Once Saved Always Saved

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:04 pm

Mark F wrote:There is no way that our salvation is performance based...


:a3:

The dead can't perform anything.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:13 pm

mark s wrote:The Bible states plainly that to take the mark of the beast results in condemnation, period. So, no, I do not think that one can take the MOB and later be saved.


Whew!!!!

John MacArthur, a popular OSAS adherent (reformed, calvinist, presbyterian, etc), says a person CAN take the MOB and still be saved. I think that's the danger behind OSAS in the extreme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwaiH-LhVpA
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:16 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:Yet in all the cases, the common denominator is a call to repent (for the churches). Why does Jesus call them to repent if OSAS were true?


I'm a little late with this as I've been without internet connection for a couple days. But I'd like to add my thoughts to BTM's question about "why" repent.

When we became renewed by the Spirit, we begin a process of change, renewal and sanctification which we previously were unaware of. The Holy Spirit begins the work of conviction of things we didn't know were sins and some that were unintentional but nevertheless were less than that which reflects our faith.

See here how the scriptures verify the process of renewal until completion:

...Col 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Repentance, then, is an act of sorrow on our part...an awareness of our sin which has already been forgiven. The awareness and contrition leads to a deeper awareness and gratitude for His sacrifice on our individual behalf.


..."transformed"..."renewed"...

:a3:

What of the person that comes to the Lord, repents, and returns to their former life (no death to self, no transformation, no renewal?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:28 pm

Mark F wrote:I was wondering, if BeTheMoon returns to post, if you would comment from your perspective where you stand on these people who the OSAS/NOSAS is addressing.

BTM wrote: Judas was among the chosen and fell by transgression. How can OSAS be true? If OSAS were true, there's no need for Ephesians 4 and 5 (and much more). I cringe at the thought!


My position is that Judas gave overwhelming evidence he was never converted, (although this is before the giving of the indwelling Spirit if that may have an implication here, I doubt). John MacArthur tells a story of his ordination experience, I am to understand that when one is ordained they present themselves before a board of contemporaries who ask them questions and evaluate them prior to being ordained. There is a name on his certificate of a man that since that time has turned from God and Christ is a most sinful way and renounces Jesus and teaches a very lewd practice of some sort.

MacArthur believes and I concur that this man gives evidence he never was among the redeemed, only by profession, not possession. He acted saved but proved he was never saved because if he were saved he would never have left the faith.

The acid test is do they stay and repent when NOT IF they sin?


:a3:

Repentance is key! Yet OSAS people say "God chose me" while forgetting that He also "chose" Judas.


Mark F wrote:How can they both be true? Yet if we diligently appraise the presentation of Scripture they are both there and we ague on and on about it, just like OSAS and NOSAS, the Scripture tells us to be perfect and sinless, is that a reality? I don't thinks so, yet it is our goal. Paul clearly states he doesn't want to sin but yet he does.


Are both true? Paul says to follow him and imitate him, while also saying that he doesn't count himself to have apprehended but he presses forward (Phil 3). Yet OSAS folks today proclaim that they have apprehended already; is that not following Paul's example?

Scripture does tell us to be sinless. If the Word didn't say that, what ought we to press forward and strive to/for in endurance like the farmer, soldier, and athlete?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:42 pm

mark s wrote:
Mark F wrote: The Scripture clearly and from our perspective declares without apology that man must believe in order to be saved. It also declares that man cannot believe unless God draws Him and reveals Himself.

How can they both be true?


Hi Mark,

I have found that all of these seeming difficulties are answered in the Scriptures.

In this case, Paul wrote to Titus that the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men. I understand that to mean that God gives what the theologians call a "prevenient grace" which allows man the faith to make the choice. If they chose to believe in Jesus, this becomes saving faith. If they do not, it may not come again. Or it may, it depends on God. There is John who affirms this in saying the Jesus is the true light who enlightens all men.

I see all of these questions that way. There are no contradictions, there is no "tension" between seeming opposing doctrines, because there are no opposing doctrines.

Love in Christ,
Mark



Lets not forget that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), and that everyone who rejects Him is without excuse because they already know God (Rom 1:19-20); making John 3:19 ring true: This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Do folks love darkness more than the Light today? You betcha. And yet, everyone has a choice.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:44 pm

Mark F wrote:
mark s wrote:Hi Mark,

I think I'd just say in the simplest sense, God helps us. But some refuse His help.

Love in Christ,
Mark


Yes , I would agree with that. Thanks for your reply.


:a3:

Thank God for His Helper, given to us.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:35 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Mark F wrote:There is no way that our salvation is performance based...


:a3:

The dead can't perform anything.


At what point then is someone made alive?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:48 pm

In Christ.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:17 am

BTM wrote: Judas was among the chosen and fell by transgression. How can OSAS be true?


Chosen for salvation? Or chosen to be one of the 12 disciples?

Was anyone born again before Jesus' resurrection from the dead?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:42 am

mark s wrote:
BTM wrote: Judas was among the chosen and fell by transgression. How can OSAS be true?


Chosen for salvation? Or chosen to be one of the 12 disciples?


Are you saying that a person CAN be a disciple of Jesus and NOT be saved? I say poppycock to the assertion!
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:31 pm

Was anyone born again - regenerated - before Jesus' resurrection?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:44 pm

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

(John 6:60-71 ESV)


Jesus knew that many of His disciples did not believe.

They were his disciples, but they did not believe. Do you classify these as born again?

Jesus then asks, didn't he choose the twelve, and declares, one of you is a devil. Jesus chose a devil? A devil chosen for salvation? Is this the right reading?

Now, we need to remember also, "devil" can simply mean it's basic definition, "slanderer". So Jesus may not be calling Judas a demon. But still, as we read the passage, I'd have to say that the way "disciple" is being used here indicates what it means in it's basic definition, a student. They followed Jesus and were called disciples, but then went away.

Even still, I believe the Bible teaches that people were only regenerated - born again - after Jesus rose from the dead.

The one's I'm speaking of, the born again, do not "die again", and this is after the cross, after Jesus' death and resurrection.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:58 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:The Bible states plainly that to take the mark of the beast results in condemnation, period. So, no, I do not think that one can take the MOB and later be saved.


Whew!!!!

John MacArthur, a popular OSAS adherent (reformed, calvinist, presbyterian, etc), says a person CAN take the MOB and still be saved. I think that's the danger behind OSAS in the extreme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwaiH-LhVpA


Naturally, though while John MacArthur and I may agree on some points, this does not mean we agree on all points. He also denies the current working of the gifts of the Spirit, while I do not.

Personally, I believe the danger in an "on again / off again" salvation is that it becomes a performance based and therefore legalistic lifestyle, where one comes to rely on their own ability to remain saved, instead of relying on Jesus' propitiation on the cross.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:08 pm

Hi BTM,

As I'm reading back through some of these posts, it's seeming to me that you are thinking that if someone believes salvation is forever, that this also means they believe the other tenets of Calvinism, or Reformed Theology. Am I understanding this correctly?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:34 pm

mark s wrote:
Personally, I believe the danger in an "on again / off again" salvation is that it becomes a performance based and therefore legalistic lifestyle, where one comes to rely on their own ability to remain saved, instead of relying on Jesus' propitiation on the cross.


That nicely sums up my thoughts as well, Mark.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


It's the focus that makes us recognize that trying harder is/was the focus of law while our righteousness based on His grace makes us ever grateful and humble.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:20 pm

mark s wrote:Was anyone born again - regenerated - before Jesus' resurrection?


Hi Mark and company, i haven't read all the posts on this thread, but have read about half as I am interested in what you believe to be true.

I do think people were born again before the resurrection in the sense of being changed from darkness to light; understanding that there is a God and come to know something about Him and His character.

Enoch would be one and before him Able, I think, would be another. Noah was 'born again' and by his actions condemned a world that wanted nothing to do with God. Abraham was born again and had a good relationship with the Lord. Jacob and Joseph, Moses, Joshua etc.

To me being born again in knowing God and God giving you glimpses of Himself. In the New Covenant, we have His Spirit on a permanent basis.

I do agree with you that many in the camp that say you can lose your salvation live in a performance works based lifestyle of Christianity. They have left their first love and think they need to be perfected by the flesh. It is a sad thing to behold and it breaks my heart to see it. Most of them do have a problem with believing, so we agree on this, that believing in Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross is the only way to live the correct Christian life.

This allows the Holy Spirit to work unrestricted in our lives because we are giving the glory and the credit to Jesus and not to self.

Although many are living wrong, I would also include those who hold to OSAS as well. I am not familiar with all the denominations that believe this, but I think most Baptists do believe it. I used to listen to Charles Stanley quite a bit and he adheres to this teaching.

I have come across to many passages in the word of God, the bible, to agree with OSAS. I don't see it there. That is not to say that I think we can lose our salvation easily. What kind of God would we serve if that were true, or what kind of salvation would He have given us if we lose it by committing some sin here and there.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, but we don't have to live in fear that He is going to take away our salvation or remove the Holy Spirit from us unless there is a very good reason. He is a fair God. Shall not the God of all flesh do justly or right?

Christians come against the onslaught of the devil, the world system, and our own flesh wanting to be in control. How would it be if we had to worry about God waiting there ready to judge us for every wrong move ( exaggerating for effect ).

He loves us and wants us to produce much fruit. He is for us and not against us, as in Jer., He knows the thoughts that He thinks toward us, thoughts of good and not evil, to give us a future and a hope.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:02 am

mark s wrote:
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

(John 6:60-71 ESV)


Jesus knew that many of His disciples did not believe.

They were his disciples, but they did not believe. Do you classify these as born again?


Disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. Yet you say a person today can turn back, no longer walk with Him, and still be saved? Because OSAS?



mark s wrote:Jesus then asks, didn't he choose the twelve, and declares, one of you is a devil. Jesus chose a devil? A devil chosen for salvation? Is this the right reading?

Now, we need to remember also, "devil" can simply mean it's basic definition, "slanderer". So Jesus may not be calling Judas a demon. But still, as we read the passage, I'd have to say that the way "disciple" is being used here indicates what it means in it's basic definition, a student. They followed Jesus and were called disciples, but then went away.


One of you is a "slanderer"???!!!!! You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

Jn 13:27a - As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

Even the "ESV" and "The Message" state that satan entered into Judas.


mark s wrote:Even still, I believe the Bible teaches that people were only regenerated - born again - after Jesus rose from the dead.


What of the thief on the cross?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:47 am

mark s wrote:Personally, I believe the danger in an "on again / off again" salvation is that it becomes a performance based and therefore legalistic lifestyle, where one comes to rely on their own ability to remain saved, instead of relying on Jesus' propitiation on the cross.


"On again/off again"? What marriage is "on again/off again"? Does a husband divorce his wife, marry her again, divorce her again, marry her again? Does the wife do the same to her husband? What kind of marriage is this??!!!

Do I call my bride a "legalist" if I do what hurts her? Since we are one flesh, am I not hurting myself (Eph 5:28 says a husband who loves his wife loves himself)? What of the bride of Christ to her Husband?

Men today rally against "performance" and cry "OSAS, OSAS, OSAS!" What you call "performance based" I call an exhortation to die. Dead people have not their own ability.

Tell me, do you call Eph 5:3-4 (But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks) performance?

A baby is born into new experience leaving the womb. If a person is born again and denies what you call "performance", what's new? What has that person left?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:48 am

mark s wrote:Hi BTM,

As I'm reading back through some of these posts, it's seeming to me that you are thinking that if someone believes salvation is forever, that this also means they believe the other tenets of Calvinism, or Reformed Theology. Am I understanding this correctly?

Love in Christ,
Mark



Not at all. I'm just lumping the error together. :wink:

:boink:

:cheeky:
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:13 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote:
Personally, I believe the danger in an "on again / off again" salvation is that it becomes a performance based and therefore legalistic lifestyle, where one comes to rely on their own ability to remain saved, instead of relying on Jesus' propitiation on the cross.


That nicely sums up my thoughts as well, Mark.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


:a3:

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Were not the Jews His workmanship also? Are they not still? And yet...

1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Abiding in His Word wrote:It's the focus that makes us recognize that trying harder is/was the focus of law while our righteousness based on His grace makes us ever grateful and humble.


When I read Hosea and hear God's plea with His workmanship, I don't perceive a call to repent a return to Him as "trying harder" at all. There is tremendous simplicity to the one who abides in Christ... with the Helper who is alive and active today.

2 Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:04 am

BeTheMoon wrote:Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Were not the Jews His workmanship also? Are they not still? And yet...

1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.


BTM,

The bottom line is that regardless of the history of the sinfulness of His people evidenced in that passage, He did not abandon them. Even after their continual idolatry and unfaithfulness, He was longsuffering toward them and even went so far as to say that He would put their sins and lawlessness out of His mind and remember them no more. (Heb. 10:17)

To accomplish this, out of His unending love for them, He implemented the New Covenant which would change the heart .... which is the place where sin originates. He knows how to get us from point A to point Z.

The scripture you posted from 1 Cor. 10:1-12 is describing the tedious journey the Hebrews undertook while en route to the land He had for them. They made the journey much more difficult than needed as He had provided the "cloud" of protection and provision on their behalf. Paul is warning the Corinthians that following the example of the Hebrews, they would make a 5-6 day journey into a 400 yr. journey unnecessarily.

2 Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


Yes, the simplicity is the gospel of grace. If anyone presents a gospel of grace mixed with "the law" (as the Pharisees did) that gospel is corrupted.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:59 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:The scripture you posted from 1 Cor. 10:1-12 is describing the tedious journey the Hebrews undertook while en route to the land He had for them. They made the journey much more difficult than needed as He had provided the "cloud" of protection and provision on their behalf. Paul is warning the Corinthians that following the example of the Hebrews, they would make a 5-6 day journey into a 400 yr. journey unnecessarily.


Interesting. So vs 10 ("destroyed by the destroyer") is referencing a journey?

God didn't spare the angels (2 Pet 2:4), He didn't spare the Jews (Rom 11:20); and knowing of foolish virgins (Mt 25:1-13) you say He now spares them because of their "unnecessary journey"?

Mt 25:11-13
Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:20 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:
mark s wrote:Was anyone born again - regenerated - before Jesus' resurrection?


To me being born again in knowing God and God giving you glimpses of Himself. In the New Covenant, we have His Spirit on a permanent basis.


Hi sacredcowbasher,

(I've always enjoyed your screen name, by the way . . .)

I understand being born again in the meaning in 2 Cor 5,

If any man be in Christ he is a new creation

To be born again is to be created a new creature that did not exist before.

Ephesians 4 tells us we are created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

John 1 tells us that if we receive Jesus, believing in His Name, then we become born of God. We were part of the line of humanity descended from Adam (1 Cor 15). This line is corrupted by sin, and doomed to destruction.

When we are born of God, regenerated, we are created anew. John is clear that this is not a human birth, but a birth from God. We are born to Him, His children.

In Romans 6 Paul teaches what "in Christ" means. It means that we are immersed into Jesus as He died, was buried, and resurrected.

The new creation is a result of Jesus sharing with us His death and resurrection. Our flesh died with Him. Our debt to the Law is paid in His death, as we died with Him. Our new life is His resurrection giving us life.

Jesus told Nicodemus that unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. This is why the OT faithful were in sheol, waiting. This is why the OT sacrifices had to be repeated continually. Sin was covered, but not sent away. Man was justified in faith, but not re-created in righteousness. He was declared righteous judicially, but not made righteous in nature.

It is in being reborn we are made righteous in our nature.

What confuses so many is that the body is not yet made righteous, so our behavior ends up looking like a hodge podge of good and evil as both our new nature and our old nature struggle to assert control over our members (eyes, hands, feet, etc.).

I do agree with you that many in the camp that say you can lose your salvation live in a performance works based lifestyle of Christianity. They have left their first love and think they need to be perfected by the flesh. It is a sad thing to behold and it breaks my heart to see it.


Mine to!

:cry:

Let me ask you . . . how many sins, of what kind, would be required for one to lose salvation? How strongly will God hold on to us?

What does it mean that nothing in all of creation can separate us from God's love for us through Jesus Christ?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:47 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. Yet you say a person today can turn back, no longer walk with Him, and still be saved? Because OSAS?


Hi BTM,

What I'm saying here is that you need to look at how the words are being used to understand what is being said.

These were called disciples, and yet Jesus already knew they did not believe. So then in this Gospel book, it is not axiomatic that to be called a disciple is to be defined as "born again saved". They were called disciples even in their unbelief.

OK, that's a part of it. Another part is . . . what does it mean to be born again, and when did this begin to occur. I assert that no one was born again until after Jesus rose from among the dead. You can read my post to sacredcowbasher for more of my view on that.

You. May. Think. I'm. Kidding.

But if this is not actually poppycock, and is in fact a Biblical reality, than we are not even in the same category as they were. Something new has come. Something so far above the previous covenant that it cannot even be compared.

mark s wrote:Jesus then asks, didn't he choose the twelve, and declares, one of you is a devil. Jesus chose a devil? A devil chosen for salvation? Is this the right reading?

Now, we need to remember also, "devil" can simply mean it's basic definition, "slanderer". So Jesus may not be calling Judas a demon. But still, as we read the passage, I'd have to say that the way "disciple" is being used here indicates what it means in it's basic definition, a student. They followed Jesus and were called disciples, but then went away.


One of you is a "slanderer"???!!!!! You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.


Again, this simply goes to the meanings of the words in the Scriptures. Devil is from the Greek diabolos, which means slanderer. It is also used to designate demons and/or fallen angels. "Satan" means "adversary, and you can find that usage in Greek writings. Also in Hebrew, for that matter, since the Greek took the word, with it's meaning, from Hebrew. So when we read these words, it's good to keep in mind that not every instance is using the word as a nominative.

Take for example Jesus word's to Peter, "Get behind me Satan". We capitalize because we are used to "Satan" being used as a name, but it's also a non-nominative noun, again, meaning adversary. Now, given the usage of the word, no matter how you look at it, calling Peter "satan" is a slap in the face. But Jesus not not necessarily saying that Satan was standing there in front of Him looking like Peter.

Now . . . as to the next part . . .

Jn 13:27a - As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

Even the "ESV" and "The Message" state that satan entered into Judas.


(I find it interesting that you put the ESV on the same level as The Message. To me they are very different. Nonetheless . . .)

Jesus said, "yet one of you is a devil". This was a present tense declarative statement of identity. "One of you is a devil". Is, Now, a devil. Not "will be in a time in the future possessed by a devil". Is a devil.

We know that some time after this, yes, Satan entered into Judas. Possessed him, inhabited him, but did not become him. And had not become him earlier.

So Jesus saying, "one of you is a devil", and the fact that Satan later entered into Judas are not two separate statements of the same fact. One describes one fact, the other a different fact.

And I feel the need to repeat . . . I'm reading these passages, and simply interpreting them according to their statements. I don't make these assertions based on a view that salvation is forever. It's not that I'm starting with a doctrine, then bending everything else to fit into it.

If you find that I'm not actually representing the text of Scripture fairly, please point out where I am in error, whether it being definition, or syntax, or idiom or other usage, what have you. I always enjoy learning.

mark s wrote:Even still, I believe the Bible teaches that people were only regenerated - born again - after Jesus rose from the dead.


What of the thief on the cross?


Not to answer your question with a question . . . well, that's not true . . .

What covenant was he under when he died? When did the New Covenant begin? I do not see a statement in Scripture that he was born again, or not born again, only that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise.

So . . . where did Jesus go when He died?

We know from Ephesians 2 that we, in the New Covenant, are seated together with Jesus in the heavenly realm.

What about the thief, is that were he was?

Or was he with Jesus when Jesus descended into the heart of the earth? Preaching to those spirits in prison? From which He led captivity captive?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:51 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Hi BTM,

As I'm reading back through some of these posts, it's seeming to me that you are thinking that if someone believes salvation is forever, that this also means they believe the other tenets of Calvinism, or Reformed Theology. Am I understanding this correctly?

Love in Christ,
Mark



Not at all. I'm just lumping the error together. :wink:

:boink:

:cheeky:


Kind of a . . . guilty by association?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:59 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Personally, I believe the danger in an "on again / off again" salvation is that it becomes a performance based and therefore legalistic lifestyle, where one comes to rely on their own ability to remain saved, instead of relying on Jesus' propitiation on the cross.


"On again/off again"? What marriage is "on again/off again"? Does a husband divorce his wife, marry her again, divorce her again, marry her again? Does the wife do the same to her husband? What kind of marriage is this??!!!

Do I call my bride a "legalist" if I do what hurts her? Since we are one flesh, am I not hurting myself (Eph 5:28 says a husband who loves his wife loves himself)? What of the bride of Christ to her Husband?

Men today rally against "performance" and cry "OSAS, OSAS, OSAS!" What you call "performance based" I call an exhortation to die. Dead people have not their own ability.

Tell me, do you call Eph 5:3-4 (But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks) performance?

A baby is born into new experience leaving the womb. If a person is born again and denies what you call "performance", what's new? What has that person left?


Hi BTW,

We do the works of faith because we have faith. Who rallies against performance? Is that not a straw man? Where do I say that we are not to work out our salvation? That we should not do the works of the Spirit? Where do I say that these are unimportant, and not to be desired? Not called for by God Himself??

But we do not do the works as a supplement to faith for salvation. Salvation is by faith alone. And having believed we are reborn. We are reborn into a creature that is uncorruptible by sin. Anything otherwise, and the very first sin would corrupt unto death.

Sin kills. There's no getting around that. So if sin can destroy your salvation, having been born again, the very first one would do that to all of us. And what hope would we have. We would have had life for a brief moment, only to return to death.

But thankfully, so wonderfully, He Who began a good work Will Complete It. Jesus Himself we deliver in that day blameless and pure. He is faithful, and He will do it.

And His means is recreation, a new man, a new kind of life. His life, in us. Forever.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:41 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:The scripture you posted from 1 Cor. 10:1-12 is describing the tedious journey the Hebrews undertook while en route to the land He had for them. They made the journey much more difficult than needed as He had provided the "cloud" of protection and provision on their behalf. Paul is warning the Corinthians that following the example of the Hebrews, they would make a 5-6 day journey into a 400 yr. journey unnecessarily.


Interesting. So vs 10 ("destroyed by the destroyer") is referencing a journey?


The context of the verses is indeed a warning using the example of the Israelites journey through the wilderness. Paul tells us the journey should be an example and admonishes:

* do not crave evil things (v6)
* do not be idolators (v7)
* do not act immorally (v8)
* do not try the Lord (v9)
* do not grumble (v10)

That's the context of the verses you posted. A comparison of the 400 yr. journey and behavior of the Israelites and an admonition to avoid their behaviors (on our journey.) :wink:

God didn't spare the angels (2 Pet 2:4), He didn't spare the Jews (Rom 11:20); and knowing of foolish virgins (Mt 25:1-13) you say He now spares them because of their "unnecessary journey"?


There were about 300 references in the OT prophesying the coming of the Messiah. The Jews didn't recognize Him as they expected Him to look like a King as they were accustomed to. If they come to a belief in Jesus as their Savior, they will become one body with the Gentile believers. He assures them that even in their temptations, God is faithful. He did not abandon His people even to the point of offering Himself as the perfect sacrifice cancelling out the certificate of debt.

Mt 25:11-13
Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.


I'm trying to stay on course by discussing OSAS topic. I'm not discussing universalism.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:42 pm

mark s wrote:Let me ask you . . . how many sins, of what kind, would be required for one to lose salvation? How strongly will God hold on to us?

What does it mean that nothing in all of creation can separate us from God's love for us through Jesus Christ?


I agree with your basic tenets of what born again is, but I still adhere that those OT Saints who made it to Paradise were born again in what God made available during that time. In Psalm 51 for example there is much we can learn about sin and here I'd like to point out the line where David says, 'Take not thy Holy Spirit from me'. Why would he say that if it were not possible? We know that King Saul had the Holy Spirit that operated in his life, at least at times. I would agree that the OT Saints did not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them the same way we can today, but we read in scripture where God removed His Holy Spirit from him.

When David came to grips with the great sin that he committed, he earnestly prayed, 'Take not thy Holy Spirit from me, and renew a right Spirit within me'.

It is so awesome that God gave us of His Spirit and created a new creature. He did give us a new nature, a divine nature because when He moves in, we are gonna change. It is glorious, but not be a barer of bad news, ( it may sound like bad news but if it the truth it can't be bad ), the sin nature does not go away. When we are born again the sin nature gives way to the divine nature, it becomes dormant.

When we read Romans 6,7, and 8, as you have mentioned six already a little, we come to understand the sin nature and how to be free from it. Paul struggled after he was born again with the sin nature. O wretched man that I am ... etc., you are familiar with it. He found that the things he wanted to do he did not do, and the things he did do, he did not want to do.

We can pass off the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit as being a permanent reality in a Christian's life. To a small degree after we learn how to live and overcome the flesh, the devil, and the world, we will still have those moments where our old man comes to life briefly. God's intent is that we live overcoming lives.

When our faith turns to anything other than Jesus and Him crucified, we enter into law. Not necessarily the Hebrew law, although there are many today that are adhering to this, but anything we make a law. The flesh wants to have credit where credit is not due. Most Christians today are trying to live out there walk with the Lord in the flesh. Many say they believe in Jesus and the cross, but they think it was only for salvation. Then they proceed to work for their salvation.

Bare with me a little more. Church attendance does not give us right standing with God. Reading the bible does not give us right standing with God. Praying does not give us right standing with God. Loving God does not give us right standing with God. Only the blood of Jesus washes our sins away. It is not the resurrection that gives us an overcoming life on a permanent basis. Yes, He was able to give us His Spirit, but when Jesus said while on the cross, 'it is finished', it was a done deal. The resurrection had to happen because the grave could not hold Him.

What was accomplished on the cross has become our permanent abundant life in Christ.

Thanks for your patience. I like to express this every chance I get.


As for your questions:

Willful sinning is the kind that will lead us to lose our salvation. Of course, as I mentioned in a previous post, only God will determine when to pull the plug. He knows our hearts. It is interesting to me that He killed Ananias and Saphira sp?, but then when Peter and John went to Samaria and the guy who practiced sorcery wanted to buy the power to lay hands on people so they could receive the Holy Spirit, He did not kill him.

Peter said, 'your money perish with you ......', but anyway, it is interesting to me.

You asked how strongly God will hold on to us. I think very strongly. His love is for the whole world and He died for the whole world. He died for us while we were yet sinners, how much more now that we are saved.

I think after some people lose their salvation they become hard in their hearts, others become broken and contrite. There is coming soon a great falling away. Many will lose their salvation at that time. Young people who go to college saved leave unsaved. The devil is out to steal, kill, and destroy. As my pastor likes to say, 'this is not tidily winks. The devil puts many things out in the world with one objective, to destroy the Saints of God's faith.

On God's love for us through Jesus Christ and that nothing can separate us from that love. I already mentioned that God loves the whole world. What can separate His love for the whole world? Is everyone going to heaven?

Appreciate you Mark
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Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:05 am

For me the issue isn't if we can loose our salvation once we receive it, the issue is whether or not the individual was truly converted or that they were a professor of salvation and were never truly converted.

There is a distinct difference with the believer prior to the cross and the believer after the cross. Arguments have been proffered as to where exactly the line of demarcation resides (as usual), but one must recognize the distinction.

Here is a link to blueletterbible of an article titled "The Riches of Grace in Christ", surely there are things Dr. Lewis Sperry Chaffer wrote that can be disagreed with, but unless one grasps the finished work of Christ and the implications of the believer's standing in Him, I believe that salvation will not be understood in the post cross economy. There is NO free pass to sin at will as we are accused of, this I believe is a straw man argument, address the real issue: Actually saved, or professing to be saved.

The Scripture declares the believer to be given an entirely different standing than those before the cross. Read the article and the Scripture references.
Mark

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:14 pm

Hi Mark F,

Sorry if what I wrote about sounded like a straw man argument. I didn't mean to use what I wrote in defense of what I believe about the possibility of loosing one's salvation. It was more of a quick explanation of the sin nature.

I see how it could be interpreted the way you took it.

Of course sin is not only admissible in the conversation about the possibility of losing one's salvation, it is the cause. Sin covers such a wide spectrum of actions.

As I mentioned earlier, it would be willful sinning that could lead to the loss of ones's salvation. We haven't seen a lot of persecution here in America yet to the shedding of blood or imprisonment, but when and if that should come, there may be many who will renounce the Lord. This would be one example.

The loosing of one's faith would be another example. When Jesus told Peter something like, 'Peter, the devil has desired to have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed that your faith would remain'.

We see how important it is that we maintain our faith in Jesus and what He said and what He did, especially at the cross.

But to the point of loosing our salvation, its not going to happen quickly. God will work with us before that point comes and after that point has arrived He will still try to bring us back.

In the case of one saving his life by denying the Lord, we know that Jesus told us that we would lose our life.

I believe there were some born again Jews in and around Jerusalem before what is called the diaspora or the scattering and fleeing of believers to other parts of the world to flee persecution, who were confused about the things they were experiencing in relation to how the unsaved were treating them. I know that there was a time when they had good standing with the people in so much that the Pharisees dare not mistreat them because they feared the people. But there seems to be a time in between the killing of James and Steven and when they had favor with the people.

This time doesn't have to be very long because we know how fickle people are. They praised and cheered Jesus and laid palm branches down and cried Hosanna in the highest, and five days later they crucified Him, so the lost can be swayed quickly.

I'm saying there may have been a time in between because the letter to the Hebrews was written to saved Jews, and the writer of Hebrews, me thinketh Paul, did a lot of encouraging which I think they needed because they were being discriminated against. I think people stopped buying goods from those believers who had businesses. I think some were let go from their jobs. We know that Paul took collections for them throughout the churches he established to bring back to Jerusalem to help them.

On a side note, one could say, 'did they not try to save their own life when they fled to safety'? I don't really see them fleeing in fear for their lives, as it says in Isa 52,
'For ye shall not go out with haste,
nor go by flight:
for the Lord will go before you;'

Back to topic, I think there were at least some believing Jews who thought seriously about going back into the world to escape the hardship they were experiencing. When we read in Heb 10:26-39
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith:but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Another thing the jews there had to deal with was the Judaizers who believed in Jesus as Messiah but also held to the law of Moses for salvation. These believers were not persecuted as were those who held to offense of the cross. It has been said that the reason Paul did not pen his name on the book of Hebrews is because he was not well received there because of his teaching and explanation of the meaning of the new covenant.

Time to turn in, God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:13 am

I rest with this,

Galatians 5:1-4; "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."
Mark

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:14 pm

:humm:
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:51 am

sacredcowbasher wrote: Another thing the jews there had to deal with was the Judaizers who believed in Jesus as Messiah but also held to the law of Moses for salvation. These believers were not persecuted as were those who held to offense of the cross. It has been said that the reason Paul did not pen his name on the book of Hebrews is because he was not well received there because of his teaching and explanation of the meaning of the new covenant.


So you are saying these Judaizers believed that Jesus was Messiah but also believed that keeping the law saved them?


To my understanding that is exactly how I am reading your defense of your belief that we can loose our salvation.

sacredcowbasher wrote:Of course sin is not only admissible in the conversation about the possibility of losing one's salvation, it is the cause. Sin covers such a wide spectrum of actions.

As I mentioned earlier, it would be willful sinning that could lead to the loss of ones's salvation.



To me that is what your saying. You are saved by faith but you stay saved by not breaking the law.
Mark

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:05 am

I'm sorry Mark for my lack of explanation in what I am trying to say.

I was writing what I believe to have been some really difficult times for the church in Jerusalem. What I wanted to say was how persecution and tribulation can lead one to lose their salvation.

In all of that, I had mentioned that the Judaizers felt that born again believers should keep the law of Moses to be saved along with believing in Jesus as Messiah. Of course I don't adhere to this. The Judaizers did believe that the keeping of the law was essential in ones salvation.

The Judaizers tried their best to undo what Paul had established because, in many cities where Paul founded a church, the Judaizers would come in behind him and try to discredit him and place burdens of the law on believers in Christ.

This is what lead to the Council at Jerusalem where, in the end, James wrote of only four things that the gentile church should abstain from. So the Council agreed that the burden of 'law' should not be placed upon the gentile church of God, but they did not quite go so far as to remove the law totally from their own practices.

I think we can see this when Peter removed himself from eating with gentile believers when others of his company approached him. Even Barnabas got up from eating with them and followed Peter's lead. Paul strongly rebuked him for doing this and said, 'if we who are Jews do not claim the need to keep the law, but hold that faith in Jesus Christ saves us, why do you want to place the law on gentiles'. (This may be a poor paraphrase, but it is close enough I hope).

Anyhow, I wasn't making a defense for the losing of ones salvation for mixing law with faith in what I wrote earlier, but how persecution could lead to it.

But since we are on the subject of mixing law with grace and faith; I believe this can also lead one to be lost and shipwrecked. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. This brings a curse upon the believer and it places us in to another gospel where we will be serving another Jesus.

Now the Lord deals with us where we are, and ignorance is an excuse for a while. I'm not saying that there won't be affects for believing the wrong thing, there will be. But God will deal with us to bring us to grace only and the true gospel, or right believing. Being willfully ignorant is worse and will bring us to shipwreck.

Denial can be a huge factor in a believer's life when God is trying to deal with us about how we are living. Let's remember the church of Laodicea which Jesus addressed in this manner:

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot:I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

There can only be two reasons why they didn't know their condition. Either they were in denial or they were being taught error.

Now Christians are to keep the moral law. We see throughout the writings of the apostles what the works of the flesh are, and we know that those that do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. The moral law was not done away with.

When we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, the man Christ Jesus.

If we deny Him, He will deny us before the Father.

If we willfully sin, we are sowing to the wind and we will reap the whirlwind.

Sin is an awful thing, it took Jesus to suffer as He did and go through what He did at the cross to address it.

You said Mark, that I said that not keeping the law can lead us to lose our salvation. No, its not not keeping the law, it is not having our faith in Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross. The battle that we fight is the good fight of faith.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Mark F on Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:12 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:You said Mark, that I said that not keeping the law can lead us to lose our salvation. No, its not not keeping the law, it is not having our faith in Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross. The battle that we fight is the good fight of faith.


You said sin causes us to loose our salvation, now you say it is not having faith in Jesus and what He did at the cross.

If you don't have faith in Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross you aren't saved to begin with, therefore how can you loose what you never possessed? This sounds like an unconverted church goer to me.

2 Tim 2:11-13
11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.

12
If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

13
If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.


I don't expect a reply, but suffice it to say that I don't see that it is possible for someone truly born again to become "unborn." I assert that those who you believe to have lost their salvation were never saved to begin with, they only professed to be saved. I am sure we are unable to rightly determine the true state of one's salvation except our own, and then only by Scripture.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Very busy week for me, so I'm sorry for my absence.

mark s wrote: . . . how many sins, of what kind, would be required for one to lose salvation?


Not sound mean spirited at all, but this is a pretty sad and depressing question. Since our Lord suffered and died for our sin, why would we even look at our walk as "I wonder how many sins I can commit?" Especially considering sin's ability to harden one's heart, and in that hardness of heart, one may find themselves in a state of unbelief by departing from the living God. To ask the question ("how many sins can I commit") seems that a person loves the Lord and loves the world (i.e. lukewarm); to me at least.

Heb 3:12-13
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:56 pm

mark s wrote:... in this Gospel book, it is not axiomatic that to be called a disciple is to be defined as "born again saved". They were called disciples even in their unbelief.


What's different today? Can the assumed disciple today be in a state of unbelief? If so, then wouldn't you say there's cause for concern (even if they believe in OSAS)?

mark s wrote:Something new has come. Something so far above the previous covenant that it cannot even be compared.


:a3:

We are all thankful for the blood, but are you saying the disciples of Christ were not under the new covenant?

Lk 22:20 - This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


mark s wrote:(I find it interesting that you put the ESV on the same level as The Message. To me they are very different. Nonetheless . . .)


Lol! I like ribbing my calvinist friends on the ESV version (the preferred version of calvinists). Of course, when they beat me at a round of golf, they rib me back that it was predestined!
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:10 pm

mark s wrote:Sin kills. There's no getting around that. So if sin can destroy your salvation, having been born again, the very first one would do that to all of us.


It's not sin per se that destroys salvation, but sin's ability to harden one's heart and lead to a state of unbelief.

Heb 3:12
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Rom 11:20
Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

Rom 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


We know that no one is righteous, and believing in Jesus, motivated by love; does this not evoke a response? The manifestation of a heart rendered to God, that's not my call, but the fruit of it is made evident (Eph 5).
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:There were about 300 references in the OT prophesying the coming of the Messiah. The Jews didn't recognize Him as they expected Him to look like a King as they were accustomed to. If they come to a belief in Jesus as their Savior, they will become one body with the Gentile believers. He assures them that even in their temptations, God is faithful. He did not abandon His people even to the point of offering Himself as the perfect sacrifice cancelling out the certificate of debt.

Mt 25:11-13
Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.


I'm trying to stay on course by discussing OSAS topic. I'm not discussing universalism.


:eek:

Umm... I'm pretty sure this is a different discussion. Only I will say that it's the wild olive tree that was grafted in and not the other way around (Rom 11:16-20)
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:28 pm

Mark F wrote:I rest with this,

Galatians 5:1-4; "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."


:a3:

Don't these passages disprove OSAS though? I mean, if the Galatian church were made up of OSAS folks (I shudder at the thought), Paul says "Christ will profit you nothing", "you have become estranged from Christ", "you have fallen from grace"?

Why say these things if OSAS were true?
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:02 pm

I don't mind responding Mark, but I'm thinking that I should have established a better foundation of truths before broaching the subject of the loss of one's salvation.

I will try to be brief and I'm sure others could say it more succinctly, but here goes.

I know we agree on what it takes for one to be saved. It is by grace through faith. I believe the word is plain in that God wants to save anyone who calls on Him. We believe when we hear the gospel and He gives us salvation. He gives us of His Spirit when we are saved. We can be filled or baptized later or at the same time.

Once one is saved, he or she then walks out that salvation. Sanctification or being set apart or made holy is both a process and a position. We are only made holy by faith and we are set apart by faith. The process comes with the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, convicting us of sin, and forming us into the image of Jesus.

All is done by faith in Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross. 'As you have received Him, so walk you in Him'.

Because Jesus fulfilled the law, and when He died, we died with Him; when He rose from the dead, we rose with Him into newness of life, we could be called law keepers in the sense that when we live by faith that works by love we are no longer law breakers.

Many Christians begin their walk in the Spirit and because it is not easy to deny one's self and all that goes along with that; because there are many churches that don't understand the sin nature or how we are to trust the Lord to live His life out in us without our having to add our works of the flesh, we begin to walk out our salvation in the flesh.

Many Christians are in bondage to Satan today and don't know how to get their joy back; how to get their peace back. Most churches tell them they need to try harder, read more of the bible and pray more etc.

Those who know to go to the Lord every time they sin and confess are forgiven and cleansed. Then we do the same things all over again. I am guilty as well, as I am still learning how to live. Paul said he didn't apprehend that for which he was apprehended, and he was finished with the work that Jesus gave him to do.

So not until we put off this tent will we be made perfect and glorified. But our faith can be made perfect. We read about it in the apostles writings. Our faith will come out like pure gold - that is perfect faith.

I say all this to establish where I'm coming from and what I have been taught and have come to understand that it is true.

I don't know if masses of people will lose their salvation during the great falling away, but it sounds like it will be so. As I mentioned earlier, I believe many young people go into college saved and leave college unsaved or lost. Will they come back to the Lord, yes, according to the word of God that says, train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart.

I have shown you Hebrews 10 and it is plainly written about willful sin. If you or those who hold to OSAS choose to not believe what you can see for yourselves, there is not much more to relate, but I don't mind trying to convince because I believe it is important. Correct doctrine is healthy for the body, just like us loving one another is important and healthy.

It is not really a chore for me to write these things. We are in the end of time and Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, wrinkle, or any such blemish; a glorious church. We are that church and we are getting shined up.

Appreciate both Marks
God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:13 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:Very busy week for me, so I'm sorry for my absence.

mark s wrote: . . . how many sins, of what kind, would be required for one to lose salvation?


Not sound mean spirited at all, but this is a pretty sad and depressing question. Since our Lord suffered and died for our sin, why would we even look at our walk as "I wonder how many sins I can commit?" Especially considering sin's ability to harden one's heart, and in that hardness of heart, one may find themselves in a state of unbelief by departing from the living God. To ask the question ("how many sins can I commit") seems that a person loves the Lord and loves the world (i.e. lukewarm); to me at least.

Heb 3:12-13
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


Hi BTM,

I'm thinking you are missing the spirit of my question.

I'm not asking how much can I get away with. I'm asking how much will it take for you to lose salvation?

This is not a question of permissibility. It is a question of theology. Considering that we are not even away, in my view, of many of our sins, and we are in denial over many more, how do we know?

Now . . . I think you answered my question anyway, that it's when the functional result of sin is the cessation of faith. When we no longer believe that God is our savior, and that Jesus died for me. Is that a correct understanding?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:20 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:... in this Gospel book, it is not axiomatic that to be called a disciple is to be defined as "born again saved". They were called disciples even in their unbelief.


What's different today? Can the assumed disciple today be in a state of unbelief? If so, then wouldn't you say there's cause for concern (even if they believe in OSAS)?

mark s wrote:Something new has come. Something so far above the previous covenant that it cannot even be compared.


:a3:

We are all thankful for the blood, but are you saying the disciples of Christ were not under the new covenant?

Lk 22:20 - This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


mark s wrote:(I find it interesting that you put the ESV on the same level as The Message. To me they are very different. Nonetheless . . .)


Lol! I like ribbing my calvinist friends on the ESV version (the preferred version of calvinists). Of course, when they beat me at a round of golf, they rib me back that it was predestined!


OK, I understand about the ESV. I didn't know that Calvinists prefer it. Thank you for clearing that up!

About "disciple", I was explaining the usage and therefore meaning of the word in the Gospel of John.

Being in a "state of unbelief", to me, means that someone has not been born again. Even if it looks like they had been. But John also explains that there are those among us who look so much like us we can't tell them apart until they leave us. It's not that they were saved, and became unsaved when they left, they left because they were not saved. John is very clear on that.

And no, the New Covenant was not established until Jesus died. Hebrews explains that. The death of the testator is required. The New Covenant was established in Jesus' blood.

This is why Jesus could say, Forgive, or you will not be forgiven. Paul would later say, under the New Covenant, forgive because you have been forgiven. One is acceptance based on performance, the other is performance as a result of acceptance.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:40 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Sin kills. There's no getting around that. So if sin can destroy your salvation, having been born again, the very first one would do that to all of us.


It's not sin per se that destroys salvation, but sin's ability to harden one's heart and lead to a state of unbelief.


So to be clear, any amount of sinfulness, if it does not cause a hardened heart, will not cost someone their salvation?

Again, this is not a question about permissibility, rather of theology. My question is to verify that you are saying that the commission of sin does not remove salvation, even in extreme amounts, but that sin can lead to a loss of faith, and the loss of faith becomes loss of salvation. This is correct?

Heb 3:12
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;


Keeping in mind the context, writing to Hebrews who were holding to the Old Covenant, and not coming into the New Covenant. The example of those who came out of Egypt, they met with God, but then didn't serve His as His Law required.

They were OK while the Old Covenant was in effect, but their failure to come into the New Covenant was due to their unbelief. They claimed to be holding to what saved them, but the writer informed them that they were disbelieving what would actually save them.

Rom 11:20
Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.


The nation. Some individual Jews were still saved.
Rom 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


And so all Israel will be saved.

We know that no one is righteous, and believing in Jesus, motivated by love; does this not evoke a response? The manifestation of a heart rendered to God, that's not my call, but the fruit of it is made evident (Eph 5).


Of course it does. And we do respond. But there remains the fact that some appear saved, and are not, while meanwhile, we have repeated reassurance that it is God who holds on to us, not we holding on to Him.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:52 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
Mark F wrote:I rest with this,

Galatians 5:1-4; "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."


:a3:

Don't these passages disprove OSAS though? I mean, if the Galatian church were made up of OSAS folks (I shudder at the thought), Paul says "Christ will profit you nothing", "you have become estranged from Christ", "you have fallen from grace"?

Why say these things if OSAS were true?


Look at what he says, that we "eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith".

Would this be positional righteousness (what God has adjudicated), or practical righteousness (how we live)?

Romans 8 tells us we've already been justified (declared righteous). Ephesians 4 tells use we have been created in righteousness. Many passages tell us we have been justified. So are we waiting to be justified, declared righteous, or has God already done this?

But look to Colossians 2, towards the end, where God says that trying to keep rules is no use in fighting the indulgence of the flesh. How does this compare with what Paul wrote to the Galatian church?

Look at the context of Galatians. Paul is asking the question that having started in faith, are you now trying to become finished by works? And his argument is that this will not work. Faith is the start, and faith is the finish. We cannot count on works to saved us, or complete us. It's faith all the way.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:11 pm

At what point then is someone made alive? Mark F


All men were made "alive" (right/righteous before God) during the "year of the Lord's favor" to be made "eternally alive" IF they believe in the Son.


Was anyone born again - regenerated - before Jesus' resurrection? Mark S


Yes. Hebrews 11. The New Cov was in effect immediately after Adam sinned and was banished from the garden.

There is a distinct difference with the believer prior to the cross and the believer after the cross. Arguments have been proffered as to where exactly the line of demarcation resides (as usual), but one must recognize the distinction. Mark f


Yes, the difference is in the order of salvation. The saints before the Cross were born of the Spirit first and were awaiting the birth of water on the Cross, at which time their salvation process became complete.

For saints after the Cross, the order is reversed, i.e., the birth of water first, then the birth of the Spirit.

What of the thief on the cross? BTM

What covenant was he under when he died? When did the New Covenant begin? I do not see a statement in Scripture that he was born again, or not born again, only that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise.

So . . . where did Jesus go when He died? mark s

We know from Ephesians 2 that we, in the New Covenant, are seated together with Jesus in the heavenly realm.

What about the thief, is that were he was? mark s


The thief was saved under the New Cov. The provisions of the New Cov were made available/began in the garden.

When Jesus was dying He said He was commending His spirit unto the Father.

Yes, the thief was/is seated with Jesus in the heavenly realm.

Mt 25:11-13
Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.



The virgins who did not have the oil (Spirit) were not saved, but were called "virgins" because they (all men) had been cleansed from sin on the Cross. However, they had not believed the Gospel, and thus the Lord did not know them.

My answers to the above questions/comments are based on my understanding of the basic covenantal framework God has used to execute his salvation plan. I believe a discussion on the two covenants involved will help clear most of the questions that have been raised on this thread. Otherwise I fear we'll continue to go back and forth on this topic without arriving to the biblical truth.

I hope to start a thread on this ... tomorrow, maybe. :-)

:blessyou:

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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:15 pm

mark s wrote:Now . . . I think you answered my question anyway, that it's when the functional result of sin is the cessation of faith. When we no longer believe that God is our savior, and that Jesus died for me. Is that a correct understanding?


Well, even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). But do we tremble or have reverence for God? That's a personal question that requires self examination. A lot has to happen to come to a state of unbelief, but we are warned about the possibility in Scripture.

Heb 3:14-15
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

In Phil 3:17, Paul tells the church to follow his example; the example of not counting himself as already apprehended but to press forward toward the upward call of God in Jesus (Phil 3:12-14). Since OSAS folks today fail in following his example by counting themselves as apprehended, what can be said of them? Why press forward if OSAS were true? But "we're saved by faith and not works!" OSAS folks proclaim. Amen! And yet...

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? - Jm 2:20
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:38 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Now . . . I think you answered my question anyway, that it's when the functional result of sin is the cessation of faith. When we no longer believe that God is our savior, and that Jesus died for me. Is that a correct understanding?


Well, even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). But do we tremble or have reverence for God? That's a personal question that requires self examination. A lot has to happen to come to a state of unbelief, but we are warned about the possibility in Scripture.

Heb 3:14-15
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."


Hi BTM,

Thank you for bringing up this passage. I love this passage!

This is an excellent example within this particular discussion. In the hundreds of verses I've examined that proponents of a born again/die again point of view use to support that view, I've never found one that actually supports it, and this one is no exception.

"Have become partakers" is a perfect tense verb. The perfect tense denotes an action having occurred in the past, with continuing result. An easy example is a bell. You have just made a bell, and it is an unrung bell. It has never been rung. Then you ring it. The bell has been rung. This is like the perfect tense. Now it is a rung bell. It can never go back to being an unrung bell.

Paul used the perfect tense when he said, "Have I not seen the risen Lord?" He is one who has seen the risen Lord. And it can never be said if him that he has not seen Jesus risen. He has.

Here, you have become partakers of Christ - IF - how do we know whether you have become a partaker of Christ? - if you hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

Holding your confidence to the end is the earmark of those who have become partakers (perfect tense - completed action whose result continues) of Christ.

Not holding your confidence is the earmark that you had not become a partaker of Christ.

And so this harmonizes with John's description, they were not of us, which is why they went out from us. They do not go out to become no longer of us. they go out because then never were of us.

Well, even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). But do we tremble or have reverence for God? That's a personal question that requires self examination. A lot has to happen to come to a state of unbelief, but we are warned about the possibility in Scripture.


What is the faith that saves us? How do you define "saving faith"?

In Phil 3:17, Paul tells the church to follow his example; the example of not counting himself as already apprehended but to press forward toward the upward call of God in Jesus (Phil 3:12-14). Since OSAS folks today fail in following his example by counting themselves as apprehended, what can be said of them? Why press forward if OSAS were true? But "we're saved by faith and not works!" OSAS folks proclaim. Amen! And yet...

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? - Jm 2:20


We press forward to the upward call of God. Isn't that what he said? We keep trying to do better. Just because I believe OSAS, I'm not trying to do better??

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:39 pm

mark s wrote:Being in a "state of unbelief", to me, means that someone has not been born again. Even if it looks like they had been. But John also explains that there are those among us who look so much like us we can't tell them apart until they leave us. It's not that they were saved, and became unsaved when they left, they left because they were not saved. John is very clear on that.


Can you show me where John is "very clear" on this?

2 Pet 2:1-2
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

2 Pet 2:13-16
They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

2 Pet 2:20-21
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Since we know that a believer can again be entangled and overcome by the pollutions of the world (and it would be better to not have known the way of righteousness), I fail to see how OSAS can be true. In fact, I call it poisonous doctrine. People today are overcome by the pollutions of the world while standing on the sandy foundation of OSAS.
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Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Postby BeTheMoon on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:51 pm

mark s wrote:
BeTheMoon wrote:
mark s wrote:Sin kills. There's no getting around that. So if sin can destroy your salvation, having been born again, the very first one would do that to all of us.


It's not sin per se that destroys salvation, but sin's ability to harden one's heart and lead to a state of unbelief.


So to be clear, any amount of sinfulness, if it does not cause a hardened heart, will not cost someone their salvation?

Again, this is not a question about permissibility, rather of theology. My question is to verify that you are saying that the commission of sin does not remove salvation, even in extreme amounts, but that sin can lead to a loss of faith, and the loss of faith becomes loss of salvation. This is correct?


In permissibility or theology, is there a need to even go there? I mean, what's wrong with "abide in Me" without looking for loopholes?
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