Once Saved Always Saved

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:55 pm

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
Mark F wrote:I rest with this,

Galatians 5:1-4; "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."


:a3:

Don't these passages disprove OSAS though? I mean, if the Galatian church were made up of OSAS folks (I shudder at the thought), Paul says "Christ will profit you nothing", "you have become estranged from Christ", "you have fallen from grace"?

Why say these things if OSAS were true?


Look at what he says, that we "eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith".


:lol:

... in the letter to the Galatian church.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:58 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Was anyone born again - regenerated - before Jesus' resurrection? Mark S


Yes. Hebrews 11. The New Cov was in effect immediately after Adam sinned and was banished from the garden.


:eek:

I've heard it all.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:12 pm

mark s wrote:"Have become partakers" is a perfect tense verb. The perfect tense denotes an action having occurred in the past, with continuing result. An easy example is a bell. You have just made a bell, and it is an unrung bell. It has never been rung. Then you ring it. The bell has been rung. This is like the perfect tense. Now it is a rung bell. It can never go back to being an unrung bell.


Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


At lease we agree that "partakers" can be past tense.

:cry:
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:16 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
In permissibility or theology, is there a need to even go there? I mean, what's wrong with "abide in Me" without looking for loopholes?


Hi BTM,

I'm sorry, I must not be making myself clear. I'll try to do better.

The question of the permanence of our rebirth is a serious matter to me. It speaks volumes about who God is, and what He's done for us.

It also affects our ability to interpret and understand many passages of Scripture. How can it be said, for instance, that Jesus will keep us blameless and faultless if in fact maybe He won't? Can we really believe these passages?

Of course, nothing is wrong with "'abide in Me' without looking for loopholes". I'm not looking for loopholes, nor is that the purpose of my questioning.

My question, which you did not answer, btw, was:

Again, this is not a question about permissibility, rather of theology. My question is to verify that you are saying that the commission of sin does not remove salvation, even in extreme amounts, but that sin can lead to a loss of faith, and the loss of faith becomes loss of salvation. This is correct?


I'm trying to clarify your view so I can make sure I understand correctly.

My understanding of what you have said that it is not the sins committed which can remove us from salvation, rather, it is the death of our faith caused by the multiplicity of sins which removes us from salvation. Is that a correct statement of your view?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:21 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:"Have become partakers" is a perfect tense verb. The perfect tense denotes an action having occurred in the past, with continuing result. An easy example is a bell. You have just made a bell, and it is an unrung bell. It has never been rung. Then you ring it. The bell has been rung. This is like the perfect tense. Now it is a rung bell. It can never go back to being an unrung bell.


At lease we agree that "partakers" can be past tense.

:cry:


Hi BTM,

It's not that kind of past tense, where it happened once, but it's over, and happens no more.

Please allow me to use another's explanation:

Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17


http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/v ... tm#PERFECT

If someone has become a partaker in the Greek Perfect Tense, they are of necessity, according to the grammar, still a partaker. If they are not, it means they never were, in the Perfect Tense, a partaker.

I'll leave the other passage for another post . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:26 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Being in a "state of unbelief", to me, means that someone has not been born again. Even if it looks like they had been. But John also explains that there are those among us who look so much like us we can't tell them apart until they leave us. It's not that they were saved, and became unsaved when they left, they left because they were not saved. John is very clear on that.


Can you show me where John is "very clear" on this?


Hi BTM,

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

(1 John 2:18-19 ESV)


If they had been of us, they would have continued with us. The true ones remain.

But they wend out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. The false ones leave.

They don't leave because they become false. They leave because they are false.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:35 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Look at what he says, that we "eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith".


:lol:

... in the letter to the Galatian church.[/quote]

Not really sure what you are saying here . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:30 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:Since we know that a believer can again be entangled and overcome by the pollutions of the world (and it would be better to not have known the way of righteousness), I fail to see how OSAS can be true. In fact, I call it poisonous doctrine. People today are overcome by the pollutions of the world while standing on the sandy foundation of OSAS.



I agree BTM. The proverbial straining at the nat and swallowing the camel comes to mind when I see passages that are plain taken to new heights to compliment an OSAS doctrine.

I think it is obvious that the book of Hebrews was written to born again Jews, just like the entire bible was written to believers for doctrine, correction, instruction in righteousness, and something else that escapes me. It is convenient to say that it was written to Jews who were in the Old Covenant because it supports the OSAS view, but to be fair, there are many Christians including my ex-pastor who believes this as well.

I probably shouldn't have done it, but I called him on it one Wednesday night. Afterwards I realized I shouldn't have done it, but when I see and hear wrong teaching being given to His people, I get angry.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:44 am

mark s wrote:My understanding of what you have said that it is not the sins committed which can remove us from salvation, rather, it is the death of our faith caused by the multiplicity of sins which removes us from salvation. Is that a correct statement of your view?


I'm not pointing to a number of sins as you are, rather sin's ability to harden one's heart. What God does with a hard heart, that's His business between His creation (as we see Him deal with individuals, groups, nations, etc). We're just clay.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:47 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:"Have become partakers" is a perfect tense verb. The perfect tense denotes an action having occurred in the past, with continuing result. An easy example is a bell. You have just made a bell, and it is an unrung bell. It has never been rung. Then you ring it. The bell has been rung. This is like the perfect tense. Now it is a rung bell. It can never go back to being an unrung bell.


At lease we agree that "partakers" can be past tense.

:cry:


Hi BTM,

It's not that kind of past tense, where it happened once, but it's over, and happens no more.

Please allow me to use another's explanation:

Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17


http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/v ... tm#PERFECT

If someone has become a partaker in the Greek Perfect Tense, they are of necessity, according to the grammar, still a partaker. If they are not, it means they never were, in the Perfect Tense, a partaker.

I'll leave the other passage for another post . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark


:lol:

How convenient. Fits your point. It fits others as well, but I digress.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:50 am

mark s wrote:Hi BTM,

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

(1 John 2:18-19 ESV)


If they had been of us, they would have continued with us. The true ones remain.

But they wend out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. The false ones leave.

They don't leave because they become false. They leave because they are false.


Keep reading (entirety)...

1 Jn 3:4-9
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.



I find it interesting that you point to ACs that are in the church at some point, false brethren if you will. Paul also warns about these people...

Gal 2:4-5
And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


"...that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." And you proclaim OSAS?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:54 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
... in the letter to the Galatian church.


Not really sure what you are saying here . . .



Again, the entirety of the letter to the Galatian church.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:09 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:I think it is obvious that the book of Hebrews was written to born again Jews, just like the entire bible was written to believers for doctrine, correction, instruction in righteousness, and something else that escapes me. It is convenient to say that it was written to Jews who were in the Old Covenant because it supports the OSAS view, but to be fair, there are many Christians including my ex-pastor who believes this as well.

I probably shouldn't have done it, but I called him on it one Wednesday night. Afterwards I realized I shouldn't have done it, but when I see and hear wrong teaching being given to His people, I get angry.


:a3:

Born again Jews, born again Gentiles, born again male, and born again females...

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Some say the book of Hebrews was written to Jews of the old covenant while forgetting (or something worse) there is no Jew of Greek in Christ.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with correcting another believer in love, pastor or not. Anger is a natural emotion, only don't sin in your anger or give space for the enemy. Difficult as it is, self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. I say this while preaching to myself too. :wink:
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:53 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:My understanding of what you have said that it is not the sins committed which can remove us from salvation, rather, it is the death of our faith caused by the multiplicity of sins which removes us from salvation. Is that a correct statement of your view?


I'm not pointing to a number of sins as you are, rather sin's ability to harden one's heart. What God does with a hard heart, that's His business between His creation (as we see Him deal with individuals, groups, nations, etc). We're just clay.


This is a question intended to confirm your assertion that it is not sin that removes salvation, instead, it being the hardened heart that can result from sin. I've tried a couple of times on this one now.

OK, so you are declining to give a clear answer. I get it.

No worries!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:56 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
:lol:

How convenient. Fits your point. It fits others as well, but I digress.


Again I'm astounded. "How convenient. Fits your point." ?

The fact is, BTM, this and many more passaged don't "fit my point", they inform my view. I'm not coming to the text with some preconceived notion about what it needs to say for me to be right.

I'm coming to the text to learn what in fact it does say, so that I can be right.

Huge difference, my friend!

And here again, in this statement, you've declined to give an actual response. So again, kind of a conversation stopper.

Oh well!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:04 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Hi BTM,

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

(1 John 2:18-19 ESV)


If they had been of us, they would have continued with us. The true ones remain.

But they wend out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. The false ones leave.

They don't leave because they become false. They leave because they are false.


Keep reading (entirety)...

1 Jn 3:4-9
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.



I find it interesting that you point to ACs that are in the church at some point, false brethren if you will. Paul also warns about these people...

Gal 2:4-5
And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


"...that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." And you proclaim OSAS?


This is part of Paul's presentation to these believers to not allow themselves to be pulled out of their walk in faith, and to be returned to a life where they think that their salvation is theirs to maintain, and if they don't they can lose it.

And this is why I do not yield. It's by realizing that we have God's grace, and His faithfulness, that fills our lives with fruitfulness and joy. That it's not from our ability, instead from God's ability.

I proclaim salvation by grace through faith, and that once we are born into God's family, it's forever, we have passed from death to life. This is the truth of the Gospel. Stand firm in it.

Nonetheless, you have again not responded to my point. You even asked me for this information. And now when I've provided where John sets out the principle that the false ones leave, but the true ones stay, you've moved on without responding to my reply. As I'm looking back through this thread, this has happened a few times . . .

According to John, it's the false converts that leave. The true ones stay. Any response to this statement of Scripture? Do you think I'm reading it wrongly? Do you think it means something different that what I'm saying? Care to expound on how you understand this passage from John?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:35 am

Going back to Colossians 3, God says to those who have been raised with Christ that they have died. He then gives the instruction to kill their body parts that are on the earth.

Kind of a strange statement when you think about it.

But the reasoning is given in the intervening verses. God tells us that we are actually hid with Christ in God. In being raised with Christ we are with Him where He is. This is why we are to keep our minds focused on heavenly things. Fact is, we have an heavenly existence, and an earthly existence. We are to live the heavenly, and put to death the earthly.

And in the midst of all this, God makes an incredible declaration. If you are one of these who have been raised with Christ (not, will be raised), you have died with Christ (not, will die), and you will be revealed with Christ in glory.

Have you been raised with Christ?

Do you see "being raised with Christ" as a process which continues for a period of time?

Do you see "being raised with Christ" something that happens at a particular point in time?

What about dying with Christ, same questions . . . Process? Occurrence?

Notice what we are to put to death. Is it ourselves? Here, God tells us to put to death our members which are on the earth.

Why not ourselves? Well, we have already died.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Nothing in all creation can ever separate you from the love of God in Jesus Christ.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:02 am

mark s:

And this is why I do not yield. It's by realizing that we have God's grace, and His faithfulness, that fills our lives with fruitfulness and joy. That it's not from our ability, instead from God's ability.

I proclaim salvation by grace through faith, and that once we are born into God's family, it's forever, we have passed from death to life. This is the truth of the Gospel. Stand firm in it.


Amen! Mark

I am certain that there must be many who are reading this thread who need to be encouraged (and are being encouraged by what you are saying) to stand firm and not be tossed to and fro away from the security we have in Christ.

Thank you for your faithfulness in proclaiming the true gospel.

:blessyou:

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:09 am

I think it's really dangerous to question God's faithfulness. To doubt your own salvation is to kill your own faith, leaving you fearful and useless. It's spiritual suicide.

He said He would never leave us or forsake us.

2 years ago I was worried that I had lost my salvation, that fear became an obsession, and I developed Scrupulosity which is a form of OCD. It completely warped my view of God. I used to be filled with the spirit and I used to think I knew God really well, but when OCD consumed my life, confusion took over and I felt like I never knew Him at all. The harder I tried to pray and be good, the worse it got. Eventually it lead to depression and a sense of hopelessness that I didn't even knew existed. OCD is like a black hole in your soul, once it sucks you in, it feels like you'll never get out. I became convinced that I wasn't saved anymore and nothing anybody could tell me would change it. It's like how anorexic people think they're fat, you lose the ability to see the truth.

The devil wants us to doubt God, but all we have to do is trust Him. It's so simple. Even a child can do it.

Psalm 125:1 Those who trust in the Lord Are like Mount Zion, Which cannot be moved, but abides forever.


A friend gave me this poem:

The enemy says that I can never be free,
he tries to take my hope from me.
But the same God who answered my prayer back then,
I know that He can do it again.
You tried to overwhelm me, you thought that I would drown,
but you should know by now you can't hold me down.
It's a matter of time and I will be free,
according to the power that lives in me.
Mark my words, it won't be long,
my God is an atomic Bomb.
"Look what you've done", you list my sins one by one,
But God already laid them all on His Son.
As He hung on the cross my ransom was paid.
I was acquitted on that very day.
Accuser now you may silence your words.
The judge has spoken, justice was served.
Have you not heard? Oh did you not read?
My God said He will not forsake me.
Maybe you should have thought before you spoke,
because the calling of God cannot be revoked. (Romans 11:29)
You see it's not about what I have done,
Nobody is perfect, no not one.
One day I will be clothed in white,
but not because I have done everything right.
Someday I will overcome,
because I believed in God's only Son.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:03 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:My understanding of what you have said that it is not the sins committed which can remove us from salvation, rather, it is the death of our faith caused by the multiplicity of sins which removes us from salvation. Is that a correct statement of your view?


I'm not pointing to a number of sins as you are, rather sin's ability to harden one's heart. What God does with a hard heart, that's His business between His creation (as we see Him deal with individuals, groups, nations, etc). We're just clay.


This is a question intended to confirm your assertion that it is not sin that removes salvation, instead, it being the hardened heart that can result from sin. I've tried a couple of times on this one now.

OK, so you are declining to give a clear answer. I get it.


:lol:

You're asking clay to respond to an answer for the Potter. It's not my call, but we see examples of how God deals with hard hearts in His Word. What you call "declining" I call knowing one's boundary.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:06 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
:lol:

How convenient. Fits your point. It fits others as well, but I digress.


Again I'm astounded. "How convenient. Fits your point." ?

The fact is, BTM, this and many more passaged don't "fit my point", they inform my view. I'm not coming to the text with some preconceived notion about what it needs to say for me to be right.

I'm coming to the text to learn what in fact it does say, so that I can be right.

Huge difference, my friend!

And here again, in this statement, you've declined to give an actual response. So again, kind of a conversation stopper.

Oh well!

Love in Christ,
Mark



"Conversation stopper?" How convenient. :wink:

What am I supposed to respond to?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:18 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
Gal 2:4-5
And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


"...that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." And you proclaim OSAS?


This is part of Paul's presentation to these believers to not allow themselves to be pulled out of their walk in faith, and to be returned to a life where they think that their salvation is theirs to maintain, and if they don't they can lose it.


:faint:


Gal 1:6 - I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

Gal 3:1 - O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Gal 5:7 - You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Gal 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 6:7-8 - Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.



This is why I stress entirety.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:27 am

mark s wrote:Going back to Colossians 3, God says to those who have been raised with Christ that they have died. He then gives the instruction to kill their body parts that are on the earth.


Oh, the Colossian church! Beautiful! Again... entirety...

Col 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:37 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
:lol:

How convenient. Fits your point. It fits others as well, but I digress.


Again I'm astounded. "How convenient. Fits your point." ?

The fact is, BTM, this and many more passaged don't "fit my point", they inform my view. I'm not coming to the text with some preconceived notion about what it needs to say for me to be right.

I'm coming to the text to learn what in fact it does say, so that I can be right.

Huge difference, my friend!

And here again, in this statement, you've declined to give an actual response. So again, kind of a conversation stopper.

Oh well!

Love in Christ,
Mark



"Conversation stopper?" How convenient. :wink:

What am I supposed to respond to?


The fact that the Bible uses a word in this case that means having become a partaker in Christ in a way signifying that this is a permanent change, that does not "undo".

In this passage in Hebrews which you brought into the discussion, God teaches us that you have permanently become a partaker of Christ if your confidence remains to the end.

This is not a condition of whether your state of being a partaker in Christ can change, it is a means to know whether you were/are a partaker or not.

That is the meaning of the perfect tense. Have become a partaker, in the perfect tense, indicates a permanent change, which does not undo.

This is a very strong passage showing the permanence of our salvation.

Any response? Do you think I'm not understanding the grammar correctly? And if not, how should it be understood?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:40 am

mark s wrote:Have you been raised with Christ?

Do you see "being raised with Christ" as a process which continues for a period of time?

Do you see "being raised with Christ" something that happens at a particular point in time?

What about dying with Christ, same questions . . . Process? Occurrence?



In response...

Have you been raised with Christ?

Not yet. I'm still on earth.

1 Thes 4:13-18 - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Do you see "being raised with Christ" as a process which continues for a period of time?

Singular event. Read 1 Thes 4:13-18 (in entirety).


Do you see "being raised with Christ" something that happens at a particular point in time?


Yup. Read 1 Thes 4:13-18 (in entirety).


What about dying with Christ, same questions . . . Process? Occurrence?

Both.

1 Cor 15:31 - I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


Disclaimer - I am viewing "being raised in Christ" as the resurrection, of which He is the firstfruits.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:43 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:
This is a question intended to confirm your assertion that it is not sin that removes salvation, instead, it being the hardened heart that can result from sin. I've tried a couple of times on this one now.

OK, so you are declining to give a clear answer. I get it.


:lol:

You're asking clay to respond to an answer for the Potter. It's not my call, but we see examples of how God deals with hard hearts in His Word. What you call "declining" I call knowing one's boundary.


It's an important distinction within this discussion.

You appear to me to be wanting to avoid stating that it's not the commission of sin that costs someone their salvation, instead it's if their heart becomes hard as a result of continued sin.

You've as much as said that in previous posts.

I'm asking that question, but you continue to answer a question I'm not asking, "what does God do to someone with a hardened heart?". That's not my question.

But like I said. I get it.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:44 am

mark s wrote:In this passage in Hebrews which you brought into the discussion, God teaches us that you have permanently become a partaker of Christ if your confidence remains to the end.


Interesting. Following your logic, which passages in Hebrews are for Jews and which are for Gentiles (since you say Hebrews was for Jews)?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:45 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Have you been raised with Christ?

Do you see "being raised with Christ" as a process which continues for a period of time?

Do you see "being raised with Christ" something that happens at a particular point in time?

What about dying with Christ, same questions . . . Process? Occurrence?



In response...

Have you been raised with Christ?

Not yet. I'm still on earth.

1 Thes 4:13-18 - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Do you see "being raised with Christ" as a process which continues for a period of time?

Singular event. Read 1 Thes 4:13-18 (in entirety).


Do you see "being raised with Christ" something that happens at a particular point in time?


Yup. Read 1 Thes 4:13-18 (in entirety).


What about dying with Christ, same questions . . . Process? Occurrence?

Both.

1 Cor 15:31 - I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


Disclaimer - I am viewing "being raised in Christ" as the resurrection, of which He is the firstfruits.


OK.

So then, this does not currently apply to you, is that correct?

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.

(Colossians 3:1-2 ESV)


Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:48 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:In this passage in Hebrews which you brought into the discussion, God teaches us that you have permanently become a partaker of Christ if your confidence remains to the end.


Interesting. Following your logic, which passages in Hebrews are for Jews and which are for Gentiles (since you say Hebrews was for Jews)?


Hebrews was addressed to the Hebrews, hence the name of the book.

It's primary focus is in comparing and contrasting the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It contains many declarative statements containing general principles of truth applicable to all under the New Covenant. This is one.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:52 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:
This is a question intended to confirm your assertion that it is not sin that removes salvation, instead, it being the hardened heart that can result from sin. I've tried a couple of times on this one now.

OK, so you are declining to give a clear answer. I get it.


:lol:

You're asking clay to respond to an answer for the Potter. It's not my call, but we see examples of how God deals with hard hearts in His Word. What you call "declining" I call knowing one's boundary.


It's an important distinction within this discussion.

You appear to me to be wanting to avoid stating that it's not the commission of sin that costs someone their salvation, instead it's if their heart becomes hard as a result of continued sin.


We know that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8). We also know that when we confess our sins and repent He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn1:9). Does this mean we sin more so that grace can abound? I think (hope) you know the answer.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:56 am

mark s wrote:OK.

So then, this does not currently apply to you, is that correct?

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.

(Colossians 3:1-2 ESV)


Love in Christ,
Mark


Incorrect. Raised with Christ in His death and raised with Christ in His resurrection.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:01 am

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:In this passage in Hebrews which you brought into the discussion, God teaches us that you have permanently become a partaker of Christ if your confidence remains to the end.


Interesting. Following your logic, which passages in Hebrews are for Jews and which are for Gentiles (since you say Hebrews was for Jews)?


Hebrews was addressed to the Hebrews, hence the name of the book.

It's primary focus is in comparing and contrasting the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It contains many declarative statements containing general principles of truth applicable to all under the New Covenant. This is one.

Love in Christ,
Mark


:lol:

Convenient. Just wanted to clarify that you agree Hebrews is for Gentiles too.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:08 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
:lol:

Convenient. Just wanted to clarify that you agree Hebrews is for Gentiles too.


You keep saying "convenient". Do you think that's what I'm doing, just using Scripture for my convenience?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:13 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:
It's an important distinction within this discussion.

You appear to me to be wanting to avoid stating that it's not the commission of sin that costs someone their salvation, instead it's if their heart becomes hard as a result of continued sin.


We know that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8). We also know that when we confess our sins and repent He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn1:9). Does this mean we sin more so that grace can abound? I think (hope) you know the answer.


You still avoid what could be a very simply answer.

Naturally we do not sin so that grace can abound, Paul addresses that in Romans.

But that does not answer my question, and I won't bother you with it again.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:36 pm

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
:lol:

Convenient. Just wanted to clarify that you agree Hebrews is for Gentiles too.


You keep saying "convenient". Do you think that's what I'm doing, just using Scripture for my convenience?

Love in Christ,
Mark


I pray not! Though there is convenience to OSAS too (just an observation, not trying to start beef).
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:40 pm

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:
It's an important distinction within this discussion.

You appear to me to be wanting to avoid stating that it's not the commission of sin that costs someone their salvation, instead it's if their heart becomes hard as a result of continued sin.


We know that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8). We also know that when we confess our sins and repent He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn1:9). Does this mean we sin more so that grace can abound? I think (hope) you know the answer.


You still avoid what could be a very simply answer.

Naturally we do not sin so that grace can abound, Paul addresses that in Romans.

But that does not answer my question, and I won't bother you with it again.

Love in Christ,
Mark


:humm:

Not sure where I failed to answer your question. Perhaps you don't like the answer (just thinking out loud).
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:07 pm

Perhaps you don't like the answer (just thinking out loud).


Maybe I just don't want to know?

OK. I'm not sure what I can add, so I think I'll stop here.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:16 pm

:lol:

Ignorance ain't always bliss.

Ya know, if we were having this conversation in person it would most likely be on a golf course followed by a burger afterward. With crispy bacon. Some sliced avocado inside. Tater tots. Coke. One day perhaps. :wink:

I think I'm done too.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:34 am

BeTheMoon wrote::lol:

Ya know, if we were having this conversation in person it would most likely be on a golf course followed by a burger afterward. With crispy bacon. Some sliced avocado inside. Tater tots. Coke. One day perhaps. :wink:


I don't think so. Not like that.


I'd be having an iced tea!

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:18 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:I'm not pointing to a number of sins as you are, rather sin's ability to harden one's heart. What God does with a hard heart, that's His business between His creation (as we see Him deal with individuals, groups, nations, etc). We're just clay.


This is a question intended to confirm your assertion that it is not sin that removes salvation, instead, it being the hardened heart that can result from sin. I've tried a couple of times on this one now.

OK, so you are declining to give a clear answer. I get it.


:lol:

You're asking clay to respond to an answer for the Potter. It's not my call, but we see examples of how God deals with hard hearts in His Word. What you call "declining" I call knowing one's boundary.


We already know how God deals with "hard hearts," We have the ultimate example of how God has already dealt with all sin and that is by the Cross of Christ. And God has done this once for all.



Isa 53:10
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,

Rom 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Heb 7:27

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself

Heb 9:26

Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.



If we don't get what the above scriptures proclaim (especially Heb 9:26) , we are still under law, alienated from the grace of God, and do not have the true gospel to proclaim to those that are lost.

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:33 am

Hi sonbeam,

That's the beauty of what Jesus did for us!!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:54 pm

SB, I say "AMEN" to all those verses you reference... for those who believe in Jesus.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:57 am

BeTheMoon wrote:SB, I say "AMEN" to all those verses you reference... for those who believe in Jesus.


Here are those verses again BTM.

Isa 53:10
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,

Rom 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Heb 7:27

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself

Heb 9:26

Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.


But I see you've added your own qualifier, i.e., "for those who believe in Jesus," to the Word of God.

Calvinist doctrine claims the same thing: that Christ died only for the sins of the elect. The scriptures say otherwise.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:33 am

You said in another thread that a man can cheat on his wife, not repent, and still inherit the kingdom of heaven. I think we just disagree on what the Bible teaches.

All the verses you reference have further context that shed more light on promises for those who believe and those who do not. Are you saying that nonbelievers have their sins atoned for?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:36 am

I think non believers have their sins atoned for, (he died once for all) but is their name going to be found in the book of life? That's the question.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:53 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:You said in another thread that a man can cheat on his wife, not repent, and still inherit the kingdom of heaven. I think we just disagree on what the Bible teaches.


I don't know who said that. But I didn't.

HOWEVER, since we are under the New Covenant, under grace and not law, If a born again believer (a child of God) does something unprofitable (called "sin" under the OT), it is not counted against him/her by God. Therefore, that person remains forever more a child of God, i.e., he/she cannot "lose" their salvation.


Rom 4:13-15
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.


Shall we "sin" so grace shall abound? Of course not! :roll:


BTM

All the verses you reference have further context that shed more light on promises for those who believe and those who do not. Are you saying that nonbelievers have their sins atoned for?


Yes, because this is what the Word of God says. There are many other verses besides the ones I've already cited that attest to this. Here's a couple more.

Romans 5:10

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

2 Corinthians 5:18,19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:54 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:I think non believers have their sins atoned for, (he died once for all) but is their name going to be found in the book of life? That's the question.


Only if they are born again of God's Spirit.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:13 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
BTM

All the verses you reference have further context that shed more light on promises for those who believe and those who do not. Are you saying that nonbelievers have their sins atoned for?


Yes...


... so shouldn't this evoke a response; for the believer to continue in Christ and the nonbeliever to come to Christ?

1 Jn 2:1-6
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:56 am

BeTheMoon wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
BTM

All the verses you reference have further context that shed more light on promises for those who believe and those who do not. Are you saying that nonbelievers have their sins atoned for?


Yes...


... so shouldn't this evoke a response; for the believer to continue in Christ and the nonbeliever to come to Christ?

1 Jn 2:1-6
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.



"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world"

Only to those who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them by God by faith, explained clearly in Romans 4, Abraham believed God and his faith was counted as righteousness, (he wasn't made righteous, God treated him as righteous).

"He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

This is the one you say "looses" his salvation, but John plainly says he is a liar.

We say rightly, he never was saved, therefore he cannot loose what he never possessed.


The one professing to be a Christian and continues living in sin has never been saved, he is a liar as the Scripture says.


The Scripture says in Romans 3:24 "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus", the Greek word used for freely Jesus used in John 15:24 "But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.' " He quoted this from the Psalms and He is stating that they hated Him for NO reason, the evil of their hearts is why they hated Him, the same applies to our salvation when Paul wrote Romans 3:24, He saved us for NO reason, and WHILE we were sinners Christ died for us.

Reason would tell us then (and the Scriptures plainly state it even so) that if Christ died for us while we were STILL sinners, why would He remove His Holy Spirit from us (that the Scriptures declare to be a surety of our inheritance) and condemn us to hell for committing sins, when we were in that condition when He saved us?

We must continue and read what is written, to abuse our liberty is not to be our motive, to continue to sin that is, but to desire to please Him because as sinners He saved us.

It has been said, that Jesus died for the sins of the world and it causes confusion and people then think that everyone is forgiven, to bring light to that then, it would mean there will be people in hell who have had their sins forgiven, which we know cannot be true, But Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. "of sin" because they believe not in Him. Not because they commit certain sins, but because they don't believe that they are sinners and believe that God provided for them in Christ.

So "sins" in particular must be covered, to not believe that is what puts you in hell......food for thought.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:01 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
BTM

All the verses you reference have further context that shed more light on promises for those who believe and those who do not. Are you saying that nonbelievers have their sins atoned for?


Yes...


... so shouldn't this evoke a response; for the believer to continue in Christ and the nonbeliever to come to Christ?


Absolutely, we would hope that the response for the nonbeliever when he hears the Gospel would be to come to Christ by believing in Christ as His redeemer and the One who has cleansed him from all sin.

But the born again believer, the child of God, once he is born again of His Spirit continues to be in Christ regardless of his subsequent actions after the new birth. Should this give him/her a license to abuse God's grace and "sin"? Of course not!

Rom 5:13

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Under the New Covenant, the children of God are not under law, and "where there is no law there is no transgression."


1 Jn 2:1-6
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


Do you take John 2:3-4 to mean that a child of God can lose his salvation?
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