Did Jesus preach "the gospel"?

[Sonbeam]

Did Jesus preach the gospel?

https://www.lipscomb.edu/bible/blog/fac ... the-gospel

In its simplest form, here are a few scriptures on what Jesus said on the gospel:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 4

10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? ..............?”

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Blessings,
sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Here are some other verses on how Jesus preached the gospel"

John 5:24

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:28-29 (NIV)

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

What I'm trying to do is find a scripture or passage where Jesus said a person had to believe in His death on the cross and resurrection in order to be saved.

Is there such a passage?

Blessings,
sonbeam

[mark s]

Why?

[mark s]

Anyway, check John 3. Jesus compares Himself on the cross to the bronze serpent on the pole. Look to Him and be saved. How? He's just another man dying, right? Except that He said a number of times that He would rise from the dead, and to Mary, or was it Martha? Both? He said, I am the resurrection and the life, the one believing in Me, though dying, shall live.

But Jesus said it more plainly through Paul in Romans 10.

Much love!
Mark

[Exit40]

Anyway, check John 3. Jesus compares Himself on the cross to the bronze serpent on the pole.

Here is the verse....

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up

And as I see it, Jesus IS the Gospel.

God Bless

David

[Jericho]

And as I see it, Jesus IS the Gospel.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14)

[mark s]

. . . for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 (NASB)

[Sonbeam]

Why?

Because it concerns the gospel


To start, what do we understand the gospel/good news to be?

The good news is simply the result/outcome/effect of what Christ did on the Cross.
This result or outcome is the good news that we have to pass on/proclaim.

1. Christ reconciled all men to God.

a) Christ suffered spiritual death in our place. This was the “you shall die” pronouncement God
made to Adam if he ate of the tree. This was the judgment for his disobedience and subsequent disobedience
of all his offspring.

b) Christ cleansed all men from sin with His blood. This made all men worthy/justified/righteous/acceptable/
in good standing before God It opened “the curtain” to God’s throne so men then could have the opportunity
of entering into a new covenant with God through faith in His Son.


2, Christ with His blood legally instituted (ratified) the New Covenant, i.e., believe in His Son,
and God would give the gift of the Holy Spirit and eternal life.

So the gospel (Nos. 1 and 2 ) may be proclaimed to a nonbeliever simply something like this:

God loves you! He has forgiven you of all your sins because of His Son Jesus Christ.
And He offers you the gift of the Holy Spirit and eternal life if you believe in (follow) His Son.

To be sure, most of the time questions will be asked by the nonbeliever after we give the good
news, and at that time, we can go into the process that made the good news possible.

But if it does not come up at that time, the Holy Spirit, in His time, will bring the believer into all truth.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

According to Romans 5:1, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe cannot be justified based on this.

Actually, there are several places where Scripture tells us we are justified by faith.

And what is it we believe? God's message to us. And what did Jesus say? Just like the people in the wilderness sinned, but Moses set up a bronze serpent on the pole, so that those who were dying for their sin could live if they only looked at it. If you just believe, and look, you can live.

In the same way, the Son of Man will be lifted up.

You are also dead from sin. You must also look to Jesus. Why? Because sin's poison fills your veins, but if you look to Jesus, hung on that tree instead of you, you will life.

And then you are justified.

Is that not the Gospel?

Sonbeam, I agree with your message to the extent that it goes. But there is an act of faith that is repentance, which is to exchange the old mind for the new mind. There is and old mind, which we must reject, and the new mind, which we must embrace. Agreed, the new to faith won't understand all of these things. But repentance, from the Greek metanoia, is an exchanged mind, so there must be a choice to change. I want something different. I want Jesus.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

One other thing . . . Jesus' statements in the Gospels "concern the Gospel", just the same, Jesus' statements through His apostles and prophets concern as well.

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

According to Romans 5:1, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe cannot be justified based on this.

Actually, there are several places where Scripture tells us we are justified by faith.

According to Romans 5:1, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe cannot be justified based on this.

Actually, there are several places where Scripture tells us we are justified by faith.

Yes, I agree. But the justification by faith is the second justification that comes under the New Covenant ( 2d covenant), and it is an individual justification as each person comes to faith in Christ.

The first justification was a global one. And what I mean by that is that it came to all men
through the blood of Christ on the Cross.

Rom 3 and Rom 5 speak to this.

Rom 3: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

If we look carefully at this passage, sandwiched between vss 21-22 and vs 26 which speak to the justification that comes through faith, Paul talks about the justification that came through the “shedding of his blood.”

Likewise in Rom 5, Paul again talks about this first justification that reconciled us to God through Christ’s blood:

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

In the above passage, Paul contrasts the justification that came through Christ’s death on the Cross for all men with the justification that comes through Christ life in us. I've highlighted the first justification in blue with the 2d justification in red in both the Chap 3 and the Chap 5 passages.

And Paul continues to expound on this in the rest of Chap 5.



sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

I'm not sure which translation you are using. Here is the passage in the NASB:

Romans 3:21-26 (NASB)

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

As I'm looking at this passage, in vs. 22, righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus for all who believe. Who are the others which you say are also justified? Unbelievers? That doesn't seem to fit to me.

In vs. 25, the propitiation, that is, a suitable substitute sacrifice, is in His blood through faith. And in vs. 26, Jesus is the One who is the justifier of the one who has faith, the believing. I don't see a place where the unbeliever is justified.

Romans 8 says that the one God calls is the one He justifies, and glorifies. This is the redeemed, is it not?

2 Corinthians 5 teaches that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, but that we need to be reconciled to God, though He is reconciled to us. There's nothing on His side against us, but we don't benefit unless we believe. If we do believe, we are justified just like Abraham.

If we don't believe, the wrath of God remains on us. If we don't believe, we remain the children of disobedience, who are by our very nature the children of wrath. But when we believe, we are born again, a new creation, a new person, brand new, never sinned, because I'm new. And that which is born of God sins not.

We are justified, not by some wink of the eye. That was before. Before, God simply overlooked sin, and people lived their lives. When it got too much He did things.

Now, God no longer winks. Not because He is extending less mercy to the world, but more mercy. Now, He doesn't need to wink at sin. He's condemned it in the flesh. And He offers new life in the spirit. That which is born of God . . . And one day to be in the body also.

Can't wait!!!



Much love!
Mark

[Jay Ross]

There are two aspects to the discussion above. Christ clearly stated that He did not come to change the "laws" concerning salvation, i.e. God said that He would show steadfast love to the thousand of people who Love Me and keep My "statutes."

This has not changed. The process by which the Salvation now comes has changed because of the cross and was promised in Daniel 9:24b: -

where three of the key points are: -

● To make an end of sins,
● To make reconciliation for iniquity,
● To bring in everlasting righteousness,

As people of this world we are always looking for a "new way/means" of gaining our salvation so that we will not die the promised second death first mentioned in Genesis 2:17.

Paul wrote about the need to renew our minds and to then put on the refurbished mantel of humanity, i.e. to live out our lives to show that we have renewed our minds and our attitudes and our relationship with God, otherwise we will not be known to the Father because we will look no different to what we were when we said, "Yes we want to be Your disciples," but if we will not follow Christ's example then have we been renewed/refurbished in His likeness.

I find great difficulty with those who want salvation through a "new" covenant, when the essenses of the original "covenant of salvation" has not been changed since the time that Adam and Eve were created.

For me I am content with the original salvation covenant, knowing that, because of man's hard heart, the process of obtaining that salvation has changed a number of times since creation.

The discussion in this thread is centred around the last change to the salvation process compared to the previous processes whereby a person could enter into an everlasting relationship with God.

Salvation has always been a journey for me. Of being willing to walk with God/Christ throughout all of my days. By keeping a short account of my failings and acknowledging that His Grace covers those times when I have failed to keep true to my heart's desire to be in a relationship with Him alone, knowing that I cannot reshape how God's salvation works.

I have to be prepared to take God at His word no matter what happens in my surrounding circumstances that may or may not impact on my life through the forces of evil that test my resolve to always be a righteous and holy person. God does not condemn me when I stumble, because I know from my past experiences that when I stumble, His hand is instantly there to steady me on my journey when I cry out to Him.

This has been my experience in my journet with Christ.

Shalom

[mark s]

To me, salvation is rebirth. It's done. Now we live it out.

Much love!
mark

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

I'm not sure which translation you are using. Here is the passage in the NASB:

the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

As I'm looking at this passage, in vs. 22, righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus for all who believe. Who are the others which you say are also justified? Unbelievers? That doesn't seem to fit to me.

You are right Mark. Christ did not justify unbelievers for or give them the righteousness that comes through faith.

The "others" that were/are justified are all of us as children of Adam. And Christ justified us, cleansed us from sins committed while we were/remain the offspring of Adam.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

As people of this world we are always looking for a "new way/means" of gaining our salvation so that we will not die the promised second death first mentioned in Genesis 2:17.

Paul wrote about the need to renew our minds and to then put on the refurbished mantel of humanity, i.e. to live out our lives to show that we have renewed our minds and our attitudes and our relationship with God, otherwise we will not be known to the Father because we will look no different to what we were when we said, "Yes we want to be Your disciples," but if we will not follow Christ's example then have we been renewed/refurbished in His likeness.

I find great difficulty with those who want salvation through a "new" covenant, when the essenses of the original "covenant of salvation" has not been changed since the time that Adam and Eve were created.

For me I am content with the original salvation covenant, knowing that, because of man's hard heart, the process of obtaining that salvation has changed a number of times since creation.

Hi Jay,

What is the "original" salvation covenant you speak of?

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[fn]

And what do you understand the "new covenant" Jesus spoke of to be?

Blessings,
sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

1 John 1:9 teaches that it is if we confess our sins that God forgives us, and cleanses us.

I do not see that applied to people outside of confession, which is an act of faith.

I believe that God forgave all sins, but that the forgiveness does no good if not mixed with faith, as it were. If we believe, we receive reconciliation.

Otherwise, we remain children of disobedience, who are by nature children of wrath, and the wrath of God remains on us. In faith, we are born again, which creates a new person who lives in God's kingdom of light.

Now, we bring the life of the heavenly kingdom into this world which lies in darkness, by supplanting the original occupant of the body, the old man, the one born of Adam, Mark 1, who is condemned and executed, all that remains is to transform the old powerless husk into a new resurrection body, still inhabited by the new me, Mark New. And then I'll be Mark Totally New!

Much love!
Mark

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

1 John 1:9 teaches that it is if we confess our sins that God forgives us, and cleanses us.

I do not see that applied to people outside of confession, which is an act of faith.

I believe that God forgave all sins, but that the forgiveness does no good if not mixed with faith, as it were. If we believe, we receive reconciliation.

I am very aware of the 1 John 1:9 verse that has spawned the doctrine you mention above.
This is the prevailing teaching that is considered an essential part of the gospel
that is proclaimed in most, if not every, church to this day.

But to let this one verse have preeminence over other passages that clearly say otherwise is not a sound way to interpret the Word of God.

Paul in Rom 3 and 5 and 2 Cor 5 speak of the justification that came for all men through the blood of Christ as being an accomplished fact without men having to do anything to earn it.

Passages about the copy of the atonement found in Lev Chap 16 and God’s vision given to Peter in Acts Chap 10 confirm Paul’s teaching.

Lev 16:
29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you; 30 for it is on this day that [s]atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord.”

There is no indication above that God required for each Israelite to confess, believe, etc. for the their cleansing from sin to be complete or finalized and become a reality in each one of them.

How much less would God require this of men after His One and only Son had poured out His blood and declared that His work on the Cross was finished.

Acts 10
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and [t]worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled.
28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man [u]unholy or unclean. 29 That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

Peter declared the above at Cornelius house because God showed/revealed Peter this truth through the vision in Acts 10:10-16, and told him 3 times:

“What God has cleansed, no longer consider [m]unholy.”

Blessings,
sonbeam

[mark s]

I am very aware of the 1 John 1:9 verse that has spawned the doctrine you mention above.

Hi Sonbeam,

"Spawned"?

I'm just quoting Scripture to you.

IF - we confess with our mouth, if we believe in our hearts.

IF - we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins.

One is conditional upon the other.

Now. Do you think these verses don't mean what they say?

or, do you think they contradict other verses?

I'd say that any perceived contradiction indicates a misunderstanding.

But to let this one verse have preeminence over other passages that clearly say otherwise is not a sound way to interpret the Word of God.

Where have I put one verse over another? But they all need to be considered.

Paul in Rom 3 and 5 and 2 Cor 5 speak of the justification that came for all men through the blood of Christ as being an accomplished fact without men having to do anything to earn it.

Please, go back and post a verse that you believe teaches all men have been justified from their sins. Let's look at it together. Not a systematic theology, a passage of Scripture.

Passages about the copy of the atonement found in Lev Chap 16 and God’s vision given to Peter in Acts Chap 10 confirm Paul’s teaching.

Lev 16:
29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you; 30 for it is on this day that [s]atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord.”

Except what we've received is not atonement, it is propitiation, magnificently different. Our sins have not just been covered up, they've been removed. The law was given to Israel, and the people's sins were covered by sacrifice. Not removed. And not all of them. Certain sins, you were to stone the offender immediately. They would not remain alive for the evening sacrifice, and they would die in their sins.

We are not Israel, and we are not under Law.

Defining the new covenant by the law covenant leads to confusion in my opinion.

Acts 10
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and [t]worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled.
28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man [u]unholy or unclean. 29 That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

Peter declared the above at Cornelius house because God showed/revealed Peter this truth through the vision in Acts 10:10-16, and told him 3 times:

“What God has cleansed, no longer consider [m]unholy.”

Blessings,
sonbeam

But that was regarding Peter entering the house of a gentile tanner, a double unclean under Jewish law. "That is why I came without asking questions", that is, the vision. This was not a statement of blanket salvation to all humanity.

Many will be cast into the lake of fire, few will be saved. Not all.

Much love,
Mark

[Sonbeam]

I am very aware of the 1 John 1:9 verse that has spawned the doctrine you mention above.

Hi Sonbeam,

"Spawned"?

I apologize for using that term Mark. Perhaps "birthed," "derived," "generated," would be better terms.

I'm just quoting Scripture to you.

IF - we confess with our mouth, if we believe in our hearts.

IF - we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins.

One is conditional upon the other.

Now. Do you think these verses don't mean what they say?

O no. The writer meant to say what he wrote. The passage is very clear. But is this the truth?

or, do you think they contradict other verses?

Yes, they do contradict other verses. They contradict the verses that I quoted: Romans Chap 3
and 5. The verses in Lev 16 and the passages in Acts 10.

I'd say that any perceived contradiction indicates a misunderstanding.

Well, that is a judgment that is subjective IMHO.

But I understand why you and the majority of believers would say that. The prevailing teaching derived from 1John 1:9 is so deeply rooted and imbedded in the church that few will ever accept the truth that the verses I’ve quoted show. Especially because right now the emphasis is placed on getting/obtaining forgiveness of sins from God in order to be saved.

But the good news is that God does not save us and birth us of His Spirit by how much we know and understand
His whole process of salvation. Our God looks on the heart of each person that comes to Him by faith ..... even the faith of a mustard seed. And isn't that how we all came to Him?

More on the rest of your post later.

Blessings,


sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

To be clear, you are saying that the 1 John 1:9 is not true?

Much love,
Mark

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

To be clear, you are saying that the 1 John 1:9 is not true?

Much love,
Mark

Yes that is what I'm saying. 1John 1:9 contradicts the Gospel in the passages I’ve previously quoted.

And yes, this means I don’t believe in biblical inerrancy.




sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Paul in Rom 3 and 5 and 2 Cor 5 speak of the justification that came for all men through the blood of Christ as being an accomplished fact without men having to do anything to earn it.

Please, go back and post a verse that you believe teaches all men have been justified from their sins. Let's look at it together. Not a systematic theology, a passage of Scripture.

Mark,

I believe you know what systematic theology is all about. But for those who might be reading this thread, and who might not be very familiar with the term (as I haven't either) here is the definition as per The Gospel Coalition:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... hy-bother/

Systematic theology means answering the question: “What does the whole Bible say to us today about any given topic?”

It means searching the Bible to find all the verses pertaining to a given topic of study. Then, we put all the verses together to understand what God wants us to believe. “Systematic” means “carefully organized by topics.” Thus, it’s different from random theology or disorganized theology..................................

So if you’re a Christian, you’re doing systematic theology, whether you’re aware of it or not. If you’re not aware of it, then your theology may not be very well organized, or it may not take into account verses from the whole Bible. There may be a verse here or there, or from certain parts of Scripture, but it’s not the entirety of what God reveals about a particular doctrine.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

What I'm trying to draw out is an exegesis of a passage, not an involved theological assertion of a doctrine.

Let's look at the bricks themselves, before stepping back to see the entire wall.

I don't have an issue with systematic theologies. We reach certain conclusions about things in an overall sense. But we need to make certain that we are giving full weight to every passage, not just those which seem to agree with our conclusions, but then somehow demoting those which seem to conflict.

I believe there is no conflict within Scripture, and that God's Word all says the same thing.

But in the interest of a clear foundation for our building, I propose we look at individual verses, to see what they do say, what they don't say, and how we should understand them in light of other relevant passages.

Much love,
Mark

[mark s]

Hi Sonbeam,

To be clear, you are saying that the 1 John 1:9 is not true?

Much love,
Mark

Yes that is what I'm saying. 1John 1:9 contradicts the Gospel in the passages I’ve previously quoted.

And yes, this means I don’t believe in biblical inerrancy.




sonbeam

Hi Sonbeam,

Here is what Herb had to say on this point:

2. Number two rule is to always honor God's Word as our ultimate authority. It's OK to disagree about what it says, but don't disagree about what it is.

From Herb's Statement of Faith:

10. The full authority of the Holy Scripture in all matters of Faith and
practice. Generally, Verbal plenary confluent inspiration of the original
autographs (Original copies of Scripture).

Much love!
Mark