Once Saved Always Saved

[extravagantchristian]

The entire Bible is filled with hope for backsliders. Hope that they can be forgiven and start again. But this ONE part of scripture seems to say that we CAN lose our salvation...

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

But, Maybe there's another explanation for these verses? Is it possible that he's really saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE to lose your salvation? Because if you read the entire chapter, he's rebuking them because they keep on teaching repentance, so maybe it's like, if we were to watch the 700 club every day and say the sinners prayer everyday to get saved, maybe that's what they were doing? Praying to get saved over and over again and maybe he was explaining that it's impossible to be born again twice? Does this seem like a good interpretation? I just wanted to hear other opinions.

The Bible does say:
His seed remains
The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable
I will never leave you or forsake you
God is not willing that any would perish but that ALL would come to repentance
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

PS. I don't believe that these people who were once enlightened weren't born again. I realize that's one way to look at it but I don't think that's the case.

[mark s]

Hi EC,

I think one of the keys here is in verse 9:

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So then these are not the things that accompany salvation. Therefore the writer is speaking of something different.

This description would apply to those who witnessed Jesus' miracles, even performed miracles themselves (think of the 70 whom Jesus sent out), who heard His teaching, where even healed themselves.

The letter to the Hebrews was written to the Jews who were having a problem transitioning from the the Old Covenant to the New.

Remember what John wrote about Jesus (John ch. 1), that He was the true light that enlightens every man. They saw the light, preferred darkness, because they did evil works.

But again, to go back to verse 9, I think the writer is saying, "but I'm not talking about you, since I believe you are saved".

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Sonbeam]

I agree with what you said Mark. Those the passage is talking about have not been born again. To be “saved” is to be born again of God’s Spirit which brings eternal life for the new creation in Christ. The definition of eternal life is that it never ends. Plus God’s gifts are irrevocable. This is double assurance.

However, I have a problem with the writer’s assertion or conclusion that it is impossible for those who fall away to be brought again to repentance.

Nothing is impossible with God Who is the One Who draws men to Himself. And as long as it is called Today, anyone may freely come before God’s throne and ask for the gift of His Spirit.

sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

I wish that people would argue from a "kainos" perspective rather than from a "neo" perspective when speaking of the covenant and salvation.

Ephesians 4:23 tells us to be "renewed" in the spirit of our mind, and 4:24 then goes on to tell us to put on the renewed nature, which is now in the nature of God in righteousness and holiness.

The issue is that we want a "neo" experience without the hard work of being "kainos" into his likeness. If we do not do the "kainos" process then we will not be saved because the old self will not be changed as we walk with Christ in our journey to salvation.

[Sonbeam]

If we look at Eph 4:23 that you mentioned Jay and take it in the context of the chapter, we see that in Eph 4:30 the writer says something that is extremely important for born again believers (Christians) to remember:

We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

This tells us that our status now and future redemption is secure because it is the Holy Spirit who will do the “hard work” of renewing our minds to present us blameless before the Father.

Here is a great teaching titled “Blessed Self-Forgetfulness --True growth happens when we take our eyes off ourselves”. By Tullian Tchividjian

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/201 ... ml?start=1

I pointed to this some time ago here, but I think it is worth taking a look at it again.

sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Another very good verse to look at as far as our Salvation is concerned is:

Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I too struggled with whether or not Once Saved Always Saved was indeed True. I no longer struggle with this issue.

[Sonbeam]

We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Another very good verse to look at as far as our Salvation is concerned is:

Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I too struggled with whether or not Once Saved Always Saved was indeed True. I no longer struggle with this issue.

Phil 1:6 is a bedrock we can stand on to be secure about our eternal status and destination in Christ. Thank you for citing it Mr. Baldy.

So glad to hear you've apprehended this truth!


sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Clearly, it is impossible to bring such a one back to repentance.
Consequently, should a brother or sister repent, this verse could not have been applicable to their situation, else they could not have been brought back to repentance.

Keith

[BeTheMoon]

Here is a great teaching titled “Blessed Self-Forgetfulness --True growth happens when we take our eyes off ourselves”. By Tullian Tchividjian

Tullian had an affair...
http://macarthur.charismanews.com/us/50 ... toral-post

The Bible says...

1 Cor 6:9-8
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Tullian says he's seeking God...
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/t ... /57824.htm

I pray his seeking of God includes repentance so that he can come back to the Lord and have restoration in Him. Of course, that doesn't mean that he will not reap what he has sown.

It begs the question: If Tullian got in a car accident and died while in his adulterous relationship, are you saying he would have inherited the kingdom of God (once saved always saved)? If so, are you also saying that Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) is wrong?

[BeTheMoon]

Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I too struggled with whether or not Once Saved Always Saved was indeed True. I no longer struggle with this issue.

A beautiful verse indeed! Paul has confidence in God's ability to perfect a good work. To that we can all say Praise the Lord! But isn't there another party involved? What about the believer?

Heb 3:12-15
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."[/b]

The writer of Hebrews (personally I think it's Paul), warns the "brethren" about "unbelief" and "departing from God". If OSAS were true, why warn the brethren? Proponents of OSAS (calvinist, presbyterian, reformed, etc) provide no such warning. I find this non-alignment to be life threatening for the Christian that heeds such teachings.

[Sonbeam]

Here is a great teaching titled “Blessed Self-Forgetfulness --True growth happens when we take our eyes off ourselves”. By Tullian Tchividjian

Tullian had an affair...
http://macarthur.charismanews.com/us/50 ... toral-post

Hi BTM,

No, I didn’t know that Tullian had an affair. That is sad. I hope he and his wife turn to our Lord without any reservations for He is ready to heal their wounds, restore their marriage, and bring them into a closer relationship with and dependence upon Him.

But does sin (and we really should also have a discussion in another thread on “sin” under the New Cov) disqualify a believer from proclaiming God’s Word/Truths? If so all of us are disqualified from ever uttering the Word of God.

Thankfully the Word of God always remains true. It is never nullified of its power by our missteps. It always fulfills the purpose for which the Lord sends IT. Isa 55:11

I have no doubt that Tullian had had other “sins” when he wrote the above mentioned article. I have no doubt that every other preacher does too when they preach. How about us when we give the Word of God to someone?

And yes, when pastors/elders “sins” are made public, their witness definitely suffers, and by extension, belief in the truthfulness of the Word of God because of the flawed messenger. Therefore, resignation from their positions is definitely appropriate then.

More on the rest of your post soon.





sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

The Bible says...
1 Cor 6:9-8
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Tullian is not one of the unrighteous. He's one of the "sinner-saints."

1Cor. 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Tullian says he's seeking God...

Whatever that means....

It begs the question: If Tullian got in a car accident and died while in his adulterous relationship, are you saying he would have inherited the kingdom of God (once saved always saved)? If so, are you also saying that Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) is wrong?

Paul isn't wrong, but often our understanding is.

I kinda lost respect for Tullian since he didn't just confess his own sin, but seemingly accused his wife for his adultery since she had an affair first. He, after all, had to find solace somewhere....

At any rate, it is right that he stepped down.

[BeTheMoon]

I have no doubt that Tullian had had other “sins” when he wrote the above mentioned article. I have no doubt that every other preacher does too when they preach. How about us when we give the Word of God to someone?

If we say we're sinless we deceive ourselves (1 Jn 1:8), but we can sin less and less as we reckon the old man/woman dead and alive in Christ (Rom 6:11). Otherwise, we become hypocrites of whom Christ most definitely has something to say (Mt 23).

Mt 15:7-9
Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "

1 Pet 2:1-3
Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

[BeTheMoon]

The Bible says...
1 Cor 6:9-8
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Tullian is not one of the unrighteous. He's one of the "sinner-saints."

1Cor. 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Not trying to start beef. I know I haven't been on the board for quite a long time, and all of a sudden I come back and bring up the OSAS thing. Sheesh, what nerve! I pray I don't come off as arrogant to you and the beloved readers.



About the "sinner-saint" issue, does this mean that a former homosexual and sodomite that has fallen back into that lifestyle can inherit the kingdom of God? When Paul says 'such were some of you' we can all praise the Lord because that is some of us today! But doesn't this indicate a forward momentum (dead in sin and then alive in Christ) rather than a regression in the faith?

If OSAS were true, why would Jesus say to sin no more (Jn 8:11, Jn 5:14)?

[BeTheMoon]

I kinda lost respect for Tullian since he didn't just confess his own sin, but seemingly accused his wife for his adultery since she had an affair first. He, after all, had to find solace somewhere....

Agreed.

This may sound weird coming from a guy (yes, I'm a dude everyone), but men aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Considering the battlefield today, many have their armor down exposing their own folly by the works of the flesh. How can I expect growth by fulfilling the lust of the flesh? I say this with humility and sobriety.

And yet we have "pastors" such as Mark Driscoll (another reformed guy, but I digress) who says men have problems with pornography because wives have let themselves go. Sick! I say, "beware of the mutilation!" To make it worse we have "men" who agree with this garbage and shout "amen!" Meanwhile, wives are to "be submissive" and take all this garbage??!!!

The condition of the church today saddens me. I say this with all due respect to my Lord because it's His church. Men gather for "study" and read something from the best-sellers list while the true "instruction in righteousness" remains closed at home on the shelf.

I know I'm way off topic, but I've seen broken marriages, broken families, broken wives, husbands, kids, etc; we've all seen it. It's the world we live in. We can look at the world, look at the church, and see no difference.

I'll shut up now. I love you guys.

[mark s]

The writer of Hebrews (personally I think it's Paul), warns the "brethren" about "unbelief" and "departing from God". If OSAS were true, why warn the brethren? Proponents of OSAS (calvinist, presbyterian, reformed, etc) provide no such warning. I find this non-alignment to be life threatening for the Christian that heeds such teachings.

Paul's, or whomever's, brothers were the Jews. Brothers according to the flesh, as he puts it in Romans, I think.

They were OK with God under the first covenant, but if they failed to accept the new covenant, they would be departing from God.

So that if they sinned after that, they they could not just go back and offer another goat, as if Jesus' blood was no better than that.


Colossians 3:1-3 is a prophecy, that if you have been born again, you will be revealed in glory with Jesus. If that fails to happen for even one person who died with Christ, then that prophecy is unfulfilled, and the Bible is wrong. But it will not fail.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Not trying to start beef. I know I haven't been on the board for quite a long time, and all of a sudden I come back and bring up the OSAS thing. Sheesh, what nerve!

I don't see a debate or difference of opinion as "starting a beef" or an argument as some do. I see it as a healthy exchange of ideas that lead to expanding our understanding of others and their view of certain scriptures. That can't be a bad thing.

About the "sinner-saint" issue, does this mean that a former homosexual and sodomite that has fallen back into that lifestyle can inherit the kingdom of God? When Paul says 'such were some of you' we can all praise the Lord because that is some of us today! But doesn't this indicate a forward momentum (dead in sin and then alive in Christ) rather than a regression in the faith?

Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

We will struggle with our flesh; i.e carnal nature until Jesus comes. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Paul recognized the struggle. Even Isaiah admitted he was a man of unclean lips and needed them to be purged. I don't have the scripture right now, but you can find it.

There is no one who is righteous outside of the righteousness provided us by Christ.

Maybe we can see the grace of God if we use the example of an alcoholic rather than a pedophile or homosexual since we have a strong aversion to those particular sins. An alcoholic joins AAA and stays sober for years. Then as an escape following a tragic event, falls off the wagon. He drinks endlessly for months and then returns to sobriety. This pattern may occur over and over during his lifetime but after failure, he gets up and continues to "run the race."

What do you think?

If OSAS were true, why would Jesus say to sin no more (Jn 8:11, Jn 5:14)?

Do some research on John 8:11. The NASB has it in brackets which indicates it was not found in any of the original manuscripts but inserted by a scribe. Most scholars agree that it's possible it actually occurred, but nevertheless is not found in earliest manuscripts. I know that believers love the "go and sin no more" and the "throw the first stone" advice, but.....

As far as John 5:14, I think what Jesus is saying is that there is a particular sin that caused this sickness and the admonition is to not sin in that likeness or something worse may happen. Jesus, after all, would know that no one is or can be sinless while in this body. He alone claims that ability.

[BeTheMoon]

Maybe we can see the grace of God if we use the example of an alcoholic rather than a pedophile or homosexual since we have a strong aversion to those particular sins. An alcoholic joins AAA and stays sober for years. Then as an escape following a tragic event, falls off the wagon. He drinks endlessly for months and then returns to sobriety. This pattern may occur over and over during his lifetime but after failure, he gets up and continues to "run the race."

What do you think?

I think it's a gamble knowing that Christ will return as a thief in the night (2 Pet 3:10-14).

2 Pet 3:14-18
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Having the diligence to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; this exhortation will always apply until He comes. Of course, understanding that our righteousness is filthy rags.

[Sonbeam]

It begs the question: If Tullian got in a car accident and died while in his adulterous relationship, are you saying he would have inherited the kingdom of God (once saved always saved)?

Yes, absolutely. And this is because: if Tullian has met (as determined and known only by God) the only requirement that God has stipulated men must meet under the New Covenant, i.e., believe in the One He has sent (John 6:29), then God has given him eternal life (an irrevocable gift) as Jesus promised in John 3:15-16. And eternal life is life that never ends.

If so, are you also saying that Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) is wrong?

I think Mark and Abiding have answered this question.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

The Bible says...
1 Cor 6:9-8
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Tullian is not one of the unrighteous. He's one of the "sinner-saints."

I would word this differently Abiding. Christians have only one identity: new creations in Christ who are children of God. And that doesn't change when they sin.

If Tullian is a child of God, and I too believe he is, then he is a saint who has sinned.

sonbeam

[BeTheMoon]

It begs the question: If Tullian got in a car accident and died while in his adulterous relationship, are you saying he would have inherited the kingdom of God (once saved always saved)?

Yes, absolutely. And this is because: if Tullian has met (as determined and known only by God) the only requirement that God has stipulated men must meet under the New Covenant, i.e., believe in the One He has sent (John 6:29), then God has given him eternal life (an irrevocable gift) as Jesus promised in John 3:15-16. And eternal life is life that never ends.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I read "no adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God", and I take that for what it says (while praying that Tullian repents).

1 Cor 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were (not are) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

You bring up belief, praise the Lord for our belief in Him! But..

Heb 3:12-13
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Rom 11:20-23
Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

...can a believer come to a state of unbelief? I say yes through the deceitfulness of sin (Heb 3:13). Why is eternal life "irrevocable" when we can be cut off (Rom 11:22)?

[mark s]

Ahem . . .

. . . didn't want this part missed . . .

Colossians 3:1-3 is a prophecy, that if you have been born again, you will be revealed in glory with Jesus. If that fails to happen for even one person who died with Christ, then that prophecy is unfulfilled, and the Bible is wrong. But it will not fail.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

It begs the question: If Tullian got in a car accident and died while in his adulterous relationship, are you saying he would have inherited the kingdom of God (once saved always saved)?

Yes, absolutely. And this is because: if Tullian has met (as determined and known only by God) the only requirement that God has stipulated men must meet under the New Covenant, i.e., believe in the One He has sent (John 6:29), then God has given him eternal life (an irrevocable gift) as Jesus promised in John 3:15-16. And eternal life is life that never ends.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I read "no adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God", and I take that for what it says (while praying that Tullian repents).

1 Cor 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were (not are) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

You bring up belief, praise the Lord for our belief in Him! But..

Heb 3:12-13
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Rom 11:20-23
Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

...can a believer come to a state of unbelief? I say yes through the deceitfulness of sin (Heb 3:13). Why is eternal life "irrevocable" when we can be cut off (Rom 11:22)?

Romans 9-11 is about people groups, in my understanding, not about individuals.

Take for instance, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. Not that specific individuals descended from Esau can't be saved, rather, God would see to it that the nation (Edomites) would not be successful as a people.

But even so . . . let us say for a moment that theoretically someone who has been born again "came to a state of unbelief" (something I don't think actually happens, but let's say it did). Would that mean that they would cease to be born again? Become "un-born"?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

Ahem . . .

. . . didn't want this part missed . . .

Colossians 3:1-3 is a prophecy, that if you have been born again, you will be revealed in glory with Jesus. If that fails to happen for even one person who died with Christ, then that prophecy is unfulfilled, and the Bible is wrong. But it will not fail.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I underlined the "if" in your post. The first word in Col 3:1 is "if" which speaks of the conditionality. Vs 2 is the exhortation to "set your mind on things above". The entire chapter is an exhortation to die (vs 3, 9, 10), and the final verse (25) is quite sobering especially in light of 1:21-23 of the same letter to the church.

[BeTheMoon]

Romans 9-11 is about people groups, in my understanding, not about individuals.

People groups of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

Take for instance, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. Not that specific individuals descended from Esau can't be saved, rather, God would see to it that the nation (Edomites) would not be successful as a people.

It is true that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion (Rom 9:15 and Ex 33:19). And yet we have another promise of God! That He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments (Ex 20:6, Jn 14:15).

This is a very personal heart matter between a person and the living God! For we also know that Esau was a fornicator and godless person who fell short of the grace of God (Heb 12:15-16).

But even so . . . let us say for a moment that theoretically someone who has been born again "came to a state of unbelief" (something I don't think actually happens, but let's say it did). Would that mean that they would cease to be born again? Become "un-born"?

Not unborn, but under the law (Rom 2:3-16) which brings about wrath (Rom 4:15). BUT...

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul (Heb 10:39)!

[mark s]

Ahem . . .

. . . didn't want this part missed . . .

Colossians 3:1-3 is a prophecy, that if you have been born again, you will be revealed in glory with Jesus. If that fails to happen for even one person who died with Christ, then that prophecy is unfulfilled, and the Bible is wrong. But it will not fail.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I underlined the "if" in your post. The first word in Col 3:1 is "if" which speaks of the conditionality. Vs 2 is the exhortation to "set your mind on things above". The entire chapter is an exhortation to die (vs 3, 9, 10), and the final verse (25) is quite sobering especially in light of 1:21-23 of the same letter to the church.

OK, but the "if" is "if we've died with Him". Not "if we stay in good favor", or however you want to word it. The per-requisite is to have died with Jesus, which, we know from Romans 6, is part of being born again. If anyone who has died with Jesus fails to appear with Him glorified, then this verse is not true. Therefore it is impossible that there would be anyone who was born again that will not appear with Jesus in that day. Which means it is impossible that someone could lose their salvation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

Indeed, if we've died with Him!

The problem lies with not reckoning the old man dead (Rom 6:11). There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Rom 8:1).

Gal 5:17-21
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[mark s]

To be clear, I don't believe Col 3:1 is referring to "reckoning the old man dead", I think it talks about us being co-crucified with Christ, would you agree?

[BeTheMoon]

Of course! But keep reading to vs 3 (For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God). Would you agree that not recking the old man dead poses problems for the Christian? The co-crucifixion reference from Gal 2:20 also says: it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

Only the dead can be resurrected.

[mark s]

Of course! But keep reading to vs 3 (For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God). Would you agree that not recking the old man dead poses problems for the Christian? The co-crucifixion reference from Gal 2:20 also says: it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

Only the dead can be resurrected.

Yes it causes problems. If we allow the old man to become active, it results in sin, lost service to others, and lost rewards for ourselves.

But if we're talking about those who died in Christ, is this not those who are described in Romans 6 as being baptized into His death? And if we've died with Him, we've been buried with His, and His resurrection is our new life, do we agree on these?

And if we do, then aren't we saying that this verse in Colossians is talking about we who are born again?

So then to say that if you have died with Christ, you will appear with him in glory, this means that all who are born again, will, in fact, at the end of it all, appear with Him in glory.

Now, to be born again is a different matter from living a sinless life. The works of the flesh still come through. Our battle is to let that be less and less as Christ is formed within us, as we are transformed into His image. I do believe that we are to reckon the old man dead, but only because that actually represents our true nature. The old man is in fact dead, having been put to death on the cross.

It's like Paul wrote in Romans 7, So it is no longer me, but the sin that lives in me" (who does that which I hate). In having crucified us with Christ, God has freed us from our sins, and therefore can say, there is no condemnation, we will appear with him in glory, when we see him we will be like him, and many more I could mention.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

To everything you wrote I say AMEN!!! But the themes of eternal security don't end in Romans 7, 8 or 9. Keep reading to chap 11. Vs 2-5 in light of 1Kings 19; and vs 13-22.

[mark s]

To everything you wrote I say AMEN!!! But the themes of eternal security don't end in Romans 7, 8 or 9. Keep reading to chap 11. Vs 2-5 in light of 1Kings 19; and vs 13-22.

Hi BTM,

I'd have to say that the Colossians passage is very plainly and clearly stated, and so any other passage must harmonize with it.

As to the passages you referenced:

God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

(Romans 11:2-5 ESV)

And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” He said, “I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.” And the LORD said to him, “Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus. And when you arrive, you shall anoint Hazael to be king over Syria. And Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint to be king over Israel, and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint to be prophet in your place. And the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael shall Jehu put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha put to death. Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

The Call of Elisha

So he departed from there and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen in front of him, and he was with the twelfth. Elijah passed by him and cast his cloak upon him. And he left the oxen and ran after Elijah and said, “Let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow you.” And he said to him, “Go back again, for what have I done to you?” And he returned from following him and took the yoke of oxen and sacrificed them and boiled their flesh with the yokes of the oxen and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he arose and went after Elijah and assisted him.

(1 Kings 19:13-21 ESV)

I'm not sure what you are referencing in regard to whether having been born again that we can spiritually die again. Could you explain a bit?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

A remnant among the elect. 7000 in the days of Elijah, and _______ in the "days of Elijah".

[mark s]

A remnant among the elect. 7000 in the days of Elijah, and _______ in the "days of Elijah".

But then the elect referred to the nation of Israel. The remnant were those who were faithful. And so it was in Paul's time, that tho not all Israel were believers, still there was a remnant.

But I still don't see how this relates to whether the born again can spiritually die again.



Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

A remnant among the elect. 7000 in the days of Elijah, and _______ in the "days of Elijah".

But then the elect referred to the nation of Israel. The remnant were those who were faithful. And so it was in Paul's time, that tho not all Israel were believers, still there was a remnant.

But I still don't see how this relates to whether the born again can spiritually die again.



Love in Christ,
Mark

Rom 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In the OT among the elect ("nation of Israel"), there was a remnant ("of those who were faithful").
In the NT among the elect (according to the election of grace), there is also a remnant (of the faithful).

So can the elect spiritually die again?

Rom 11:20-23
Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

...Through unbelief, yes.

Heb 3:12-13
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

I think every Christian (myself included) needs to see sin for what it is and also what it does to us. It hardens our hearts.

Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15)
Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:32)
Pharaoh sinned more and hardened his heart (Ex 9:34)
The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 10:27) - Judgement

1 Pet 5:8
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

What I like about OSAS is that I don't have to be sober and on alert. Unfortunately, OSAS is not true. If I have not love for truth, then I may be under strong delusion to believe the lie (2 Thes 2:11).

[Mr Baldy]

OSAS is not true

Hi BTM,

Has anyone shown you this (John 6:35-40):

35) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36) But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

ALL that the Father gives Jesus WILL COME

Also - John 10:26-30

26) But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30) I and the Father are one.”

Not only do we who believe in Christ Come to Him, because we hear His Voice - NO one can pluck those who belong to Christ from His Hand as well - He and the Father are One.

I use to have problems with OSAS as well - that is until I read the aforementioned passages of Scripture. They spoke to my heart and CLEARLY showed me that OSAS is very much TRUE.

[BeTheMoon]

But is one able to wander away?

[Mr Baldy]

But is one able to wander away?

Hi BTW,

Yes absolutely - but a True Believer cannot stay away. Scripture mentions this in Romans 3:23 -25:

23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God , 24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

And this - Romans 3:10-12:

10) as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;12) All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good,There is not even one.”

Even when we stray - as we all do, we don't remain in Sin.

1 John 8-10 says this:

8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Finally, and I believe someone has already shared Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

When we give our lives to Christ - the Holy Spirit of God SEALS us until the day of redemption.

[BeTheMoon]

Finally, and I believe someone has already shared Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

When we give our lives to Christ - the Holy Spirit of God SEALS us until the day of redemption.

A beautiful passage, indeed, of which every believer can shout, "AMEN!" But there are more words surrounding this verse...

Eph 4:25 - 5:6
Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another. "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil. Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you. Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Sons of disobedience? Does this identify a kinship? Does not judgement begin in the household of God?

1 Pet 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

[BeTheMoon]

As a side note, I find the "resurgence" of OSAS doctrine through neo-calvinist movements (i.e. The Gospel Coalition, Tim Keller, John Piper, Matt Chandler, Mark Driscoll, Mark Dever, etc) while at a time where the works of the flesh are very evident in the church today to be quite the coincidence.

Where some proclaim OSAS, I say repent and move on to perfection.

[mark s]

So then, what is the answer towards Colossians 3? Those who died with Christ will be revealed with Him in glory. This is, again, plainly stated.

If in fact some who have died with Jesus do not appear with Him in glory, instead having died again, "broken off" (were that to refer to individual people, rather than people groups, though the entire context within chapters 9-11 is people groups), then that fact would render this Scripture untrue.

Since the Scriptures are true, then it would have to be that this verse actually means something else. In what way can it mean something else, and not that we, having died with Him, will appear with Him?

Love in Christ,
Mark

PS . . . as I have more time, I'd like to go back and respond to some of these other points. But the fact is, we use plainly stated verses to interpret and understand those that could be viewed in various ways. This verse, in my estimation, can only be understood in one way, as the wording is so simple, straightforward, and plain.

[BeTheMoon]

Does this mean that we are to dismiss teachings to people-groups? If so, are Gentiles to dismiss Rom 7, James, Hebrews?

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[mark s]

No, we never dismiss anything, but we are to apply them correctly.

In Malachi, God said, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. Paul quotes this in Romans 9, of course. But Malachi goes on to explain what this means. It means that the purposes of the nation will by thwarted by God. It does not mean that no descendant of Esau can ever be saved.

It's the same thing with Israel in Romans 9-11. The natural branches were broken off so that the wild branches could be grafted in. But that did not mean that no Jews could be saved. Some could. The nation was cast away (not forever, of course), so the gentiles could be included directly - grafted in (not having to become Jews first to approach God). But don't think that the gentile nations can't be broken off just the same. This is not teaching that having been given eternal life, having been born of God, having an inheritance promise, having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and all this done through grace, and not based on our behavior, that we can then go one to be "broken off".

But I'd like to camp out a bit in Colossians 3. Paul wrote that if we died with Him - an act that occurs when we are born again (Romans 6) - that we will appear with Him in glory. When would this ever be not true, and if it is not true, what does that say about the Scriptures?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

No, we never dismiss anything, but we are to apply them correctly.

In Malachi, God said, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. Paul quotes this in Romans 9, of course. But Malachi goes on to explain what this means. It means that the purposes of the nation will by thwarted by God. It does not mean that no descendant of Esau can ever be saved.

I don't see where Malachi "explains what it means", I see God pointing out hypocrisy though and judging (through the prophet). I see in Hebrews, however, that Esau was a godless fornicator.

Can you tell me where in Malachi that "the purposes of a nation will be thwarted by God"? I'm certain you don't mean Israel because that's replacement theology, and Rom 9:27 tell us - Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

It's the same thing with Israel in Romans 9-11. The natural branches were broken off so that the wild branches could be grafted in. But that did not mean that no Jews could be saved. Some could.

Scripture teaches this concept in Rom 11:23.

The nation was cast away (not forever, of course), so the gentiles could be included directly - grafted in (not having to become Jews first to approach God). But don't think that the gentile nations can't be broken off just the same.

Lets not forget that salvation has come to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy (Rom 11:11)

This is not teaching that having been given eternal life, having been born of God, having an inheritance promise, having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and all this done through grace, and not based on our behavior, that we can then go one to be "broken off".

So when Paul wrote his letter to the church in Rome of both Jew and Gentile, and says to the Gentiles...

1. For I speak to you Gentiles (Rom 11:13)
2. [to Gentiles] do not boast against the branches (Rom 11:18)
3. [to Gentiles] You will say then (Rom 11:19)
4. [to Gentiles] you stand by faith (Rom 11:20)
5. [to Gentiles] He may not spare you either (Rom 11:21)
6. [to Gentiles] if you continue in His goodness (Rom 11:22)
7. [to Gentiles] otherwise you will be cut off (Rom 11:22)
8. I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery (Rom 11:25)
9. lest you should be wise in your own opinion (Rom 11:25)

...you're saying that these are to Gentile nations and not people? Doesn't make sense to me.

But I'd like to camp out a bit in Colossians 3. Paul wrote that if we died with Him - an act that occurs when we are born again (Romans 6) - that we will appear with Him in glory. When would this ever be not true, and if it is not true, what does that say about the Scriptures?

"If we've died with Him" is the biggest point here, and the most personal condition for all of us. I agree wholeheartedly with the writings of Dave Hunt on this issue:

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/victory-over-sin

Rom 6:5-6
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gal 5:24
And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Gal 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Col 2:11-12
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

[mark s]

But I'd like to camp out a bit in Colossians 3. Paul wrote that if we died with Him - an act that occurs when we are born again (Romans 6) - that we will appear with Him in glory. When would this ever be not true, and if it is not true, what does that say about the Scriptures?

"If we've died with Him" is the biggest point here, and the most personal condition for all of us. I agree wholeheartedly with the writings of Dave Hunt on this issue:

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/victory-over-sin

Hi BTM,

It seems Dave Hunt is making my point for me. Our death in Christ is historical (to use his word), and is what allows us to actually have a changed life.

It comes first. It's not a condition of how well we do, it's our death and resurrection with Christ that gives us our new nature, and our status as God's Own children. And Paul's declaration that we will be revealed with Jesus in glory affirms that this is a permanent change.

And it's based on these facts that we can then live that changed life.

But the more I read from your posts, the more it seems that you are talking about those who did not die with Christ, and were not therefore raised with Christ, and though they profess faith, at the end they fall away.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

But the more I read from your posts, the more it seems that you are talking about those who did not die with Christ, and were not therefore raised with Christ, and though they profess faith, at the end they fall away.

Agreed. Only dead people can be resurrected (dead to self).

[mark s]

Then we are on the same page . . . I think.

Those who have died in Christ, and therefore have been raised in Christ, live forever in Christ. Is that right?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

Right!

But dead in Christ is very personal and is between a person and God. That's the danger of not reckoning the old man dead. Paul didn't consider himself to have attained but pressed forward (Phil 3:10-15).

Calvinists (reformed, presbyterian, OSAS, etc) quote Scripture...

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

...forgeting (or neglecting) other Scripture...

John 6:70-71
Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Acts 1:24-25
And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

Judas was among the chosen and fell by transgression. How can OSAS be true? If OSAS were true, there's no need for Ephesians 4 and 5 (and much more). I cringe at the thought!

[mark s]

When are you considered to be dead in Christ?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

When you abide in Him and He in you (Jn 15:4).