Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Repent and be Baptized

[keithareilly]

Moving On ...

Acts 2:37-39
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Repentance and baptism are a part of what saves us. Regardless of whether you interpret ‘for’ in the phrase “for the forgiveness of your sins” as ‘receiving the forgiveness', or, as ‘because of the forgiveness', repentance and baptism are important parts of the salvation process.

The verse says: if we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, we will receive the Holy Spirit.
This verse is similar in logic to 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If p then q.
If we want to be certain we receive the Holy Spirit, then we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The false logic of: If not p then not q
Does that mean if we are not baptized in the name of Jesus, we cannot receive the Holy Spirit? No.

Just as one may be forgiven without first confessing, so one also may receive the Holy Spirit without first being baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [a]message. 45 All the [b]circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Nevertheless, even if we receive the Holy Spirit first, we are still to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

When Peter was talking to those who crucified Christ, he said "Repent and be baptized".
Peter did not say "Repent then be baptized".

'AND' is a logical term meaning BOTH.
if (p and q) is true, then both p, q must each be true.
(p and q) cannot be true if one or both of p, q is false.

'IF AND ONLY IF' p then q is a conditional expression of (p and q).
IF AND ONLY IF means both of the following at the same time:
1) if p then q;
2) if q then p.

p can only be true if q is true, q can only be true if p is true.
Thus is IF AND ONLY IF p then q a conditional expression of (p and q).

'Repent and be baptized' expressed conditionally is: IF AND ONLY IF One repents, is one baptized.

Because IF AND ONLY IF p then q is a conditional expression of (p and q)
Every person who was baptized, repented.
if a person did not repent, that person was not baptized.

Therefore, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is evidence of repentance.
Not being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is evidence of non-repentance.

Thus we have Acts 8:38
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Keith

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

You are saying here that if I haven't been water baptized, it means I haven't repented? Is that correct?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Keith,

You are saying here that if I haven't been water baptized, it means I haven't repented? Is that correct?

Much love!
Mark

Not quite.

One who refuses to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ has not repented.

Acts 8:38
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Clearly, the eunuch repented. But had not yet been baptized.

When we are baptized into Christ Jesus, we are set free from enslavement to sin (See verse 6-7 below).
Therefore, Satan tries to convince us not to be baptized.
Satan will argue: you are saved by faith alone and do not need to be baptized.
Why? Because he knows if one is baptized, he has lost a slave.
Satan does not want to loose his slaves to Christ.
A person who refuses to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, is choosing to remain Satan's slave.
They may not be aware that is what they are choosing, but it is what they are choosing.
Hence, Satan tries to deceive believers into thinking that faith, without works of faith, is all you need.


Romans 6:1-7 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

Here is where we definitely part ways.

I think I have a very different view of baptism than you.

I'd suggest looking at Ephesians 4, the first several verses, and Romans 6, the first half of the chapter.

There is one baptism, and that baptism is into Christ's death, burial, and ressurection. We have a tradition of water baptism, but that's not what saves you. It's the inquiry of a good conscience as we are right with God by faith.

Neither can we say that the born again will always do such and such a work, or they are not saved, aside from their faith enduring to the end.

But when you say "repent", what exactly do you mean?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

But when you say "repent", what exactly do you mean?

Peter was addressing those who crucified Christ. He said "Repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ".
Not everyone did. Those who did, repented, and their decision to be baptized is the evidence of their repentance.
Those who did not get baptized did not believe they did wrong by crucifying Christ.

The parable of the two sons where one says no he will not work in the field, then he does work in the field is an example of repentance.

If I behave one way, the AFTERwards behave another way, that is evidence I once thought one way, then AFTERwards thought another way.

AFTER-mind results in AFTER-actions.

Keith

[keithareilly]

I'd suggest looking at Ephesians 4, the first several verses, and Romans 6, the first half of the chapter.

I went back and read them. Also, I quoted Romans 6:1-7 when I made my post as evidence for what I said.


What do you see differently?

[mark s]

But when you say "repent", what exactly do you mean?

Peter was addressing those who crucified Christ. He said "Repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ".
Not everyone did. Those who did, repented, and their decision to be baptized is the evidence of their repentance.
Those who did not get baptized did not believe they did wrong by crucifying Christ.

The parable of the two sons where one says no he will not work in the field, then he does work in the field is an example of repentance.

If I behave one way, the AFTERwards behave another way, that is evidence I once thought one way, then AFTERwards thought another way.

AFTER-mind results in AFTER-actions.

Keith

Hi Keith,

Very true, a changed mind results in changed actions. Which actions?

How do we go from the true baptism to the requirement of a water baptism? If the real and only baptism is into Jesus, in His death, burial and resurrection, and if this is how we are born again, then this is not water baptism, which follows rebirth, was that right?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

How do we go from the true baptism to the requirement of a water baptism? If the real and only baptism is into Jesus, in His death, burial and resurrection, and if this is how we are born again, then this is not water baptism, which follows rebirth, was that right?

Many people see baptism with spirit and baptism with water as different. They are ONE baptism.

The New Covenant is an agreement between two parties. Notice the words "each, and" highlighted below.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Each believer appeals to God.
1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And God pledges to the agreement with each believer.
Ephesians 1:13-14 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


There is one Baptism made of two parts; water (Adam) and Spirit (God).
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Being born of the Spirit is not enough. One must also be born of water.
Therefore, Cornelius was baptized in the name of Jesus even after receiving the Holy Spirit.

[keithareilly]

Acts 2:37-39
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptizedin the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

When the people asked Brethren, What shall we do? Even though they experienced AFTER-mind, They had not yet received the Holy Spirit. This is evidenced by Peter's telling them to be baptized and they will receive the Holy Spirit.

Will receive is a promise of a future receipt. It is evidence they had not yet received the Spirit.

[mark s]

Faith + Baptism = Salvation.

Faith + _______ = a problem, for me.

Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hello

I have a problem with this prescriptive discussion as it is stetting out the hoops I must pass through to know that I have salvation.

If I come to believe in Christ and that through Him I gain my inheritance/gift of everlasting life, but then fail because of circumstances that takes away my ability to then be baptised as the second hoop that I must pass through to know for sure that I have gained my salvation, then why do I not have my salvation?

God said that He preferred the circumcision of our hearts rather than all of the sacrifices that we could make or bring to the Lord.

Paul in Ephesians, speaks of the need to circumcise our hearts by the renewing of our minds and to then put on God's covering of the personhood that God had intended mankind to be since the time of creation, but he was not prescriptive in Ephesians as to all of the steps that one had to take to be reassured of having received God's gift of salvation. It is not what we do that gives us our righteous, but it is certainly about what God counts towards our righteousness. What God requires of me to be counted towards my righteousness may be completely different for every person except for the very act of believing in Him by faith and trusting Him to deliver His promises towards us all.

It is God who draws all to himself. Our responsibility is to respond to God's drawing of ourselves to him on a personal one on one basis between God and myself. God's acceptance of our response towards His drawing of ourselves to him is His judgement call but even when Cain's sacrifice was rejected when he initially brought it, God still was attempting to draw Cain to Himself within the confines of God's Salvation Covenant with all of mankind. As far as I know, nothing has changed since then. It is what God counts towards our righteousness that matters, even though, over the unfolding of time, the sacrifice process has been modified by God Himself, the outcome has not changed.


Oh, but wait, we now have a brand new covenant thingy with God that is based on Grace and our ability to name and claim our hearts desire.

Know what I mean? But by all means, you can jump through all of man's hoop to get there to be acceptable by man's constriants.

Shalom

[Abiding in His Word]

I have a problem with this prescriptive discussion as it is stetting out the hoops I must pass through to know that I have salvation.

I think you're saying the same thing I said last year when I posted Becoming A Believer and listing all the "systems" apparently necessary to be saved. For example:

* Believe
* Confess with your mouth
* Public confession
* Baptism
* Faith
* Repent for forgiveness of sin
* Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior
* Becoming "Born Again"

I concluded (and still do) that there is no "one-size-fits-all" method for salvation but God knows one's heart regardless of whether or not we have used the scriptural words.

It generated some agreement and some disagreement but worth a look anyway.

In that thread, Jericho astutely said:

"God made it extremely easy to be saved, just confess and believe. We are the ones who make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[keithareilly]

I have quoted scripture.

Please present arguments based upon scripture.

One would think An AFTER-mind would agree with what scriptures say instead of arguing against what they say.

[Jay Ross]

Keith,

I do not ask a person if they have ever given their lives to Christ in their past, or if they have ticked all of the boxes/hoops because it does not tell me where that person is when I am interacting with them, i.e. that they have salvation.

Rather, I ask them how their relationship, with the God that they are presently worshipping, is going for them, as this question exposes the truth of the matter concerning their heart and their relationship with the God that matters.

Their response will tell me where they are at, at that time of my inquiry. My response to their answer will either cause me to praise God for their love of Him or tears as I learn of their lostness and my need to ask God to include them in those who He is drawing to himself, and to then believe and trust that God will answer mny prayer for that person. I will also ask God how best I can become part of His drawing process of that person to Him in love.

The reality is that God does not need us to know the scriptures fully to be part of those who draw others to Christ, only that our heart is towards Him and overflowing with His Love for all of mankind. I am often more successful if I truthfully allow my warts and all to exposed for others to see.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

The Topic is Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Repent and be Baptized
The Topic is not Opinion: What I believe despite what the scriptures say.

I have quoted scripture.
Please present arguments based upon scripture.
One would think An AFTER-mind would agree with what scriptures say instead of arguing against what they say.

If you disagree with what I have posted, show me I am wrong.

[Abiding in His Word]

This topic is "Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Repent and be Baptized"

It is not "Opinion: What I believe despite what the scriptures say."

I'll just say that imho it's a mistake to limit scripture that speaks only to repentance and baptism and then to try to fit them into a "must/have to/should/ought to" sequence in that order.

I, for one, did not repent first and been baptized afterward. I didn't believe I was a sinner since I diligently followed all the rules. I didn't know the Bible said I must repent and be baptized since I had never opened a Bible. As a catholic, we read from the catechism, but after reading "The Cross and the Switchblade" by David Wilkerson, I merely read the prayer at the end of the book. Then at a prayer meeting at a catholic high school, they were speaking about a baptism in the Holy Spirit. So I went home and said to the Lord, "Lord, they said you have something more for me and I want all you have for me." Immediately, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. Then after I started attending an Assembly of God, they encouraged water baptism so I got baptized even though I had been baptized as an infant. Then I bought a Bible and the Holy Spirit began to convict me of sin.

All that is to say that it's not logical (to me) to interpret scripture in an effort to create a rigid sequence that must be followed.

My apologies if I took the thread in an unintended direction. I thought I was within the context.

[keithareilly]

Hi Abiding,

Good point.

In logic, "If, Then" is not sequential; it is conditional.
Logic addresses state, not sequence.

Were it sequential, Cornelius could not have received the Holy Spirit before being baptized in the Name of Jesus.

If p then q means if p is true then q must be true.
if p then q does not mean if p is true then q becomes true.

If and only if is not sequential either.
if and only if p then q means if one condition is true then the other condition is also true.

Notice the verse below uses the word and not afterwards.
The sequence of the wording may represent a common sequence of the events, but it does not mean the events must occur in that sequence.

Acts 2:37-39
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

In the above verse we have the question "Brethren, what shall we do?"
The question being addressed is: How do those who killed God's Son change their state before God.
The answer is: Conditionals (p and q and r) all need to changed to the proper state.

"Saved" describes one's state.

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

Being baptized is evidence of repentance.
This is not a logical, if then, conditional. Instead, this is behavioral. Because you repented, you chose to obey. The Unrepentant do not obey.

Faith is like a mustard seed. As it roots grow deeper within you, it uproots the sin in your flesh resulting in continuous revealing of sin within the flesh along with the continuous repentance as the sin is uprooted by roots of faith.

Repentance is a mind set of walking the straight and narrow. The further down the road one goes, the more sins are left behind. Choosing to leave the highway to enter the straight and narrow is just as much an act of repentance as each step along the straight and narrow. Every step you took toward the straight and narrow was an act of repentance. Even those steps you took while on the highway when you were still in search of the straight and narrow. Everyone has there own narrow.

Keith

[Ready1]

Here's another worthwhile one to chew on...

1Pe 3:18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but He died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but He was raised to life in the Spirit.
1Pe 3:19 So He went and preached to the spirits in prison—
1Pe 3:20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
1Pe 3:21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I guess I have always seen water baptism as the "...answer of a good conscience toward God."

Simple question: If it ranked as a requirement for salvation, how could Jesus have promised the thief on the cross that he would be with him in Paradise that very day?

On the other hand, there is a tremendous blessing in water baptism for everyone who participates in it. If there were not, why would Peter have baptized the household of Cornelius when he had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit?


Just askin'.

[Spreading Salt]

Luke 23

39 One of the criminals hanging there hurled insults at him. “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other one spoke up and rebuked the first, saying, “Have you no fear of God? You’re getting the same punishment as he is. 41 Ours is only fair; we’re getting what we deserve for what we did. But this man did nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Yeshua, remember me when you come as King.” 43 Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

Keith, are you suggesting that Yeshua told a fib? According to scripture, this thief was saved without baptism.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I see only two commandments for the believer. Trust Jesus, and love others. 1 John.

"Surely if you are an 'after-mind' you will see the same thing I see in it, right?" Now - I only say that to make a point. I do not believe we should be questioning someone's salvation based on how they see baptism.

Of course, that more reflects my view.

Either it's required for salvation or it's not. And since salvation is by faith, and not works (Eph 2), then it's not required. And therefore how can you hold guilty those whom God has justified?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

OK, We need to back up a bit.


Romans 10:05-13
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Righteousness based upon Law vs righteousness based upon faith.
Righteousness based upon Law
Those who are about righteousness based upon Law are concerned about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Their definition of "saved" is about who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. This is righteousness based upon Law.

Righteousness based upon Faith
Those who are about righteousness based upon faith are about the Word being in their heart and their mouth and that these two result in righteousness and salvation, respectively. Here and now.


Righteousness based upon Law is about where you are going after you die. Righteousness based upon faith is about experiencing salvation here and now. Asking about the thief on the cross is focusing on where one is going after one dies.

I am not discussing where we go when we die. I am discussing what has been made available for us to experience here and now.


Keith

[mark s]

I personally don't understand what you are getting at.

You've stated that someone who "refuses" water baptism hasn't repented, which would mean, at least to me, that they are not saved.

Now, if you are saying that an unrepentant sinner is saved, then we'll disagree on that.

Either a person is saved, or they are not.

If someone is saved, they are not under any law. Only what Jesus tells them to do.

I suppose then that it is your assertion that it's Jesus' instruction to all to be baptized. I believe you are saying that we receive better from God in this life if we are water baptized, is that correct?

I'd respond that we are accepted in the beloved, and that we cannot add one iota to that.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

I personally don't understand what you are getting at.

You've stated that someone who "refuses" water baptism hasn't repented, which would mean, at least to me, that they are not saved.

Now, if you are saying that an unrepentant sinner is saved, then we'll disagree on that.

Either a person is saved, or they are not.

If someone is saved, they are not under any law. Only what Jesus tells them to do.

I suppose then that it is your assertion that it's Jesus' instruction to all to be baptized. I believe you are saying that we receive better from God in this life if we are water baptized, is that correct?

I'd respond that we are accepted in the beloved, and that we cannot add one iota to that.

Much love!
Mark

Mark, I am struggling with communication.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

The word Therefore means there is a purpose for being baptized.
The phrase walk in newness of life is about how we walk in this life, not the next.
Baptism, is a part of what might change our behavior, here and now.
Might means there is no guarantee.

Romans 6:6-7
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

So, men are enslaved to sin, then we are baptized, which results in each us being freed from enslavement to sin.
Once freed, we are now longer forced to sin, but have the option to not sin should we choose.
The word might is there because now that we are free from enslavement to sin, we might choose to stop sinning or we might not.
The choice is ours.

[mark s]

And I would argue that this is not talking about being immersed into water. It is being immersed into Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection.

Repentance is to have traded the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ. We have been born again. And this happens by joining us with Jesus - I have been co-crucified with Christ, but I'm still alive! But it's not me! It is Christ living in me. The liFe 'I' live, I live by the faith that's from Jesus. He loved me, and gave Himself for me.

There is only one baptism. And the baptism which Scripture describes saving us in into Jesus. This is the true baptism of the Holy Spirit, began on Pentecost, continuing in each new believer as they believe.

To me, repentance and baptism and saving faith are essentially one and the same.

Jesus comes to me, and I believe, so He comes into me, and I am new.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark,

Acts 2:37-39
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [a]message. 45 All the [b]circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Peter was very clear. Baptism in the name of Jesus and baptism of the Holy Spirit are distinct and both part of our salvation.

If only receiving the Holy Spirit is necessary, why does Peter instruct baptism in the Name of Jesus and why does Peter instruct Baptism in the name of Jesus even after one, Cornelius, has received the Holy Spirit?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Abiding in His Word]

Recognizing the importance of understanding scripture in the context of who was speaking, to whom was it addressed, and how the hearers would understand it, perhaps we should consider how baptism would be understood by the Jews who would hear it.

But in first-century Judaism, baptism had a different meaning. In the book of Leviticus, God instructs Jews to cleanse themselves from ritual impurities, contracted through such acts as touching a corpse or a leper. Washing primarily fulfilled the legal requirements of ritual purity so that Jews could sacrifice at the Temple. Later, as "God-fearers" or "righteous" Gentiles expressed their desire to convert to Judaism, priests broadened the rite's meaning, and along with circumcision, performed baptism as a sign of the covenant given to Abraham.

link

Washing and bathing were of great importance throughout scripture both OT and into the NT. So we find Jesus and Paul speaking of baptism in keeping with the purpose of cleansing and washing. But when the Jewish converts to Christianity began to complain that the gentile converts were not placing the same importance of baptism and circumcision , we find Paul and Barnabas reporting this following great debates with the Pharisees:

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:  that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." Act 15:28-29 

Today, I think we view baptism more of an outward act of identification with Jesus who was baptized by John, as well as signifying the washing and cleansing from sin.

Christian baptism today also symbolizes repentance, cleansing, and commitment, but Jesus has given it a different emphasis. Christian baptism is a mark of one’s identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is representative of a cleansing that is complete and a commitment that is the natural response of one who has been made new.

link

[keithareilly]

Princes and Princesses live in kingdoms before they inherit kingdoms.
Part of our salvation is entering of the Kingdom of Heaven while we are still here, in the flesh. The Kingdom of Heaven is available to us, here and now. We enter it, here and now, through water and Spirit. People enter the Kingdom of Heaven while in the flesh. This has been going on for nearly 2000 years. While we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven while in the flesh, we can not Inherit while in the flesh.

Water and spirit required to enter.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of Heaven available to be entered by men nearly 2000 years ago.
Matthew 10:5-7 5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7“And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Matthew 11:11-12 11“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force

Jesus disciples were water baptizing before Jesus was crucified.
John 4:1-2 1Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John2(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

The Holy Spirit was not available to us until after Jesus left
John 16:7-11 7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Sons of God enter in the Kingdom before they inherit the Kingdom.
1 Corr 1:15 50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[Abiding in His Word]

Part of our salvation is entering of the Kingdom of Heaven while we are still here, in the flesh.

Keith, we are not saved by baptism. We are saved by the work of Christ on the cross.

The Kingdom of Heaven is available to us, here and now. We enter it, here and now, through water and Spirit. People enter the Kingdom of Heaven while in the flesh. This has been going on for nearly 2000 years. While we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven while in the flesh, we can not Inherit while in the flesh.

We can, indeed, enter the Kingdom here and now because it is a spiritual realm available to all who have been born again...not in the sense of a physical/fleshly birth but a spiritual birth.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 

[keithareilly]

Abiding wrote

Keith, we are not saved by baptism. We are saved by the work of Christ on the cross.

1 Peter 23:16-21
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Noah and eight persons were brought safely from the evils of the world through water.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.

It says what it says.

[keithareilly]

If you want to enter a country and be accepted, enter properly.
If you want to be considered a thief, enter improperly.

What is proper entry for the Kingdom of Heaven?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What happens to those who enter improperly?
Matthew 22:11-14 11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Enter properly and the benefits available are available to you.
Enter improperly and the benefits are not available to you.

[Abiding in His Word]

If you want to enter a country and be accepted, enter properly.
If you want to be a thief, enter improperly.

What is proper for the Kingdom of Heaven?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What happens to those who enter improperly?

But earlier you said, "The sequence of the wording may represent a common sequence of the events, but it does not mean the events must occur in that sequence."

So let's examine this:

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death...Rom 6:4 (Have we literally been buried?)

 ... and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; Col 2:11 (what of those who have not been circumcised in the flesh?)

....  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come...Heb 6:5 (does the Bible actually have a taste?) 

We have to discover which passages are to be literally taken, or is baptism seen in a figurative, symbolic and/or metaphorical sense. That will be found in examining the context, persons being addressed, how it would be understood, etc. For example, in reading the passage in John 3, it's obvious Nicodemus, who is a Pharisee, cannot grasp the meaning of a second birth Jesus mentions. He is only familiar with a birth of the flesh. Jesus understands his confusion and continues with a contrast to help Nicodemus see a "different" kind of birth....one which is a spiritual birth. But he graciously includes the one Nicodemus is referring to and is familiar and continues with His contrast between flesh and spirit. Certainly He gave Nicodemus something to ponder.

[keithareilly]

Acts 8:38
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Do you think the water they came across as they went along the road was imaginary or some kind of symbolic item?
I think it was probably ... water. And I think this is pretty clear they were talking about water baptism. Just as addressed in 1 Peter 3:20b,23.
Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.

Does one have to be baptized with water to enter the kingdom of God? Yes. Water and Spirit as Christ said.
Does it have to be in some kind of order? No.

When you find out what it is God wants of you, do what God wants of you; just like the eunuch did.

[keithareilly]

Romans 6: 3-7
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

Abiding,

Look at the red part above. This verse lets us know it was common for believers to not been made aware of the importance of baptism. It is not a new problem. The lack of knowledge and understanding has been around since the first century. These verses are explaining why it is important and lets us know the benefits we believers experience over the unbelievers. Our salvation includes being freed from enslavement to sin. Which is experienced by we believers not the unbelievers.

My objective is to point out the things that are available to we believers.
1 Tim 4:10 talks about "especially of believers" this implies believers experience more than unbelievers.
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

In these topics, I am addressing benefits made available to you and I and all who believe and how those benefits are made available to us. I am not condemning people or saying they have not been saved. I am saying here is an aspect of our salvation and here is how we receive that portion.

Aspect: Forgiveness of sin, was made available through Christ on the Cross for all men.
Aspect: Freedom from enslavement to sin, is made available to us when we are baptized.
Aspect: Inheriting the Kingdom, accomplished after shedding our flesh, just as the man on the cross next to Christ.

Salvation has many aspects and I want to discuss what things God has made available to us and how we obtain and experience them.

I am not looking for arguments about who is saved and who is not saved. Those are topics for those who view things from a legal perspective. I am discussing what has been made available to we believers through God's grace in the here and now and how we obtain those benefits and how we experience those benefits and how they improve our lives in this world.


So AGAIN.
Jesus paid the price for all men's sins when he died on the cross. Therefore, all men have been saved from having to die for their own sins.

When a person is born water and spirit, in any order, he is saved from enslavement to sin.

When the mortal puts on the immortal he is saved from the corruption he fights constantly within his flesh and may inherit (not just enter) the kingdom of God. The man on the cross with Christ shed his flesh that day and entered paradise with Christ.

Salvation (being saved) has many aspects.
People are lumping them all together under the mistaken idea that salvation (being saved) is all benefits lumped together and received at one time and all caused by one event. They are not, the different aspects of our salvation come at different times under different circumstances and are caused by different events. Yes, they all stem from Christ; for He is THE VINE (the stem). Yet, not one of us here on this board has yet shed our mortal flesh and put on immortality and inherited the kingdom of God. One day we each shall be saved from corrupted flesh thus experiencing that part of our salvation. We have not yet experienced every aspect of salvation (being Saved).

[keithareilly]

Mark,

Mark 16:16
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned .

If belief is all that is needed, why does it not just say has believed shall be saved?
Why is the phrase and has been baptized included?

Mark,

The questions are not rhetorical.

This topic is about logic and interpretation. What I am see seeing in the responses are people choosing one scripture over another. This verse says 'this' and I agree with this verse. That verse says 'that', I agree with 'that' verse.

If verse 'A' says we are saved by faith and verse 'B' says we are saved by baptism, then why do people choose A or B instead of A and B. Why do people choose between them as if they were in conflict with each other instead of accepting both are true and not in conflict with each other. If the scriptures say 'this' and the scriptures say 'that' then if the scriptures are true, then both 'this' and 'that' must be true.


People have actual assumed I am saying Christ lied to the man on the cross next to him. Why do they think this way? Because they choose which scriptures to believe instead of accepting they are all true. This is equivalent to saying "not all scripture are true". I do not think people realize their beliefs are based upon the idea not all scripture are true.

It appears some are viewing the scripture from the logical perspective of Either, Or instead of And. Consequently, they are unwittingly choosing which scripture to believe and concluding some scripture are false. It would be better to believe all scriptures are true and recognize the conflicts perceived are in ones belief system and spend the effort to work out the conflicts in order to gain a better understanding of the extent and depth of our salvation.


Keith

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

Thank you, you've expressed these things well, in my opinion.



Scripture is clear, salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Nothing added, nothing more required, all the work was done.

Water baptism is a Christian tradition that has forgotten it's origins.

What you've described, this was why the Pharisees were so outraged at the idea they should be baptized, like they were no better than some gentile wanting to become a Chosen Jew.

Salvation is completed by His work, not by our work.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

James 2:20-26
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Mark 16:16
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned .

If belief is all that is needed, why does it not just say He who has believed shall be saved?
Why is the phrase and has been baptized included?

The answer is: faith alone is not enough.
Why not? Because faith is perfected by our works. Thus, faith without works is dead.

If one's faith is in God.
When God says do something, like when He told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, I recommend one does what He says.

Why, when God's WORD says repent and be baptized, do those who claim to have faith in God, argue against obeying God's Word?

[mark s]

Then we part ways on this.

We're saved by faith alone, the way I read the Bible.

Granted, faith will have works. But those works are purely AFTER salvation, and nor prerequisite to, or substantiative of salvation itself.

I'm not about to move on this one milimeter.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

We're saved by faith alone, the way I read the Bible.

James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I am sorry you cannot accept this truth; but, I understand.

Thank you very much for your participation.

[mark s]

We're saved by faith alone, the way I read the Bible.

James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I am sorry you cannot accept this truth; but, I understand.

Thank you very much for your participation.

We are justified before man by our works but not before God. God knows our righteousness is in Christ but man does not see that. Man only sees our works. The testify to our salvation, but they are not salvation, and it is possible that one be saved, and have no visible works as you observe them. But that does not mean they are not saved.

We all sorrow for our own reasons I suppose. I certainly do.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

No, we are not justified before men by our works.
Our works are not for men; they are for God; and they perfect our faith.
One's faith is perfected by one's works.

You are strong faithful believer. Your works perfect your faith.

[mark s]

Yes, we definitely have fundamentally different ideas on what salvation is.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Yes we do Mark.

And much love to you as well.

[keithareilly]

2 Kings 5

Naaman Is Healed

1Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper. 2Now the Arameans had gone out in bands and had taken captive a little girl from the land of Israel; and she waited on Naaman’s wife. 3She said to her mistress, “I wish that my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! Then he would cure him of his leprosy.” 4Naaman went in and told his master, saying, “Thus and thus spoke the girl who is from the land of Israel.” 5Then the king of Aram said, “Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” He departed and took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten changes of clothes.

6He brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, “And now as this letter comes to you, behold, I have sent Naaman my servant to you, that you may cure him of his leprosy.” 7When the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his clothes and said, “Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man is sending word to me to cure a man of his leprosy? But consider now, and see how he is seeking a quarrel against me.”

8It happened when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, “Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha. 10Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean.” 11But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’ 12“Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage. 13Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, “My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.