Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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keithareilly wrote:Hi Mark,
You think the cyclic behavior I described lacks logic and reason therefore the conclusions cannot be true.
Here is an example of God's cyclic behavior.
Matthew 13:12
"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
mark s wrote:Hi Keith,
I'm curious, it seems like you're not responding to my objection towards the circular reasoning, and I'm wondering how clear I am being.
Could you restate to me in your own words what my objection is?
Much love!
Mark
. . . so if people do not understand the truth, [then] they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they [then] deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.
I'm talking about the line of reasoning that says we are slaves to sin if we think we are, whether we are or not.
. . . so if people do not understand the truth, they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.
keithareilly wrote:Mark,
I think a better way to say it is. As we work out our salvation, we come to understand we have been completely freed from enslavement to sin. It is like looking back on life and saying I wish I knew then what I know now.
When I started this topic I wanted to address the differences between law and faith.
Romans 10:
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
When we worry if we are going to go to Heaven when we die, we are looking at things from the perspective of LAW.
When we fear we will be condemned because we have sinned we are focusing on the LAW.
When we accept that we have been saved, even though we have not yet experienced all aspect of the salvation made available to us, and recognize that the phrase "working out our salvation" is about struggling to understanding our salvation and discerning truth from lies, instead of trying to make sure we make it to Heaven, then we are focusing on salvation by Faith instead of salvation by works of the law. Ironically, as we struggle to learn and see the truth and overcome doubts and deceptions placed before us, then we are able to reign over our flesh and fulfill the requirements of law written on our hearts and minds by actually using our flesh to accomplish the good written on our hearts and minds. As we rein over our flesh, causing our flesh to accomplish, here and now, the good works we desire in our hearts and minds, our faith is perfected. We express the good that is in our hearts and minds through our actions, and in so doing, we change the reality of this world by accomplishing good instead of evil.
Our salvation transforms us into: The good man, [who], brings out of his good treasure, what is good.
Matt 12:35
"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
I cannot think of a better summary of the results of being saved than transforming from the evil man to the good man.
.. Our sins are forgiven
.. The law of God is written on our hearts and minds
.. We are freed from enslavement to sin so we can accomplish the good that has been written on our hearts and minds
keithareilly wrote:Mark,
I think a better way to say it is. As we work out our salvation, we come to understand we have been completely freed from enslavement to sin. It is like looking back on life and saying I wish I knew then what I know now.
mark s wrote:When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?
Much love!
Mark
shorttribber wrote:Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
mark s wrote:When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?
Much love!
Mark
mark s wrote:Just to remember to say . . . Jesus changed the Law . . . but Jesus does not change.
mark s wrote:He made all foods clean. Law was changed.
keithareilly wrote:mark s wrote:When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?
Much love!
Mark
Matt 22:35-40
35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Matt 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
These two commandments are the entire LAW.
Everything else, like: "do not murder", "do not commit adultery" are a subset OR manifestations of these two commandments.
I do not know how to be clearer on this.
Keith
mark s wrote:What was not clean, became clean.
But you who would keep the law, do you not know what the Law says? The same one who commanded do not murder also commanded the dedication of the firstborn with animal sacrifice. Do you do that?
Much love!
Mark
mark s wrote:Oh, and lest I become of the same, yes, I do understand about types and shadows. There are very certain particular places in Scripture that these are mentioned, although I know people who mention more than I see in the Bible. But it's important to know those that are there, and what they mean. Of course, the Bible defines each for us so there need not be any question.
One sin is the breaking of ALL the Law mark
keithareilly wrote:When we accept that we have been saved, even though we have not yet experienced all aspect of the salvation made available to us, and recognize that the phrase "working out our salvation" is about struggling to understanding our salvation and discerning truth from lies, instead of trying to make sure we make it to Heaven, then we are focusing on salvation by Faith instead of salvation by works of the law.
keithareilly wrote: Ironically, as we struggle to learn and see the truth and overcome doubts and deceptions placed before us, then we are able to reign over our flesh and fulfill the requirements of law written on our hearts and minds by actually using our flesh to accomplish the good written on our hearts and minds. As we rein over our flesh, causing our flesh to accomplish, here and now, the good works we desire in our hearts and minds, our faith is perfected. We express the good that is in our hearts and minds through our actions, and in so doing, we change the reality of this world by accomplishing good instead of evil.
Romans 7:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[b]Romans 3:10-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10) as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
11) There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12) All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
Romans 10:4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes
Romans 10:13 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 7:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
I must say that I am always very frightened of a Salvation by Works theory (not saying that you are mentioning this), and I am also frightened by those who feel that they can live a perfect life; perform good works without the assistance of the Holy Spirit; and believe that they must do good works in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I have found many people who believe this way. Some are often high minded, meaning that they have a very high spiritual opinion of themselves - and expect others to think, or feel the same; they judge others in a non-scriptural fashion; live double-lives; very hypocritical; and are very easily swayed by sensationalism to include deep persuasion by very charismatic leaders and speakers - to the point of being delusional and fooled about Salvation according to Scripture.
keithareilly wrote:Thanks Mark,
I appreciate your encouragement.
I have been thinking about this since my last post.
But Moses' hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus his hands were steady until the sun set.
Keith
mark s wrote:I asked my wife one time if she ever thought about sharing her testimony at our church. Her reply was immediate, "Why would I want to do that?"
keithareilly wrote:Your life is evidence you are a better man than am I.
Mr Baldy wrote:
As I stand there trying to behold ALL His Glory; Power; and Awesome Presence - He will reach down, wipe the ever flowing tears from my weeping eyes; and say: "Well Done, my good and faithful servant." He will say this to me, and to you - and to all who believe in Him. Not because we deserve it, or are worthy - but because of His Eternal Mercy for those whom He Foreknew by becoming a Living Sacrifice.
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