Romans 6:10-11

[mark s]

Romans 6:10-11 KJV

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I've been thinking about this part a lot lately.

Here are some other people's thoughts:

While He lived, Christ had undoubtedly relations to sin, though sin was foreign to His will and conscience (2 Corinthians 5:21); but after He died these relations ceased; sin could never make Him its victim again as at the Cross. Similarly while we lived (i.e., before we died with Christ), we also had relations to sin; and these relations likewise, different as they were from His, must cease with that death.

Expositor's Greek
there's a lot more at the link . . .

As the death of Christ is not only the expiation of guilt, but the death of sin itself in all who are vitally united to Him; so the resurrection of Christ is the resurrection of believers, not only to acceptance with God, but to newness of life (Ro 6:2-11). (3) In the light of these two truths, let all who name the name of Christ "examine themselves whether they be in the faith."

JFB

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
6:10 He died unto sin once. Once for all. It laid hands on him and slew him, but henceforth it has nought to do with him.
He liveth unto God. Here on earth his godly life was troubled by the contradiction of sinners, but now he lives in holy union with God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead, etc. So the Christian, buried and risen with Christ, must be like Christ in life, dead to sin, but living a godly life through Christ.

People's

Any thoughts to share?

Much love!
Mark

[Keeping Alert]

Romans 6:10 is a continuation of Romans 6:9 - Knowing... which is also found in verse 3 and 6... Paul in verse 10 wants us to know that Jesus died unto sin once and He will never die again. Death is a completed transaction by which we have once and for all passed into the resurrection life of Jesus Christ.

Jesus can never die again. When we died with Him to sin, we can never die to sin again.

Sanctification is not primarily a matter of striving to live holy, but of knowing that we are holy in Him.

This is the first principle in the process of sanctification. Deny this first principle of being holy in Christ and all eventual steps of sanctification and obedience is just another form of salvation by works.

The second principle then is found in Romans 6:11 - Reckon... Gr. logizomai... means to know something is true and then, moment by moment, day by day, consider it to be true. Knowing what has been accomplished for our justification, we continue to live as life we had already entered into the resurrection presence of our Lord.

We do not die daily (for there is no more dying with Christ) but we live daily unto the glory of God.

[mark s]

Hi KA,

I loved your post!

Something I find very thoughtworthy is your pointing out that we can never die to sin again. It's happened in such a way as to only be able to happen once.

Full effect within us has already been brought to pass.

Fantastic!

Here's another passage that caught my attention last night:

1 Corinthians 6:12-14 KJV

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

 

Much love!
Mark

[Keeping Alert]

Thanks Mark!

I think this truth (of it happening once and its full effect within us having been already brought to pass) continues to be taught by Paul in the continuation of Romans 6:10-11 into verses 12-13 and especially verse 13 where Paul apparently uses two different greek tenses for the word "yield"

in the words "Neither yield" (...unto.sin), the idea is that of continuous yielding. but the "yield" (unto God) is a once for all action.

Although we will yet sin, by yielding outselves to God we will never be caught in the trap of continuing in sin. Our life and all that we have will be given over to the One who has spiritually raised us from the dead.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

You guys are awesome!


RT

[mark s]

My pastor shared something with me this morning that got me thinking about this again.

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who found a pearl of great value, sold all he had, and purchased it.

That, and, Where a man's treasure is, there his heart is also.

Jesus has purchased us, paying great price. Guess where His heart is!

Much love!
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

My pastor shared something with me this morning that got me thinking about this again.

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who found a pearl of great value, sold all he had, and purchased it.

That, and, Where a man's treasure is, there his heart is also.

Jesus has purchased us, paying great price. Guess where His heart is!

Much love!
Mark

I have always seen the parables like this- we are the treasure hidden in the field, we are the pearl of great price. Jesus gave all to purchase us. To redeem us!

Thanks Mark!

[Jay Ross]

My pastor shared something with me this morning that got me thinking about this again.

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who found a pearl of great value, sold all he had, and purchased it.

That, and, Where a man's treasure is, there his heart is also.

Jesus has purchased us, paying great price. Guess where His heart is!

Much love!
Mark

I see these parables in a different light.

It is about what we are prepared to do to obtain/redeem the treasure hidden in the field that we once had, but lost sight of because we were tricked into wanting something else, to become God like because of a false premise.

Are we prepared to trade what is of little value for something of immense value?

Are we prepared to swap/trade a false religion for the mountains of Israel and what that represents?

Shalom

[mark s]

Are we prepared to trade what is of little value for something of immense value?

Hi Jay,

I think I'm asking if we are willing to let go of the false notion that we are still the old man, and will we embrace the new reality, we are now comletely new, holy, and righteous?

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Are we prepared to trade what is of little value for something of immense value?

Hi Jay,

I think I'm asking if we are willing to let go of the false notion that we are still the old man, and will we embrace the new reality, we are now comletely new, holy, and righteous?

Much love!
Mark

Have we both not said the same thing except in a very different way?

[mark s]

I wasn't sure what you meant by the mountains of Israel. But I did suspect that we were indeed saying the same things.

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

I wasn't sure what you meant by the mountains of Israel. But I did suspect that we were indeed saying the same things.

Much love!
Mark

Mark,

The "Mountains of Israel" is the way the prophets expressed God's intent to teach the Israelites about Himself and His Statutes. The expression is found in Daniel 2 and in Ezekiel 34. Sadly, because the translators and the scholars could not wrap their heads around the long timeframe that God intended to use to work out his covenantal promises and that the promised inheritance for the descendants of Abraham was the whole earth and not the small part of the earth which was described in Genesis 15:18-20 which was promised in a Solemn Covenant as a conformational covenant outside of the Abrahamic Covenant itself, where the promise of inheriting the whole earth was for a time still in our distant future when all of the Abrahamic covenantal promises would be finally fulfilled.

As such, we need to consider the context of the scriptural passages which have been used to imply that Israel must return to the Land of Canaan for God's promises to be worked out. This is not true and is a lie of Satan where the changing of the context of one or two words completely changes the way in which God's promises will be worked out.

Ezekiel 34:11-16: - 11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land/{soil}; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country/{earth}. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

Daniel 2:31-35, 44-45: - 31 "You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

. . . .

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."

Daniel described that when the Everlasting Kingdom was established, which will occur in our near future within a few years, that the rock of foundational truth that comes down out of heaven cut out of the Religion of God centred worship will become the highest mountain that will fill the whole earth. The mountain is the worship of God.

In the Exekiel 34:11-16 passage above, this same mountain is described as the "mountain of Israel."

In other words, God is intending to teach Israel about how they are to worship Him alone and the statutes that are a part of being in that relationship with Him where they are will be living when He gathers all of Israel to Himself in our near future, so that they will know how to be a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation and His Possession among the nations where they will still live until the time of the GWTRJ.

The church today should also be teaching about the Mountains of Israel but our understanding of what this means has been lost in part as we are not able to full encaptulate the understanding that God wants us to have.

We still have a great need to renew our minds and to put on the personhood that God intended us to have from the time of Adam and to put off that which is not of God.

Mark our understanding of the scriptures of the Lord has been made complicated by well meaning and devoted saints as they tried to express the complex language into our languages of today.

Shalom

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

If the true understanding is lost to the centuries that lie between use and the original speakers/writers, and translations lose the meanings, then how is it that anyone can understand?

But isn't what you're talking about more about variations in how words are used, and which understanding fits best?

Much love!
mark

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

If the true understanding is lost to the centuries that lie between use and the original speakers/writers, and translations lose the meanings, then how is it that anyone can understand?

But isn't what you're talking about more about variations in how words are used, and which understanding fits best?

Much love!
mark

People can search for the understanding. Where there is a variation in the meaning of the word used to convey the context of the original text into our translation texts, the understanding is often not the best fit as you have put it.

The task of coming to the right understanding is slow and tedious and is like thumping your head against the wall of hard heart people who see no reason to change their understanding. The resistance to change is like a mountain too hard to move or wash into the ocean. It can be done but it is very slow as you are only allowed to chip away at the portions of their mountain that the people let you chip at.

However, when the rock comes down out of heaven, the clay, i.e. the potter's clay illustration, in the statue will also be ground up into dust/chaff to be taken away by the wind.

Shalom

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

While I do engage in the most thourough study I'm capable of, even so, for me, understanding Scripture is a matter of faith, and I think that's true for everyone.

I remember one story from a pastor of mine, he had spent many hours studying and dissecting and analyzing and researching a particular verse, and at the end of it all had discovered a priceless gem from Scripture. He related how satisfying it was to be able to ferret these things out.

That Sunday, one of the congregants, naturally it would be the proverbial "little old blue haired lady", came to him, "Oh pastor! I just have to show you what I saw when I was doing my morning Bible reading yesterday!" And went straight to that verse, and shared the very thing he had discovered.

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

While I do engage in the most thourough study I'm capable of, even so, for me, understanding Scripture is a matter of faith, and I think that's true for everyone.

I remember one story from a pastor of mine, he had spent many hours studying and dissecting and analyzing and researching a particular verse, and at the end of it all had discovered a priceless gem from Scripture. He related how satisfying it was to be able to ferret these things out.

That Sunday, one of the congregants, naturally it would be the proverbial "little old blue haired lady", came to him, "Oh pastor! I just have to show you what I saw when I was doing my morning Bible reading yesterday!" And went straight to that verse, and shared the very thing he had discovered.

Much love!
Mark

Mark

I agree with you we must by faith read the scripture, particularly when we are lead to go outside of the "traditional" understanding, because, as I often experience, we will be called out and put down.

In the Ezekiel 34 passage, the difference in understanding that comes by just changing the context of two hebrew words does lead to a very different understanding.

God promises that He will nuture the Isrtaelies in Good soil when He gathers all of Israel to himself, like in the parable of the Sower where we can consider that the four places where the seed is scattered in the Sower parable lines up with the locations along the river in time, of the river of Life in the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy.

Likewise, the Kingdom of priests and a Holy Nation and His Possessions among the nations, covenant as recorded in Exodus 19 and soon to be renewed as recorded in Jeremiah 31:31ff in our near future, means that the nation of Israel must remain scattered among the nations on the earth. This covenantal undertaking of God with the nation of Israel cannot be fulfilled if the nation of Israel is to only live in the Land of Canaan during the last age, i.e. the Millennium age.

So God will will bring israel into a place where there is good soil for the seeds He scatters, in the field of Israel, so the seed can take root and grow so that the yield is a hundred fold, beyond measure.

This is the conflict that our traditional understandings bring for us.

Shalom

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

Yes, I think you've outlined our difference.

I see the prophecy as literal, and the parable as, well, a parable.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Here is another passage I'm meditating on:

1 Peter 5:5-7

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

To me being humble is to recognize and accept the truth about myself. I never could be enough at anything. But God is mighty, and if I stop with the self-reliance, I can look to Him in everything.

I can care for many things, but God cares for me.

To simply yield to God in the knowledge that there is no other option to me, is to place my life fully and completely in His hands, to me, another way of saying, Live unto God.

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Here is another passage I'm meditating on:

1 Peter 5:5-7

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

To me being humble is to recognize and accept the truth about myself. I never could be enough at anything. But God is mighty, and if I stop with the self-reliance, I can look to Him in everything.

I can care for many things, but God cares for me.

To simply yield to God in the knowledge that there is no other option to me, is to place my life fully and completely in His hands, to me, another way of saying, Live unto God.

Much love!
Mark

Yes Mark we all have to be humble and change, and, as a marketing manger would drum into me, that it is the most difficult thing that any person has to do in their lives, like changing our understanding, changing our habits, changing our traditions etc.. One of my life lessons that I have had to learn is that the faults that I see in others is because I have them in myself and it is easier to force another person to change rather than to change myself.

We both agree that we see manifestations of the four winds of heaven, i.e. the beasts, rising up out of the sea of humanity, that exhibit a particular characteristic of the respective beasts, but the difference between us is that I can see the spiritual controlling dynamic influence within the respective manifestations of the beast that people have/are willingly submitted too while it seem to me that you are not willing/able to see the influencing beasts that are causing the people to act in the manner that they do.

Now with respect to your post above. God wants us to be secure in who He is and to be confident to live our lives in that manner. Sadly, many people want to have their security in God, but will not change themselves by the renewing of their minds so that they can be secure in who God is and His promises to us all.

Within a marriage, if one of the partners is looking for and seeking security within that relationship, they will be disappointed and the marriage will spiral downwards out of control because their expectations will never be meet. But where the partners in a marriage are secure in the love of the other partner, that relationship will flourish and deepen as they grow in their respective understandings irrespective of the circumstances that their marriage finds itself in.

I am secure in my relationship with God and live out my life being secure, that I am in a wholesome and wherever possible in a righteous relationship, with God. Does that mean that I will measure up all of the time? Certainly not. Does God correct me when I miss the mark? ( ) He certainly does. Do I back track and correct my mistakes? I certainly do.

Do I submit to my elders in Christ? I certainly do. However, where we only see the words that others use on this forum, our ability to gauge the heart condition and maturity of the other person is much more difficult to do than in a face to face interaction with them. My prayer for us all is that Christ is drawing us all into a closer relationship with God in maturity and understanding in all Godly things.

Shalom

[mark s]

Yes Mark we all have to be humble and change, and, as a marketing manger would drum into me, that it is the most difficult thing that any person has to do in their lives, like changing our understanding, changing our habits, changing our traditions etc.. One of my life lessons that I have had to learn is that the faults that I see in others is because I have them in myself and it is easier to force another person to change rather than to change myself.

Hi Jay,

I see humility as a choice based on obeying God's Word. It's not difficult for me in the same way as many things, just not normal. Once I hold that thought in mind - mine is not a might hand - then the rest flows.

I rest in God, letting Him care for me, since I can't anyway.

We both agree that we see manifestations of the four winds of heaven, i.e. the beasts, rising up out of the sea of humanity, that exhibit a particular characteristic of the respective beasts,

There may be somewhere you misunderstand me. These sound more like your words than mine. I don't think of it that way.

I see these beasts not as fallen angels permeating throughout humanity, rather, that they are kings and empires upon the earth.

but the difference between us is that I can see the spiritual controlling dynamic influence within the respective manifestations of the beast that people have/are willingly submitted too while it seem to me that you are not willing/able to see the influencing beasts that are causing the people to act in the manner that they do.

I think people act the way they do for a variety of reasons. There is the appeal of the flesh. There is the appeal of the world. There is our sense of entitlement. And there is the manipulations of the "prince of the power of the air", not identified, but I think this is the devil.

Now with respect to your post above. God wants us to be secure in who He is and to be confident to live our lives in that manner. Sadly, many people want to have their security in God, but will not change themselves by the renewing of their minds so that they can be secure in who God is and His promises to us all.

To me this is all one.

To commit yourself to God for safety is a renewing of the mind, and results in better living.

We don't make ourselves secure in God by behaving well. That would be to say our relationship is based on our works and I don't believe that. We are secure in God because of Him.

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Mark

You are welcome to see things the way you do, that is the way of Protestantism today.

However, the way of protestant interpretation today does not necessarily lead to understanding of the things of God or of the mountains of Israel and what that image represents.

Shalom

Jay

[mark s]

Sorry, this isn't intended to be about denominations.

[Jay Ross]

Sorry, this isn't intended to be about denominations.

But you have just made it so, as I was talking about all denominations/people within the protestant reformation, not any particular one, forming interpretational opinions about the scriptures. We are both giving our interpretational opinions on what we are reading/understanding within the scriptures. Just because we express our opinions on this forum, it does not mean that we are the only ones right. The practices within protestantism allow all of us to form whatever opinion we like. We are entitled to our opinion however we express it.

Shalom

PS the above comment is framed around a book by Alister McGrath titled Christianity's Dangerous idea 2007.

[mark s]

Dividing over "protestant" and "non-protestant" is dividing according to denomination. Let's keep this about what the Bible says, and not label or stereotype ones who think differently.

[Jay Ross]

Dividing over "protestant" and "non-protestant" is dividing according to denomination. Let's keep this about what the Bible says, and not label or stereotype ones who think differently.

Thanks Mark, that is usually what I experience on forums.

[Jay Ross]

. . . . Let's keep this about what the Bible says, and not label or stereotype ones who think differently.

But everyone is the final arbitrator with respect to what they believe the bible states/says. It is very difficult for people to agree on what is contained within the written words of the bible and which understanding is right.

What I said above was that you were entitled to hold whatever understanding you wanted. This statement has nothing to do with denominations at all, or whether you are "religious" or "non-religious."

People''s relationship with God is a personal thing, not a denominational thing, however denominational understanding may frame a person's undersanding of their relationship with God, but it still comes back to the decisions that the person make about their relationship with God. It is still their opinion as to how they should form that relationship. How they come to that opinion in their mind is not usually open for debate.

That I sense could have happened above.

Shalom

[mark s]

My pastor shared something with me this morning that got me thinking about this again.

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who found a pearl of great value, sold all he had, and purchased it.

That, and, Where a man's treasure is, there his heart is also.

Jesus has purchased us, paying great price. Guess where His heart is!

Much love!
Mark

I have always seen the parables like this- we are the treasure hidden in the field, we are the pearl of great price. Jesus gave all to purchase us. To redeem us!

Thanks Mark!

Hi RT,

And this is, I think, the greatest motivation of all to learn a life "unto God".

God gave everything for and to me, each of us who believe.

God already has His thoughts on me all the time. God is already active with me all the time. How can there be a better life?

Knowing that His way is the good way, well, in my way of thinking, I just needed to be convinced once and for all that everything under the sun actually IS meaningless!

Much love!
Mark