Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

[keithareilly]

In another topic I posted the following ...

Begin Quote

Romans 10:05-13
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Righteousness based upon Law vs righteousness based upon faith.
Righteousness based upon Law
Those who are about righteousness based upon Law are concerned about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Their definition of "saved" is about who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. This is righteousness based upon Law.

Righteousness based upon Faith
Those who are about righteousness based upon faith are about the Word being in their heart and their mouth and that these two result in righteousness and salvation, respectively. Here and now.

Righteousness based upon Law is about where you are going after you die. Righteousness based upon faith is about experiencing salvation here and now. Asking about the thief on the cross is focusing on where one is going after one dies.

End Quote

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

We have two perspectives legal and faith. Both perspectives are still valid.
Do not confuse this statement with the idea: we are still under the law. We are not.
What I am saying is: The law is still in place. The law has not been done away with.

In this topic ...
I am inviting people to share scriptures from the perspective of both legal and faith.
In the the next post I will provide an example.
The topic is not limited to the following example.

[keithareilly]

Luke 13:6-9
6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Legal Perspective ... True based upon historical facts
This verse describes God, the owner of the vineyard and the servant (Jesus) and the people of Israel, the trees.
The trees did not bear fruit. Fertilizer was provide, Christ came and preached and was sacrificed. Some repented, most did not. Eventually, Israel was cut down by God through the Romans during the Jewish Roman wars for not repenting and rejecting Christ.

Faith Perspective ... Kingdom of Heaven within you -Luke 17:20-21, Where your treasure is, your heart is -Matt 6:21
We each have relationships with others where we encourage growth and fruitfulness. We spend time and resources on those relationships. Eventually, we evaluate our time and resources and the fruitfulness of the relationship. If the relationship simply consumes resources without yielding any fruit, we may end those relationships.


The legal perspective and the faith perspective are lined up with each other.
There exists a synergy between the perspectives.
Because the LAW is written on our hearts, our works of faith align with the LAW.

[Jay Ross]

Luke 13:6-9
6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Legal Perspective ... True based upon historical facts
This verse describes God, the owner of the vineyard and the servant (Jesus) and the people of Israel, the trees.
The trees did not bear fruit. Fertilizer was provide, Christ came and preached and was sacrificed. Some repented, most did not. Eventually, Israel was cut down by God through the Romans during the Jewish Roman wars for not repenting and rejecting Christ.

Faith Perspective ... Kingdom of Heaven within you -Luke 17:20-21, Where your treasure is, your heart is -Matt 6:21
We each have relationships with others where we encourage growth and fruitfulness. We spend time and resources on those relationships. Eventually, we evaluate our time and resources and the fruitfulness of the relationship. If the relationship simply consumes resources without yielding any fruit, we may end those relationships.


The legal perspective and the faith perspective are lined up with each other.
There exists a synergy between the perspectives.
Because the LAW is written on our hearts, our works of faith align with the LAW.

Keith, while the accepted literal understanding of what the Greek word "ἔτη" means "year," and is used that way consistently in the NT, when we consider this parable, in consideration with the prophetic words of the OT, my sense is that it can also be understood to have the meaning of a "season" which prophetically has a much longer timespan.

OT prophecies tell us that after two ages/days of the Lord that Israel will be revived and once more enter into a covenant relationship with God to become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation and His possession among the nations.
We are also told in the OT that after to ages of idolatrous worship that the iniquities of the Israelites will be visited upon the nation of Israel for a further two ages.

Keith I would question the validity of your post and your understanding.

The present dilemma of Israel that saw Israel scattered to the four corners of the earth is not because of their rejection of Christ, it was and has always been because of their rejection of God by their idolatrous worship which they hid from Him.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Luke 17:11-19
11While He was on the way to Jerusalem, He was passing between Samaria and Galilee. 12As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him; 13and they raised their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!” 14When He saw them, He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they were going, they were cleansed. 15Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice, 16and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan. 17Then Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine—where are they? 18“Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?” 19And He said to him, “Stand up and go; your faith has made you well.”

Jesus commanded them what to do, go see the priests. On their way, before they arrived, they were healed.
Only the foreigner, deciding to not obey Jesus's instructions, returned to give glory to God.

2 Kings 13:15-19
15Elisha said to him, “Take a bow and arrows.” So he took a bow and arrows. 16Then he said to the king of Israel, “Put your hand on the bow.” And he put his hand on it, then Elisha laid his hands on the king’s hands. 17He said, “Open the window toward the east,” and he opened it. Then Elisha said, “Shoot!” And he shot. And he said, “The LORD’S arrow of victory, even the arrow of victory over Aram; for you will defeat the Arameans at Aphek until you have destroyed them.” 18Then he said, “Take the arrows,” and he took them. And he said to the king of Israel, “Strike the ground,” and he struck it three times and stopped. 19So the man of God was angry with him and said, “You should have struck five or six times, then you would have struck Aram until you would have destroyed it. But now you shall strike Aram only three times.”

The king was not told how many times to strike the ground.

[keithareilly]

Matthew 13:31-32
31He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES.”

Legal - Building a nation that is not a nation
Jesus came, preached, sowing the seed among his disciples, the church has grown to cover the garden (world). A nation that is not a nation, has been built. It has its own laws or rules put in place be each congregation or franchise. Some are more liberal some are more conservative. Whichever, one must adhere to the rules to remain a member of the congregation.

Faith - Our works perfect our faith.
As we act upon our faith, our faith is perfected. We learn that what is said in scriptures is really true. The world teaches us to fear and depend upon money for survival; it does not teach us to trust God. Each time we have faith in God and act upon our faith, we understand the lies of the world better and our faith in God increases. After acting on our faith numerous times and experiencing what is said in scriptures is not just true but also real, our faith increases like the mustard seed. It starts out small, and grows within each of us.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I would disagree with this statement:

As we act upon our faith, our faith is perfected.

According to Hebrews, Jesus is the originator, and perfector, of our faith.

According to Galatians, it's not even our own faith. It's from Jesus.

He puts faith from Him into us. He claims the position to perfect our faith. How can it be different?

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Luke 17:11-19
11While He was on the way to Jerusalem, He was passing between Samaria and Galilee. 12As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him; 13and they raised their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!” 14When He saw them, He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they were going, they were cleansed. 15Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice, 16and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan. 17Then Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine—where are they? 18“Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?” 19And He said to him, “Stand up and go; your faith has made you well.”

Jesus commanded them what to do, go see the priests. On their way, before they arrived, they were healed.
Only the foreigner, deciding to not obey Jesus's instructions, returned to give glory to God.

An interesting thing about this . . . they were to show themselves to the priests according to the Covenant made at Horeb. As a Samaritan, the 10th would not have been subject to the law.

Certainly - the other nine would have done well to have returned to thank Jesus after the ritual cleansing. But even those nine, they were likewise made well, And I would think it was by their faith the same as the other.

All were cleansed. Nine were definitely under the Law of the Leper in the Day of his Cleansing. The 10th, a Samaratin, a foreigner.

It was the one not under the Law that returned to thank Jesus.

Interesting to think about!

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

The legal perspective and the faith perspective are lined up with each other.
There exists a synergy between the perspectives.
Because the LAW is written on our hearts, our works of faith align with the LAW.

Hi Keith,

I'd have to take exception with this part also.

The one with faith eats anything. The one without that faith restricts their diet to the Law.

It would seem to me that your assertion would lead in something like this direction. If we truly believe, if we are living our faith, we will, out of our own desire, offer the animal sacrifices that the Law requires.

We will not eat shrimp, or clam chowder, or tuna. We will not want to, because of our faith. Or bacon.

We will pass down to our children the inheritance received from our fathers consisting of a plot of land in the Promised Land.

We will give to the priest and the Levite living in our areas 10% of all the increase of our crops, so they can eat, having no land inheritance, because the LORD is their portion.

We will show our skin infections to the priest, and offer animal sacrifices towards our cleansing. We will want to. We believe.

But I don't believe these things are true.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Mark,

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

From my observations or you on this board, I would wager your works of faith align with these commandments.

Keith

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I'm wondering about your thoughts on what I wrote.

James wrote that you cannot select portions of the Law. The person who breaks one Law is a lawbreaker, and is guilty of all of it.

If you eat shrimp, which happens to be one of my very favorite foods, then you are guilty of violating the Law, all the Law, it is all one thing.

So by these words I stand condemned. My faith allows me to eat shrimp, which is clearly against the Covenant of Law at Horeb.

Therefore, my faith must be false. It does not produce the works of the Mosaic Law. I am a lawbreaker. It's just like being a broken glass. You can't "unbreak" it.

I do not give tithes to the Levites. I don't offer animal sacrifices. I don't do the works of the Law. Some of them, sure. But a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because I do some of what the Law requires does not mean I'm justified by it. Because I don't do all of it.

And again, God's Word recorded in James, break one, you are guilty of all.

So I will have to continue to disagree with you.

My works, while perhaps not in their entirety, but even so, do not fulfill the requirements of the Law.

It wasn't meant to be that way. God wants us living in innocence, without law. Just love.

Two commandment, and two only.

Trust Jesus. Love each other.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark 2:23-28
23And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. 24The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” 27Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28“So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

The sabbath, like all other laws, were made for man.
Man was not made for the laws, the laws were made for man.

This is consistent with
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

Laws are viewed as being over us, governing us.
Faith and fear governs us; not laws.

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 [f]and [g]immoral men [h]and homosexuals [i]and kidnappers [j]and liars [k]and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

What is Lawless?
Homeless is not having a home. Careless is not having care. Fatherless is not having a father.
The suffix 'less' is describing 'not possessing'. The lawless are those who do not have the laws within them. Therefore they do not possess law.

Romans 2:12-16
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Jeremiah 21:33
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

The New Covenant is: The law of God is within us; written on our hearts and minds. Thus He is our God and we are His people.


The Law is the Law. But, it has two perspectives.
The perspective of the Lawless and the perspective of those who possess Law.
For the lawless, the Law is an imposition of upon them coming from the outside.
For those who are full of the law, that is, the lawful, they have the law with them at all times for it exists within us.


Keith

[mark s]

1 Timothy 1:5-11

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

[keithareilly]

Correct,

If all people possessed the law, there would be no need for laws.

[mark s]

That's not the point. The law is for the lawless.

You're saying that if all had the law inside, there would be no lawless. These are two different statements.

The Law does not apply to the child of God.

And what about my shrimp?? You've never responded to my shrimp-eating faith.

In saying the Law is for the lawless, there is not the implication that if the lawless were to become lawful it would mean that they actually did really have the law, just in a different form.

That would be saying that the (internal) law is for the lawful. That is exactly opposite to what the Scripture states.

The reality is that our lives are to be something like a life-transfer from Jesus to me. His life informs mine. Not the Law. Jesus. The law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus. They brought different things. Not the one repackaged. That's in Hebrews.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark wrote

The Law does not apply to the child of God.

And what about my shrimp?? You've never responded to my shrimp-eating faith.

When one applies paint, the paint is on the outside.
When the law is on the inside, it is not applied, else it would be on the outside.


I did answer your post about the shrimp. I posted the passage about Christ's disciples picking grain on the sabbath. And Christ quoting what King David had done that was not lawful. Earlier I posted about the man who was healed who came back and gave glory to God instead of going on to the priests as Christ commanded.

[keithareilly]

Luke 13:10-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Healing on the Sabbath
10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.” 13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God. 14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15 But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him? 16 And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?” 17 As He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire crowd was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.

Did Jesus break the Law?

Did Jesus Sin?

[mark s]

Mark wrote

The Law does not apply to the child of God.

And what about my shrimp?? You've never responded to my shrimp-eating faith.

When one applies paint, the paint is on the outside.
When the law is on the inside, it is not applied, else it would be on the outside.

Hi Keith,

Perhaps I was insufficiently clear. Please allow me to try again.

The Law is not intended to govern the child of God. Nor is the child of God to be judged by the Law of the Covenant with Israel at Horeb. Nor is the Law of that covenent intended to direct the life of the child of God. Nor are we to attempt to match ourselves to the Law.

This is from Romans 7, and Galatians, primarily. We are dead to the Law. Not because it became our internal guide. Because we are in a different type of relationship with God.

I did answer your post about the shrimp. I posted the passage about Christ's disciples picking grain on the sabbath. And Christ quoting what King David had done that was not lawful. Earlier I posted about the man who was healed who came back and gave glory to God instead of going on to the priests as Christ commanded.

The law commands that the Israelites not eat shrimp. The law did not command that no one pick heads of grain to eat on the Sabbath. That was from the people.

King David ate the Bread of the Presence out of neccesity, in the same fashion as when Jesus defends those who will pull an animal out of a pit on the Sabbath.

But there is no neccesity for me to eat shrimp. I have a variety of foods I can eat. God has blessed my wife and I with an income and stores nearby. I eat shrimp simply because I want to. And I can. So I do. And I give thanks to God for it.

Again, the Jews were under requirement of the Law. The Samaratin was not. But even so, the fact that the man did not go directly to the priests - notice, nothing says he didn't go later - what bearing does that have on whether or not my life duplicates the requirements of a covenant made between God and a middle eastern nation?

Whether or not the leper returned, whether or not King David ate the Bread of the Presence, what have these to do with me? My life is my responsibility, isn't it? Whether or not someone else does good or bad?

I eat shrimp, and I intent to continue to do so. I see no reason not to. But the Law of the Covenant made between God and Israel at Horeb prohibits this. There is no neccesity. There is no risk of loss, or needless hunger. I just do it.

Again, I'd have to say, according to your words, my faith is at best incomplete, leading me into that which decidedly disagrees with the Law as mentioned.

By your words, my faith is willful disobedience. How is that not so?

Much love!
mark

[keithareilly]

Mark,

Again, I'd have to say, according to your words, my faith is at best incomplete, leading me into that which decidedly disagrees with the Law as mentioned.

Keith wrote

Hi Mark,

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

From my observations or you on this board, I would wager your works of faith align with these commandments.

Keith

Considering what I have already said and that you sign all your posts with "much love", I would conclude your statement about your faith being incomplete is more an expression of your humility. It is not at all what I am saying. I hope everyone sees what a good man you are.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Two covenants were agreed to, at Mt Sinai even though they have both been rejected.

The first covenant was a Covenant with the nation of Israel to be a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession, among the Nations. While the Moses was up on the mountain talking with God face to face, the leaders of the Nation of Israel revolted against God and of being God's Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession, among the nations.

Moses records that God wanted to totally destroy the nation of Israel, and to start again with a new nation based on Moses' offspring, however, Moses interceded on behalf of Israel and God relented and entered into a second covenant, known as the Mosaic Covenant, which instigated the role of a separate priesthood within the nation of Israel, and which disenfranchised the individual priests and leaders of each of the eleven tribes which was based on the initial model of Melchizedek and patterned by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In this initial covenant, it was the Priest(s) and Princely leader of each of the twelve tribes of Israel that came one after the other on successive days to sanctify the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation and God's possession, among the nations Covenant, with God.

After the Tent of Meeting, the Portable Tabernacle of God was sanctified to God by Moses and Moses ordained the Tribe of the Levites to be the Priests for the tribes of Israel to act on the behalf of the tribes of Israel between them and God such that they as a Priesthood ruled over all of the tribes of Israel.

Within both the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession, among the nations and the Mosaic Covenants, they contained the basis of the Salvation covenant which enabled each and every individual person to enter into a personal relationship with God within the terms of God's statutes which had been in force since the time that God had created Adam and Eve. The relationships with God began initially as a personal relationship where God interacted face to face with people and over time up and until Jacob we have this record of God continually interacting directly with people, which then jumps around 430 years when God interacts directly with Moses to initiate His covenant with the Nation of Israel to be His priests and possession among the nation of the world and to fulfil God's covenant with Abraham that Abraham's descentants will be a blessing to all of the nations, i.e. the different people groups and families in the world, in restoring their relationship with God on a personal basis such that they would, at some time in the future will be restored into a righteous world that has been renewed by God for those who believe in Him and is countered as righteousness which was there at the very beginning before the fall.

The process of entering into God's righteousness has changed, as foretold to Daniel by God, from the sacrificing of animals, to the Godly sacrifice of His Son.

Sadly, our understanding of God and the provisions that He has made for mankind is lacking.

God has foretold that when Israel as a nation comes to understand what their iniquities are about, after they have had their iniquities visited on them for two ages, and repent of them, which is a conditional requirement of God, that He will once again turn His face to wards them and will redeem them and will make like new again the original initial covenant that he had made with the Nation of israel to be a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession, amongst the nations.

God has promised prophetically, that He will gather the Nation of Israel to Himself once more and will plant them in "the soil of good nourishment" about the things of God, to teach them about the Kingdom of God based on the foundation stone of God that will come down out of Heaven and become the highest mountion/religion, within the whole world so that Israel can become Priests once more to the nations of the world where the nation of Israel will remain disbursed until the end of the Ages of the Age.

This understanding is not a perspective of what is legal and faith, it is an understanding of what our relationship with God is all about and how we can enter into that relationship by conforming our minds by the renewing of our minds about the things of God and to then put on the renewed personhood that God had intended us to be from the beginning of the time that He had made Adam and Eve.

We need to change ourselves into the likeness of God, by changing our hearts to reflect God living within us. Knowing the Legal does not mean that our faith will get us to that point of a healthy relationship with God.

With Abraham, When he believed in God, it was countered to him as righteousness, even though in the same conversation between him and God he could not comprehend that the earth that God was going to reveal to Abraham in the distant future, an earth built around the righteousness of God, he would inherit.

Those of us who are also the children of Abraham will also inherit this promise where God will dwell amongst us as we are moulded into the Temple of God, by Christ that was brought into ruin by the Priests, scribes and the Pharisees during the time of Christ's first advent, three days within God's timeframe, into the future.

We really do have a future and secure relationship with God for those who will believe in Him.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Matthew 15:1-11
1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ 5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” 6he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

9‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

10After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. 11“It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”


pre·cept /ˈprēˌsept/Submit noun
1. a general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought. "moral precepts"
synonyms: principle, rule, tenet, canon, doctrine, command, order, decree, dictate, dictum, injunction, commandment;

[keithareilly]

Matthew 22:36-40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

40 On these two commandments depend the whole law and Prophets.
The entire law results from these two commandments. (This does not include the precepts of men).
The following is an example of our actions/behavior when the entire law (above) is written on our hearts.

Luke 6:27-28, 35-36
27 “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who [a]mistreat you.
35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, [f]expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 [g]Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

When you say, "the entire law written on our hearts", what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean the Law given through Moses?

Do you mean the commandments to Trust Jesus and love others?

Are we talking 10 commandments? Sermon on the Mount?

I appreciate your clarification to me on this.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

I've been reading and mulling over your post above since yesterday, and reading much of Exodus today. Very interesting, very engaging.

A couple of the things I've come across, wasn't the Levitical priesthood in place before the golden calf incident? Established in Exodus 28, the golden calf later in 32?

Also, Didn't Jacob prophesy that Levi would be scattered through the land, a prophecy fulfilled by Levi's inheritance to be the Lord Himself, and not a land possession?

So as such, wouldn't this mean that the Levitical priesthood was actually part of the initial covenant?

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Within both the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession, among the nations and the Mosaic Covenants, they contained the basis of the Salvation covenant which enabled each and every individual person to enter into a personal relationship with God within the terms of God's statutes which had been in force since the time that God had created Adam and Eve. The relationships with God began initially as a personal relationship where God interacted face to face with people and over time up and until Jacob we have this record of God continually interacting directly with people, which then jumps around 430 years when God interacts directly with Moses to initiate His covenant with the Nation of Israel to be His priests and possession among the nation of the world and to fulfil God's covenant with Abraham that Abraham's descentants will be a blessing to all of the nations, i.e. the different people groups and families in the world, in restoring their relationship with God on a personal basis such that they would, at some time in the future will be restored into a righteous world that has been renewed by God for those who believe in Him and is countered as righteousness which was there at the very beginning before the fall.

While I'm not sure about 2 covenants at Mount Sinai, I really appreciate your understanding of God's overall plan - a return to God's original intent. We will be as before the fall, in a creation as before the fall, and as I understand things, even better still as His indwelling Spirit makes us holy, and therefore never to fall throughout the endless ages.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

Yet one more . . .

This understanding is not a perspective of what is legal and faith, it is an understanding of what our relationship with God is all about and how we can enter into that relationship by conforming our minds by the renewing of our minds about the things of God and to then put on the renewed personhood that God had intended us to be from the beginning of the time that He had made Adam and Eve.

We need to change ourselves into the likeness of God, by changing our hearts to reflect God living within us. Knowing the Legal does not mean that our faith will get us to that point of a healthy relationship with God.

God definitely speaks in terms of our personal restoration - returned to "like new". And I think you put it well, the one God intended us to be from the beginning.

Romans 12:1-2 KJV

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"Be not conformed to this world", "conformed" is Passive/Middle voice, which is to say, it is either done to me, or I do it to myself. If it's being done to me, then it's the world, or an evil within the world that is acting upon me to conform me.

In "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind", "transformed" is in the Passive voice, which is to say, it is done to me. And the one who would be transforming me would, in my estimation, be Jesus.

The essence here is to allow yourself to be transformed by God, by, in the words of Peter, not fashioning yourself according to the former lusts in your ignorance, not being conformed to this world.

Now we are to know who we are - the children of God. And to allow God to do as He has promised:

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 KJV

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

God will do this.

He is watching over His Word to perform it.

He is with us as a mighty terrible one, mighty to save, mighty to act on behalf of His children.

it is an understanding of what our relationship with God is all about and how we can enter into that relationship by conforming our minds by the renewing of our minds about the things of God and to then put on the renewed personhood that God had intended us to be from the beginning of the time that He had made Adam and Eve.

Absolutely!!



We have the Mind of Christ. The new man. The new - renewed - humanity. Let's live it.

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

I've been reading and mulling over your post above since yesterday, and reading much of Exodus today. Very interesting, very engaging.

A couple of the things I've come across, wasn't the Levitical priesthood in place before the golden calf incident? Established in Exodus 28, the golden calf later in 32?

Also, Didn't Jacob prophesy that Levi would be scattered through the land, a prophecy fulfilled by Levi's inheritance to be the Lord Himself, and not a land possession?

So as such, wouldn't this mean that the Levitical priesthood was actually part of the initial covenant?

Much love!
Mark

Yes That is true, but Jacob also said of them: -

Genesis 49:5-7: -

5 "Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6 Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob
And scatter them in Israel.

God does have a sense of humour though in that He set the Levites up over the nation as Priests for the nation and the Levites led the people into Idolatrous worship and subsequently into a period of time when the iniquities of the fathers over the first two ages of their existance will be visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth age of their existance when God will walk contrary to the Israelite people. The visitation of the iniquities of the fathers on their children's children is still in place and they will not be redeemed until the time of the Gentiles has run its full course after which time God will redeem the nation of Israek.

We are also told by Jacob that: -

Genesis 49:8-12: -

8 "Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise;
Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
Your father's children shall bow down before you.
9 Judah is a lion's whelp;
From the prey, my son, you have gone up.
He bows down, he lies down as a lion;
And as a lion, who shall rouse him?
10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
And his donkey's colt to the choice vine,
He washed his garments in wine,
And his clothes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes are darker than wine,
And his teeth whiter than milk.

Now Shiloh means peace and transquility and this does not happen until after the time of the GWTJ when those who are judged to be righteous will enter into their inheritance of the renewed earth which God will show us as we enter and was promised to Abraham before he left Ur, his family and the land of his birth.

God undertook with Moses that He would not blot out the Israelites but in doing so He also increased the burden of the Law upon them, until the Law Maker, Christ, came to instigate the new process of returning into a right relationship with God, i.e. our salvation.

Because Abraham believed in God, it was counted unto him as righteousness, as so it is with us since Christ, if we believe in Christ/God then it too will be also counted unto us as righteousness.

However, God gave Abraham only words which He has since backed up with His love and deeds towards His people.

It is very easy for us to say words, but we also need to back them up with our love towards our fellow brothers around us and our deeds of kindness towards them to draw them also into a relationship with God. To become a perfumed garden in the midst of the depravity around us so that our brothers around us can also gain righteousness with us.

The time is coming when the harvest season will kick into full swing and the river of life will become so wide that it cannot be crossed and as God's Holy Priesthood we need to ready ourselves to become more involved in this task.

Soon, in our near future, all of Israel will look upon Christ and weep as Christ comes to protect the nation of Israel from the wrath of the kings lined up against them and they too will also become a Kingdom of Priest and a Holy nation and God's possession among the people as they repent of their sins and iniquities and re-enter into the covenant that they rebelled against at Mt Sinai.

This is God's covenant undertaking with the Nation of Israel.


Shalom

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

I'd respond that yes, words are easy, but faith is either true or false, and if false, our lives will not change. Perhaps in form, in style, as we become perhaps more polite, more dedicated to "good works", but we do not become different. We do not become born again.

But if our faith is true, if we receive our rightful Master, if we believe, we become new. Imputed righteousness came to Abraham, and to us, his children, but more than that, we become new. In our inner being, we become a new person who did not exist before, a person born from God Himself, yes, even as Jesus was the Son of God, the Firstborn. Of course with Jesus, a body was prepared for him, not that Jesus was Himself created. In me, in faith, I become newly created.

I am created in God's likeness, sharing His nature even as in my flesh I share the nature of my father from Adamic creation.

And what father does not teach his children? Earthly fathers may not, but our heavenly father most certainly will. He has promised. He who began a good work in us will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Every day brings completion to His work in and through us. And to work through us is a big part of working in us.

OK, getting a backlog on my desk again . . .

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Keith,

When you say, "the entire law written on our hearts", what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean the Law given through Moses?

Do you mean the commandments to Trust Jesus and love others?

Are we talking 10 commandments? Sermon on the Mount?

I appreciate your clarification to me on this.

Much love!
Mark

Jesus says on these commandments depend the whole law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:36-40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

The laws we have in place to slow down in construction zones when driving are about: Loving the construction workers who are endangered because they work so close to traffic that could kill or injure them and about loving ourselves and other commuters when driving in zones where the situation is not ideal for normal travel. Slowing down in school zones are the same thing. Anti theft, anti murder, etc are all about loving each other.

Those who love God with all their heart, soul, and mind and love their neighbors as they love themselves have the law written within them.

Keith

[mark s]

So when you say we have the law written in our hearts, it means that we love God, and love others, because God has reformed us according to the Law, that is, written the Law on our hearts in such a way as to conform us to it's requirements, all of which can be described as a part of love.

Is that a correct understanding?

Thank you!

Much love!

Mark

[keithareilly]

I would express it differently.

In essence, salvation is not just having our past sins forgiven.
Having past sins forgiven and knowing God shall forgive our future sins, removes fear of condemnation and of approaching God. But what if our hearts are not pure? How are we to be God's children? Our hearts and our minds are transformed by God. Even after our hearts and minds are changed, how can we do good when we are enslaved to sin? (Romans 7:21-25) We are set free from enslavement to sin; now we can do the good within our transformed hearts and minds instead of being forced to do evil.

We are forgiven; there is no fear in love.
We are transformed heart and mind into Gods children.
We are set free from the bondage of sin so that even in this flesh we can do the good we each and our Father want.


Keith

[keithareilly]

We were slaves to sin ...
Romans 7:14-15
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Evidence our hearts were transformed while we were still slaves to sin ...
17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Notice above it says no longer am I the one doing it. Before, it was I. Now, it is no longer I.

While our hearts and minds were transformed, our flesh was still enslaved to Sin and we were still prisoners of flesh.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

How wretched to have new hearts and minds yet still be enslaved. We need to be saved from this situation.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

We are saved from this situation.
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The hope is: the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I would argue that we are set free from sin upon our rebirth, but that we in general don't know how to live that way, so God teaches us over the course of our lives.

I do not believe - most emphatically - that the born again child of God is a slave to sin. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom. It is for freedome that Christ made us free.

Romans 7 teaches about the separation that has occurred. Notice how Paul rounds out the chapter by saying, with my inner man I serve the law of God, but in the flesh the law of sin. Think "principles of God and principles of sin", like saying the "law of gravity". It's like the old man, the flesh, is still subject to the law of gravity - the law of sin - but the new man is not, and is free to fly. But we feel like we're not free, because the flesh is not free, and we fail to differentiate between flesh and spirit, old man and new.

But notice how these are two concurrent situations. We are at the same time both slaves to God and slaves to sin.

So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

How can such a thing be?

Only in that the old man is bound by sin, but the new man is not.

The old man is under condemnation, the new man is not.

The old man is under requirement by God to be righteous, and it has failed.
The new man is made righteous, no failure, since the work was not mine - I fail - it was Jesus.

Transformation is we are reborn a new people who have never sinned and never will. We can't sin. Because there is no law to govern us. Romans 4, I think, teaches that only if there is no law can there be no transgression.

It's not just that God removed the guilt of our sin from us. He made us brand new people who never have sinned.

But don't let your liberty become a license to serve the lusts of the flesh. That's not what it's for.

Our hearts are pure, that is, our new hearts. The heart of flesh is incurably sick, hopelessly corrupted. The new heart, our new being, is righteous and holy.

The Law was meant for those who are not.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

I do not believe - most emphatically - that the born again child of God is a slave to sin. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom. It is for freedom that Christ made us free.

I agree when we are born again, we are free from enslavement to sin.

Before we are born again, even though we have a new mind and heart, we are not yet free.
Thus does Paul describe us being prisoners of our flesh.

A child, after being conceived, spends nine months alive in his mothers womb.
After nine months then he is born. Conception and birth are not the same event.

Having a new mind and new heart is not equivalent to being born again.
Those whom Peter addressed when he said: "repent and be baptized" already had a new mind and heart.
When Paul describes the circumstance where he is no longer the one sinning, he describes himself being a prisoner of the the flesh. The hearers of Peter were still prisoners of the flesh. They had a new heart and mind; but were not yet been born again.


Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

When we are free, we have the power to refuse to allow sin to reign in our flesh, mortal bodies.
While we are still prisoners, as Paul described, sin reigns against our will.

It is when we are born again, that we are released from being prisoners.
Therefore, being born again, being given a new heart and mind, are different events.

If this were not so, then we would never be prisoners of the flesh as Paul described.

[mark s]

I do not believe - most emphatically - that the born again child of God is a slave to sin. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Freedom. It is for freedom that Christ made us free.

I agree when we are born again, we are free from enslavement to sin.

This is good.

Before we are born again, even though we have a new mind and heart, we are not yet free.
Thus does Paul describe us being prisoners of our flesh.


A child, after being conceived, spends nine months alive in his mothers womb.
After nine months then he is born. Conception and birth are not the same event.

Having a new mind and new heart is not equivalent to being born again.

On this I most resoundingly disagree. How do you get a new mind without being born again?

Those whom Peter addressed when he said: "repent and be baptized" already had a new mind and heart.

I don't seem to remember anything like that. Can you point me to where I can read about that?

When Paul describes the circumstance where he is no longer the one sinning, he describes himself being a prisoner of the the flesh. The hearers of Peter were still prisoners of the flesh. They had a new heart and mind; but were not yet been born again.

Paul discribes two concurrent conditions. It's the same thing as if I say, with my feet, I walk, and with my hands, I hold. One does one thing, the other does another. The body of flesh born from Adam falls short of God in it's corruption. The old man always sins. The new creation of spirit born from God lives unto God. The new man always does righteousness.

And these do not change, with the exception that in our resurrection, our vile bodies of corruption will be clothed upon with incorruptability. But until then it remains in corruption. But we do not. We are new. We are from God.

But I think Jay said it very well in that it's not about the imposition of the ancient covenant of law, it's about a completely new kind of relationship with God.

If allowed, the body of flesh serving its mind of flesh will sin. We impose our wills over the flesh of corruption to use our members as instruments of righteousness. As my Lord lives through me. Not according to a listing of rules, some of which, probably nearly all, are clearly not being kept by me, or anyone.

Who keeps the sabbath? Break one law, you are a lawbreaker, and are guilty of all. Unless you are espousing such as the "Holiness Movement", who declares that if we are truly saved, we will never ever ever sin. I don't see that to be what you are saying.

But unless none of us work, cook food, travel, so forth, on the Sabbath, then we are living in a constant state of violation of the law.

Have to go . . . . sigh!

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

I've been reading and mulling over your post above since yesterday, and reading much of Exodus today. Very interesting, very engaging.

<snip>
Much love!
Mark

Hi Mark

In another forum, I was considering the following scripture, posted by a member there and came across the following which in a way confirms what I have previously poste here.

2 Peter 3:10-13: - The Day of the Lord

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for the renewed heavens and a renewed earth in which righteousness dwells.

Considering God's promises to Abraham that he would inherit the whole earth that God would show him, is confirmed in the above passage in that the world/earth that Abraham and his descendants will inherit in the fuuture is a world/earthy where righteousness abounds. The very thing that we as Christians also hold on to.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

John 8:34
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.


What does Jesus say?

If we sin we are Sin' s slaves. If we know the truth it will set us free from being enslaved.
To know the truth we must hold to Christ's teachings.

If we allow ourselves to be convinced we can never stop sinning because we are prisoners of the flesh, we are not holding to Christ's teaching.

Christ is very clear.
If we keep sinning, we are not free, we are not holding to his teachings, we do not know the truth.
If we hold to His teachings, we will know the truth, and that truth will set us free.

If we want to know where we are. Then we need to examine our own lives.

[keithareilly]

On this I most resoundingly disagree. How do you get a new mind without being born again?

We get a new mind because we are new creations with the God's Law written on our hearts and minds. (Hebrews 10:16)

In the flesh, we are created in the womb before we are born.
We were created. Then we were born.
Creation comes first, followed by birth.
Birth is not the creation process; it is the emerging, the coming forth, process.

The seed (sperm) enters the egg, a child is created, then afterwards a child is born (emerges) from the womb.
A seed enters the soil, a tiny plant is created, then the plant emerges from the ground.
The seed (word) is sown, a believer is created with God's law written on heart and mind, then the believer is born (again), emerging from slavery to sin.


Evidence our hearts were transformed while we were still slaves to sin ...
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Notice above it says So now, no longer am I the one doing it. Before, it was I. Now, it is no longer I. Before being re-created, it was I who was sinning. Then I was re-created, having a new heart and a new mind. I no longer wanted to be sinning. Yet, I was a prisoner inside my own flesh that enslaved me to Sin even when I did not want to sin. Before I can walk a new life, I must be freed from enslavement to sin; I must emerge from that slavery; I must be born again.

What is described here is being created anew; but, still being enslaved to sin. If we are not born again, we are still enslaved to sin and cannot walk in newness of life even after we have had the laws of God written on our hearts and minds. We must emerge from that slavery (born again) before we can walk in newness of life.

Christ was very clear about this. All who sin are slaves to Sin. (John 8:34)


I doubt you have a problem with being created, then, afterwards, being born.
So, why would you have a problem with being re-created, then, afterwards, being-re-born?

Keith

[Keeping Alert]

I doubt you have a problem with being created, then, afterwards, being born.
So, why would you have a problem with being re-created, then, afterwards, being-re-born?

Hi Keith,

This analogy while seems good, may not be correct.

The greek word used for 'born again' is gennao which is also translated as 'conceived' in Matthew 1:20 for Mary.

The thing is that our new birth has nothing to do with the flesh but all to do with the Spirit or our inner man.

While we may want to break down conception and birth as two different things in time, it seems to be one instantaneous thing to God regarding our rebirth.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:1-4)

In this passage, our baptism into death and raising up is all mentioned in one fell swoop.

Love in Christ,
KA

[keithareilly]

Hi KA,

Conception is definitely being addressed in these verses. What is not addressed in these verses is being born again.

Romans 7:17-20
17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The evidence of being conceived anew is the phrase So now no longer am I the one doing it.
I agree this is about conception. A new being with the Law of God on his heart and mind has been conceived. Nevertheless, that new being is not yet able to practice good. Instead, that new being continues to practice the very evil he does not want to do, evidenced by the phrase but I practice the very evil that I do not want. That new being is not yet able to exert his will over his own flesh.

I see the new being having been created, no longer wanting to do evil; but, I do not see that new being is yet able to do the good he was created to do. Therefore, because there exists a period of time where the new being exists and wants to do the good; but, is forced to do evil, the conception of our new being and us being born again (freed from enslaved to sin) cannot be the same event.

If you see something I am missing, please let me know.

Keith

[Keeping Alert]

Hi Keith,

My understanding is that the freedom from enslavement from sin is something like baptism. the water baptism is what we see on the outside but the actual (or significant) baptism had already happened when we trusted Jesus at that one moment in time.

Similarly, our freedom of enslavement from sin which we would like to see on the outside is just our human effort to reveal what has already happened inside at the moment of time we placed our faith in Christ.

My understanding is that nothing we do in the flesh aids or hinders our salvation in its whole spectrum. Not one iota. If our external evidence (fleshly) of being free from the enslavement of sin is necessary for our being born again, then I am fearful.

I believe that is what Paul is saying in Romans 7 which leads on to the great declaration of Romans 8:1 Therefore, There is no condemnation to those who walk in the Spirit... is that everything is done in the spirit for us... There is nothing to add and nothing can be taken away... but we can live in the Spirit which are the privilege of those in Christ (those not in Christ do not have this option) or we can live in the flesh as Paul rightly struggles with because Christ had not redeemed anything of the flesh and therefore, wants all of us to die to the flesh... which is not the same as being born again imho...

Best regards,
KA

[keithareilly]

Hi KA,

Part of our salvation is being freed from sin. Jesus is very clear about this.
John 8:31
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Romans 6:1,12,14
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

I think it is pretty clear our salvation includes being freed from sin. We are no longer slaves to sin.

I do not think there is any reason to fear. Instead, I think there is reason to rejoice.
1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

This topic is about perspectives: Legal and Faith.
The legal perspective fears not meeting the requirements of the law. This is what gives Sin power.
The faith perspective is about believing in the Father and Son and what Christ accomplished on the cross so that we may live a new live of righteousness through faith instead of being subject to fear of not meeting the laws requirements.

Our salvation includes:
Having our sins forgiven: past, present, and future.
Becoming a new creation with Gods laws written on our hearts and minds instead - motivation to do good.
Being freed from sin so that we can do the good works we desire to do in our new hearts and minds - freedom to do good.

Look at this verse
2 Tim 3:1-7
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


This verse is kind of busy but there are some interesting things in this verse. Some subtle things buries among a lot of evil deeds. Notice that in the times of the end, the are people who deny the power and do not come to the full knowledge of the truth. It is the truth that sets us free (John 8:31) so if people do not understand the truth, they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.

Our salvation includes being freed from the enslavement to sin.

I don't want you to fear. I want you to know you are free.

[keithareilly]

KA


Matthew 7:13-1413 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The road is narrow: our past sins are forgiven if we sin in the future God forgives us; the law is no longer imposed upon us, it is incorporated into us by being written on our hearts and minds thus we are new creations; we have been freed from enslavement to sin so that we may serve God, accomplishing the desires to do good our new hearts and minds have - we no longer are forced to sin.

The legal perspective enslaves us. It makes us fear when we have not yet worked out our salvation and continue to sin. The deceptions of Satan try to convince us that because we have not yet worked out our salvation, and therefore we still sin, the idea that we can be free of Satan and no longer sin cannot be true.

The lie Satan puts forth is that we must accept living in this world under enslavement to Satan. That is a lie.

[mark s]

. . . so if people do not understand the truth, they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.

Our salvation includes being freed from the enslavement to sin.

I don't want you to fear. I want you to know you are free.

Hi Keith,

I'd like to jump back in here.

I'm looking at what you wrote above, I'm seeing what seems to me to be circular.

They are slaves to sin because they do not know that they are not slaves to sin.

But if they could know they are not slaves to sin, even if they do not know, then they are not slaves to sin, even if they do not know.

Your thoughts?

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

I am reminded of this passage: -

Genesis 4:3-7: - 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

The word "rule" in verse 7 above also implies the meaning of "having dominion over." If we take up our cross, then we will have dominion over Satan, because we will be exercising our dominion over Satan. In the New Testament Christ told us how we can "do well" by believing in Him and His Saving Grace towards us. If we pass from the destiny of the second death, into the promise of eternal life, then we are renewed, i.e. being born once again, into life.

Like Cain, if we do well, we will be acceptable, but if we do not exercise the dominion of Christ in our lives such that we become renewed creations through His saving Grace by believing in Him with all of our heart and being, then like Abraham, if we believe in God then it will be counted unto us as righteousness.

God's complaint with the Israelites was that although they turned their heads towards God, their body was turn away from him to hid the sin of idolatry in their lives. They knew the law/requirements of God, but the did not exercise the law of salvation in their lives.

So also with us, if we do well, then we are accepted and seen in God's eyes as righteous.

Shalom

[mark s]

Wondering, how to square this:

Like Cain, if we do well, we will be acceptable,

With Ephesians 1, which tells us we are accepted in the beloved.

?

Much love!
mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Mark,

Yea, it is a bit cyclic.

If we act on what we believe and discover what we believe is true, then what we believe becomes what we know. I think that is what James is saying below when he describes our works perfecting our faith.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

On the other hand, if we believe something, and each time we act upon it we experience it does not work, then we think what we believed was false. We conclude what we believed was not true. So we say to ourselves "that is not true". What we believed still becomes knowledge, but it cycles the opposite direction of what we believed.


Notice what Jesus says below: If you continue in My word, then ... you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Before knowing the truth, and therefore, being freed, we must continue in His word so that our faith transforms into knowledge. For it is knowledge of the truth that sets us free.

John 8:31
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I'm afraid you may be missing my point, and perhaps I was trying to be too circumspect.

The problem with this circular reasoning is that it is not logical, and negates itself every time.

I'm not talking about a process of testing and proving faith, repeating, and building, or, testing without a true faith, and repeating until it is gone for lack of results.

I'm talking about the line of reasoning that says we are slaves to sin if we think we are, whether we are or not.

keithareilly wrote:

. . . so if people do not understand the truth, they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.

You are saying people can be "not slaves to sin", but if they don't know they are "not slaves to sin", then they "are slaves to sin". This is a case of saying that two things that negate each other are both true. But that's not true.

You see, if someone does not know they are not a slave to sin, and not knowing makes them a slave to sin, then what is to be known? They are a slave to sin, and telling themself they are not won't make it so.

Either you are, or you are not.

I think I've concluded we have very very different ideas.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark,

Matthew 13:44
"The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

The man who bought the field knew the treasure was in the field.
The man who sold the field did not know; for it was hidden.

Not all believers know we have been set free from sin.
If we do not know, we do not reap the benefits of the treasure.
The treasure is there. It is our lack of knowledge of the treasure that prevents us from gaining its benefits.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I'm curious, it seems like you're not responding to my objection towards the circular reasoning, and I'm wondering how clear I am being.

Could you restate to me in your own words what my objection is?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Mark,

You think the cyclic behavior I described lacks logic and reason therefore the conclusions cannot be true.

Here is an example of God's cyclic behavior.

Matthew 13:12
"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

Cyclical processes of gaining and losing are true.