Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Forgiveness

[Keeping Alert]

This has been a fascinating thread to me. I can understand the confusion that comes from the idea that one has been forgiven but not saved completely. Forgiveness has been so synonymous with salvation that to say one is not the other is difficult to comprehend.

Yet, I feel an amazing awe that God may have indeed gone beyond our common understanding of getting us saved to the point to as it were, God himself has put one of our foot into the light and only beckons us to put one more foot into the light to complete the salvation.

There is a particular verse that comes to mind and although it has been variously been explained, this verse could shed some light to this discussion. the verse is from John 1:11

There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. (John 1:9 ASV)

It says 'every man'... How does Jesus light EVERY man unless He had done something IN the life of EVERY man? i don't think it is just Jesus doing something FOR every man...

Love,
KA

[shorttribber]

The Law was given to add sin, and sacrifices were given to cover sin.

The Law was not given "to add sin". The Law was given to teach us what sin is, and to explain the cost of it.
The cost of it for God the Father Himself, as it pertained to the Sacrifice of His only begotten Son, and cost of it regarding mankind.

[mark s]

This has been a fascinating thread to me. I can understand the confusion that comes from the idea that one has been forgiven but not saved completely. Forgiveness has been so synonymous with salvation that to say one is not the other is difficult to comprehend.

Yet, I feel an amazing awe that God may have indeed gone beyond our common understanding of getting us saved to the point to as it were, God himself has put one of our foot into the light and only beckons us to put one more foot into the light to complete the salvation.

There is a particular verse that comes to mind and although it has been variously been explained, this verse could shed some light to this discussion. the verse is from John 1:11

There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. (John 1:9 ASV)

It says 'every man'... How does Jesus light EVERY man unless He had done something IN the life of EVERY man? i don't think it is just Jesus doing something FOR every man...

Love,
KA

Hi KA,

I think of the place in Titus where it says that the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men. I think that God gives all the opportunity to believe. But only those who choose to take that belief for their own does God save.

I have a guess that the "justification of life", in Romans 5, which is not defined in Scripture, to my knowledge, refers to the fact that everyone gets to live out a natural life, not being dead immediately for this first sin. But that's just my guess. I don't have a verse in mind.

Also, I think that there need be no confusion in the understanding I can hire a caterer to make 1000 gourmet dinners, free to all who would come and eat, stationed right there where all the people are, a floodlight beaming up into the sky, messengers passing around flyers, what more can we do? And still, only those who will approach and take up a plate will eat.

It's paid for. It's prepared. It's yours for the taking. But you'll still be hungry if you don't.

I like your analogy of one foot in the light . . . will we just bring in the other?

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

The Law was given to add sin, and sacrifices were given to cover sin.

The Law was not given "to add sin". The Law was given to teach us what sin is, and to explain the cost of it.
The cost of it for God the Father Himself, as it pertained to the Sacrifice of His only begotten Son, and cost of it regarding mankind.

Romans 5:19-20 KJV

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The law entered, that the offence might abound. Literally, become more.

Not only that, but sin was made utterly sinful:

Romans 7:13 KJV

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Jesus purchased forgiveness - redemption - for all men, but only those who believe receive. Those who don't remain under wrath for their sins.

The Law was given to add sin, and sacrifices were given to cover sin. Until Jesus came. But all those who sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. Unless they receive the forgiveness which is theirs for the taking.

But only in faith.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark wrote

I like your analogy of one foot in the light . . . will we just bring in the other?

I like it too.

I see it as: All Men have been placed in The Court of the Gentiles.

[shorttribber]

The law entered, that the offence might abound. Literally, become more.

That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in our understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that
it might appear sin

There you have it, there is the reason, the word "That".

edited the word "or" to read "our"....sorry for any confusion about it for any reader.

[Abiding in His Word]

That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in or understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.

This is so important. The law made sin/transgressions obvious thereby eliminating excuse, or pretext of ignorance.
Good word, shorttribber!

[mark s]

The law entered, that the offence might abound. Literally, become more.

That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in or understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.

Hi ST,

"That the offense might abound"

This is a different thought from where it says that sin appears more sinful. It also becomes more. One does not rule out the other, and in this passage, the "becomes more" is taught.

This is Strongs for "offense" as used in Romans 5:20:

παράπτωμα paráptōma, par-ap'-to-mah; from G3895; a side-slip (lapse or deviation), i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:—fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... ongs=g3900

Thayer, same source:

παράπτωμα, παραπτώματος, τό (παραπίπτω, which see);
1. properly, a fall beside or near something; but nowhere found in this sense.
2. tropically, a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness; a sin, misdeed

I don't think this is speaking of sin becoming more odious to God because He gave the law. Neither is it speaking of it becoming more offensive to man. In this passage, it is speaking of increasing the acts of sin.

Romans 7 explains in detail how this comes about:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Vs. 7 - The Law brings awareness of what sin is.
Vs. 8 - Sin's response is to work all sorts of sin.
Vs. 13 - Sin becomes death, to be shown sinful.

Romans 5:20 (ESV) "Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

A torn veil accomplishes nothing for a man who will not enter. It does not bring them in.

The way has been made. But they do not benefit if they do not believe. And in the end, they remain dead in their sins.

Sin separates from God. Either we are separated from God or we are not. Either sin separates us from God, or it does not.

Sin (unbelief) WILL separate men from God for all eternity after the second judgment (white throne). But right now during the year of the Lord's favor, men (Adamic) are in good standing/acceptable before God as long as it is called TODAY because of the blood of Christ who cleansed all men from sin on the Cross. Rom 3:23-25, Heb 3:12-19

Hi Sonbeam,

Let's add one verse for context:

Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Who were those that were justified freely through Christ's redemption?

The answer is ALL as the preceding verse would indicate.



sonbeam

[mark s]

I might add . . .

From Romans 2 (ESV)

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

All have awareness of wrongdoing, with or without the law. The law increases everything, the sin, the awareness, and the penalty, although there is still sin, awareness of sin, and the penalty for sin even even without the law.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 [Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hi sonbeam,

How then is this not universalism? If all are justified from their sins - having received this imputation of sinlessness, that is, righteousness - then all are in right standing with God. Who then is tossed into the lake of fire?

But if it is received by faith, then it is those who believe, as according to the passage above.

Much love!
mark

[Sonbeam]

Mark F,

You make some good points, so let me back up, rethink, and quantify.

I will state that Christ's death does forgive all sins of all men.

In verse 6, Isaiah states this to be true.
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him

This verse must be true;
Therefore, having one's sins forgiven cannot be the same as being saved.
Else, no person could be condemned.

You got it Keith! And those sins are "past sins" committed by the offspring of Adam, all of us at one time.

Love the book of Isaiah.



sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Again, 1 John 1:9 answers the matter. If we confess, then He forgives. Reconciliation is made at the cross, but we are urged to be reconciled. It's a two way thing.

Yes, reconciliation is a two way thing. But there are two reconciliations, just like there are two judgments under two different covenants, then two justifications, etc.

The Word says that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. 2 Cor 5:19

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

This is an accomplished reconciliation. The reconciliation that men are called to come to now/accept is the Good News of the gospel -- belief in the Son.

By the way, it is believed that the book of 1 John was written to believers. Do you agree? I am asking this for a
reason.


Blessings,

sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

You've not yet answered my question.



Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

2 Corinthians 5 (ESV)

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

[mark s]

Isaiah 34 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Everything that comes forth from the earth. That would be everything from the original creation, excepting the original orb of the earth itself, formless and empty.

All of Adam's line of humanity, under God's indignation.

Our only hope is to leave that humanity for the new humanity, Jesus' line of humanity. We become new people, not part of Adam's condemned line, forever under the wrath of God, we become brand new, righteous, holy, and to stay that way thanks to the indwelling of God Himself, keeping for Himself.

We are transfered from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the beloved. We have passed from death to life. We are the children of God.

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

I agree with you Mark that those who do not believe in the Son will perish. I believe they will perish for unbelief which is the requirement under the NT and not for past sins which Christ cleansed on the Cross.

But I hear you and understand where you are coming from.

Many blessings,

sonbeam

Hebrew 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

There is a coming judgment for sins, for those who are not forgiven.

Yes Mark. There is a coming judgment -- the second judgment for the sin of unbelief under the second covenant, i.e., the New Covenant.

The first judgment -- for the sins of all Adamic men (his offspring) who were condemned to death along with Adam when he sinned -- happened on the Cross.

John 12:31
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Blessings

sonbeam

PS Am going back and reviewing all posts to address some of the comments I missed.

[mark s]

Colossians 3:5-6

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Wrath is upon them for sins.

Ephesians 5

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience

.

Much love!
mark

[mark s]

Hebrew 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

There is a coming judgment for sins, for those who are not forgiven.

Yes Mark. There is a coming judgment -- the second judgment for the sin of unbelief under the second covenant, i.e., the New Covenant.

Hi Sonbeam,

If you go back to the verse, it says, "for sins". There is no more sacrifice for sins, only judgment.

Much love!
Mark

[shorttribber]

That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in or understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.

This is so important. The law made sin/transgressions obvious thereby eliminating excuse, or pretext of ignorance.
Good word, shorttribber!

Thank you. Glad you see it that way too.

I don't think this is speaking of sin becoming more odious to God because He gave the law. Neither is it speaking of it becoming more offensive to man. In this passage, it is speaking of increasing the acts of sin.

Sin has the same stench to God from the beginning. I didn't say "becoming more odious to God ".
My words , and the intent of the scripture text is more in agreement with the following....

The law made sin/transgressions obvious thereby eliminating excuse, or pretext of ignorance.

More "Obvious", not more "odious" mark.

I enlarged the word "obvious" in the abiding quote.

[shorttribber]

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Look at what Paul is saying here!

He was born, Lived and existed During the Time of The Law! During the Time that the Mosaic law was in Full Force and Effect!

Yet Paul says, "I was alive Without the Law Once". ..........BUT "When the Commandment Came"......

He says, in effect, When I REALIZED WHAT I WAS DOING, When I Became Accountable through Knowledge and became Aware (by the Appearance of my sin) and the Law being Against me and My SIN, I Died!

The law makes all men accountable for their sin Once the Commandment Comes (Once the Understanding is enlightened) and We have a choice, to be held Captive by the Law, or be free from it in Christ by the acceptance of His Supreme Sacrifice for us.

Thus........
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

[keithareilly]

1Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

The phrase so that He might bring us to God indicates the phrase Christ died for all men was accomplished at one point in time to enable something to happen after that point in time.

The word might in the phrase so that He might bring us to God indicates there is no guarantee that the forgiveness of all men will result in even a single person being brought to God. Not all men are brought to God in the manner desired resulting from the death of Christ.

The word us in the phrase so that He might bring us to God refers to believers. The author of 1 Peter is addressing believers. The author is telling us believers Christ died for all men, not just us, and he says all men knowing full well the result was not all men, but just us believers.

This verse tells us: Christ knowingly and willingly died for all men, knowing full well not all men would be brought to God.

[Exit40]

I wonder how this fits in....

Mat 22:14 ¶ For many are called, but few are chosen....

God Bless

David

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

You've not yet answered my question.



Much love!
Mark

Which one Mark? Will you refresh my memory?

Gotta run. Later.


Blessings,

sonbeam

[keithareilly]

1Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Both, 1 Peter 3:18 and John 3:16, say: Christ was sacrificed for the world (All Men).
Both, 1 Peter 3:18 and John 3:16, say: Though Christ died for the world (All Men), not all men are brought to God.

Why did God send Christ to pay the price for all men, not just those who believe?

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

Christ paid the price for all men so that no man need to fear punishment; therefore, all men may approach God without fear of punishment. No man need fear approaching God and entering The New Covenant; because, the debt of all men has been paid.

[Sonbeam]

Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 [Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hi sonbeam,

How then is this not universalism?

Is this the question Mark?

No it is not universalism. While the current prevailing church doctrine has rolled the forgiveness of sins and salvation into one single stage, forgiveness of sins belongs or is only part of the first stage/component of salvation.

Forgiven men, still having their identity in Adam, MUST, when given/confronted with the Good News, believe in the Son to obtain the righteousness and new identity in Christ that comes through faith. Then and only then is the process of salvation complete.

If they do not believe/reject the gospel, they will be judged under the New Covenant at the end of the age for the sin of unbelief, and they will suffer in themselves eternal separation from God.

Heb 10:26

[ Christ or Judgment ] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Christ was the sacrifice for the sins that men (offspring of Adam; all of us at one time) committed and are still being committed by those who remain offspring of Adam.

When Adam sinned, since henceforth he could not procreate anyone other than men who would inherit his sinful
nature, all men suffered condemnation then. And rightly so.

God did not need to test each man individually as He did Adam. God knew what was in man.

So these are the "past sins" Rom 3:25 is speaking of in the above passage. They were charged/judged by God under the law covenant He imposed on Adam in the garden.

While I understand the word covenant is not used in Genesis, we can all agree that whether we call it that, or a transaction, deal, or interaction between God and Adam, it involved/impacted all mankind. This is why Christ came.

More on the righteousness all men received through the cross next.

Mark, I very much appreciate all your answers and questions that your are bringing up. These are questions that need to be addressed and answered because they directly impact our understanding of the Gospel.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

1Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

The phrase so that He might bring us to God indicates the phrase Christ died for all men was accomplished at one point in time to enable something to happen after that point in time.

The word might in the phrase so that He might bring us to God indicates there is no guarantee that the forgiveness of all men will result in even a single person being brought to God. Not all men are brought to God in the manner desired resulting from the death of Christ.

Hi Keith,

2 Cor :14-15 echoes the 1 Peter 3:18 you cited above.

14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Paul having repeated twice that Christ "died for all" then goes on to say that because of this (Therefore) he looks at all men differently. vs 16 Not according to the flesh, but according to what Christ did for them, i.e., die for them and as a result, reconciled them to God not counting their trespasses against them vss 18, 19 below.

2 Cor:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one [f]according to the flesh;

even though we have known Christ [g]according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [h]he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

In the above passage we see the two reconciliations: the one that happened on the Cross, and the one to happen through faith in Christ under the New Covenant.

And what is the "word of reconciliation" that God has committed Paul to preach?

Namely, that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," not counting the world's trespasses (sins) against them.

Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?

Blessings

[mark s]

Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?

Blessings

Indeed, that is the question!

But then, the act of repentance is turning in belief to God, and gaining a new mind from Christ, which now agrees with God, saying the same thing as God.

To as many as received Him, believing in His Name, God gave the right to be born of God. How do we receive Him?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?

It is not about gaining forgiveness of sins (done), it is about gaining freedom from the enslavement to sin.

What sane mind could think: God would forgive men of their sins, without also providing a path to free us from being slaves to sin?

[Sonbeam]

Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?

Blessings

Indeed, that is the question!

But then, the act of repentance is turning in belief to God, and gaining a new mind from Christ, which now agrees with God, saying the same thing as God.

To as many as received Him, believing in His Name, God gave the right to be born of God. How do we receive Him?

Much love!
Mark

Sorry Mark, but the answer I was looking for was that all of what the church at large is trying to exact from non- believers is unnecessary since nonbelievers were already forgiven of their sins on the Cross, whether they believe it, agree to it or not. It is finished.

What nonbelievers are asked to believe under the NT is that God loves them. That He sent His Son to offer eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit if they follow/believe in His Son.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[mark s]

What nonbelievers are asked to believe under the NT is that God loves them. That He sent His Son to offer eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit if they follow/believe in His Son.

Blessings,

sonbeam

You've just described repentance. Where do we differ?

Repentance, in the NT, is metanoia, which is "after-mind", and is defined as the enduring result of an exchanged mind.

Meta is the Greek preposition "after", Noia, the noun for mind. In conjunction, these refer to the said result.

We've exchanged one mind for another. We've exchanged the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ. We've come to a new paradigm, but so much more than that. We've not just exchanged one point of view for another, we've exchanged our entire mind!

IF we follow Jesus. Which means stop following ourselves. IF we believe. These are the same things I tell people.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

It's all one pathway.

Ephesians 1 teaches we have every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ.

In Christ, we are chosen. In Christ we are redeemed. In Christ we are forgiven. In Christ we inherit. In Christ we are new creations. In Christ we are born again.

But if we are not in Christ, how do we have any spiritual blessings?

As the Scriptures say that we have every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, one might want to wonder, just because we have all blessings in Christ, does that really mean there can't be spiritual blessings outside of Christ?

If I stay with the Scriptures, all I see is that people get to stay alive even having sinned. God gives sun and rain to the just and the unjust.

Otherwise, God has given a grievous task to mankind, to fill their lives with vanity, meaninglessness, emptiness. Everything they will do will be meaningless and forgotten. All creation has been subjected to futility, in God's hope for people to be saved out of it.

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

What nonbelievers are asked to believe under the NT is that God loves them. That He sent His Son to offer eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit if they follow/believe in His Son.

Blessings,

sonbeam

You've just described repentance. Where do we differ?

The difference is that if I understand you correctly nonbelievers get forgiveness of sins IF they believe in the Son.

According to what I see in the scriptures, nonbelievers already had their sins forgiven on the Cross. Belief in Christ
gets nonbelievers eternal life and the gift of the Spirit. Not forgiveness of sins.




sonbeam




IF we follow Jesus. Which means stop following ourselves. IF we believe. These are the same things I tell people.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Hi sonbeam,

Let me ask you . . . for what works with the dead be judged in Revelation 20:12-13?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (KJV)

Much love!
mark

[mark s]

And again I have to bring up 1 John 1:9 ~

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Sonbeam]

Hi sonbeam,

Let me ask you . . . for what works with the dead be judged in Revelation 20:12-13?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (KJV)

Much love!
mark

Hi Mark,

The primary definition for the Greek word “ergon, ” used in Rev 20:13, is occupation or employment.

Therefore the phrase can better be translated as “according to their occupation” rather than "according to their deeds or works."

Then it can be understood that nonbelievers will be judged for being occupied or mindful of their own interests/business rather than accepting/believing in the Son and what He has to offer.

This means they will be judged for unbelief rather than “works.”

But even if we were to go along with “ergon” as “deeds, acts,” or works, i.e., “sins” (since according to vs 13 nonbelievers will die for them), there is still a problem.


Christ died once for all the sins of all men (except unbelief). And when He died, all men died with Him.

2 Cor 5:14

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Nonbelievers cannot be judged twice and die twice for the same works/sins.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi sonbeam,

I believe the word is different from what you are saying. This is to do a work, or perform an act.

When Jesus said he must do the works his father gave him, are you thinking Jesus had a variety of occupations?

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

Hi sonbeam,

I believe the word is different from what you are saying. This is to do a work, or perform an act.

When Jesus said he must do the works his father gave him, are you thinking Jesus had a variety of occupations?

Much love!
Mark

Mark,

Take another look at the primary definition of the word "ergon."

But I addressed your assertion on the "works" translation in Rev 20:13 when I said this in my previous post:

But even if we were to go along with “ergon” as “deeds, acts,” or works, i.e., “sins” (since according to vs 13 nonbelievers will die for them), there is still a problem.

But beyond that, you did not address the main point of my post, i.e, that Christ has already died for the sins of all; that when He died on the Cross, we all died with Him.

Christ's death already paid the penalty for all "works/deeds classified as "sins" under the first covenant--the one God imposed on Adam in the garden.

As children/offspring of Adam, all of us at one time, we all died with Christ when He took our place for our penalty.

Therefore, nonbelievers cannot be charged for those sins again that Christ has already paid for.

The only sin that nonbelievers (those who remain as offspring of Adam) can be charged/judged for is the sin of unbelief under the second new covenant.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

sonbeam

[mark s]

And of 1 John 1:9?

[Sonbeam]

And of 1 John 1:9?

Mark,


You and I already debated on this on the thread titled, “Did Jesus Preach the Gospel” that was eventually closed/locked.

As I see it, 1 John 1:9 cannot be used as a trump card to discard or ignore all the scriptures that have been cited on this thread that show all men were cleansed/forgiven on the Cross.

Christ’s shed blood fulfilled the birth of water Jesus told Nicodemus about, and all men became and are acceptable/justified/in good standing before God right now.

How can we disregard, discard or ignore the scriptures that attest to this?

Especially the vision God gave to Peter and then Peter’s declaration before Cornelius and those gathered at his house :

Acts 10

27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people.
28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean."

Anyone would include all men -- gentiles, Jews, Samaritans-- like the woman at the well in John 4.



Are all men/nonbelievers saved then? No. They must be born again of the Spirit--the second birth.


Blessings,

sonbeam

PS How about addressing the point that I made that nonbelievers should not be judged twice and die twice for sins
that Christ died for, since when Christ died, all men died with him.

[mark s]

Hi sonbeam,

Actually, we didn't really debate that verse.

You said that you didn't believe it was true, and I didn't debate it with you. But now I wish to.

This is Scripture. Do you not believe that? I believe that a correct understanding will not conflict with any part of Scritpure, and when I find a place that seems to conflict with my view, it's my view that needs to change, not the Scriptures.

If it says it's true, then it's true.

And I find it to be in complete agreement with the fact that while God reconciled us to Himself, we have to ourselves be reconciled to Him as without that, it does us no good. We'll be tossed into the lake of fire for not being alive in Christ, and we'll be judged according to the works we've done in our lives.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Sonbeam,

But beyond that, you did not address the main point of my post, i.e, that Christ has already died for the sins of all; that when He died on the Cross, we all died with Him.

I do not agree entirely with you on this one Sonbeam.

I agree; Christ did pay the price for all men. Done.

Not all men died with him. Participating in Christ's death does not occur until one is baptized.

Romans 6:3,8
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

[keithareilly]

Mark,

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why do you think 1 John 1:9 is an argument against all men have been forgiven?
I agree it is true. I just do not understand why you see it as in conflict with All men have been forgiven.

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

This is what I believe:

And I find it to be in complete agreement with the fact that while God reconciled us to Himself, we have to ourselves be reconciled to Him as without that, it does us no good. We'll be tossed into the lake of fire for not being alive in Christ, and we'll be judged according to the works we've done in our lives.

God has forgiven our sins, but it does us no good unless we receive that forgiveness. Unless we meet and make the exchange, even though forgiveness sits there on the table, there it remains. And we go into death, as the dead. It helped us not at all.

Not that I speak of us!

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark,

I understand what you believe. And it is OK with me that you believe that. I do not grant a persons faith.

What I don't understand is you have frequently quoted 1 John 1:9 to back up that view.

When I read that verse. I do not see how it backs up your view.
What I "hear" when I read the verse must not be the same thing you "hear" when you read the verse.
So, I am asking you to explain what you "hear" when you read the verse.

1 John 1:
Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

This is what I "hear".
We believers have sin, even after we are forgiven our past sins and walk in the light; it lives within us and we must overcome it. Even if we overcome it it is still within us. When we fail to overcome sin, we sin, and God forgives us because he is faithful and righteous. If we doubt God has forgiven us, we have a guarantee in writing and we invoke that guarantee when we confess to each other, to God, or to anyone. We are not to hide our sin. We are not to lie to ourselves and each other and say we do not have sin. Therefore, we believers can have confidence God forgives sins we commit even after we have been saved. These verses are addressing sins committed after we become believers so we can be confident it is salvation is not a situation were we are simply given a second chance and if any sins one more time, then they are out. Instead we have confidence God forgives our sins even if we continue to fail.

Keith

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

Does this then mean that you believe you have only been forgiven for sins that are committed in the past? Rather than having been forgiven for all sins from all time?

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Let me ask another question . . .

Is forgiveness of sins for:

A) The sins committed by the Old Man
B) The sins committed by the New Man
C) Both

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

It is both.

But Peter said: Repent and be baptized ...
He did not say, Confess and be baptized ...

Keith

[mark s]

Then the new man sins?

[Sonbeam]

Hi sonbeam,

Actually, we didn't really debate that verse.

You said that you didn't believe it was true, and I didn't debate it with you. But now I wish to.

This is Scripture. Do you not believe that? I believe that a correct understanding will not conflict with any part of Scritpure, and when I find a place that seems to conflict with my view, it's my view that needs to change, not the Scriptures.

Mark, you know that my view on this is what got the previous thread locked.

1 John 1:9 is very plain/literal in what it says. What about if we continue to explore/debate the many other scriptures that have been provide by me and others in this thread that challenge 1John 1:9?

For example the vision God gave Peter in Acts 10.

And I find it to be in complete agreement with the fact that while God reconciled us to Himself, we have to ourselves be reconciled to Him as without that, it does us no good. We'll be tossed into the lake of fire for not being alive in Christ, and we'll be judged according to the works we've done in our lives.

Under what covenant will those "works"/sins have been committed and will have been judged under?

Blessings,

sonbeam