Did God destroy Israel in AD70?

[Keeping Alert]

I saw a discussion going on in another thread debating whether it was Christ himself who came back to destroy Israel or was it the Father who destroyed Israel in AD70.

I used to think that way, but I have since thought differently. Jesus had taken all our sins on the cross and asked the Father to forgive them. Paul spoke a message of reconciliation for all including the Jews.

Pointing the finger at God seems at odds with the New Covenant of Grace that Jesus came to establish in his blood.

But we know Satan had been trying to destroy the Jews... Egypt, the male children 2 years and under at Jesus time, Hitler... Why not Satan again in AD 70?

[mark s]

I go with Occam's Razor. The Romans did it. God let them. The Romans were serving God's purpose, so He did not prevent the carrying out of the evil desires of their hearts. I wouldn't doubt those desires being encouraged by Satan.

Just like with the cross, I imagine. The evil desires of evil men, murderers, acted out on the King of Glory, but only because it served His purpose.

Much love!
Mark

[Jericho]

I use to think that the destruction of Israel in 70AD was not a judgement, but now I'm not so sure. He allowed Israel and Judah to be destroyed by the Assyrians and Babylonians for their sins. So why not Jerusalem and the 2nd Temple for rejecting Jesus as Messiah? To me Daniel would seem to suggest this:

“Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. (Dan 9:24)

After the sixty-two ‘sevens,' the Anointed One (Jesus) will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (2nd Temple). The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. (Dan 9:26 - Emphasis mine)

True, we live in a new covenant under grace, but God has not let them off the hook for rejecting Jesus as the messiah, as they still do (collectively) today. This is the reason for the Great Tribulation aka Jacob's Trouble. It's to get them into a position where they will have to acknowledge Jesus as messiah. In fact, it is suggested that Jesus will not return until they do this (Hosea 5:15, Matt 23:39).

As an aside, I have a theory that we could revert back the the Old Covenant, temporarily, during those last seven years. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=68746&p=571238&hilit=satan+power#p571238

[shorttribber]

I go with Occam's Razor. The Romans did it. God let them. The Romans were serving God's purpose, so He did not prevent the carrying out of the evil desires of their hearts. I wouldn't doubt those desires being encouraged by Satan.

Just like with the cross, I imagine. The evil desires of evil men, murderers, acted out on the King of Glory, but only because it served His purpose.

Much love!
Mark

Yep...mostly the same way I look at it

[Jay Ross]

Hello

When Israel at Mt Zina entered into the Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the nations, they were warned in the second commandment of the Ten Commandments, that if they entered into idolatrous behaviour during the time of the fathers of the first and second age of their existence then their iniquities would be visited upon them in the third and the fourth age. This warning carried a heavy burden for them to bear during the third and the fourth age of their existence.

Even Christ offered them relief from their impending heavy burden by accepting His lighter burden upon them, but they were not prepared to let go of their idolatrous behaviour. Even now, close to two ages from when their iniquities began visiting upon them, they still have to repent of their sin of Idolatrous sins, even within this present age of Israel.

Let consider the following passages: -

Ezekiel 6:1-10: - Judgment on Idolatrous Israel

6:1 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 2 "Son of man, set your face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, 3 and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God! Thus says the Lord God to the mountains, to the hills, to the ravines, and to the valleys: "Indeed I, even I, will bring a sword against you, and I will destroy your high places. 4 Then your altars shall be desolate, your incense altars shall be broken, and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. 5 And I will lay the corpses of the children of Israel before their idols, and I will scatter your bones all around your altars. 6 In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate, so that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, your idols may be broken and made to cease, your incense altars may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. 7 The slain shall fall in your midst, and you shall know that I am the Lord.

8 "Yet I will leave a remnant, so that you may have some who escape the sword among the nations, when you are scattered through the countries{/earth}. 9 Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations where they are carried captive, because I was crushed by their adulterous heart which has departed from Me, and by their eyes which play the harlot after their idols; they will loathe themselves for the evils which they committed in all their abominations. 10 And they shall know that I am the Lord; I have not said in vain that I would bring this calamity upon them."

Ezekiel 11:14-21: - God Will Restore Israel

14 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 15 "Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, 'Get far away from the Lord; this land/{earth} has been given to us as a possession.' 16 Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone."' 17 Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land/{soil or field} of Israel."' 18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord God.

Ezekiel 23:36-49: - Both Sisters Judged

36 The Lord also said to me: "Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Then declare to them their abominations. 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. They have committed adultery with their idols, and even sacrificed their sons whom they bore to Me, passing them through the fire, to devour them. 38 Moreover they have done this to Me: They have defiled My sanctuary on the same day and profaned My Sabbaths. 39 For after they had slain their children for their idols, on the same day they came into My sanctuary to profane it; and indeed thus they have done in the midst of My house.

40 "Furthermore you sent for men to come from afar, to whom a messenger was sent; and there they came. And you washed yourself for them, painted your eyes, and adorned yourself with ornaments. 41 You sat on a stately couch, with a table prepared before it, on which you had set My incense and My oil. 42 The sound of a carefree multitude was with her, and Sabeans were brought from the wilderness with men of the common sort, who put bracelets on their wrists and beautiful crowns on their heads. 43 Then I said concerning her who had grown old in adulteries, 'Will they commit harlotry with her now, and she with them?' 44 Yet they went in to her, as men go in to a woman who plays the harlot; thus they went in to Oholah and Oholibah, the lewd women. 45 But righteous men will judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.

46 "For thus says the Lord God: 'Bring up an assembly against them, give them up to trouble and plunder. 47 The assembly shall stone them with stones and execute them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn their houses with fire. 48 Thus I will cause lewdness to cease from the land, that all women may be taught not to practice your lewdness. 49 They shall repay you for your lewdness, and you shall pay for your idolatrous sins. Then you shall know that I am the Lord God.'"

The visitation of the iniquities of Israel was not because they rejected Jesus and crucified Him, around the year 70 AD, but it was because of Israel's continual idolatrous worship.

Israel has been warned that at the end of the fourth age of their existence, if they have no salt within them then they will be discarded and thrown out on the dung heap.

This is still a near future event and those of Israel who have lost their saltiness will not be saved when the time of the Heathen Gentiles comes to its completion. Those who have retained their saltiness will become the remanent of Israel and will be saved to serve God's purposes and become a blessing to all of the nations of the earth.

The remanent will repent of the idolatrous behaviour of their fathers as well as the sin of idolatry that they to have committed.

They will also see Jesus and commit to His terms for peace with the Lord God.

Shalom

[Exit40]

The visitation of the iniquities of Israel was not because they rejected Jesus and crucified Him, around the year 70 AD, but it was because of Israel's continual idolatrous worship.

I agree. And Jesus is the Prince that shall come.

God Bless You

David

[mark s]

Luke 19:43-44 KJV

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark 12:12-9
12 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. 6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others

John 11:47-48
47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48“If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Jesus said the tenants would kill the Son because they wanted the vineyard for themselves.
They did exactly what He said and for the reason He said, ownership ( our place and our nation).
Jesus prophesied their actions and their motives AND He prophesied their destruction by the Father, the owner of the vineyard, whose son was killed.

From Wikipedia - Titus: the prince, who destroyed the city and temple in 70AD, 3 1/2 years into 1st Jewish Roman War.
Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, as he claimed that he had not won the victory on his own, but had been the vehicle through which their God had manifested his wrath against his people.

Personally, I believe what Jesus said about who would kill them.

Here is some more evidence.

Romans 11:20-22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

A lot of people only want to see His kindness and do not want to acknowledge His severity.

Psalm 47:2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.

[mark s]

Interestingly, the parable of the vineyard does not describe the destruction of the vineyard, instead, the vineyard remains intact, just turned over to others.

Jerusalem was destroyed, not simply given to new tenants.

Can someone think of something that better fits the parable of the vineyard? Something given to produce fruit, which was not produced, and instead handed over to someone else so that they would produce fruit?

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Why was the temple in Jerusalem destroyed?

Because the Israelite nation would not repent of their idolatrous double dealing with God. Once a year they would go up to the temple to offer up their Sin Sacrifice without choosing to stop their idolatrous behaviours during the rest of the year.
By destroying the temple and scattering the "priesthood" the ability of the Israelites to offer up a yearly sin sacrifice was stopped. The shepherds of Israel were as guilty of this sin as were the rest of the nation.

What does that mean for the nation of Israel? Their means of interacting with God was removed from them and they were removed from God's walled garden and the descendant generations of Israel were scattered to all the compass points of the earth until those who will have understanding will cause the remanent to be refined and healed and a later descendant generation of Israel will be restored by God and God will make like new again His covenant of a kingdom of priests, a holy nation and his possession among the nations to serve His purposes.

Daniel 11:32-35: - 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

The above passage is unfolding now and we will see the covenants of God given to another descendant generation who are prepared to submt to the God appointed shepherd for Israel so that they can fulfil God's Prophetic word that Israel will become a Blessing for all of the nations of the world.

Israel will re-enter into a new salvation with God throught the newer means of reconciliation for their iniquities, and will enter into everlasting righteous and they will see and come to understand the vision and prophecy of God that was over them and will be anointed to be Holy before all of the nations of the earth.

Then the nations of the earth will join with them to be shown the way to Mt Zion and will come into a lasting relationship with a Holy God.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

John 17:3
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Knowing God is eternal life.
To truly know Him, we must acknowledge both His kindness and severity. To understand the depth of His kindness towards us, we must recognize the depth of His severity. When we recognize how severe He is, then we can grasp the depth of perfect love.
Knowing God is eternal life.
Knowing He is severe as well as kind is knowing God.

[Keeping Alert]

Knowing God is eternal life.
To truly know Him, we must acknowledge both His kindness and severity. To understand the depth of His kindness towards us, we must recognize the depth of His severity. When we recognize how severe He is, then we can grasp the depth of perfect love.
Knowing God is eternal life.
Knowing He is severe as well as kind is knowing God.

Yes, indeed Keith.

But what I want to say is that the severity of God is not seen in AD 70.

In fact, Jesus tried to save them as a hen under her wings (Matthew 23:37)

Matthew 24 then is Jesus giving them warnings over and over of signs that if they see them, to flee and not even go back the house to get their cloak or things.

Apparently, according to Josphesus, no Christian perished in Jerusalem because they heeded the words of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Yes, God is severe but he was not the Source of the severity which happened in AD70 in Jerusalem.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

In 70 AD God was being very severe against the house of Israel in that he removed the means by which the Israelites could offer their yearly sin sacrifice. They had not means to offer up a sacrifice to receive God's forgiveness for their idolatrous iniquities. Their iniquities of the first two ages of their existence was being visited upon their children and their children's' children as foretold in Ex 20:4-6 over the next two ages. Those Israelites who were captured in Jerusalem and Judah were sold into slavery.

God scattered the Israelites throughout the world to preserve them so that at the beginning of the fifth age of their existence they could come to their senses and repent of this idolatrous behaviour and be saved.

From Deu 28 we know that God's punishment ramped up over the third and the fourth ages of their existences. Jerusalem became a desolate place with devastation over the surrounding land.

God's heavy yoke of the visitation of their iniquities upon them was harsh and it ramped up over the next 2,000 or so years and is not finished yet.

Shalom

[Keeping Alert]

Hi Jay,

I see that through Christ, God has reconciled the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses... (2 Corinthians 5:19)

Christ's death on the cross changed everything...

Shalom
KA