repentance

the place to ask general questions not prophecy related

repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:36 pm

So here is a question?

Is repentance required for salvation?

This subject came up in another forum, I have my own thoughts, but just wondering what you all understand about this idea?

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Mark F on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:14 pm

John preached repentance and baptism but John was introducing the transition to salvation in the finished work of Christ.

Now we must believe Jesus died for our sins, repentance is evidence our belief is real. It is Christ plus nothing.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
Mark F
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: repentance

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:14 pm

Mark f jesus told the church to repent repeatedly in Revelation. It wasn't just JTB.

Jesus also said in Matthew: "teach men to do all that I have commanded you"
And
"In that day I will declare, depart from me you who work lawlessness."

"Neither fortifications nor drunkards nor extortioners, nor adulterers will inherit the kingdom of heaven."

So yes you're right we have to BELIEVE everything that jesus said. He said that those who work iniquity will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. So clearly we have to repent.

I mean if we're better off plucking out our eyeballs than sinning, then YES we have to repent to be saved.
Jesus himself said that it's better to enter into eternal life maimed than be thrown into hell with 2 eyes.

How could he make it any more clear than that?

Also, Acts 3:19
"Repent and be coverted that your sins may be blotted out"

This verse spells out the conversion process. (Being born again) repentance has never been optional, not in the OT and not in the NT.

First you believe what jesus said and then you decide to obey Him.

Count the cost

There is a cost, your life will need to change

Pick up your cross.

Die to self.

Baptisim is a symbol of our death to self.

That is making Jesus our Lord by obeying him.

Do you know what the word LORD means?

It means you do what that person wants you to do.
(Not what you want to do)

When you call someone Lord, that means they are the boss of you.

You cannot be born again if you aren't willing to make Jesus your Lord (boss)

That is repentance.

Bottom line, if you aren't willing to do His will then he's not your Lord.
User avatar
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3168
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS

Re: repentance

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:05 am

I think we have to understand what repentance is.

We think of repentance in terms of works but from what i understand of repentance. I probably would do more justice to the word metanoia by using a bible dictionary or concordance but i will just Quote wikipedia since it is open source...

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary transliterates the Greek μετάνοια into metanoia and borrowing it as an English word with a definition that matches the Greek: "a transformative change of heart; especially: a spiritual conversion," augmented by an explanation of metanoia’s Greek source: "from metanoiein to change one's mind, repent, from meta- + noein to think, from nous mind."[1] Synonyms for "conversion" include "change of heart" and "metanoia."[14]

In opposition to the Church's interpretation of metanoia as comprising contrition, confession, and penances, Martin Luther objected that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind."[15] For John Staupitz, "...metanoia can be derived, though not without violence, not only from post and mentem, but also from trans and mentem, so that metanoia signifies a changing of the mind and heart, because it seemed to indicate not only a change of the heart, but also a manner of changing it, i.e., the grace of God.".[16] Metanoia is a concept of fundamental character for Luther, as it marks the ground of the first of his 95 thesis.

John Calvin pointed to the double derivation of "repentance": from the Hebrew meaning conversion, or turning again and the Greek [metanoia] meaning a change of mind and purpose. The meaning of the word, for Calvin, is appropriate to both derivations because repentance (a) involves "withdrawing from ourselves," (b) turning to God, (c) "laying aside the old," and (d) putting on "a new mind."[17]
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: repentance

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:13 am

I would agree that repentance means to change your mind.

So, if someone heard the gospel, believed everything that Jesus said, and then decided to obey his word, that would be repentance.

"Not my will, but yours be done"

That's repentance.

Obviously, we can't be perfect but we can still make it our goal to obey him.
Last edited by extravagantchristian on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3168
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS

Re: repentance

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:32 am

extravagantchristian wrote:I would say that repentance means to change your mind.

So, if someone heard the gospel, believed everything that Jesus said, and then decided to obey his word, that would be repentance.

"Not my will, but yours be done"

That's repentance.

Obviously, we can't be perfect but we can still make it our goal to obey him.


I absolutely agree with you EC.

But man is fickle. He changes his mind to accept the grace of God, and calling on God to save him... and not soon later, he is not too sure... and not much later, he has forgotten Jesus altogether...

But is God fickle? Nay, the bible says he is faithful even though we are unfaithful (or fickle).

That one moment of metanoia/repentance settled his eternity for the bible said Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

The gift of God is without repentance.

Salvation is a gift.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:10 am

So KA and EC, would you then say that salvation and repentance essentially go together, like different sides of the same coin?

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:29 am

Just some scriptures for consideration:

Mark 6:7–12
7 And He *summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits;
8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belt—
9 but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.”
10 And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town.
11 “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”
12 They went out and preached that men should repent.


Luke 13:3
3 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.


Luke 24:46–47
46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.


Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 3:18–20
18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,


Acts 17:30
30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,


Acts 26:19–20
19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


2 Corinthians 7:9–10
9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


2 Timothy 2:24–26
24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:33 am

Should we consider repentance a free gift like we do salvation?

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby mark s on Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:50 pm

My two cents . . .

Recognition of the Lordship of Jesus, having risen from among the dead, is the new mind. An "exchanged mind", that is, having exchanged the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ, which is metanoia.

If I actually believe that Jesus is my rightful master, then I will endeavor to do what He tells me to do. Not like before.

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13176
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: repentance

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:53 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Should we consider repentance a free gift like we do salvation?

RT


No. God requires us to say we are sorry for what we have done in turning away from Him and His Statutes. It is our choice/decision to say, "we are sorry," and to "strive" in not returning to the "sin" that causes us to become separated from God.

Perhaps God explains it best in this short passage: -

Ezekiel 18:30-32: - 30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:28 pm

mark s wrote:My two cents . . .

Recognition of the Lordship of Jesus, having risen from among the dead, is the new mind. An "exchanged mind", that is, having exchanged the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ, which is metanoia.

If I actually believe that Jesus is my rightful master, then I will endeavor to do what He tells me to do. Not like before.

Much love!

Mark

Two cents....??? does that mean you do not see it as two sides of the same coin, but two different coins??? :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I am trying to understand the various ways people look at this:
Can you elaborate more on this idea? Are you saying that recognizing who Jesus is and what he did for us, brings about repentance? Is repentance then a result of salvation (a "changed mind") ?



RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:44 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Should we consider repentance a free gift like we do salvation?

RT


Resurrection Torchlight wrote:So KA and EC, would you then say that salvation and repentance essentially go together, like different sides of the same coin?

RT


Yes, I believe the answer to both is Yes.

Paul writes: “Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” (Rom. 2:4).

In fact, if repentance is a change of mind and heart, then is it not a Work of the Holy Spirit that convicted man so that man can repent?

It is an inner Work that could not be possible without the Work of God within... a gift... given to all at the call to salvation... some receives, some harden their hearts...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: repentance

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:59 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:So here is a question?

Is repentance required for salvation?


I don't think we can isolate one word from the gospel to make it the sole path to salvation. Of course scripture relates it to salvation, but it also implies having faith, believing, confessing with your mouth, being born again, be baptized, ask, seek, knock, etc.

We discussed something similar on becoming a believer and I've concluded that there is no "one-size-fits-all" method of attaining salvation.

Keeping Alert made an important point here:

In fact, if repentance is a change of mind and heart, then is it not a Work of the Holy Spirit that convicted man so that man can repent?


So in order to repent, a believer must depend on the Holy Spirit to bring the awareness and/or conviction of the areas of sinfulness in their life. This conviction is not a one-time event as our journey toward Christlikeness necessitates a step-by-step awareness of those areas.

So basically, I see the path to salvation one that is "custom-made" for each individual according to the wisdom of God. And since salvation is found in Jesus Christ, if we lift Him up, He will draw all men to Himself.

Edited to change Ready1 to Keeping Alert. My apologies for the error.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28922
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: repentance

Postby mark s on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:07 pm

Repentance in the OT sense meant to change direction. You were going the wrong way, so you turn back to the right way.

Repentance in the NT sense means a changed mind. You had the wrong mind, now you have the right mind.

The perpetual flaw with the Old Covenant is that man would always change back his direction to the wrong way, because he had the wrong mind.

So the New Covenant was given to solve the problem. Rather than blessings for performance which would never be met, or, in the case of us gentiles, simply measuring up to God which was never going to happen, the solution is not to try to control us by law, but to change us by death and resurrection.

When we read "repent", or "repentance" in the New Testament, whenever this is from the Greek metanoia, it's not about looking at your behavior and seeking to control it. It's about living in the Mind of Christ. The New Mind. Again, literally, the exchanged mind.

Repentance in the New Testament sense expresses the change inside of us. The New Mind of Christ within us becomes the source of our behavior. The focus is not on our behavior, but on expressing the Love of Christ to others.

When we focus on that, trusting in God to lead us and to bring fruitfulness through out lives, this is what prevents our behaviors from being the works of the flesh. We're too busy living Jesus to be sinning.

If we are not living the new life, then by default we are allowing our bodies to do their thing, which is always sin. Always destruction.

We never could control ourselves outside of Christ. In Christ, He controls us. It's up to us to allow His control. To work out into our lives what He is working into us.

Our desires deceive the mind of the flesh, but never the mind of Christ.

Repentance, to my understanding, is the changed mind that allows our behaviors to be controlled.

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13176
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: repentance

Postby Mark F on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:45 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Mark f jesus told the church to repent repeatedly in Revelation. It wasn't just JTB.

Jesus also said in Matthew: "teach men to do all that I have commanded you"
And
"In that day I will declare, depart from me you who work lawlessness."

"Neither fortifications nor drunkards nor extortioners, nor adulterers will inherit the kingdom of heaven."

So yes you're right we have to BELIEVE everything that jesus said. He said that those who work iniquity will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. So clearly we have to repent.

I mean if we're better off plucking out our eyeballs than sinning, then YES we have to repent to be saved.
Jesus himself said that it's better to enter into eternal life maimed than be thrown into hell with 2 eyes.

How could he make it any more clear than that?

Also, Acts 3:19
"Repent and be coverted that your sins may be blotted out"

This verse spells out the conversion process. (Being born again) repentance has never been optional, not in the OT and not in the NT.

First you believe what jesus said and then you decide to obey Him.

Count the cost

There is a cost, your life will need to change

Pick up your cross.

Die to self.

Baptisim is a symbol of our death to self.

That is making Jesus our Lord by obeying him.

Do you know what the word LORD means?

It means you do what that person wants you to do.
(Not what you want to do)

When you call someone Lord, that means they are the boss of you.

You cannot be born again if you aren't willing to make Jesus your Lord (boss)

That is repentance.

Bottom line, if you aren't willing to do His will then he's not your Lord.

I basically gave a simple response.

I gather by reading your response you see that before we can be saved we must do some things.

Making Jesus our Lord.

I would say Jesus is Lord, we don't make Him Lord. In this life God allows men to choose to acknowledge that fact. Do we have to do this before we are saved? He is Lord no matter my declaration of it or not. If I am saved I declare it.

We must do everything that Jesus commanded. Again, must this be done before we are saved?

Repentance is a change of mind and technically is really part of believing. IE; 1 Thess 1:9 Paul writes "You turned to God from idols."

When we agree with God that we are sinners and Jesus death was payment for my sin, we turn to God in faith that He forgives us. Belief and repentance cannot be separated.

I am amazed at how few times the word repentance is used in Scripture and then not even one time in the book of John. But look for belief and faith you have a wealth more Scripture to study. Chaffer notes that the New Testament passages that state salvation is by believing is 115, 35 more that declare faith to be the means, basically faith is a synonym of believing. So about 150 Scriptures that declare the human responsibility in salvation and none reference repentance as a separate act.

So no one can turn to Christ from sin without a change of mind, but to be obedient and change my behavior can only be accomplished by a spiritual man (or woman) which is not the state of an unregenerate man. Therefore repentance cannot be associated with a behavior modification, only a state of mind. What you list is obedience not repentance.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
Mark F
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: repentance

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:23 am

I could list a lot more verses to reinforce what im saying but I feel like they would be dismissed like all the rest. You guys believe what you want and I give up.
User avatar
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3168
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:58 am

extravagantchristian wrote:I could list a lot more verses to reinforce what im saying but I feel like they would be dismissed like all the rest. You guys believe what you want and I give up.


Hang on there EC, don't give up so easily, I honestly want to know and understand your view, and would be very interested in seeing those verses, please by all means share your thoughts. I have my own ideas, but I am not certain if I am right in my own understanding and would very much like to hear from you on this.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:So here is a question?

Is repentance required for salvation?


I don't think we can isolate one word from the gospel to make it the sole path to salvation. Of course scripture relates it to salvation, but it also implies having faith, believing, confessing with your mouth, being born again, be baptized, ask, seek, knock, etc.

We discussed something similar on becoming a believer and I've concluded that there is no "one-size-fits-all" method of attaining salvation.

Keeping Alert made an important point here:

In fact, if repentance is a change of mind and heart, then is it not a Work of the Holy Spirit that convicted man so that man can repent?


So in order to repent, a believer must depend on the Holy Spirit to bring the awareness and/or conviction of the areas of sinfulness in their life. This conviction is not a one-time event as our journey toward Christlikeness necessitates a step-by-step awareness of those areas.

So basically, I see the path to salvation one that is "custom-made" for each individual according to the wisdom of God. And since salvation is found in Jesus Christ, if we lift Him up, He will draw all men to Himself.


For the purposes of this thread, I want to focus on the part of salvation related to repentance, I do understand there is more to salvation.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:08 am

So far, and you all can correct me if I am wrong, there are three views being expressed here

1. Repentance precedes salvation
2. Repentance is coincident with salvation
3. Repentance is a result of salvation

It seems that my initial question doesn't come with an easy answer

Please carry on.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:41 am

here is How I see it...

While in the past, we were doing our own things, not caring a hoot about God, we came to a point where we repented and decided to believe in God and Jesus as our savior. At that very point of repentance anD confession of faith, we are made righteous in Christ, we are born again, we become children of God, we become a new creation, and not least sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Life goes on and here is where the Process of santification whereby we grow to be more Christ-like and for God to use us happens. This involves the daily renewing of the mind aka repentance to follow after Christ rather than self.

Sanctification is a Process and not one of us has it all sorted out. Does the Lordship of Christ involve taking care of our bodies by eating well and exercising? I think it does but few attain unto it. Does the Lordship of Christ involve our complete Trust in HIm so that there is no fear or anxiety? I think it does but few attain unto it.

So let us not confuse the two. There is a repentance unto salvation, and there is a daily repentance unto sanctification.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: repentance

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:14 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:For the purposes of this thread, I want to focus on the part of salvation related to repentance, I do understand there is more to salvation.


OK, although imho we will be unable to arrive at a correct answer since repentance is only one "component" of the process of salvation.

But in an effort to stay within your desired confines....

So far, and you all can correct me if I am wrong, there are three views being expressed here

1. Repentance precedes salvation
2. Repentance is coincident with salvation
3. Repentance is a result of salvation


Yes to all of the above. and.....

It seems that my initial question doesn't come with an easy answer


Agreed...because the question, as it relates to salvation, is too confining when there are other aspects that need to be considered and examined in order to arrive at a complete, correct, and contextual conclusion.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28922
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:22 am

Agreed...because the question, as it relates to salvation, is too confining when there are other aspects that need to be considered and examined in order to arrive at a complete, correct, and contextual conclusion.


Abiding, I am not suggesting that you cannot or should not elaborate including these the other aspects, I just wanted you to know that repentance is the focus of the discussion and that I understand that there is more to it. Please feel free to elaborate on your view as you like, I put no limitations on you or anyone else.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:23 am

Keeping Alert correctly adds the other "components" to salvation in addition to repentance. He mentions:

* confessing
* being born again
* renewing of our minds
* "process" of sanctification
* belief
* new creation

I'm in agreement with him and do not think repentance alone can be isolated from other components regarding salvation.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28922
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: repentance

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:28 am

Ok, I'll post some more verses later.

I wonder if we're confusing feelings with actions?

We can want to do the right thing, and not feel like doing it at the same time. Like when we're on a diet, we want to resist temptation but we also want to have the burger and fries.

Do we wait to obey God until he takes away our appetite for sin?

It seems like some here are suggesting that humans are helpless slaves to our feelings. And that we should sit around and wait until we feel like it to obey God.

But im saying we shouldn't let our feelings lead, but rather lead with our actions and our feelings will follow.

For example I can tell you the exact date that I decided to turn from my sin and obey Gods word (the best I can, realizing that I can't be perfect).

It was May 25th 2003.

I had always believed in Jesus my entire life but up until that date, I wasnt willing to obey him. I just relied on that verse: "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us" so I was an alcoholic, I used to drink almost daily. But on May 25, I woke up with a hangover, I also had a 2 month old daughter. On that day, I looked at her and realized that I was going to ruin her life if i didn't change. I knewI didn't have the strength to do it on my own so I prayed and I told God "im read to live life your way now" so I decided that day that I was going to turn from my sins and start going to church.

The next night I remember I had $5 and I was so tempted to but alcohol with it. I remember circling around the liquor store and then at the last minute I decided to go to Wal-Mart instead and buy baby bottles with that $5.

My point is that it was hard. Its wasnt easy to resist temptation at first. But it got easier over time. Faith doesn't make it easy, it makes it possible. I didn't repent without Gods help, but it took all the strength I had in the beginning. And I don't believe I was saved before that day. Because the bible says that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's what it says, its simple and so easy to understand. Yet some will dismiss it. They say they believe the bible but do they really?
User avatar
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3168
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS

Re: repentance

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:33 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Abiding, I am not suggesting that you cannot or should not elaborate including these the other aspects, I just wanted you to know that repentance is the focus of the discussion and that I understand that there is more to it. Please feel free to elaborate on your view as you like, I put no limitations on you or anyone else.


Thank you, RT. My obvious? resistance to only focusing on repentance as it relates to salvation is because I personally never repented of my sins prior to being born again since I didn't think I was a sinner. :mrgreen: I followed all the rules and never intentionally committed any that existed. I didn't even believe in God, but sincerely wanted to.

I think Jericho hit the nail on the head in the thread I referred to when he focused on the heart as the primary aspect that leads one to salvation. And the most important of all is lifting up Jesus as the source of salvation. So I'll leave it there so as to avoid deflecting the focus you intend for the thread. But thank you for graciously allowing me to share my view.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28922
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: repentance

Postby mark s on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:39 am

Hi RT,

What is your definition of "repentance"?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13176
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: repentance

Postby Mark F on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:42 am

extravagantchristian wrote:I could list a lot more verses to reinforce what im saying but I feel like they would be dismissed like all the rest. You guys believe what you want and I give up.

Extravagantchristian, I surely meant no insult in my reply. I hope you are not hurt.

I believe that we need to be simple yet specific. Thus my first reply was believe in Christ alone.

My second was adding to that reasoning.

Edit: Typo, was using my phone...
Last edited by Mark F on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
Mark F
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: repentance

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:29 pm

mark s wrote:Hi RT,

What is your definition of "repentance"?

Much love!
Mark


I would agree with your definition Mark, that it is a change of mind. Which ultimately results in a change of direction, from the desire to please the flesh to the desire to please God.

In the forum I visited the author was claiming that repentance for salvation would be considered salvation by "works" and would be the same as advocating keeping the law. They called it "Lordship Salvation".

I have never really considered repentance as it relates to salvation, when I trusted in Christ I wanted to repent, I wanted my mind to change, it was natural for me to want to repent of my sin. When I believed, He changed my mind which in turn enabled me to also change my direction.

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.


RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: repentance

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:37 am

EC, just wondering what do you make of this list?

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
(Revelations 21:8 NIV)

This list together with the list in 1Cor 6 used to scare the hell out of me. in fact, there was a period of 2-3 years that I completely gave up being a 'Christian' because I simply could not stop myself from lying. I repented and then i would lie again and on and on it went. I remember telling God, I am sorry I just am not good enough for him. Part of my problem was that I read Revelation as the first book after becoming a Christian! I really thought I was going to hell. (I got this habit of reading books from the ending LOL)

It clearly says All Liars...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: repentance

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:49 pm

The Greek Root, G:5571, ψευδής, pseudés, is found 3 times embedded in two Greek words. The first Greek word, ψευδεῖς, is found in Acts 6:13, and Revelation 2:2.

Acts 6:13-14: - 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, "This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us."

And

Revelation 2:1-3: - 2:1 - "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary.

In both above cases, "false" and "liars" can also be translated as "deceitful," without changing the context of the two verses.

The other occurrence of G:5771, embedded in a Greek word is "ψευδέσιν," is found in Revelation 21:8: -

Revelation 21:6-8: - 6 And He said to me,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

In this verse, "τοῖς ψευδέσιν," could also be translated as "the decievers," without changing the context of the verse.

Now, can this be confirmed from scripture?

My understanding is that Matthew 25:31-46 confirms this understanding, where those who are considered to be the "Goats" in this parable, are the decievers referred to in Revelation 21:8 where"τοῖς ψευδέσιν," has traditionally been translated as "liars" which masks the context of this verse. The better translation, IMHO, is "the decievers," as it is making reference to the Matthew 25:31-46 parable where the "Goats", those who claim that Jesus is their Lord, are also dispatched into the Lake of Fire where Jesus said: -

Matthew 25:46: - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


because they are not "Disciples" of Christ.

These people who are attempting to deceive God with their false claim by calling Christ their Lord, are the ones who are also dispatched into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

KA, God likes people who are honest with Him and themselves. Your understanding of Revelation 21:8 that all people who tell lies, will be also punished and because you told lies, you considered that this passage condemned you to the lake of Fire. IMHO, it does not because you were not trying to deceive God into accepting that you were righteous and worthy in your own strength.

However, our journey to becoming Christ Like, is slow and we all falter along the way, but if we are honest about calling Christ Lord, and adhere to His "Statute", of loving our neighbours, then God's promise is that He will heal us and God's Grace, i.e. Jesus' death on the cross, will cover this short coming in our journey towards righteousness.

Just like Abraham, because we believe wholeheartedly in the promises of God, it is countered towards us as righteousness and we will inherit eternal life.

I trust that the above explanation is useful.

Shalom
Last edited by Jay Ross on Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: repentance

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:27 am

Shalom, Jay.

Those are some well written words.

I especially agree when u said we should not be "trying to deceive God into accepting that your were righteous and worthy in your own strength."

To me, the list in Rev 21 can only mean one thing... even as you beautifully said it is all "God's Grace, i.e. Jesus' death on the cross, will cover this short coming in our journey towards righteousness."

Nevertheless, that last word which you used "righteousness", I would rather use "sanctification". I prefer to understand I have already attained unto righteousness because it was imputed to me when I accepted Jesus as my Savior.

God bless you, Jay.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: repentance

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:56 pm

Thank you KA for your words of encouragement.

Keeping Alert wrote:Shalom, Jay.

Those are some well written words.

<snip>

Nevertheless, that last word which you used "righteousness", I would rather use "sanctification". I prefer to understand I have already attained unto righteousness because it was imputed to me when I accepted Jesus as my Savior.

God bless you, Jay.

In my reference to Abraham I was referring to Genesis 15:6 which in the NKJV is translated as: -
Genesis 15:1-6: - 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."

2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

where "for righteous" is the normal manner in which this verse is translated.

However, The NET Bible translates verse 6 as: -
Gen 15:6: - Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord considered his response of faith as proof of genuine loyalty.

And has as a footnote for "genuine loyalty" the following: -
Or "righteousness"; or "evidence of steadfast commitment." The noun is an adverbial accusative. The verb translated "considered" (Heb "reckoned") also appears with צְדָקָֽה׃ (ṣə·ḏā·qāh, "righteousness") in Ps 106:31. Alluding to the events recorded in Num 25, the psalmist notes that Phinehas' actions were "credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come." Reference is made to the unconditional, eternal covenant with which God rewarded Phinehas' loyalty (Num 25:12-13). So צְדָקָֽה׃ seems to carry by metonymy the meaning "loyal, rewardable behavior" here, a nuance that fits nicely in Gen 15, where God responds to Abram's faith by formally ratifying his promise to give Abram and his descendants the land. (See R. B. Chisholm, "Evidence from Genesis," A Case for Premillennialism, 40.) In Phoenician and Old Aramaic inscriptions cognate nouns glossed as "correct, justifiable conduct" sometimes carry this same semantic nuance (DNWSI 2:962).

sn This episode is basic to the NT teaching of Paul on justification (Rom 4). Paul weaves this passage and Ps 32 together, for both use this word. Paul explains that for the one who believes in the Lord, like Abram, God credits him with righteousness but does not credit his sins against him because he is forgiven. Justification does not mean that the believer is righteous; it means that God credits him with righteousness, so that in the records of heaven (as it were) he is declared righteous. See M. G. Kline, "Abram's Amen," WTJ 31 (1968): 1-11.
(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 by Biblical Studies Press, L.L.C., Dallas, Texas, http://www.bible.org. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)


The point I was trying to make was that if God countered Abraham's belief in God's promises to him as righteousness, then if we believe in God's promises for all of mankind, then that too will be countered as our personal righteousness, as well, for when the time of judgement occurs. How well we demonstrate our belief in God's promises for mankind was not the intended point I was attempting to make.

I also suggested, in what I wrote, that God will heal us of our imperfections as we continue to press into Him as we "work at" keeping God's statutes for our lives. This, promise of healing can be found in Isaiah 58:9b-12: -
Isaiah 58:9b-12: -

"If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your darkness shall be as the noonday.
11 The Lord will guide you continually,
And satisfy your soul in drought,
And strengthen your bones;
You shall be like a watered garden,
And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.
12 Those from among you
Shall build the old waste places;
You shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach,
The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

How God goes about strengthening the respective bones, i.e. heals, of each individual, is God's business and was not the main focus of my post above.

My reason for posting was to present a differing context and meaning of the Greek words, "τοῖς ψευδέσιν," and to show that the traditional English translation of these Greek word did not necessarily reflect the original context and meaning of the Greek text in this particular case.

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: repentance

Postby mark s on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:40 pm

Sanctification is a good word to bring into a discussion on repentance.

Repentance speaks of the exchange of the old mind for the new mind.

Sanctification speaks of the process of replacing the old behaviors originating from the old mind with the new behaviors originating from the new mind of Christ.

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13176
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: repentance

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:38 am

mark s wrote:Sanctification is a good word to bring into a discussion on repentance.

Repentance speaks of the exchange of the old mind for the new mind.

Sanctification speaks of the process of replacing the old behaviors originating from the old mind with the new behaviors originating from the new mind of Christ.

Much love!

Mark


Is Repentance the same thing as Sanctification?

I think they're different.

I say that Repentance can happen in a moment,
Repentance is a decision. When we realize we're doing the wrong thing, and decide to try to do the right thing.

For example, deciding to quit smoking is a decision to repent. Obviously people can quit smoking of their own free will and do it everyday, but having help from the Holy Spirit makes it 10 times easier. The same goes with alcoholics, liars, thieves and drug and food addicts. I'm thankful for the HS and the strength he gives us.

Sanctification is a process that happens over time, when God changes and shapes our character. It can't happen overnight. We can't become a Godly person in one day no matter how hard we try or want to. Receiving the "mind of Christ" happens over a lifetime, we become more like Him when we face trials and temptations our character grows.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”


KEEPING ALERT:
I can totally relate to what you described. When we're battling a stronghold like lieing for example, we have to take up the full armor of God, the shield of faith, (which is trusting that God will always forgive us when we confess our sins) and the helmet of salvation (which is knowing that we are always saved as long as we are still willing to serve him)

If we fail one day, faith gives us the strength to get back up the next day and try again. Like when Jesus prayed that Peter's Faith would not fail after his sin.

If we condemn ourselves, that block gods love from flowing through us. Which makes repentance 10 times harder.

I like to think of the prodigal son, when he committed the ultimate failure his father didn't condemn him, he ran to him placed a robe on him and threw a party. So much so that his righteous. brother was jealous.

We need to expect that kind of love every time we fail. That makes it easier to get back up the next day and try again, knowing that he is for us.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The verse you mentioned about all liars going to hell, that's describing those people who give up, and they don't try to change. Those who think they are saved no matter what they do so why bother trying.
User avatar
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3168
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS


Return to Bible Study Q & A

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest