Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
|
mark s wrote:The Law was given to add sin, and sacrifices were given to cover sin.
Keeping Alert wrote:This has been a fascinating thread to me. I can understand the confusion that comes from the idea that one has been forgiven but not saved completely. Forgiveness has been so synonymous with salvation that to say one is not the other is difficult to comprehend.
Yet, I feel an amazing awe that God may have indeed gone beyond our common understanding of getting us saved to the point to as it were, God himself has put one of our foot into the light and only beckons us to put one more foot into the light to complete the salvation.
There is a particular verse that comes to mind and although it has been variously been explained, this verse could shed some light to this discussion. the verse is from John 1:11
There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. (John 1:9 ASV)
It says 'every man'... How does Jesus light EVERY man unless He had done something IN the life of EVERY man? i don't think it is just Jesus doing something FOR every man...
Love,
KA
shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:The Law was given to add sin, and sacrifices were given to cover sin.
The Law was not given "to add sin". The Law was given to teach us what sin is, and to explain the cost of it.
The cost of it for God the Father Himself, as it pertained to the Sacrifice of His only begotten Son, and cost of it regarding mankind.
Romans 5:19-20 KJV
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 7:13 KJV
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
I like your analogy of one foot in the light . . . will we just bring in the other?
mark s wrote:The law entered, that the offence might abound. Literally, become more.
mark s wrote:Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that
it might appear sin
shorttribber wrote:That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in or understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.
shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:The law entered, that the offence might abound. Literally, become more.
That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in or understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.
παράπτωμα paráptōma, par-ap'-to-mah; from G3895; a side-slip (lapse or deviation), i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:—fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.
παράπτωμα, παραπτώματος, τό (παραπίπτω, which see);
1. properly, a fall beside or near something; but nowhere found in this sense.
2. tropically, a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness; a sin, misdeed
mark s wrote:Sonbeam wrote:mark s wrote:A torn veil accomplishes nothing for a man who will not enter. It does not bring them in.
The way has been made. But they do not benefit if they do not believe. And in the end, they remain dead in their sins.
Sin separates from God. Either we are separated from God or we are not. Either sin separates us from God, or it does not.
Sin (unbelief) WILL separate men from God for all eternity after the second judgment (white throne). But right now during the year of the Lord's favor, men (Adamic) are in good standing/acceptable before God as long as it is called TODAY because of the blood of Christ who cleansed all men from sin on the Cross. Rom 3:23-25, Heb 3:12-19
Hi Sonbeam,
Let's add one verse for context:Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
From Romans 2 (ESV)
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 [Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
keithareilly wrote:Mark F,
You make some good points, so let me back up, rethink, and quantify.
I will state that Christ's death does forgive all sins of all men.
In verse 6, Isaiah states this to be true.
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him
This verse must be true;
Therefore, having one's sins forgiven cannot be the same as being saved.
Else, no person could be condemned.
mark s wrote:Again, 1 John 1:9 answers the matter. If we confess, then He forgives. Reconciliation is made at the cross, but we are urged to be reconciled. It's a two way thing.
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Isaiah 34 (KJV)
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
mark s wrote:Sonbeam wrote:
I agree with you Mark that those who do not believe in the Son will perish. I believe they will perish for unbelief which is the requirement under the NT and not for past sins which Christ cleansed on the Cross.
But I hear you and understand where you are coming from.
Many blessings,
sonbeamHebrew 10:26-27
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
There is a coming judgment for sins, for those who are not forgiven.
John 12:31
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
Colossians 3:5-6
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
.Ephesians 5
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience
Sonbeam wrote:mark s wrote:Hebrew 10:26-27
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
There is a coming judgment for sins, for those who are not forgiven.
Yes Mark. There is a coming judgment -- the second judgment for the sin of unbelief under the second covenant, i.e., the New Covenant.
Abiding in His Word wrote:shorttribber wrote:That the "Offence" may abound...not the SIN itself, the Offense of it against God, to make more obvious and great in or understanding of what it is. The Law was to teach us Not to sin. Not to sin more mark.
This is so important. The law made sin/transgressions obvious thereby eliminating excuse, or pretext of ignorance.
Good word, shorttribber!
mark s wrote:I don't think this is speaking of sin becoming more odious to God because He gave the law. Neither is it speaking of it becoming more offensive to man. In this passage, it is speaking of increasing the acts of sin.
Abiding in His Word wrote: The law made sin/transgressions obvious thereby eliminating excuse, or pretext of ignorance.
mark s wrote:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
mark s wrote:Hi Sonbeam,
You've not yet answered my question.
![]()
Much love!
Mark
mark s wrote:Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 [Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Hi sonbeam,
How then is this not universalism?
[ Christ or Judgment ] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
keithareilly wrote:1Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
The phrase so that He might bring us to God indicates the phrase Christ died for all men was accomplished at one point in time to enable something to happen after that point in time.
The word might in the phrase so that He might bring us to God indicates there is no guarantee that the forgiveness of all men will result in even a single person being brought to God. Not all men are brought to God in the manner desired resulting from the death of Christ.
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2 Cor:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one [f]according to the flesh;
even though we have known Christ [g]according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [h]he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Sonbeam wrote:
Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?
Blessings
Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?
mark s wrote:Sonbeam wrote:
Think about this, if God did not count all of men's sins against them, and furthermore Christ cleansed all men with His blood, why are we still trying to exact repentance, confession, belief from nonbelievers so that they may gain forgiveness for their sins?
Blessings
Indeed, that is the question!
But then, the act of repentance is turning in belief to God, and gaining a new mind from Christ, which now agrees with God, saying the same thing as God.
To as many as received Him, believing in His Name, God gave the right to be born of God. How do we receive Him?
Much love!
Mark
Sonbeam wrote:
What nonbelievers are asked to believe under the NT is that God loves them. That He sent His Son to offer eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit if they follow/believe in His Son.
Blessings,
sonbeam
mark s wrote:Sonbeam wrote:
What nonbelievers are asked to believe under the NT is that God loves them. That He sent His Son to offer eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit if they follow/believe in His Son.
Blessings,
sonbeam
You've just described repentance. Where do we differ?
The difference is that if I understand you correctly nonbelievers get forgiveness of sins IF they believe in the Son.
According to what I see in the scriptures, nonbelievers already had their sins forgiven on the Cross. Belief in Christ
gets nonbelievers eternal life and the gift of the Spirit. Not forgiveness of sins.
![]()
sonbeam
IF we follow Jesus. Which means stop following ourselves. IF we believe. These are the same things I tell people.
Much love!
Mark
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (KJV)
mark s wrote:Hi sonbeam,
Let me ask you . . . for what works with the dead be judged in Revelation 20:12-13?12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (KJV)
Much love!
mark
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
mark s wrote:Hi sonbeam,
I believe the word is different from what you are saying. This is to do a work, or perform an act.
When Jesus said he must do the works his father gave him, are you thinking Jesus had a variety of occupations?
Much love!
Mark
But even if we were to go along with “ergon” as “deeds, acts,” or works, i.e., “sins” (since according to vs 13 nonbelievers will die for them), there is still a problem.
John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
mark s wrote:And of 1 John 1:9?
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people.
28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean."
But beyond that, you did not address the main point of my post, i.e, that Christ has already died for the sins of all; that when He died on the Cross, we all died with Him.
And I find it to be in complete agreement with the fact that while God reconciled us to Himself, we have to ourselves be reconciled to Him as without that, it does us no good. We'll be tossed into the lake of fire for not being alive in Christ, and we'll be judged according to the works we've done in our lives.
mark s wrote:Hi sonbeam,
Actually, we didn't really debate that verse.
You said that you didn't believe it was true, and I didn't debate it with you. But now I wish to.
This is Scripture. Do you not believe that? I believe that a correct understanding will not conflict with any part of Scritpure, and when I find a place that seems to conflict with my view, it's my view that needs to change, not the Scriptures.
And I find it to be in complete agreement with the fact that while God reconciled us to Himself, we have to ourselves be reconciled to Him as without that, it does us no good. We'll be tossed into the lake of fire for not being alive in Christ, and we'll be judged according to the works we've done in our lives.
Return to General Bible Study & Debate
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
”