Baptism

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Baptism

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:04 pm

Hello. I have a question that's really bothering me. I don't reguarly attend a church, but I do read the Bible and have felt for quite some time that I was saved and forgiven until a friend (her and her husband pastor a church) told me all the sins I've already confessed are not forgiven until I get baptised. I know the whole baby baptism thing is more of a tradition since babies are not aware enough to make the decision on their own, but is this absolutely necessary? I have been wanting to get baptised for a long time now, but didn't realize it was mandatory for forgiveness. I thought the baptism was "of the holy spirit" and not necessarily of water.. any answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Joshua 1:9
Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee wheresoever thou goest.
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Re: Baptism

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:13 pm

She also said I must be baptised in the name of Jesus, not the trinity.. I am very confused on what it right, I know the Bible says in the name of the Father, the son, the holy ghost, but there is another part that says in Jesus name.. very, very confused..
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Re: Baptism

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:22 pm

No, you don't have to be baptized with water to be forgiven. The thief on the Cross being a prime example.

Luke 23

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


The baptism that is required is of the Spirit.



Luke 3

16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


John 1

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”


It's the Spirit that is our seal

Ephesians 1


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


I believe Baptism by water is important as an act of public confession of your faith before men and if you're feeling convicted you should do it. Scripture give examples of Christians being baptized by water before, nearly simultaneously, and after receiving the Holy Spirit, though.

Before

Acts 8

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.



Nearly simultaneously

Acts 2

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


After

Acts 10

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
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Re: Baptism

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:20 am

Thank you! That helps so much! :blessyou:
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Re: Baptism

Postby jgilberAZ on Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:01 am

Sounds like "Oneness Pentecostalism."

http://carm.org/religious-movements/one ... jesus-name
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Baptism

Postby notworthcomparing on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:01 pm

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Acts 2:37-38

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

James 4:17

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Saying I do I have to be baptised is like saying, do I have to love people? Do I have to allow Christ to reign in my life?

Given what He has done - the question is not what is the minimum I can get by with, but how can I not follow Him, given the depth of my sin and the immeasurable riches of His grace. We should run to baptism, orphans, widows, the lost, etc..

We can debate all day the essential nature of baptism, but it's the wrong question. I certainly pray that this thread does not deteriorate into such a small debate.

Certainly I do not mean to imply that I have completely ordered and surrendered my life to His Lordship. I certainly am far from that and could easily be confronted with many areas where I have not yielded.

Blessings to you all.

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Re: Baptism

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:06 pm

Personally, I do not consider whether salvation is entirely by grace, or is a combination of grace and works, to be a "small debate".

Just sayin' . . .

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Baptism

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:15 pm

Additional scriptures to consider:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. . ." - Mark 16:16

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Re: Baptism

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:47 am

What is baptism, anyway?

Something we need to answer, to answer the question, is it necessary?

Fact is, I believe that baptism, as taught in the Bible, is absolutely necessary for our salvation.

So what is baptism?

Ephesians 4:4-6
(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is only one baptism, so, whatever it is, there is only one thing that is baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

We are baptized into "one body".

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

We are baptized into Christ, therefore, it must be His body we are baptized into.

Romans 6:3-6
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Consider . . . baptize means to immerse, submerge.

We are placed into Christ as He dies. We die with Him, we are buried with Him, and we are raised with Him.

His crucifixion becomes our crucifixion. His death becomes our death. His burial, our burial, His resurrection, our resurrection, His life becomes our life.

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Being baptized into Christ places us "in Christ", called the body of Christ.

Remember, there is "one baptism".

2 Corinthians 5:17-18a "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God. . ."

Becoming "in Christ", this is equated with being a "new creature".

We are baptized into Christ, and so are joined with Him in death, burial, and resurrection. This is the death of our flesh, the old man, and the birth of our new creature, the new man.

This is our salvation.

To be clear, it is not a result of water, it is the result of:

    God's judicial decree that our penalty is paid by Christ
    God's further judicial decree that Christ's righteousness is applied to us
    God's creative act in begetting us His children

1 Peter 3:21 "There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Baptism

Postby jgilberAZ on Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:09 am

.
Well put, Mark.

Baptism is what happens to us when we believe ... we are baptized into Christ (his death, burial, resurrection).

When we stand in front of people and get wet, it's just a public testimony that salvation (being baptized into Christ) has already occurred. It's a profession to the body of Christ that we are also members of the body of Christ. It has no saving value in and of itself.

If there's any act we need to perform in order to be saved, then it's no longer faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone, but has been corrupted into faith+works, which is heresy.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:08 am

Also nicely put, jgilberAZ. :grin:
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Re: Baptism

Postby Mrs. B on Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:15 am

Baptism


Baptism is an act of obedience.........

We are buried into the wattery grave of baptism.....It is a burial....we die to our will and we are born again of the water and of the spirit......baptism by water is an outward sign of a New Birth.....Born again of the Spirit and the Word...
It is an act of obedience of Faith......

We hear the Gospel...We Believe
then we act in obedience summiting to water Baptism......it is acting in Faith to what the word says..

Acts 2:37.....Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and Brethren...WHAT SHALL WE DO?

38....Then Peter said unto them,
REPENT, and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and Ye SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST...

30....FOR THE PROMISE...is unto you and to your children, and to All that are Afar Off....Even as many as the Lord
Our God Shall Call......

Baptism is an act of a good concience toward God.......Obedience



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Re: Baptism

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:41 pm

I think I'll ask to be baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy ghost.. in Jesus name... cover all my bases. :grin: Many self-professing Christians I know don't have an answer on this and many churches don't even offer baptizms aside from infant baptizm. I don't regularly attend church because I don't understand why we have so many different denominations that believe so many different things. It confuses me and I don't want to be led astray. I wasn't brought up with this as a child.. just seeking on my own. I read the Bible myself and listen to many radio sermons, read this site, etc.. and pray about it. Usually the answer becomes clear. I just don't want to fall into the trap of following man.. It seems so easy these days as my step-sister started attending church and was told it doesn't matter if her son chooses to be muslim, buddist, homosexual, etc.. she must accept it because there are many "roads" to heaven. She continued that she doesn't even own a Bible and has never read it; she just listens to the pastor. I fear that this is what many of our churches are made up of and it scares me away. I went for a short time and the gossiping and wrong teachings made me decide to stop going. I just want truth. Praying to find a solid bible believing and practicing church. Thank you for all your responses. It really does help!
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Re: Baptism

Postby daffodyllady on Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:25 pm

If you want to be baptized, find a baptist preacher. He is usually very glad to do it for you.

As far as the "Jesus' name only" teaching... I don't get it. They claim (falsely) that Jesus IS the Father, AND the Holy Spirit, besides being the Son. My question to them every time is this: "If the Father and the Holy Spirit are just other names of Jesus, as you say, then what does it matter if I get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?" And it leaves them speechless. Logic, man, logic. Stay as far away from Oneness Pentecostalism as you can, man. There is very little good common sense, and much circular reasoning in that group.

As far as water baptism not being necessary... I would put it this way: Obedience is necessary. The Lord commanded us to be baptized in water. That is quite plain to anyone who reads the Word honestly. Not that the water itself does us any good, but the response of obedience indicates a good conscience toward God. Anyone who refuses to be baptized, is rebellious against the commandment of the Lord.

The example of the thief on the cross really does not apply to this conversation, because the Great Commission was given after the cross.
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Re: Baptism

Postby notworthcomparing on Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:17 pm

Dear InNeedOfaSavior

I appreciate your heart to follow His will.

I think you can see from the many responses that responding to God in your Baptism, is a command. God's commandments must not be ignored.

I understand both sides of the debate and don't want you to be lost as the debate roles on.

It is a command and should be followed.

Amazing to me how much tine the church spends arguing over the first shallow principles and never moves on to the deep water of loving your neighbor, denying yourself and surrendering totally to His Lordship.

I am praying that you find peace, joy and grace in your walk with Him.

:bowing: :bowing: :bowing:





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Re: Baptism

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:37 pm

Hey InNeedofaSavior - I am a minister in Ohio if you are in need of being baptized.

Also, daffodyllady, I am a son, husband, etc. but not a single one of those happens to be my name.
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS"

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Re: Baptism

Postby daffodyllady on Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:17 pm

please note: I DO NOT agree with their doctrine.

However, I use their own reasoning to prove to them that their teaching is totally illogical.
If they truly believe that Jesus is also called the Father, and the Holy Spirit, then what could be so offensive to them about being baptized in all three of His (supposed) names.

Once their belief in the infallibility of their doctrine is shaken, then the truth can be presented to a slightly more open mind: That the truth of the trinity of God does not have to be explainable to mortal brains. That Jesus was not schizophrenic when he prayed, "Not my will but thine be done."
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Re: Baptism

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:09 am

daffodyllady, it is perfectly fine that you do not agree with their doctrine but be careful about giving a "traditional" argument that is not supported by scripture nor grammatical/logical sense.

As an example, when you state "being baptized in all three of His (supposed) names," the assumption would be that Father, Son, Holy Ghost are names. Question. What is the name of your earthly father? I am sure it is not father. I know when my father was alive I called him dad - that's what he was - but his name was Ray. There is a difference. :humm:

Also, when you state that “That the truth of the trinity of God does not have to be explainable to mortal brains,” I would ask where in the scripture does it state that? Although I am aware the Godhead can be mysterious, Paul tells us in Romans 1:20 that “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”
:dropjaw:

As I said above, it’s perfectly fine to disagree but do make sure your defense is scripturally sound.

“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear”
1 Peter 3:15
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*sorry, I am headed out of state this morning for several days. I will not be able to catch up with the board until I return. I am not ignoring anyone. Thanks.
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:30 pm

I am a minister in Ohio if you are in need of being baptized.


Can only ministers baptize?
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Re: Baptism

Postby water on Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:23 pm

There are so many ideas out there regarding salvation that are just wrong...and sometimes they are really difficult to figure out.

I use the TOTC rule...Thief On The Cross.

Was he baptized? Did he receive communion? Did he have a chance to do good works? Did he say a certain prayer a certain way?

What did he do?

Luke 23

39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!”

40 But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? 41 We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Now is the time to be the Sons of Issachar - 1 Chronicles 12:32

My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20
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Re: Baptism

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:15 am

Abiding, I am near Canton. I do want to be baptized.. as an act of obedience. I really feel I should.
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:25 am

InNeedofaSavior wrote:Abiding, I am near Canton. I do want to be baptized.. as an act of obedience. I really feel I should.


Oh, InNeedofaSavior....my question did not apply to whether or not one should be baptized. I definitely feel they should be baptized. I was merely asking the question of who could do/administer the baptizing. Forgive me if I confused the issue.
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Re: Baptism

Postby InNeedofaSavior on Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:35 am

Whoops! Sorry.. I wrote the wrong name. I meant "Lastdaysbroadcast" asked if I wanted to be baptized. Sorry about that. :mrgreen:
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:52 am

Oh, ok InNeedofaSavior ....thanks for clarifying that. :grin:
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Re: Baptism

Postby daffodyllady on Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:23 am

LastDaysBroadcast wrote:daffodyllady, it is perfectly fine that you do not agree with their doctrine but be careful about giving a "traditional" argument that is not supported by scripture nor grammatical/logical sense. ...


Well, the Word says that when answering a fool, you can answer him either according to his folly, or not according to his folly.

Therefore, I do not think it is wrong to get them to question the simple logic of their reasoning, by turning their foolish doctrine against itself.

...when you state that “That the truth of the trinity of God does not have to be explainable to mortal brains,” I would ask where in the scripture does it state that?

I mean simply that God and His abilities is bigger than our finite minds can comprehend. Do you need scripture for that? Many people add to scripture when trying to explain the trinity; using the egg, or the properties of water, for example. I do not think that is wise.

This goes to the root of the problem: the pride of man, demanding that God must explain Himself to suit our understanding, before we will believe Him. My approach is to appeal to the faith that already exists in the Oneness belief- that God is above our understanding.

I asked a Oneness preacher how big his God was. I asserted that my God was bigger than His. He is able to be and do things that our human minds cannot comprehend. He is able to be both One, and yet Three, simultaneously. The Oneness God was not able to do that, because it looks impossible to the human mind. They mock the idea of a God who doesn't make sense to their human understanding.

And this approach does work! I had a lengthy discussion with that Oneness preacher, in which I asked him these questions. He got quieter and quieter, and at last said I had given him a lot to think about.
Last edited by daffodyllady on Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Baptism

Postby daffodyllady on Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:28 am

water wrote:There are so many ideas out there regarding salvation that are just wrong...and sometimes they are really difficult to figure out.

I use the TOTC rule...Thief On The Cross.

Was he baptized? Did he receive communion? Did he have a chance to do good works? Did he say a certain prayer a certain way?

What did he do? ...


water...
The thief on the cross died before the commandment was given to be baptized.
Therefore, the argument does not hold water.
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Re: Baptism

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:21 am

Back from my trip - a few thoughts/responses:

Abiding - no, I don't believe a minister is required for baptism but from a scripture point of view, throughout the book of Acts, it would appear to be a minister who did the baptizing.

WATER - your basis of TOTC does not hold water. I agree with daffodyllady. The Great Commission had not been given, the Law was in effect.

InNeedofaSavior - I am just west of Dayton but would be willing to drive to wherever you would want if you need someone to baptize you. We would just need water! As being a public school teacher, I have plenty of time right now.

daffodyllady - when it comes to doctrine, scripture is always needed. Just to debate from your own point of view without a foundation of scripture is not good. Doctrine/teaching can easily be established by two or three witnesses within scripture. Without that foundation you will inherit the wind!

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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:28 am

LastDaysBroadcast wrote:Abiding - no, I don't believe a minister is required for baptism but from a scripture point of view, throughout the book of Acts, it would appear to be a minister who did the baptizing


Thanks for your response, LastDaysBroadcast. Nor do I believe a minister is required nor can I find scripture to support such a notion. As for Acts, those "ministers" were Jewish as well... :wink: If the "Great Commission" applies to all believers today, that would include baptism.
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Re: Baptism

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:32 am

Yes, but born again Jews!
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Of course, was not most of the scriptures written by Jews?
"But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them . . ."
Yea, I would say the Great Commission is for everybody.
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:36 am

LastDaysBroadcast wrote:Yes, but born again Jews!


So, were we to use Acts as the basis for minister-only baptism, that fact would even narrow down those who are qualified even further. :mrgreen: Must be 1) ministers 2) Jewish and 3) Messianic Jew.....
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Re: Baptism

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:47 am

Abiding, I believe Acts (of the Apostles) is a good act to follow! It gives the historical record of the church growing from Jerusalem, to Samaria, and on to the Gentiles. And, as I said, it would appear that baptism was completed by a preacher - because they had just completed preaching to those wanting to be baptized. There is one example, however, that seems to show where someone besides a minister did the baptism. That would be in Act 9 with the conversion of Saul/Paul being baptized after going to see Ananias. So . . .

As far as your statement of "Must be 1) ministers 2) Jewish and 3) Messianic Jew.....," I would say no. The first preachers/ministers were Messianic Jews because as Jesus said, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47). As the Gospel spread, so did the race/nationality of believers, preachers, baptizers, etc. Church history records this.
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:30 am

As the Gospel spread, so did the race/nationality of believers, preachers, baptizers, etc. Church history records this.


Agreed. Hence the priesthood of all believers and the commission:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matt 28:19-20

Given initially to the 12 but spread to include all believers regardless of race, gender, or ethnicity throughout future generations. Consequently, I don't find scripture that limits the administration of baptism to one particular member of the body even though traditionally it has been thus.
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Re: Baptism

Postby notworthcomparing on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:53 am

Concerning the Thief on the Cross. Yes the great commission had not been given at that time, but there is a bigger issue.

Christ is calling us into relationship. He is LORD and we are His disciples. The question is not when did you get wet, but when did you surrender and trust your life to Him?

Once you are overwhelmed by His grace, baptism will be such a small stepping stone as you seek to pour out your life in gratitude for what has been done.

The thief had no opportunity for baptism, but was saved. Christ ordered baptism, but He is not so petty as to rule someone out who had surrendered His heart, but had no opportunity.

I am not so worried about the new believer without opportunity as I am the long time believer who is unchanged and unmoved.

I think we worry about these things, because we are too close to the shore and not living in the deep water. The deep is where we are called, instead we sit on the shore having satisfied ourselves that we have completed a task given in a verse, knowing that we are far from everything He has called us to.

Confession of faith - check
Baptized - check
Sharing my faith - check
Discipling others - check
Loving well - check
Denying myself - check
Trusting - check
Fearless - check
Loving widows and orphans - check

I don't think the apostles wondered if they were saved. They were all in. Living in deep water.

The question is not how close to Eph 2:8-9, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, James 1:27.... can I be and still be saved (I was baptized once, said a sinners prayer once), but leaving the elementary things behind we press on. These things have been written that you may know.

I like this quote:

Forgotten God – Francis Chan (Theology of the Holy Spirit 101)

I think it’s needless for us to debate about when the Holy Spirit becomes a part of someone’s life. In my own life, was it when I first prayed as a little kid and believed I was speaking to Someone? Was it in junior high; when I raised my hand after hearing an evangelist who literally scared the hell out of me? Was it when I got baptized? Was it in high school, when I actually had a personal relationship with Jesus? Could it have been in college, when I came forward at a charismatic Bible study to “receive the Spirit”? Or was it later in life, when I chose to surrender my life fully to Jesus?

---

It is easier to say a prayer, obey a command than to surrender your life. We want to check a box, be okay and go on with our lives. He wants all of us.


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Re: Baptism

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:30 pm

The question is not how close to Eph 2:8-9, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, James 1:27.... can I be and still be saved (I was baptized once, said a sinners prayer once), but leaving the elementary things behind we press on. These things have been written that you may know.

I like this quote:

Forgotten God – Francis Chan (Theology of the Holy Spirit 101)

I think it’s needless for us to debate about when the Holy Spirit becomes a part of someone’s life. In my own life, was it when I first prayed as a little kid and believed I was speaking to Someone? Was it in junior high; when I raised my hand after hearing an evangelist who literally scared the hell out of me? Was it when I got baptized? Was it in high school, when I actually had a personal relationship with Jesus? Could it have been in college, when I came forward at a charismatic Bible study to “receive the Spirit”? Or was it later in life, when I chose to surrender my life fully to Jesus?


I agree. The question is not "how much can I get away with and still be saved". IMO, as Mark stated earlier, the question was about saved by works vs saved by grace and that is a very important issue that goes to the heart of the gospel. We never move on from the gospel. We need to preach it to ourselves every day.
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Re: Baptism

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:39 pm

Show your faith without obedience, and see how far that gets you.

God says that faith without obedience is dead.

Can you get into heaven on dead faith? Don't bet your soul on it.
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Re: Baptism

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:14 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:If there's any act we need to perform in order to be saved, then it's no longer faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone, but has been corrupted into faith+works, which is heresy.


I'm sorry but you got it wrong. Faith + no works = DEATH

Our works do matter very much, and without obedience to the Father, we don't go to heaven. Period. Even if you have a ton of faith, your faith alone is not enough to get you to heaven. You must be crucified with Christ.

The problem is that our works alone are not enough. We also need faith. You cannot have one without the other and expect to go to heaven. One without the other is dead.

It's like this: You cannot drive a car without oil in the engine, nor can you drive it without gas. You have to have both.

I know, the thief on the cross. He didn't have time to change his actions when he came to faith in Jesus. Well we don't know that for sure one way or the other, but, God is the judge. He can bend the rules for whomever He chooses. But for those of us who are walkin around here on earth, living our lives with the freedom to make decisions, we're generally held accountable for those decisions.

And yes, I realize that none of us can be perfect. But you know what, God expects us to do our best. And He is the judge who decides the fate of every single person on earth. Some people may get away with more sins than others. There is no black and white recipe for what sins we can commit and which ones we can't. It is up to Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith, weather or not our names will be found in the Book of Life on judgment day. That's why we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Not many things bother me more than when a Christian proclaims that we can go to heaven by faith alone. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

Revelation 2:26
And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

-Is water baptism necessary for salvation, I don't know but the Bible says to do it so I did it. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that I was living in blatant rebellion to what the Bible commands us to do.


Edited to add this:

James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Re: Baptism

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:36 pm

daffodyllady wrote:Show your faith without obedience, and see how far that gets you.

God says that faith without obedience is dead.

Can you get into heaven on dead faith? Don't bet your soul on it.


I read a wise man (whose name I can't remember :doh: ) once said something to the effect of "You haven't argued grace correctly until someone accuses you of giving a license to sin." Yes, of course real faith results in obedience. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.
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Re: Baptism

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:03 pm

AndCanItBe wrote:
daffodyllady wrote:Show your faith without obedience, and see how far that gets you.

God says that faith without obedience is dead.

Can you get into heaven on dead faith? Don't bet your soul on it.


I read a wise man (whose name I can't remember :doh: ) once said something to the effect of "You haven't argued grace correctly until someone accuses you of giving a license to sin."


If you don't mind me saying, that man was not wise at all. I would absolutely hate for a person to get the impression from me that they have a license to sin. That's horrible! Not wise!

Daniel 12:3
Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


Those who are wise should be turning people TO righteousness, not AWAY.
Yes, of course real faith results in obedience. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.


No, real faith does not always result in obedience. Many people have significant amounts of faith, but yet they never take that final step of dieing to themselves, taking their cross, and following Jesus, but instead they choose to live life their way.
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Re: Baptism

Postby water on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:22 pm

notworthcomparing wrote:Concerning the Thief on the Cross. Yes the great commission had not been given at that time, but there is a bigger issue.

Christ is calling us into relationship. He is LORD and we are His disciples. The question is not when did you get wet, but when did you surrender and trust your life to Him?

Once you are overwhelmed by His grace, baptism will be such a small stepping stone as you seek to pour out your life in gratitude for what has been done.

The thief had no opportunity for baptism, but was saved. Christ ordered baptism, but He is not so petty as to rule someone out who had surrendered His heart, but had no opportunity.


Exactly, notworthcomparing.

Should we be baptized? Absolutely. If you believe Jesus paid your debt, why wouldn't you be baptized? IMHO, when people truly believe they have been rescued from eternal fire, they want to do everything and anything they can to follow the person that rescued them. Jesus was baptized to show us it was the proper thing to do.

What happens to a person who truly accepts Jesus and dies before he has the chance to be baptized?

Can a person be baptized and go to Hell?

What saves us? Our act of obedience in baptism or our belief in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins?

Baptism is a sign of obedience, it is a declaration before the powers of Heaven, Earth, and Hell, that you have made your choice. Being baptized was one of the most awesome moments of my life.

If you believe, confess your sins to the Lord. If you believe, repent. If you believe, be baptized. If you believe, obey the Lord, love God above all, and love your neighbors and enemies.

If you believe, follow Jesus, be baptized. But, if you happen to bite the dust before you get the chance, don't sweat it, God has a backup plan, Plan G, for grace.
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Re: Baptism

Postby burien1 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:25 pm

What about people on their deathbeds ? Do you all think it is impossible for them to be saved ? They are usually in no shape to go and be Baptised, or to take up the cross and follow anyone anywhere, so to speak. All some can do at all, is genuinely believe that Jesus is their Savior.
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Re: Baptism

Postby water on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:25 pm

Also, I noted a post above where someone said to just go find a Baptist pastor and he will be more than glad to baptize you. That is no joke...you might get whiplash on the way...just go do it and smile big because you know its what God wants you to do...and those are the best moments in life.
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Re: Baptism

Postby notworthcomparing on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:28 pm

YES!!

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Re: Baptism

Postby burien1 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:29 pm

I'm sorry Water. I had missed your post, before I posted.
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Re: Baptism

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:31 pm

If you believe, follow Jesus, be baptized. But, if you happen to bite the dust before you get the chance, don't sweat it, God has a backup plan, Plan G, for grace.


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Re: Baptism

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:32 pm

burien1 wrote:What about people on their deathbeds ? Do you all think it is impossible for them to be saved ? They are usually in no shape to go and be Baptised, or to take up the cross and follow anyone anywhere, so to speak. All some can do at all, is genuinely believe that Jesus is their Savior.


I think they can be saved. God knows they arent going to have a chance to go out and choose to sin or not sin. He is merciful. As for the rest of us, He knows that we ARE going to be faced with those decisions, and He expects us to overcome.

Why does it have to be a one size fits all under every single circumstance, 100% of the time, with no mercy. People try to make it so black and white. But the truth is that God is the judge. Meaning He takes into account ALL of the circumstances in each life and makes a righteous decision based on HIS OWN DESIRE.

Of course He can have mercy on a person laying on their deathbed, and yet require you and I to be Holy. He has the right to do that.

But we cannot just say that since people on their deathbeds don't have to do good works, we don't have to either. That's just an excuse to do whatever you want.
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Re: Baptism

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:40 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:
AndCanItBe wrote:
daffodyllady wrote:Show your faith without obedience, and see how far that gets you.

God says that faith without obedience is dead.

Can you get into heaven on dead faith? Don't bet your soul on it.


I read a wise man (whose name I can't remember :doh: ) once said something to the effect of "You haven't argued grace correctly until someone accuses you of giving a license to sin."


If you don't mind me saying, that man was not wise at all. I would absolutely hate for a person to get the impression from me that they have a license to sin. That's horrible! Not wise!


Then the Apostle Paul was not wise in the writing of Romans, because he was accused of the same.

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.




Daniel 12:3
Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


Those who are wise should be turning people TO righteousness, not AWAY.
Yes, of course real faith results in obedience. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.


No, real faith does not always result in obedience. Many people have significant amounts of faith, but yet they never take that final step of dieing to themselves, taking their cross, and following Jesus, but instead they choose to live life their way.


We disagree on what the definition of saving faith is. The demons believe, and those that believe that Jesus died on the Cross but live their lives their own way, without obedience, have the same kind of "faith". Just like James says, it's dead, it doesn't save. Saving faith is sealed with the Holy Spirit and produces obedience as fruit. First you believed, then you obeyed.

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
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Re: Baptism

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:49 pm

AndCanItBe wrote:
Then the Apostle Paul was not wise in the writing of Romans, because he was accused of the same.

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


I dont quite see where Paul was being accused of giving people a liscense to sin. Could you point that particular verse out?

We disagree on what the definition of saving faith is. Saving faith is sealed with the Holy Spirit and produces obedience as fruit. First you believed, then you obeyed.


It's interesting you mention "saving faith" because that phrase is not in the Bible anywhere. There is only one kind of faith. Our faith is not what saves us, so therefore there is no such thing as "saving faith" It is what we CHOOSE to do with our faith that contributes to our salvation. We can choose to act on it or ignore it. It is our decision. That is what we were put on this earth to do is decide if we are going to walk by faith, or not. It's a test. Just as the garden of eden was a test for adam and eve, so is our life a test, and we already know that it's not enough to simply believe in God, we must obey.
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Re: Baptism

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:02 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:
AndCanItBe wrote:
Then the Apostle Paul was not wise in the writing of Romans, because he was accused of the same.

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


I dont quite see where Paul was being accused of giving people a liscense to sin. Could you point that particular verse out?


There are many who espouse works salvation that reject Paul's words about grace, and many who see grace as a license to sin, anticipating this, he, or the Holy Spirit through him, felled them all with verse 31 and what follows in Chapter 4, which I quoted.

We disagree on what the definition of saving faith is. Saving faith is sealed with the Holy Spirit and produces obedience as fruit. First you believed, then you obeyed.


It's interesting you mention "saving faith" because that phrase is not in the Bible anywhere. There is only one kind of faith. Our faith is not what saves us, so therefore there is no such thing as "saving faith" It is what we CHOOSE to do with our faith that contributes to our salvation. We can choose to act on it or ignore it. It is our decision. That is what we were put on this earth to do is decide if we are going to walk by faith, or not. It's a test. Just as the garden of eden was a test for adam and eve, so is our life a test, and we already know that it's not enough to simply believe in God, we must obey.


No, the phrase isn't there, but the quote about the demons is James 2:19, which you already posted previously.
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Re: Baptism

Postby water on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:07 pm

Oh yah...one more thing.

Everyone has seen the news about the flooding of the Missouri River, around Omaha...where both nuclear and waste treatment plants are in danger of being flooded.

I just thought I would mention you probably don't want to be baptized downstream of Omaha, else the nuclear poo baptism might not quite qualify as true baptism, and or be the last thing you did in this life.

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My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20
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Re: Baptism

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:08 pm

water wrote:Oh yah...one more thing.

Everyone has seen the news about the flooding of the Missouri River, around Omaha...where both nuclear and waste treatment plants are in danger of being flooded.

I just thought I would mention you probably don't want to be baptized downstream of Omaha, else the nuclear poo baptism might not quite qualify as true baptism, and or be the last thing you did in this life.

:boxer:


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