Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Forgiveness

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation, Forgiveness

Postby keithareilly on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:32 pm

Applying Logic to Scriptures results in our interpretation of their meaning.

(P then Q) implies (NOT Q then NOT P)
However ...

(P then Q) does not imply (NOT P then NOT Q)

This statement is TRUE: (P then Q), [1 John 1:9]
If we confess our sins, [then] he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

This statement is FALSE: (NOT P then NOT Q),
If we DO NOT confess our sins, [then] he is NOT faithful and NOT just and will NOT forgive us our sins and NOT purify us from all unrighteousness.

Many people make the logical mistake of thinking: If (P then Q) is true, Then: If (P is not true) then (Q is not true).
This is a logic error.



A verse that disputes interpreting 1 John 1:9 as if we must confess our sins before we are forgiven.

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:16 pm

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

This verse tells us that ALL men have been saved. That is true. It is why the Gospel is The GOOD NEWS.

So, what does the clause especially of believers mean?

ROMANS 10:6-9
6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Notice these verse says it is wrong to ask who will go to Heaven and who will go to the Abyss. Salvation is about our life, including, here and now. It is about being freed from enslavement to sin. Consequently our behavior changes. Our changes in our behavior are the evidence we are already saved else we would still be enslaved to Sin and commit sin. If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, you will be freed and that freedom will be evidenced by a change in behavior in this life. Salvation is about our life; including, here and now.

Those who do not believe do not get to experience salvation in the manner we believers experience salvation.


All men have been saved, especially believers.

John 3:19
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Those who love evil choose not to experience freedom from enslavement to Sin. Why? because they love to sin, they love evil. Consequently, through their own choice, they do not experience the salvation (freedom from enslavement to Sin) Christ purchased for them.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:37 am

Hi Keith,

Question, who will be tossed into the lake of fire?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:09 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Keith,

Question, who will be tossed into the lake of fire?

Much love!
Mark


You know the answer. You could post the verses. I assume it is a rhetorical question.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:38 pm

Hi Keith,

I'm sorry if I sounded disingenuous. My answer is that the unsaved are tossed into the lake of fire. But if all are saved, then who will be left to go there? I was interested in your answer.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:09 pm

Mark, No need to apologize.

It is why I posted the verse about Judgement.
Just because Christ paid the price for all men, does not mean all men want to experience salvation.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Not all people want the good conscience that results from freedom from sin. Many people want freedom to sin.

Those, who choose to make the pledge, experience, in this life and the next, the salvation Christ accomplished; those, who don't make the pledge, choose not to experience the salvation Christ accomplished for them, in this life nor the next. Christ saved all men. Some choose to experience salvation, others don't. But it was accomplished for everyone.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:34 am

Hi Keith!

Christ did not accomplish "salvation for all." As a matter of fact, Christ did not accomplish "salvation" for
anyone on the Cross. Salvation is a process. It has two components.

Of course no work of Christ on the Cross, no ultimate "salvation" for anyone. As Paul said (am paraphrasing)
we are all still in our sins.

Salvation's first component: Christ on the Cross took in our stead the suffering/ punishment that Adam and all his offspring (all of us) deserved. Having done that, then Christ with His blood cleansed Adam and all his offspring from sin.

This is the first part of "salvation," which is the "birth of water."

Salvation is a process. It has two parts: the birth of water and the birth in the Spirit.

All men have been forgiven of sins committed while they remain children of Adam. BUT, they need to be born of the Spirit to become children of God.

Then and only then is the process of salvation complete.

Blessings,

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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:03 pm

Hi Sonbeam.

Yes, actually he did accomplish it for all.
He paid the price for all.

I do agree that salvation is a process.
We cannot take the first step of that process. The first step had to be taken for us.
And it was taken for us. For all men.

Consequently, everyone has been placed into the process of salvation. They just don't know it.
Once we know, whether we choose to continue with salvation is a whole other matter.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Mark F on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:28 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Hi Keith!

Christ did not accomplish "salvation for all." As a matter of fact, Christ did not accomplish "salvation" for
anyone on the Cross. Salvation is a process. It has two components.

Of course no work of Christ on the Cross, no ultimate "salvation" for anyone. As Paul said (am paraphrasing)
we are all still in our sins.

Salvation's first component: Christ on the Cross took in our stead the suffering/ punishment that Adam and all his offspring (all of us) deserved. Having done that, then Christ with His blood cleansed Adam and all his offspring from sin.

This is the first part of "salvation," which is the "birth of water."

Salvation is a process. It has two parts: the birth of water and the birth in the Spirit.

All men have been forgiven of sins committed while they remain children of Adam. BUT, they need to be born of the Spirit to become children of God.

Then and only then is the process of salvation complete.

Blessings,

sonbeam

I have a couple of questions if you would elaborate please..

So in your view concerning people who reject Christ, will they be people in hell that have had their sins forgiven?

Also in your view, when a person is born of water and then born of the spirit, thier salvation is in it's completed state while still here on earth?

Thanks,
Mark

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Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:32 pm

Mark,

I know the questions are not to me; but, I would like to answer the first one.

So in your view concerning people who reject Christ, will they be people in hell that have had their sins forgiven?

Yes, Christ died for all men, not just those who believe.

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.


Christ paid the price for 'all men'; not 'just those who believe'.
All men. AND, especially those who believe.
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Re: keithareilly

Postby Mark F on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:06 am

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

I know the questions are not to me; but, I would like to answer the first one.

So in your view concerning people who reject Christ, will they be people in hell that have had their sins forgiven?

Yes, Christ died for all men, not just those who believe.

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.


Christ paid the price for 'all men'; not 'just those who believe'.
All men. AND, especially those who believe.



You state yes, people will be in hell that have had their sins forgiven?
I understand and agree with you in your use of logic and your examples.

I disagree where you wrote "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." and went on to state
1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

This verse tells us that ALL men have been saved. That is true. It is why the Gospel is The GOOD NEWS.

So, what does the clause especially of believers mean?



The text says that Jesus is the Savior of all men. That is not the same as "all men are therefore saved" your logic example does not show that to be true.

Jesus is the Savior of all men because He is the only Savior, therefore, if a man is to be saved, Jesus is the only avenue by which this can be accomplished. By Jesus life, death, and resurrection He has secured the only way of access to the Father. He has not granted that access to every man. The obstacle/barrier that man erected between himself and God, Jesus has removed completely, man can now freely go to God through Christ. This verse does not say that Jesus saved all men.

In Nehemiah we read of the king's decree to allow the Jews to return to Israel, all were free to return, most choose to stay. Same thing here, the king did not force every Jew to return to Israel, he set the conditions so that they could. They were no longer captives.

Isaiah 53 declares that God has decided that He would exhaust His righteous anger toward all men upon an innocent man who is willing and able to bear it and all it entails. It does not declare that God looks upon us all as if we had not sinned. That only occurs when we are justified and God treats us as if we have not sinned.

Why will God pour out His wrath on all those during the Day of the Lord if they are all saved?

There is no way you can argue that God will throw people who have had their sins forgiven into the lake of fire, because that is exactly what will happen if all peoples sins have been forgiven. The problem here is that imputation must occur with each and every one. Romans 3 explains what happened with those before Christ made redemption complete. Paul explains He made it all legal by publicly putting Christ on display for all principalities and powers to see what He did. To prove He is just in justifying those who believe.

Paul wrote in Romans 3:26 that God is the justifier of those who have faith in Jesus, not that Jesus justified all men.

Saved = Justified. Not all men are justified, therefore, all men are not saved.
Mark

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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:07 am

Mark F wrote:
I have a couple of questions if you would elaborate please..

So in your view concerning people who reject Christ, will they be people in hell that have had their sins forgiven?

Thanks,



The answer is yes. But what sins will they have been forgiven for?

The answer is that Christ only paid/cleansed for sins committed by the offspring of the generation of Adam-- all of us at one time-- who were under condemnation/judgment for their sins.

In Rom 5, Paul spoke to this.

16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification...................

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


Once an offspring of Adam hears the gospel and responds by faith in the Son of God, they
cease to be offspring of the generation of Adam and become children of the generation of Christ.

By the way, to clarify, Christ did not die for "the sins of believers," the children of God. Under the New Covenant, the children of God are not under Law. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

As for those men (nonbelievers) who do not make the transition from the generation of Adam to the generation of Christ (the new birth) they will be judged and die for the sin of unbelief --the rejection of Christ-- not for the sins God forgave them through the Cross of Christ.

More on your next question next.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:39 pm

Here's what I had said:

Salvation is a process. It has two parts: the birth of water and the birth in the Spirit.

All men have been forgiven of sins committed while they remain children of Adam. BUT, they need to be born of the Spirit to become children of God.

Then and only then is the process of salvation complete.


Mark F asked:

Also in your view, when a person is born of water and then born of the spirit, thier salvation is in it's completed state while still here on earth?


Mark F,

When I made the above remarks, I was speaking in regards to the two births that Jesus said a man had to have to enter His kingdom.

As far as the full completion of the entire process, that will happen when our Lord returns.
Our earthly bodies will be transformed into spiritual bodies and we will be with the Lord etrnallly from then on.

Blessings

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Ready1 on Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:10 pm

This is an interesting sidelight in view of this conversation,,,

United States v. Wilson
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seal of the United States Supreme Court.svg
Supreme Court of the United States
Argued January 18, 1833
Decided January 26, 1833
Full case name United States v. George Wilson
Citations 32 U.S. 150 (more)
7 Pet. 150; 8 L. Ed. 640; 1833 U.S. LEXIS 340
Holding

A pardon cannot be recognized by a judge if it has not been brought judicially before the court by plea, motion, or otherwise.
Court membership

Chief Justice
John Marshall
Associate Justices
William Johnson · Gabriel Duvall
Joseph Story · Smith Thompson
John McLean · Henry Baldwin
Case opinions
Majority Marshall, joined by unanimous

United States v. Wilson, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 150 (1833), was a case in the United States in which the defendant, George Wilson, was convicted of robbing the US Mail in Pennsylvania and sentenced to death.[1] Due to his friends' influence, Wilson was pardoned by Andrew Jackson. Wilson, however, refused the pardon. The Supreme Court was thus asked to rule on the case.[1]

The decision was that if the prisoner does not accept the pardon, it is not in effect: "A pardon is a deed, to the validity of which delivery is essential, and delivery is not complete without acceptance. It may then be rejected by the person to whom it is tendered; and if it is rejected, we have discovered no power in this court to force it upon him."[2]
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:41 pm

Mark F,

You make some good points, so let me back up, rethink, and quantify.

I will state that Christ's death does forgive all sins of all men.
In verse 6, Isaiah states this to be true.
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him
This verse must be true;
Therefore, having one's sins forgiven cannot be the same as being saved.
Else, no person could be condemned.

In verse 1 Isaiah address belief and revelation.
Isaiah questions who believes something has happened (verse 6 describes what happened).
He also questions to whom has what has happened been revealed.

Isaiah, through the words 'has caused', describes The Lord instituting a circumstantial change to reality.
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him

To argue the iniquity of only believers falls on Christ is to argue Isaiah 53:6 is not true.

So, can we agree upon: The iniquity (sins) of all men, not just believers, falls on Christ?


For reference
Isaiah 53:
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him
.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:13 pm

Ready1,

Very much worth considering. Nice contribution.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:42 pm

All sins will be forgiven men, Jesus said, except if they say the Holy Spirit is an unclean spirit.

John saw the dead, small and great, judged for their works.

Just the same, they are tossed into the lake of fire because they are not written in the book of life.

If we confess our sin, we receive forgiveness.

The forgiveness is there, just like the pardon. But being forgiven does not give life.

If we believe, if we receive, then we become children. Otherwise, we are still in our sins. Forgiveness has done us no good.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:05 pm

Mark s wrote ...

The forgiveness is there, just like the pardon. But being forgiven does not give life.


I agree. I will add...

Without forgiveness, access to life is denied.
Therefore, forgiveness is necessary to be saved from death.
Therefore, forgiveness is part of salvation, not the whole, but a necessary step towards life.
We, ourselves, could not take that initial step. It had to be accomplished for us.

By accomplishing that first step for all men, salvation was provided for all men.
Though not all men have believed or accepted that first step, it was in deed accomplished for all men.

When Christ accomplished this, He opened the door to life for all men ...
John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:57 am

keithareilly wrote:

By accomplishing that first step for all men, salvation was provided for all men.
Though not all men have believed or accepted that first step, it was in deed accomplished for all men.

When Christ accomplished this, He opened the door to life for all men ...
John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Keith


Yes Keith, the first step --the birth of water (cleansing from sin) -- was indeed accomplished for all men by Christ. All men have been cleansed and forgiven from sin.

However, salvation was not provided for all men then. What was provided by Christ through His sacrifice was acceptance/good standing (righteousness) before God, and the opportunity for man to enter into a new covenant with God through faith in His Son and receive eternal life.

When our Lord declared on the Cross, “It is finished,” it indeed was. And the Father ‘s full acceptance of Christ’s completed work was signified by Christ’s resurrection.

If each man’s subsequent acceptance of his forgiveness was God’s requirement to grant forgiveness then Christ would still be in the grave.

:blessyou:

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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:32 am

Not for God to grant. For man to receive.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:25 pm

mark s wrote:Not for God to grant. For man to receive.

Much love!
Mark



Mark

Man cannot receive something that God hasn't granted first.

Although in the case of forgiveness of sin being accomplished by Christ on the Cross, it really doesn't make any
difference whether men "receive" it or believe that they have been forgiven for this fact to have become effectual.

The mission/work of Christ on the Cross was an agreement between Christ and the Father. It satisfied the Father's justice and His requirement for unclean/sinful men to be cleansed before they could approach His throne of grace and enter into His new covenant through belief in His Son.

Matt 27

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.



Man was completely left out of the agreement between God and the Son. Just like in the OT copy/shadow of the atonement, everything was done for man on the Cross by our High Priest. We had nothing to contribute other than our
sins for our Lord to cleanse.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:07 pm

A torn veil accomplishes nothing for a man who will not enter. It does not bring them in.

The way has been made. But they do not benefit if they do not believe. And in the end, they remain dead in their sins.

Sin separates from God. Either we are separated from God or we are not. Either sin separates us from God, or it does not.

Adam knew God, but gave up this knowledge of God if favor of knowledge of himself. And his relationship with His creator was no longer according to his creator's terms. Without that relationship, he was dead, as is everyone since. With the exception of those made alive in Christ. Believing in Jesus, sins forgiven, born again, God's forever child.

There can be a pile of cash as high as the moon, gifted to the people of the earth. Everyone who goes and gets some has some. Those who do not, don't.

Again, 1 John 1:9 answers the matter. If we confess, then He forgives. Reconciliation is made at the cross, but we are urged to be reconciled. It's a two way thing.

Confession is simply agreement.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:45 pm

Hello

Perhaps if we repented then the forgiveness of God would be available to us. However, we may repent with our mouth, but in our heart, we will not repent.

In the Old testament this passage speaks of receiving salvation, i.e. everlasting life, if a person turns away from his wicked ways: -

Ezekiel 18:25-29: 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

How does a wicked man turn away from his wickedness? By his repentance of his sin(s) unto the Lord.

In the New Testament, this same message is also found. Below are some of the examples where people have been called to repent.

Matthew 3:1-2: - 3: 1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

Matthew 4:17: - 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 11:20: 1: - 20: 1 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:

Matthew 21:32: - 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

Mark 1:15: - 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. [b]Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Mark 6:12: - 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

Luke 13:3-5: - 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Luke 16:30-31: - 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

Acts 3:19: - 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Acts 8:22-23: - 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

Acts 17:30-31: - 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Acts 26:19-20: - 19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Hebrews 12:17: - 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Revelation 2:5: - 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place — unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16: - 16[/color] Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Revelation 2:21-22: - 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent[b/]. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they [b]repent of their deeds.

Revelation 3:3: - 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore, if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Revelation 3:19-20: - 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 9:20-21: - 20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9: - 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Revelation 16:11: - 11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores and did not repent of their deeds.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:48 pm

Greek - Repent - Metanoia - the "after-mind".

The result of an exchanged mind.

In the context of the New Testament, trading the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ.

Much love!
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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keithareilly

Postby keithareilly on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:08 pm

Mark S Wrote
... Believing in Jesus, sins forgiven, born again, God's forever child.

I believe the correct sequence is: Sins forgiven, believing in Jesus, born again, God's forever child.

Why? Because my sins were forgiven when Christ died on the cross.
Once I heard this, I believed it, and consequently believed in Christ.
My belief came after Christ paid the price for my sins, not before.




Mark also wrote
... If we confess, then He forgives.

I agree with this statement.

If p then q implies: if not q then not p.
Therefore, If He does not forgive, then we have not confessed
His lack of forgiveness is evidence we have not confessed.

That is not the same as:
If we do not confess, then He does not forgive.
If p then q does not imply: if not p then not q.
God may forgive us whether we confess or not.
Failing to confess something does not mean it has not been forgiven.


The assurance is: If we confess, He forgives.
If you want to be certain God has forgiven you of a sin, confess it; then it is certain it is forgiven.
Without confessing there may exist uncertainty and doubt about whether sin is forgiven.
If you doubt or are uncertain, confess and be strengthened in your faith.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:44 pm

Mark wrote ...
There can be a pile of cash as high as the moon, gifted to the people of the earth. Everyone who goes and gets some has some. Those who do not, don't.


The problem with this analogy is: One or a few people can take all the money.

None can take so much forgiveness there is none left for others.

A better analogy is: all men has have been allotted an unlimited amount of money; everyone who goes and gets it reaps benefits from it; those who do not go and get it, do not reap the benefits.
Nevertheless, there exist, for each man, an unlimited allotment.

All men have been allotted forgiveness; therefore, all men have been forgiven.
Whether each chooses to reap the benefits is a different matter.


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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:08 pm

Hello,

The parable of the man who finds a great treasure in a field springs to mind at the moment.

It is what we are prepared to do to enable us to obtain that vast treasure that become the sticking point.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:33 am

Jay Ross wrote:Hello,

The parable of the man who finds a great treasure in a field springs to mind at the moment.

It is what we are prepared to do to enable us to obtain that vast treasure that become the sticking point.


I agree.
It is only the believers who enter into an agreement to obtain the most valuable pearl.
Hence the clause especially of believers.

Yet, the most valuable pearl is not the forgiveness of our sins; that was already provided to all men when Christ was crucified. The forgiveness of our sins is what opens the door, making the real estate (field, Kingdom) and its treasures available. If we want the treasures of the field / Kingdom of Heaven, then we enter into an agreement to obtain the field / Kingdom. We enter that agreement when we are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
First forgiveness, then belief, then repent and enter the covenant through the pledge of baptism.

First, God provides forgiveness and faith. Then we must choose; repent and enter into the agreement OR not.

God provides forgiveness and faith.
Isaiah 53:1,6
1 Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
6 But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him


Then we must choose; repent and enter into the agreement OR not.
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:14 pm

.

After contemplating the input from people on this thread, I recalled these verses.

Romans 6:1-7
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romanas 7:1-6
1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.


Having our sins forgive, even each and every one of us, when Christ was crucified on the cross, does not free each and every one of us from enslavement to sin.

Until we are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, we have not been baptized into his death. When we are baptized into His death, we participate in His death and are therefore, no longer under the Law. It is then we are freed from sin.

Therefore, what others have said is correct. Having our sins forgiven is not equivalent to salvation. We must also choose to participate in His death to be saved from sin and be able to walk in newness of Life.



Being freed from enslavement to sin, releases us from the situation described below.

Romans 7:14-25
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.




Once we are freed from enslavement to sin, we can experience walking in newness of life as described below

Romans 6:12-14
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:00 am

mark s wrote:A torn veil accomplishes nothing for a man who will not enter. It does not bring them in.

The way has been made. But they do not benefit if they do not believe. And in the end, they remain dead in their sins.

Sin separates from God. Either we are separated from God or we are not. Either sin separates us from God, or it does not.


Sin (unbelief) WILL separate men from God for all eternity after the second judgment (white throne). But right now during the year of the Lord's favor, men (Adamic) are in good standing/acceptable before God as long as it is called TODAY because of the blood of Christ who cleansed all men from sin on the Cross. Rom 3:23-25, Heb 3:12-19

Adam knew God, but gave up this knowledge of God if favor of knowledge of himself. And his relationship with His creator was no longer according to his creator's terms. Without that relationship, he was dead, as is everyone since. With the exception of those made alive in Christ
.

Are you saying Christ did not die for all men Mark? That He only died for the elect?

Here's what Heb 2:9 says:

Heb 2:9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
When God offers to forgive a man’s sin if he believes, logic dictates that his response cannot be, “No, I refuse to believe in You, but forgive my sins anyway.” Forgiveness is a conditional offer: if the required condition is met (faith), then the promised result occurs (forgiveness). Faith in Christ is how people rightly respond to God’s offer of salvation.


Blessings,

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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:46 am

Sonbeam wrote:
mark s wrote:A torn veil accomplishes nothing for a man who will not enter. It does not bring them in.

The way has been made. But they do not benefit if they do not believe. And in the end, they remain dead in their sins.

Sin separates from God. Either we are separated from God or we are not. Either sin separates us from God, or it does not.


Sin (unbelief) WILL separate men from God for all eternity after the second judgment (white throne). But right now during the year of the Lord's favor, men (Adamic) are in good standing/acceptable before God as long as it is called TODAY because of the blood of Christ who cleansed all men from sin on the Cross. Rom 3:23-25, Heb 3:12-19


Hi Sonbeam,

Let's add one verse for context:

Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 3:12-19 (KJV)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Unbelief keeps you out.

Jesus is our propitiation - acceptable substitute sacrifice - through faith in His blood. Since He is only an accepable sacrifice for those who believe, while Jesus died for all of humanity, His sacrifice becomes mine only if I believe.

Adam knew God, but gave up this knowledge of God if favor of knowledge of himself. And his relationship with His creator was no longer according to his creator's terms. Without that relationship, he was dead, as is everyone since. With the exception of those made alive in Christ
.

Are you saying Christ did not die for all men Mark? That He only died for the elect?


I'm sorry, is that what it seems I am saying?

I'm saying that all are dead in sin, with the exception of those made alive in Christ.

Whether Jesus died for a man is a different matter of whether that man benefits from Jesus' death in gaining his salvation.

Heb 2:9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

When God offers to forgive a man’s sin if he believes, logic dictates that his response cannot be, “No, I refuse to believe in You, but forgive my sins anyway.” Forgiveness is a conditional offer: if the required condition is met (faith), then the promised result occurs (forgiveness). Faith in Christ is how people rightly respond to God’s offer of salvation.


With this I could not agree more than I do!

:grin:

Without faith it is impossible to please God, since one first has to believe He exists, and furthermore one must believe He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:14 pm

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus is our propitiation - acceptable substitute sacrifice - through faith in His blood. Since He is only an accepable sacrifice for those who believe, while Jesus died for all of humanity, His sacrifice becomes mine only if I believe.


That is a really good argument. Let me chew on it a while.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:35 pm

mark s wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
mark s wrote:A torn veil accomplishes nothing for a man who will not enter. It does not bring them in.

The way has been made. But they do not benefit if they do not believe. And in the end, they remain dead in their sins.

Sin separates from God. Either we are separated from God or we are not. Either sin separates us from God, or it does not.


Sin (unbelief) WILL separate men from God for all eternity after the second judgment (white throne). But right now during the year of the Lord's favor, men (Adamic) are in good standing/acceptable before God as long as it is called TODAY because of the blood of Christ who cleansed all men from sin on the Cross. Rom 3:23-25, Heb 3:12-19


Hi Sonbeam,

Let's add one verse for context:

Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 3:12-19 (KJV)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Unbelief keeps you out.

Jesus is our propitiation - acceptable substitute sacrifice - through faith in His blood. Since He is only an accepable sacrifice for those who believe, while Jesus died for all of humanity, His sacrifice becomes mine only if I believe.


Mark,

We are talking past one another. And with all due respect, it is because you (and you certainly are not alone) hold to the doctrine which is prevalent in almost all churches, i.e., that forgiveness of sins is attained through faith in the gospel.

But faith in the gospel is a requirement of the second covenant (the New Covenant). And what our Lord offers under the new covenant is eternal life and the gift of the Holy spirit -- not forgiveness of sins.

IMHO most believers do not fully understand the work/mission of Christ on the Cross. Christ came to take care of the unfinished business under the first covenant, the one God imposed on Adam in the garden.

I know some do not agree with the usage of the word "covenant" in regards to the law/command God gave Adam in the garden with an assigned penalty if he broke it. But whatever anyone wishes to call this -- agreement, transaction, etc.--it was global. It affected all mankind when Adam sinned.

Christ came to take the penalty/the punishment of death (spiritual) for all men. 'This fulfilled the penalty phase of the first covenant. This covenant was now fully completed/closed.

However, this left sinful Adamic mankind in need of cleansing for their sins in order for God to offer them a covenant apart from Law, i.e., a covenant of grace.

Christ satisfied this cleansing from sin for all mankind with His blood. The law says "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

The law does not say or add "... but men have to believe it, accept it, repent, etc., etc."

Christ shed His blood, God accepted His sacrifice, and raised Him from the dead. And when Christ rose, we, all of mankind rose up with Him. Mission completed.

Were we all saved then? NO! But we all rose in newness of "life." The definition of "life" in this case being cleansed from sin before God and made acceptable and in good standing before Him.


Acts 10: 28

“You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man [u]unholy or unclean


Now, what is keeping us from taking God at His word in the above verse? Christ died for all men. So "any man" in the above means Jews and non Jews, or gentiles. We are not to call any man unholy or unclean.

Are nonbelievers, men still in Adam, continuing to "sin"? Yes, but Christ has already taken/paid the penalty for those sins. Therefore, God does not see nonbelievers the way we "Christians" do. Thus God's command above not to call any man unholy or unclean.

However, what we are supposed to do is give forgiven/cleansed unbelievers (Jews and gentiles) the real Good News!

Blessings,

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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:40 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

I appreciate what you are saying, but it's the New Testament that says it comes through faith, as I've noted the verses.

It seems a simple matter to me, and with this understanding, all passages harmonize.

The passage I quoted, and you quoted in your post, teaches that His propitiation is through faith.

Forgiveness is already purchased, already available to all who believe. But to those who do not believe, they will perish. The wrath of God remains on them.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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keithareilly

Postby keithareilly on Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:14 pm

Romans 3:21-26
But now[g] the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an expiation,[h] through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, 26 through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

Hi Mark,

This above verses are from the NASB Revised Edition.
Edited for correction: New America Bible Revised Edition

Verse 22
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
This verse says our faith results in righteousness; this verse does not say our faith results in forgiveness.

Verses: 23-25
23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an expiation,[h] through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,

'They' in verse 24 refers to 'all' in the phrase 'all have sinned'. Therefore, 'They', that is, 'all who have sinned', are justified freely in Jesus Christ. The question is: does the clause 'through faith', refer to our faith, or Christ's faith?
I think what is being described here is how God set forth Christ as an expiation,
1) through Christ's faith,
2) by Christ's blood,
3) to prove Christ is righteousness

God set forth Christ to become an expiation;
I think the clause 'through faith' is describing Christ's faith; and how, through His faith, Christ became the expiation.
The evidence for this is: Christ's blood and Christ's righteousness are what are described as God using to set forth Christ as an expiation. Because those clauses describe how Christ was set forth as an expiation though His attributes, the clause 'through faith' is also part of how God set forth Christ as an expiation. But, it was not our faith that sets forth Christ as an expiation, it was Christ's faith that resulted in Him submitting to being crucified, thereby setting Him forth as an expiation. Just as it was Christ's righteousness and Christ's blood, so was it also Christ's faith that were necessary for Him to become an expiation.


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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby shorttribber on Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:01 pm

Sonbeam wrote:But faith in the gospel is a requirement of the second covenant (the New Covenant). And what our Lord offers under the new covenant is eternal life and the gift of the Holy spirit -- not forgiveness of sins.

Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The promise of eternal life was preached before the New Covenant that Christ confirmed....It was first preached to Abraham.....for to him were the promises made, and to his Seed.

God promised eternal life before the world began ....

Titus 1
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:42 am

Hi Shorttrib,

Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:56-58
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”


The promises of eternal life made before the New Covenant was established were made because the New Covenant would be established. Hence the clause foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith.

John 8:56-58 shows even Abraham saw and believed Christ. And it is not talking about Abraham having eternal life and therefore seeing Christ becoming flesh in this world. It is talking about Abraham believing Christ we back when Abraham was still alive on earth. This is verified by the resulting question about how old Christ really is.

Finally, those prior to the New Covenant were promised eternal life; something that will happen in their future. Those of us who believe after Christ came to earth, do not have to await the fulfillment of a promise; for we already have eternal life.

For all, both those prior to the New covenant and those after the New covenant, Eternal life is about Christ, for Christ is the Resurrection.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:16 am

keithareilly wrote:Hi Shorttrib,

Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:56-58
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”


The promises of eternal life made before the New Covenant was established were made because the New Covenant would be established. Hence the clause foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith.

John 8:56-58 shows even Abraham saw and believed Christ. And it is not talking about Abraham having eternal life and therefore seeing Christ becoming flesh in this world. It is talking about Abraham believing Christ we back when Abraham was still alive on earth. This is verified by the resulting question about how old Christ really is.

Finally, those prior to the New Covenant were promised eternal life; something that will happen in their future. Those of us who believe after Christ came to earth, do not have to await the fulfillment of a promise; for we already have eternal life.

For all, both those prior to the New covenant and those after the New covenant, Eternal life is about Christ, for Christ is the Resurrection.

Keith


I agree completely :grin:
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:39 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Sonbeam,

I appreciate what you are saying, but it's the New Testament that says it comes through faith, as I've noted the verses.

It seems a simple matter to me, and with this understanding, all passages harmonize.

The passage I quoted, and you quoted in your post, teaches that His propitiation is through faith.

Forgiveness is already purchased, already available to all who believe. But to those who do not believe, they will perish. The wrath of God remains on them.


I agree with you Mark that those who do not believe in the Son will perish. I believe they will perish for unbelief which is the requirement under the NT. Nonbelievers will not die for past sins committed as offspring of Adam. Christ cleansed every man for those sins on the Cross.

But I hear you and understand where you are coming from.

Many blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:52 pm

Hi Mark,

I have decide to re-post my thoughts with a more reputable translation.
Romans 3:25 - (The real NASB Version this time).
25 whom God displayed publicly as a [c]propitiation [d]in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, [e]because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

I think the clause 'displayed publicly' is the key.
The other two men on the cross did not display what Christ displayed.
What did Christ display the others did not display?
He displayed: 'a propitiation in His blood through faith.'

Christ would have rather the cup be passed from Him, but He chose His Father's will instead. (Matt 26:39)
We understand the faith Christ had to have to do what He did.
I don't think this verse are talking about our faith.
I think it is talking about what Christ displayed publicly through [His] faith.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:06 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:But faith in the gospel is a requirement of the second covenant (the New Covenant). And what our Lord offers under the new covenant is eternal life and the gift of the Holy spirit -- not forgiveness of sins.


Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The promise of eternal life was preached before the New Covenant that Christ confirmed....It was first preached to Abraham.....for to him were the promises made, and to his Seed.

God promised eternal life before the world began ....

Titus 1
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;



Hi ST,

I agree with you. Man has been under grace since he left the garden. And God made the provisions of the new covenant available to man starting then, even though the NT was not officially instituted until Christ did so in His blood on the Cross.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:33 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
I agree with you Mark that those who do not believe in the Son will perish. I believe they will perish for unbelief which is the requirement under the NT and not for past sins which Christ cleansed on the Cross.

But I hear you and understand where you are coming from.

Many blessings,

sonbeam


Hebrew 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


There is a coming judgment for sins, for those who are not forgiven.

1 Timothy 5:24 "Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after."


1 Thessalonians 2:15-16

Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


Wrath for sins.

Romans 11:26-27

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Their sins were not yet taken away.

Romans 6:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Death is earned by sin.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:40 pm

keithareilly wrote:Hi Mark,

I have decide to re-post my thoughts with a more reputable translation.
Romans 3:25 - (The real NASB Version this time).
25 whom God displayed publicly as a [c]propitiation [d]in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, [e]because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

I think the clause 'displayed publicly' is the key.
The other two men on the cross did not display what Christ displayed.
What did Christ display the others did not display?
He displayed: 'a propitiation in His blood through faith.'

Christ would have rather the cup be passed from Him, but He chose His Father's will instead. (Matt 26:39)
We understand the faith Christ had to have to do what He did.
I don't think this verse are talking about our faith.
I think it is talking about what Christ displayed publicly through [His] faith.

Keith


Hi Keith,

Romans 3:22-25 (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


So then you are saying that God displayed that Jesus was an acceptable sacrifice because he believed in himself, his ability to save by his blood? Am I understanding this correctly?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:43 pm

If man has been under grace since the garden, why the need for sacrifices?

Much love!
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:04 pm

If saving faith is the faith Jesus has, then why isn't everyone saved? Certainly Jesus believes enough for all, would He not?

I still don't see how these ideas can't help but progress into univeralism. If it's not by our faith, then what stops anyone?

If all sins are forgiven, and that forgiveness is already applied to everyone, there is no "receiving forgiveness", everyone already has it, if that is true, is the other part equally true, been cleansed of all unrighteousness?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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keithareilly

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:25 pm

Mark,

I am not a believer in Universal-ism.
However, I do recognize what Christ did was for all men, not just believers.

Romans 5:18
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.



Judgement is no longer about sin as it was with Adam. Now, it is about Love.

Luke 7:47
"For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

John 3:19
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.


What we Love is the judgement.
God gives to each that which each loves.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:48 pm

Mark wrote,

If saving faith is the faith Jesus has, then why isn't everyone saved? Certainly Jesus believes enough for all, would He not?
Like our faith results in our actions, Jesus's faith resulted in His actions. And His faith was enough to make atonement for All men.

I still don't see how these ideas can't help but progress into univeralism. If it's not by our faith, then what stops anyone?
Faith is not what stops people. Faith is what motivates people. The faith of a believer results in works of faith. The faith of an unbeliever results in different actions. Thus we have Islamic terrorists in the world. Everyone has faith of some kind. Not everyone has faith in Christ. It is what one has faith in that determines one's actions. A believer pledges; and unbeliever does not not. One's faith motivates him to pledge, another's faith motivates him to kill. Faith is what determines direction of ones life. The faith of a Muslim is what stops him from being baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It is not lack of 'faith' that stops people; it is lack of 'faith in Christ' that directs them elsewhere.

If all sins are forgiven, and that forgiveness is already applied to everyone, there is no "receiving forgiveness", everyone already has it, if that is true, is the other part equally true, been cleansed of all unrighteousness?
No, men cannot be cleansed of unrighteousness without being freed from enslavement to sin.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
We each have to pledge. If one does not believe, one does not pledge.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Yes He does. And He also forgives sins we are not even aware we are committing and therefore, do not confess.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:02 pm

Mark,

So then you are saying that God displayed that Jesus was an acceptable sacrifice because he believed in himself, his ability to save by his blood? Am I understanding this correctly?


No, not what I trying to say.

Isaiah 53:6 - All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Luke 22:42 - saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

Unlike Adam and the rest of us. Jesus did not turn to His own way. His faith was to do the Fathers will instead of acting on His desire to have the cup removed from Him, which He desired so much he shed tears of blood. That demonstrates a lot of faith. And we only see it because, Christ acted on His faith, instead of His desire.
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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:24 pm

mark s wrote:If man has been under grace since the garden, why the need for sacrifices?

Much love!
mark


Same chapter as I quoted above...

Gal 3

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


..............24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Scriptures: Logic and Interpretation

Postby mark s on Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:52 am

I seem to be missing a lot of the logic in these interpretations.

The passages seem pretty simple to me. I think I'm going to stick to the plain sense.

Jesus purchased forgiveness - redemption - for all men, but only those who believe receive. Those who don't remain under wrath for their sins.

The Law was given to add sin, and sacrifices were given to cover sin. Until Jesus came. But all those who sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. Unless they receive the forgiveness which is theirs for the taking.

But only in faith.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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