"Replacement Theology"

[Sonbeam]

Jay,

With all due respect, I suggest you read the following passages very carefully and meditate on them by
the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:8-10

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 4:2,3

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

God bless you,

sonbeam

Sonbeam, what I received from your post above is that I am wrong in your opinion and that I need the HS to come to your understanding as it is the only right understanding to have..

I knew I was taking a chance that my post would be misunderstood, but the scriptures I posted are not my words or opinion. The apostles, through the Holy Spirit, wrote the scriptures I quoted you. Christ did say that the Holy Spirit would bring us into all Truth.

As I’ve said before we need to take into account the whole counsel of scripture to determine the final Word Christ gave us on salvation.

Jesus said many things, but in regards to salvation, he was very explicit. The gospel of John, Chapters 3 and 4 specifically, recorded this.

Salvation is by faith alone in the Son of God, the One He has sent.

The ultimate “child” of wisdom is to have faith in the One the Father sent, as Jesus told the people who asked Him how to be saved.


I am by no means saying that Christians will not have works. But we are birthed by the Spirit through faith alone.


sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

I knew I was taking a chance that my post would be misunderstood, but the scriptures I posted are not my words or opinion. The apostles, through the Holy Spirit, wrote the scriptures I quoted you. Christ did say that the Holy Spirit would bring us into all Truth.

As I’ve said before we need to take into account the whole counsel of scripture to determine the final Word Christ gave us on salvation.

Jesus said many things, but in regards to salvation, he was very explicit. The gospel of John, Chapters 3 and 4 specifically, recorded this.

Salvation is by faith alone in the Son of God, the One He has sent.

The ultimate “child” of wisdom is to have faith in the One the Father sent, as Jesus told the people who asked Him how to be saved.

I am by no means saying that Christians will not have works. But we are birthed by the Spirit through faith alone.

sonbeam

No, Sonbeam, the intention of your post was not misunderstood, you were wanting to nail down the prescriptive steps for Salvation, which I did not argue against. What I said was what Jesus spoke about in your reference to John 3-4, that if our deeds do not witness to the decision of our hearts, then we will be like the Goats in the Matthew 25:31-46 parable of the separation of the sheep from the goats. A parable about the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous of those who call Jesus Lord.

Let me quote a portion of it from the NET bible: -

John 3:16-21: - 16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God.

This is the basis of my statement that we need to put legs on that which we believe so that our hearts are on display and that People can see Christ working through our lives.

This statement is what I believe you are arguing against as it smacks against your understanding that if you believe then you will automatically without the need for deeds to back up your claim of believing in Him Whom He has sent.

I am secure in my beliefs of the process of God's salvation for me and I know that my deeds, done mostly in secret, will be evident at the time of my judgement.

My prayer is that your deeds/works will also be evident at that time as well and that you will not approach the Throne with your prescriptive intellectual steps of calling Jesus Lord, Lord , just like the Goats will do, with their Grecian understanding of God, that if they simply believe, then they too will be saved, without going through the refurbishment process to fully gain the promised prize.

The outside of our cup can be pristinely clean and white, but the inside can still be filthy and unclean. We need to refurbish all of the cup that we have on display so that the hidden can also be seen through our deeds.

Shalom

[Jericho]

Yes, but the offer was conditional. Here is the condition.

Exodus 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Sorry for the late reply. What you are referring to is the Mosaic covenant in which Israel's continual possession of the Promised Land was conditional, which is why they lost control of it. But the prophecies concerning Israel's future role is not part of the Mosaic covenant. In fact, prophecies are not dependent on covenants. If God says something is going to happen then it will happen. God said they would become a nation again in one day and it happened. Romans 11 makes it clear Israel's rejection is not final.

In Paul's allegory, the Root is Jesus Christ, not Israel. Paul describes both gentiles and Jews as being "branches."

That's debatable. Romans 11:17 says "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree." The root is connected with the olive tree and the olive tree represents Israel (Jer 11:16-17, Hos 14:6).

[Jay Ross]

Yes, but the offer was conditional. Here is the condition.

Exodus 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Sorry for the late reply. What you are referring to is the Mosaic covenant in which Israel's continual possession of the Promised Land was conditional, which is why they lost control of it. But the prophecies concerning Israel's future role is not part of the Mosaic covenant. In fact, prophecies are not dependent on covenants. If God says something is going to happen then it will happen. God said they would become a nation again in one day and it happened. Romans 11 makes it clear Israel's rejection is not final.

In Paul's allegory, the Root is Jesus Christ, not Israel. Paul describes both gentiles and Jews as being "branches."

That's debatable. Romans 11:17 says "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree." The root is connected with the olive tree and the olive tree represents Israel (Jer 11:16-17, Hos 14:6).

Jericho,

you are right that God's promise of possession of the portion of the earth that Abraham walked and saw, was for a finite period of time, and the land possession of land spoken about in Gen 15:17-21 was a sign for Abraham's descendants that the Promise of the whole earth to Abraham's descendants in the distant future could be taken to the bank because they were given possession for a time during King Solomon's reign, all of the land promised in Gen 15:17-21. Sadly, the understanding that developed within Israel that they would have possession of the Promised for all time, but God knew that the visitation of their iniquities would cost them possession in any land and that they would remain scattered throughout the whole earth until the end of the Age of the Ages after which the Saint, all those who were and were grafted in to being Abraham's descendants would inherit all the earth under the heavens. Daniel 7:27.

Israel has not been replaced by the Gentile Christians, as many believe, but they will be redeemed to show God's Grace given to the Jews which is available for all people on the earth.

The Pretrib theology messes all our understanding up, and misleads us into believing something that is not of God.

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Jay,

I need to ask you a direct question about the way to be saved.

Do you believe that salvation is by faith PLUS works?

I get that impression from your posts.


sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Jericho,

Not to worry about the late reply. You'll be getting a late one from me.

We are in the process of moving, and are packing today and tomorrow.



sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Jay,

I need to ask you a direct question about the way to be saved.

Do you believe that salvation is by faith PLUS works?

I get that impression from your posts.


sonbeam

Is that not the point in the Parable of the separation of the Sheep from the Goats, where both had begun to call Jesus Lord, but the Sheep, developed a heart after God's heart and their deeds/"works" reflected this. Their deeds were not done to gain entry into "heaven," so to speak, but that they were the required course of action within the circumstances of the people they were rubbing shoulders with. If they saw a need, within the people around them, they met that need. They took up their cross and followed the example that God also displayed.

The Goats, on the other hand, only did "good" deeds/"works," if it gained them, in their minds, an advantage to get into heaven. They had a Grecian understanding of their relationship with God. They displayed their "Good Work," for God, to get noticed so that they could "get the prize" of a "free" entry ticket into heaven.

That is why I have been saying that Faith/Believing in Jesus is an important step in our Journey of relationship with God, but if the fruit of that Faith/Believing does not produce Good Fruit as a natural outcome of our Faith/Belief relationship with God, then our faith/belief has not grown into the maturity that God requires of us for the producing of Good fruit.

God's instruction for Abraham and Abraham's descendants was for him and his descendants to walk in God's desired earth's outcome. God's covenant outcome for Abraham was that they would inherit the whole earth. Sadly, the Promised Land became an "idol" for Abraham's descendants, just as the "temple" is today for modern Israel at the moment, as it is also for many Christians which is why the establishment of the Nation of Israel within the Land of Canaan has been a big deal for many people, but God is going to judge the hearts of the people of Israel when they repent of their Idolatrous sins and are gathered to Him, where they are scattered throughout the whole earthy. God undertaking to those that He gathers to Himself is that He will put them into/plant them in the "Soil of Israel," i.e. Christ, and will teach them about the religion of Israel which came down from Heaven as a "rock untouched by human hands" to grow into the highest mountain on all of the earth, and subsequently making every other "religion" on the earth insignificant for those searching for the one true God.

Isaiah 58 talks about the sacrifice that God requires from us all, and the chapter finishes with God's requirement to keep the final Sabbath Day for all of mankind Holy. The deeds required by God in this chapter are the same deeds that He will judge the Sheep and the Goats by.

In Luke 14 Jesus tell Israel that although they will want to build a temple in the future to reconnect with God, that they will not be able to complete the task of building the Temple because they will not have the means to do so. He then goes on to speak about the time of the judgement at Armageddon, and that the nation of Israel at that time will consider if they can overcome the king, leading the battle at Armageddon, and conclude that they cannot, and will seek out this Kings terms of Peace and commit to them.

The Judgement Battle at Armageddon occurs after the completion in time of the Heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God and His Hosts on the earth. As Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26, after the completion of the 2,300 years of the Heathen Gentiles prophesised trampling, that all of Israel will be saved.

The prescriptive steps for our salvation is not just limited to "Believing in He Whom has sent," but it also includes the producing of Good Fruit through our deeds as a demonstration of the compliance of our hearts to His terms of Salvation for our souls.

The above response can be considered to be long winded, but a simple response of "Yes," also does not cut it as it does not define the "deeds" that are required.

Saying Yes, to believing through faith that Jesus is the Son of God, does not cut it unless we renew our minds such that we are putting on the refurbished personhood that was prepared, for each person, that God intended us all to become through His redemptive works for all of mankind.

Shalom

Added: - I accept that exceptions can be argued, but the principle does not change.

[Exit40]

Rom 10:8-10 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God Bless

David

[Jay Ross]

Rom 10:8-10 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God Bless

David

David, while I appreciate your passage choices, in both cases when we take them out of their context in the broader passage, the writers intent is lost. The Roman passage is concerning the salvation of Israel and the surrounding text needs to be also considered as to actual context of the few verses you have quoted.

Likewise, with the Ephesians 2:8-9 passage, the next verse tells us the following: -

Ephesians 2:10: - 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works/deeds, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Going back to the Matthew 25:31-46 separation of the Sheep from the Goats, the sheep walked in the good deed/works which God had prepared before hand especially for the redeemed/saved, while the Goats did not walk in the good deeds/works that had been prepared for them to walk in.

God told Abraham to walk in His earth, the length and breath of it. We too are called to walk the length and breath of God's earth. That means that we also walk in the good deeds/works that He prepared for us to do. If we do not walk in God's earth doing His good deeds/works, then are we really saved as such or are we simply trying to just save our lives, through "grace," so that we can live. Christ said that those who try to save their lives will also die the second death.

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Jay said:
Saying Yes, to believing through faith that Jesus is the Son of God, does not cut it unless we renew our minds such that we are putting on the refurbished personhood that was prepared, for each person, that God intended us all to become through His redemptive works for all of mankind.

Thank you for your answer Jay.

So you believe salvation is by faith PLUs works.

I believe salvation is by faith alone.

Because if we examine the whole counsel of scripture, there are over 100 scriptures
that testify to this.

Too many to list here, but there are about 17 or so in the Gospel of John,
and about 23 in the book of Romans alone. Anyone can find them there.


God bless you


sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Sonbeam,

I was not being prescriptive as to claim that both belief and works are required as there are always exception to the generalised rule.

Yes one exception is that some will believe and not be able to demonstrate their faith/belief through works. I am sure that there are others to be found in the scriptures.

Belief in Christ and what He stands for is one part of the Salvation process were we are invited to enter into our inheritance, but the deeds/works that we perform will be used as a judgement tool to gauge how much we truly believed in Him. This part of the judgement of the deeds/works in the Parable of the Separation of the Sheep from the Goat "Disciples" seems to be a sticking point for you. It seems that you want to be only judged on your belief, without having to put legs on that belief through your demonstration of participating in the Deeds/works that have been prepared for us to do from the beginning of time by God.

Jesus said that if we do not acknowledge Him then He will not acknowledge us. This acknowledgement is a deed/work that we are required to participate in.

It seems to me that we will have to be gracious to each other and let the matter go and Let Christ base His Judgement on what the scriptures tell us we should do in this matter.

Not saying that you or I is more right or wrong than the other.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Hi Sonbeam,

After reading your conversation with Jay, I think you are missing what Jay is saying.

My perception of what Jay is putting forth is:
Our good works are the evidence we are saved, not "will be saved"; but, already saved, for good deeds now come forth from our hearts, no longer evil deeds; these good deeds are the evidence we have been saved. The lack of good works is not evidence we have not been saved, for, it may be evidence of lack of maturity, not necessarily lack of salvation.

Assuming I am correctly understanding what Jay is putting forth, then I agree with him.
Jay, If I am presenting your view incorrectly, please correct what I perceive in your statements.

Thanks,

Keith

[Exit40]

David, while I appreciate your passage choices, in both cases when we take them out of their context in the broader passage, the writers intent is lost. The Roman passage is concerning the salvation of Israel and the surrounding text needs to be also considered as to actual context of the few verses you have quoted.

Likewise, with the Ephesians 2:8-9 passage, the next verse tells us the following: -

Ephesians 2:10: - 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works/deeds, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Shalom

Jay, there is no wiggle room in the verses I quoted. By grace alone we are saved, by the Gift of Faith. A 'work', if you want to call it that, is confessing our Lord Jesus. This is our actual expression, confession if you will, of our Gift of Faith. The good 'works' we are to do prepared for us in advance is also our expression of our belief, and Faith. We actually don't 'do' them, as much as we participate in them, the Actual Will of God, for us to do openly, to our heartfelt Joy. I don't see anywhere we are to walk the earth as Abraham did. The physical land of Israel was his to walk, ours will be on, or in, the New Earth. We are Pilgrims here, this place is not ours.

God Bless You

David

[Sonbeam]

David, while I appreciate your passage choices, in both cases when we take them out of their context in the broader passage, the writers intent is lost. The Roman passage is concerning the salvation of Israel and the surrounding text needs to be also considered as to actual context of the few verses you have quoted.

Likewise, with the Ephesians 2:8-9 passage, the next verse tells us the following: -

Ephesians 2:10: - 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works/deeds, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Shalom

Jay, there is no wiggle room in the verses I quoted. By grace alone we are saved, by the Gift of Faith. A 'work', if you want to call it that, is confessing our Lord Jesus. This is our actual expression, confession if you will, of our Gift of Faith. The good 'works' we are to do prepared for us in advance is also our expression of our belief, and Faith. We actually don't 'do' them, as much as we participate in them, the Actual Will of God, for us to do openly, to our heartfelt Joy. I don't see anywhere we are to walk the earth as Abraham did. The physical land of Israel was his to walk, ours will be on, or in, the New Earth. We are Pilgrims here, this place is not ours.

God Bless You

David

You got it David. Great testimony!





sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

After reading your conversation with Jay, I think you are missing what Jay is saying.

My perception of what Jay is putting forth is:
Our good works are the evidence we are saved, not "will be saved"; but, already saved, for good deeds now come forth from our hearts, no longer evil deeds; these good deeds are the evidence we have been saved. The lack of good works is not evidence we have not been saved, for, it may be evidence of lack of maturity, not necessarily lack of salvation.

Assuming I am correctly understanding what Jay is putting forth, then I agree with him.
Jay, If I am presenting your view incorrectly, please correct what I perceive in your statements.

Thanks,

Keith

Hi Keith,

Who needs to see the EVIDENCE ("good deeds") that we are saved?

Certainly not God! Who saved us when He gifted us with faith to believe in the Son of God
and birthed us in the Spirit then.

And certainly not unbelievers.

They will only be saved by hearing and believing in the Gospel, and not by seeing our "good works."

Romans 1:16 16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Sonebeam,

Our behavior is the evidence of our salvation.

It is about "cause and effect".
Salvation results in a change in behavior.
It is the evidence we have been set free from enslavement to sin.

So which comes first? Salvation, or, change in behavior?
Salvation comes first, our change of behavior is the result of our salvation.

It is about cause and effect.

This is why Jay is not saying we earn salvation, but, is instead saying, repentance, a change in behavior, demonstrates we have experienced being set free from enslavement to sin.

Those who think we earn salvation through works have it backwards.
We do not do good works to earn salvation. We do good works because we have salvation.

This is the point of James 2:18
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Faith results in works. It is a cause and effect relationship.

Keith

[Jay Ross]

Keith,

Your understanding of what I have been posting is spot on. The Goats have a Grecian understanding of "Good Deeds," and within the Grecian understanding of Good Deeds, is that the person we do the Good Deed For, is that that person owes then a good deed in return. Look at the world around us, If I help you with a task to completion, the Grecian understanding is that you owe me a favour in return. There is a belief and expectation on my part that is imposes on you by me in that you will return the favour/deed/work for my good deed to you.

Many "Christians" today believe that their saying the "Sinner's Prayer" is all that is necessary to receive their eventual inheritance of the whole refurbished earth which was what was initially promised to Abraham as it was also Promised to Christians today if we, as told within the Parable of the Separation of the Sheep and the Goats, is that the final separation of those who call Jesus, "Lord" is the judgement of the fruit, i.e. deeds, that they willingly do without any expectation of the security of gaining entry into heaven.

The sheep renewed their minds and in doing so they put on the refurnished personhood that God had for them from the beginning of time and entered into taking up their cross daily, being a good neighbour to those around them.

The image of a sheep is that they follow after their master and feed on the good pasture of the field, whereas Goats on the other hand, do not follow their master, they have to be herded, and go where they want to go, feeding off the rocky ground and steep hill sides.

We are required to change our fallen minds by our persistence of renewing it and as we renew our minds, so we put on the personhood of becoming one of God's saints, one of the elect.

One of the things is that God brings trials and hardship along the way to refine us as we chose to always turn towards Him within our trials and hardships and seek Him and His Grace towards us. It is always our response toward Him within our circumstances that matters to God which defines our relationship with God.

Goats are very prescriptive people, only doing what is necessary in their minds to gain the "idol" that they have made of salvation and its reward(s).

Keith, I do not have to prove myself to anyone other than God and His workmanship in and through me will be enough when the time comes to determine if I am a sheep or a goat with respect to my salvation response.

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Sonebeam,

Our behavior is the evidence of our salvation.

This is the point of James 2:18
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Faith results in works. It is a cause and effect relationship.

Keith

Hi Keith,

You did not address my comments on who needs to see THE EVIDENCE of our changed behavior, “good works.” so I
assume that you agree with what I said. Do you?

sonbeam: Who needs to see the EVIDENCE ("good deeds") that we are saved?

Certainly not God! Who saved us when He gifted us with faith to believe in the Son of God
and birthed us in the Spirit then.

And certainly not unbelievers.

They will only be saved by hearing and believing in the Gospel, and not by seeing our "good works."

By your comments though and scripture, now you say the EVIDENCE needs to be seen by other believers in order for them to judge that we have faith and are “saved.”

In other words, we need to seek JUSTIFICATION from each other. If we do not exhibit works, we must not have faith so we are not “saved.”

Have you ever asked any believer to show you their works so you can be satisfied they are “saved”? Or have you ever been asked to do that for the same reason?

There’s a lot more on your post that I’d like to address Keith, and I wrote the word “saved” in quotes for a reason that I will explain later.

But right now we still have a lot to do to get settled in our new place. There are unopened boxes all around.

sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Hey Sonbeam, hope you like your new place.

You wrote ...

Hi Keith,

You did not address my comments on who needs to see THE EVIDENCE of our changed behavior, “good works.” so I
assume that you agree with what I said. Do you?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

The above scripture talks about people who will not inherit the kingdom of God and that those people can be identified by their behavior. Then it says "Such were some of you". Which means, there are believers who once behaved in an unrighteous manner, and their behavior indicated they would not inherit the kingdom of God. Their ceasing of unrighteous behavior removed them from being members of the groups of people whose behavior indicates they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

If we believers did not need to have this knowledge about how being saved results in us changing our behavior from the unrighteous behavior of the groups of people who would not inherit the Kingdom of God, to righteous behavior, indicating we are no longer a part of the groups who will not inherit the kingdom of God, Why. then did God choose to provide this information to us by placing it in a book designed specifically for we believers?

While you may not need such information, God provided it for we believers
and I happen to be one of the believers who needs this knowledge.

Have a blessed one Sonbeam. Hope the move is great and your new life is blessed.

Keith

[Sonbeam]

Hi Keith,

Thank you for your kind words brother. Almost done unpacking.

Regarding your question:

Why. then did God choose to provide this information to us by placing it in a book designed specifically for we believers?

Currently, It is usually believed and taught that the NT epistles were written for believers only because the authors usually addressed them to the saints.

However, the writers of the epistles, just like church pastors of today when they preach a sermon, did not know who would have been saved and who wouldn’t have when those letters were read to congregations.

Therefore, they usually inserted some form of the gospel like Paul did when he listed the salvation process in the
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 passage you cited. ( More on that next. )


This is why I believe the bible is definitely written for all men. Anyone can find the Word of God for salvation there.

Taking this into account, we do not have to believe that every warning, admonishment, etc., is meant for us as children of God.

But if we do, and this makes us unsure of our status in the kingdom of God, then we ask the Holy Spirit for His witness that we are His so that we may enter into His rest.

Rom 8:16

 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Hi Keith,

First so that you know where I’m coming from, I’ll be using the words “man/men/nonbeliever” to identify the sons of Adam, and the words “believers/saints” to identify the children of God because I believe Paul mentions both {rather then just believers} in the 1 Cor 6:9-11 passage you cited.

This way we can keep in mind that there are two generations and two distinct identities that Paul is speaking of here.

And later I will add verses 12 and 13 which shed more light on it.

1 Cor 6:9-10

9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

In the above verses, Paul gave his readers an identity list from which flow many of the deeds of the sinful nature that all men (all of us at one time) inherited from Adam.

But Paul knew that when Christ on the Cross paid for all of men’s sins (past, present, and future), He had essentially nullified the power of the Adamic sinful nature to ever condemn men again.

Romans 3:22 . . . . . .There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 
23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 

24.  and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 

25  God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,  through the shedding of his blood—

So why did Paul bring up “sinful” behavior that Christ had already paid for and cleansed all men from on the Cross?

For one thing Paul knew this about all men:

Rom 5:16
Romans Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

And Paul knew this about the saints:

Rom 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.

This is rather long so I'll stop here for now. Hope nobody's eyes will glaze over as mine do when I read a long post (including this one.)

Any thoughts anybody on why Paul brought up the Law?


sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Rom 5:16
Romans Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

And Paul knew these about the saints:

Rom 8:1-2 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.

<snip>

Any thoughts anybody for why Paul brought up the Law?


sonbeam

Hello sonbeam,

Was not the law on sin and death first given in Genesis 2:17?

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Jay

Hello sonbeam,

Was not the law on sin and death first given in Genesis 2:17?

Shalom

Hi Jay,

Yes, the law was given in Gen 2:17. This was the first Law covenant that God made with man.

It was a global covenant that affected all men when Adam broke it.

Rom Chap 5

16.  Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 

18  Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous
act resulted in justification and life for all people.


The above verses show that Christ came to take on the penalty/death incurred by Adam and his offspring (all men) for their sins under the first Law covenant.


The second Law covenant was not global. God made it with the Jews only, and it only affected them when they broke it.


sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

Yes, the law was given in Gen 2:17. This was the first Law covenant that God made with man.

It was a global covenant that affected all men when Adam broke it.

FWIW...I do not see that verse as a covenant. I see it as a prophetic warning as was God's pattern to these:

Gen. 2:16-17 to Adam
Gen. 3:16 to Eve
Gen. 4:7 to Cain
Gen. 31:29 to Laban
Gen. 6:13-14 to Noah
1 Sam. 8:10-11 to Samuel re: consequences of a king
Matt. 2:12 to the Magi
Mark 8:30 to the disciples
Matt 2:22 to Joseph
Heb. 11:7 to Noah

[Sonbeam]

Hi Abiding,

I' m aware that the word covenant is not there. But the elements of a covenant are there. One law and one expressed punishment for breaking that law.

And obviously, continuing to walk in the garden and fellowship with God was the alternative if Adam hadn't broken the
law.

Good to see you joining us in this discussion.


sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

I' m aware that the word covenant is not there. But the elements of a covenant are there. One law and one expressed punishment for breaking that law.

Hi Sonbeam

In my search for the word "covenant" using E-Sword, I find the word is explicity used in 295 verses. That clearly defines the places where God, Himself used the word to individuals/people.

And obviously, continuing to walk in the garden and fellowship with God was the alternative if Adam hadn't broken the law.

That seems to be more of an "assumption" than a fact. God warned Adam of this consequence before Eve was created. She is nowhere in scripture described as guilty of anything other than being "deceived." And would you agree that no one in scripture "intentionally" gets deceived? In fact, God specifically speaks of sins committed "unintentionally." Jesus ask for forgiveness for those who don't know what they are going and Paul in 1 Tim. 1:13 says he acted in ignorance.

Thanks for the welcome! Good to join in now and then....

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Yes, the law was given in Gen 2:17. This was the first Law covenant that God made with man.

<snip>

sonbeam

I am not sure that I would agree with you that Genesis 2:17 is a covenantal law, but rather a law of consequences, in that if a person was to repent of their "sins" and do what is right in the eye of God, then they would then "live" after their repentance of their sins.

The "Laws on Salvation" have been in existence since the time of Adam and is very ancient. However, the required processes in correcting for our sins has been refreshed and is now modified from the processes in vogue with the original Salvation processes.

God looks at our hearts and judges our righteousness on what He finds stored up in our hearts.

God's promises to Abraham was that He was to walk within all of God's "Earth," that He would show him.

The problem is that many believe that we can take from the Tree of Life at will and so live, but God put a barrier between the Tree of Life and mankind, such that the Tree of Life is only available for us to eat by God's Grace if we qualify to do so in our hearts. Qualification of our hearts is not a prescriptive law that we can invoke to ensure that we will be acceptable to God. It requires us to perform the tasks that God has prepared for us to partake in so that the quality of our fruit is beyond question.

We do not replace God's Chosen Earthly Hosts, but rather, we are grafted into the same stump from which God's Hosts draws their nourishment from so that they can live.

The reality is that it is something that is so simple that we do not believe that it is possible, but with God all things are possible.

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Hi Keith

To get back to 1 Cor 6:9-11:

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Keith said:

The above scripture talks about people who will not inherit the kingdom of God and that those people can be identified by their behavior. Then it says "Such were some of you". Which means, there are believers who once behaved in an unrighteous manner, and their behavior indicated they would not inherit the kingdom of God. Their ceasing of unrighteous behavior removed them from being members of the groups of people whose behavior indicates they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

First, I believe you and I are in agreement about the following:

There are only two generations of people as far as the salvation process is concerned.

1, The Adamic generation that we were all born into, e.i., mankind/human beings/men.
All of us belonged to this generation at one time.

2. And the generation of Christ in which men, through belief in the Son, are born again of the Spirit and become children of God, i.e., saints.

Men go through this process only once.

Once a man has entered into this new state/this identity as a saint, his new identity will never change because of the Holy Spirit’s guarantee.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Paul mentions in vs 11 that “some” Corinthians had already gone through the salvation process,
*But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” They had become [u]saints.
[/u]

Therefore, Paul’s preceding phrase on the above, “And that is what “some of you were” has to mean the “some” previous identity was that of Adamic men/nonbelievers.

And not of believers/saints who supposedly had gone back and forth between the two identities, Adamic and Christian, because of bad/good behavior.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

I will comment next on verses 12 and 13 that follow the 1 Cor 6:9-11 verses because they add clarity to the passage.

sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Luke 14:25
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [f]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Keith previously wrote ...

While you may not need such information, God provided it for we believers
and I happen to be one of the believers who needs this knowledge.

Dear brother Sonbeam,

There are many, many, good brothers and sisters in Christ. Many who have been raised in Christians families and have been good people most of their lives. Many who were not raised in Christian families but were still good people. These believers, who have done good since there childhood, are wonderful people and evidence of their salvation is not as important to them as such evidence is to people like me. I will not tell you how many of the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 I have have overcome. Instead, I will tell you this. I have committed so many of those sins that I hated my life. Hated it. Hated it enough, that when I put a gun to my head when I was young, it was because I knew the world was a better place without people like me in it. The only reason I did not kill myself was because my life was no longer mine and I had no right to take it. I had to choose to trust God, hoping, that one day, I would be a different person and no longer hate myself. I became a Christian when I was eighteen (18). I was age fifty (50), before I had overcome enough of these sins to stop hating myself. That is over thirty two (32) years of struggles to overcome many of those things listed, not a few, many.

This is not about theory. This is about pragmatic believers like me, who have overcome those sins that made us hate who we once were. For us, it is not about going to Heaven when we die. If God chose to condemn me during the final judgement, I would deserve it. If He asked me to judge myself, to this day, I would condemn myself. For people like me, who hated ourselves because of what we once were, Salvation is not about going to Heaven when we die. It is about being able to live life, here and now, in this world, and not hating who we are so much, every single day, and continuously thinking we should just end our own lives, because, we know the world would be a better place without us in it.

Dear brother Sonbeam,
There are many, many, good Christians, who do not need the evidence of Salvation, the proof, provided through one's own good actions, that we are no longer the evil thing we once were. But, people like me, we need to see it. Lest we pass judgement on ourselves, and make the world a better place by ending our lives, thus, giving up on our hope of God transforming us into a person, who, instantiates good through our actions, making the world a better place, instead of a more evil place.

You know, Moses was a murderer before God called him to free his people.
I can't tell you how how much hope, God, taking a murderer and transforming him into a honored, Godly man, brings to me.

Love in Christ brother.

Keith

[Exit40]

I can't tell you how how much hope, God, taking a murderer and transforming him into a honored, Godly man, brings to me.

Love in Christ brother.

Keith

Same here Brother. Hope that one day I might actually touch someones life for the better.

God bless You

David

[keithareilly]

David,

You already do.

[Sonbeam]

Keith said
This is not about theory. This is about pragmatic believers like me, who have overcome those sins that made us hate who we once were. For us, it is not about going to Heaven when we die. If God chose to condemn me during the final judgement, I would deserve it. If He asked me to judge myself, to this day, I would condemn myself. For people like me, who hated ourselves because of what we once were, Salvation is not about going to Heaven when we die. It is about being able to live life, here and now, in this world, and not hating who we are so much, every single day, and continuously thinking we should just end our own lives, because, we know the world would be a better place without us in it.

Dear Brother Keith,

Thank you so much for giving all of us your honest testimony. That you have conquered many of the things you wrestled with that made you feel unworthy is a testimony to God’s power. For it is only through Him that we win the war we are in against our flesh.

And I agree with what you say about salvation not being only to be with Him for eternity, but about being able to live the abundant life here on this earth that our Lord spoke of.

And as I see it, the abundant life starts with being able to forgive ourselves for past sins (I'm still working on this) for He has taken those to the Cross. And entering into His rest because of this.

I wrestle with regrets myself at times, even though I realize I'm taking my own judgment as being more valid than His.

I’m sure that you and I and many others are not alone in feeling the way you do. Having attended several churches since I became a Christian, you have no idea how many believers I’ve run across who struggle with feelings of unworthiness.

As a matter of fact, I believe that the majority of believers feel that way. A member of our family does as a matter of fact. I try to encourage him every time I see him but to no effect that I can see. But I'm trusting His Word is doing the work.

But dear brother Keith, there are some good news for you, and me and all His children that wrestle with such feelings.

As a child of God, you are blameless before our Father right now and always will be until you meet Him face to face.

He loves you not because of what you do or don’t do, good or bad, but because of who you are. His unique creation, one of His elect.

And He rejoices over you with singing, as He does over all His children.

Should you or I or any of His children be concerned with living a moral life?

Absolutely! I am. But none us will ever be able to live a perfectly moral life.
Our Father knows it, even if we don’t.

This is why He is dealing with us under His love and grace. Praise His Name!!

May our Lord bless you and keep you.

sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

Salvation is not about going to Heaven when we die.

Hi Keith -

I'm not sure if you are aware of just how profound the aforementioned statement you made is. Your comment immediately leaped out into my heart as I read it.

In this very materialistic Fallen World we live in - I think a few Believers actually miss the point of Salvation. I don't want to paint a broad brush stroke and apply this to "many" Believers - but a few. For me Salvation has never been about inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven - or any of the rewards we may get when Christ Returns; and the Eternal Kingdom begins. It's been because in my heart I realize how wretched and extremely sinful I actually am. So I believe because of Jesus Christ - I have eternal life. I believe in Him. Not because of anything good I do - but because the Father gave me to Him. He called me as a child, and although I wrestled with the assurance of my Salvation for many years - I now know that I was sealed from the moment I believed.

Jesus Christ is the reason we have Eternal Life. He is the Only True God - and the Only God we will ever see. So when God called me, it was not because I am so special - but because He loves me. He saved me because He loved me; while I was yet a sinner. I don't know why He did - but He did. So, your statement spoke out to me. It's not about going to Heaven or living in mansions; walking on streets of gold. Very honestly, I know I will inherit these things - but as I live, I have come to the full knowledge of what Salvation is about - and it's because I have an Advocate with the Father, who has sealed me in Him before the foundation of the World. I have peace knowing that although I am very sinful; I can come to God in prayer and repentance - as I know I don't have a license to sin. This peace in knowing I have a Savior allows me to live my life more securely - so I am not afraid of death; the repercussions of sin; or what I may happen to me when I die.

Thank you for your comment brother.

[WOODHENOT3]

Salvation is not about going to Heaven when we die.

Hi Keith -

I'm not sure if you are aware of just how profound the aforementioned statement you made is. Your comment immediately leaped out into my heart as I read it.

In this very materialistic Fallen World we live in - I think a few Believers actually miss the point of Salvation. I don't want to paint a broad brush stroke and apply this to "many" Believers - but a few. For me Salvation has never been about inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven - or any of the rewards we may get when Christ Returns; and the Eternal Kingdom begins. It's been because in my heart I realize how wretched and extremely sinful I actually am. So I believe because of Jesus Christ - I have eternal life. I believe in Him. Not because of anything good I do - but because the Father gave me to Him. He called me as a child, and although I wrestled with the assurance of my Salvation for many years - I now know that I was sealed from the moment I believed.

Jesus Christ is the reason we have Eternal Life. He is the Only True God - and the Only God we will ever see. So when God called me, it was not because I am so special - but because He loves me. He saved me because He loved me; while I was yet a sinner. I don't know why He did - but He did. So, your statement spoke out to me. It's not about going to Heaven or living in mansions; walking on streets of gold. Very honestly, I know I will inherit these things - but as I live, I have come to the full knowledge of what Salvation is about - and it's because I have an Advocate with the Father, who has sealed me in Him before the foundation of the World. I have peace knowing that although I am very sinful; I can come to God in prayer and repentance - as I know I don't have a license to sin. This peace in knowing I have a Savior allows me to live my life more securely - so I am not afraid of death; the repercussions of sin; or what I may happen to me when I die.

Thank you for your comment brother.

God is Awesome!! I thank Him everyday for his Grace and Mercy!

[keithareilly]

Isaiah 38:12-17

12 Like a shepherd’s tent my house
has been pulled down and taken from me.
Like a weaver I have rolled up my life,
and he has cut me off from the loom;
day and night you made an end of me.
13 I waited patiently till dawn,
but like a lion he broke all my bones;
day and night you made an end of me.
14 I cried like a swift or thrush,
I moaned like a mourning dove.
My eyes grew weak as I looked to the heavens.
I am being threatened; Lord, come to my aid!”

15 But what can I say?
He has spoken to me, and he himself has done this.
I will walk humbly all my years
because of this anguish of my soul.
16 Lord, by such things people live;
and my spirit finds life in them too.
You restored me to health
and let me live.
17 Surely it was for my benefit
that I suffered such anguish.
In your love you kept me
from the pit of destruction;
you have put all my sins
behind your back.