And your women shall be silent in church....

[Bob the Quiet]

And when Paul speaks of Churches, he is refering to the many churches that are in Corinth.

Proof? Just because the epistle is addressed to the Church in Corinth does not mean that only that one body of believers is ever discussed or referenced. Does it not make sense for Paul to remind them of how churches in other cities do things? When you are writing a letter to someone, do you only tell them things that are immediately relevant to them, or do you reference what others do as well?

[Nocturne]

Yes, I believe (obviously) that homosexuality is a sin, all I'm saying is that I think we can wade into some murky water, when we begin saying that some things were cultural, and others are not.

[Abiding in His Word]

we can wade into some murky water, when we begin saying that some things were cultural, and others are not.

Static, observing and recognizing culture whether in the scripture or other parts of the world we live in is an absolute necessity. The culture of the Amish, Chinese, Irananians, Dutch, Africans, Italians, French must be considered, understood, and respected as we endeavor to love others as we love ourselves. That's not to say we agree with all of them, but we must know that the differences are part of life.

If we approach God's written Word with our own preconceived ideas, what Ezekiel 14 calls "idols of the heart", we will see exactly what we want to see.

One of the most serious problems of Christians is selective literalism. We choose which passages we want to apply literally and balk if someone tries to upset the "fallacy" we have always accepted as "truth."

Some verses reflect the culture of the day and were not meant to be binding commands for all time..

Examples:

When men put on a head covering, it was to indicate mourning, guilt, humiliation or shame as David did when he fled from Absalom.

Paul tells Christians 5 times to greet one another with a holy kiss.

Paul tells Christian men everywhere to pray lifting up holy hands

When Jesus commands the apostles to preach the kingdom, if someone does not receive them they should "shake the dust off their feet"

Leviticus commands that You shall not put on a garment made of two kinds of materials. So taken literally, we cannot wear cotton.

Jesus command to wash one another's feet " If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet". Washing feet was a cultural practice.

Sackcloth and ashes were often seen as a sign of repentance

Wells and cisterns were very much a part of the culture.

Eunuchs were part of the OT and NT culture

The clothes we wear; our hairstyle; the kind of house we live in; the books we read; everything in our lives is affected by the culture in which we live. It cannot be otherwise. The same was true in Bible times.

Without some awareness of the life and society of the times in which the Scripture was written, we will make the "letter of the law" override the "spirit of the law". The spiritual principle will be timeless but often can't be properly appreciated without some knowledge of the background and how it applies to us in our culture today.

[Bob the Quiet]

You're taking static's statement to its (logical) extreme. I don't think he was saying that we should disregard the cultural background. I think what he was getting at is that we can't take the cultural background and use that as the basis for wether or not something in the Bible applies to us today or not. Yes, there is the letter of the law, and there is the underlying spirit of the law. We do need to look at the cultural background, but only to better understand what the writer was getting at. Do we not have equivalents in our culture for the 'cultural practices' discussed in the Bible?

in ancient times sackcloth and ashed was was the sign of mourning and repentance. Nowadays you wear black

In ancient times people greeted each other with a kiss. Today, in America, we shake hands...though there are still areas where they greet with kisses. In the orient bowing is more common.

If greeting with kisses is not acceptable to our culture, then by all means (for America) take the spirit of the law as saying to 'greet with a holy handshake'.

Looking at the cultural background has its logical extreme as well. Personally, I think that that extreme is much more dangerous than Static's extreme.

[Ready1]

Some verses reflect the culture of the day and were not meant to be binding commands for all time..

Without some awareness of the life and society of the times in which the Scripture was written, we will make the "letter of the law" override the "spirit of the law". The spiritual principle will be timeless but often can't be properly appreciated without some knowledge of the background and how it applies to us in our culture today.

We must be very careful when we start down this road, because in Jesus day there were people, who he condemned, who would have agreed with you completely.

Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[Abiding in His Word]

Bob

I wasn't stating any extreme cultural practices. I stated those that are in the Bible. And I didn't take it into my own hands to determine how to apply those cultural practices. What I was saying is that we must take culture into account when determining how certain scripture applies to us in our culture.
I also was saying the we can't always use cultural practices as commands.

You easily made a transition from "Greet one another with a holy kiss" to a handshake and justified the transition from one culture to another. That is correctly applying the "principle" of a verse as opposed to making it an all-time command for all time.

Culture is the subject at hand as well as how we should look at who was speaking of a cultural issue, who it was being spoken to, why it was being spoken, and how it may apply in principle to us in our culture.

[mrshalfcent]

I have been casually studying when I came across the same passages from Romans 16 I believe Blessedayers pointed out but I saw something for all of us to consider.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well (Rom. 16:1-2)

Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. Greet Andronicus and Junias [or Junia, as the KJV translates it, which is feminine] my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me (Rom. 16:3-7)

did you catch this last one?? Greet Andronicus and Junias or Junia...my fellow prisoners who are outstanding among the apostles.....

Junia a woman apparently was an apostle!
I was amazed when I saw this. thoughts??

blessings
laura

[Abiding in His Word]

I knew that

Here's another interesting scripture:

King James

1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

NASB
1Ti 5:14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;

G3616
οἰκοδεσποτέω
oikodespoteo¯
oy-kod-es-pot-eh'-o
From G3617; to be the head of (that is, rule) a family: - guide the house.

G3617
οἰκοδεσπότης
oikodespote¯s
oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
From G3624 and G1203; the head of a family: - goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.

a little different perspective from "keeping house"......

[Blessedayers]

1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

Pro 31:10
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11
The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12
She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13
She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14
She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15
She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16
She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17
She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18
She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19
She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20
She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21
She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22
She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23
Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24
She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25
Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26
She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27
She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28
Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29
Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30
Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31
Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

[James]

Dear Perigini,

The problem with the threory where, women were on one side of the Church, and men were on the other is the fact that in the following verses Paul sums up what hes saying by stating that, "any of you claiming to have the Spirit of God in you, will adhere to these commands." This means, we need to read this literally, and not from a historical point of view. God is the same today, yesterday and always. Women should keep silent in the Church simply because God says so.


I have so much respect for my mother, because she does'nt understand where Gods comming from on this, yet by faith she obeys Him. While I was writing this post I messaged her on MSN Messanger, I wanted a christian womens perspective and heres what she had to say.

james says:
Hey, how do u feel about the bible saying women shouldnt speak in the church, and why do u feel God said that?

**Joanne** says:
because women are led more by emotion and that it gives them something to discuss with their husbands when they get home.

**Joanne** says:
lots of reasons

**Joanne** says:
good study

james says:
And, is that your personal view, or have you prayed about it?

james says:
Yeah it would be, I'm on a message board where it's being discussed, and it's one of those things I don't have a definitive answer on.

**Joanne** says:
I think it also gives the man opportunity to take leadership

james says:
Why do you feel thats important ?

**Joanne** says:
it is the way God set things up

**Joanne** says:
and it is in the bible

**Joanne** says:
and the bible does not change

james says:
yeah strong point, barrels down to having the faith of a child I guess

So yeah, I agree with the emotion part. Women are emotional creatures, more so then men. It could also have to do with the fact Eve was decieved and in turn decieved Adam. Us men have a soft spot for women. The fact remains that God is in control, not us and it becomes a question of who's serving who. God states in the word that Men are at the head of women, and that God is at the head of Man. My understanding of Gensis is that Women were created as Mans helpers/companions. I understand since the 1960's and the whole equal rights agenda being pushed on us, this is hard to wrap our minds around.

It does not demote women in anyway, in comparison men and women are apples and oranges, we are'nt equal because we are not the same. Women have played their role, all throughout the Bible it is Righteous women who we see bringing about all Gods greats!

I myself have been exhorted a countless number of times by women, who I know God used to bring me back to Him.

I feel if God directly spoke to a women and made it clear they were to deliver a prophesy, they would be obligated to do so. Thing is, we have no Biblical record of them being called to do this, so that is an indication that God is the same today, as he was then. We also need to keep in mind God commands women not to address the Church, being the entire body of Christ (please get this idea of a building out of your heads.) which is why we see no written testimonys from women in the Bible, however within their famillys, and circles of friends, I'm sure God uses women to deliver His words in as much as he does men.




Maybe this helped. I'm clearly a fundamentalist.


Selah.

[Guest]

Dear Brother James,

Your post reflects some of the same errors prevalent in the Fundamentalist teachings on women. It seems you have accepted some without providing scriptural support; ie women being more emotional than men. Men and women balance one another by design, so if you want to make that "general" assumption, it's O.K. provided you also admit the balance to men's inability to express emotional is necessary.

Eve was deceived by Satan. I am not responsible for Eve's sin any more than you are responsible for Adam's or David's, or any other individual's other than your own. Granted, the whole human race is born with a propensity to sin, but not because Eve was deceived.

Eve rightly confessed her sin and said she believed the lie Satan told her. Satan is the one who causes sin. Adam, on the other hand, blamed Eve.

Eve is never mentioned after Genesis; but Adam is mentioned in the following verses as having transgressed and covering his sin.

Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:22 ) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(1 Timothy 2:14) And Adam was not deceived (he knowingly transgressed and concealed his sin) but the woman being deceived was (involved) in the transgression.

In conclusion, I don't hear women constantly blaming men for Adam's transgression and concealment of his sin. It would behoove you to exercise proper and a more thorough exegesis in your studies pertaining to women and refrain from making sweeping assumptions about them from small premises.

I will add to this thread one last thought for the brothers:

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you our sisters, who are servants of the church.: 2 That you receive them in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you assist them in whatsoever business they have need of you: for they have been succourers of many. (paraphrased)

[James]

Thanks for the response,

If you noticed in my post,

james says:
Yeah it would be, I'm on a message board where it's being discussed, and it's one of those things I don't have a definitive answer on.

I was throwing ideas out there. The fact remains that scripture is very clear on the womans place within the Church. It is also a fact, that women are more emotional, if you would like scriptures to support this view there are many. For example, when Paul gives couples advice he says, Husbands, love your wives. He tells women to honor their husbands. Can it get anymore crystal clear then that? women are lead by emotion and men are not.

I never claimed we were responsible for Eve, nor Adams sins. However we learn somthing from them that is very relevent. Adam was'nt persuaded by Satan to eat from that tree. Satan persuaded Eve, who in turn persuaded Adam. Maybe I should have elaborated a little more.

You see errors prevalent in the Fundamentalist teachings on women. I see no errors in anything which is Biblicly Fundamental.

[tsth]

That's what happens when the primary building blocks of order are ignored, and the woman listens to the deceiver and acts, rather than going to her husband first and conferring with him in the matter of spiritual issues. She is first deceived and then if husband does not submit to his order of authority/Christ, then he is deceived as well, by her influence.

It's all about the order that God instituted in the first place. If it had been practiced and she had gone to her husband, then he had gone to the Lord with the matter, then the deception would not have occured.

In His Love,
Suzanne

[Blessedayers]

This is my reply to the thread what is your purpose....

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=61561#61561

Im not real sure what my purpose is.....but....I suspect that it has to do with what I do here. My kids are grown and will be out of the home within the next year or so.

I know Im not an evangelist sort....cause I deal in the meatier subjects of the word....my calling seems more geared toward those who have already accepted the Lord as their saviour....to take them from milk to meat.

My husband is more of an evagelist....but for the harder questions he sends them to me.

Are we sinning in this or our callings complimentary?

We did not choose this arraingment....yet there it is and God has blessed it. I for one would prefer it to be the other way around....yet...here we are.

[tsth]

And again I say, look at the "order". Who is the authority? When husband is "bypassed" then the order is missed and becomes out of order, and in danger of deception.


(what I am saying is, you are still abiding by proper order......husband appears to be "first" by what you have said above.)

In His Love,
Suzanne

[Blessedayers]

Who is the authority? When husband is "bypassed" then the order is missed and becomes out of order, and in danger of deception.

Thats just it....the order isnt bypassed....this is just how it worked out.
Why didnt the Lord make it the other way around?
Its not as if we set ouit for it to be this way.....its just how is came to pass.

If the Lord is blessing it.....

[tsth]

Dear Jody,

I should have made a notation on my previous post, for you to see the (****edited****) portion.

In His Love,
Suzanne

[Abiding in His Word]

Suzanne,

It's all about the order that God instituted in the first place. If it had been practiced and she had gone to her husband,

No one should ever be put as one's authority other than Jesus Christ. That's exactly what the Catholics do - put someone as their authority before Jesus.

He is our High Priest. (Heb. 4:14)
He is my Guide (Psalm 48:14)
He is my Deliverer (Hebrews 11:26)
He is my Beloved (Eph. 1:6)
He is my Redeemer (Eph. 1:7)
He is my Door to salvation (John 10:9)
He is my Advocate (1 John 2:1)
He is my Refuge (Isa. 25:4)
He is my Master & Teacher (Matthew 8:19)

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

We are sanctified - all of us. You are not prone to Eve's deception any more than your husband is prone to commit Judas's betrayal. It sounds ridiculous when it's compared that way, doesn't it? But to compare and penalize every woman in the world because of what one woman did, is not correct exegesis of the Word. Each is responsible for her own sin. We cannot build a whole doctrine based on what someone else in the Bible did. We can certainly learn from where others failed, but not make them responsible for the failures or sins committed by them.

This type of teaching that promotes the position and authority in one's life that belongs to Jesus Christ alone, be it a movie star, pastor, prophet, or husband amounts to idolatry.

Both women and men need to go to the one who has the answers for their lives - Jesus Christ - no middle mediator.

[tsth]

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

head/kefalhv #2776:

the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
of things: the corner stone


Do you disregard this order implemented by God? Take heed to the condition of a people and nation out of order:

Isaiah 3:1 For behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, Takes away from Jerusalem and from Judah The stock and the store, The whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water; 2 The mighty man and the man of war, The judge and the prophet, And the diviner and the elder; 3 The captain of fifty and the honorable man, The counselor and the skillful artisan, And the expert enchanter. 4 "I will give children to be their princes, And babes shall rule over them. 5 The people will be oppressed, Every one by another and every one by his neighbor; The child will be insolent toward the elder, And the base toward the honorable."


12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths." 13 The Lord stands up to plead, And stands to judge the people. 14 The Lord will enter into judgment With the elders of His people And His princes:


There is distinct order with God. There is absolute order within families, that God instituted, and when the women begin to struggle with men to take hold of the leadership, there is disruption all about. When women begin to lead there will be error.

In His Love,
Suzanne

[tsth]

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

All of this is TRUTH for women.

In His Love,
Suzanne

[Blessedayers]

How did this thread get back to usurping mans authority?

Again....I will say again.....the subject isnt about a woman taking a mans place.