are truly reborn, the end result is assured. (1 Corinthians 1, Colossians 3, Jude, many more)

One of my very favorite passages was written to the Corinthian church, well know for both their sins, and their tolerance for the same. This is what God said to them before even beginning to address their serious issues:


I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

(1 Corinthians 1:4-9 ESV)


God is faithful, and He, not we, will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. What a huge relief that is!!!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:13 am

Amen! Mark,

The failure to understand the security a born again child of God has in his salvation has its roots in not recognizing under which covenant God is dealing with men right now, i.e., the New Covenant.

Paul’s admonishments and exhortations to not give in to sin should certainly be heeded, but they need to be understood in regards to OSAS in light of the New Covenant terms.

Unfortunately, I would say that the majority of Christians are under a doctrinal system that’s intent on blending some of the requirements of the Sinai Cov into the New Cov.

Extricating ourselves from this mixture presents quite an ongoing battle in our minds.

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:18 pm

Hi sonbeam,

I agree very much with you. We are so steeped in a "performance based" mentality. Either it's by Jesus' blood or it's not. If it's His death that saves us, then that's it. Nothing more can be a part of it.

I understand the concern that in teaching reborn is forever that some may take that to mean we can just sin as much as we want. But that's like saying that if you tell a butterfly that it will never go back to being a caterpillar, that it will just grub along on the ground. But it's a butterfly, and will never go back.

OK, we're a little more complicated than that, but the principal is the same. (I know, I not just speaking to you anymore :wink: )

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:51 pm

mark s wrote:One of my very favorite passages was written to the Corinthian church, well know for both their sins, and their tolerance for the same. This is what God said to them before even beginning to address their serious issues:


:a3:

I love the beginning of Paul's letters to the church in Corinth! A carnal church at first (1 Cor 3:1), yet saints. Again, I encourage entirety though (1 Cor 10:6-12, 1 Cor 15:12, 1 Cor 15:34, 2 Cor 11:12-15, 2 Cor 13:5).

mark s wrote:For those who are truly reborn, the end result is assured. (1 Corinthians 1, Colossians 3, Jude, many more)


:a3:

For the truly reborn.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:18 pm

Sonbeam wrote:The failure to understand the security a born again child of God has in his salvation has its roots in not recognizing under which covenant God is dealing with men right now, i.e., the New Covenant.


Praise the Lord for His blood of the new covenant! (Mt 26:28)

Can you help me understand something?

Rev 2:1-7 (red letters in my Bible - non ESV)
To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent. But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '


Jesus (the Fulfiller of the new covenant) is telling people of the new covenant that they have fallen and to repent and do the first works; then the overcomers will eat from the tree of life. Yet you say otherwise on the basis of OSAS?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:31 pm

If they don't repent from their dead works, and return to walking in love, God will take away their ministry. The lampstand is the church.

What does the Bible say about how we overcome? There are specific verses which tell us about this.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:12 am

mark s wrote:If they don't repent from their dead works, and return to walking in love, God will take away their ministry.


You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

If they don't repent, God will take away their ministry??? Look at Sardis...

Rev 3:3-5
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


The Lord (Fulfiller of the new covenant) tells people of the new covenant to repent; that he who overcomes will not be blotted from the Book of Life. Yet you say He's referring to their ministry???

I don't think I am capable of persuading. I marvel at the bewitching ability of OSAS!
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:44 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:If they don't repent from their dead works, and return to walking in love, God will take away their ministry.


You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.


Hi BTM,

No, I'm not kidding, this is to me a serious discussion. And I really don't think I'm bewitched.

We were discussing Ephesus, not Sardis, let's stay with that for a moment.

Look at the language used.

"If you do not repent, I will remove your lampstand from its place".

John, in his vision, saw 7 lampstands. Jesus told John what these lampstands were. The 7 lampstands are 7 churches.

So then what Jesus is telling the church at Ephesus is that if they don't stop doing their works without love, and return to simply acting out of love, then Jesus would remove the church.

Either do the works from love, or don't do them at all, I believe is the message.

The lampstand, the key to understanding this, is defined by Jesus Himself. It is not their salvation, it is their church, the place where they perform their serving. And we know it does not refer to the "church universal", in that these are 7 churches in 7 cites. So therefore it is the local assembly.

Again I would like to ask you, and I can give the answer if you wish, but it's better for you to read it yourself, is, What does the Bible say is the way that we overcome?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:59 am

BeTheMoon wrote:. Yet you say otherwise on the basis of OSAS?


Hi BTM,

One other point I'd like to make. I do not make my assertions based on some particular doctrine.

I do not start with a doctrine, and then interpret a passage based on my understanding of a doctrine. I set all of that aside, and simply look at what a passage says, the words that are used, the syntax, how the context affects these, and how these interrelate to other passages. But it always begins with simply understanding the statement made in each given word, clause, sentence, and paragraph.

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:54 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:

Rev 3:3-5
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


The Lord (Fulfiller of the new covenant) tells people of the new covenant to repent; that he who overcomes will not be blotted from the Book of Life. Yet you say He's referring to their ministry???



The Rev letters to the churches were written to churches (assemblies) or congregations that were made up of saved and unsaved members, just like our churches are today.

Since the saved/saints are assured of salvation by verses such as 1 Pet 1:5 and John 10: 28-30, the admonitions/warnings, such as, “I will not blot your name out of the book of life,” given to the Sardis church, were directed to those members of the congregations that were unsaved. Our Lord knew who they were.

1 Pet 1:4,5 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.


John 28-30
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”



The Son and the Father are both securely keeping their children for eternal life. It doesn't get any more secure than that.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:18 am

extravagantchristian wrote:The entire Bible is filled with hope for backsliders. Hope that they can be forgiven and start again. But this ONE part of scripture seems to say that we CAN lose our salvation...

I tend to think that as you say, the Bible is full of hope for backsliders that the one verse that seems to contradict that must mean something else. If this passage does indeed mean those born-again who fall into some sin is a correct interpretation, then it also says that it is IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to salvation.

Personally I find this to be contrary to the whole of Scripture, this book was to the Hebrews who were of the mindset that they must repeatedly offer a sacrifice for sin, Hebrews is constantly showing the superiority of the one time for all sacrifice of Jesus blood.

The first word of chapter 6 is "Therefore," in the end of chapter 5 the writer of Hebrews is commenting on the fact that his readers have been thick headed and instead of growing in the word, able to eat meat, they were still babes in need of milk. Hebrews 5:13-14 13 "For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

He opened chapter 5 with a discussion of the High Priest offering "sacrifices" (plural) for sins. So the "therefore" he says, "Leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God," (etc.)

He is saying you laid that foundation already. Paul addresses this same issue in 1 Corinthians 3:10; "According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it."

This exactly the same thing, "But let each one take heed how he builds on it" means don't go and keep putting Jesus on the cross as some do, putting Him to an open shame, His work is finished and sufficient. It is THE foundation, our justification is complete in belief, our sanctification is demonstrated by works. This is what is meant by it is impossible for those who were once enlightened to lay that foundation, it has been laid, and to do it again will bring reproach upon Jesus and His all sufficient sacrifice.

These Hebrews were used of the repetitive sacrifice, not a one time all powerful one.

extavagantchristian wrote:PS. I don't believe that these people who were once enlightened weren't born again. I realize that's one way to look at it but I don't think that's the case.


I tend to think that he is addressing born again believers, because if they were NOT born again the they would not be putting Christ to an open shame but they would be laying the foundation as he previously addressed.

Remember, if this is speaking of loosing our salvation NOSAS, you cannot be restored, that is clear here if this is what it is talking about, but it is not.


Other passages that should make the NOSAS camp nervous is John 15, Jesus said that the branches that don't abide in Him are cut off and thrown into the fire and burned, another example of no hope if you loose your salvation.

For me the argument is simple if one is truly born again they cannot go away. Fall, stumble, sin yes, but they will always be remorseful and return. Sometimes this is not an attractive person. John deals with this when he said in 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

I concede there will always be exceptions, these God may take like Ananias and Sophira, or those Paul said some sleep who kept sinning.

Peter is a fine example, if Hebrews 6 and John 15 are speaking of loosing salvation because we fall into sin, Peter should have been booted because of what Jesus said in Matthew 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."


The whole of the problem is we do not know if someone really believes they are a sinner who needs saving when they "confess and are 'born again.'"
Salvation is as Mark S alludes, when we overcome. We overcome when we agree with God, it is not our desire to escape hell.

Salvation is when we agree with God that we are hopeless sinners and we believe that He has provided for us forgiveness in the death, burial, and resurrection of His incarnate Son, Jesus Christ and ask for that forgiveness.

That is an overcomer.
Mark

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:09 am

Excellent analysis, Mark F! I agree. Otherwise, it seems the sacrifice of the cross was insufficient.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:00 am

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:1-5 ESV)


Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.


(1 John 3:21-24 ESV)
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:10 pm

mark s wrote:What does the Bible say is the way that we overcome?


Abide in Christ.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:21 pm

Please see 1 John 5:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The work of salvation comes down to either what Jesus did, or what we do.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:26 pm

mark s wrote:The lampstand, the key to understanding this, is defined by Jesus Himself. It is not their salvation, it is their church, the place where they perform their serving. And we know it does not refer to the "church universal", in that these are 7 churches in 7 cites. So therefore it is the local assembly.


So Jesus says (to the church 2000-ish years ago) that names can be taken out of the Book of Life. What's different today? You're saying that "Book of Life" is in reference to a place they perform their serving, an assembly? Where else in the Bible do we see "assemblies" in the Book of Life and not individual names?

To the angel of the church (singular) Sardis...
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (plural)...

Even the ESV and The Message indicate plurality regarding what the Spirit says to the churches.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:38 pm

mark s wrote:Please see 1 John 5:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


:a3:

Keep reading...

1 Jn 3:2-7
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:53 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
John 28-30
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


:a3:

However, a person can wander away. As with the false teachers who were bought by the Lord (1 Pet2:1)...

2 Pet 2:20-21
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:58 pm

Actually, Jesus didn't say that names of redeemed could be blotted from the book of life. He said the overcomer would not be blotted out.

God told Moses that He would erase the names of those who sinned. Because of our faith in Jesus, our sins are not imputed to us, therefore our names remain.

John in the Revelation wrote that those would worship the beast would be all whose names did not remain in the book of life.

It's not that names are written in when we are saved, and blotted out we we are lost-again. Names are written of those who live, and blotted out when sin is imputed.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:00 pm

The letters are to benefit all churches, however, that does not mean that we blend Jesus' message to Ephesus midstream with His message to Sardis. Each letter is a complete, intact message, and we can benefit from each of them. But we should read them in that regard, maintaining the context of each.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:03 pm

Mark F wrote:Peter is a fine example, if Hebrews 6 and John 15 are speaking of loosing salvation because we fall into sin, Peter should have been booted because of what Jesus said in Matthew 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."


Why should Peter have been "booted" if he repented? Repentance is key (and what God desires), OT and NT.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:31 pm

mark s wrote:Actually, Jesus didn't say that names of redeemed could be blotted from the book of life. He said the overcomer would not be blotted out.


:a3:

The one who "holds fast and repents". Why even urge repentance is OSAS were true?


mark s wrote:John in the Revelation wrote that those would worship the beast would be all whose names did not remain in the book of life.


Do you think a person can take the MOB and still be saved? As you referenced a line of demarkation with God's grace in another post (another poster thinks a husband can cheat on his wife an enter the kingdom of heaven), is there demarkation with disobedience? In other words, if OSAS were true, a man can cheat on his wife, get drunk, do drugs, take the MOB, and STILL be saved?

Of course, OSAS folks could say that we won't be here (pre trib), but that's another debate.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:40 pm

mark s wrote:The letters are to benefit all churches, however, that does not mean that we blend Jesus' message to Ephesus midstream with His message to Sardis. Each letter is a complete, intact message, and we can benefit from each of them. But we should read them in that regard, maintaining the context of each.


:a3:

Glad you like context and entirety!

Yet in all the cases, the common denominator is a call to repent (for the churches). Why does Jesus call them to repent if OSAS were true?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:13 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Mark F wrote:Peter is a fine example, if Hebrews 6 and John 15 are speaking of loosing salvation because we fall into sin, Peter should have been booted because of what Jesus said in Matthew 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."


Why should Peter have been "booted" if he repented? Repentance is key (and what God desires), OT and NT.


Why is it ok for Peter if he repents but not the person who cheats on his wife? I would think to deny Jesus is a sin of greater consequence.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:28 pm

mark s wrote:The letters are to benefit all churches, however, that does not mean that we blend Jesus' message to Ephesus midstream with His message to Sardis. Each letter is a complete, intact message, and we can benefit from each of them. But we should read them in that regard, maintaining the context of each.

Love in Christ,
Mark


And if I might add, the distinction should be made that these letters were to seven groups of people among whom were mixed in some unconverted church goers.

The letters were to "churches", the "Church" is not on earth, Hebrews 12:23a says; " to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,"

The things written to those seven churches could not be included in a letter to the Church of the firstborn because there are no unrighteous mixed in with them. I think I can safely say that primarily the admonitions to the seven churches were directed at the unconverted who were among them. There is no way that our salvation is performance based, some may not have been producing much fruit but that isn't a salvation issue.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:06 am

Keeping Alert posted in the "General Bible Study & Debate" forum titled "Eternal"

From the NOSAS perspective, what does "having obtained eternal redemption" mean if it is not eternal? What then do you obtain?
From the NOSAS perspective, what does "those who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance." mean? Who are "called" and what does "receive the promise" mean?
Hebrews 9:12 & 15 " Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."
"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:43 am

mark s wrote:Please see 1 John 5:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The work of salvation comes down to either what Jesus did, or what we do.

Love in Christ,
Mark


Ye Mark. Salvation is by faith from first to last.

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” Rom 1:17
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:59 am

mark s wrote:Actually, Jesus didn't say that names of redeemed could be blotted from the book of life. He said the overcomer would not be blotted out.

God told Moses that He would erase the names of those who sinned. Because of our faith in Jesus, our sins are not imputed to us, therefore our names remain.

John in the Revelation wrote that those would worship the beast would be all whose names did not remain in the book of life.

It's not that names are written in when we are saved, and blotted out we we are lost-again. Names are written of those who live, and blotted out when sin is imputed.

Love in Christ,
Mark


The messianic Psalm 68 confirms that unbelievers start out as "having their names written in the book of life," a figurative way of saying that all men start out as being eligible for salvation because of Christ's work on the Cross.

The author of Ps 68, in speaking of the wicked says:


27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
do not let them share in your salvation.

28
May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.


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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:32 am

This thread is OUTSTANDING. We need to see this type of discussion on our televisions, so that all can see and work out their salvation with fear and trembling......so many people assume so much. This thread is a perfect example of "how it's done." Please continue.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:01 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Actually, Jesus didn't say that names of redeemed could be blotted from the book of life. He said the overcomer would not be blotted out.


:a3:

The one who "holds fast and repents". Why even urge repentance is OSAS were true?


Hi BTM,

Because God did not redeem us and recreate us so that we could remain in sin. He wants us to live the Spirit-life, not the flesh-life, not because it would condemn us (that was removed by Jesus), but because He wants us to live abundant lives, and fruitful lives.

We disqualify ourselves from service if we are spending our time in sins. We rob ourselves of our confidence in prayer. And it's just not what we're made for.

mark s wrote:John in the Revelation wrote that those would worship the beast would be all whose names did not remain in the book of life.


Do you think a person can take the MOB and still be saved? [/quote]

The Bible states plainly that to take the mark of the beast results in condemnation, period. So, no, I do not think that one can take the MOB and later be saved.

As you referenced a line of demarkation with God's grace in another post (another poster thinks a husband can cheat on his wife an enter the kingdom of heaven), is there demarkation with disobedience? In other words, if OSAS were true, a man can cheat on his wife, get drunk, do drugs, take the MOB, and STILL be saved?


I don't recall this, maybe it was another poster, or maybe my memory is defective (always a possibility!), but to answer your question with a question, Can a man tell a lie and STILL be saved?

Of course, OSAS folks could say that we won't be here (pre trib), but that's another debate.


We could do that one!

:wink:

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:35 am

BeTheMoon wrote:Yet in all the cases, the common denominator is a call to repent (for the churches). Why does Jesus call them to repent if OSAS were true?


I'm a little late with this as I've been without internet connection for a couple days. But I'd like to add my thoughts to BTM's question about "why" repent.

When we became renewed by the Spirit, we begin a process of change, renewal and sanctification which we previously were unaware of. The Holy Spirit begins the work of conviction of things we didn't know were sins and some that were unintentional but nevertheless were less than that which reflects our faith.

See here how the scriptures verify the process of renewal until completion:

...Col 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Repentance, then, is an act of sorrow on our part...an awareness of our sin which has already been forgiven. The awareness and contrition leads to a deeper awareness and gratitude for His sacrifice on our individual behalf.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:34 am

I was wondering, if BeTheMoon returns to post, if you would comment from your perspective where you stand on these people who the OSAS/NOSAS is addressing.

BTM wrote: Judas was among the chosen and fell by transgression. How can OSAS be true? If OSAS were true, there's no need for Ephesians 4 and 5 (and much more). I cringe at the thought!


My position is that Judas gave overwhelming evidence he was never converted, (although this is before the giving of the indwelling Spirit if that may have an implication here, I doubt). John MacArthur tells a story of his ordination experience, I am to understand that when one is ordained they present themselves before a board of contemporaries who ask them questions and evaluate them prior to being ordained. There is a name on his certificate of a man that since that time has turned from God and Christ is a most sinful way and renounces Jesus and teaches a very lewd practice of some sort.

MacArthur believes and I concur that this man gives evidence he never was among the redeemed, only by profession, not possession. He acted saved but proved he was never saved because if he were saved he would never have left the faith.

The acid test is do they stay and repent when NOT IF they sin? Men and women in ministry positions are always the ones who bear the worst criticism as they should, but if they do fall, do they stay away, or do they repent. They sin is not the measuring stick, their repentance is.

I understand Ephesians 4 and 5 as an admonition to the professing Saint, so you say you believe, now live like it. The things you once did you should not do anymore. The evidence you are saved is the goal of your life, and it is NEVER perfection but what other goal would God give us? Something like well, I know Jesus is the perfect example, but your not Jesus so just do the best you can and we'll see if you measure up. Absolutely not. We are always encouraged to move in that direction and surrender to the leading of the Spirit, when one stops that pattern we then find out that it was not the Spirit but the self reformation of the man, not a loss of the indwelling Spirit.

It once again brings me to the recognition that man simply cannot grasp the duality of Scripture and how God sees things, man must have an either or set before Him clearly, and in man's reasoning either or is essential. God is evidently different, at least somehow He is. The Scripture clearly and from our perspective declares without apology that man must believe in order to be saved. It also declares that man cannot believe unless God draws Him and reveals Himself.

How can they both be true? Yet if we diligently appraise the presentation of Scripture they are both there and we ague on and on about it, just like OSAS and NOSAS, the Scripture tells us to be perfect and sinless, is that a reality? I don't thinks so, yet it is our goal. Paul clearly states he doesn't want to sin but yet he does.

I think it is essential that one's salvation cannot be determined by a man's behavior and we cannot see his heart to determine it either. There will be many unconverted church goers in hell, and there will be people in heaven with little to no fruit.

If what I believe is what saves me, why do my actions condemn me? That's the question.
Mark

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:56 am

Mark F wrote: The Scripture clearly and from our perspective declares without apology that man must believe in order to be saved. It also declares that man cannot believe unless God draws Him and reveals Himself.

How can they both be true?


Hi Mark,

I have found that all of these seeming difficulties are answered in the Scriptures.

In this case, Paul wrote to Titus that the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men. I understand that to mean that God gives what the theologians call a "prevenient grace" which allows man the faith to make the choice. If they chose to believe in Jesus, this becomes saving faith. If they do not, it may not come again. Or it may, it depends on God. There is John who affirms this in saying the Jesus is the true light who enlightens all men.

I see all of these questions that way. There are no contradictions, there is no "tension" between seeming opposing doctrines, because there are no opposing doctrines.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:12 am

mark s wrote:
Mark F wrote: The Scripture clearly and from our perspective declares without apology that man must believe in order to be saved. It also declares that man cannot believe unless God draws Him and reveals Himself.

How can they both be true?


Hi Mark,

I have found that all of these seeming difficulties are answered in the Scriptures.

In this case, Paul wrote to Titus that the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men. I understand that to mean that God gives what the theologians call a "prevenient grace" which allows man the faith to make the choice. If they chose to believe in Jesus, this becomes saving faith. If they do not, it may not come again. Or it may, it depends on God. There is John who affirms this in saying the Jesus is the true light who enlightens all men.

I see all of these questions that way. There are no contradictions, there is no "tension" between seeming opposing doctrines, because there are no opposing doctrines.

Love in Christ,
Mark


I have in the past thought it a tension but I would assert that they run concurrently, not in opposition one to the other. I see in your response a sense that we understand by faith that it is not made clear how, but it is made clear that they are.
Mark

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Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:32 am

Hi Mark,

I think I'd just say in the simplest sense, God helps us. But some refuse His help.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:25 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Mark,

I think I'd just say in the simplest sense, God helps us. But some refuse His help.

Love in Christ,
Mark


Yes , I would agree with that. Thanks for your reply.
Mark

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Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:59 pm

Mark F wrote:Why is it ok for Peter if he repents but not the person who cheats on his wife?


Who said repentance wasn't ok for the adulterer? All should repent, even in the fold of Christ.
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