Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Forgiveness

[Sonbeam]

Let me ask another question . . .

Is forgiveness of sins for:

A) The sins committed by the Old Man
B) The sins committed by the New Man
C) Both

Much love!
Mark

Forgiveness of sins was for all sins (past, present, and future) committed by the old man --the offspring of Adam.


Blessings,

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Sonbeam,

But beyond that, you did not address the main point of my post, i.e, that Christ has already died for the sins of all; that when He died on the Cross, we all died with Him.

I do not agree entirely with you on this one Sonbeam.

I agree; Christ did pay the price for all men. Done.

Not all men died with him. Participating in Christ's death does not occur until one is baptized.

The following scripture attests to the fact that we all died (vicariously) with Christ when He died.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Romans 6:3,8
[color=#4000FF]3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

The baptism that is spoken of in the above passage is the one Christ underwent on the Cross for all of us Keith.

Luke 12:50

But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!

Blessings

sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Sonbeam,

Good argument.

For the second time in this topic. I must change my view somewhat.

It backed up from all men are saved to all men are forgiven.
Now it steps forward again to all have participated in death on the cross.

Very Interesting. Very helpful.

It gives me a new perspective on these verses
Romans 5:18-19
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

What Adam did had a result on all men.
Equivalently, what Jesus did had a result of the same order of magnitude as what Adam did.

Interesting.

Keith

[mark s]

I cannot agree with these things.

If you follow this logic through, it is universalism.

Man is urged to "be reconciled to God. Why?

Not, "believe in God", but specifically, be reconciled to God. Why is man being told this?

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark,

No. It is not universal-ism.

It is to what extent does forgiveness extend.

Salvation is more than just forgiveness.
This topic is only one aspect of salvation, forgiveness.
Because this topic does not represent the fullness of salvation it does not represent universal-ism.

If a well is as deep as the ocean, it does not make the well an ocean.
We are exploring the depth of a single aspect of salvation, forgiveness.
The depth and riches of this single aspect represent only a portion of the depth and riches of salvation.

Keith

[Sonbeam]

Mark,

No. It is not universal-ism.

It is to what extent does forgiveness extend.

Salvation is more than just forgiveness.
This topic is only one aspect of salvation, forgiveness.
Because this topic does not represent the fullness of salvation it does not represent universal-ism.

If a well is as deep as the ocean, it does not make the well an ocean.
We are exploring the depth of a single aspect of salvation, forgiveness.
The depth and riches of this single aspect represent only a portion of the depth and riches of salvation.

Keith

I agree Keith. forgiveness is just one component/part of salvation. It is the birth of water (cleansing of sin) that Jesus Christ spoke about to Nicodemus.

Christ shed His blood to cleanse the sins that were committed by all the offspring of Adam. When Adam sinned, the judgment of death fell on all of his offspring. Rom 5:12 tells why:

Rom 5:12

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

These sins cannot be charged/judged under the New Covenant. They were charged/judged for all men when Adam sinned in the garden.

Jesus Christ took the penalty/punishment for those sins on the Cross. Men cannot be charged twice for those sins.

That would be disregarding Christ's sacrifice on the Cross and making it of no effect.


Blessings,

sonbeam

[mark s]

I cannot agree with these things.

If you follow this logic through, it is universalism.

Man is urged to "be reconciled to God. Why?

Not, "believe in God", but specifically, be reconciled to God. Why is man being told this?

Much love!
Mark

OK . . . so then, why is man being told that he has to become reconciled to God?

Much love!

Mark

[mark s]

Hi sonbeam,

Actually, we didn't really debate that verse.

You said that you didn't believe it was true, and I didn't debate it with you. But now I wish to.

This is Scripture. Do you not believe that? I believe that a correct understanding will not conflict with any part of Scritpure, and when I find a place that seems to conflict with my view, it's my view that needs to change, not the Scriptures.

Mark, you know that my view on this is what got the previous thread locked.

1 John 1:9 is very plain/literal in what it says. What about if we continue to explore/debate the many other scriptures that have been provide by me and others in this thread that challenge 1John 1:9?

Hi sonbeam,

I have no interest in side-stepping this.

The fact that you've stated you believe this verse to be wrong does not negate my intereset in exploring this.

We're here ostensibly to discuss Scripture. This is Scripture. We don't get to just choose to ignore those which may challenge our views. I think the whole point is that our views need to conform to Scripture.

The interpretation I've outlined takes into account not only the verses you want to look at, but also ones you do not. I do not understand the reluctance to embrace all of God's word, and simply adjust one's view according to what we read.

I've done that routinely over the years.

Much love!
Mark

And I find it to be in complete agreement with the fact that while God reconciled us to Himself, we have to ourselves be reconciled to Him as without that, it does us no good. We'll be tossed into the lake of fire for not being alive in Christ, and we'll be judged according to the works we've done in our lives.

Under what covenant will those "works"/sins have been committed and will have been judged under?

Blessings,

sonbeam

Why are they being judged having been forgiven?

I'd like to cover some of these previous questions before moving on to new ones.

As to your mention of Peter, God had declared all foods clean, and when Peter said he would not eat something unclean, God reminded Peter that He had cleansed them. And in the same way, Peter was to not question, but go to the gentile tanner's house.

But please answer my questions.

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

I cannot agree with these things.

If you follow this logic through, it is universalism.

Man is urged to "be reconciled to God. Why?

Not, "believe in God", but specifically, be reconciled to God. Why is man being told this?

Much love!
Mark

OK . . . so then, why is man being told that he has to become reconciled to God?

Much love!

Mark

The reconciliation that God in Christ executed on the Cross was from the past judgment Adam ( and his offspring)
came under as a result of Adam's sin.

That is finished. God in Christ cleaned the slate for past sins (those committed by Adam and his offspring.)

The reconciliation that is now being urged men to achieve with God is gained by believing in His Son.

And this is a requirement under the New Covenant.

In other words there are two distinct reconciliations we see in the scriptures. Here are some passages:

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 5:10

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

How are we saved after having been reconciled to God? Through Christ's life in us by the birth of the Spirit under the second covenant, that is, the New Covenant.

Colossians 1:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

And how do we continue "in your faith"? By being born again in the Spirit under the New Covenant.



blessings

sonbeam

[mark s]

The reconciliation that is now being urged men to achieve with God is gained by believing in His Son.

OK then, through it all, we're saying the same thing.

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

The reconciliation that is now being urged men to achieve with God is gained by believing in His Son.

OK then, through it all, we're saying the same thing.

Much love!
Mark

Brother Mark,

We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord.





Blessings,

sonbeam