Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

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Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:11 pm

The statement came up in a conversation, "Jesus could read minds". The fellow was thinking of where John wrote:

John 2:24-25 KLV

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.


I know of others:

Luke 5:22, "When Jesus perceived their thoughts . . ."

Luke 9:27, "Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart . . ."

Mark 2:8, "when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves . . ."

Could Jesus "read minds"?

But to me the question is not could he, because it sure seems the Bible says Jesus could know people's thoughts, but rather, could he at will? Did Jesus have the innate ability to "read minds", to use as he wished?

I'd have to answer that with, yes, he did, and he could, but he didn't. He emptied himself and took upon himself the form of a servant. Not the one that makes the decisions, the one who does as told.

I've wondered over this in the past.

Today I came across:

Matthew 11:25-27 KJV

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


Some things occurred to me:

What Jesus had came from his Father.
No one knows the Father except those to whom Jesus reveals the Father.
No one knows the Son except the Father.

If Jesus reveals the Father, yet no one except the Father knows the Son, then Jesus is not revealing himself to any degree. Simply not at all.

I know that Jesus said he only spoke what he heard the Father speak. He only did the works that the Father was doing.

So I'm thinking now that actually nothing at all that Jesus did was on his own, out of his own ability or discretion. Otherwise, we'd be getting a glimple into Jesus himself, wouldn't we? If he were expressing himself in these ways?

I think when Jesus told Andrew, I think, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father", this means that they didn't actually see the Son. They saw the Father, because that was all the Son showed.

John saw the Son in his revelation, on the other hand.

The more I think about this . . . People complain that "the God of the Old Testament" was all "fire and brimstone", while Jesus was all love and forgiveness.

But if it's Jesus who is judging mankind, and, well, YHWH is going to stand on the Mount of Olives, it is YHWH whom Job will see with his eyes, this is Jesus. I think people have their erroneous impressions backwards. I mean say, their error that God is different in the OT from the Gospels, in that God is judgmental, and Jesus is forgiving, while we know that God is One, and there is no conflict, even so, in that line of thinking, it is the Son who is judging, and the Father who forgives.

Your thougths on any of this?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:26 pm

Could Jesus "read minds"?

But to me the question is not could he, because it sure seems the Bible says Jesus could know people's thoughts, but rather, could he at will? Did Jesus have the innate ability to "read minds", to use as he wished?

I'd have to answer that with, yes, he did, and he could, but he didn't. He emptied himself and took upon himself the form of a servant. Not the one that makes the decisions, the one who does as told.


Mark, the mystery of Jesus as both God and man certainly does give us much to contemplate. Looking at the context of
Luke 5:22, Mark 2:8, and Matt. 9:4, I see that Jesus' remarks are in response to the Scribes and Pharisees. So because of His knowledge of their animosity toward Him and His disdain of their legalism, it seems natural that He would have a "perception" of what they were thinking. On the other hand, if Jesus could perform supernatural healings and the ability to forgive sins, I have no doubt that He was capable of "reading minds."

That's how I'm understanding the circumstances that led to that statement. I hope this doesn't sound sacrilegious, but I'm tempted to think it was kind of a "verbal one-upmanship" directed to the Scribes and Pharisees. :bag:
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:41 pm

Well!

You just put a spin on it that hadn't occurred to me!

:hugs:

How perceptive would one need to be to know what these Pharisees would be thinking?

"Son, you sins are forgiven you." That would certainly be a provocative statement, not hard to predict what's coming next. Could have been their feelings were like ribbons worn on their sleeves.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby Jericho on Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:37 pm

The more I think about this . . . People complain that "the God of the Old Testament" was all "fire and brimstone", while Jesus was all love and forgiveness.


Of course that isn't accurate. People saw Jesus as the lamb at the first coming, although we did see him chase the money changers out of the temple with a whip (a bit of foreshadowing). At the second coming Jesus comes back as a lion to smite his enemies, and rule over the nations with an iron rod (Rev 19:15). But this dual nature also exists in God. God is love, but he is also a judge. So when you get down to it, the God of the OT is no different from Jesus from the NT.
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:44 am

Jesus knew all things as He was given to know, of the Father. He could read minds, more importantly hearts, at a distance...

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Jhn 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.


God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:37 am

Could Jesus actually read minds at will? And acted on that independantly? Or did he only know what the Father revealed to him?

Did he read everyone's mind? Or those whom the Father enabled?

?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:41 am

mark s wrote:Could Jesus actually read minds at will? And acted on that independantly? Or did he only know what the Father revealed to him?

Did he read everyone's mind? Or those whom the Father enabled?

?

Much love!
Mark


Did Jesus even need to read mind to understand man and men? I do not possess the ability to actually read minds, but I have always called my own self too perceptive, because in person, I read faces, which reveal train of thoughts (also knowing in the moment what is being discussed). I read agendas of people and see the simplicity of them, because in most cases, they aren't using much at all of their mind.
If I am extremely good at discerning and reading and perceiving my environment and the individuals or groups in it, how much more the Lord, even in His Human form, and without sin in Him? It is often the agendas of people that make them go wayward, so if the Lord had a perfect temper and never got mad, He always was able to make "the right call...."....and etc.......
I hope my comments about myself haven't derailed, because I am a hot mess.....I am saying I do these things very, very well as a hot mess.....imagine perfect understanding, control of emotions, etc, ALSO being in play.....because I mess things up for myself with my human condition(s).
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:54 am

mark s wrote:Could Jesus actually read minds at will? And acted on that independantly? Or did he only know what the Father revealed to him?

Did he read everyone's mind? Or those whom the Father enabled?


Mark, there is always a temptation to create a hierarchy in the Trinity. I don't think that's what you're doing but when we speak of Jesus' submission to the Father and the Father as the source of Jesus' deity and/or His "oversight" for lack of a better word, we tend to go the the doctrine of the "eternal subordination of the Son." That doctrine is normally expressed as evidence of gender roles and that of the wife's submission to the husband.

Jesus went out of His way throughout the NT to identify Himself as "I Am," the living water, the light of the world, the Bread of Life, the Good Shepherd, the Logos, etc. He was identifying Himself, if they could accept it, as God in the flesh.

When scripture speaks of His obedience and submission, it speaks of His identification with humanity.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 


Jesus and the Father are One with equal power, foreknowledge, authority. In taking human flesh the Son of God voluntarily relinquished his status, not his divinity or being as God, assuming the form of a servant.
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:23 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Mark, there is always a temptation to create a hierarchy in the Trinity.


Hi Abiding,

Is there always that temptation? I want to just look at Scripture, and what it says.

You've mentioned "the eternal subordination of the Son". I'm looking at Jesus' earthly mission.

Certainly Jesus proclaimed Himself God. That's why the Jews kept wanting to stone him to death.

When scripture speaks of His obedience and submission, it speaks of His identification with humanity.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 


I think with these we need to keep in mind those passages such as, "I only say what I hear my Father say." This, for instance, says to me that Jesus did not speak of His own initiative. In saying, I only do what I see my Father do, again, this speaks to me that Jesus did not act of his own initiative, but was subject to the Father, only doing that which the Father gave him to do. Do you see this differently?

Then you have such as:

Jeremiah 32:27 KJV

Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?


How does this relate to the fact that Jesus incarnated - took on flesh?

I'm wondering that there was more to it than simply to identify with us. If if we want to use that word, I'm thinking to a much deeper level that I would normally think of, with in mind:

Hebrews 5:8 KJV

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;


It seems to me that there is something deeper here.

Jesus and the Father are One with equal power, foreknowledge, authority. In taking human flesh the Son of God voluntarily relinquished his status, not his divinity or being as God, assuming the form of a servant.


Again, agreed, Jesus did not stop being God when he was born a man. Do you think that Jesus was fully and completely suborndinate to the Father between being the time of being conceived in Mary, and his death on the cross?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:30 pm

GodsStudent wrote:
Did Jesus even need to read mind to understand man and men?


Hi GS,

My wife and I both tend to be fairly perceptive that way also.

I like David's example, since it presents Jesus "seeing" someone he was not actually looking at, as he saw Nathanael under the fig tree.

Somehow Jesus "remotely viewed" Nathanael, apparently.

I'm coming to think that all of these instances were provided by the Father by the Holy Spirit to Jesus who was not doing anything from or of or for himself.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Mark, I agree that Jesus in the NT Is every bit as judgmental as God in the OT.

In Matthew, mark, Luke and John he is constantly talking about hell... If your eye causes you to sin pluck it out... Better to enter heaven maimed than whole body cast into hell...And I will declare to them depart from me into everlasting fire, I never knew you... Those who did not give him food clothing and drink will be cast into hell... Do not fear man, Fear him who can kill both body and soul in hell. Jesus was all about fire and brimstone.

The question of, what does Jesus KNOW... Do we mean now, or while he was on Earth? The woman at the well said that Jesus told her everything she ever did. I think that by the time he was an adult he knew all things.

Does Jesus/God percieve our thoughts now? He definitely does. Is there anything that God doesn't know? He fills heaven and earth.

Psalm...
"Let the thoughts of my heart and meditations of my mind be pleasing to you Lord"

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

I don't like the idea of dumbing down God/Jesus as if there's anything he doesn't know or can't do.

In the last days they will deny his power.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:01 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:The question of, what does Jesus KNOW... Do we mean now, or while he was on Earth? The woman at the well said that Jesus told her everything she ever did. I think that by the time he was an adult he knew all things.


Hi EC,

I completely count on the fact that "what I whisper in secret, God hears me - Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, however you want to say it. I know He hears me, and I know He sees me. Each of us.

I've been thinking about when Jesus was on the earth from cradle to grave.

I believe Jesus is humanity's all-powerful and all-knowing judge, and I completely agree, nothing should ever try to diminish His role in our world.

I think the reason this is meaningful to me is that if Jesus did what he did by the power of the Holy Spirit, and not be some innate ability within Himself, well, we have that same Spirit is us. What is the limit to what can be done through us?

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:49 pm

mark s wrote:I think the reason this is meaningful to me is that if Jesus did what he did by the power of the Holy Spirit, and not be some innate ability within Himself, well, we have that same Spirit is us. What is the limit to what can be done through us?


The Trinity is deity. Supernatural beings. All powerful; all knowledgeable; all wise; etc. The three are in perfect unity and agreement.

The Holy Spirit has endowed believers with various gifts to bring maturity, edification, and unity to the universal church. While some of those gifts are supernatural, others are natural talents/abilities to be used in specific areas of ministry.

Here is a list of gifts I found in Romans 12, 1 Cor. 12, and Eph 4.

1) apostle
2) prophecy
3) miracles
4) healing
5) tongues
6) interpretation of tongues
7) word of knowledge
8) wisdom
9) discerning of spirits
10) giving
11) exhortation
12) ministering
13) showing mercy
14) faith
15)pastor/teacher
16) evangelism
17) helps
18) administrations
19) hospitality

Note that the supernatural gifts are not necessarily "forever" gifts, but endowed as the need arises by the Holy Spirit to accomplish a specific purpose.

My conclusion is that yes, the Holy Spirit dwells within us as believers, but as "human" believers as opposed to deity. More often than not, there's a difference in the way the gifts/power is manifest.
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:37 pm

Naturally I'm not suggesting we are deity.

But I do think we sometimes sell ourselves short.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:48 pm

Didn't Jesus say that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that he cast out devils?

Here:

Matthew 12:27-28 KJV

And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


Still thinking . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:57 pm

mark s wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:The question of, what does Jesus KNOW... Do we mean now, or while he was on Earth? The woman at the well said that Jesus told her everything she ever did. I think that by the time he was an adult he knew all things.


Hi EC,

I completely count on the fact that "what I whisper in secret, God hears me - Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, however you want to say it. I know He hears me, and I know He sees me. Each of us.

I've been thinking about when Jesus was on the earth from cradle to grave.

I believe Jesus is humanity's all-powerful and all-knowing judge, and I completely agree, nothing should ever try to diminish His role in our world.

I think the reason this is meaningful to me is that if Jesus did what he did by the power of the Holy Spirit, and not be some innate ability within Himself, well, we have that same Spirit is us. What is the limit to what can be done through us?

Much love!
mark


I see what you mean.
Look at what the Apostles accomplished when they received the Holy Spirit

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

Acts 2:43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 14:3 Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.


I think about that verse, that in the last days men would have a form of godliness yet deny His power. It's a sin to deny His wonder working power, maybe if we would expect the supernatural we would see the supernatural more often

Maybe we don't expect miracles because we don't really NEED them?
Are we like the church in Revelation? We have need of nothing.

Revelation 3:17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

I don't know. But I do know that God healed me supernaturally through a word of knowledge on the 700 club on 12-12-12, I've seen His power and I know He can. He does it everyday.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:14 pm

I've been working at applying this to my general daily life.

The Bible tells me I'm to always rejoice, to be grateful for everything, to never be afraid or worried, to always assume that God is going to work everything out just fine.

I've become focused on Romans 15:13:

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may be filled with hope in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I like the Concordant Literal Translation:

Now the God of expectation be filling you with every/all joy and peace in the believing, that you may be super-abounding in expectation in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives us power to to be super-abounding in hope/expectation/the certain knowledge of good to come. This hope/expectation comes with the joy and peace we receive in return for believing.

We can be filled with joy and peace and the certain expectation of wonderful things to come, all for the price of believing.

How much does God want to do through us? Healings and miracles? Sometimes, I certain. All the other gives? I expect so.

What about just being actually joyful and peaceful and thankful - all the time? All for the price of believing that he will do this in us.

Then there is that "self-control". Hmmm. All the time. For the price of believing?

God has also proven himself to me. What he's done in my life, and in front of my face leaves me with no doubt but that every word is real and true. And those words say many amazing things that God intends for us in this life.

I don't see where there are any limits, only what we impose.

I'm thinking in terms of faith, and in terms of those vessels for honorable use and for dishonorable use (Paul writing to Timothy), and that we are to keep ourselves clean.

Faith in the face of testing defeats sin, which gives me confidence before God. Faith in his leading gives me confidence in my mission. And faith in his power gives me confidence to move forward.

But even if I sin, faith in his forgiveness and mercy and love mean that there is no breach, and in fact God becomes my active ally in my struggle against sin in the flesh. There is no more need for guilt or shame, only continuing to grow, and grow closer to Him.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus Emptied Himself - How much?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:20 pm

But I do know that God healed me supernaturally through a word of knowledge on the 700 club on 12-12-12, I've seen His power and I know He can. He does it everyday.


I, too, have experienced the supernatural word of knowledge. He gave me specific directions about an individual who was in need of money and told me exactly how much to give her ($100). I took out the $100 from the ATM and put it in a card to be given anonymously before the church service. She was the music leader and prior to opening the song portion of the service, she made an announcement that she had been praying for $100 for her son's field trip that they didn't have. She didn't even tell her husband about the need so he wouldn't feel bad that they didn't have it. But she was jubilant that God had provided it that morning thru a member of the church and she was praising the Lord for that person's gift.

For just a moment, I had thought perhaps I was making that up in my own head, but hearing her testimony made me know to never ignore that still small voice.

:bowing:
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