And your women shall be silent in church....

the place to ask general questions not prophecy related

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby sparklymomma on Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:57 pm

Suzanne, I have asked, where in the bible does it say the man is the 'spritual covering' of the wife? I really looked for it, and couldn't find it.<br>
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Also, you are holding Sarah up as an example, and yet...Sarah did not trust the Lord to do what he said he would do-give them a son. She talked her husband into taking Haggai as a concubine, and we all know how well that worked out. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :scared --><img src=http://fool.exler.ru/sm/str.gif ALT=":scared"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In regard to this board, I am assuming that Herb is the head of it and is the authority here? I also assume that if he does not recognize himself as being over the women moderators in terms of the order of this board, then in my opinion there is a problem.--tsth<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>
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Of course Herb is over the moderators...It's his board. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :dunno --><img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> What is it you are implying...do you have a personal problem with the moderators here? The female moderators here?<br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Jody, what is it you are wanting to hear on the matter? Is it vital for the woman to be a focal point of prophecy? Is it vital for her to be noticed exclusively within the congregation during a service? I'm sure that in many congregations that there are women that the pastor knows about, who have the gift of prophecy, and I'm sure that the Holy Spirit has been the one to reveal this to him and probably a handful of others close to her, but what is it you are looking for in regard to her? More notability? More focus upon her within the congregation? I'm just not sure what the point of the topic is in this matter? Obviously the title of prophetess is not of high regard because it is only used once in the NT, so I'm not sure what it is that we are trying to get at, other than trying to discredit the command of the order among men and women in the church, and to me, this is destructive to do.<br>
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I honestly don't think that's what you're intending, but I guess I'm surprised by your direction in this, or at least the implied direction???<br>
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In His Love,<br>
Suzanne<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>
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Suzanne...is this a matter concerning salvation? What is the big deal...I really don't know why you are reacting this way to the discussion...You're going rather off the deep end...simply questioning if a woman has to be absolutely silent in church, means she wants special attention? A microphone and spotlight on her whenever she wants to add her .02? Is trying usurp men's authority??? Wow...that is a bit of a reach.<br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I am not saying that women cannot speak at all</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, I am merely saying that she must be under her husband's authority. There has to be an order of authority for all among the body, in order to defend against falsehoods. This is where/how all false doctrines begin, it slips in unchecked through anyone who is not under authority.<br>
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In His Love,<br>
Suzanne<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>
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But look...you say women <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>don't</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> have to be silent, and yet, that is what the verses say...<br>
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...so, you put <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>your</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> own interpretation on it...which is, they don't have to be silent but must be under the authority of their husbands... <p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/CoffeeStupid.txt"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
sparklymomma
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Ready1 on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:40 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Suzanne, I have asked, where in the bible does it say the man is the 'spritual covering' of the wife? I really looked for it, and couldn't find it.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Is this the passage you were looking for? It seems to imply that.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.<br>
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.<br>
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.<br>
1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.<br>
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.<br>
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. <br>
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.<br>
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. <br>
<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Sorry; edited to add, [so that there can be no 'personal pet peeves'.] (grin)<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. <br>
1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.<br>
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. <br>
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p>Just observing, <br>
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E.</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ready1@herbsdiscussionboard>Ready1</A> at: 3/1/06 4:59 pm<br></i>
Ready1
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby blessedayers on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:46 pm

Ok personal pet peeve here...LOL<br>
<br>
Why is this part always left out when those verses are addressed?<br>
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1Co 11:16 <br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>But if any man seem to be contentious, <br>
we have no such custom, <br>
neither the churches of God.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:navy;">For I will give you a mouth and wisdom...<br>
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;">Jody ***Psalms 119***</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--> </p><i></i>
blessedayers
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:59 pm

Cause some see only what they want to see.....?<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
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Abiding in His Word
 

Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying ourselves

Postby cielohim on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:15 pm

The Lord has used many women in mighty ways to advance his Kingdom.... and I believe he will continue to use women in mighty ways to advance his Kingdom..<br>
<br>
But concerning the Lord's command for his Church within the congregation of the saints "it is disgraceful for a woman to speak and she must remain silent"....<br>
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That is exactly what the scripture says... We do not, have not and will never receive more authority than the Apostles did...<br>
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So, who are we???? We cannot question what is says... it is plain... We cannot justify actions contrary to the scripture... if we do... we are flat out deceived....<br>
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There are no contradictions.... yes woman can prophesy... because it is written they would.... yes women can testify about the Lord and through the Gospel a soul may be saved, yes women can do many great things for the Lord... But in the context of the congregation of the saints... it is the Lord's command that they are to remain silent.. Why is that such an issue. It is pride within our hearts… and many try to minimize the fact that the issue is not with Paul…. It is with the Lord… “It is the Lord’s command”… Unless you are willing to stand up in the face of an Apostle and tell him… “You are a liar… this is not the Lord’s command…”<br>
<br>
So Paul is not the issue, the command of the Lord is the issue.… Paul passed on what he received for the foundations of Christ’s Church… and if we have a problem with his teachings… then we really need to go directly to the one who gave Paul what to teach in this instance…. “This is the Lord’s command”…<br>
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It is the Lord's command and who are we to be contentious about it... is Paul not clear??? <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> He even goes on to say that if anyone choose not to recognize this… then that person is to be ignored… but before that… he says… If anyone thinks he or she is spiritually minded… That bolsters the point …… Those who call themselves mature in the Lord but refuse to accept this teaching…<br>
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I many instances the issue we are dealing with is one of Pride, and wanting to feel significance. But in this day and age what we are blind to is that more significance would be bestowed on the woman who actually tried to line herself up with exactly what the word says… and actually give the churches an example that we have not seen in this age……. That woman in her silence would be advancing the Kingdom more than a women who felt the Lord’s command is not relevant to her because she in heart truly does not want to remain silent…. And why… look at the motives and see them for what they are?<br>
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Let me ask this question. Is there any less salvation for women who remain silent and do what God commanded within his own congregations?…. No, That woman is actually doing what the Lord said do… in a humble and contrite heart out of respect for God’s commands.. And that is Powerful… <br>
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Is there any less salvation for women who decided “this is not the Lord’s command”… In fact I am going to lead a congregation myself And I do not have to remain silent??? Well I believe the Lord is merciful.. But that woman has knowingly decided to disregard the command of the Lord for the sake of wanting to feel significant by the words that she …just must speak…..within the congregation.<br>
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Like I said…. This is just one of many issues we are failing at in these last days… in many ways we all are out of order… But we cannot justify our actions…that is why we all should continually pray for mercy because in our Church and lives we are disobedient to the Lord’s commands…<br>
<br>
I wonder what it would be like if we justified the disobedience to other clear commands that the Lord has given… Such as: do not commit sexual immorality… Can we give the excuse…. “Well the context of the day was such that sexual immorality was not condoned but now since a couple of years have passed the scripture that speaks about sexual immorality does not pertain to this Church age…. The culture is different.” <br>
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The pride of our hearts and the culture we live in will not allow most to see the beauty of women remaining silent in the churches… and just because women should remain silent does not make them any less heirs to the Kingdom… it does not make them any less important in the role they play for Christ… it does not make them any less human,…. Any less God’s servant… It does not make them any less… It makes them obedient to a command that was given by the Lord… <br>
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So which is better obedience…… or disobedience and justifying the disregard of clear commands of God???<br>
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I say this once again… we all must continue to pray our Lord is merciful for the attitude of our hearts and what we have done with clear instructions on how to live holy, have orderly worship, and be obedient to him in all things…. (This is just one issue of many.. And many times pride is the root to not being able to just…… do what it says). We can come up with every excuse in the world and the words will never change… It says what is says… and that is for the purpose of God’s order.. That He himself established for His own Church…. So it is not Paul’s command… He has made it clear… “This is the Lord’s command”… and who are we to question the Lord? <br>
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It is the Lord’s command…<br>
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In him,<br>
<br>
Cielohim <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cielohim@herbsdiscussionboard>cielohim</A> at: 3/1/06 5:21 pm<br></i>
cielohim
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby SherreeL on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:28 pm

And around and around we go!!We are talking in circles and nothing is being acomplished. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :blahblah --><img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_16.gif ALT=":blahblah"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<br>
Sherree</p><i></i>
SherreeL
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby sparklymomma on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:38 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> There are no contradictions.... yes woman can prophesy... because it is written they would.... yes women can testify about the Lord and through the Gospel a soul may be saved, yes women can do many great things for the Lord... But in the context of the congregation of the saints... it is the Lord's command that they are to remain silent.. Why is that such an issue. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>It is pride within our hearts…</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and many try to minimize the fact that the issue is not with Paul…. It is with the Lord… “It is the Lord’s command”… Unless you are willing to stand up in the face of an Apostle and tell him… “You are a liar… this is not the Lord’s command…”<br>
<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
<br>
Again...we who asked the question what it means to be silent in church, are now proud, and calling Paul a liar, as well as wanting to supplant men and usurp their authority?<br>
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Good grief <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :doh --><img src=http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/doh.gif ALT=":doh"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
<br>
Let me put this plainly...<br>
<br>
<br>
What does it mean to be silent in church?<br>
<br>
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I am just trying to explore the practical living out of this verse...<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :dunno --><img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> To see how it applies today. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :dunno --><img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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JAD has raised some interesting points, as well as Jody...Who was Corinthians written to? Did Paul know that he was addressing the entire Christian population, spanning 2000 years, when he wrote his letters, or was he writing to Corinthians in ##AD?<br>
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It really seems that some are threatened by the idea that we are questioning this long held christian tradition...<br>
<br>
<br>
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So much of the Bible, to me, is complicated, in..."how do I use this in my life today?" Not, "How do I get away with doing what I want?"<br>
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And it's hard not to resent that implication....<br>
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<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/CoffeeStupid.txt"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
sparklymomma
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:45 pm

so, I suggest that we answer the question posed in the thread topic before going on to other "women" verses. It's only fair to stay focused in order to study this and not get sidetracked.<br>
<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :wink2 --><img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/wink2.gif ALT=":wink2"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
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Abiding in His Word
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby SherreeL on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:59 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So much of the Bible, to me, is complicated, in..."how do I use this in my life today?" Not, "How do I get away with doing what I want?"<br>
<br>
And it's hard not to resent that implication....<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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I agree, Steph. I started reading this thread to learn how to apply it to my own life in finding the answers to my questions. I've heard everything from the implication that us women are lower than low for saying anything in an assembly, to being accused of how to get away with diobedience!!! <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<br>
Sherree</p><i></i>
SherreeL
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby mrshalfcent on Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:03 pm

has it occurred to anyone that perhaps Paul was instructing on the family unit and how families should be able to discuss these things at home making sure they conform to the apostles teaching in all matters of the faith?<br>
How many times have you gone to hear someone teach and preach and had questions that would be out of order to stand up and ask questions? Seems to me that the corinthians had bad left over habits from what they came out of. And Paul was teaching not that the women should shut up...but that the questions should be discussed at home as a family. Very practical methinks.<br>
Here we have the beginning situation of the christian family being taught to study and discuss at home, going over what has just been delivered by the leader, pastor etc... and if necessary the pastor or bishop would meet with them another time to teach further if there was confusion?<br>
Is that possible that is what is meant here?<br>
Is it possible that Paul was teaching that the husband and wife are to work together and that no one was above another but that as Christ is the head and husband of the Church and she (the church) is in submission to his holy authority that the family is also to work that way? The natural submission would take place if the people understood this. <br>
for these corinthians, that would be a new concept. <br>
As gentiles they had no real knowledge of how God's idea of the family unit was to be until Paul told them. Recall how many times Paul taught in the gentile letters about the headship/husband/wife idea. It must have been a topic sorely needed of continual teaching and expounding.<br>
<br>
thoughts?<br>
<br>
<p> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/bbbar011.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
[The Devil] reminds us that when Christ, as a lamb brought to the slaughter, opened not His mouth–and suggests that we do likewise. Then if we notice his foot in the door and rise to oppose him, he appeals to our desire to be Christ-like. “Love everybody and all will be well,” he urges. The shepherd, taken in by this sweet talk, is afraid to use his club, and the wolf gets the sheep! (A. W. Tozer: <br>
Renewed Day by Day, August 25)<br>
<br>
"Odd, the way the less the Bible is read the more it is translated." - C. S. Lewis<br>
<br>
The Bible is like a lion; it does not need to be defended; just let it loose and it will defend itself. <br>
-- Martin Luther<br>
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"First, then, before you can speak peace to your hearts, you must be made to see, made to feel, made to weep over, made to bewail, your actual transgressions against the Law of God." - George Whitefield<br>
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mrshalfcent
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby SherreeL on Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:13 pm

Interesting Laura. I'm thinking on this. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<br>
Sherree</p><i></i>
SherreeL
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby tsth on Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:49 pm

Dear Ready1,<br>
<br>
Thank you, yes those are the passages I was referring to.<br>
<br>
mrshalfcent, you basically summed up what I was getting at, I just wasn't as eloquent. <br>
<br>
I am still troubled by this topic and am surprised at some of the reactions it brings. I go back to wondering why this is even being discussed, as I don't see that there will be agreement on it. I will say this though, the order of authority is something that really should be looked into in regard to the home and the church today. I also agree with the above subject title, as humility and obedience is always better.<br>
<br>
In His Love,<br>
Suzanne <p></p><i></i>
tsth
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby tsth on Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:53 pm

Dear sparkly,<br>
<br>
I meant to answer your question as to why I keep holding Sarah up as example? I do so, because that is the example that was given for me as a woman, through the Word of God. I've posted this passage a couple of times on this thread.<br>
<br>
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. <br>
<br>
In His Love,<br>
Suzanne <p></p><i></i>
tsth
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby sparklymomma on Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:17 pm

Yes, I understand that women are to be submissive to their own husbands. I believe in that, I live that. I have been blessed for it. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
<br>
What I am not understanding, is, what does it mean for a husband to be a spiritual covering for his wife?<br>
<br>
<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/CoffeeStupid.txt"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
sparklymomma
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:28 pm

O.K., since we're going all over the place with this discussion....<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
In Genesis 21:11, we are told that it was "very grievous" to Abraham to do what Sarah demanded. Did the Lord remind Sarah that she must obey him? No; He told Abraham that he must "hearken to her voice." The hebrew word translated "hearken" here is the same hebrew word translated "obey" in Gen. 22:18.<br>
<br>
So Abraham "hearkened/obeyed" Sarah's voice and sent Hagar away.<br>
<br>
As it always is and will be; God is with the "right", not the sex or gender.<br>
<br>
And then there's Abigail (1 Sam 25). She knew her husband was a foolish and worthless man, and frankly said so. She did not even consult him when she took 200 loaves and two bottles of wine, etc. and gave them to David, knowing full well that her husband had just refused to give David anything. The Bible implies that Abigail did the right and prudent thing in what she well knew was her husband's will. She showed moral courage and David praised her for it. " And later, the Lord smote Nabel and he died.<br>
<br>
1Sa 25:38 And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.<br>
<br>
1Sa 25:39 And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be the LORD, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept his servant from evil: for the LORD hath returned the wickedness of Nabal upon his own head. And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife. <br>
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Again, the Lord sides with a person because of righteousness, not because of gender.<br>
<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
</p><i></i>
Abiding in His Word
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby Bob the Quiet on Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:16 pm

I agree with mrshalfscent. Basically, the way I'm seeing it, women being commanded to remain silent in church does not necessarily mean that a woman cannot at all, by any means, speak during a church service. What if a church body had a time during the service where members, regardless of sex, shared their experiences (for example, persecutions suffered)? If women are strictly forbidden to at all speak during a church service then women would not be able to share their experiences with the church body as a whole. Nothing good would be able to come of it.<br>
<br>
What I think it means that women are to be silent in church is simply more of a "don't speak unless spoken to" during the time in which the pastor/bishop/whatever-they-called-it-then was giving the sermon.<br>
<br>
Then the "asking their husbands at home" part would, I think, deffinately mean that the family should discuss the sermon/teaching at home so as not to disrupt the service (and a disrupted service could lead to bad feelings in the church body I'm sure). <p>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~<br>
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon</p><i></i>
Bob the Quiet
 

Re: Humility and Obediance is bettery than justifying oursel

Postby SherreeL on Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:38 am

Thanks Bob for your comments. What you and Laura have said seems, right now to me, to be the closest thing to the truth that I have seen. I will go on to say that I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman sharing something from the Word that the Lord has shown her, either. Sharing a dream or vision would be acceptable, too. I'm not saying that the woman should stand behind the pulpit and preach, though. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<br>
Sherree</p><i></i>
SherreeL
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Lazarus43 on Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:41 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NASB)<br>
14:34         The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.<br>
14:35         If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
I just wanted to add what I thought when I first studied this "women be silent in church" question.<br>
<br>
As I understand it, the first assemblies of believers were more like a Bible study or discussion group, with some leadership provided by those who were more spiritually mature (elders). They were meetings after the pattern of the Jewish synagogue. One person did not usually dominate and deliver a long uninterrupted speech as is common in what men have turned the assembly into today. In these meetings questions were accepted and discussed.<br>
<br>
My understanding is that women were not to do this interrupting and questioning. They were to "ask their own husbands at home." <br>
<br>
Blessings,<br>
Lazarus43 <p></p><i></i>
Lazarus43
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Be still on Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:52 am

<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/bestill/silent-woman.jpg" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <p>Karen<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:green;">Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:green;">Jeremiah 48:10 Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord deceitfully, And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<br>
</p><i></i>
Be still
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Bob the Quiet on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:15 am

<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :humm --><img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/hum.gif ALT=":humm"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~<br>
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon</p><i></i>
Bob the Quiet
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby tsth on Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:40 pm

<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :sunshine --><img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_203.gif ALT=":sunshine"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
Well, I'd say that's an appropriate sign for this topic......................<br>
<br>
in a scary kinda way??? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :nanabooboo --><img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/nana3.gif ALT=":nanabooboo"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
In His Love,<br>
Suzanne <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tsth@herbsdiscussionboard>tsth</A> at: 3/2/06 2:42 pm<br></i>
tsth
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby blessedayers on Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:58 pm

<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolllaughing --><img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif ALT=":rolllaughing"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
Where do you all find these images...<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :laughone --><img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_72.gif ALT=":laughone"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:navy;">For I will give you a mouth and wisdom...<br>
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;">Jody ***Psalms 119***</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--> </p><i></i>
blessedayers
 

It's a matter of Obediance

Postby cielohim on Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:49 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Again...we who asked the question what it means to be silent in church, are now proud, and calling Paul a liar, as well as wanting to supplant men and usurp their authority?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->I don’t believe (at least how I look at this issue) this is not about supplanting a man's authority parse....but this is about obedience to a command given by God himself for his Church and our lack of discernment given the times we live in to even be able to say wholeheartedly YES we should do what the Lord has commanded. Why??? Because it is written in our scripture for God's Church to do... Now we cannot even discern our lack of fear in questioning God.... The command should be followed.. It is the Lords command.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am just trying to explore the practical living out of this verse... To see how it applies today. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Truly If we actually did what the Lord said to do... we would see how much more conviction we would have and intern a closer relationship with the Lord... if we do what he has commanded... we would clearly see how the word is applicable to our lives and allows us to mature in him in ways we cannot in our disobediance..... (but in our own eyes our disobedience is justified... so we have justified our disobeciance... how then can we know the true signifigance of the application of the word for our growth... if we are disobedient to it????... that is in all issues not just this one ... but in this instance we have chosen to say... "NO Lord... we will not do what you command... culture has changed..") <br>
<br>
How about commands like: expel the immoral brother... In today’s congregations how many sexual immoral individuals are there? How many are being expelled? We might even be one of the ones who need to be expelled ourselves.... But as far as I have seen we have forsaken many of the practices given to us for true Christian culture within the congregations as prescribed by the words we read in the Bible. So are we justified??? NO we are not... and it is better to acknowledge that than to feel bold enough to stand in oppostion to a command given by the Lord God through a Man whom God gave the power to raise the Dead... through a man Whom God himself took to heaven and gave revelation to... So understand we do not fight against Paul... our flesh is fighting agains the Lord's command.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>JAD has raised some interesting points, as well as Jody...Who was Corinthians written to? Did Paul know that he was addressing the entire Christian population, spanning 2000 years, when he wrote his letters, or was he writing to Corinthians in ##AD?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->It's funny how at times we pick and choose verses out of the bible to agree with and ones to disagree... Paul wrote almost the whole NT as we have our scripture assembled today... He told us point blank... "This is God's command"... I just do not see what is not clear about that? We quote Paul on other issues saying... Yes.. that is from the Lord... but here... we say???? Is that from the Lord or from Paul... Well there is absolutely no doubt unless we wish to decieve ourselves who the command is from... unless we are calling Paul a liar... "It is the Lord's command"..<br>
<br>
We can take other scripture and wholeheartedly agree that this is what the Church should do…. But then some scripture we say… NO this is not valid for Church today… we don’t have to do that one… even when we read “This is the Lord’s command”…<br>
<br>
What is clear is that we do not want to do what has been commanded... and again.. what is the motive??? It usually is pride or the feeling that having to be silent within the congregation as the command of the Lord says... makes a woman some how lesser than... That is so far from the TRUTH.... If a woman chooses to do exactly what God has commanded... she will be being obedient to a clear command of God....<br>
<br>
And we cannot use the cultural excuses to justify ourselves in opposition to this word... Paul asked... “are you the only people the word of God has reached...” and if an individual choose to ignore this commands for the congregations he himself will be ignored…. and I want to ask if we have the liberty to pick and choose which scripture we want to be relevant for our Churches today and disobey the rest because we do not agree with what it says for whatever reason we come up with to justify disobedience to a clear command of God.<br>
<br>
Which one of us would be willing to stand in front of Jesus even now and tell him... "You did not give Paul that command" and by the way... Lord... that command is not valid for the Church today because 5 years have passed and our societal culture has changed... So Lord... we do not have to do what you have commanded for your congregations in the year 2000.... <br>
<br>
If we can seriously do these things then what is the validity of our word? We can look at it... and then decide hmmm. "I don't want to do what is commanded by the Lord"....Or we can given any kind of fine sounding rationalization of why we should not do what the word says to do in our Church culture today….IE: culture has changed and this word is not relevant for my own congregation.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It really seems that some are threatened by the idea that we are questioning this long held Christian tradition...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Sparkle, what we fail to realize is that this ....along with many more commands given by God for his Church should always be a long held Christian tradition... It is a command from God. <br>
<br>
Whether or not a woman remains silent is between her and the Lord... whether or not a man stays faithful to his wife is between him in the Lord.... whether or not a child is submissive to their parents is between them and the Lord... What i am trying to say is that for me... this is not about a position of authority in God's Church for myself being a man.... (I lead my family in Christ and know my position in my Home).... <br>
<br>
This is about us being so blinded by our culture that we cannot even see how our hearts are in direct opposition to this clear command for women in God's Church.... If our hearts were not in opposition to it... Then every man and woman would be saying YES we should do exactly what this word says do. But what do we see....<br>
<br>
We see the open justification of directly disobeying a clear command given by God.... What is not clear about these words... "This is the Lord's command".... Truthfully This is not our Church... we did not provide the order for it...We did not die for it to Redeem any soul.... That came directly from the Lord and God gave certain men the Power to raise the dead....in fact others died at their feet... to prove He gave them the authority to found this Church... So by the authority of Christ and probably the countless revelation that Paul was given He writes...<br>
<br>
"This is the Lord's command"<br>
<br>
There is nothing not clear about this issue... what is clear is that our hearts, because of where we are in this day and age.... do not want to do what the words says to do....<br>
<br>
Once again.. this is not the only issue we are disobedient on... but I am wondering why we feel safe justifying ourselves in questioning a clear command in scripture? <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So much of the Bible, to me, is complicated, in..."how do I use this in my life today?" Not, "How do I get away with doing what I want?"… <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> I think at time that line gets blurred… because honestly if we did what was commanded even without understanding the why…. I believe God would make his commands relevant to our lives today and maturity would come from doing what his word says do in all areas… not just the women issue…. But that line does get blurred when our flesh has us questioning the validity of a scripture that says “This is the Lord’s command”…. If we lived by what is written in the word… and in all the congregations of the saints… we saw women remaining silent… this would be a mute point and our church culture would be like what is written… and our Church and homes would be in more order than they are now because of being obedient to commands given by God. Then we would know why God gave the command... but even if we don't... we should be obedient to them. Not just this one.<br>
<br>
But I guess somehow because a couple of years have passed we are exempt from the command of the Lord on this issue and now our Churches do not have to do what has been established by God and we now have the liberty to question what has been commanded and justify ourselves in our clear disobedience to a direct command of God.<br>
<br>
Now that we are at this point, it is scary…. Because we cannot even discern it.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em></em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Seriously ask these questions to your own heart...Brothers and sisters... did the word of God originate with us????...... No? Are we on this board the only people it has reached??? How about last year?? How about next year??? How about 100 years before us... in fact some people are over 100 years old?? How about 100 years after we are dead and gone??? Are we here at fulfilleprophecy the only people the word of God has reached???? No?<br>
<br>
Do we consider ourselves spiritually mature… spiritually minded? Yes/ No/ Maybe>>>> If even a little bit.... then it would be better for all of us to Acknowledge in our hearts beyond any doubt that what we see written is the Lords command... And acknowledge that our flesh has problems with it and deal with the motives why? But we cannot ever justify ourselves in clear opposition of what his commands say to do. So Lord please have mercy on us for the state of your Church.<br>
<br>
Remember, if we truly have a problem with the command we cannot question Paul… we must question Christ… we cannot minize that TRUTH... Like the Lord doesn't already know our heart in regards to how we feel about this command...<br>
<br>
He is the one who gave the command.... FOR HIS OWN CHURCH that he himself founded by His OWN BLOOD… He redeemed the souls… and He gave the commands. This is not our Church to do and say what we want with it…<br>
<br>
<br>
In him,<br>
<br>
Cielohim<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cielohim@herbsdiscussionboard>cielohim</A> at: 3/2/06 4:53 pm<br></i>
cielohim
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:43 pm

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>cielohim</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. You said:<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is nothing not clear about this issue...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Then would you answer the query posed here at the beginning of this thread. <br>
<br>
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>your sons and your daughters shall prophesy</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:<br>
Joe 2:29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.<br>
<br>
Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:<br>
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh: And <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:<br>
Act 2:18 Yea and on <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>My servants and on My handmaidens in those days </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->Will I pour forth of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy.<br>
<br>
Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him.<br>
Act 21:9 <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there some days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.<br>
<br>
1Co 14:29 And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern.<br>
1Co 14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence.<br>
1Co 14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted;<br>
1Co 14:32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets;<br>
1Co 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,<br>
1Co 14:34 <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.<br>
<br>
1) Can women prophecy as Joel and Acts say they will?<br>
<br>
2) Where can they prophecy if not in the church?<br>
<br>
3) Does "silence" imply they can't sing, teach a children's class, or a woman's Bible study?<br>
<br>
4) What law is Paul referring to in 1 Cor. 14:34 since every where else in his epistles he goes to great lengths to teach freedom from the law?<br>
<br>
Help us out here.<br>
<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
</p><i></i>
Abiding in His Word
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Lazarus43 on Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:29 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What law is Paul referring to in 1 Cor. 14:34 since every where else in his epistles he goes to great lengths to teach freedom from the law?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
Maybe one that was given to Adam and Eve:<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Genesis 3:16 (NASB)<br>
To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
As I said in my last post:<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NASB)<br>
14:34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.<br>
14:35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I just wanted to add what I thought when I first studied this "women be silent in church" question.<br>
<br>
As I understand it, the first assemblies of believers were more like a Bible study or discussion group, with some leadership provided by those who were more spiritually mature (elders). They were meetings after the pattern of the Jewish synagogue. One person did not usually dominate and deliver a long uninterrupted speech as is common in what men have turned the assembly into today. In these meetings questions were accepted and discussed.<br>
<br>
My understanding is that women were not to do this interrupting and questioning. They were to "ask their own husbands at home."<br>
<br>
Blessings,<br>
Lazarus43 <p></p><i></i>
Lazarus43
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I just wanted to add what I thought when I first studied this "women be silent in church" question.<br>
<br>
My understanding is that women were not to do this interrupting and questioning. They were to "ask their own husbands at home."<br>
<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Thanks, Laz. So this, then, pertains to married women only? Not widows or unmarried? And what about the subject of prophecy mentioned above. How can "daughters" (married, widowed, or unmarried) came into the fullness prophecied by Joel if they can't speak?<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
</p><i></i>
Abiding in His Word
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby SherreeL on Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:56 pm

I would like to add these scripture to the mix. Since it seems that Paul told the women in the Corinthian church to be silent, why did he instruct the women to teach here in Titus 2:1-5? Notice the first verse, he is instructing both the men and women to speak those things which become sound doctrine. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<br>
Sherree</p><i></i>
SherreeL
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Lazarus43 on Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:14 pm

It is interesting that the Greek word translated "women" in verse 34 is "gune" which is also translated as "wife" or "wives" 92 times in the KJV New Testament. I think many times when the Greek "gune" is translated "women," it could also have been translated "wives." This would seem to be one of those cases where "wives" would be better, since in verse 35 it is said that they should "ask their own husbands at home."<br>
<br>
Again, this seems to be only about <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>wives</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> interrupting and questioning. I don't think there is any conflict with Joel.<br>
<br>
Blessings,<br>
Lazarus43 <p></p><i></i>
Lazarus43
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:39 pm

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Lazarus43</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
I agree. Thank you for rightly dividing the Word. The verse in question was never meant to be a mandate to silence women for all time.<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
</p><i></i>
Abiding in His Word
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Be still on Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:43 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It is interesting that the Greek word translated "women" in verse 34 is "gune" which is also translated as "wife" or "wives" 92 times in the KJV New Testament. I think many times when the Greek "gune" is translated "women," it could also have been translated "wives." This would seem to be one of those cases where "wives" would be better, since in verse 35 it is said that they should "ask their own husbands at home."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
That makes perfect sense Laz. <p>Karen<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;">Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. Prov.26:12 </span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;">A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself,but the heart of fools blurts out folly.Prov.12:23</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;">A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult. Prov.12:16</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> </p><i></i>
Be still
 

Re: It's a matter of Obediance

Postby sparklymomma on Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:06 pm

Cielohim...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
When....when did I ever say, that I wouldn't do, what the Lord wanted me to do...<br>
<br>
<br>
You know what I think...I think you twisted everything I said, to fit what you think you know about me...which is nothing.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Whether or not a woman remains silent is between her and the Lord... whether or not a man stays faithful to his wife is between him in the Lord.... whether or not a child is submissive to their parents is between them and the Lord...-Cie<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
<br>
I'm sorry, but this reply honestly makes me want to puke.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A woman speaking out in church is the same as a man breaking his marriage vows? Are you serious? You don't think his adultery directly effects his own wife? He is sinning against his own wife! A woman speaking in church is just as bad as a man commiting sexual immorality???<br>
<br>
Not to mention, the rebellion of children affects the parents, the children are sinning against them!<br>
<br>
<br>
Surely you can think of a better comparison??? Because that is just too skewed...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Again...<br>
<br>
What is the practical usage of this verse in day to day life?<br>
<br>
<br>
To those who agree with this verse literally...<br>
<br>
Should a woman shove a sock in her mouth at the door, just incase she has the urge to utter a sound? Maybe she should duck tape that sock in there good, in case she is tempted to SING PRAISES, or whisper a hushed "amen". Maybe she should get her husband to handcuff her hands behind her back, so she isn't tempted to rip off that tape, take out that sock, and pray for her friend...What if she sneezes!!! Will she be taken out and stoned???<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I put this ridiculous scenario out there, because the scripture says "silent". <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :dunno --><img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
<br>
So, does it mean no noise at all? Surely not...and yet, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>it could be interpreted that way</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :dunno --><img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
<br>
Does anyone get my point? I just want to know what "silent" is! <p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/CoffeeStupid.txt"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
sparklymomma
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Lazarus43 on Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:13 pm

Thanks for the kind words. The same Holy Spirit inspired the words written and helps us all to understand.<br>
<br>
Blessings,<br>
Lazarus43 <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=lazarus43>Lazarus43</A> at: 3/2/06 10:17 pm<br></i>
Lazarus43
 

Flesh is week, there must be grace... but we can't justify..

Postby cielohim on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:24 pm

Sparkle,<br>
<br>
I am sorry, I am saying in general our flesh does not want to do what the scripture says to do.... and for this issue just like many other issues there needs to be grace....<br>
<br>
If a woman sneezes, or moves and makes noise, or drops a book, ect... is she being silent??? No... but there should be grace... <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>When....when did I ever say, that I wouldn't do, what the Lord wanted me to do...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Sister, I think we all want to do what the Lord wants us to do... at least I hope so... but what I am saying is that our flesh is weak.….even to the point we cannot even discern a simple command for woman to remain silent... <br>
<br>
We cannot discern it because of our culture, our hearts and the times we live in..... so what does silent mean??? It means a woman should remain silent...(I personally believe there is grace) but That's like asking... what does "immediately after the tribulation of those days" mean...<br>
<br>
This issues was not just brought up at Corinth... we also read the same line of teaching in Timothy...<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1 Timothy 2:12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->So there is purpose and relevance for God's Church even today.... we are not the only people the word of God has reached... but we have strayed so far away from what is supposed to be the norm.... now we question the norm... <br>
<br>
I truly believe... if a woman asked the Lord to teach her... what He means by "remain silent" and that woman truly wants to submit to that command by God... it would be revealed to her exactly what the word silent means....and the purpose for the command in God's Church... and then that woman would remain silent out of Love and respect for the Lord God.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A woman speaking out in church is the same as a man breaking his marriage vows? Are you serious? You don't think his adultery directly effects his own wife? He is sinning against his own wife! A woman speaking in church is just as bad as a man committing sexual immorality???<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Sister, all those examples I gave were instances of disobedience to commands given by the Lord... and we are accountable to him... That is all I was saying… So it is not between me and the Lord whether or not a sisters chooses to follow any commanded given…. Even the one about remaining silent… <br>
<br>
But you did bring up a great point… Cause and effect….. We truly do not know the effects of women not remaining silent in the Churches.... I believe it has disrupted God's order for his Church... Now women feel it is their position to run their families.... to lead congregations.... to be ordained as Pastors and much more.... It has had a profound effect on families within the Church and the Church itself... so yes.... usually disobedience to God's commands effects more that just that person... even in the case of our Church cultures rejecting the order found in the Word for orderly worship... and that includes commands given by God for women to remain silent... <br>
<br>
An attitude of disobedience and justification of it… leads to other commands that we can just rationalize away because they don’t have relevance for our Churches today…. Like commands dealing with homosexuality and adultery and divorce, leadership and many more…. This issue is just one of many we are failing at… So we do need more mercy and grace from our Lord in this last day.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What is the practical usage of this verse in day to day life?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->How will any of us see the practical use of any scripture if we refuse to obey it? Just because we do not think we should do as it says.... does that take away the purpose for which is was given... "It is the Lord's command"... We have elevated ourselves above the authority of the Apostles and the commands given to us by God... It is the Lord's command... who are we to question it? It is a tradition that must be kept. It is the Lord’s command.<br>
<br>
We have the issue with the command... because women do not want to remain silent... (flesh and pride) and that we must look at for what it is.... most women do not want to remain silent within the congregations... it is what it is... But the command will not change...... but there is grace in all of this... we are all wretched and torn and do what we don’t want to do… and I am not condoning sin… but I am making an appeal to the Lord for grace… And yes It is a sin to willfully set our hearts in opposition to commands of the Lord.<br>
<br>
I believe our attitude should be…. “YES woman should remain silent” because that is exactly what the scripture says to do… and if we fail at it and don’t get it right… then let us ask for grace and wisdom to get it right…. But that attitude it totally different than justifying ourselves in complete opposition to what the word is telling us to clearly do within the congregations…. Again this is just one issue… there are many more we do not do.<br>
<br>
These commands were not for oppression... but for God's order.. for a woman to remain silent is a beautiful act of submitting to God as He has commanded... and if they would do that.. .they would see the application of scripture... and they would see how the whole Church along with the Lord would be blessed by a true attitude of submissiveness and quietness... But the flesh is prideful and does not want to do those things..<br>
<br>
Let me ask... if the Lord wanted sisters in the Lord to remain silent within the congregations... should they remain silent??? Yes they should... It is the Lord's command. The issue is with the command of the Lord... that needs to be addressed.<br>
<br>
I think they should... simply because that is what the scripture says to do... But that goes for all the commands... IE: Love your Brother, what does that mean??? Forgive, what does that mean??? Do not commit sexual immorality, what does that mean??? If you don't work you do not eat, what does that mean??? Immediately after the distress of those days, what does that mean...???? Women are not allowed to speak but must remain silent within the congregations, what does that mean???? Obey my commands, what does that mean???<br>
<br>
There is grace.... but please do not let us set our hearts in opposition to clear commands given by God... if we break them or are not doing them then let us acknowledge that before the Lord and ask for mercy and wisdom to do them... <br>
<br>
We cannot say to the Lord "I will not do what you command because I don't see how your commands for your Church apply to my life today??? Is that a valid excuse? Or is it that our flesh does not want to submit to the command..."<br>
<br>
Again, I believe there is grace.... but I know it would bless God for a woman to walk in to a congregation wanting to remain silent in submission to him... I know because obedience to commands of the Lord blesses the Lord.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Should a woman shove a sock in her mouth at the door, just incase she has the urge to utter a sound? Maybe she should duck tape that sock in there good, in case she is tempted to SING PRAISES, or whisper a hushed "amen". Maybe she should get her husband to handcuff her hands behind her back, so she isn't tempted to rip off that tape, take out that sock, and pray for her friend...What if she sneezes!!! Will she be taken out and stoned???<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Sister, you are missing this point... this is not about Her husband... this is not about being less than... this is about an attitude of submission to the Lord and His command that many women feel does not apply to them... and that is an issue of pride... so we cannot minimize that this issue is dealing with the attitudes in the hearts of many women and that is between them and the Lord. <br>
<br>
and like I said before... we are accountable to the Lord... so whether or not a woman goes to seminary and becomes a Pastor and Leads a flock... that is between her and the Lord... Whether or not a woman looks at those commands and justifies within her heart "They do not apply to me"... that is between her and the Lord... but none the less they are the Lord's command...<br>
<br>
The fight is not with me... nor with any other man... the fight is with the words that were commanded by God and we have to deal with where our hearts truly are in relation to where they should be when we read a command we have issues with. It won't be the first time and probably will not be the last for all of us... <br>
<br>
I will continue to say this again and again.... WE CANNOT justify ourselves in opposition to clear direct commands of the Lord...... Even if they tell women to remain silent within the congregation.... and so they should. Unless our Bible is not valid and we have the liberty to say what is good and not good within the bible for the Church today? Do we have that liberty or should we position our hearts to do what it says... and deal with the attitudes in our flesh that do not want to submit to it.<br>
<br>
Let me ask this questions.... honestly what is so horrible about having to remain silent within the congregation? What scares a woman about that? Is remaining silent some how going to hurt them? Take away their rights within the Kingdom of God? <br>
<br>
I honestly want to hear from sisters in the Lord the reasons why having to remain silent gives rise to uncertainty and fear of....... what???...<br>
<br>
We already know your positions in Christ cannot be changed.... we know man is not independent of women... we know husband and wife are both… equal… heirs to the Kingdom... we know the great significance and the great worth women have in the Kingdom... All these great and wonderful attributes God has bestowed on women... are they some how taken away because God has commanded women to remain silent within his congregations??? What is the true motive and fear for not wanting to do exactly what the scripture says do... Should a women feel less than? Or is that a lie that Satan wishes women to believe if they give their hearts in submission to this word in the command of the Lord???<br>
<br>
I have had many of these conversation.... and I know emotions can run high... so I want to tell you all that I love you, you are my family in the Lord... I am praying for all of our hearts and for God's mercy on us all.... this issue is just one of many we have forsaken within our congregations. <br>
<br>
In him,<br>
<br>
Cielohim<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cielohim@herbsdiscussionboard>cielohim</A> at: 3/3/06 1:34 am<br></i>
cielohim
 

Re: Flesh is week, there must be grace... but we can't justi

Postby blessedayers on Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:55 am

1Ti 1:8 <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>But we know that the law is good... if a man use it lawfully...</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;">as knowing this</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>that law is not made for a righteous man</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>but for the lawless and unruly</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.... for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. <br>
<br>
<br>
So in your eyes a woman who breaks the rule of silence....is lawless and unruly......thus...unrighteous.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am sorry, I am saying in general our flesh does not want to do what the scripture says to do.... and for this issue just like many other issues there needs to be grace....<br>
<br>
If a woman sneezes, or moves and makes noise, or drops a book, ect... is she being silent??? No... but there should be grace...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br>
<br>
Cel....do you realize that you are doing the same thing you accuse us of?<br>
<br>
You are using 2 verses about silence....directed at interestingly enough...2 unruly congregations....and applying them so that.....you make void the fact that God said women would have a voice....and a prophetic one at that.<br>
<br>
When the rest of the scriptures about women...contradict your spin on them...and are in line with what God did say.<br>
<br>
In fact you go to the extreme that...if a woman so much as sneezes during services....she has broken the law.<br>
<br>
And that even if God has poured out the spirit of prophecy....she is unable to give utterance....<br>
<br>
<br>
Act 18:25 <br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord;</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and being fervent in spirit, he spake and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, knowing only the baptism of John: and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>But when Priscilla and Aquila</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> heard him, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>they</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> took him unto <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>them</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, and expounded unto him the way of God more accurately. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Rom 16:3 <br>
Greet Priscilla and Aquila <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>my helpers</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> in Christ Jesus:<br>
Rom 16:4 <br>
Who have for my life laid down <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>their own necks</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. <br>
Rom 16:5 <br>
Likewise greet <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>the church that is in their house</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.<br>
<br>
<br>
Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Caesarea</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and entering into the house of <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Philip the evangelist</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, who was one of the seven, we abode with him. <br>
<br>
<br>
Act 21:9 <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>
<br>
Interestingly....we are commanded to discern what is said in order to determine who is a prophet or not.<br>
<br>
2Pe 1:19 <br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>And we have the word of prophecy made more sure;</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: <br>
2Pe 1:20 <br>
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. <br>
2Pe 1:21 <br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br>
<br>
So...it was determined by an elder of the church that there were 4 woman who prophesied....spirit witnesses to spirit.<br>
<br>
Where I wonder did these women prophecy at? <br>
<br>
Whom did they prophecy to? <br>
<br>
I would think that....according to your terms....if Paul was near enough to hear them...and to discern that they indeed where prophets.....that means that he was close enough that...according to your interpretation....they should have not been saying anything at all....since there was a better alternative....in the person of Paul alone....not to mention their own father.<br>
<br>
<br>
Or...would you have us to believe that they....struck out on their own so to speak....going it alone....in that day and age...without a man over them?<br>
<br>
Cause...as you yourself have made clear....if there is a man in the picture...they are to be silent.<br>
<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:navy;">For I will give you a mouth and wisdom...<br>
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;">Jody ***Psalms 119***</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--> </p><i></i>
blessedayers
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:02 am

Cielohim, you are knowlegeable enough in scripture to know that in this chapter of Corinthians the apostle is speaking concerning the use of spiritual gifts, and prefers prophesying, or preaching, to every other gift. He speaks to the manner of using them because there was much confusion and disorder in this church.<br>
<br>
In the same chapter, Paul says this:<br>
<br>
1Co 14:26 What is it then, my brothers? when you come together everyone has a holy song, or a revelation, or a tongue, or is giving the sense of it. Let everything be done for the common good. <br>
<br>
Shall we then make a law that every service must follow Pauls order for a service? Every service when we come together must contain a holy song, or a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation? Or would that be misunderstanding Paul's intent within the context of this chapter?<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I honestly want to hear from sisters in the Lord the reasons why having to remain silent gives rise to uncertainty and fear of....... what???...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Not fear, Cielohim, but a desire to understand the seeming contradiction presented in the topic.<br>
<br>
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:<br>
Joe 2:29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.<br>
<br>
Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:<br>
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:<br>
Act 2:18 Yea and on My servants and on My handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy.<br>
<br>
Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him.<br>
Act 21:9 Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied.<br>
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there some days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.<br>
<br>
1Co 14:29 And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern.<br>
1Co 14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence.<br>
1Co 14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted;<br>
1Co 14:32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets;<br>
1Co 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,<br>
1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.<br>
1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.<br>
<br>
If you have the answer to this question, please share it with us.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :answerquestion --><img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_125.gif ALT=":answerquestion"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
</p><i></i>
Abiding in His Word
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby tsth on Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:27 am

<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :duel --><img src=http://fool.exler.ru/sm/duel.gif ALT=":duel"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I prefer the silence, I think.<br>
<br>
In His Love,<br>
Suzanne <p></p><i></i>
tsth
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:44 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I prefer the silence, I think.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
Your choice .....as long as you know it is a choice and not a command. However, if the Lord gives you a word of prophecy to speak during a service, hopefully you would set aside your choice and speak.<br>
<br>
If men were being disruptive in the services at Corinth, the same caution would be applied by Paul to them. And if anyone, men or women, would be disruptive in a church gathering today, I expect the pastor would say the same thing. No disruptive services:everything in order.<br>
<br>
Just a little humor here....but with truth also: God didn't even want an ox to be muzzled for pete's sake (let alone a woman!) And Paul states that and as is his practice, refers to the law from the OT.<br>
<br>
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? <br>
<br>
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? (Deu_25:4)<br>
<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
</p><i></i>
Abiding in His Word
 

Re: Flesh is week, there must be grace... but we can't justi

Postby blessedayers on Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:48 am

According to your interpretation Cel.....all the women on this board are lawless and unruly...thus unrighteous....because we arent silent in the precence of the men here.<br>
<br>
But if we had been silent...this board would have ceased to exist a long time ago.<br>
<br>
Cause even though this isnt a physical church....it is a gathered body of believers....remember....where two or three are gather in His name...there He is.<br>
<br>
Unless of course....we arent His....<br>
<br>
There is an interesting aside in all this....we cant get men to do what we do here....and of the ones we did get to come on alongside us....the only one who has continued to brave the flames....is Jad....and he also provides for his family....so its not like he doesnt have a job.<br>
<br>
Not that we havent tried to bring men in....long ago realizing that it would be for the best....many many times we have tried....to get men to take on this responsibilty.....but for whatever reason...they cant or wont handle it.<br>
<br>
Thus....in order that this board exist for the edification and exhortation of believers.....we as women have had to keep it going....on much prayers and tears. <br>
<br>
Day in a day out we...unfortunatly? born as women.... fight back the darkness....because the word of God burns with in our hearts and drives us to do so....refuting and rebuking...even....and often....especially men....with all longsuffering and doctrine amongst the body of believers gathered here.<br>
<br>
And this...thru and with the support of our husbands....of which....without...we wouldnt do.<br>
I know that for myself....Im looked down upon for this....my husband often stepping in and reubuking the nay sayers...for me and what I do here.<br>
<br>
I also know that if the Lord was not with me in this....I couldnt do a thing....it is to Him that I turn when I go to battle cause without Him I wouldnt know how to address the things that come up here.<br>
<br>
So...are we lawless and unruly....thus commiting unrighteous acts day in and day out...flaunting the scriptures....the laws of God?<br>
<br>
Cause we are teaching and preaching all the day long....when truly...we would love nothing better than to be able to just sit back and soak up right teaching silently.....<br>
<br>
1Co 14:36 What? <br>
<br>
Came the word of God out from you? <br>
<br>
Or came it unto you only? <br>
<br>
<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:navy;">For I will give you a mouth and wisdom...<br>
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;">Jody ***Psalms 119***</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--> </p><i></i>
blessedayers
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Bluntasaspoon on Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:34 am

Just an observation: <br>
<br>
It is interesting how many (if not almost all) of the mods and admins here are WOMEN. <br>
<br>
And that this board has been almost compared to a gathering discussing and learning about Christianity, in otherwords a Church or pretty close to it.<br>
<br>
I doubt rather strongly that everything the Mods/Admins write and reply and "speak" about here is checked and double checked and approved solely by 1. Herb or 2. their husbands or 3. their fathers or lastly 4. their brothers.<br>
<br>
So, where does that leave us? <p></p><i></i>
Bluntasaspoon
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby mrshalfcent on Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:29 am

good post jody.<br>
I would like to bring in a different angle here if I may?<br>
<br>
It seems to me that this is about what law we are to keep.<br>
Is this a cultural issue or in fact a law we are to keep? If it is law that a woman be silent then we must also find correlating situations.<br>
Consider the words of Jesus who taught us first and of whom Paul did not contradict.<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
Matthew 12<br>
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?<br>
</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
The issue here is about keeping the law. Is this only about a man made law the religious leaders were challenging Jesus on? Or was this a absolute Law of God that was being discussed? <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
from Matthew 12 continued:<br>
9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—that they might accuse Him.<br>
11 Then He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.<br>
</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Is it more lawful for a healing to take place or a person to be delivered from a demon than for a woman to speak a word of prophecy? <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
Matthew 19<br>
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”<br>
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”<br>
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”<br>
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”<br>
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marr</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Do you see Jesus reasoning? Because of the hardness and unwillingness of those who called themselves the chosen of God to understand and practice the spirit of the law... they were given a law by moses to abide by. Did that make it right? And what was Paul saying when he said 'a woman shall be silent' and only speak at home? <br>
Does this place women in a different catagory or is the body of Christ divided along the lines of male and female and what one can and cannot do based on thier sex?<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
Mathew 22<br>
28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”<br>
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
I realize this is talking about marriage and such..but the principle is evident. These religious chosen separated women from men. Ultimately in heaven there will be no distinction between male or female. If we believe and pray 'Father, your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven', are we not also asking for divine perspective?<br>
If what we bind here on earth is bound in heaven... are we then binding women from the heavenly things?<br>
It seems to me that understanding the spirit of what Paul is saying is being missed. <br>
If the same Spirit who raised Christ from the dead dwells in all believers, male and female, then why are we looking back to the law as if this isn't true? The same Spirit instructs 'all' believers in the matters of the faith. <br>
Can a woman only operate in the spirit at home under the watchful eye of her husband?<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
Matthew 23<br>
12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.<br>
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Paul addresses serious cultural issues in the Corinthian church. Women did indeed have alot of pull and say. Much like our feminists today methinks. An anything goes. Corinth was a hub for female diety worship.<br>
Paul wasn't teaching the law. He was teaching correct unity and order both in the family and church. The religious Jews even today separate the women from the men. Just look at the wailing wall today. There is a men's side and a woman's side. And neither the two shall combine. <br>
It seems to me that there is this insistence to continue a separation when in reality we are to be one and work as one even as Christ and us are to be one.<br>
And if we erect a law that denies the free flowing of the Spirit, ie. a man won't accept a word of prophecy by a woman when all recognize she speaks with a holy unction, then the sin of the pharisees is apparent and must be repented of.<br>
It is because of this abuse that weak willed women have in the past and even now are being taken advantaged of. And why were/are woman weak willed? How do they get that way? Is it possible they get that way because they are not allowed to operate in the matters of the faith? How would a woman know if she was indeed understanding matters in the faith when her only perspective is what her husband allows to her? And if a woman is 'silent' in the church, is the church benefited or robbed? Why is it a man is comfortable trusting his wife to raise the children and teach them matters of the faith but is unwilling to allow that same woman to operate in the church body? Do you see the contradiction? You end up perpetuating this male/female separation. Not teaching unity at all. But a dominating lordship. Jesus is our Lord and Savior and Head..but does he dominate us and tell us to keep silent? To keep to ourselves and only speak in private with him? Men? Does he? You are part of the bride too right? <br>
But if the Body of Christ would properly mature in all ways this would not be a problem. We all are the saints. we all are temples of God whom the Spirit of God dwells. All of us, whether male or female, rich or poor.<br>
<br>
Now having said that, there are times when a woman has for example come to this board and starts prophesying this or that, by that I mean also teaching this or that. And we have not witnessed to the spirit she comes with. So we all show by the scriptures what is incorrect.<br>
We also have men who have come here doing the same thing. Again, we search the scriptures, all of us, male and female and come to a consensus.<br>
If we can do that successfully here on a discussion board, why is it not happening in the church fellowship itself?<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
Mark 4<br>
21 Also He said to them, “Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed? Is it not to be set on a lampstand? 22 For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Who is a lamp? We are lamps. All of us. But if one lamp burns more brightly than the others then the room is too bright and hot. That is pride. But when all of us allow ourselves to be trimmed by the hand of the Lord our lights shine properly and in direct proportion of the oil of the Spirit which we are filled with. Understand? Simply put, there is order.<br>
Remember, the same Spirit who raised Christ from the dead dwells in all of us, male and female.<br>
If there is any law in this it is this. That we are One Body, One Faith founded on Christ. And to obey his commands is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds and souls and love our neighbor as ourself.<br>
If we truly do this, this woman/man thing would not even be an issue. <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
1 John 2<br>
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.<br>
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Does the Spirit of Truth abide in all of us?<br>
Is there a distinction between male and female?<br>
To be zealous for the Lord is excellent. But when a law is created that hinders and hurts the body elect, then that law is a cancer and is death to the saints. <br>
And eventually will suppress the Spirit and even grieve the Spirit so he will leave. And then what?<br>
It takes wisdom to live in grace. <br>
This 'a woman shall be silent' is expedient for whom?<br>
I believe the evidence is clear. Paul wrote to unruly immature saints who needed serious instruction about order and submission to Christ first then the rest will fall in place.<br>
Just as here on this board. There is order. And both men and women share in the riches of the Word and all are benefited by it.<br>
This board exists as a direct result of Herb's calling.<br>
For me, I do not make a major decision unless I consult with Herb. And then it is discussed with the mods and then we bring it to the board. And always with much prayer.<br>
This is proper order.<br>
<br>
A woman who truly loves the Lord with all she has, has the heart of God and will operate in proper order. And this won't be an issue for her.<br>
A man who loves the Lord with all he has also will love his wife as Christ loves the church. And this won't be an issue either. <br>
And as the husband and wife who understands their place under the headship of Christ will be beneficial to the church at large. <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br>
proverbs 31<br>
10 Who<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> can find a virtuous[c] wife?<br>
For her worth is far above rubies.<br>
11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;<br>
So he will have no lack of gain.<br>
12 She does him good and not evil<br>
All the days of her life. <br>
23 Her husband is known in the gates,<br>
When he sits among the elders of the land.<br>
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,<br>
And supplies sashes for the merchants.<br>
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;<br>
She shall rejoice in time to come.<br>
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,<br>
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.<br>
27 She watches over the ways of her household,<br>
And does not eat the bread of idleness.<br>
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;<br>
Her husband also, and he praises her:<br>
29 “ Many daughters have done well,<br>
But you excel them all.”<br>
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing,<br>
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.<br>
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,<br>
And let her own works praise her in the gat</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
selah<br>
laura <p> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/bbbar011.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
[The Devil] reminds us that when Christ, as a lamb brought to the slaughter, opened not His mouth–and suggests that we do likewise. Then if we notice his foot in the door and rise to oppose him, he appeals to our desire to be Christ-like. “Love everybody and all will be well,” he urges. The shepherd, taken in by this sweet talk, is afraid to use his club, and the wolf gets the sheep! (A. W. Tozer: <br>
Renewed Day by Day, August 25)<br>
<br>
"Odd, the way the less the Bible is read the more it is translated." - C. S. Lewis<br>
<br>
The Bible is like a lion; it does not need to be defended; just let it loose and it will defend itself. <br>
-- Martin Luther<br>
<br>
"First, then, before you can speak peace to your hearts, you must be made to see, made to feel, made to weep over, made to bewail, your actual transgressions against the Law of God." - George Whitefield<br>
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/Jesus_fish_2.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>
mrshalfcent
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby JADLAZ99 on Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:19 am

Laura –<br>
        Really good post!<br>
<br>
Much to think about and consider.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Bluntasaspoon <br>
<br>
–        Let me be blunt … by what you have said in your last post shows that you really don’t understand how things work around this board.<br>
–        <br>
Um … you are correct not everything that is posted here by the Mod’s and Admin’ is checked by Herb, the husbands and or fathers. However, I will take a stand here for the Ladies <br>
<br>
It has previously been discussed if this were a church; and the outcome of that discussion was that this is not a ‘church’ but only a discussion board. <br>
<br>
Those in the position of authority here are volunteers; each person has shown or proven themselves to be qualified by the standards established by this board. The fact that the majority of these are women can be contributed to a number of reasons. <br>
<br>
1.        the majority of men that would be qualified to do this job have committed their time elsewhere, even still there are many men here who post, some regularly, that would like to help and do so in their own way, but again do not have the time to oversee the board.<br>
2.        the majority of the other men on the board have not yet shown themselves to meet the required qualifications, temperament, and or maturity level to handle the responsibility. <br>
3.        the remainder of the men here that may be qualified have not made known any desire to do so.<br>
4.        the women that are in the position of mod’ or adm’ because of each of their unique situations has found an opportunity to serve. <br>
<br>
Is it the men’s fault for not stepping up to the task? No. The men are doing what they need to be doing. These ladies are filling an important part in service to the Lord by their willing to serve. Each part of the body has it purpose and useful function. These ladies do not ‘lord’ over you, they simply try to keep everyone following the rules and sometimes stimulate your mind with scripture. <br>
<br>
In some strange way some could argue that they are fulfilling the part of a New Testament (prophecy) prophetess when they utter words that “build up, edify, exhort, console, directing all glory to God.” And that is also part of the job – to help keep everyone focused on God.<br>
<br>
<p>With my mind on hope, my heart, my soul on Faith.<br>
<br>
Running on Faith ...<br>
<br>
JAD<br>
<br>
******************<br>
"If Darwin's theory of evolution was correct, cats would be able to operate a can opener by now."<br>
******************<br>
Lord help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.<br>
******************<br>
A wise man once said, “Most I fear God. Next to Him, I fear him that fears Him not.” If someone has no fear of God, he will lie to you, steal from you, and even kill you … if he thinks he can get away with it.”</p><i></i>
JADLAZ99
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Bluntasaspoon on Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:49 am

Whoa JAD, <br>
<br>
I WASNT complaining about women MODs/ADMINs I was making an OBSERVATION....<br>
<br>
However, much to my embarrassment, I did not fully read Jodi's superb post immediately prior to mine....<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :bag --><img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_18_5.gif ALT=":bag"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
I'm not criticizing the fact there are women mods - so chill out.<br>
<br>
IMHO, women are the natural teachers of society, considering we are mothers and the ones who tend to be there 24/7 for our children TEACHING them what they need to know. Why is it that we cannot extend that position into religion? Why is it that we should be overlooked for our own worthwhile contributions? But in all things, balance must be achieved, and I would like to see one or two more male mods. But again, that is just an opinion and not a criticism.<br>
<br>
Religion is MAN MADE as has been pointed out time and time again. But this thread is about Paul's quote directed to women in the Corinthian church to keep it buttoned whilst in church. Of course, we have spent the last 2 millenium thinking he meant all women....does he? And that's what we're debating about...NOT the fact that I made an observation.<br>
<br>
And yes, I have a pretty keen grasp on how things run around here, it is good to see that each of you support one another especially if there is any opposition to an opinion or if there appears to be a different take on a situation...or a misinterpretation of a post. But thankyou for taking the time out to re-aquaint myself with how things are done, JAD, however, I don't think, I am the one here in need of rebuking.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Bluntasaspoon
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby JADLAZ99 on Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:59 am

Okay … Bluntasaspoon, I wasn’t rebuking you and I am sorry if it came across that way. You’re previous post maybe unintentionally left things wide open for someone to come along and possibly start some mod’ and adm’ bashing based on sexual gender. And because of that I needed to reply. <br>
<br>
Yeah, maybe you took the blunt of the post, but I think you’re capable of rolling with it, as it provided an opportunity to explain to all ‘why’ there appears to be so many woman as mod’s and amin’. <br>
<br>
Also , before your time here there was a discussion on the board as to whether the board was indeed a church. <br>
<br>
However, your observations are well noted and I am sure you expressed what some others might have been privately thinking. <br>
<br>
One thing with message boards is that it can at times be so very hard to read the expression behind what someone writes often times leaving it open to the reader’s interpitation. Often that happens when someone is rushed to respond or forgets part of what they wanted to write. <br>
<br>
So let’s take this as an example to learn from and move on. Okay?<br>
<p>With my mind on hope, my heart, my soul on Faith.<br>
<br>
Running on Faith ...<br>
<br>
JAD<br>
<br>
******************<br>
"If Darwin's theory of evolution was correct, cats would be able to operate a can opener by now."<br>
******************<br>
Lord help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.<br>
******************<br>
A wise man once said, “Most I fear God. Next to Him, I fear him that fears Him not.” If someone has no fear of God, he will lie to you, steal from you, and even kill you … if he thinks he can get away with it.”</p><i></i>
JADLAZ99
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby SherreeL on Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:10 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One thing with message boards is that it can at times be so very hard to read the expression behind what someone writes often times leaving it open to the reader’s interpitation. Often that happens when someone is rushed to respond or forgets part of what they wanted to write.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
That is so true JAD! So Cary deleted his previous post. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<br>
Sherree</p><i></i>
SherreeL
 

The Lord's command not Paul's... but the Lord's command

Postby cielohim on Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:30 pm

This issue is one of pride… and there is no contradiction.. I agree wholeheartedly with what the scripture says in Joel… it was given by the same Spirit that gave the commands for women in His Church… and is the spirit of the prophet subject to the prophets control???? That is can a prophet choose to remain silent? Yes they can... <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->..<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->When are we going to adequately address these words… “This is the Lord’s command”… When are we going to address the fact that we are putting ourselves above an apostel of God who has told us point blank… This is the Lord’s command… We are filled with so much pride and do not want to do what the word says do because a lot of women fell that they are being limited… but in actuality if they would do what he word says to do… then they would be being obedient to the command given not by Paul but by who??? By Christ…. “This is the Lord’s command”… <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>So I ask all of us here… is what we read Paul’s command or the Lord’s command…</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> It is easier to rationalize our disobedience when we say… “Paul did not know what he was talking about”… But the fact remains that it was not Paul’s command… it was the Lord’s command… <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your choice .....as long as you know it is a choice and not a command. However, if the Lord gives you a word of prophecy to speak during a service, hopefully you would set aside your choice and speak…<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> This is what I am talking about…. We know the word says “This is the Lord’s command” but yet you say…. This is not a Lord’s command… and that position of our hearts is why I say again and again…. It is better for us to get on our knees and ask for mercy and acknowledge that we do not want to do as it says to do… because we are filled with so much pride and the knowledge of our culture to even realize that we are standing in opposition to a clear direct command of God… and we are willing to justify ourselves in direct disobedience to a command given by God… and that is what you are saying right now… These are your words as compared to what is actually written in the word… <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>“as long as you know it is a choice and not a command” vs. “This is the Lord’s command”…..</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> <br>
<br>
Now have we received some kind of greater knowledge for God’s Church than he gave to his Apostles? If not then what are we saying… We should be saying “Women remain silent within the congregations of the satins…” Why? Because that is what the scripture tells us to do… and contraray to what you have written… “This is the Lord’s command”..<br>
<br>
Because we all read “This is the Lord’s command”…. unless we are going to call God’s Apostle a Liar…<br>
<br>
You where partially right about having a choice… men and women both… have a choice.. Men and women both can prophesy as the Holy Spirit has told us in Joel… but what does the word say?…. <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->........37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em> </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->So if the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophets control… then one can remain silent…. can they not...And for God’s order within his own congregation what do you read about women???? They should remain silent… But you have told your sister: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Your choice .....as long as you know it is a choice and not a command. However, if the Lord gives you a word of prophecy to speak during a service, hopefully you would set aside your choice and speak</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->…<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->But we just read the spirit of the prophet are subject to the prophets control... and then we read.. woman should not speak but remain silent... and then and Apostle of God says.... "THis is the Lords command".... <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>So we do have choices... one of obediance in submission or disobediance in pride....</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> there would be no difference of 20 prophets were speaking at once.... it is out of Order.... and for women... they should remain silent as the word tells us...<br>
<br>
But it is scary to think that we are bold enough to tell our sisters... NO do not do what the Apostle of God has commanded in these words.. "This is the Lord's command."<br>
<br>
The truth is we are waring with God’s Spirit and his own command and trying to put in all on Paul… Paul was just a messager… and he has made it so clear and plain.. “This is the Lord’s command”… But we do not have the hearts to do it because of our culture and pride within us…<br>
<br>
I love all of my sisters in the Lord… it is no threat to me for a women to do what she wants to do… I have friends who are women Pastors who lead congregations.... that is wrong and out of order... But they are accountable to the Lord... It is not my Church... I did not make the rules nor commands for it... God did..and we read them a clear as can be... but we do not want to do some of them....(we all are guilty in many areas)... So if we are supposed to be a body who follows the Lead of our God.. Then let us all acknowledge that these commands were given by Christ himself… or else we would not read. This is the Lord’s command… and then let us address the deception that is in our own hearts that gives us the boldness to question a clear direct command from the Lord "This is the Lords command".<br>
<br>
About Joel I wrote in a previous post: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There are no contradictions.... yes woman can prophesy... because it is written they would.... yes women can testify about the Lord and through the Gospel a soul may be saved, yes women can do many great things for the Lord... But in the context of the congregation of the saints... it is the Lord's command that they are to remain silent..<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> And I also wrote: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We already know your positions in Christ cannot be changed.... we know man is not independent of women... we know husband and wife are both… equal… heirs to the Kingdom... we know the great significance and the great worth women have in the Kingdom... All these great and wonderful attributes God has bestowed on women... are they some how taken away because God has commanded women to remain silent within his congregations???<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->If women remain silent in the Church is the Lord somehow not going to be able to have a productive Church? He is the one who gave the command… we are the ones who are rejecting the commands and stand in opposition to it because we do not wish to do them…… It is not Paul’s command… it is the Lord’s command.<br>
<br>
A woman's selfworth within God's church should not be measured on whether or not she should prophesy within the congregation of the saints.... We have been seduced by the ideals of our culture even to the point where we stand in direct opposition to God's command for an oderly Church.<br>
<br>
A woman's selfworth should be found not in speaking out in the congregations.... but in obediance to commands given by God in all areas of her life.... and that goes for men as well..<br>
<br>
So the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets control... and if a woman choose to prohpesy within the congregation.. that is between her and the Lord.... but it will not be without the knowledge of how the Lord feels about it.... or else we would not have read these words... "This is the Lord's command... <br>
<br>
Family, I love you all... sisters... I love you all... we are not Apostles... we do not have the liberty to rewrite clear commands for order in God's Church... What if I said... Husbands.. you do not have to love your wives as Christ loves the Church.... culture has changed and that command for families in God's Church is no longer valid...<br>
<br>
I could justify my actions within my own heart... but they would be wrong because they would be in direct opposition to what God has commanded for his Church... "It is the Lord's command"<br>
<br>
So it is with the Lord and his command that we are having issues with. That is why I keep on saying... it would be better to acknowledge that we have a problem doing as it says to because our hearts are prideful.... than to direct our sisters to disobey clear commands given by God himself... "This is the Lord's command"... so where is our Fear of the Lord? As in many other areas in my life as well our Fear has been overshadowed by our culture and now we have become very very bold in our pride... and what is even more dangerous is that we believe we are honestly justified in our stance in direct opposition to what the scripture actually commands.<br>
<br>
In him,<br>
<br>
Cielohim <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cielohim@herbsdiscussionboard>cielohim</A> at: 3/3/06 4:46 pm<br></i>
cielohim
 

Re: The Lord's command not Paul's... but the Lord's command

Postby blessedayers on Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:41 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak..<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
ok Cel...define church.....define what constitues an assembly of believers....is it as small as...2 or 3 gathered in His name.<br>
<br>
or is there more to it than that?<br>
<br>
We need specifics....that way we will know when not to speak unless spoken to.<br>
<br>
<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--> <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:navy;">For I will give you a mouth and wisdom...<br>
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:olive;">Jody ***Psalms 119***</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--> </p><i></i>
blessedayers
 

Re: And your women shall be silent in church....

Postby Bob the Quiet on Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:18 pm

The "church" is simply composed of the 'called out ones' (look up what the word translated as 'church' means). The 'called out ones' of course are people who have turned to Christ. Of course, we all already know that it is us Christians ourselves who comprise the Church. Jesus told us that where two or more of us are gathered in His name, that He is there. What more do we need to know than that concerning this topic? It has already been stated that we do not need some special building that we call a 'church' it just has to be Christians gathering together in Jesus name. That is all. It doesn't matter how many so long as there's more than one. <p>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~<br>
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon</p><i></i>
Bob the Quiet
 

Re: The Lord's command not Paul's... but the Lord's command

Postby Barbarbar on Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:50 am

<br>
<br>
Re: The Lord's command not Paul's....but the Lord's command...<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Laura.......You did real well.......I know what you are saying and I agree........<br>
<br>
I see something else I would like to point too.......<br>
<br>
First......I'll point to......again what Paul said in <br>
<br>
I Tim 2:12.........But I suffer not a woman to teach......nor to usurp authority over the man.....but to be in silence.....<br>
<br>
Paul says......He does not allow a woman to teach....Notice....But I suffer not a woman to teach.....<br>
<br>
I Corth.4:17.......For this cause have I sent unto you....Timotheus.....who is my beloved son....and faithful in the Lord....<br>
who shall bring you.....into remembrance of <br>
<br>
MY WAYS WHICH BE IN CHRIST.....AS I TEACH.....<br>
every where in every church........<br>
<br>
I Corth. 7:17......But as God hath distributed to every man.....as the Lord hath called every one.....so let him walk.....AND.....so ordain <br>
I in all churches..<br>
.....(so ordain I in all the churches...<br>
<br>
<br>
I Corth.11:2.......Now I praise you....brethren that YE REMEMBER ME IN ALL THINGS.....AND KEEP THE ORDINANCES.. (or traditions)...as I delivered<br>
them to you......<br>
<br>
II Thess. 2:15.....Therefore brethren....<br>
stand fast....and hold THE TRADITIONS......<br>
which ye have been taught....<br>
whether by word...or epistle......<br>
<br>
Now Notice what Peter says about some of Paul's writtings.<br>
<br>
II Peter 3:15b....even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him....... hath written unto you......<br>
<br>
....the wisdom given unto him...<br>
<br>
16.....As also......in all his epistles.....speaking in them of these things....in which are some things....hard to be understood......which they..... that are unlearned.<br>
.....and unstable wrest.....as they do also the other scriptures.....unto their own destruction.......<br>
<br>
This was a custom...or tradition......of those days and time......even today......we can look in the moslem countries and see how the women are held in bondage.....and so when the freedom of the gospel came......it was hard for the carnal man to see.......the Liberty we have in Christ......<br>
<br>
NOT to do our own will....but to be submissive to the Holy Spirit.......<br>
<br>
The Holy Spirit is Holy.......and it brings freedom.....<br>
But not freedom to sin...or do our own will.....but to follow Him and be obedient to Him......Jesus said......<br>
If the Son shall make you free......<br>
you shall be free indeed.....<br>
<br>
Now there is divine order......and we as believers are to walk in this order......both Man and Woman......we are to walk in the Spirit of Christ.........<br>
<br>
Man can also speak out of order in the church.....just like woman can......so we have to keep ourselves so we do not cause confusion in the assemblies.......<br>
but be led by the Holy Spirit........<br>
<br>
As a woman.....we are to be in subjection to our husbands....and also to the Holy Spirit.....<br>
The Holy Spirit will not cause you to do that which is wrong.....or out of order....<br>
We can walk by the flesh......or we can walk by the Spirit.....<br>
If we are lead by the Flesh.....<br>
Then it is wrong......and it is out of order<br>
......divine order....<br>
<br>
<br>
If we could only understand......<br>
when we are born again....<br>
we are born of God.....Born of His Holy Spirit.....<br>
which dwells in us.......restored<br>
<br>
The spirit of life of God now dwells in the believer....<br>
both male and female.......<br>
There is Only One Spirit......<br>
in both male and female.......<br>
<br>
I Corth. 6:19.....What? know ye not that your <br>
body is the temple of the Holy Ghost.....<br>
which is in you....which ye have of God....<br>
.and ye are not your own?<br>
<br>
20.....For ye are bought with a price......<br>
therefore Glorify God in your body.......<br>
and in your spirit which are God's....<br>
<br>
If a woman speaks in prophecy........<br>
she is to be judged just like if a man spoke........<br>
The Spirit can speak throught woman and man........<br>
.Many times woman are more sensitive <br>
to the spirit then man.........<br>
<br>
I believe because Paul was single......<br>
and had not a wife....he was hard on woman......<br>
but that is just my opinion.....<br>
and that is why he said<br>
.....I allow not a woman to speak....<br>
also it was the custom of that day........<br>
<br>
<br>
bb<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Barbarbar
 

Let's address the real issues within our own Hearts

Postby cielohim on Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:19 am

Sisters,<br>
<br>
I love you all... <br>
<br>
Brother, I love you all as well.<br>
<br>
I want to ask some simple questions? And I would like very Honest answers just to test where our hearts are.<br>
<br>
Has anyone here been taken up to heaven and been given specific commands from the Lord Jesus himself for the foundation of Christ's Church?<br>
<br>
Has anyone here raised the dead with the power of Christ by a touch???<br>
<br>
Has anyone here been given the revelation that a specific person or people lied to the Holy Spirit because of words that you spoke and so that person that lied dropped dead before your feet in the Power of the Holy Spirit of God?<br>
<br>
Do you and I have any right to justify ourselves in opposition to clear commands of God...????<br>
<br>
Now before emotions start rising up... I want us to honestly reason with ourselves according to how we should view scripture... (Take the emotion out of it and put apples to apples… That is our words and attitude of our hearts next to the scripture itself)<br>
because right now.... if we can pick and choose which scriptures are relevant to our Church today and which scriptures we can turn a blind eye to... then our Bible has absolutely NO validity AT ALL. <br>
<br>
Case and point: There are Churches that ordain openly Homosexual Pastors Men and Women Both<br>
<br>
There are Churches where Divorce is a solution to failing Marriage, even without marital unfaithfulness and I could go on...<br>
<br>
Like I said, this issue is just one in a many we are failing at... But what I do not think we understand or realize is the extent we are just refusing to address the blatant pride of our hearts... and the deception of our cultural lifestyles that have lead us to believe that our cultural norms should be placed above clear commands by God for his Church that He himself established by His own Blood, for the redemption of our souls... and <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>we have placed our Cultures above scripture itself… Now we reason from the view point of our culture instead of the view point of our scripture and so we are self justified.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--><br>
<br>
Now if it is our souls who have been redeemed by a Man who happens to be God himself... and that Man is the Lord... and the Lord has given the command... then WHO ARE WE to openly justify our culture and position of our hearts in defiance to HIS COMMAND. Again...<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I do not see this being addressed by anybody. We all are trying to put this off on Paul... like Paul made some mistake...</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> NO.. Paul heard a command probably when he was in heaven.... (have you ever gone to heaven to receive commands for God's Church).... and passed it along... Kinda like Moses in a way.... speaking with God and then giving commands straight from the Lord...<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>So we read "This is the Lord's" command...</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> and even in the face of that... we are bold enough to write things such as <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your choice .....as <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>long as you know it is a choice and not a command.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> However, if the Lord gives you a word of prophecy to speak during a service, hopefully you would set aside your choice and speak…<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->That statement is in direct conflict to what the word says... and if we are going to proceed in such a manner handling scripture in such a fashion... ..<br>
<br>
Then "immediately after the tribulation of those days" doesn't really mean "immediately after the tribulation of those days".... Forgive your brother... truly doesn't mean forgive your brother... because it is our choice and not a command... Husbands... you have a choice to love your wives as Christ loved the Church... based upon how you feel about that command... Wives you really do not have to be submissive to your husbands because Paul truly did not know what our culture was going to be like today.... <br>
<br>
So we have effectively justified ourselves in opposition to God's word and our scripture or the ones that we can pick and choose is not valid for our Church cultures today... <br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>We do not address the pride and deception within our own hearts</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> in that we do not have congregations doing what is prescribe by God... in that our Church culture looks nothing like what has been written but we look like the culture that surrounds us... <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>So we would rather believe our Cultural now is more relevant than the commands given to us by God...</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> and that goes for all areas... not just this one.<br>
<br>
So now we find ourselves saying things like:<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I believe because Paul was single......<br>
and had not a wife....he was hard on woman......<br>
but that is just my opinion.....<br>
and that is why he said<br>
.....I allow not a woman to speak....<br>
also it was the custom of that day........<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->And that is how we justify ourselves.... But if we compare our hearts to what the scripture actually says... <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>then let the word of God be right and let us acknowledge that our hearts are deceived and our flesh does not want to do as it says so... </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> So compare the above quote to the scripture... And if we can decide to make up whatever we choose to believe and do it... then so be it... but if we stand on scripture then let the scripture stand as the TRUTH of God.. <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em></em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>No it was not Paul... It is the Lord's command... and our opinions, commentary, and the like should not say anything to the contrary unless we have those liberties in our use of scripture today... </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> IE: Apply the verses I agree with... disregard those I don't..... infact my culture today is more relevant to the commands given by Christ for his Church… so we have choices in whether or not they should be followed.<br>
<br>
Why don't we start questioning the validity of Husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the Church... that is a direct command to Men... unless women can be husbands...(and today you never know, anything goes) So let's questions that... How is that scripture valid to my culture today... How can scripture possibly give me that command...and I apply it 2000 years later... You know..... I am not sure... maybe I can tell my brothers who are Husbands... (That's a choice they have, they really do not have to love their wives).. that is not a command that needs to be followed parse… Can I do that? <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Is that practice acceptable for some individuals and not others.... does that practice only apply to some scripture such as those that pertain to women and not others..... that pertain to commands for men??? </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Or do I get to pick and choose which scriptures I can do that with only if I can justify myself by my own cultural norms…and fleshly desires.<br>
<br>
But do we not realize just as people grumbled against Moses.... God choose Moses... He spoke directly to Moses… so Who are WE... WHO ARE WE.... we are that prideful and deceived…... The Apostle were given extraordinary powers to prove who validated them… And when one of them says “This is the Lord’s command” I do not think we should be so bold to say… NO Apostles… you have no clue what my culture is like today… so I don’t have to follow what you say the Lord’s command is… <br>
<br>
If we feel safe in doing that… Then let us make a list of the scriptures we do like dealing with… like reconciliation, forgiveness, working hard, sexual immorality, homosexuality, divorce… and the like.. and let us begin putting justifying oursleves in the reasons why we don't have to follow what has been commanded concerning these issues... and then we all can get along. (We will look just like the world)... but at least our Churches will be equal and unified.<br>
<br>
It was God... It was our GOD, Jesus Christ...brothers and sisters.... OUR LORD GOD...Jesus Christ gave the command. Are we ever going to adequately address that issue.... <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Before we try to move forward we need to address that attitude in our hearts about what the Command of the Lord says to do... There should be 100% agreement that what we read as the Lord’s command should be done… And then let us ask the Lord how to do it.<br>
<br>
and as I said before I believe there is grace....but if we do not address our hearts then we can never see truly how far away from the norm our culture and disobedience has brought us... even to the point of justifying ourselves in direct opposition to scripture..<br>
<br>
If scripture says "Forgive your Brother" can I then tell my brothers and sister NO, Do not forgive your brother... or... You have a choice in whether or not you should forgive your brother... <br>
<br>
This issue is no different.... but just like the pretrib doctrine and many others we can justify just about anything we want to do with scripture... We are in the last days...<br>
<br>
We know the scripture says: <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Now if a woman made a choice to be silent just like the other prophets, could she actually be silent? Yes or No?..... Yes she could. She has a choice. Obey the command or disobey the command. Either way that is between her and the Lord... just like a Husband loving his wife as commanded is between him and the Lord. We are accountable to Christ.<br>
<br>
If a woman chooses to remain silent would she be being obedient to a command of the Lord or would she be disregarding a command of the Lord.... All we need to do to answer that questions is to look at the command of the Lord to find out yes or no... <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak,<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->And if the answer is YES.... that is being obedient to the command as it is written... Then <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted,<!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Are we ever going to address this or are we going to continue to try to put this off on Paul.... Are we going to address where are hearts have been deceived by our cultures and where our flesh truly does not want to submit to this word and others….. <br>
<br>
Is what Paul has written his own command or the command of Jesus himself? Whose command is it. It does no good to remain deceived and justified in disobedience.<br>
<br>
I believe it would be better to ask for grace and forgiveness and to acknowledge that we are dead wrong in the attitudes of our hearts and we are prideful...and our Church cultures look nothing like what they are supposed to look like... If Paul were on this earth and Jesus was next to him... I believe our mouths would be shut out of pure fear and our boldness in opposition to these commands and others would somehow fade away... And there would be no issue... "This is the Lord's command"...<br>
<br>
<br>
In him,<br>
<br>
Cielohim<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cielohim@herbsdiscussionboard>cielohim</A> at: 3/4/06 11:39 am<br></i>
cielohim
 

Just a General Observation

Postby cielohim on Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:20 am

This is a personal note.... I do not believe we will see our congregation get back to what has been written. Not within the structures that have consumed our body today... 501c3 Orgs... 3 Point sermons... 10 minutes for praise... 30 minute sermon, 5 minute announcements, tv sales, book sales, holy water sales, merchandise sales…. and then dismiss...<br>
<br>
There is no room in our congregations for what we read for orderly worship as prescribed by the Lord's command. And so we are at fault and the woman issue is just one of many...<br>
<br>
But one more time... Look at our hearts... we can set here and justify our disobedience to a clear command of God with no fear and actually believe our stance in opposition to the word of God is truly the right way to go... WE ARE WRONG…<br>
<br>
Wouldn't it be better to say "YES" that word is true and we should do it? But we are that far gone where our hearts cannot even discern that... again...myself included.. this is not the only issue we are blinded to.<br>
<br>
In him,<br>
<br>
Cielohim<br>
<p></p><i></i>
cielohim
 

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