And your women shall be silent in church....

by **blessedayers** on Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:21 pm

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 
Joe 2:29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit. 
 
Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel: 
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: 
Act 2:18 Yea and on My servants and on My handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy. 
 
Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him. 
Act 21:9 Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied. 
Act 21:10 And as we tarried there some days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. 
 
1Co 14:29 And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern. 
1Co 14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence. 
1Co 14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted; 
1Co 14:32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets; 
1Co 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 
1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 
1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. 
1Co 14:36 What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? 
1Co 14:37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. 1Co 14:38 But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 
1Co 14:40 But let all things be done decently and in order. 
 
 
So....do we have a contradiction here? 
 
Or is there something we arent understanding about these verses? <div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:47 am

I am interested to know what you have found within the Word on this Jody. Please, do share. 
 
<img src=http://www.websmileys.com/sm/angels/teu35.gif ALT=":a2"> 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **Bob the Quiet** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:44 am

As far as the women keeping silent, notice that they are only being told to be quiet in church, but they are free to speak on it outside of the church. Although it would appear that a woman is to go to her husband with it first. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ 
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon

by **blessedayers** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:28 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>As far as the women keeping silent, notice that they are only being told to be quiet in church, but they are free to speak on it outside of the church<hr></blockquote> 
 
 
So...the holy spirit is poured out on women...but they can only prophecy outside of the congregation? 
 
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: 
Act 2:18 Yea and on My servants and on My handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy. 
 
Act 21:8 And on the morrow we departed, and came unto Caesarea: and entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him. 
Act 21:9 Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied. 
 
1Co 14:29 And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern. 
1Co 14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence. 
1Co 14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted; 
 
How can others discern what they say ....unless they are doing so in the midst of the congregation...for all to hear? 
 
Could it be....that the corinthian women....who are unlearned....are being told not to ask questions while teaching and prophecying are going on in the meetings? 
 
Thus not interupting the service.... <div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **Bob the Quiet** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 am

hmmm...you know....that does make more sense. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ 
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon

by **carpentersdaughter** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:41 am

The church in greek means "called out ones." 
 
Now, put that where scriptures says "Where two or more are gathered, there I am also." 
 
So, if two women meet, there is the Body of Christ. 
 
Should they remain silent. What if a man enters the conversation, should a women be quiet then? 
 
I have always thought/believed that a Woman was not to take a place of shepard in the local Body of Christ as they meet together. 
 
But, I was brought up to believe this, so I could be wrong. 
 
But I do have to say when I see a woman pastor, it does bother me, because I think/believe they are doing what they want over what God has said. 
 
So, to answer the question....<img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"> 
 
<img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/rev320A.gif" style="border:0;"/>

by **perigrini** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:45 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Could it be....that the corinthian women....who are unlearned....are being told not to ask questions while teaching and prophecying are going on in the meetings? 
 
Thus not interupting the service....<hr></blockquote> 
I have not investigated this, so I only offer it as a possiblity... 
 
I heard someone on the radio state that early churches had women on one side and men on the other. So the problem was the women shouting across the isle to their husband to clarify one thing or another...clearly something that would disrupt smooth functioning of a service. 
 
That might not be all going on there, but just thought I'd toss out something I'd heard. 
 
Blessings, 
 
perigrini

by **carpentersdaughter** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:52 am

I've heard that too Peri. 
 
How do we as Christians take the word of God literally, but at the same time, some of the things that Paul stated was because of the culture, and not necessarily a word from God. 
 
Some things that were spoken against was because of culture, such as men with long hair. Some of the men were braiding their hair, and placing gold and other objects in these braids, and it wasn't right culturally to do this, so Paul told them to stop. 
 
This would not apply to men with long hair today. 
 
Anyway, so how do we seperate culture from what God desires of us. <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/rev320A.gif" style="border:0;"/>

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:24 am

I adamantly believe that because of the order God instituted between women and men, must be kept, it must also be kept within the practices of the church. I also can say that I have seen from experience that it is thru women that the pastor husband can be thrown off-track. He gets distracted by a false teaching by wife, and before he knows it, he has strayed from the Authority of God. I know you'll hate to hear it, but, because women do tend to work more out of emotion, they are more often easily deceived by fine sounding words and smooth talk, and then will take it for husband to taste and see if it is sweet. If you then put a woman in leadership over a flock, she will take the smoothness straight to the flock, and they will be devoured. A woman should NEVER be in the leadership position within the church......that was the example that God gave in the following of Eve's deception. 
 
It is brought into the NT teaching for a reason. 
 
2 Cor. 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 
 
1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 
 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **SherreeL** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:25 am

I've heard it, too. Am going to wait for the answer to your question, myself, Linda. <img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/> 
 
Sherree

by **blessedayers** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:12 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I adamantly believe that because of the order God instituted between women and men, must be kept, it must also be kept within the practices of the church.<hr></blockquote> 
 
I agree...Im not talking about authority here...Im talking about the admonition for wpmen to be silent. 
 
Again....if they are to prophecy....then where is this to take place? <div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:42 am

Interesting point and valid question. I will be curious to see what we find out from the Word and the Spirit of the Lord. 
 
In the meantime, I'm also passing along your thread to hubby to look at and ponder. It's a good question Jody. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:49 am

I will say this though, if there were many women prophesying in the days of Paul, it sure wasn't mentioned much, other than the couple of references already mentioned. It was not a big focus either within the Scriptures, for women to be of prominence within prophetic occasions. It has always, for the most part, been the men. I believe that the role of women was meant to be more obscure. Not to take away from women, because let's face it, they were the birthing places for many great things/men. But, they are seemingly the "silent" strengths behind wonderous ocassions, and I think that is EXACTLY how God intended for it to be. So, even if there are women amongst the body who are very relevant to prophesies, it's probably more subtle in the way God has it work within the body. Maybe it happens in quiet conversations in home groups or dinners amongst believers. Maybe a word is spoken there by a particular woman, and then later when things take place, it is only noticiable to a handful, but the appropriate handful within the church. You know what I mean? It's just not supposed to be in the forefront with a lot of focus on it. 
 
I'm just thinking out loud here. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tsth@herbsdiscussionboard>tsth</A> at: 2/27/06 11:50 am

by **JADLAZ99** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:51 am

We need to educate ourselves on the cultures of the churches to which theses letters were written. In doing so it will help us understand what may appear too ‘vague’ or what could possibly be misunderstood in scripture. Failure to do so could possibly result in erroneous teachings … not because of God’s word is insufficient but because of our laziness. 
 
Obviously the churches to which Paul wrote knew exactly Paul’s intent. Much the same way those here reading this thread would understand that this same vagueness in the phrase - “women are to be silent” could be compared to - “but of one wife.” An outsider reading this who is not familiar with that other thread would not understand the reference; but because many of you posted to that other thread there is no confusion. 
 
I didn’t bring up that other thread to rekindle its debate, but rather to help illustrate the need to understand the cultures and practices involved in the churches at the time the letters were written. 
With my mind on hope, my heart, my soul on Faith. 
 
Running on Faith ... 
 
JAD 
 
****************** 
"If Darwin's theory of evolution was correct, cats would be able to operate a can opener by now." 
****************** 
Lord help me to be the person my dog thinks I am. 
****************** 
A wise man once said, “Most I fear God. Next to Him, I fear him that fears Him not.” If someone has no fear of God, he will lie to you, steal from you, and even kill you … if he thinks he can get away with it.”

by **blessedayers** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:04 am

The reason I started this thread was...yes...due to the other one...but not because of it...it just reminded me of this topic. 
The seeming contradictions of these 2 subjects are worth exploring. 
 
If women are to prophecy....but they have to be silent in church....then were does that leave them? 
 
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 
 
1Co 14:26 What is it then, brethren? 
When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. 
Let all things be done unto edifying. 
 
1Co 14:27 If any man speaketh in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that in turn; and let one interpret: 
1Co 14:28 but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 
 
1Co 14:29 And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern. 
1Co 14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence. 
1Co 14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted; 
 
 
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 
1Co 14:40 But let all things be done decently and in order. 
 
 
Another subject we could explore in another thread is...what exactly is prophecying? 
<div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **Ready1** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:59 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If women are to prophecy....but they have to be silent in church....then were does that leave them?<hr></blockquote>Are these mutually exclusive? 
 
Could a woman not 'prophecy' in the last days without doing so in the assembly? Just observing, 
 
E.

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:06 pm

Dear JAD, 
 
The thing that concerns me, is that the topic of women in the church is most times used out of context to justify putting women in authority positions, and there is absolutely no determination from the Word that this is in agreement with the order that God instituted among men and women believers. That is why, to me, it becomes so very dangerous to begin to base Scripture upon societal terms rather than as a whole, because in my opinion, that is where the church has gotten off track in so many other issues such as homosexuality, abortion, divorce, etc. People tend to try to justify their actions in these matters by deciding that Scripture must somehow be dated and therefore no longer valid.........I see this as the slippery slope on any debate about the Word, it can/has very easily become the catalyst for the current day false teachings among the churches, with specific focus on whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not. If we can justify that the position of women within the church was only pertinent for a certain generation and time, then we can most certainly do the same with homosexuality in the church. If you hold one teaching as susceptible to variance based upon the current society, then why not the rest of them, i.e. divorce, abortion, homosexuality, etc. 
 
I am not dismissing what Jody is talking about in regard to prophesy and women, but I just don't want to see issues compromised merely based upon a particular generation or society. I don't think there is room for it in regard to the Lord. Either His Word is valid on all occasions, all ages, all people, or It is not. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **SherreeL** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:19 pm

tsth, I have to agree with your point. I was thinking about this after reading this thread. If the correct interpretation of these scripture is based on the knowledge of the culture at that time, then what about those who do not have a way of knowing about the culture during the time that the scripture was written??? There are many Christians in the world today that are glad to just be able to get their hands on a bible, let alone study material concerning cultural history. <img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/> 
 
Sherree

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:29 pm

You know, I do however find this an interesting topic especially with regard to those who are mentioned in the NT as prophetess. Here is a great contrast though, that speaks to the very issues I was addressing in this matter in regard to women being catalyst for false teachings. 
 
Here are 2 examples, one right, one wrong! But, I do think we can see some things in regard to the Rev. 2 reference.....she calls herself a prophetess, which again in my opinion is where it is focusing on the "woman", when in reality of the body and the particular prophetess, that does not happen. 
 
Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she * was of a great * * age *, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 
 
 
 
Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 
 
 
Prophetess 
 
Strongs #4398 
 
a prophetess 
a woman to whom future events or things hidden from others are at times revealed, either by inspiration or by dreams and visions 
a female who declares or interprets oracles 
 
comes from root #4396 
 
<a href="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4396&version=kjv" target="top">Strongs meaning for #4396</a> 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:34 pm

I just keep thinking that the prophetess is one whom only a few are familiar with and are aware of her. I just don't think it is something that is highly regarded within the majority of the church. Again I think there are occasions of socializing where the particular woman may speak, and then a handful around her will know that she has this particular gift. 
 
Otherwise, wouldn't there have been many with "Anna" at the occasion of the Christ child at the temple? Why was it a seemingly quiet and unnoticeable event with her seeing the baby? 
 
I'm just thinkin about these things. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **blessedayers** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:42 pm

I agree....I think we need to understand what prophecying was about...all together. 
 
What did it consist of in the OT and NT....it wasnt just fortelling the future....a good part of what the OT prophets did was...reprove and rebuke...then they told what was going to happen if there was no repentance. <div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **SherreeL** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:55 pm

That's true, Jody. So in the NT, how does a woman that has to remain silent have the authority to reprove and rebuke in order to bring about repentance outside of the assembly? <img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/hum.gif ALT=":humm"> <img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/> 
 
Sherree

by **Bob the Quiet** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:29 pm

Do you need to be a police officer or a judge to tell someone they have broken the law? If you see someone speeding, killing a person, abusing a child, abusing an animal, stealing, and suchlike...is it not clear that the law is being broken? You don't need to be a police office to tell the person that they are breaking the law. Now, you may need to have a police office back you up on it if the person ignores you (and of course to make an arrest). 
 
In the Church, I see no problem with a woman reproving and rebuking other members of the congregation, and even the Church leadership. She does not need authority to point out error (and error would be what she's reproving and rebuking). She simply has not the authority to really do anything about it except to leave I should think. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ 
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:26 pm

My husband brought up an interesting point, which was also highlighted in regard to Anna and the verse in Joel, about seeing visions. 
 
He pointed out that many of the prominent women in Scripture did "see" many things, and then the men were told about it after the women saw it. In particular I think of Mary's seeing the angel Gabriel, how about the women at the tomb, who saw the angels and then Jesus, Anna saw the Christchild. I then put this in context with the strongs definition of the "prophetess" of Anna, which would bring it all together. I think we need to be sure and research the exact terms that are used in the exact verses referring to women, as opposed to just prophecy on its own, which may be different? I don't know, I haven't looked yet. If anyone has a "Strongest Strongs" I would highly reccomend using it, as it really does have a more thorough look at word meanings......my friend teases me, cause I have one, so I am really "strong". I'll be curious to see what there is to find in regard to this. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **tsth** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:29 pm

I will say that in regard to Anna the prophetess, the term prophetess had nothing to do with "rebuking or correcting". 
 
Prophetess 
 
Strongs #4398 
 
a prophetess 
a woman to whom future events or things hidden from others are at times revealed, either by inspiration or by dreams and visions 
a female who declares or interprets oracles 
 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **Mttw633** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:34 pm

I'm researching mystery babylon and the queen of heaven under another thread, and maybe the concern back then was giving women a prominent role in the church while there was such pagan goddess worship going on at the time. Here's an example: 
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:3 
 
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 1 Corinthians 11:4 
 
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Corinthians 11:5 
 
Prophesing in the uncovered sense was outside of the assembly. 
 
Under Priests, Monks and Nuns, Hislop notes that "The Arabians acknowledge no other gods than Bacdus or Urania (i.e., the Queen of Heaven), and they say that their hair was cut in the same manner as Bacchus's is cut; now, they cut it in a circular form, shaving it around the temple.... Over all the world, where the traces of the Chaldean system are found, this tonsure or shaving of the head is always found along with it. The priests of Osiris, the Egyptian Bacchus, was always distinguished by the shaving of their head." 
 
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Cor 11:5 
 
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 1Co.11:6 
 
Does this help?

by **sparklymomma** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:38 pm

But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.  1 Corinthians 11:16 <div style="text-align:center"><img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/CoffeeStupid.txt"/></div>

by **Mttw633** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:11 pm

I've been staring at a computer screen too long I think, but I don't know what your last comment was in reference to, could you please clarify?

by **Bob the Quiet** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:25 pm

I think Mttw's saying that Christianity does not have those pagan customs in it...but I am not sure. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ 
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. SpurgeonEdited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bobthequiet>Bob the Quiet</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1694/bobpic21ha.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/27/06 5:53 pm

by **cielohim** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:28 pm

I believe we honestly cannot see the beauty of what Paul has written about women in the Bible... 
 
Our Church culture truly resembles many aspects of this present age. 
 
And many of the verses pertaining to Authority within the Bible have been abused... IE: Slaves submit to your masters even ones who are harsh... 
 
But there abuse does not negate the TRUTH and validity of the commands even to this present day. 
 
Paul's understanding of God's creation may have been a little more insightful than ours simply because of his relationship with the Lord and the revelations he was given by God himself... IE: Man made in God's image... Woman taken from Man... He gave us specific commands for our Churches... (That’s the Beauty of it… they are for correct order in the eyes of the one who made the order/authority…. God)… <blockquote>Quote:<hr>8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.<hr></blockquote> 
And of course the scripture goes on to say man is not independent of woman… but that truth does not refute what is written about the relation of Authority God has ordained from creation to glorify him between a man and woman and correlates to his commands for God’s Church…. or else we would not read what we do... with the explanations given to us by a men who I don't think are lying.. IE: The Apostles... "This is the Lord's command" 
 
I always ask the Pastor or Leaders who says some commands were for a specific culture or age of the Church: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>When and at what time did you receive authority to Change what was given to us by the Apostles..??<hr></blockquote> 
Was it 5 years after the commands were given... 10 years.... how about 60 years… was it at that time the commands became irrelevant to the church culture 60 years after they were given... How about 100... 200.... 300.... When has anyone received the Authority to say "Church we do not have to adhere to what it written because it is not relevant to our culture to day"... 
 
We have become so proud in our knowledge.... it's pretty scary to think Men feel like they have that liberty when those commands were actually given by a Men who walked with Jesus… who saw Angels … Paul was actually taken up to the Heaven.... and shown things he could not even speak of..... But by who.. who were the those commands given by? Paul says "This is the Lord's command"... 
 
But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 1 Corinthians 11:16..... Do we consider ourselves the Churches of God? 
 
I believe it would be better for us to say... because of our culture it is hard for us to revert back to what this words is actually saying....Lord forgive us but give us the heart to understand and do… 
 
Or even that because of this culture I am having a hard time understanding how to apply these verses to our current Church because we look nothing like what is written.... (Of course those are no excuse).... 
 
But I believe we should acknowledge what the word says.... and that we are not doing it.... But we cannot and I say again... We cannot justify ourselves in that what we read is not valid or does not need to be applied to our current congregations... If we do that we have put our contemporary theological teachings above what the scripture says/ actually commands us to do.. 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Orginal Theology: "Woman should remain silent in the Churches" 
 
Current theology: No woman need not remain silent in the Churches because that word has no relevance in our church culture today.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Well... the word says one thing… and we are saying something in direct opposition to what is actually written… But we feel comfortable in our justification of why we don’t have to do what it says… (It’s a lot easier) 
 
It behooves me to actually see men of God standing behind the latter statement... They have just spoken in direct opposition of the scripture and then justified themselves by their theological teachings... …………Signs of the times.. 
 
In him, 
 
Cielohim

by **SherreeL** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:47 pm

Well, this is getting really interesting. I'll just continue reading....<img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/hum.gif ALT=":humm"> <img src="http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b263/Lovesboxers/boyandsheep1.gif"/> 
 
Sherree

by **JADLAZ99** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:05 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>not because of God’s word is insufficient but because of our laziness<hr></blockquote> 
 
2 Timothy3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 
 
I did not intend to imply (and thought I had stated such) that God’s Word alone was not sufficient. In every way God’s Word is sufficient. Every letter of God’s Word has power for life today we just can not take it out of context and twist it into what we want it to say or mean. 
 
Yet sometimes people have questions about a phrase or something in scripture that leaves them wondering as to its intent. It is in those cases, sometimes, where understanding the cultures and issues being dealt with in the early church add to our understanding. 
 
Also something to be aware of when reading 1 Corinthians is that each chapter relates to and sometimes builds upon the surrounding chapters. To clearly understand chapter 13 one also has to read chapter 12 and 14. It is no mistake that Paul deliberately stops talking about the other gifts of the Spirit and talks about love when he does. 
 
Further, chapters 6, 7 and 8 need to be read together to have a clearer understanding of the situation surrounding the Corinthian church and the issues they faced concerning immorality, marriage and idolatry. In chapter six verse 19 there is a sharp contrast to the temple of Aphrodite in Corinth where the priestesses were prostitutes, but unless you had the ability to research it would be difficult to know that. Also, in knowing that it helps to clarify surround passages. Understanding the Corinthian culture is very help to understanding the problems that plagued the Corinthian church. 
 
In 1 Corinthians 14:34 whatever the restriction means it must in someway include tongues and prophecy (see vs 27, 29 where the same Greek verb for speak is used). Also see 1 Timothy 2:12 – where women are not to assume the office of teacher in the church. Women may teach as long as they do not usurp the place of leadership in the church. The injunction is based on the relationship of man and woman in the original creation (Gen. 2:18, 3:6). 
 
Some believe that in light of 11:3 there is a God-ordained order that is to be the basis for administration and authority. Women are to be in submission to their husbands both at home (see Eph 5:22) and in the church (see v. 34; 1Ti 2:11-12) regardless of their particular culture. According to this view, a timeless order was established at creation (see 11:5-6). 
 
[11:5-6 For a woman, taking off her head covering in public and exposing her hair was a sign of loose morals and sexual promiscuity. Paul says she might as well have her hair cut or shaved off. The shaved head indicated that the woman either had been publicly disgraced because of some shameful act or was openly flaunting her independence and her refusal to be in submission to her husband. Paul's message to her was: Show your respect for and submission to your husband by covering your head during public worship. 
 
Some do not see in these verses a temporary cultural significance to the covering/uncovering of the head. They insist that, since Paul referred to the order of creation (vv. 7-9), his directive is not to be restricted to his time. Thus women of all times should wear a head covering. 
 
Others find a lasting principle in the passage requiring wives, in all ways, to show respect for their husbands by submitting to their authority--not merely by a particular style of attire, but by godly lives. Man, who was created first, is to have authority over his wife (see 1Ti 2:11-14). The wife was made out of his body (Ge 2:21-24) to be his helper and companion (Ge 2:20). She is to honor her husband by submitting to him as her head (see v. 3). 
 
Still others see these verses, not as a mandate for all marriages, but as reflecting marriage relationships at that time in Corinth and therefore giving a reason why the women there should have covered their heads (v. 10). They point to vv. 11-12 as a contrast, emphasizing equality and mutual dependence between men and women who are "in the Lord" (v. 11; see Gal 3:28; 1Pe 3:7).] 
 
Others maintain that Paul's concern is that the church be strengthened (v. 26) by believers showing respect for others (see vv. 30-31) and for God (see v. 33) as they exercise their spiritual gifts Such respect must necessarily take account of accepted social practices. If within a particular social order, it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church--and it was in this case (v. 35)--then she shows disrespect by doing so and should remain silent. There were occasions, though--even in this culture--for women to speak in church. For example, in 11:5 Paul assumes that women pray and prophesy in public worship. Thus his purpose, according to this view, was not to define the role of women but to establish a fitting (vv. 34-35) and orderly (vv. 27-31) way of worship (v. 40). 
 
Still others say that in this context Paul is discussing primarily the disruption of worship by women who become involved in noisy discussions surrounding tongues-speaking and prophecy. Instead of publicly clamoring for explanations, the wives were to discuss matters with their husbands at home (cf. v. 35). Paul does not altogether forbid women to speak in church (see 11:5). What he is forbidding is the disorderly speaking indicated in these verses. 
With my mind on hope, my heart, my soul on Faith. 
 
Running on Faith ... 
 
JAD 
 
****************** 
"If Darwin's theory of evolution was correct, cats would be able to operate a can opener by now." 
****************** 
Lord help me to be the person my dog thinks I am. 
****************** 
A wise man once said, “Most I fear God. Next to Him, I fear him that fears Him not.” If someone has no fear of God, he will lie to you, steal from you, and even kill you … if he thinks he can get away with it.”Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jadlaz99>JADLAZ99</A> at: 2/27/06 6:48 pm

by **Barbarbar** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:53 pm

Re: And your women shall be silent in church...... 
 
------------------------------------------------------------ 
(Susanne wrote) 
1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 
------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
BUT......I (Paul).....suffer not a women to teach....nor to usurp authority over the man....... 
 
Notice.........Paul said.......I suffer not a woman to reach.... 
Paul would not allow a woman to speak or teach........He did not say.....The Lord.....but I (Paul)..... 
 
This was Paul who did not allow women to teach or speak in the church......... 
 
Under the Law........ 
I Corth 14:34........LET.....LET your women keep silene in the churches.....for it is not permitted unto them to speak.......but they are commanded to be under obedience as also SAITH THE LAW...... 
 
 
BUT.....CHRIST HAS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW...... 
 
Gal.3:13......Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.....being made a curse for us.....for it is written.....CURSED IS EVERY ONE WHO HANGETH ON A TREE....... 
 
 
14.......That the Blessings of Abraham.....might come on the 
Gentiles........through Jesus Christ......that we might receive THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT.......THROUGH FAITH. 
 
To prophsey....we have to have the Spirit......The Holy Spirit. 
 
What Adam and Eve lost in the garden.......(they died spiritually).......Jesus has redeemed us FROM THE CURSE...of the law......... 
 
And the Spirit......the promise of the father is now given to us......Male and Female......the believer...... 
 
Jesus has restored all that was lost.........by the shedding of his Blood on the cross.......He has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law.......Being made a curse for us.....that the Blessings of Abraham may come on us the Believers.... 
 
 
The curse for the women......WAS child bearing and......her husband would rule over her..........the curse for the man was........cursed is the ground for thy sake......in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of they life........ 
 
 
But Joel prophsied....... 
 
Acts 2:16......Put this is that......which was spoken by the prophet Joel........ 
 
17.....And it shall come to pass in the last days.....saith God.....I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh........ALL FLESH.......and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.......and your young men shall see visions.....and your old men shall dream dreams...... 
 
18......And on my servants.....and on my HANDMAIDENS......I WILL POUR OUT IN THOSE DAYS OF MY SPIRIT........and they shall prophesy............ 
 
 
This was foretold........God ordained it by His word........ 
 
The Spirit would poured out on man and woman........No respect of persons........ 
 
Now there is divine order........ 
 
I Corth. 11:3.......But I would have you know......that the head of every man is Christ.....and the head of the woman is the man....and the head of Christ is God........ 
 
Let every thing be done in divine order....... 
 
 
 
 
bb

by **reedax** on Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Now, put that where scriptures says "Where two or more are gathered, there I am also."<hr></blockquote> 
 
 
So is God present when there is just one person? This is the line where people write witty quotes, interesting insights or bible verses

by **blessedayers** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>My husband brought up an interesting point, which was also highlighted in regard to Anna and the verse in Joel, about seeing visions.<hr></blockquote> 
 
The interesting thing about Anna is....she is our bridge between OT and NT. 
 
Luk 2:36 
And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity, 
Luk 2:37 
and she had been a widow even unto fourscore and four years), who departed not from the temple, worshipping with fastings and supplications night and day. 
Luk 2:38 
[And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks unto God.... and spake of him to all them that were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem. 
 
 
Ok...with Anna as a precedent in the NT representing the OT...lets look at one example given us. 
 
2Ch 34:19 
And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes. 
2Ch 34:20 
And the king commanded Hilkiah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king's, saying, 
2Ch 34:21 
Go, enquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book. 
2Ch 34:22 
And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, 
the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; 
(now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college) and they spake to her to that effect. 
 
2Ch 34:23 
And she answered them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me, 
2Ch 34:24 
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah: 
2Ch 34:25 
Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched. 
2Ch 34:26 
And as for the king of Judah, who sent you to enquire of the LORD, so shall ye say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel concerning the words which thou hast heard; 
2Ch 34:27 
Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD. 
 
 
If Anna is our bridge to the OT....at this point we have to ask ourselves....did God change His mind about having a woman in this role? 
<div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **tsth** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:24 am

Dear Jody, 
 
I will be looking this morning to see if there is any difference in the term of prophetess used for Anna(which does not indicate a position of rebuking or correcting), and the term used for Huldah the prophetess. I'm curious if there is a difference in meaning for the 2 terms used between the OT and NT? I did note that with Huldah, again she was not designated as "within the church/temple", but then again, I don't know that any woman would be in that time? That in itself is significant.......women just were not to BE prominent within the spiritual, either in the temple worship OR seemingly in the leadership of the NT early church. The women have always been pictured as caretakers, hostesses, nurturers(mothers).......which I might add here is VERY necessary to the life of the church body. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **blessedayers** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:18 am

Something else to consider in regards to the OT expectations of a man and woman role....the Law of the Nazarite. When we think of the title nazarite....often its in terms of a male...but the law included women. 
 
I wont post it all here...but I highly recommend reading it. 
 
 
Num 6:2 
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, 
When either man or woman 
shall separate themselves 
to vow a vow of a Nazarite, 
to separate themselves unto the LORD 
 
 
Num 6:5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. 
Num 6:6 
All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body. 
Num 6:7 
He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head. 
Num 6:8 
All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD. 
 
The above verses are speaking of....men and women who desire to seperate themselves to the Lord. In this area at least...it wasnt forbidden. 
I dont know much about the vow of a Nazarite...or what their responsibilites were...but it could be what is alluded to here? 
 
1Co 7:4 
The wife hath not power over her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power over his own body, but the wife. 
1Co 7:5 
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be by consent for a season, that ye may give yourselves unto prayer, and may be together again, that Satan tempt you not because of your incontinency. 
1Co 7:6 
But this I say by way of concession, not of commandment. 
<div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=blessedayers>blessedayers</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b16/Ammi_/hrtcrossimage.gif" BORDER=0> at: 2/28/06 5:21 am

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:47 am

The reason given in verse 34 that women are not permitted to speak relates directly to the phrase, "just as the law also says." 
 
But the phrase, "just as the law also says," contradicts Paul's known teachings that we have been liberated from the law (Rom. 3:28; 6:14, 7:16, 8:2; Gal 3:11, 13, 4:5, 5:18, etc.). 
 
We have been liberated from the law. Since Paul claims that we have been liberated from the law, how could he appeal to it? Paul also fought against the religious zealots of his day who tried to impose the requirements of the Old Testament's written and oral laws on New Testament believers in Christ. These verses cannot represent the apostle Paul's inspired words. Why? The reason is there is nothing written in the canon of Scripture from which Paul could have quoted to support such a declaration. Such an appeal would also contradict Paul's previously stated position in 1 Corinthians that women can pray and prophesy in church. 
 
However, in 1 Corinthians 14:34 the passage simply states just as the Law also says without reference to it being written. Why doesn't Paul even say "it is written" or even quote from the Old Testament as he has previously done in every instance throughout this epistle (example: in verse 21, Paul says "it is written...." and quotes from Isaiah 28:11) Why? 
 
How could Paul command Let the women keep silence immediately after exhorting the congregation of women and men to covet to prophesy in the context of the church (14:1) and then immediately conclude with an exhortation to covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues (14:39)? 
 
Paul is quoting a saying from the Oral Law of the Jews. <img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/>

by **tsth** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:59 am

Here's what I have found out so far. In regard to the "title" of prophetess, there were 5 women in the OT. 
 
OT 
Miriam 
Deborah 
Huldah 
Noadiah 
Unnamed 
 
Anna was the only 1 in NT in terms of the title of "prophetess". 
 
Now Acts makes reference to daughters that prophesied, but I will say this, we have to be careful, because there are many places where people "prophesied" but just because there is mention of prophesy, does not automatically deem it a "good" thing. There are references to those who prophesied by "Baal". (Jer. 2:8 is one example, Jezebel is another in Rev. 2.) 
 
One thing I did note is that Anna did "speak" of Jesus to many. 
 
Luke 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (sounds like a daily witness she gave to others.) 
 
In regard to the women being silent. It is most definitely in regard to the teaching setting. 
 
1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 
 
#4601 - keep silence, hold one's peace, hidden, concealed, 
 
(Again, here it is in the learning setting) 
 
1 Tim. 2:11-12 
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 
2:12 
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 
 
 
#2271 - quietness, have no objection 
description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others 
silence 
 
I see the term prophetess used for seemingly women of maturity. I am still seeing the role of women within the NT church as one of quietness and meekness........not bold. 
 
Now to look at Acts 2. 
 
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 
 
Prophesy- #4396 
 
to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict 
to prophesy 
with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God 
to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation 
to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels 
under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others 
to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office 
 
Prophetess - #4398 
a prophetess 
a woman to whom future events or things hidden from others are at times revealed, either by inspiration or by dreams and visions 
a female who declares or interprets oracles 
 
I'm still looking and praying. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **Taskmaster** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:10 am

Uh... I will approach this with fear and trepidation. Being a man, and not really having a vested interest in this I want to be careful. Since I have been married now for 16 years I am accutely aware that it always my fault... always, always! <img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"> 
 
I don't know if this pertains or not as I'm referring to woman priest, but it is what came to my mind as I was reading the honest attempts in this thread to understand the mind of God. I'm not claiming to know it, just thought of this as something not discussed yet. Enough of the caveats! 
 
Leviticus 12 - Purification After Childbirth 
 
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 
 
4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. 
 
6 " 'When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. 7 He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. 
 
" 'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' " 
 
 
When God - whom we all agree does not change - established the priest hood he chose to allow only men to be priest. Why? Not sure, but most likely to show forth that jesus, the Messiah would like wise be a man. 
 
If a woman were to be priest - thus required to be "clean" in order to perform duties in the temple before a holy God, consider how many days a year that this person would potentially be unclean - not able to work. 
 
This is a bit off topic, but I found it strange that after giving birth to a child the woman had to make a "sin offering" to the Lord. I am going to assume it is because of the blood flow (life is in the blood?) but it struck me as odd. 
 
Of course, to be fair I must point out that a man was also considered unclean - although only for a day - after certain events. 
 
Just another angle to consider. 
 
 
<img src="http://www.JesusTaxi.com/mikel/images/jesus_fire.gif" style="border:0;"/>

by **tsth** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:12 am

In regard to the law issue, we have not the law, because the commandments are now written on our hearts, because of Christ Jesus. If you look at the verse, it speaks pointedly on the issue of "obedience", which always is commanded, and the point is made, he is just making reference to the law to reinforce that it is right to obey. 
 
1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 
 
Romans 2:11 For God shows no partiality. 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **tsth** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:15 am

Dear task, 
 
I think you have a VERY valid angle to look at. I appreciate very much your post and think it is most relevant to this topic. 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **tsth** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:17 am

OH, and not to mention BRAVE, as I believe you have tread where other men have feared to go! 
 
<img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/armor.gif ALT=":armor"> 
 
In His Love, 
Suzanne

by **blessedayers** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:23 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>This is a bit off topic, but I found it strange that after giving birth to a child the woman had to make a "sin offering" to the Lord. I am going to assume it is because of the blood flow (life is in the blood?) but it struck me as odd.<hr></blockquote> 
 
In this regard I think that we have to make a distinction betweens the different types of laws....the above being primarily a health law. 
 
We have to remember that these people who had come out of Egypt had been exposed to may pagans ideas. 
 
One of these were the blood rituals....pagans put a high priority on blood...thru the cutting of themselves...drinking it...pouring it on themselves...etc. 
 
As we know today....not only is it idolatrous... it spreads disease. 
 
And in the case of a womans menstrual cycle....I suspect the taboo was placed on it in order to prevent such things. 
 
As well as keeping her heathly too....a woman is very susceptible to disease at that time....due to her uterus being in the process of cleansing itself. 
<div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/scani1_11509.gif " style="border:0;"/> 
 
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom... 
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:15 
Jody ***Psalms 119***</div>

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:57 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law<hr></blockquote> 
 
What law? If women are to keep silent because "thus saith the law" that's where we have to begin. 
 
Anyone? <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_125.gif ALT=":answerquestion"> <hr /> <img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/>

by **Bob the Quiet** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:31 am

One thing to keep in mind is that, from my understanding, when the New Testament writers make mention of the Law, it doesn't seem to be so much in the context of 'invoking' the Law as though we must still follow the law. Rather, I see it as using the Law as a guide. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ 
"If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence." - Charles H. Spurgeon

by **RevHam** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:40 am

Just some thoughts: 
 
1Co 14:34 Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 
 
Where in the law does it say this? 
 
1Co 14:36 What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? 
 
Does this not sound as if Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian church for keeping the women silent under this law? 
 
<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_12.gif ALT=":thinking">

by **Ready1** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:50 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Does this not sound as if Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian church for keeping the women silent under this law?<hr></blockquote>Yup! Especially if you leave out vs 35, which comes between vs 34 and vs 36. 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. <hr></blockquote> 
 
 
By the way, <img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/w27.gif ALT=":welcome2"> RevHam. Just observing, 
 
E.Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ready1@herbsdiscussionboard>Ready1</A> at: 2/28/06 7:51 am

by **RevHam** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:21 am

<img src=http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/images/smilies/sheep.gif ALT=":sheep"> THANKS! 
 
by the way . . . <img src=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/halfcent/butbutbut.gif ALT=":but"> 
 
1Co 14:34 Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 
 
Where in the law does it say this? 
 
<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_6.gif ALT=":read">

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:29 am

RevHam 
 
Exactly the premise that Paul invokes for this stipulation. If there is such a law, we need to find it. If there is none, we can know that Paul was referencing the Oral Law of the Pharisees since he expresses disbelief when he exclaims "What? came the law to you only?" 
 
Silence is the subject and if there was such a law, Paul would have quoted it as he did everywhere else in the epistles. His remark was never meant to silence women. He didn't contradict himself.<hr /> <img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~gaudieri/images/not_pass_away.gif" style="border:0;"/>