Sinners Still?

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Sinners Still?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:23 pm

A member and I have been discussing this subject and both of us have agreed that we'd like to hear others' perspectives. Scriptural references are welcome, of course, but it would be appreciated if whole chapters are not posted.

1) Even though we're saved/born again/converted, are we still sinners?

2) Yes we're saved by grace and forgiven. But we still sin (fall short/miss the mark) whether intentionally or unintentionally, don't we?

3) Do we need to continue to seek forgiveness when we sin? If so, why?

We're aware there may be differences of opinion, but have chosen to open the thread for dialogue rather than debate. That means that no one will criticize your response, but hopefully we will learn from one another.

Thanks for sharing your answers!
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:46 pm

Absolutly we still sin.

Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God and the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. For example, He said if you want to be perfect, sell everything you have and give it to the poor. That is perfection, that is what Jesus did and all of us miss that mark.

Of course we still need to seek forgiveness, Jesus said to pray like this... Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:55 pm

I ran into some people at Bible Study recently and they believe that they have no need to ask the Lord for forgiveness anymore. They were explaining me about 2 different kinds of sins, it was a bit weird. But I told them that sin is death, where in the bible does it say it's ok to sin because we already have Christ?
I felt they were trying to deceive me by softening the Word of God. I'd be interested to learn more about "sin" and what is scripturally correct. I would think this would be a good study.

Of course God sees us perfect because of the Blood of Jesus, but on the other hand God knows your heart, thoughts and intentions. I felt like they were telling me it's ok to sin because you're automatically forgiven....

Blessings, Woody
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby GodsStudent on Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Yes, I believe born again people still sin, must still repent and continue to be transformed (sanctified). I will post some verses as I think on this, but lately my life is crazy busy, so I will come and go with my own posts here. What does this verse say if not that there are those who willfully continue in sin?

Hebrews 10: 26-27

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:37 pm

Hebrews 10: 26-27

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Thanks, thats a good verse!

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.

I find interesting how Jesus warned us to stop sinning, so if we do ask him to forgive us, he will forgive otherwise something worse comes along....
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby mark s on Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:52 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:A member and I have been discussing this subject and both of us have agreed that we'd like to hear others' perspectives. Scriptural references are welcome, of course, but it would be appreciated if whole chapters are not posted.


Hi Abiding,

A few thoughts . . .

1) Even though we're saved/born again/converted, are we still sinners?


For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. (Romans 7:15-20, ESV)

2) Yes we're saved by grace and forgiven. But we still sin (fall short/miss the mark) whether intentionally or unintentionally, don't we?


Answered in the same passage as above.

3) Do we need to continue to seek forgiveness when we sin? If so, why?


There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1, ESV)

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. (Romans 8:33-34, ESV)

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby AndCanItBe on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:20 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:A member and I have been discussing this subject and both of us have agreed that we'd like to hear others' perspectives. Scriptural references are welcome, of course, but it would be appreciated if whole chapters are not posted.

1) Even though we're saved/born again/converted, are we still sinners?


Does God still classify us as sinners? Perhaps not, since He sees us through Jesus eyes now, refers to us as adopted sons/daughters, and a royal priesthood.

2) Yes we're saved by grace and forgiven. But we still sin (fall short/miss the mark) whether intentionally or unintentionally, don't we?


Absolutely. In my experience people who think we don't are cherry-picking 1 John 5:18

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.


Yet, John himself just three chapters earlier says

1 John 1:6-2:1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.


John is clearly addressing believers in his book.

1 John 2 again

12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.




3) Do we need to continue to seek forgiveness when we sin? If so, why?


Yes, we do. As Christians, we may not lose our adoption papers for unconfessed sin, but it definitely affects our fellowship with God and with other Christians as John pointed out in some of the above verses. We become like Adam and Eve hiding in the garden every time God walks by to talk to us.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:21 am

Perfect, Mark! Thank you!
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:37 pm

Luke 11:2-4
2 And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
3 ‘Give us each day our daily bread.
4 ‘And forgive us our sins,
For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.’ ”


James 3:1-2
1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.



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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby readyornot on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:55 pm

What an interesting but foundational post.
I've been saved most of my life and have struggled with sin the whole time. I remember in Bible college many years ago laughing at those who teach total sanctification is possible in this life. While I still don't believe that, I have come to believe that we have been given the power to overcome each and every individual temptation to sin. No one ever does this 100% of the time, but I do think God always makes it supernaturally possible for us to over come the flesh. But, I'll tell you, I really long for the day when I will no longer have to deal with this filthy, carnal flesh that keeps popping up sinful thoughts and urges. My struggles with my own besetting sins have really made the verse in Matthew 5:6 truly meaningful to me: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." Never mind righteousness around me in the world; I so long for it within my own soul. I have cried to God to be righteous and not sinful. As a therapist, I have come to agree with Jeremiah 17:9: “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" When you think there's no sin, beware. It's always lurking around somewhere.

I really have come to believe that overcoming sin, especially the really hard ones like lust, anger, fear etc., require an activation of faith for the Spirit to give you the power to overcome them. Not just some vague faith, but specific beliefs about the lack of faith that is driving that particular sin in the first place. What am I not trusting in God for that causes me to do this or that? I believe God has given us an opportunity to "go and sin no more" in this short life by truly stepping out in faith before we enter into eternity where everything is visible and faith takes a back seat. I think we'll all be more or less walking on water in Gloryland. But, to do it now in our weakened, sinful states, means much more, both to God and to us. It's harder to do now. It's a chance to actually do something hard to show our love for God before it all gets so easy in Heaven with our redeemed, sinless minds. As I told my daughter in college recently, now is the time to create war stories we may be retelling thousands of years from now. We earn the medals, rewards, during the war, not after. So, don't sit around whining and waiting for perfection in the next life. Every victory now gives great honor and glory to God in a way that I don't think will be possible in the next life. Sure, we'll still be expected to be holy, but how hard will that be compared to now? When you think your life is meaningless or insignificant, and that you're not really playing an important part in this spiritual war going on, think of this: YOU are the battle front every time you are tempted to sin and given the choice to exercise faith and use the Holy Spirit to pummel the enemy in front of unseen witnesses. YOU, even if no other human notices, draw great praise on the field of battle to God on High every time you overcome some sin that previously you did not. And when you walk away from that victory, bow and say "I give this to you, my great God and King Jesus! Thanks for that! All power and glory to you, Master!" Just beware of the getbacks the enemy will set for you, which are merely more opportunities to give greater glory to the King. I love how God has fixed it where every time the Loser tries to score points via the saints sinning, we can turn it around on him and score for God instead. How cool is that! Just be careful. Always know it is God spanking the devil and not you. He's just using you to do it, which is very cool too.

Here's some other thoughts I've had recently from Joshua 10:

22 Then Joshua said, “Open the mouth of the cave and bring these five kings out to me from the cave.” 23 They did so, and brought these five kings out to him from the cave: the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. 24 When they brought these kings out to Joshua, Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the chiefs of the men of war who had gone with him, “Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings.” So they came near and put their feet on their necks. 25 Joshua then said to them, “Do not fear or be dismayed! Be strong and courageous, for thus the Lord will do to all your enemies with whom you fight.” 26 So afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees; and they hung on the trees until evening. 27 It came about at [n]sunset that Joshua gave a command, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves, and put large stones over the mouth of the cave, to this very day.

I think Joshua is a type of Christ here, and Jesus is doing the exact same thing in spiritual warfare with us. Come and put your feet on the necks of these scary demons and see what I'm going to do to them. Do not fear. God is gonna whack all your enemies. Be strong and courageous. There's a lot more I could say here, but regarding the point of this post, I think this kind of fight starts in our own hearts and minds with our struggles with sin. The more we overcome in those personal battles, the greater we will be able to be used by God in His overall fight in this world. Remember the old hymn, Faith is the victory that overcomes the world! I'm kinda on fire right now. Man, I wish I could keep this feeling all the time!
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby daffodyllady on Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:59 am

We can get bogged down in theological theorization. Let's just keep it simple.

God wants us to love Him with all our hearts. He doesn't want us to love sin.
If we truly love Him, and we catch ourselves doing something that is displeasing to Him, we will have a gut-level reaction of deep repentance.

In other words, if our heart is right toward God, we will need no one to tell us whether or not we OUGHT to repent! We will automatically turn toward the light, as a moth turns from darkness toward the flame, though that flame may destroy it.

If our heart is not right toward God, we will try to protect ourselves from the light--trying to preserve the ego from the personal cross designed to destroy the self-life.

Now, many will theorize and attempt to quantify in theological terms, whether or not such a one was actually ever saved. But does that really matter, when it all gets sifted out in His Presence?

The danger I see is that of about 18 inches.
It is entirely possible, by virtue of theological training, to define oneself mentally as a Christian, and therefore entirely safe...
and yet remain in complete blindness to the actual state of the heart.

Let us therefore examine ourselves.
Not our theology, but our actual lives.
To see if we are actually in the faith.

Because if we love God, we will hate sin.
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Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you... Abstain from all appearance of evil...Without holiness shall no man see the Lord.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:29 pm

Good post!
Just got back from my trip....
Some Christian may think that they are not sinners, but I would think it would be arrogant to say you're not a sinner. If you're not a sinner, then you have nothing to repent from, I would consider that a danger zone....
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sunny on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:34 pm

Yet, John himself just three chapters earlier says

1 John 1:6-2:1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.



John is clearly addressing believers in his book.

1 John 2 again

12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.





3) Do we need to continue to seek forgiveness when we sin? If so, why?



Yes, we do. As Christians, we may not lose our adoption papers for unconfessed sin, but it definitely affects our fellowship with God and with other Christians as John pointed out in some of the above verses. We become like Adam and Eve hiding in the garden every time God walks by to talk to us.


That passage in 1st John has always been the clearest explanation to me, along with Paul's "for the things I would do, I don't do, and the things I don't want to do, those things I do. O wretched man that I am....There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus....." (Loosely quoted from memory.)

All believers are under the blood of Jesus and they have a covering for their sin.

Romans 4:6-8 says:
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."


Confession keeps the fellowship and communion with God open. And out of fellowship with God is a miserable place for a believer to be.

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31-39
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:34 pm

Confession keeps the fellowship and communion with God open. And out of fellowship with God is a miserable place for a believer to be.


hmm... having to think about this a bit. If fellowship with God is contingent on our confession, are we saying that the lack is on the part of God? In other words, is God disappointed with us and refuses to fellowship with us until we apologize? Or is the barrier to fellowship our perception? In other words, isn't it that it's our feeling of disappointment in ourselves that may cause us to break the fellowship and/or communion rather than God doing so?

What do you think?
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sunny on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:59 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Confession keeps the fellowship and communion with God open. And out of fellowship with God is a miserable place for a believer to be.


hmm... having to think about this a bit. If fellowship with God is contingent on our confession, are we saying that the lack is on the part of God? In other words, is God disappointed with us and refuses to fellowship with us until we apologize? Or is the barrier to fellowship our perception? In other words, isn't it that it's our feeling of disappointment in ourselves that may cause us to break the fellowship and/or communion rather than God doing so?

What do you think?


I can't think of any scripture right now, but my feeling is that we KNOW when we are drifting from God. We KNOW when the fellowship is out of kilter. We are the ones placing (or allowing) the distance between us and God.

God will not force us to come to Him in repentance. He is a gentleman and waits for us. So it's our responsibility to examine ourselves and search out what in us is causing the problem. It's usually an unwillingness to humble ourselves and admit that we want something that God doesn't and we don't want to let go of it right now.

At least that has been my experience.

But the minute I kneel and talk to God about it, the sweetness of his presence returns.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:35 am

Hebrews 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

I have met few others who have experienced this trial. It is this trial that produces a renewing of the mind. It forges new synapses in the brain much as physical excersize breaks down the muscles and rebuilds them. The implication? We are sinners even after converted. Overcoming sin is a painful maturing process. But, that is part of our salvation, that we can overcome sin. Have I overcome all sin? No. Have I overcome some sins that were ingrained in my flesh? Yes.


John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Confession of sins sheds light on sin. Denying sin hides sin from the light.
Living by truth requires we confess our sins to ourselves.
If we confess our sins to ourselves, then we must seek forgiveness in the only place it can be found: God themself.
The verdict has already been handed down. All we need do is ask ourselves if we are willing to come into the light.

Knowing that our salvation is based on Christ's righteousness, not on our own, allows us to enter the light though sinful. Our rightousness will always be as filthy rags. Nevertheless, part of our salvation is that we may be freed from the sin that reigned in us and be reigned by God's spirit instead of sin. Again, it is a maturing process.

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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:26 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Confession keeps the fellowship and communion with God open. And out of fellowship with God is a miserable place for a believer to be.


hmm... having to think about this a bit. If fellowship with God is contingent on our confession, are we saying that the lack is on the part of God? In other words, is God disappointed with us and refuses to fellowship with us until we apologize? Or is the barrier to fellowship our perception? In other words, isn't it that it's our feeling of disappointment in ourselves that may cause us to break the fellowship and/or communion rather than God doing so?

What do you think?


Hi Abiding,

I think that we are either reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ or not. If we are reconciled to God through faith, than that is what we are.

I think many people believe that their fellowship is broken by sin, but this is a mistake. They are forgetting that we are reconciled to God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by maintaining good behavior.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:45 am

mark s wrote:I think many people believe that their fellowship is broken by sin, but this is a mistake. They are forgetting that we are reconciled to God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by maintaining good behavior.


I agree, Mark. So it's us that breaks fellowship by believing erroneously that God is turning away from us because we sinned. Further we (some) believe that once we ask forgiveness, God is willing to fellowship with us again. This back & forth....back& forth on the part of God is not supported by scripture as the those you posted above prove.

So in reality, while we may feel the need to continually ask forgiveness, it is not because God is requiring it nor is our fellowship with Him broken. That's my understanding.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:14 am

That is my understanding also.

Love in Christ!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:30 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
So in reality, while we may feel the need to continually ask forgiveness, it is not because God is requiring it nor is our fellowship with Him broken. That's my understanding.


We repent continuously because we love Him and want to be like Him.

God Bless

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:00 am

I have seen so many Christians who are careless about sin. I always say to them,"The more you sin without repenting/forgiveness, the darker it gets".
In Christ Always,
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sunny on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:32 pm

Exit40 wrote:
We repent continuously because we love Him and want to be like Him.

God Bless

David


That's how I see it. Our goal is to be conformed to the image of Christ, and when we see things in ourselves that are not in line with that goal, we are sorry.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:19 pm

I think this discussion is of utmost importance...

I think we all understand the finished work of Christ on the cross but I spy we don't quite know how it applies in our life.

To cut the story short... when we sin, and we certainly will, whether intentionally or otherwise, the right response is to refocus our mind on Christ and THANK him for forgiving that very sin on that cross too.

The more we remind ourselves of the wonderful substitutional atonement of Christ on our behalf on the cross, the more we fall in love with Jesus... the more you fall in love with Jesus, the more victorious we are because it is ni longer by our own strength that we are doing but by a higher power that Jesus ask us to live by... the Power of Love

I am afraid for many people who still insist on "beating" themselves and "putting ash" on their heads and insistin on others to do the same, that instead of being "closer to God", they are the ones who do not understand the Grace that comes through Faith and are in fact, despising the cross.

In-Christ,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby daffodyllady on Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:51 pm

Upon that cross of Jesus mine eye at times can see
The very dying form of One Who suffered there for me;
And from my stricken heart with tears two wonders I confess;
The wonders of redeeming love and my unworthiness.

I take, O cross, thy shadow for my abiding place;
I ask no other sunshine than the sunshine of His face;
Content to let the world go by to know no gain or loss,
My sinful self my only shame, my glory all the cross.


As long as we keep our eyes focused on the wonder of redemption,
Knowing the terrifying holiness of God,
and our original despicable wickedness...
And yet, His love was/is so incredibly unmeasurable, that he would suffer so for us...

When I see the way my Savior leads me,
Caring for me day by day,
Then I sadly bow my head and wonder
How I could have gone astray.

Refrain:
Oh, what tender, tender mercy!
Oh, what kind and loving care,
Shown us by the dear and loving Shepherd,
From his dwelling place so fair.

When I see the way my Savior leads me,
Bearing patiently with me,
Then I know how weak and undeserving
Without him I’d counted be. [Refrain]

When I see the way my Savior leads me,
How he crowned and blessed my days,
In my grateful heart is deep Thanksgiving,
To my lips spring songs of praise. [Refrain]
Daffodyllady
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:21 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:I think this discussion is of utmost importance...

I think we all understand the finished work of Christ on the cross but I spy we don't quite know how it applies in our life.

To cut the story short... when we sin, and we certainly will, whether intentionally or otherwise, the right response is to refocus our mind on Christ and THANK him for forgiving that very sin on that cross too.

The more we remind ourselves of the wonderful substitutional atonement of Christ on our behalf on the cross, the more we fall in love with Jesus... the more you fall in love with Jesus, the more victorious we are because it is ni longer by our own strength that we are doing but by a higher power that Jesus ask us to live by... the Power of Love

I am afraid for many people who still insist on "beating" themselves and "putting ash" on their heads and insistin on others to do the same, that instead of being "closer to God", they are the ones who do not understand the Grace that comes through Faith and are in fact, despising the cross.

In-Christ,
KA


I really appreciated this post. It's been a theme working in my life for the better part of a year now. I have had to unlearn a whole lot of "beating" and "putting ash" in order to learn about Grace and how faith really works....it IS a trust issue...indeed....and so liberating ....because on my best days, I still fall short somehow/someway.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:36 am

GodsStudent wrote:I really appreciated this post. It's been a theme working in my life for the better part of a year now. I have had to unlearn a whole lot of "beating" and "putting ash" in order to learn about Grace and how faith really works....it IS a trust issue...indeed....and so liberating ....because on my best days, I still fall short somehow/someway.


:a3:

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:38 am

God Student,

When I first became a Christian, there was a part of me that continued to sin because I did not believe that God really loved me. It was psychological. I could not stop it. It took me hating myself for what I did and God forgiving me repeatedly before I learned to trust God. I believed in my head. I knew it intellectually. But it took a long time before I believed it in my heart and knew God really did love me and was not just giving me a second chance only to throw me away when I did not measure up.

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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:22 pm

keithareilly wrote:God Student,

When I first became a Christian, there was a part of me that continued to sin because I did not believe that God really loved me. It was psychological. I could not stop it. It took me hating myself for what I did and God forgiving me repeatedly before I learned to trust God. I believed in my head. I knew it intellectually. But it took a long time before I believed it in my heart and knew God really did love me and was not just giving me a second chance only to throw me away when I did not measure up.

Keith


That's a beautiful statement, Keith. Many of us (include me here) grow up with "love" issues and as adults, we have them, too, so understanding God's love has been a process for me, and as such, it's teaching me love....something I have had trouble with my whole life. I can tell there is growth and it feels so good. I am learning to like and even love perfect strangers, something that NEVER has happened in all my now 47 years of life. It's only in the past few years that the Lord's love has touched me so much so that I have become willing to love others. Sad...true....and I am so grateful.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby keithareilly on Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:47 am

Christ commanded us to love.

We love because Christ first loved us.
That means loving another does not depend on the other.
We don't love someone because of who they are, we love them because of who we have become.

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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby lamb7 on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:06 am

Very detailed study of sin; to anyone interested.

http://ichthys.com/3B-Hamartio.htm
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:41 am

lamb7 wrote:Very detailed study of sin; to anyone interested.

http://ichthys.com/3B-Hamartio.htm


Thanks lamb7. That was certainly enlightening and very complete. I recommend everyone here to read it. very long but worth every bit the read.

In short, re the OP...

Sinners still? Nay, not anymore than calling Christ a sinner because he bore all our sins! Christians are Saints who happen to be able to still sin... for more details, please refer to the above reference given by lamb7 ;-)
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:54 am

Yes we're still Sinners.

To be a sinner is one who sins - the term, or bad title if you will belongs to us ALL. Both saved and unsaved are sinners. The saved only have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ - lest we forget what He did for us on the Cross.

Most believers don't want categorize themselves as being sinners - yet this is exactly what we are. None of us have "Arrived" yet, and we won't until we have been Resurrected. Some even believe that they can live a perfect life, therefore placing yokes upon themselves - which has led to living a very legalistic lifestyle to the point of being delusional - and nutty.

They call themselves "sanctified" or separated from the "world". They think in their own minds that they have arrived, because they "speak in tongues"; "dress a certainly way"; "tithe"; "go to church 5 our of 7 days of the week"; "dance or are slain in the Spirit" - so forth and so on with all of this nonsense. I know people such as this - WHEW!

When I hear believers classifying others as Sinners - I think to myself, well who isn't? They sound like the Pharisees. They call others Sinners - yet they do and think things in their minds that are unseen and sinful, living a very hypocritical life.

When I think of the term "Sinner" I am reminded of what 1 John 1:8 says - and that is: "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." It doesn't get any clearer than that.

So in closing.... I would say that yes, I am a Sinner still, because I sin (It's not a title, but a condition) - however, I am Saved by Grace, as it relates to my Eternal destiny because I have put my faith in Christ, and not myself.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Shelby on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:31 am

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

If we say we are sinners then the Truth is in us. :banana:
The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Rev. 22:17
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:46 pm

John 8:31:38
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”


What Christ is saying here is it is indeed possible to stop sinning if we know the truth.
Personally, I think this is a hard truth to believe. It is true, but it is not a truth I have been able to accept to the point of ceasation of sin. On occasion, I have been successful, but only on occasion. Even if we are successful in accomplish this and we cease to sin, sin still lives in our flesh; and to say we are without sin even if we stop sinning would be a lie. Consequently, while we are in the flesh, we will always be sinners as it is apart of our flesh and will be with us for as long as we are in the flesh.

Perhaps when I have been "Abiding in his Word" long enough, I will understand the truth sufficiently to be free.


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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:05 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Yes we're still Sinners.

To be a sinner is one who sins - the term, or bad title if you will belongs to us ALL. Both saved and unsaved are sinners. The saved only have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ - lest we forget what He did for us on the Cross.


Once again I disagree. A driver drives. A teacher teach. Now, I am sure a CEO drives her car too but you would never call that CEO a driver even though she drives. Similarly, a manager teaches his staff how to use the machinery but you don't call him a teacher even though he teaches once in a while.

Nope, we are no longer sinners but saints! Yes, we may sin but that does not make us sinners. If we are redeemed, saved, made the very child of God, we cannot be sinners even though we continue to sin which we will continue to do till the redemption of our bodies.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:25 am

keithareilly wrote:John 8:31:38
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”


What Christ is saying here is it is indeed possible to stop sinning if we know the truth.
Personally, I think this is a hard truth to believe. It is true, but it is not a truth I have been able to accept to the point of ceasation of sin. On occasion, I have been successful, but only on occasion. Even if we are successful in accomplish this and we cease to sin, sin still lives in our flesh; and to say we are without sin even if we stop sinning would be a lie. Consequently, while we are in the flesh, we will always be sinners as it is apart of our flesh and will be with us for as long as we are in the flesh.

Perhaps when I have been "Abiding in his Word" long enough, I will understand the truth sufficiently to be free.


Keith


Keith, read the verses you quoted again... The truth will set you free (verse 32)... the son sets you free (verse 36).... The truth is that the Son will set you free! I think Jesus is not impotent to set us free. We cannot set ourselves free... That's what Jesus was trying to tell the Jews. We need Jesus to set us free and if Jesus says we are free, we are free indeed! Let us not state otherwise :a3:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:13 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Yes, we may sin but that does not make us sinners


Huh..... :humm:

Definition of a Sinner:

"a person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts."

I believe we are talking semantics in the use of the word "sinner" here. None of us...and I repeat none of us are not guilty of sin - that makes us SINNERS. We are just saved by Grace.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:52 pm

Mr. Baldy...

With all due respect...
I think you are extremely disrespectful of your fellow believers in Christ, when you mock what you think is their doctrine on sanctification.

I am a member of the Church of God, and I do believe in sanctification. I believe we are sanctified by the blood of Christ at the moment of salvation, in the spirit. Yet, there is a sanctifying work God does in our minds, wills and emotions (souls) as we turn more and more to Him.

And besides this, there is a definite work of divine sanctification that can and should happen to every believer, subsequent to salvation. I did not realize what to call it, when it happened to me, as a 17-yr old. I was born again at an early age, but I struggled for many years, trying to get out of a Romans 7 Christian experience, into the 8th chapter of Romans. I was always doing what I knew I should not do, and found it impossible to do that which I knew I should do. I felt completely overwhelmed with guilt, knowing my profession and my walk did not line up. I simply could not seem to put my talk into shoe leather.

One day, when I was simply praying quietly, God did a sudden work in my soul, and I came into a new level of spiritual operation. I suddenly knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, that "though my sins were as scarlet, they were white as snow..." And the guilt was washed away by the overwhelming LOVE of God. I have never been the same.

Don't get me wrong. This sanctification was not a sudden automatic perfection of never being able to sin again. But it was the ability to NOT sin, by the grace of God.

Romans 1:17 tells us the Gospel of Christ reveals the righteousness of God to us from faith to faith.
This is how sanctification works. We progress from one level of faith to another, as God reveals truth to us. Because when a truth comes to life in us, it makes us free from old lies Satan kept us bound under.

I am so sorry for you, that your version of salvation does not set you free from the bondage of having to sin. All it tells you is that God will overlook how you act, just because you profess to believe something that doesn't change your actions.

But that is profoundly unbiblical.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby redeemed1953 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:57 pm

:armor:

Even if you get all your ducks in a row, you are still getting older...grey hair, wrinkles, some ailments...these are all products of sin in your body..I don't even think you can repent of getting older since you are on the receiving end of the action and not the cause of the action. Dying is a product of sin.


But being resurrected...is caused by the power of God.

:a3: :a3: :a3:
I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Saviour...John Newton
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:28 am

Keeping Alert wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:Yes we're still Sinners.

To be a sinner is one who sins - the term, or bad title if you will belongs to us ALL. Both saved and unsaved are sinners. The saved only have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ - lest we forget what He did for us on the Cross.


Once again I disagree. A driver drives. A teacher teach. Now, I am sure a CEO drives her car too but you would never call that CEO a driver even though she drives. Similarly, a manager teaches his staff how to use the machinery but you don't call him a teacher even though he teaches once in a while.

Nope, we are no longer sinners but saints! Yes, we may sin but that does not make us sinners. If we are redeemed, saved, made the very child of God, we cannot be sinners even though we continue to sin which we will continue to do till the redemption of our bodies.


Agree KA. It's a matter of knowing what covenant we saints are under and what our identity is from God's perspective (the only one that counts). :grin:

As a matter of fact, again from God's perspective, we are not even supposed to call nonbelievers "sinners" right now because they have not undergone the second judgment yet. Christ cleansed every human being on the Cross and inaugurated or rather ratified "the Year of the Lord's favor" when He first started preaching as recorded in Luke 4:18.

And in Acts Chap 10 instructed Peter not to call any man unclean that He had made clean.

Acts 10:13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Acts 10:27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”


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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby daffodyllady on Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:37 pm

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


1Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


It is obvious the idea that no one is a sinner in the sight of God right now, is false.

If you sin, you are a sinner.
Otherwise, no one these days would have to cleanse their hands and purify their hearts. That verse would have only applied to people who lived before it was written.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:31 pm

daffodyllady wrote:


It is obvious the idea that no one is a sinner in the sight of God right now, is false.

If you sin, you are a sinner.


Hi daffodyllady!

Again it is a matter of identity, not behavior. While nonbelievers, and saints too, do transgress God's moral law as defined in the OT, the saints (and believe it or not nonbelievers too) are under the stipulations of the New Covenant where there is no written law to condemn us.

Rom 4: 13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


However, for unbelievers there will be condemnation at the end of the age if they remain in a state of unbelief. Right now unbelievers are under the Year of the Lord's favor (which is temporal grace), but they can enter into a state of eternal grace if they accept Jesus as their savior. But God has yet to execute judgment on unbelievers to officially declare them "sinners."


2 Cor 5:16

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby daffodyllady on Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:42 pm

I Cor 5:17...

Therefore, IF...


Yes, God sent Christ to reconcile the world to Himself.
But those who continue in a state of unbelief are currently abiding under the wrath of God. They are NOT reconciled to Him, until they repent!

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (NOW) abideth on him.


Any truth of the scriptures can be taken too far, into error, if you aren't careful to keep all scriptures in balance.
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:18 pm

daffodyllady wrote:I Cor 5:17...

Therefore, IF...


Yes, God sent Christ to reconcile the world to Himself.
But those who continue in a state of unbelief are currently abiding under the wrath of God. They are NOT reconciled to Him, until they repent!



Daffodyllady

This is very true -- that unbelievers are not reconciled to God until they turn to Christ -- only if you are speaking of the second reconciliation--the one reconciliation that happens when a person accepts/believes the gospel which is the one requirement under the second covenant(the NT).

The reconciliation that Christ secured on the cross for every human being was for sins committed under the first covenant. When Adam broke the covenant God imposed on him in the garden all humanity came under condemnation and judgment of death.

Rom 5:16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


Christ came to fulfill the penalty for those sins that God ”in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Rom 3:25

Am I saying all men are saved as a result of Christ's cross? No it takes two justifications. John 3:5 All men received the gift of the first one. They must now believe the gospel for God to give them the second justification.

:blessyou:

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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby daffodyllady on Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:28 pm

:humm: :what15: :umno:
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:46 pm

God reconciled the world to Himself in Christ. But we must receive that reconciliation.

Roman 5 mentions the justification of life to all men. Everyone's sins have been forgiven. But again, we must receive that forgiveness for it to become effective personally.

Jesus said that all sins would be forgiven men, excepting the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Being forgiven of sins is not enough for us to have life. We have to also believe in Jesus to be born again, and then we have life.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:23 pm

God reconciled the world to Himself in Christ. But we must receive that reconciliation.
Roman 5 mentions the justification of life to all men. Everyone's sins have been forgiven. But again, we must receive that forgiveness for it to become effective personally.


Hi Mark,

Yes I understand that this is and has been the prevailing doctrine that is preached. But I do not agree with this. The scriptures are there, like Rom 5:16 that I cited, that say that justification from sin has been given as a gift by God through Christ’s sacrifice.

We also have Acts 10 where God through a vision tells Peter not to call anything unclean that He has made clean. While some believe that this is speaking of clean and unclean animals, Peter himself gives us the correct interpretation in Acts 10:27:

And as he talked with him, he went in and found that many had assembled; 28 and he said to them, “You yourselves know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean.


For further illumination on this, we have the description of the OT atonement in Lev 16 that foreshadowed the Cross of our Lord.

Lev 16:29-30 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves[c] and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins.


If we take a look at verses 29 and 30, we see that once the priest followed God’s decrees to effect atonement for sin, God declared that the people would be clean from all their sins before Him. There was no command from God that for this to become effective each person had to accept or receive God’s declaration.

Jesus said that all sins would be forgiven men, excepting the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Being forgiven of sins is not enough for us to have life. We have to also believe in Jesus to be born again, and then we have life.


I agree with this Mark and I said as much in my previous post. Having forgiveness of sins is only the first component of salvation, i.e., the birth of water. A person must believe in Jesus to be born again and receive eternal life.

As I see it from the scriptures, the good news that we have for the world is truly good news for all: a proclamation of the forgiveness that all men already have because of Christ's Cross and His offer of the gift of His Spirit and eternal life if they believe in Him.

:blessyou:

sonbeam
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:36 pm

Sonbeam wrote:As I see it from the scriptures, the good news that we have for the world is truly good news for all: a proclamation of the forgiveness that all men already have because of Christ's Cross and His offer of the gift of His Spirit and eternal life if they believe in Him.

:blessyou:

sonbeam


Hi sonbeam,

I think any difference between us must be vocabulary. In what you've written here, we are completely on the same page, and this is truly good new to all mankind.

:hugs:

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:14 pm

Hi Mark!

Your answer made me think of this passage:

Psalm 133

1
How good and pleasant it is
when God’s people live together in unity!
2
It is like precious oil poured on the head,


:blessyou: :itsgood:
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Re: Sinners Still?

Postby mark s on Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:53 pm

:a3:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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