What you must believe if, .....

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:49 pm

Mr Baldy said:

sonbeam

See this:

John 5:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Again, this clearly supports the theory of ONE GENERAL RESURRECTION. Where I believe you error is that you feel that those Wicked who are Alive At His Coming are somehow made Dead, only to be Resurrected to face the GWTJ. "IF" you think this way - then I don't believe that Scripture supports this idea.

The aforementioned passage of Scripture would appear to support the idea that the Sheep & Goats Judgment, which is mentioned in Matthew 25-31-46 - also known to many students of Scripture as the "Judgment of the Nations"; is ONE AND THE SAME AS THE GWTJ.



I don't have a problem with the scriptures you have posted, except that I do not believe they clearly specify the time frame will be the same for the resurrection of the believers and nonbelievers.

Just think about this, if we believe in a general resurrection, then we are saying that at the same time the believers who are alive then and are being CHANGED, that nonbelievers alive at that time are also being taken or being done something with at the same time.

Are nonbelievers also being changed? into what? or are they being taken up bodily, flesh and blood, and thrown into the lake of fire right then? Can we even say that the lake of fire is literal one rather than the state of being completely separated from God?

Are the dead nonbelievers, who are supposedly being resurrected right along with the believers, are they given their old flesh and blood bodies to be thrown into the lake of fire then? or will they just be disembodied spirits? For we know they cannot get spiritual bodies like the believers will.

I believe it makes perfect sense rather to take our Lord at His Word as to how He is going to deal with believers and nonbelievers at His coming. Notice that in the following passage He responds to His apostles' questions about the end times in very plain language.

Matt 24
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


Notice the comparison our Lord makes between the time when God saved Noah and his family from the flood and those that were left perished with the flood AND ...

He says that that is how it is going to be at His coming. Nonbelievers will be left behind and will perish when He destroys the earth at His coming.

The above scriptures are the definitive explanation from our Lord about how He will deal with
believers and nonbelievers at His coming.

This will be the Judgment Seat of Christ which is distinct from the Great White Throne Judgment.

sonbeam
Last edited by Sonbeam on Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:48 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

It doesn't get any plainer than that.


Do you, as a Christian, support our military (or have you or your family served in the military?)
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:01 pm

Just a little comment about the Separation of the nations parable and who the sheep and the Goats represent.

Ezekiel 34:17 is the bases for the Matthew 25:31-46 parable/teaching of Jesus.

Ezekiel 34:17-24: - 17 'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep/{cattle/flock} and sheep/{cattle/flock}, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."

20 'Therefore thus says the Lord God to them:"Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them — My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.

Please note that in the KJV it refers to "Cattle" and not "sheep" as is found in many of the more modern translations.

If we are to understand both passages, in the Ezekiel passage, God is referring to the sheep ram as Israel, or more correctly to the Saints who worship Him, and to the Gentiles as the He Goat, which had manifested itself in Jesus as people who held to a Hellenistic philoscopic understanding of the world, including some who also called Jesus Lord Lord, who Jesus had Said that He would not know them at the end of days.

Now there are two separate judgements that take place at the end of days. The first separate the nations that call Jesus Lord, Lord from those who do not Call Jesus Lord. This judgement is then followed by the separation of the Sheep from the Goats judgement. The Sheep had a heart after God's heart and did those things that were pleasing to Him without expectation of reward, they were prepared to take up their cross and follow Christ. The Goats on the other hand had a Hellenistic understanding and they were prepared to help those around them, i.e. feed them cloth them etc., if they received a reward, i.e. entery into Eternity without suffering inconvenience. The Goats, although they called Jesus Lord Lord, did not have a heart after God's own Heart.

Now because I do not hold to a Pre-trib/Pre-rapture theology, my understanding is that both the GWTR Judgement and the Separation of the Nations Judgement occurs at the end of the Millennium Age.

With that being said, Biblical Prophecy, both OT and NT, also tells us that there will be a time of judgement at the very end of this present age/beginning of the Millennium Age, of the Heathen Gentile kings and their armies after they have completed the 2,300 years of trampling the sanctuary of God at Jerusalem and that this judgement will occur at Armageddon, at the same time that the fallen wicked heavenly hosts are judged in heaven and cast down to the earth to be imprisoned with them for many days before they are finially punished. (Isaiah 24:21-22) In the following verse, it tells us that the sun will be ashamed and the Moon will be confounded/disgraced.

Although the Separation of the Nations Judgement is given to us as a parable of Jesus, its meaning is very literal and be understood to occur when Jesus returns to the earth with all of the Heavenly hosts that remaind in Heaven after the beginning of the Millennium Age at then end of the Millennium Age.

Christ is given dominion over all of the Peoples of the earth at the beginning of the Millennium Age, but that does not mean that he has to exercise that dominion from the face of the earth, but rather he will exercise that dominion predominately from heaven, where he also is our High Priest interceding on behalf of the Saints with God for 1,000 years along with the Saints of the first resurection who have lost their heads because of their steadfast belief in God/Christ.

Mark, I am with you in this matter.

Shalom
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:20 am

Ready1 wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

It doesn't get any plainer than that.


Do you, as a Christian, support our military (or have you or your family served in the military?)


Ready 1

Could you explain how this has any bearing on what we are discussing? :dunno:

Thank you!

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:45 am

Jay Ross wrote:With that being said, Biblical Prophecy, both OT and NT, also tells us that there will be a time of judgement at the very end of this present age/beginning of the Millennium Age, of the Heathen Gentile kings and their armies after they have completed the 2,300 years of trampling [b]the sanctuary of God at Jerusalem [/b] ...........


Jay,

The sanctuary of God is now within the Body of Christ, which is His temple. There is no disputing this for this is what Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:

21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:19 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:With that being said, Biblical Prophecy, both OT and NT, also tells us that there will be a time of judgement at the very end of this present age/beginning of the Millennium Age, of the Heathen Gentile kings and their armies after they have completed the 2,300 years of trampling [b]the sanctuary of God at Jerusalem [/b] ...........


Jay,

The sanctuary of God is now within the Body of Christ, which is His temple. There is no disputing this for this is what Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:

21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Blessings,

sonbeam


Sonbeam, technically, you are right but this is what the Daniel 8 prophecy tells us: -

Daniel 8:8-14: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."


As is the practice in Daniel a day is synominous with a year prophetically, so that the "for two thousand three hundred days" can be understood to be referring to 2,300 years. The starting point for this prophecy of the trampling of the sanctuary and the hosts began some 70-90 years after the death of Alexandra the Great and it will be completely fulfilled in our near future when the Kings of the Earth and their armies are judged at Armageddon and the fallen wicked heavenly hosts are judged in heaven and then imprisoned for many days, (i.e. for 1,000 years in the Bottonless pit) to await their time of punishment.

Now with respect to what Jesus stated to the Samaritan woman, we have to understand when the time will be when His words will be filfilled. I suspect that Jesus could have been talking of a time which is still in our distant future but we will only know for sure that is the case when His words are finally fulfilled. At present sin is still a reality within the lives of the Saints and it has not been completely done away with yet, such that the little horn can still trample the/our hearts that are towards God and cause us to sin. We, as disciples of Christ, need to take up our cross daily, dying to our self centered desires and follow Him in the way of truth and worship of God.

After Armageddon, there will be a time of 1,000 years where Satan will not have a direct influence over the people of the earth except through the good and faithful servents that he is presently deploying across the earth to continue his oppression of the saints while he is gone away for a time before he is released for a little while until he is captured and is finally punished.

We need to allow God's truth to sink into us concerning His prophecies such that our understanding of all that He has prophecied is in line with what He has told us will occur. With that being said, we both will have to radically modifiy our understandings as we will both have errors in our understanding as God's prophecies as they progress towards their completion.

Shalom
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:03 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

I know that your thread is getting hit with a lot of questions - however, in order to stay on the topic for clarification as what as what I have presented, I will try to keep it as simple as possible for easier reading. :mrgreen:

Sonbeam wrote:I don't have a problem with the scriptures you have posted, except that I do not believe they clearly specify the time frame will be the same for the resurrection of the believers and nonbelievers.


Sonbeam - John 5:28-29 mentions the DEAD - both Righteous & Wicked. So, therefore you are leaving out a very key element in considering what Paul mentioned the "Dead in Christ" being resurrected and we who are alive in Him at His Coming being raised up with Him and "changed" to meet Him in the air at His Coming.
This should clue you in as far the "time frame" that you have mentioned in your aforementioned response.

Sonbeam wrote:Just think about this, if we believe in a general resurrection, then we are saying that at the same time the believers who are alive then and are being CHANGED, that nonbelievers alive at that time are also being taken or being done something with at the same time.


Scripture absolutely mentions this.......problem is, you just left it at that without delving in deeper as to what is going on. In your previous post - you mentioned that the nonbelievers have to die and be resurrected. Have you now changed your mind? Have you not found Scripture to support what you have mentioned?

Sonbeam wrote:Are nonbelievers also being changed? into what? or are they being taken up bodily, flesh and blood, and thrown into the lake of fire right then? Can we even say that the lake of fire is literal one rather than the state of being completely separated from God?


In your aforementioned response - you are clearly asking a question that Scripture doesn't answer as far as "nonbelievers being change." As far as the Lake of Fire being literal rather than the state of being completely separated from God - may I respectfully ask you.......WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

Sonbeam wrote:Are the dead nonbelievers, who are supposedly being resurrected right along with the believers, are they given their old flesh and blood bodies to be thrown into the lake of fire then? or will they just be disembodied spirits? For we know they cannot get spiritual bodies like the believers will.


Does someone who is "resurrected" have to have a body? I don't think that Scripture answers this as far as the WICKED are concerned.

Sonbeam wrote:This will be the Judgment Seat of Christ which is distinct from the Great White Throne Judgment.


Please provide Scripture where the Judgment Seat of Christ is distinct from the GWTJ.

Thanks
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:00 am

shorttribber wrote:The Sheep/Goat Judgment occurs DURING the WHOLE 3.5 Year great Trib IMO. In Other words, The 3.5 year Great Trib IS THE SHEEP/GOAT JUDGMENT, It Is the Separating of the Wicked from the Just that Will Occur During THAT TIME.


shorttribber wrote:It is a Separation of the False from the True...The Separation of Rebellious from the Faithfull....the Separation from Light and Darkness.


Shorty, this is where you and I will have to respectfully disagree :mrgreen:

Even as you believe that the Sheep & Goat Judgment is a parable - and it may well be; however, it is described as occurring AT HIS COMING. We must also remember that when Jesus told different parable - it was always mentioned, or told in comparison of something very, very REAL. Furthermore, Scripture mentions that the Tares (Wicked) must grow among the Wheat (Righteous) until the time of the Harvest.

Matthew 13:24-30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Tares among Wheat

24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25) But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26) But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27) The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28) And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29) But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30) Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”


The aforementioned passage of Scripture certainly disproves any form of separation of the Wicked from the Righteous prior to the Coming of Christ.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:12 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Sonbeam,

I know that your thread is getting hit with a lot of questions - however, in order to stay on the topic for clarification as what as what I have presented, I will try to keep it as simple as possible for easier reading. :mrgreen:

Sonbeam wrote:I don't have a problem with the scriptures you have posted, except that I do not believe they clearly specify the time frame will be the same for the resurrection of the believers and nonbelievers.

Sonbeam - John 5:28-29 mentions the DEAD - both Righteous & Wicked. So, therefore you are leaving out a very key element in considering what Paul mentioned the "Dead in Christ" being resurrected and we who are alive in Him at His Coming being raised up with Him and "changed" to meet Him in the air at His Coming.
This should clue you in as far the "time frame" that you have mentioned in your aforementioned response.


Mr. Baldy

Here's John 5 again:

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me


Take a close look at it Mr. Baldy. Jesus says "a time is coming." He doesn't say, "at my return" or "when I come back" or "at my second coming"

Therefore, the John 5 passage you cite does not preclude that the dead in Christ and the dead nonbelievers will hear
His voice at different "times."

Paul's does mention the "dead in Christ" in 1 Cor 15. But he makes no mention of the dead nonbelievers being resurrected and "changed" at the same time.

Therefore, I do not see any specific, definitive scripture that says both believers and nonbelievers will be resurrected
at the same time at His coming.

While Rev 20 does speak of a "first resurrection" (the resurrection of the dead in Christ) which implies a "second resurrection, " that being of "the rest of the dead" (the resurrection of nonbelievers.)

Mr. Baldy, I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree on this point. I think it is time.

:blessyou:

sonbeam





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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:30 am

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:The Sheep/Goat Judgment occurs DURING the WHOLE 3.5 Year great Trib IMO. In Other words, The 3.5 year Great Trib IS THE SHEEP/GOAT JUDGMENT, It Is the Separating of the Wicked from the Just that Will Occur During THAT TIME.shorttribber wrote:It is a Separation of the False from the True...The Separation of Rebellious from the Faithfull....the Separation from Light and Darkness.
Shorty, this is where you and I will have to respectfully disagree :mrgreen:
Even as you believe that the Sheep & Goat Judgment is a parable - and it may well be; however, it is described as occurring AT HIS COMING. We must also remember that when Jesus told different parable - it was always mentioned, or told in comparison of something very, very REAL. Furthermore, Scripture mentions that the Tares (Wicked) must grow among the Wheat (Righteous) until the time of the Harvest.


Mr. B.,
At The First "Coming" of Christ, that time period lasted 33 years in a certain way. In another way His First "Coming" lasted 3 and a half years. His Second "Coming" will last "in a certain way" Another 3 and a half years.

His "Coming" to his Glorious Throne IN The Saints Is PART of His Second "Coming".
Those 3.5 years are an integral Part Of His Second "Coming". JUST AS the "Coming" of Elijah WAS IN John the Baptist....IN A WAY. The Same principle applies in Christ's Anointing and Power IN The Saints. And THAT Coming IN POWER Will be a Very Real Event.

And that the Tares are Among the Wheat until the "Harvest" is correct....Right Until the "Harvest"...Not right until His "Coming", but rather, Right Until the "Harvest".
There is a Difference in the two, His "Coming" and "Harvest".

Mr Baldy wrote:Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Highlighting and enlarged "TO" are by ST)


First, gather the Tares (Separate them First) And gather into BUNDLES (Separate them into a GROUP) "TO be Burned. They are NOT YET BURNED Before the Harvest, they are GATHERED Into a GROUP "TO BE" Burned AFTER the Righteous are First Removed.

Christ then Physically "Comes" and Completes the "Time of the Harvest"by the Gathering of the Wheat to himself. THEN the Wicked are BURNED That were Bundled Together and SEPARATED from the JUST, and Face the WRATH of God.
Mr Baldy wrote:The aforementioned passage of Scripture certainly disproves any form of separation of the Wicked from the Righteous prior to the Coming of Christ.


So, I must disagree. There is a 3.5 year "Separation Time/Harvest Time" IN The Valley of decision...Before Christ Physically Returns to Pour out His Wrath.

Joel 3
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:45 pm

shorttribber wrote:Firstly, as mentioned earlier, the language used....please notice.....
He plainly Indicates that he directly intended to call them Sheep and Goats............since all the people are not actually "Sheep" or "Goats" it is clear and Very Reasonable that he was speaking in a parable.


Hi ST,

I work with some people who are like eagles, and others who are like vultures. The eagles take the long view, and are quick to get into the action. The vultures are content to sit back and let things happen around them, but when there are easy pickings to be had, they always seem to show up.

Do I work with birds? Was my illustration unclear?

Or am I describing people?

The text says that the nations will be gathered together, and that Jesus would separate them as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. Not that they ARE sheep and goats, just that they are being compared to those animals, just like I compared my co-workers to birds.

shorttribber wrote:Secondly, The text in question sits at the end among the Other Preceding Parables that speak of The "Coming" of Christ.Each of those parables have a General Theme/Pattern, it's a Separation time for ALL, There will be those who are Described/Illustrated as Wise or Foolish, Prepared or Unprepared, Wheat or tares, Faithful Servants or Faithless Servants, and Finally, Sheep or Goats.


Guilty by association? It's with other parables, therefore, it must be a parable. What wording would be required in your view to express that this actually happens? That Jesus sits on a throne, and judges the nations? Like Joel 3, btw.

shorttribber wrote:Thirdly, Because the Pattern is so well Defined, I'm Persuaded to believe that there is Strong Reason to see this portion of the text as a non Literal expectation, and not to be Separated from the other parables , and receive it as Absolutely Literal.


Same as above, not really a different reason. It's with other parables, so it's a parable.

shorttribber wrote:Fourthly, It has been said, and the idea defended that where the Greek word "Erchomai" (strongs 2064) is used, that That Alone Proves it Must be understood in the Literal Sense Only. But that is just not correct......the following is a wonderful example.Math 1710.............Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?


The scribes thought that Elijah was going to show up. I don't see how this demonstrates that erchomai should not be understood in the usual way.


shorttribber wrote:Fifthly, Where the text, according to the King James Version says " When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:", here is the most critical part.Here, at this point is where the Power, Mantel of Anointing, Presence/Parousia, Voice, Grace, and Glory of the TRUE GOD and His Testimony IN the Saints will be Fulfilled...............At SOME POINT.......DURING the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation.
shorttribber wrote:2 thes 17 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;10 When............. he shall........ come (Echomai/strongs 2064).......... to be.......... GLORIFIED in his SAINTS,.......... and to be admired in all them that believe (because....... our testimony...... among you was BELEIVED) IN THAT DAY.



here is the most critical part.Here, at this point is where the Power, Mantel of Anointing, Presence/Parousia, Voice, Grace, and Glory of the TRUE GOD and His Testimony IN the Saints will be Fulfilled...............At SOME POINT.......DURING the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation.


If this is the most critical part . . . please point me to the Scriptures that I can read about this.

What is the "mantle of anointing"? But most importantly, where is is this in the Bible?

Much love!
Mark

I think it is Much More Reasonable than picturing a Throne out in the Middle of a Field or On a Mountain Top with all the NATIONS Gathered Around it for THIS Judgment to Occur Literally


PS . . . I could think it more reasonable to take them all one by one to the top of Trump Tower, but what difference does that make?

Now . . . you can take a golden gemstone encrusted chair and put it out in the mud and blood of the battlefield, or you could build a raised pavement with pavilions and court officers and all the pomp and circumstance you can imagine. It's not about what I think is reasonable. It's only about what the Bible says.

More love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:54 pm

mark s wrote:Do I work with birds? Was my illustration unclear?

No, but you described them in the form as it were a parable.
I don't see your point :dunno:
What I'm saying is just as much a REALITY as what you expect as a REALITY. I say God's Throne is In US NOW.. AND THEN ALSO...But A Greater GLORY Will be Evident THEN (during that separation), MORE Than Now.
He will be SEATED...Established AS KING in His Kingdom Then! Rev 10
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

can you read that as a Literal meaning for the word "Now" mark? That's how I read it. Why will you not read it that way?

:banana: He WILL be SEATED In His Kingdom, IN THE Saints Then! :banana:

:banana: I'm waiting for that ! thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done Oh God, On EARTH as it IS In Heaven! :banana:

You don't need to agree "Now"....but you will Then!
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
mark s wrote:Guilty by association? It's with other parables, therefore, it must be a parable.

Not about guilt....it's about what is true or not true, period.
mark s wrote:What wording would be required in your view to express that this actually happens? That Jesus sits on a throne, and judges the nations? Like Joel 3, btw.

Ok, let's look at Joel 3...
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
What Pleading does God do during the Sheep/Goat Judgment mark?
He Pleads with them Through the "Testimony of the Saints" WHO LOVE NOT THIER LIVES UNTO THE DEATH! THAT"S HOW!
Should I rest my case here?

Do we see any TEMPLE or THRONE in the Valley of Jehoshaphat mentioned in Joel 3?

No, we Don't, we see a "Valley of Decision". Is That Valley Different from the Valley of Jehoshaphat? is there going to be a Valley LITERALY Named that soon?

I hope I've made my point, since you suggested we go to that text.

mark s wrote:The scribes thought that Elijah was going to show up. I don't see how this demonstrates that erchomai should not be understood in the usual way.

Since he (Elijah) came in Spirit, and not Literally....isn't that what we are discussing?

mark s wrote:If this is the most critical part . . . please point me to the Scriptures that I can read about this.What is the "mantle of anointing"? But most importantly, where is is this in the Bible?

I've provided that text already....here again
2Thes 1
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Maybe, "mantle of anointing" is not the best words to use....instead I should use .....

Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ


:hugs:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:30 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Here's John 5 again:28

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me

Take a close look at it Mr. Baldy. Jesus says "a time is coming." He doesn't say, "at my return" or "when I come back" or "at my second coming"


Sonbeam, you are correct. But what I expected you to understand is that when Jesus RETURNS - He sends forth Angels to gather His Elect, as mentioned in Matthew 24:31; and that at His RETURN the Righteous dead and the Righteous living meet Him in the Clouds. So those in the graves who are Righteous, will be resurrected at His RETURN - so therefore, John 5:28-29 can indeed be implied as ONE GENERAL RESURRECTION.

Sonbeam wrote:Therefore, the John 5 passage you cite does not preclude that the dead in Christ and the dead nonbelievers will hear His voice at different "times."


No, admittedly it doesn't - but when view the rest of Scripture; again, it most certainly does imply ONE GENERAL RESURRECTION.

Here is a passage of Scripture for you to consider:

Daniel 12:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Time of the End

1) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.


Clearly ONE GENERAL RESURRECTION in the aforementioned passage of Scripture.


Sonbeam wrote:While Rev 20 does speak of a "first resurrection" (the resurrection of the dead in Christ) which implies a "second resurrection, " that being of "the rest of the dead" (the resurrection of nonbelievers.)


Well let me ask you this: If you believe that there will be a 2nd resurrection (which by the way Scripture NEVER mentions) - Then how can you say that there will not be a literal Millennial Reign of Christ :humm:

Sonbeam wrote:Mr. Baldy, I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree on this point. I think it is time.


Seems that you want to agree to respectfully disagree with anyone who brings forth evidence that clearly disputes what you bring forth. I accept the disagreement.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:49 pm

Mark

The at any time understanding is being applied to Rev 12:10 without consideration of the full context of the verses around this verse.

We are told that there is a battle going on in heaven between Satan and his wicked fallen angels/heavenly hosts and the heavenly hosts still loyal to the Creator God. When does this battle begin? I am not sure of when the battle began, however Isaiah 24:21-22 is an indicator that the wicked fallen heavenly hosts in heaven will be judged in heaven and cast down to the earth. At the same time the kings of the earth will be judged on the earth. Then immediately after the judgement, the judged heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth will be gathered together and imprisoned in the abyss/bottomless pit.

In Daniel 8 we are told that that the little horn, a wicked fallen heavenly host, will be given an army to go up against Israel, to scatter the nation of Israel to the four corners of the earth, and to trample the sanctuary of God for 2,300 years.

In Daniel 9:26b, we are told the following: -
Daniel 9:26: - 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince, {the little horn}, who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


Now the question that has to be answered is how long is the period of time that is being described in this verse?

Hosea provides us with an answer where a "day of the lord," i.e. and age is being referenced in the following passage that Israel will be revived after two ages: -

Hos 6:1-3: - 6:1 - "Come, let us return to the Lord;
for he has torn, that he may heal us;
he has stricken, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord;
his going forth is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth."


Also Exodus 20:4-6 confirms that Israel will be in the wilderness for two ages during the time of the visitation of their iniquities upon them.

The Joel reference to the valley of Jehoshaphat is the same place which is called Armageddon in Revelation 16:12-16.

Daniel 2:44 we are told that during the time of these kings, God will establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth.

In Daniel 7:13-14, we are told that after the judgement of the "beasts", the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, in heaven when their dominion is stripped off of them, that the Son of Man will be given a dominion ove all of the peoples of the earth.

Now, with all of these events tied together and occurring at the end of this present age, as described in Revelation 12, where we are told,

Revelation 12:7-12 Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."


In this translation the "now" in your translation has been replaced with the word "then", i.e. "Now, after Satan has been cast down to the earth,"

From a literary perspective, the "now" in ST's translation has a specific time frame of reference and cannot be understood as ST has suggested as happening at any other time prior to where it is found in the scripture passage in which it is found.

Shalom
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:50 am

Hi Shorty, :mrgreen:

shorttribber wrote:There is a Difference in the two, His "Coming" and "Harvest".


Of course there is a difference between His "Coming" and "Harvest" - however, where I believe that you do err, is how you have use this analogy to describe how you think things will occur. I respect that. But, it does not fit what is described in Matthew 24:29-31. More on this as I continue :mrgreen:

You further mention:

shorttribber wrote:And that the Tares are Among the Wheat until the "Harvest" is correct....Right Until the "Harvest"...Not right until His "Coming", but rather, Right Until the "Harvest".


Shorty, His Coming is WHEN the Harvest will occur - both events happen simultaneously. If one were to interpret otherwise, it would not jive up with Scripture, and would subsequently be a "private interpretation".

shorttribber wrote:So, I must disagree. There is a 3.5 year "Separation Time/Harvest Time" IN The Valley of decision...Before Christ Physically Returns to Pour out His Wrath.


Yes, we MUST disagree on this. You will find no where in Scripture that mentions a 3.5 year "Separation Time/Harvest Time." On the contrary, you will see that These events happen simultaneously as the Lord Returns!

Now, lets do take a look at Matthew 24:29-31 - as it doesn't get any clearer that this:

Matthew 24:29-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Shorty, what you see here is a very CLEAR picture of Christ Coming. ALL the tribes of the Earth will see Him Coming on the Clouds. A Trumpet Sounds and the Rapture occurs with the angels gathering the elect. The WICKED will see Him at His Coming. They are right there with the Righteous who will be Raptured. This is a very, very clear illustration of the Wheat being gathered to His barn (Heaven) and the Tares being gathered as well - however into bundles to be burned.

So again, yes we disagree on this 3.5 year period of separation that you are describing - as very respectfully, I don't think that it can be supported with Scripture.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:05 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Clearly ONE GENERAL RESURRECTION in the aforementioned passage of Scripture.


Sonbeam wrote:While Rev 20 does speak of a "first resurrection" (the resurrection of the dead in Christ) which implies a "second resurrection, " that being of "the rest of the dead" (the resurrection of nonbelievers.)


Well let me ask you this: If you believe that there will be a 2nd resurrection (which by the way Scripture NEVER mentions) - Then how can you say that there will not be a literal Millennial Reign of Christ :humm:


Oh, easy Mr. Baldy. :grin: The phrase "a thousand years" loses its literal meaning once we understand that time as we know it ceases to be or exist when Christ comes and the earth is destroyed.

Take a look at Rev 20 here. The events depicted here are in eternity mode. When the saints will have come to "life"
it will be eternal life for Christ has gathered them to Himself and the earth will have been destroyed.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.




]
Sonbeam wrote:Mr. Baldy, I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree on this point. I think it is time.


Mr. Baldy. Seems that you want to agree to respectfully disagree with anyone who brings forth evidence that clearly disputes what you bring forth. I accept the disagreement.


No, I choose to respectfully disagree when I see that the same "evidence" is being put forth by others as well as me over and over.

Then I see no sense in continuing to rehash the same arguments when it is obvious to me (and I bet to others bothering to read the posts) that neither one of us is going to change our convictions.

I get that from you on this "general resurrection, and I am convinced there will be two resurrections. So there we are.

:blessyou:

There is still one more area where I disagree with the author of the commentary I posted to start this thread. I will gather my thoughts on that and then post sometime later. :grin:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:29 am

Jay Ross wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:With that being said, Biblical Prophecy, both OT and NT, also tells us that there will be a time of judgement at the very end of this present age/beginning of the Millennium Age, of the Heathen Gentile kings and their armies after they have completed the 2,300 years of trampling [b]the sanctuary of God at Jerusalem [/b] ...........


Jay,

The sanctuary of God is now within the Body of Christ, which is His temple. There is no disputing this for this is what Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:

21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Blessings,

sonbeam




Sonbeam, technically, you are right but this is what the Daniel 8 prophecy tells us: -



Jay,

Technically? ? ? are you saying Christ is "technically" right in what He said to the woman at the well. It's not me that said those Words. It's not me being "right."

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:20 pm

Sonbeam wrote:The phrase "a thousand years" loses its literal meaning once we understand that time as we know it ceases to be or exist when Christ comes and the earth is destroyed.


Sonbeam, I actually agree with you here. :grin:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:22 pm

Sonbeam wrote:<snip>
Jay,

The sanctuary of God is now within the Body of Christ, which is His temple. There is no disputing this for this is what Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:

21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Blessings,

sonbeam


Sonbeam, technically, you are right but this is what the Daniel 8 prophecy tells us: -



Jay,

Technically? ? ? are you saying Christ is "technically" right in what He said to the woman at the well. It's not me that said those Words. It's not me being "right."

sonbeam


First off, Sonbeam, you are playing the person and not the content of what I had said.

I had qualified my statement that you were "technically" right, by stating that I was not sure of when the "now" in John 4:23 was to be effective from, but you have not quoted that part of my post along with the portion of what you quoted above.

"Technically", G:3568, which is also found approximately 142-147 times in the New Testament, can also be understood to have the meaning of "at this/that time" such that our understanding of John 4:23 could be understood to have the meaning of: -

John 4:21-24: - 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and (now)/(at this/that time) is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

The portion I have highlighted in bold red, seems to me to be indicating a future time when people will be worshipping God from within their very being.

Based on the present translations of verse 23 above, you are "technically" right, but if the translation of G:3568 is in error as I have suggested which is in line with the context of John 4:23b-24, then your are also "technically" wrong.

In my post that you had quoted from, I also said that we would both be surprised after we have been given revelation as to when Jesus words to the Samaritan has/will become true.

Because of your particular theological understanding of the scriptures, you see that G:3658 in John 4:23 has the meaning of "now" i.e. immediately after the time of his statement. I on the other hand looked further along in this passage and left the question of when those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth, up in the air so to speak and have not tried to be definite as to when this part will be fulfilled.

As such, we have to agree to disagree at this point in time on the understanding of the word "now".

Shalom
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:24 pm

Mr. Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:The phrase "a thousand years" loses its literal meaning once we understand that time as we know it ceases to be or exist when Christ comes and the earth is destroyed.



Sonbeam, I actually agree with you here.


FYI there is some form of time in eternity. A month is still a month. Which is a great reason to reconsider what you have just said.

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.


Think on that for a little... :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:43 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Mr. Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:The phrase "a thousand years" loses its literal meaning once we understand that time as we know it ceases to be or exist when Christ comes and the earth is destroyed.



Sonbeam, I actually agree with you here.


FYI there is some form of time in eternity. A month is still a month. Which is a great reason to reconsider what you have just said.

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.


Think on that for a little... :grin:

Seems to me that you've made a good point Ready 1

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:36 am

Ready1 wrote:
Mr. Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:The phrase "a thousand years" loses its literal meaning once we understand that time as we know it ceases to be or exist when Christ comes and the earth is destroyed.



Sonbeam, I actually agree with you here.


FYI there is some form of time in eternity. A month is still a month. Which is a great reason to reconsider what you have just said.

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.


Think on that for a little... :grin:



I concede Ready1 ........ Thank you for providing Scripture to make a very clear point.

Great catch! :mrgreen:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:26 pm

Not so fast guys! :grin:

A "month" in eternity mode is just another symbolic term or description just like "a thousand years" and not to be
taken literally either.

Let's take a look at the passage provided by Ready 1:

Rev 22
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.


The above is a highly symbolic description of the heavenly city on the new earth. And I hope we'll all agree that the
"tree of life" is symbolic of unending/eternal life which will have already been granted by God to His children.

Notice that I've highlighted the words "the healing, " and here's the reason why.

Take a look at Rev 21:

3. Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”


There will be no need for "leaves of the tree for healing" because in the eternal heavenly city "there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain" because there will be NO sickness or decay of any type. The old order of things will have passed away.

Bless you,

sonbeam
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:42 pm

Great points, sonbeam. I agree. :grin:

ETA: I think the 12-month supply referenced above simply means an unending supply.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:44 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Great points, sonbeam. I agree. :grin:


:a3:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:47 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:The phrase "a thousand years" loses its literal meaning once we understand that time as we know it ceases to be or exist when Christ comes and the earth is destroyed.


Sonbeam, I actually agree with you here. :grin:




Yaeey Mr Baldy. :grin:


:hugs:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:Great points, sonbeam. I agree. :grin:


:a3:

sonbeam


Forgot. :hugs:


:blessyou:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:54 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Forgot. :hugs:


Thank you, Sonbeam! Back at ya!

Thinking more about the 12-month supply of fruit....in reality, most fruit trees only bear fruit once a year, don't they? They're seasonal. So the unending supply makes more sense for an understanding of no necessity for a seasonal crop of fruit only during a determined timeframe.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:11 pm

But wait.......

Not so fast!

Abiding in His Word wrote:Thinking more about the 12-month supply of fruit....in reality, most fruit trees only bear fruit once a year, don't they? They're seasonal. So the unending supply makes more sense for an understanding of no necessity for a seasonal crop of fruit only during a determined timeframe.


Abiding are you suggesting that there will be no seasons in the Eternal State :humm:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:20 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Not so fast guys!

A "month" in eternity mode is just another symbolic term or description just like "a thousand years" and not to be
taken literally either.


Sarcasm ON: [By that logic, the seven days of creation were cetainly millions or billions of years. Why don't we just throw out all references to time from the past and in the future since they are all obviously symbolic and all Biblical time frames are certainly in error.] Sarcasm OFF

I am very curious Sonbeam, what gives you the authority to make a statement suggesting that a literal understanding is in error? For you to say that specified time frames, like "one thousand years", or "one month". or "six days", are simply symbolic terms is to strike at the veracity and truthfulness of God's word. You may believe that, but you should certainly qualify it as your own opinion.

I gave you a quotation from scripture. You gave me an opinion. The only way that you can get around the scripture which I gave you is to say that it really doesn't mean what it says. And that is what you have done.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:47 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Abiding are you suggesting that there will be no seasons in the Eternal State :humm:


No, Mr. Baldy. I'm only referencing Rev. 22:2 about the Tree of Life producing fruit every month. I'm actually out of my element in the topic of this thread, but just happened to drop by to add my thoughts about that one verse. The idea (to me) is a never-ending abundance or a supply that never fails.

That alone will likely be my only contribution but I'll continue to read as there are many wonderful thoughts to ponder here.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:37 pm

:snack:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:10 am

Ready1 wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Not so fast guys!

A "month" in eternity mode is just another symbolic term or description just like "a thousand years" and not to be
taken literally either.



I gave you a quotation from scripture. You gave me an opinion. The only way that you can get around the scripture which I gave you is to say that it really doesn't mean what it says. And that is what you have done.




Huh? :humm:

Did you not see/read the following scripture I quoted in answer to your post Ready 1? Here it is again:


Take a look at Rev 21:

3. Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”



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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:53 am

Ready1 wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Not so fast guys!

A "month" in eternity mode is just another symbolic term or description just like "a thousand years" and not to be
taken literally either.


Sarcasm ON: [By that logic, the seven days of creation were cetainly millions or billions of years. Why don't we just throw out all references to time from the past and in the future since they are all obviously symbolic and all Biblical time frames are certainly in error.] Sarcasm OFF

I am very curious Sonbeam, what gives you the authority to make a statement suggesting that a literal understanding is in error? For you to say that specified time frames, like "one thousand years", or "one month". or "six days", are simply symbolic terms is to strike at the veracity and truthfulness of God's word.



Ready 1,

Unless all of us here, myself included, keep in mind that when we are discussing how things may possibly be in eternity mode we need to remember that the old order of things will have changed, we will continue to talk past one another.


Rev 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.


So here is a question for all of us? How are seasons formed/created/caused on this earth during this present order of
things?

Do we have a scripture that tells us that during eternity mode all the elements that cause time/seasons here on earth during this present age will be present during the new order of things ...eternity?


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:20 am

Sunbeam wrote:Did you not see/read the following scripture I quoted in answer to your post Ready 1? Here it is again:


Take a look at Rev 21:

3. Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”


Of course I saw the scripture you provided. Why would you use a scripture with no reference to time to substantiate your position? I have no problem agreeing that in the coming time that “there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” The problem is that you have tried to say that this indicates that there will be no more form of time in the future when John has expressly stated that there will at least be “months” which is a form of time. By attempting to make the above scripture into a statement about “time”, you have also negated the clear words of scripture.

The problem with the scripture that you have used is that it does not say or imply what you are using it to say. So I stand by my statement...I gave you a clear scripture (and here it is again)

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 
Rev 22:2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations. 


And you gave me an opinion with a misapplied scripture which does not say what you imply that it says.... Here is your opinion which I believe is erroneous at best.

Sunbeam wrote:A "month" in eternity mode is just another symbolic term or description just like "a thousand years" and not to be taken literally either.


:grin:
Just observing.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:02 am

Here's what I found out on how seasons are formed on earth during this present age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season

"A season is a division of the year[1] marked by changes in weather, ecology, and amount of daylight. Seasons result from Earth's orbit around the Sun and Earth's axial tilt relative to the ecliptic plane.[2][3] In temperate and polar regions, the seasons are marked by changes in the intensity of sunlight that reaches the Earth's surface, variations of which may cause animals to undergo hibernation or to migrate, and plants to be dormant."



Here’s an explanation more my speed. Simple, short and to the point. :grin: This site is targeted for elementary-school-age kids. :grin:

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/seasons/en/

"Earth's axis is an imaginary pole going right through the center of Earth from "top" to "bottom." Earth spins around this pole, making one complete turn each day. That is why we have day and night, and why every part of Earth's surface gets some of each.

Earth has seasons because its axis doesn't stand up straight. "



My question again: do we have a scripture that says the same elements/conditions that cause time/seasons here on
this earth/universe during this present age will also be present in the eternal age to come?

P.S. I'm looking for one myself. :grin:


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:05 pm

We either haven't found a scripture (I haven't) for the question I posed, or we've lost interest. :grin:

But here’s another question to ponder:

How can the phrase “every month, ” used in Rev 22: 2, be anything other than symbolic since conditions/ markers for a day unit will not be there in eternity to measure weeks, months, years, etc.?

According to both Rev 22:2, 5 and Rev 21:25 there will be no night in eternity. But only continuing light by the glory of God.


Rev 21
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.



Rev 22
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.




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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:44 pm

There is what is called "phenomenal language", which is to say it expresses the phenomena experienced or observed. "The moon turned to blood", would be an example of that. We don't understand that the rock moon will transform into a liquid glob of blood in the sky, but it will look like it did.

Time, and it's related descriptive words, describe both sequence and duration of events. We exist in a "space/time continuum", and so the physical dimensions, with the addition of time, are the framework within which we function.

As I read things in the Revelation such as "a different fruit each month", I could see this as speaking towards a monthly seasonal progression on the earth, or I could see this as speaking of a 'month's worth of sequence and duration', that is, what seems like a month to us.

I believe that in the resurrection life, we will function within a much broader framework. But I personally don't really question the idea that there will be a different fruit about every four weeks. I think events will still happen in a sequence, and each with a certain duration.

Much love!
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. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:17 pm

Sonbeam wrote:We either haven't found a scripture (I haven't) for the question I posed, or we've lost interest.

But here’s another question to ponder:

How can the phrase “every month, ” used in Rev 22: 2, be anything other than symbolic since conditions/ markers for a day unit will not be there in eternity to measure weeks, months, years, etc.?

According to both Rev 22:2, 5 and Rev 21:25 there will be no night in eternity. But only continuing light by the glory of God.


Who is to say that there will not be time markers. Who's to say that the Tree of Life itself does not become a marker of time? How can we have a day upon the earth without a sun? Or a night without a sun or moon or stars. And yet we did.

Day One:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Day Four:


Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


If we just allow the scripture to mean what it says, it shows us an incredible God!
Just observing.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:25 am

Sonbeam wrote:Sonbeam on Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:05 pm We either haven't found a scripture (I haven't) for the question I posed, or we've lost interest.


Sonbeam wrote:How can the phrase “every month, ” used in Rev 22: 2, be anything other than symbolic since conditions/ markers for a day unit will not be there in eternity to measure weeks, months, years, etc.?


Hi Sonbeam,

Scripture does not answer whether or not this is figurative langue or symbolic language. When John was given this revelation, he was outside of this dimension. To suggest, to the point of dogma would be in error, and very frankly all that can be offered at this point is speculation.

This certainly needs to be put into perspective. God created time, and he created it for His own Glory and Purpose. Even though He is outside of time - there is a reason for time, and a "set day" He will Return. To suggest that time ceases in the Eternal State - I think would be in error as well. If John was outside of this dimension when he was given the revelation of things to come, then the question would become: "Why was John able to articulate the word Month?"

Sonbeam wrote:According to both Rev 22:2, 5 and Rev 21:25 there will be no night in eternity. But only continuing light by the glory of God.


While the aforementioned is very true - there is nothing written that would imply that time has ceased, or that this is one continuous day in Eternity.

Truth of the matter is we just don't know. Here is what John also had to say:

1 John 3:2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.


What does the aforementioned passage of Scripture mean?

Keep in mind, Jesus APPEARED after the Resurrection.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:28 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Who is to say that there will not be time markers. Who's to say that the Tree of Life itself does not become a marker of time? How can we have a day upon the earth without a sun? Or a night without a sun or moon or stars. And yet we did.
Day One:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Day Four:

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


If we just allow the scripture to mean what it says, it shows us an incredible God!



Hi Ready 1,

That there was day and night on the first day before the 4th day when the sun was created does not present a problem. God is light and He provided that light for the day. But there was also night.

In eternity, there will be no night. God Who is light will radiate His light continuously on the new earth. Rev 21 and 22.

I don’t see how we can try to apply or superimpose the same functional laws and principles God established for this finite material earth and universe to the creation of the new eternal heaven and earth.

This finite earth and universe were created for the perishable flesh and blood offspring of Adam to live/operate in.

The new heavens and the new earth will be eternal to be inhabited by the imperishable spiritual children of the new Adam -- Jesus Christ .

As Paul said in 1 Cor 15, first the natural then the spiritual.

45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:53 pm

mark s wrote:There is what is called "phenomenal language", which is to say it expresses the phenomena experienced or observed. "The moon turned to blood", would be an example of that. We don't understand that the rock moon will transform into a liquid glob of blood in the sky, but it will look like it did.

Time, and it's related descriptive words, describe both sequence and duration of events. We exist in a "space/time continuum", and so the physical dimensions, with the addition of time, are the framework within which we function.

As I read things in the Revelation such as "a different fruit each month", I could see this as speaking towards a monthly seasonal progression on the earth, or I could see this as speaking of a 'month's worth of sequence and duration', that is, what seems like a month to us.


Hi Mark,

I can believe that there would be sequence and duration of events happening in the new earth. But I cannot see the application of this earth's markers for time as God designed them for this finite world in Gen 1:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,


But in Rev 21:4, 5 God says:

4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”


The two statements that I highlighted are very straightforward, and state definitively that there will be a new order of things for the new world.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:10 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:How can the phrase “every month, ” used in Rev 22: 2, be anything other than symbolic since conditions/ markers for a day unit will not be there in eternity to measure weeks, months, years, etc.?


Hi Sonbeam,

Scripture does not answer whether or not this is figurative langue or symbolic language. When John was given this revelation, he was outside of this dimension. To suggest, to the point of dogma would be in error, and very frankly all that can be offered at this point is speculation.


I tend to agree with you Mr. Baldy, although I think that with the help of some scriptures we can offer "educated"
speculation. :grin:

Mr. Baldy: This certainly needs to be put into perspective. God created time, and he created it for His own Glory and Purpose. Even though He is outside of time - there is a reason for time, and a "set day" He will Return. To suggest that time ceases in the Eternal State - I think would be in error as well. If John was outside of this dimension when he was given the revelation of things to come, then the question would become: "Why was John able to articulate the word Month?"


Yes, Christ will return on a set day since the earth won't be destroyed till after He takes out His children.

John was given a vision. Does the scriptures say he was taken off this earth? I don't know. Just asking. As to why he was able to articulate the word month. I think because the vision was given to him in words John could relate to and understand.

Sonbeam wrote:According to both Rev 22:2, 5 and Rev 21:25 there will be no night in eternity. But only continuing light by the glory of God.


Mr. Baldy: While the aforementioned is very true - there is nothing written that would imply that time has ceased, or that this is one continuous day in Eternity.

Please see the scriptures that I quoted for Mark S in my previous post.

More on the rest of your post later Mr. Baldy.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:40 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
mark s wrote:There is what is called "phenomenal language", which is to say it expresses the phenomena experienced or observed. "The moon turned to blood", would be an example of that. We don't understand that the rock moon will transform into a liquid glob of blood in the sky, but it will look like it did.

Time, and it's related descriptive words, describe both sequence and duration of events. We exist in a "space/time continuum", and so the physical dimensions, with the addition of time, are the framework within which we function.

As I read things in the Revelation such as "a different fruit each month", I could see this as speaking towards a monthly seasonal progression on the earth, or I could see this as speaking of a 'month's worth of sequence and duration', that is, what seems like a month to us.


Hi Mark,

I can believe that there would be sequence and duration of events happening in the new earth. But I cannot see the application of this earth's markers for time as God designed them for this finite world in Gen 1:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,


But in Rev 21:4, 5 God says:

4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”


The two statements that I highlighted are very straightforward, and state definitively that there will be a new order of things for the new world.

sonbeam


And yet . . . He still speaks of months. Kinda makes one wonder, no? Just what will the new be? I can't wait to find out! And, it will be together with you!

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:12 pm

Sonbeam wrote:John was given a vision. Does the scriptures say he was taken off this earth? I don't know. Just asking.


Well here is what Revelation 4:1-2 has to say:

Revelation 4:1-2 I New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Scene in Heaven

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.


Appears he was "taken off this earth" to me :mrgreen:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:27 pm

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.  And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 2Cor. 12:2-4

Paul's experience is a perfect example of how one's spirit can be in the spiritual realm while the physical body remains on the earth. He knows he's been somewhere in the heavenly, but expresses confusion as to how that could be.

So the focus of such an experience should be on the message being relayed from regardless of whether or not we understand such an experience just like Paul didn't quite understand how that was possible.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:33 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.  And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 2Cor. 12:2-4

Paul's experience is a perfect example of how one's spirit can be in the spiritual realm while the physical body remains on the earth. He knows he's been somewhere in the heavenly, but expresses confusion as to how that could be.

So the focus of such an experience should be on the message being relayed from regardless of whether or not we understand such an experience just like Paul didn't quite understand how that was possible.


Abiding,

It is absolutely, totally wrong to argue:
Paul's experience is a perfect example of how one's spirit can be in the spiritual realm while the physical body remains on the earth.


You argue
So the focus of such an experience should be on the message


Well how about paying attention to the fact the scriptural message states clearly it is not known if he was in the third heaven in spirit or body:
whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know,[/b] God knows.


Sometimes, your reasoning just cracks me up.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:37 am

keithareilly wrote:Sometimes, your reasoning just cracks me up.


Keith, I'm not sure why my reasoning just cracks you up....

I was referencing Shorttribber's use of Rev. 4:1-2 and specifically the words "come up here" as evidence John physically left the earth as well as Mr. Baldy's agreement that it appears to be so.

So....based on Paul's words, I'm of the opinion that we can't actually be certain whether or not John's physical body left the earth. Supernatural experiences happen in the spiritual realm while the physical body is in a passive state while witnessing the prophetic revelation. Based on that, the focus should be on who/what was witnessed (the message) rather than whether or not it was their spirit or physical body and/or where each was.

Hope that clarifies my understanding. :wink:

You are free to disagree, of course.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:30 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:I was referencing Shorttribber's use of Rev. 4:1-2

Tweren't me :mrgreen:...........

I've just been read'n and :snack: snack'n


But maybe it could have been an out-a-body experience and I didn't know I did or didn't :mrgreen:
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:33 am

According to Ephesians 2, we are seated together with Christ in the heavenly realm.

According to Colossians 3, we are hid in Christ with God, Christ, of course, being in heaven.

According to 2 Corinthians 5, we presently have a celestial body, made for us by God Himself.

We've been born again . . . as what?

Are we terrestrial? Are we celestial?

I think we are something absolutely amazing!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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