Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:07 pm

It's interesting and causes me to wonder why Jesus says, "Oh ye of little faith" to His disciples in the case of the text below. :dunno:
It seems to me that they just had a lack of understanding of a spiritual meaning of what He said rather than of lack of faith.

Jesus clearly brings up the miraculous feeding of the multitudes, I realize that, but what am I missing on this?


Math. 16
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Any thoughts?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:42 am

Interesting and thought-provoking, ST.

Using e-Sword, the phrase "ye of little faith" occurs 5 times in the NT: Matthew 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8; Luke 12:28.

John Gill's Expository says the Rabbinical writings relate the "little faith" phrase to various OT stories where they assume it is obvious.

Personally, I think we often attach a narrow meaning to a word or phrase in an effort to arrive at a reasonable understanding of a passage. Perhaps the word "faith" encompasses a myriad of meanings such as, trust, belief, understanding, assurance, acceptance, etc.

Then the words of Jesus may very well relate to the disciple's lack of understanding. Jesus' expression reflects a bit of surprise given they have known Him and accompanied Him long enough to have enough faith/trust/assurance/understanding/belief to not question His actions or words.

:dunno:
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:14 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Interesting and thought-provoking, ST.

Using e-Sword, the phrase "ye of little faith" occurs 5 times in the NT: Matthew 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8; Luke 12:28.

John Gill's Expository says the Rabbinical writings relate the "little faith" phrase to various OT stories where they assume it is obvious.

Personally, I think we often attach a narrow meaning to a word or phrase in an effort to arrive at a reasonable understanding of a passage. Perhaps the word "faith" encompasses a myriad of meanings such as, trust, belief, understanding, assurance, acceptance, etc.

Then the words of Jesus may very well relate to the disciple's lack of understanding. Jesus' expression reflects a bit of surprise given they have known Him and accompanied Him long enough to have enough faith/trust/assurance/understanding/belief to not question His actions or words.

:dunno:

Thank you for your thoughts on it Abiding. I was thinking those kinds of things also. Wondering also if Jesus was informing them that "Faith" was the foundational substance for Understanding spiritual meanings of types and shadows.

Like, a person can not comprehend the things of the Kingdom of God without being Born Again....and Faith being Made Alive in us.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:34 am

What does the word "faith" mean?

I've been saved for 15 years and I've only began to realize what FAITH is these past couple of years.

And you read verses like "examine yourself to make sure that you are in the faith" I always thought that meant, if you lose your faith then you lose your salvation. But it doesn't.

Maybe faith is the ability to believe in what we want to be true.

Like, if you don't feel like you're saved anymore, you may have lost your faith, but that doesn't mean you lost your salvation.

1 John said that if or heart condemns us God is bigger than our heart. And he us faithful when we are faithless.

The bad thing about lacking faith is that we lack the assurance that God is going to give us that which we want. And we begin to lose heart and behave as though we're not going to get what we want. (If that makes sense)

like, if my child wants to go to Disney land for spring break but they get straight F's on their report card, they might give up trying to be good because they believe that they've already blown it.

It's really hard to deny yourself and pick up a heavy cross each day if you've lost all hope.

That's why the bible says it is impossible to please God without faith.

Or maybe another way to say it would be, it's hard to deny yourself and obey God (instead of obeying the flesh) if you don't believe that He's going to reward you for it. If you believe that you have lost your reward.

And that's why the bible says that whoever comes after God must believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:13 pm

shorttribber wrote:Thank you for your thoughts on it Abiding. I was thinking those kinds of things also. Wondering also if Jesus was informing them that "Faith" was the foundational substance for Understanding spiritual meanings of types and shadows.

Like, a person can not comprehend the things of the Kingdom of God without being Born Again....and Faith being Made Alive in us.


Without a doubt spiritual truths are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14) But our understanding of them grows as our journey progresses. In other words, we may have a measure of faith when we are first born again, but as our spiritual eyes are opened, our faith/confidence/assurance, etc. in Jesus grows. I found the word faith 228 times in the NT and it's used in a variety of circumstances to those Jesus was speaking to...crowds of people or just His disciples. And at one point He kind of chided Philip when Philip asked a question Jesus thought he should have known by now.

Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? John 14:8-9  

What is so interesting is that Philip called recognized Jesus as the one prophesied by the prophets early when Jesus called him....

Philip *found Nathanael and *said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." John 1:45

Then Nathanael recognized Jesus as well...

Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." John 1:49

But somewhere along Philip's walk with Jesus for 3 yrs., he was still questioning the relationship of Jesus with the Father.

Jesus seemed to be always stretching their understanding and thus increasing their faith in Him and who He was.

Finding the word faith 228 times in the NT tells me that it is an inclusive word that embodies numerous ingredients?? (for lack of a better word) that grows as we mature in our walk. How it manifests itself depends on the circumstances and/or the truth being learned and understood.

Hope that makes sense.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:45 pm

Another interesting demonstration of great faith was the Roman Centurion's request for Jesus to heal his slave. Jesus said

Luke 7:9  Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith." 

In this instance the word evidently means "confidence" and this man was a gentile. Jesus still refers to his faith.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:54 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Jesus seemed to be always stretching their understanding and thus increasing their faith in Him and who He was.

This seems to me the crux of the matter. seems that when Jesus spoke, the First thing He wanted Understood, or Gathered by Faith so to speak, was the Spirit of His Words.

That is a very interesting point I think when it comes to how we should Comprehend Bible Prophecy in particular.

it is very common to hear it said that if words of Jesus, or any words of Prophecy for that matter, can be taken Literally, then we should follow that rule.

It seems a matter of Faith to learn Differently. It may be that God would prefer that we Look FIRST to the Spiritual Comprehension of the matter Before the Literal sense.

Now, when we consider that exercise of our understanding, it could be abused or unbridled in many ways, that is true.
Does it take Faith to look to the Spiritual First, before the Literal sense? I think it does, in many ways. We open ourselves up to possible errors that can lead us astray doctrinally. Do we have the Faith still to look Harder at a matter than we have looked at it before and trust God to Lead us, and not let us stray off in the flesh, in the wrong direction?

Where is the limit when it comes to Spiritual perspectives in prophetic writing? Truth is the limit.

Do we have Faith to Seek the riches of prophetic writing? Should we Fear Detours of Falsehood because we set the Literal sense aside a little easier than many do?

I believe the Literal sense is a reasonable parameter in a general sense, but it should not be also a barrier to a Better Understanding of the words of prophecy.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:17 am

extravagantchristian wrote:It's really hard to deny yourself and pick up a heavy cross each day if you've lost all hope.
That's why the bible says it is impossible to please God without faith.

And hope deferred makes the heart sick. We hope certain things are true also, and some of those things we hope for are not true, but truth, actual truth, does heal.

Abiding in His Word wrote:Another interesting demonstration of great faith was the Roman Centurion's request for Jesus to heal his slave. Jesus said Luke 7:9 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith."
In this instance the word evidently means "confidence" and this man was a gentile. Jesus still refers to his faith.

Yes, that's good. His confidence in God is all it took. The Spirit of God gave him that confidence, and that is How he Believed.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:21 am

shorttribber wrote:It's interesting and causes me to wonder why Jesus says, "Oh ye of little faith" to His disciples in the case of the text below. :dunno:
It seems to me that they just had a lack of understanding of a spiritual meaning of what He said rather than of lack of faith.

Jesus clearly brings up the miraculous feeding of the multitudes, I realize that, but what am I missing on this?


Math. 16
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Any thoughts?


They didn't assume God would provide for their needs, so they took Jesus' words on a material level. Jesus was speaking a spiritual truth, but they related it to their need for food.

Had they assumed God would provide for their need, they may have been more attentive to what Jesus was actually talking about.

These are my thoughts anyway.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:37 am

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:It's interesting and causes me to wonder why Jesus says, "Oh ye of little faith" to His disciples in the case of the text below. :dunno:
It seems to me that they just had a lack of understanding of a spiritual meaning of what He said rather than of lack of faith.

Jesus clearly brings up the miraculous feeding of the multitudes, I realize that, but what am I missing on this?


Math. 16
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Any thoughts?


They didn't assume God would provide for their needs, so they took Jesus' words on a material level. Jesus was speaking a spiritual truth, but they related it to their need for food.

Had they assumed God would provide for their need, they may have been more attentive to what Jesus was actually talking about.

These are my thoughts anyway.

Much love!
Mark

That's probably accurate mark. That's in line with what I've been touching on I think...they were thinking in the literal sense First, rather than the Spirit.
Thinking of the natural First before that that is said by the Spirit.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:06 am

shorttribber wrote:That's probably accurate mark. That's in line with what I've been touching on I think...they were thinking in the literal sense First, rather than the Spirit.
Thinking of the natural First before that that is said by the Spirit.


:butbutbut: your original post was questioning Jesus' using the words "faith" rather than understanding involving natural or spiritual. That led the topic in the direction of the meaning of the word faith.

It's interesting and causes me to wonder why Jesus says, "Oh ye of little faith" to His disciples in the case of the text below. :dunno:
It seems to me that they just had a lack of understanding of a spiritual meaning of what He said rather than of lack of faith.


So are we satisfied that a lack of understanding equates to a lack of faith??

ETA: Actually at first glance it seems Jesus intentionally used words that were confusing given the disciples had forgotten to bring bread for them.

Mat 16:5  And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 
Mat 16:6  And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 
Mat 16:7  They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring any bread." 


So it seems He knew their thoughts and used it as a learning situation. But He still referred to it as "little faith." Kinda tricked them, didn't He to use their forgetfulness as a lesson? :dunno:
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:59 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:shorttribber wrote:That's probably accurate mark. That's in line with what I've been touching on I think...they were thinking in the literal sense First, rather than the Spirit.Thinking of the natural First before that that is said by the Spirit.
your original post was questioning Jesus' using the words "faith" rather than understanding involving natural or spiritual. That led the topic in the direction of the meaning of the word faith.

Correct. I had questioned the matter, his entire interaction with them. Since then, some of what I had wondered about has become more clear to me.
Abiding in His Word wrote:So are we satisfied that a lack of understanding equates to a lack of faith??

I don't think so. The two substances work together, and grow from the use of each.
Abiding in His Word wrote:So it seems He knew their thoughts and used it as a learning situation. But He still referred to it as "little faith." Kinda tricked them, didn't He to use their forgetfulness as a lesson?

Probably so....but He wanted them to understand what to focus on first. That may be the Reason He did so.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:07 pm

Colossians 3:9-12
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy; giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:24 pm

Jesus was the most masterful, ingenious teacher the disciples had encountered. He was adept at using every opportunity to teach, encourage, correct, and question among other techniques.

One such opportunity came when He was in a boat with the disciples and a storm arose and water began filling the boat. They woke Him, assuming He was unaware and/or uncaring about the circumstances. Jesus got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Hush, be still." And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. Mark 4:39

Then in keeping with His amazing ability to take advantage to teach in every circumstance they encountered, asked them, ""Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?"  

This is evidence that there is a growth involved in one's initial measure of faith. Being there are 228 references to the word in the NT in a variety of situations, I feel certain that the level of faith grows as we mature in our walk. Our faith is demonstrated or experienced over time as trust, belief, assurance, persuasion, understanding, confidence, and commitment. I've called these types of situations we encounter as "anchors" that can be brought to our remembrance during difficult times when our faith might otherwise waiver. So Jesus will not have to say, as He did to the disciples, "Do you still have no faith?"

It's a very interesting study and looking at the 228 instances helps to avoid attaching too narrow a meaning to the word faith.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:42 pm

ST has started a great thread. To understand the meaning being given by G:3640 we should consider the parallel accounts as well from the other Gospels.

With that in Mind, here are the 5 occurrences where G:3640 is found and the parallel accounts in the other Gospels.

Matthew 6:25-34 Do Not Worry
(Luke 12:22-31)

. . . . 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

. . . .

Luke 12:22-34 Do Not Worry
(Matt 6:19-21,25-34)

22 Then He said to His disciples, "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. 23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? 25 And which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 26 If you then are not able to do the least, why are you anxious for the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?

29 "And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind. 30 For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things. 31 But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.

32 "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Matt 8:23-27 Wind and Wave Obey Jesus
(Mark 4:35-41; Luke 8:22-25)

. . . . . .

26 But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. . . . . .

Mark 4:35-41 Wind and Wave Obey Jesus
(Matt 8:23-27; Luke 8:22-25)

35 On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, "Let us cross over to the other side." 36 Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. 37 And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. 38 But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, "Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?"

39 Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace, be still!" And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. 40 But He said to them, "Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?" 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, "Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!"

Luke 8:22-25 Wind and Wave Obey Jesus
(Matt 8:23-27; Mark 4:35-41)

22 Now it happened, on a certain day, that He got into a boat with His disciples. And He said to them, "Let us cross over to the other side of the lake." And they launched out. 23 But as they sailed He fell asleep. And a windstorm came down on the lake, and they were filling with water, and were in jeopardy. 24 And they came to Him and awoke Him, saying, "Master, Master, we are perishing!"

Then He arose and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water. And they ceased, and there was a calm. 25 But He said to them, "Where is your faith?"

And they were afraid, and marveled, saying to one another, "Who can this be? For He commands even the winds and water, and they obey Him!"
__________________________________________________________

Matt 14:22-33 Jesus Walks on the Sea
(Mark 6:45-52; John 6:15-21)

. . . . . .

31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.

. . . . .

Mark 6:45-52 Jesus Walks on the Sea
(Matt 14:22-33; John 6:15-21)

45 Immediately He made His disciples get into the boat and go before Him to the other side, to Bethsaida, while He sent the multitude away. 46 And when He had sent them away, He departed to the mountain to pray. 47 Now when evening came, the boat was in the middle of the sea; and He was alone on the land. 48 Then He saw them straining at rowing, for the wind was against them. Now about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea, and would have passed them by. 49 And when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed it was a ghost, and cried out; 50 for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He talked with them and said to them, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid." 51 Then He went up into the boat to them, and the wind ceased. And they were greatly amazed in themselves beyond measure, and marveled. 52 For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened.

John 6:15-21 Jesus Walks on the Sea
(Matt 14:22-33; Mark 6:45-52)

15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

16 Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid." 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.
______________________________________________________

Matt 16:5-12 The Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees
(Mark 8:14-21)

. . . . . . . . .

8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? . . . . . . .

Mark 8:13-21 Beware of the Leaven of the Pharisees and Herod
(Matt 16:5-12)

13 And He left them, and getting into the boat again, departed to the other side. 14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, and they did not have more than one loaf with them in the boat. 15 Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."

16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "It is because we have no bread."

17 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened? 18 Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?"

They said to Him, "Twelve."

20 "Also, when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragments did you take up?"

And they said, "Seven."

21 So He said to them, "How is it you do not understand?"
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:55 pm

That really is an interesting comparison to look at Jay!
Math16 and Mark 8......to me the most interesting part in the comparison is "Is your heart still hardened?".

Kinda introduces even more into what Christ was teaching them!

Typically we all would generally think of a "hardened heart" as a "rebellious heart".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:51 pm

There is something I realized recently about Jesus' teaching on faith to the disciples, another one of those "little faith" moments, but with a twist.

Luke 17:1-10 ESV

And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

“Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”


Apparently the disciples found it difficult to believe that they really could be that forgiving.

Jesus told them to be forgiving, essentially, as the day is long, in our idiom. And the disciples responded with, "Increase our faith".

Even faith as small as a tiny little mustard seed is sufficient to cause a Mulberry tree to re-plant itself at sea. That wasn't the problem. The problem seems to be addressed in Jesus' little story, if anything Jesus said can be called little, about duty and obedience, and the place of the servant and the place of the master.

They didn't need to believe more. Unless you mean that they needed to believe that He was to be obeyed.

Do what God wants you to do. Faith will be the evidence of that which we do not see. But obedience is the evidence of that which we do.

My thoughts anyway.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:45 pm

mark s wrote:Jesus told them to forgive, essentially, as the day is long, in our idiom. And the disciples responded with, "Increase our faith".
Even faith as small as a tiny little mustard seed is sufficient to cause a Mulberry tree to re-plant itself at sea. That wasn't the problem. The problem seems to be addressed in Jesus' little story, if anything Jesus said can be called little, about duty and obedience, and the place of the servant and the place of the master.


They said, "increase or faith"......Jesus then addresses Faith. Even though Jesus does mention the amount of faith, in a sense, by mentioning the Mustard seed being the smallest. His emphasis is on What the seed Does.

As you said mark, it is about the Action of the seed (Faith), it's the Action of it that Jesus makes the point of His words.

Mrk 4
30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

His emphasis is on the Seed Sown. What is the Action of the Seed? What does the Seed Do?

It Dies so that it can Grow into something New.

The Little Faith that we all have (to everyone is given "the measure of faith") we must Take Action to be Sown With Christ to Grow Anew.

John 12
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The corn of wheat and the mustard seed Need to have the Same Action for the Same Effect.


Is 61
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

It's interesting to me that the above verse follows what Jesus did not finish reading of Is 61.

What Planting is coming that Occurs During the time to come?
Psalm 50
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.


He has judged His people, by the Planting of Christ....it is Done.....what Planting yet comes?

The Planting that those who have ears to hear and eyes to see will be beautified with, that's the one.

That's what I think. God will provide the Food (Bread of Heaven) that we will Need then.

The people have eaten the Leaven of the Pharisees long enough.....Time to Be Real Food for the Multitudes!

Let the Perfect Communion with Christ Begin Lord!

Joel 3
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Last edited by shorttribber on Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:49 pm

Hi ST,

Personally, I think Jesus' emphasis in this passage is forgiveness, then faith, then obedience.

But since you've drawn so much from His use of a seed for example, anything on the Mulberry tree?

:cheeky:

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:01 pm

mark s wrote:Hi ST,

Personally, I think Jesus' emphasis in this passage is forgiveness, then faith, then obedience.

But since you've drawn so much from His use of a seed for example, anything on the Mulberry tree?

:cheeky:

Much love!

Mark

First, all of what I just wrote IS about forgiveness, faith, and obedience. That IS Perfect Communion with Christ.

Second, oh yes, about the tree, that the " fowls of the air can lodge in". It gives the enemies of Christ (unbelievers), the "Fowls of the Air" who like to steel scattered seeds, something to Do to be NEAR US for good or for evil.

Just get someone NEAR Christ in Us...and there will always be an Effect/ACTION for GOOD if there is Perfect Communion with Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:47 pm

"And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,  yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! Matt. 6:28-30

In this passage, it appears that Jesus sees worry about daily necessities reflects a lack of faith in God's provisions for us. Instead, He advises we focus on "... seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all those things will be added..." (v.33) And further assures us that "....tomorrow will care for itself." (v.34)

About a year ago I read an article entitled 85% of What We Worry About Never Happens and it reminded me of Jesus words about worrying and a lack of faith.
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby mark s on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:14 am

Hi Abiding,

I'm learning that even to question my circumstances, even the evils done to me, is to distrust God.

But in the trusting comes the delights of each moment! Because I don't have to be afraid of any other.

And even in pain His love is revealed.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why, "Oh ye of little faith"?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:30 am

mark s wrote:Hi Abiding,

I'm learning that even to question my circumstances, even the evils done to me, is to distrust God.

But in the trusting comes the delights of each moment! Because I don't have to be afraid of any other.

And even in pain His love is revealed.

Much love!
Mark

:a3:

Phil 3
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Strong's #2842: koinonia (pronounced koy-nohn-ee'-ah)
from 2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction:--(to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship
.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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