"Replacement Theology"

[Sonbeam]

I saw the term "Replacement Theology" being brought up in another thread.

There is a good answer/commentary regarding that term here;


https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/%E ... %9D.97496/

So, the New Testament Church has not replaced anybody. “Replacement Theology” is a moot term that Dispensationalists have invented to falsify the position of those who believe God has only ever had one elect people. Dispensationalists invented the phrase as an intended slur against those that believe God’s chosen people are those alone that possess the Spirit of Christ (Old Testament and New Testament). Dispensationalists created this bogus term in an attempt to stem the growing rejection of Dispensationalism. That is why it is used pejoratively. However, this term does not fit. It is inappropriate, offensive and misleading.

While I agree with their main point, "God has only ever had one elect people," there is some slight backpedaling here and there. Like the use of words like "incorporation," "combining," "integration," etc.

The people of God have always been those human beings/people who believed the Word of God given to them at the time. And that started with Abel as recorded. But that was way before ethnicity became an issue with people and their doctrines.

Be blessed,

sonbeam

[Jericho]

While the term "Replacement theology" is relatively modern, the concept of it is real and has been around a lot longer than dispensationalism. It's been the reason for Jewish persecution down through the ages. Not sure why they want to pick on dispensationalists.

[Sonbeam]

Jericho,

While the concept of “Replacement theology” might have been around long before our time, the fact is that the term is a misnomer.

Those who use the term to accuse others of believing that the Church has replaced Israel in the salvation process, and those who believe that in fact the Church has replaced Israel both show a misunderstanding of the purpose of God’s covenant with national Israel.

Starting with Abel, there has only ever been one people of God, so the term “Replacement” is totally inappropriate. Heb Chap 11

sonbeam

[Jericho]

Sonbeam, I would consider myself a dispensationalist, but I don't believe the church has replaced Israel. I've also never heard "Replacement theology" used as a pejorative, but rather to describe a belief. It's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black because they use "dispensationalist" as a pejorative.

[Sonbeam]

Jericho,

I did a search on Dispensationalism tenets to find out exactly what they are. I found that
Theopedia has this on the four basic tenets on the Church and Israel:

https://www.theopedia.com/dispensationalism

Beliefs about the Church and Israel

In addition to these dispensations, the real theological significance can be seen in four basic tenets which underlie classic dispensational teaching. Dispensationalism maintains:

1. a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church, ^[1]^

2. a fundamental distinction between the Law and Grace, i.e. they are mutually exclusive ideas,

3. the view that the New Testament church is a parenthesis in God's plan which was not foreseen by the Old Testament, and

4. a distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, i.e. the rapture of the church at Christ's coming "in the air" (1 Thess. 4:17) precedes the "official" second coming (to the earth) by 7 years of tribulation.

These tenets are supposedly derived from the dispensationalists' insistence on "consistent literalism" in their hermeneutic, especially in the literal interpretation of OT prophecies regarding Israel.^

Since you said you would consider yourself a dispensationalist, is the above what you believe, more or less?

According to Theopedia, there are many different forms of Dispensationalism.

sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

The people of God have always been those human beings/people who believed the Word of God

Those who use the term to accuse others of believing that the Church has replaced Israel in the salvation process, and those who believe that in fact the Church has replaced Israel both show a misunderstanding of the purpose of God’s covenant with national Israel.

there has only ever been one people of God, so the term “Replacement” is totally inappropriate.

"God has only ever had one elect people"

Excellent Sonbeam!

[mark s]

For me the key to "replacement theology" is in this . . .

God made promises to ancient Israel, which He will fulfill quite apart from the gentiles, and the New Testament church.

If we are to say that God has rejected Israel as an ethnic group to whom God made promises, and now those promises will be fulfilled in the "true" people of God, the faithful of today, or all the faithful of all time, then ancient ethnic Israel is being replaced by a Jew/gentile group, and it's promises moved over to a new people.

Where I find one disproof of this idea is in the land promises. The 12 tribes will receive 12 plots of ground in the kingdom age.

Much love!

[mark s]

Beliefs about the Church and Israel

In addition to these dispensations, the real theological significance can be seen in four basic tenets which underlie classic dispensational teaching. Dispensationalism maintains:

1. a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church, ^[1]^

2. a fundamental distinction between the Law and Grace, i.e. they are mutually exclusive ideas,

3. the view that the New Testament church is a parenthesis in God's plan which was not foreseen by the Old Testament, and

4. a distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, i.e. the rapture of the church at Christ's coming "in the air" (1 Thess. 4:17) precedes the "official" second coming (to the earth) by 7 years of tribulation.

These tenets are supposedly derived from the dispensationalists' insistence on "consistent literalism" in their hermeneutic, especially in the literal interpretation of OT prophecies regarding Israel.^

I consider myself dispensational in my views.

RE:

1. Israel will have a role and a destiny distinct from the gentiles at the end of this age, and during the millennial kingdom. I wouldn't characterize this as earthly Israel and the spiritual church, which I think was built on the idea that we were going to live in heaven forever. We will all live on the new earth I think.

2. While law and grace are different, all are saved by faith through grace. The law could not make one righteous, it could only convince you that you need mercy.

3. The NT church was a mystery. Not revealed.

4. Essentially correct.

Much love!

[Jericho]

Since you said you would consider yourself a dispensationalist, is the above what you believe, more or less?

Yes Sonbeam, and I agree with what mark said.

According to Theopedia, there are many different forms of Dispensationalism.

I'm not familiar with other forms of dispensationlism so I can't comment on that, but maybe they are lumping all dispensatonlists together.

[Ready1]

I would agree with mark s and Jericho.

[Jay Ross]

For me the key to "replacement theology" is in this . . .

God made promises to ancient Israel, which He will fulfill quite apart from the gentiles, and the New Testament church.

If we are to say that God has rejected Israel as an ethnic group to whom God made promises, and now those promises will be fulfilled in the "true" people of God, the faithful of today, or all the faithful of all time, then ancient ethnic Israel is being replaced by a Jew/gentile group, and it's promises moved over to a new people.

Where I find one disproof of this idea is in the land promises. The 12 tribes will receive 12 plots of ground in the kingdom age.

Much love!

Mark s, my understanding of the Kingdom Age is that it occurs during the Millennium Age and that the Israelites will still be scattered among the Nations all over the world. Ezekiel 47:13ff does speak of a division of a prescribed land among the Israelites with Joseph receiving 2 portions. Perhaps you may like to expand on the scriptures that confirms your understand in the land promises.

Shalom

[Mr Baldy]

God made promises to ancient Israel, which He will fulfill quite apart from the gentiles, and the New Testament church.

If we are to say that God has rejected Israel as an ethnic group to whom God made promises, and now those promises will be fulfilled in the "true" people of God, the faithful of today, or all the faithful of all time, then ancient ethnic Israel is being replaced by a Jew/gentile group, and it's promises moved over to a new people.

Respectfully, this appears to be contrary to Scripture:

Romans 9:1-8 - New American Standard Bible

9) I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2) that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3) For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4) who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6) But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7) nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8) That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 2:28-29 - New American Standard Bible

28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Ephesians 3:1-12 - New American Standard Bible


1) For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2) if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3) that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4) By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5) which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6) to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7) of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8) To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9) and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10) so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11) This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12) in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Romans 8:29-30 -New American Standard Bible


29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All Believers; having been predestined - would appear that the Gentiles were included in the overall plan from the foundation of the Universe.

[Sonbeam]

Thank you for your answers. It is good to know the belief system each of us is coming from when discussing any topic on this forum.

So it is my turn now.

But first let me say that I hope to keep my comments directed to the basic doctrines of dispensationalism I posted above starting with number 1. That way we each can give our comments/understanding/scriptures why we hold that
position/belief.

If we do this perhaps we can stay within topic, and not go off into something else, i.e., the rabbit trails.

My comments will be coming/be centered on the following:

I believe that the authoritative interpreter of the OT writings is Jesus Christ. He is the Word of God in the flesh.
He is the last/final Word that God sent to the world. Heb 1:1-4, Mat 17:1-6


So here is the first item to focus on:

1. a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church, ^[1]^

Why does dispensational doctrine spouse this? What did Jesus or the Holy Spirit say about this?

I realize that perhaps some of you do not believe that Jesus is the authoritative final interpreter of God's Word.




sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

I realize that perhaps some of you do not believe that Jesus is the authoritative final interpreter of God's Word.

And that is fine.

Hi Sonbeam -

I'm not sure if it's "fine" for those who don't believe Jesus is the Authoritative Final Interpreter of God's Word.

Jesus is the Word - He is God in Flesh. Therefore, without understanding that He is the Author and Finisher; Beginning and End; Alpha and Omega; and the following:

Colossians 1:15-18 - New American Standard Bible

15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

This is not to go down a "rabbit hole" - but to piggyback on the comment you made - in which the aforementioned passages of Scripture clearly reflect the Supremacy of Christ. If one cannot accept His Ultimate Authority, then I'm not sure proper comprehension of Scripture can be obtained.

[Jericho]

1. a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church, ^[1]^

Why does dispensational doctrine spouse this?

What does the bible have to say about it? If we take a literal interpretation of the bible then a) There are many OT prophecies specifically concerning earthly Israel, as you refer to it, and their future role, and b) From the tribulation and onward the focus shifts back to earthly Israel. Israel was always meant to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:6), and that role will be restored.

The gentiles were grafted into the root, but it hasn't replaced the root. As Romans 11:18 says "you do not support the root, but the root supports you." The Church had a definite beginning at Pentecost and it will have a definite end, I believe at the rapture the Church. The Church is then standing in the interim for earthy Israel.

[Sonbeam]

Hey Mr. B.

I'm in agreement with you on this.

The way I wrote that comment may lead others to think that believing that the Son of God is the ultimate
authoritative interpreter of OT writings is optional.

What I meant to say was that it was fine with me, in the sense that we cannot force anyone to realize/believe that this is absolutely necessary in order to interpret/understand what God meant to convey in OT writings.

Thank you. Will edit the remark.

[Sonbeam]

1. a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church, ^[1]^

Why does dispensational doctrine spouse this?

What does the bible have to say about it? If we take a literal interpretation of the bible then a) There are many OT prophecies specifically concerning earthly Israel, as you refer to it, and their future role, and b) From the tribulation and onward the focus shifts back to earthly Israel. Israel was always meant to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:6), and that role will be restored.

Yes, but the offer was conditional. Here is the condition.

Exodus 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Israel could never meet God's terms. As a result the curses came upon them. And the covenant became obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Jericho wrote: The gentiles were grafted into the root, but it hasn't replaced the root. As Romans 11:18 says "you do not support the root, but the root supports you."

In Paul's allegory, the Root is Jesus Christ, not Israel. Paul describes both gentiles and Jews as being "branches."

Rom 11:17-18
17. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

I consider Paul's allegory to have some verses that are problematic in regards to the salvation process. But a study on Rom 11 belongs on another thread IMO.

sonbeam

[Ready1]

Yes, but the offer was conditional. Here is the condition.

Exodus 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Israel could never meet God's terms. As a result the curses came upon them. And the covenant became obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

sonbeam

Please be aware Sonbeam, that your reference to the Sinai or Mosaic Covenant is indeed conditional. The fact is that men could not live up to the requirements of a Holy God, so Israel was unable to live up to what they agreed to. Because the requirement of the Mosaic law was incumbent upon all men, that is why Jesus had to come and die in my place. And yes, this covenant, which the children of Israel agreed to, had conditions of blessing for obedience, and conditions of discipline for disobedience.

But please go back a little to what God agreed to with Abraham in Genesis 15. God makes an unconditional agreement with Abraham. The only part that Abraham had in this agreement was the preparation which God requested that he make. But God made the unconditional agreement with Abraham while he was asleep. This unconditional agreement by God promised two things, 1) a land, and 2) a seed. The land portion describes specific area that has never been fully in the control of or in the hands of natural Israel. Furthermore, God promised that the seed of Abraham, through Issac, would be like the "stars of heaven", and yet scripture says that they were counted among the smallest of the tribes of the earth. And since God cannot lie, and since the terms of this covenant have not yet been fulfilled, then I have to conclude that God will yet fulfill it with Abraham's posterity in the future.

Your statement that "the covenant became obsolete" seems like an error. This covenant that God made with Moses was in effect until Jesus came; God in the flesh, to fulfill the righteous demands of the law. Jesus said,

Mat_5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat_5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

NOT obsolete, but rather fulfilled. Only obsolete because Jesus provided an new, and living way because He fulfilled the requirements of a covenant that no one else could ever hope to fulfill. And because of this, He is called the mediator of a new and improved covenant.

Heb 9:15 (NLT)  That is why He is the One who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

This New Covenant, which we have a part in, has not yet been fulfilled, but it will be. Please notice who it talks about.

Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 
Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 
Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 
Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 
Heb 8:12  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 
Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 

[Sonbeam]

Yes, but the offer was conditional. Here is the condition.

Exodus 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Israel could never meet God's terms. As a result the curses came upon them. And the covenant became obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

sonbeam

Please be aware Sonbeam, that your reference to the Sinai or Mosaic Covenant is indeed conditional. The fact is that men could not live up to the requirements of a Holy God, so Israel was unable to live up to what they agreed to. Because the requirement of the Mosaic law was incumbent upon all men, that is why Jesus had to come and die in my place

.

Hi R1,

There is a lot to address in your response, but let me start with the statement I highlighted above. I believe it is extremely important, since it is foundational in regards to the salvation process, to know very specifically why Jesus died on the Cross.

So would you explain further what you meant by the above comment?



sonbeam

[Exit40]

What does the bible have to say about it? If we take a literal interpretation of the bible then a) There are many OT prophecies specifically concerning earthly Israel, as you refer to it, and their future role, and b) From the tribulation and onward the focus shifts back to earthly Israel. Israel was always meant to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:6), and that role will be restored.

Yes, but the offer was conditional. Here is the condition.

Exodus 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Israel could never meet God's terms. As a result the curses came upon them. And the covenant became obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

This bears repeating...

Israel could never meet God's terms. As a result the curses came upon them. And the covenant became obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

We are now in the territory of the Daniel 9 Prophecy. Soon to disappear is the present curse, caused by unbelief in Christ. Three and a half years left to go, until National Israel accepts their Messiah, as Jesus Christ already is according to Prophecy and the Old Covenant, confirmed for the 70th week, the first half being Jesus Christ's Ministry. Not trying to derail this thread, but the inheritance of this cannot be over stated. The Book of Hebrews outlines this in many ways, easy to see if you believe the New Covenant is the Old Covenant confirmed.

God Bless

David

[Sonbeam]

What does the bible have to say about it? If we take a literal interpretation of the bible then a) There are many OT prophecies specifically concerning earthly Israel, as you refer to it, and their future role, and b) From the tribulation and onward the focus shifts back to earthly Israel. Israel was always meant to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:6), and that role will be restored.

Hi David,

I did not write the above. Jericho did.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

This bears repeating...

sonbeam wrote:
Israel could never meet God's terms. As a result the curses came upon them. And the covenant became obsolete.

sonbeam wrote: Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

We are now in the territory of the Daniel 9 Prophecy. Soon to disappear is the present curse, caused by unbelief in Christ. Three and a half years left to go, until National Israel accepts their Messiah, as Jesus Christ already is according to Prophecy and the Old Covenant, confirmed for the 70th week, the first half being Jesus Christ's Ministry. Not trying to derail this thread, but the inheritance of this cannot be over stated. The Book of Hebrews outlines this in many ways, easy to see if you believe the New Covenant is the Old Covenant confirmed.
God Bless

David

David,

Do you believe that the New Covenant is the Old Covenant confirmed? if so why?

In Heb 8:13, the author says the old covenant is obsolete, not confirmed.

The definition of obsolete is to cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new. And the author of Hebrews uses the phrase "New Covenant" five times in his book.


sonbeam

[Ready1]

Please be aware Sonbeam, that your reference to the Sinai or Mosaic Covenant is indeed conditional. The fact is that men could not live up to the requirements of a Holy God, so Israel was unable to live up to what they agreed to. Because the requirement of the Mosaic law was incumbent upon all men, that is why Jesus had to come and die in my place.

Hi R1,

There is a lot to address in your response, but let me start with the statement I highlighted above. I believe it is extremely important, since it is foundational in regards to the salvation process, to know very specifically why Jesus died on the Cross.

So would you explain further what you meant by the above comment?

Certainly Sonbeam.

What I mean by the phrase that you have highlighted, is that from the time that God has revealed his righteous standard to mankind through the Mosaic Law, that all men and women throughout the whole world have a responsibility to live the righteous life that the Law requires. Now we know that it is impossible to live righteous lives of which God can approve. But that makes no difference in our responsibility. The problem of humanity is, according to Ro 3:10, that "There is none righteous, no, not one:" That is also why I said that "that is why Jesus had to come and die in my place." I could not do what Jesus did for me.

The following scriptures would support this as well.

Act 13:38  Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man (Jesus) forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Act 13:39  and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

Rom 2:12  For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Rom 3:20  For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 5:20  Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Gal 3:11  Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12  But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."

[Jay Ross]

Hello,

Yes, the English word “new” is found five times in the Book of Hebrews, but the Greek Text words it is translated from do not all have the same understanding in the context of the Greek Text.

Let us consider the list of the five occurrences of the English word “new” in the Book of Hebrews: -

Heb 8:8: - 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new (G:2537 καινήν, i.e.refreshed/refurbished) covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah —

Heb 8:13: - 13 In that He says, "A new (G:2537 καινήν i.e. refreshed/refurbished) {covenant}," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

A better way of understanding this verse is: - He said, “In that the refreshed has made the former obsolete. Now, what has become obsolete and old, will now vanish.”

Heb 9:15: - 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new (G:3501 καινῆς i.e. refreshed/refurbished) covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first (G4413 πρώτῃ i.e. former) covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 10:20: - 20 by a new (G4372 πρόσφατον i.e. recently made) and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Heb 12:24: - 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new ( G:3501 νέας i.e. newest/younger) covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


It seems to me that the translation used above has the Bias of a “Brand New Covenant” embedded within it.

This fits like a glove the reinforcement of the replacement theology that denies that God intends to make like new again the Exodus 19 Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and Hi Possession among the Nations Covenant as recorded in Jeremiah 31 where God is promising to make like new again the covenant that they had previously rebelled against at Mt Sinai.

Is not the “Covenant” that Christ came to refurbish mentioned in Matthew 13:52 which has be in force since the days of Adam?

Shalom

[Mark F]

And along the lines of what started this, I find it equally amazing that people can read the Scripture and not see that God has chosen Israel to be His evangelists to the world, that He has made everlasting promises them. That they are not now, but will be again by His restoration, be the people though whom God will demonstrate His glory.

The Scripture does not reveal that Jesus will come to the Church's capitol city and rule and reign the earth from there, but that He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, David their King will be raised, people will come to the Temple and worship there.

The Bible clearly reveals God will restore Israel in the last days to be His people and Jerusalem His city that He will reign from, it is those who read Scripture and yet do not see that significance is what amazes me.

You can read the Scripture as you see fit, God allows you that by grace, as for me I am reading it not "literally" but reading it seriously, applying basic grammar rules as I would any literature recognizing allegory where it is used, literally where it is used, poetry where it is used, typography where it is used, and so on. I know God does not have feathers, I will not drink the milk from the breast of kings etc., but I do believe Israel will once again be the Nation that Jesus rules the world from and the Church will be with Him, where ever He goes.

[Exit40]

What does the bible have to say about it? If we take a literal interpretation of the bible then a) There are many OT prophecies specifically concerning earthly Israel, as you refer to it, and their future role, and b) From the tribulation and onward the focus shifts back to earthly Israel. Israel was always meant to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:6), and that role will be restored.

Hi David,

I did not write the above. Jericho did.

sonbeam

Oops ! Sorry sonbeam. The post window would not let me do three quotes so I made the adjustment incorrectly. Apologies.

Quote is from Jericho's post.

God Bless You

David

[Sonbeam]

Please be aware Sonbeam, that your reference to the Sinai or Mosaic Covenant is indeed conditional. The fact is that men could not live up to the requirements of a Holy God, so Israel was unable to live up to what they agreed to. Because the requirement of the Mosaic law was incumbent upon all men, that is why Jesus had to come and die in my place.

Hi R1,

There is a lot to address in your response, but let me start with the statement I highlighted above. I believe it is extremely important, since it is foundational in regards to the salvation process, to know very specifically why Jesus died on the Cross.

So would you explain further what you meant by the above comment?

Certainly Sonbeam.

What I mean by the phrase that you have highlighted, is that from the time that God has revealed his righteous standard to mankind through the Mosaic Law, that all men and women throughout the whole world have a responsibility to live the righteous life that the Law requires. Now we know that it is impossible to live righteous lives of which God can approve. But that makes no difference in our responsibility. The problem of humanity is, according to Ro 3:10, that "There is none righteous, no, not one:" That is also why I said that "that is why Jesus had to come and die in my place." I could not do what Jesus did for me.

Thank you R1.

Yes, no man can obtain righteousness/acceptance with God by keeping the Law. This is why God made available to mankind the New Covenant which Christ ratified on the Cross.

The Mosaic covenant was binding on Israel alone. Its laws did not apply to other nations (gentiles). The nation of Israel was the only nation bound to keep the Law. Rom 2:14

But it was freed from that requirement when the Mosaic covenant became obsolete. We have these Good News to proclaim to the nation of Israel!

Now under the New Covenant, there is only one requirement (law) that any human being must keep to obtain righteousness/acceptance before God.

That requirement is to believe in the One He has sent -- the Son of God.


sonbeam

[Exit40]

David,

Do you believe that the New Covenant is the Old Covenant confirmed? if so why?

In Heb 8:13, the author says the old covenant is obsolete, not confirmed.

The definition of obsolete is to cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new. And the author of Hebrews uses the phrase "New Covenant" five times in his book.


sonbeam

Hi sonbeam. Yes I do. Very simply, within the Old Covenant lies the New Covenant concealed. One must realize there is no way possible to be sin free according to the Law, thus the yearly and daily sacrifices, which do not allow for complete and total salvation. Rather the Law requires our death, the sacrifices just postpone that.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
But once and for all Christ made the perfect sacrifice

As the Law points to the need for our Savior Jesus Christ for our salvation, by God's Grace according to the Law, and the Prophets, Christ made the perfect sacrifice in our place, dying for us. His sacrifice confirms the Old Covenant requirements, thus fulfilling them and instituting the New Covenant of Grace through Faith upon His Resurrection, and making obsolete the ' requirements ' of the Old Covenant.

Heb 10:5-10 ¶ Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The whole of Hebrews 10 is a great explanation of this confirmation and establishing of the New Covenant, it''s meaning, and how we are to live.

Heb 10:16-18 ¶ This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,...

The Word of God, plain and simple.

God Bless You

David

[Sonbeam]

Hi Jay,


I checked on the verses you mentioned above:

Heb 8:8, Heb 8:13, and Heb 9:15 and according to Strong's G2537 which all three verses show

for the word "new" the definition is:

I.new

A.as respects form

I. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn

B.as respects substance

I. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of




The word "refurbished" that you cited means:

renovated or redecorated, especially of a building
rehabilitated, overhauled, etc.

I don't know where you got that word from Jay, but it certainly does not apply to the New Covenant.


sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

And along the lines of what started this, I find it equally amazing that people can read the Scripture and not see that God has chosen Israel to be His evangelists to the world,

Hi Mark F,

There was no command from God to Israel under the Mosaic Cov. to go out and evangelize the world as Christ did under the New Covenant:

Mat 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Instead God decreed that the Israelites were not only to be separate, but to utterly destroy all human life plus cattle, etc., of some non-Jewish/gentile nation.

Deu 12:2
Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods.

Deu 13:15
you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

Deu 20:17

Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.

And the Israelites did. Joshua Chap 8 and 11.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

You can read the Scripture as you see fit, God allows you that by grace,

Actually Mark F this is not true.

We have direct guidance from God as to how we are to read scripture. And that is by taking into account the last Word He sent with His Son. Christ is the authoritative interpreter of the OT writings. The OT writings are not the last revelation of the Word of God. Judaism takes it to be. Christians must not.

Matthew 17

The Transfiguration

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus6

Notice that Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the prophets) faded from sight and only Jesus remained.

God’s Final Word: His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word

sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

I checked on the verses you mentioned above:

Heb 8:8, Heb 8:13, and Heb 9:15 and according to Strong's G2537 which all three verses show

for the word "new" the definition is:

I.new

A.as respects form

I. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn

B.as respects substance

I. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

The word "refurbished" that you cited means:

renovated or redecorated, especially of a building
rehabilitated, overhauled, etc.

I don't know where you got that word from Jay, but it certainly does not apply to the New Covenant.

sonbeam

Hi Sunbeam,

I believe that for someone who believes in a brand new covenant, they do not get that G:2537 does not mean "brand new", but is more in keeping with "made like new". I can have a newer car, G:3501 or I can have a new with respect to ownership, a refreshed car, G:2537. but in being refreshed it may have also been refurbished with a newer motor to replace the older motor that had put a conrod through the side wall.

Now Jesus came to offer salvation to the Israelites 2,000 years ago, He did not come to offer them a refreshed Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession Among the Nations Covenant at that time because He knew that because the Israelite, i.e. the Tribe of Judah and Levites, at that time had not repented and stopped their continual idolatrous practices and that they would be visited by their iniquities for a period of around 2,000 years. When they come to understand their sins of idolatry against God and repent in our near future shortly after Nations are Judged at Armageddon for trampling the Sanctuary and Hosts of God, they will be redeemed and gain their salvation once more and then God will make like new again the Covenant that He had entered into with all of Israel at Mt Sinai where Israel had agreed to be God's Kingdom of priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations covenantal terms, but had within 40 days of Moses being up on the Mountain with God, rebelled and forced Aaron to make idols for them to worship.

During the Babylonian exile, God had given Judah and the Temple Worship, 490 times to offer up their yearly Sin Sacrifice and to end their continual sins, but they would not let go of their idolatrous worship, even within the Temple precincts. Then at the end of this 490 "solar" years of time as marked out by the sun, God set His plan in place to "make reconciliation for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy. This occurred in the 33rd year of the third age of Israel's existence, after the visitation of their iniquities had begun. God had sent Jesus to offer them their Salvation, just as He had done when He offered Salvation to Cain some 4,000 years previously.

Jesus made reference to this in Matthew 13:52 where he spoke of a refreshed Salvation Covenant being brought out by the owner of a Household which had been in place since the time of Adam.

Yes, the Salvation covenant's conditional clauses are found within the Covenants entered into with the Israelite nation at Mt. Sinai, but God's purposes were for the Salvation of all of mankind, not just those people who abided by the Covenants that God had established at Mt Sinai.

The sad thing is that we as a Christian whole have tended to focus on the Mt. Sinai Covenants and there tenants for Salvation and not on the simple tenants of the Salvation Covenant which was "refurbished" in part by Christ becoming our Salvation through His death on the cross, and made like new again nearly 2,000 years ago.

Yes, the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession Among the Nations Covenant will be made new again with the Nation of Israel in our near future, and those who are grafted into the same stump will become a part of this covenant and will play their role in the Salvation Harvest during the coming Summer season before the end will come.

In my mind, the New Covenant Theology is just a variation of the Replacement Theology.

Line by Line, Precept by Precept and we will all fall backwards and be snared.

Shalom

PS: - Sunbeam, when you refresh a house to be like new again, you also refurbish it, often with a "newer" Bathroom and Kitchen, so that it functions better as a home. Now the refurbished/refreshed house does not become a home to those who occupy it unless they acknowledge, accept and use the changes/refurbishments made. The House becomes like "new again" that we want to live in, the the footprint is generally still the same.

[Ready1]

Thank you R1.

Yes, no man can obtain righteousness/acceptance with God by keeping the Law. This is why God made available to mankind the New Covenant which Christ ratified on the Cross.

The Mosaic covenant was binding on Israel alone. Its laws did not apply to other nations (gentiles). The nation of Israel was the only nation bound to keep the Law. Rom 2:14

But it was freed from that requirement when the Mosaic covenant became obsolete. We have these Good News to proclaim to the nation of Israel!

Now under the New Covenant, there is only one requirement (law) that any human being must keep to obtain righteousness/acceptance before God.

That requirement is to believe in the One He has sent -- the Son of God.


sonbeam

If I am understanding you correctly, Sonbeam, when you say that the Mosaic covenant was binding upon Israel alone and its laws did not apply to the gentile nations, then you are saying that God had a different standard for the Gentiles than He did for the Jews. This brings up several questions that I am curious how you would respond to.

1) From the time of Moses, until now, by what standard did God judge the non-Jewish?

2) By what standard does God judge the non-believer today?

3) By what standard does God judge the believer today?

4) How is it possible that a righteous judge could have more than one standard? (Dual standard) Even on a national basis everyone recognizes that "What's good for the goose is good for the gander!"

Please be aware of the fact that I did NOT say that the law had been given to all men, but rather that the righteous standard of the Law was required of all men. That is the whole point of Romans 2. If a gentile who does not have the law, does by nature what the law requires, they establish the righteousness and correctness of the standard of the Law.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

[Sonbeam]

Ready1 said:
Please be aware of the fact that I did NOT say that the law had been given to all men, but rather that the righteous standard of the Law was required of all men. That is the whole point of Romans 2. If a gentile who does not have the law, does by nature what the law requires, they establish the righteousness and correctness of the standard of the Law.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Great questions R1.

But first, regarding Paul’s comments starting with Rom 1:18 through Rom 2, they need to be read within the context of Chap 3.

If we stop before we get to Chap 3, we get the distinct impression that Paul is saying all men (the Jews because they have it in writing, and the gentiles because of their consciences) must keep the Law in order to become righteous before God. At this point, we are all doomed!

However, in Rom Chap 3, Paul finally gives his readers some relief. He let’s us know that all l he meant to say was that:

10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

Why didn’t Paul say this from the very beginning? This is old news. Isaiah and the writers of the
Psalms had already told us about this several hundred years before Christ.

Anyway, Paul finally gives us the Gospel in Chap 3, and we are off the hook!

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

Your questions next R1.

sonbeam

[Ready1]

I'm having trouble deciphering whether you are agreeing with or refuting my statement. Maybe you haven't got there yet.

[Sonbeam]

Sorry Ready1, will try again.

Here’s what you said and gave Rom 2 as proof text.

Please be aware of the fact that I did NOT say that the law had been given to all men, but rather that the righteous standard of the Law was required of all men. That is the whole point of Romans 2. If a gentile who does not have the law, does by nature what the law requires, they establish the righteousness and correctness of the standard of the Law

.

About Romans 2, that chapter doesn’t establish that all men are required to keep the Law. And I commented on that already.

And here are your questions 1 and 2.

1) From the time of Moses, until now, by what standard did God judge the non-Jewish?

2) By what standard does God judge the non-believer today?

God has judged all men (Jews and Gentiles) for the purpose of salvation only once. When Adam sinned in the Garden. There will be a second judgment of all non-believers (Jews and gentiles) when Christ returns.

God made that first judgment official when Christ said:

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

Since then, from the moment God cast man from the garden, He has been dealing with man under Grace not Law.

How do we know this?

Well because starting with Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc., men have been saved by faith on the Word of God given to them at the time. Rom 4:13 and Heb Chap 11.

Rom 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Actually death reigned (meaning all men were still under the penalty of Death) from the time of Adam until the time of Christ. When in the fullness of time, God sent His son to die on the Cross in our place.


But what about the Law Covenant God made with the Israelites? More on that in next post.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Hi Ready1,

This is regarding the Mosaic Covenant and the role God assigned to it in the process of salvation.

First we have to acknowledge that at the time God made that covenant with the Israelites, they were already under the penalty of death (eternal separation from God).

God had already judged all men as deserving of death (complete separation from God).

Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

This is important for since the Jews were already under the death penalty, God could only impose an earthly temporary punishment if they broke His Law covenant, i.e., the Curses. Deut Chap 28

Likewise with the Blessings. because the Mosaic Cov. could not make provision for eternal salvation under the Law, the Blessings were also of an earthly temporary nature. Deut Chap 28

So what purpose/reasons did God have to make a covenant of Law with the Jews then?

a) to make very evident to all men, through a representative segment of mankind (the Israelites), the extent/magnitude of the sinful nature of all men. Gal 3:19, Rom 7:13

b) And therefore, the impossibility of man being able to attain righteousness/acceptance with God through the Law. Rom 3:28, Gal 3:11

c) As a prophetic tool to foreshadow Christ’s forthcoming redemptive ministry through the typology of the feasts. John 1:29, 1 Cor 5:7

d) As examples/warnings for believers through the things that happened to the Israelites 1 Cor 10:11

But there's more to be said on this. Will continue on next post.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Ready1,
Now to answer the comments you made here:

Ready1
If I am understanding you correctly, Sonbeam, when you say that the Mosaic covenant was binding upon Israel alone and its laws did not apply to the gentile nations, then you are saying that God had a different standard for the Gentiles than He did for the Jews. This brings up several questions that I am curious how you would respond to.

Your question:
4) How is it possible that a righteous judge could have more than one standard? (Dual standard) Even on a national basis everyone recognizes that "What's good for the goose is good for the gander!"

To be more specific in case my previous post didn’t get this point across:
No, God has never had a dual standard for judging men.

There have only been two covenants that God has used to carry out His salvation plan: the Law one in the garden, and the New Covenant ratified on the Cross.

Hence there are only two judgments that have a direct correlation within God’s process of salvation.

God has judged all men guilty once already when Adam sinned under the Law.

His second and final judgment of all men will be at the second Coming. This will be in regards to unbelief in the Son of God under the New Covenant.

All other covenants, other than the two I mentioned above, are not “directly operative” in the process of salvation.

By that I mean that God has mainly used them to illuminate, foreshadow, and further His revelation to man regarding His character and His way of salvation.

For instance, the Mosaic Covenant was used by God for the purpose/reasons I listed in the previous post.

As a matter of fact, God could have left this Covenant out of man’s history altogether, as He did for about 2,500 years (the time between Adam and Moses), and it would not have affected the salvation process.

Men were saved by God during that period, e, g, Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc., without having the knowledge of the biblical revelations that came much later through the Sinai covenant and the last Word God sent through His Son.

Yet, they were saved by faith in the Word of God given to them at the time.

Be blessed!


sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

And now Ready1,

To answer your question number 3. I saved the best for last because it’s all good news.

Ready1 said:

3) By what standard does God judge the believer today?

God is not judging the believer, a born again child of God, now or ever.

Why not?

Because under the New Covenant there is only one requirement for men to become a child of God: Belief “in the one he has sent.”

There are no other requirements/Laws under the New Covenant.

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Having met that requirement, the child of God can enter into complete rest in regards to his salvation.

Why?

Romans 4:15
because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

1 Corinthians 10:23

The Believer’s Freedom

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.

sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Believing in Him Whom He has sent, is easy to say and claim, but the fact is that we are going to be judged on how we work on our display of our beliefs. The Parable of the separation of the Sheep from the Goats comes readily to mind as a teaching on this.

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Hi Jay,

you said:
Believing in Him Whom He has sent, is easy to say and claim, but the fact is that we are going to be judged on how we work on our display of our beliefs.

Jesus was the One who did say, “believe in the One He has sent,” in reply to those who had asked Him specifically about works for God.

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Being under the works of the Law all their lives, it is understandable they would think there was something for them to do to obtain eternal life.

We have to believe that Jesus, knowing this, was being truthful in His direct reply by letting them know faith in Him was all that was needed.

But you more or less are saying that Jesus did not give the complete truth to those who asked Him about works because as you see it, He says otherwise in the parable of the sheep and goats. Is that right?

Jay: but the fact is that we are going to be judged on how we work on our display of our beliefs

.

While the first impression when we read this parable might be that (sheep) believers are judged by their works, the first thing Jesus says He will do is separate them from the (goats) nonbelievers.

Jesus does not list first the good the believers will have done, and then separate them from the goats.

He knows those that are His because He has set them apart before the foundation of the world. Before they did any of the works He’d prepared for them to do.

In interpreting this parable, we have to look at the whole counsel of God. There are too many scriptures that attest that salvation is by faith alone -- faith being a gift from God.

Here’s what Jesus said to Nicodemus:

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Eph 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 4:1 -3
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [u]
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

There’s too many other scriptures to list here that attest that salvation is by faith alone in the One God has sent.


sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Hello Sunbeam,

If we consider this scripture, it tells us that there are two judgements that all people must pass through: -

Ezekiel 34:17-24: - 17 "As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord God, 'Behold, I will judge between one sheep/{flock} and another, between the rams and the male goats. 18 'Is it too slight a thing for you that you should feed in the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or that you should drink of the clear waters, that you must foul the rest with your feet? 19 'As for My flock, they must eat what you tread down with your feet and drink what you foul with your feet!'"

20 Therefore, thus says the Lord God to them, "Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 "Because you push with side and with shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns until you have scattered them abroad, 22 therefore, I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another.

23 "Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. 24 "And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord have spoken.

The first judgement that I see is the separation of those that call Jesus Lord, i.e. those who believe in Him Whom God has sent, from those that do not call Jesus Lord, i.e. those who do not believe in Him Whom God has sent.

The second judgement is the separation of the rams from the male goats, which Jesus fleshed out with more details of the rod of Judgement who the people who call Jesus Lord, Lord, must pass under.

You have interpreted the Parable of the judgement of the Sheep and the Goats in this manner: -

Sunbeam: - While the first impression when we read this parable might be that (sheep) believers are judged by their works, the first thing Jesus says He will do is separate them from the (goats) nonbelievers.

which forces a very different outcome for the parable which is not supported by the context of the judgements made between the sheep and the Goats.

Both the sheep and the goats in this parable called Jesus, "Lord."

The Sheep in this parable had a heart after God's own heart and this can be seen in the "works" that the sheep did which reflected this. In other words, they not only renewed their minds, but they also put on their refurbished personhood that God intended them to have from the beginning of time.

However, the Goats in this parable did not have a heart after God's own heart and this can be seen in the "works" that the goats did not do, which reflected this. In other words, they only renewed their minds, but they did not put on the refurbished personhood that God intended them to have from the beginning of time.

When the Sheep and the Goats were judged they both asked the same basic question, "Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you? . . . ", and the Lord's response was very different to both.

To the Sheep He said that, "because you did it to the least of my brethren, you did it unto Me."

To the Goats He said that, "because you did not do it to the least of my brethren, you did not do it unto Me."

This is why I said in my previous post, "that we are going to be judged on how we work on our display of our beliefs."

Jesus also said in Luke 14:27: - "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

Bearing our cross is a form of work, it is displaying our beliefs to all the people around us.

Did not Jesus also say this: -

Matthew 7:21-23: - 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I often ask this question of people, "Are you prepared to die so that, what you believe in, can be established and maintained? I find that many people are not prepared to die for what they believe in or put themselves in a place where they risk dying.

Doing God's work in this world does put a person into harms way from others and they will rise up against us and even kill us because of Him Whom we believe in Who was sent by God to refurbish the Salvation process.

When the time for the separation of the Sheep from the Goats comes, which group will we, "labelled as Christians who call Jesus Lord," all belong in?

Shalom

Edited a typo and adding for clarification in what was written.

[Exit40]

Jay, what you have failed to speak of is why the judgement of those who Jesus says He never knew in their claim to be True Believers causes their separation. It is because they claim His Name in their works, but are doing them for their own benefit. Recall there is only one unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is what these so called believers are doing. True believers do the works that are prepared in advance for them to do, thus are within the Will of God, for which there is never any condemnation. Fake believers take it upon themselves to feign their works as if they are from God, and obviously they are not, resulting in their condemnation. They are already judged, right now, for boasting in their works apart from God's Will.

Those of us with a 'Heart for God' as you say are already judged as righteous. Why ? Because we are under the Grace of God, His gift to us who diligently seek Him out, that we may grow our Faith and participate in His Will. We can wonder if our works are of God, but we cannot fail in them because they are not of us, they are of God, and God cannot fail. We do not fail or succeed on our own, we simply participate in His works prepared for us. Yes, it is that simple. Asking which group we will be in suggests a fear of failure, or just plain fear. Never mind that friends, perfect Love casts out fear.

God Bless You

David

[Sonbeam]

Those of us with a 'Heart for God' as you say are already judged as righteous. Why ? Because we are under the Grace of God, His gift to us who diligently seek Him out, that we may grow our Faith and participate in His Will. We can wonder if our works are of God, but we cannot fail in them because they are not of us, they are of God, and God cannot fail. We do not fail or succeed on our own, we simply participate in His works prepared for us. Yes, it is that simple. Asking which group we will be in suggests a fear of failure, or just plain fear. Never mind that friends, perfect Love casts out fear.

Thank you David.

Yes! Our works are of God. So we cannot take any credit for them.

Eph 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Jer 9:24

24 But let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, who exercises loving devotion, justice and righteousness on the earth— for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Jay, what you have failed to speak of is why the judgement of those who Jesus says He never knew in their claim to be True Believers causes their separation. It is because they claim His Name in their works, but are doing them for their own benefit. Recall there is only one unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is what these so called believers are doing. True believers do the works that are prepared in advance for them to do, thus are within the Will of God, for which there is never any condemnation. Fake believers take it upon themselves to feign their works as if they are from God, and obviously they are not, resulting in their condemnation. They are already judged, right now, for boasting in their works apart from God's Will.

The Matt 7:21-23 verses are silent as to why Jesus rejected some of the people who call Him “Lord, Lord,” or who have done signs and wonders in “His Name,” or why He said that, “He did not know them.”

Did they, as God’s Children, vindicate their standing in God’s wisdom by the deeds that they engaged in?

Those of us with a 'Heart for God' as you say are already judged as righteous. Why ? Because we are under the Grace of God, His gift to us who diligently seek Him out, that we may grow our Faith and participate in His Will. We can wonder if our works are of God, but we cannot fail in them because they are not of us, they are of God, and God cannot fail. We do not fail or succeed on our own, we simply participate in His works prepared for us. Yes, it is that simple. Asking which group we will be in suggests a fear of failure, or just plain fear. Never mind that friends, perfect Love casts out fear.

David, it is the reason why we do the “works”/”deeds” that we do that vindicates the condition of our hearts.

When Jesus was being judged for eating and drinking with sinners in the eyes of the religious, he responded with this statement: -

“Wisdom is vindicated by the deeds of her Children.”

The deeds include the condition of our hearts and as to whether it has been circumcised.

It is one thing to pull a verse out of context to justify our position in Christ, but it is another thing to understand the context from which it was ripped.

Jeremiah 9:22-26: - 22 Speak, "Thus says the Lord:

'Even the carcasses of men shall fall as refuse on the open field,
Like cuttings after the harvester,
And no one shall gather them.'"

23 Thus says the Lord:

"Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
Let not the mighty man glory in his might,
Nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
24 But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,
That I am the Lord, exercising loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness
in the earth.
For in these I delight," says the Lord.

25 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "that I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised — 26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

What is God’s complaint in the above passage from Jeremiah? That the house of Israel, which we “Christians” claim to be grafted into, at that time had uncircumcised heart, because of their worship of Idols which Jeremiah expanded upon in the next chapter.

This leads me to wonder if, as “Christians,” we are also worshipping idols constructed within our minds?

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Jay,

With all due respect, I suggest you read the following passages very carefully and meditate on them by
the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:8-10

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 4:2,3

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

God bless you,

sonbeam

[Jay Ross]

Jay,

With all due respect, I suggest you read the following passages very carefully and meditate on them by
the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:8-10

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 4:2,3

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

God bless you,

sonbeam

Sonbeam, what I received from your post above is that I am wrong in your opinion and that I need the HS to come to your understanding as it is the only right understanding to have..

So be it, if that is the way you want to have a discussion.

Jesus also told us that those who work at saving their lives will lose it and the result is, according to the Parable of the Separation of the Sheep from the Goats, that they will die the second death.

Matthew 16:24-27: - Take Up the Cross and Follow Him

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works/deeds.

Do we all have a heart after God such that the wisdom we have gained is demonstrated by our deeds.

Shalom

[Exit40]

When Jesus was being judged for eating and drinking with sinners in the eyes of the religious, he responded with this statement: -

“Wisdom is vindicated by the deeds of her Children.”

The deeds include the condition of our hearts and as to whether it has been circumcised.

It is one thing to pull a verse out of context to justify our position in Christ, but it is another thing to understand the context from which it was ripped.


Shalom

Jay, I could not find this quote you presented in the Scriptures. Could you locate this for me ?

I am thinking if one rips a verse out of Scripture to justify one's position, one has already missed the context of the Scripture.

God Bless You

David

[Ready1]

Luke 7:35

(ASV)  And wisdom is justified of all her children.
(BBE)  But wisdom is judged to be right by all her children.
(ESV)  Yet wisdom is justified by all her children."
(Geneva)  But wisdome is iustified of all her children.
(GNB)  God's wisdom, however, is shown to be true by all who accept it."
(ISV)  Wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
(KJV)  But wisdom is justified of all her children.
(KJV+)  ButG2532 wisdomG4678 is justifiedG1344 ofG575 allG3956 herG848 children.G5043
(LITV)  But wisdom was justified from all of her children.
(MKJV)  But wisdom has been justified by all her children.
(NLT)  But wisdom is shown to be right by the lives of those who follow it. "
(RV)  And wisdom is justified of all her children.
(TLV)  Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”
(WEB)  Wisdom is justified by all her children.”
(Webster)  But wisdom is justified by all her children.
(YLT)  and the wisdom was justified from all her children.'