What you must believe if, .....

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:24 am

I found a thoughtful commentary by Pastor Sam Storms on why he left premillennialism. His reasons for this are
worth examining IMO.

My departure from Premillennialism was gradual and came as a result of two discoveries as I studied Scripture. First, I devoted myself to a thorough examination of what the NT said would occur at the time of Christ’s second coming (or Parousia). What I found was a consistent witness concerning what would either end or begin as a result of our Lord’s return to the earth. Sin in the lives of God’s people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, and the inauguration of the New Heavens and New Earth would ensue. But why is this a problem for Premillennialism? Good question.


https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... ennialist/

:blessyou:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mark F on Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:50 pm

I would ask, what do you do with Rev 20 on?

Why would He need to rule the nations with a rod of iron if the 1000 years really don't occur?
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jericho on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:35 pm

Sin in the lives of God’s people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ.


How would he reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 15:26, which states that death is the last enemy to be defeated? That would suggest a progression rather than happening all at the same time.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:00 pm

Jericho wrote:
Sin in the lives of God’s people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ.


How would he reconcile that with 1 Corinthians 15:26, which states that death is the last enemy to be defeated? That would suggest a progression rather than happening all at the same time.


The author cites the following passage to substantiate that death is defeated at the second coming when the saints are resurrected at His second coming. And I agree that this is a very straightforward passage that signifies death is defeated at this time.

1 Cor 15:50-58

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”


I came across this pastor's commentary when doing research on the beliefs of premillennialism for our bible study class.
The majority of people in our class are PMs with only a couple of us holding different views. Makes for very interesting
and lively discussions. :grin:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:05 pm

Mark F wrote:I would ask, what do you do with Rev 20 on?

Why would He need to rule the nations with a rod of iron if the 1000 years really don't occur?


I did not find that phrase in Rev 20, or in the author's commentary. Maybe I missed it.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mark F on Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:54 pm

sonbeam,

It wasn't in the piece, it was a question I had.

To the church at Thyatira, the overcomers are promised to participate with Jesus as follows:

Rev 2:26  And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 
Rev 2:27  'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father; 


If at the return of Christ all those things occur immediately, like all are resurrected, the GWT judgement etc., why would this be mentioned? There won't be any need in the final state for us to rule with Him. Who will we rule over?

Then here again:
Rev_12:5  She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.


And here:

Rev_19:15  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



I just see this as pointless after reading the writer you linked to. It seems to me he thinks the Day of the Lord is one day.

sonbeam wrote: The author cites the following passage to substantiate that death is defeated at the second coming when the saints are resurrected at His second coming. And I agree that this is a very straightforward passage that signifies death is defeated at this time.

1 Cor 15:50-58

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”


This is most definitely true for all those in Christ, death has no sting and it is just as true for Paul at that time as he wrote it, and as it will be for all those in Christ at His second coming (or Parousia). The only difference being when we get our glorified bodies. Paul said in 2Co 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." I would venture to say that even if I die and do not receive my glorified body for years, I will be quite content that my spirit will be with Christ.

The passage above doesn't have to mean that as we are changed at His coming that there cannot be death at all, this passage is particularly speaking to the saved. And it would still be true "O death where is your victory?" even if this only is speaking of the church.  

And finally, do you just throw out what John wrote about the thousand years in Revelation 20?
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jericho on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:12 pm

The author cites the following passage to substantiate that death is defeated at the second coming when the saints are resurrected at His second coming. And I agree that this is a very straightforward passage that signifies death is defeated at this time.


Sonbeam,

That doesn't really address my question. Death is said to be the LAST enemy to be defeated, implying that there has to be a sequence of events. It does not imply it happens simultaneously at the Second Coming.

If you are amillennialist then you must necessarily have to invalidate many Old Testament prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom.

You must believe that there is no future role for the Jews, even though Zechariah says of them "In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” (Zec 8:20-23)

You must believe that Satan being bound for a thousand years is not literal. And where would you place the final rebellion in Revelation 20?

I think it is clear from OT prophecies that there will be a millennial kingdom. Read Zechariah 14, here's a few scriptures:

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day there will be one LORD—his name alone will be worshiped. Zec 14:9

In the end, the enemies of Jerusalem who survive the plague will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Shelters. Zec 14:1

Any nation in the world that refuses to come to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, will have no rain. Zec 14:17


When has this ever happened? And how can it happened if there is no millennial reign? The biggest proof is Isaiah 65:

“No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!

In those days people will live in the houses they build and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.

Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses and confiscate their vineyards. For my people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains.

They will not work in vain, and their children will not be doomed to misfortune. For they are people blessed by the LORD, and their children, too, will be blessed.

I will answer them before they even call to me. While they are still talking about their needs, I will go ahead and answer their prayers!

The wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat hay like a cow. But the snakes will eat dust. In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain. I, the LORD, have spoken!”


Such scripture only makes sense in the context of the millennial reign of Christ. The Millennial Kingdom is meant to be the day of rest. It is a partial restoration, a return to Eden. If you study Revelation you will see it is essentially Genesis in reverse. More on that here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=66878&p=562861#p562861

Also, consider why we need resurrected bodies, because we don't need them in heaven and they are doing just fine without them now. I believe we will need resurrected bodies so we can operate in this physical realm and rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mark F on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Jericho wrote:
The author cites the following passage to substantiate that death is defeated at the second coming when the saints are resurrected at His second coming. And I agree that this is a very straightforward passage that signifies death is defeated at this time.


Sonbeam,

That doesn't really address my question. Death is said to be the LAST thing to be defeated, implying that there has to be a sequence of events. It does not imply it happens simultaneously at the Second Coming.

If you are amillennialist then you must necessarily have to invalidate many Old Testament prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom.

You must believe that there is no future role for the Jews, even though Zechariah says of them "In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” (Zec 8:20-23)

You must believe that Satan being bound for a thousand years is not literal. And where would you place the final rebellion in Revelation 20?

I think it is clear from OT prophecies that there will be a millennial kingdom. Read Zechariah 14, here's a few scriptures:

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day there will be one LORD—his name alone will be worshiped. Zec 14:9

In the end, the enemies of Jerusalem who survive the plague will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Shelters. Zec 14:1

Any nation in the world that refuses to come to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, will have no rain. Zec 14:17


When has this ever happened? And how can it happened if there is no millennial reign? The biggest proof is Isaiah 65:

“No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!

In those days people will live in the houses they build and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.

Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses and confiscate their vineyards. For my people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains.

They will not work in vain, and their children will not be doomed to misfortune. For they are people blessed by the LORD, and their children, too, will be blessed.

I will answer them before they even call to me. While they are still talking about their needs, I will go ahead and answer their prayers!

The wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat hay like a cow. But the snakes will eat dust. In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain. I, the LORD, have spoken!”


Such scripture only makes sense in the context of the millennial reign of Christ. The Millennial Kingdom is meant to be the day of rest. It is a partial restoration, a return to Eden. If you study Revelation you will see it is essentially Genesis in reverse. More on that here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=66878&p=562861#p562861

Also, consider why we need resurrected bodies, because we don't need them in heaven and they are doing just fine without them now. I believe we will need resurrected bodies so we can operate in this physical realm and rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years.


Good post Jericho,


I agree with your assessment. I think Israel is key, it has a different destiny than the Church.

(edited for clarity)
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:14 pm

I agree with your assessment. I think Israel is key, it has a different destiny than the Church.


I'm with the two of you! :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:22 pm

Sonbeam wrote:I found a thoughtful commentary by Pastor Sam Storms on why he left premillennialism. His reasons for this areworth examining IMO.


Hi Sonbeam,

Thanks for posting this Article. I too have wondered if there is really a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ.

I attempted to post a similar Thread earlier - however, it was locked - and rightfully so, for reasons I believe caused this action; however, I won't mention.

I will mention this however.......I'm sorry, but Isaiah 65 has always presented "holes" - at least for me as solid evidence that there is a very literal Millennial Kingdom Reign of Christ. And Revelation 20 - although a very good foundation for believing that a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ will occur, is not proof enough either - at least in my humble opinion.

I don't have the time tonight to delve into what the article mentions - but I will say that I'm not completely convinced that a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ is in order. I have a very strong gut feeling that it ALL ENDS when Christ Appears. And I believe that it ALL ENDS when He appears can be supported with Scripture as well.

The Book of Revelation is Highly symbolic and uses a lot of metaphorical language - as does Isaiah 65.
But, it's really not going to matter to those who are in Christ anyway, because it will all be like one continuous Day for us, when we see Him as He IS.

I will be commenting more on this Thread, as time permits and after I have read the article.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:32 am

Mark F wrote:sonbeam,

It wasn't in the piece, it was a question I had.

To the church at Thyatira, the overcomers are promised to participate with Jesus as follows:

Rev 2:26  And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 
Rev 2:27  'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father; 


If at the return of Christ all those things occur immediately, like all are resurrected, the GWT judgement etc., why would this be mentioned? There won't be any need in the final state for us to rule with Him. Who will we rule over?


Hi Mark,

The author of the piece addressed your concerns this way:

"If the PM should question whether in fact Christ is presently ruling or reigning over every rule and authority and power, one need only read Ephesians 1:20-23 where precisely the same terms are used (arche, exousia, dunamis) in Paul’s description of what has been put in subjection under his feet (cf. also Colossians 1:13; 2:10,15)."


Here's Eph 1:18-23

18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.



I think the above passage is very definitive on the extent of God's power over all. And we know from man's history as narrated in the bible that He has exercised that power on individuals and nations at different times even up to this present age .

:blessyou:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:09 am

Jericho wrote:
The author cites the following passage to substantiate that death is defeated at the second coming when the saints are resurrected at His second coming. And I agree that this is a very straightforward passage that signifies death is defeated at this time.


Sonbeam,

That doesn't really address my question. Death is said to be the LAST enemy to be defeated, implying that there has to be a sequence of events. It does not imply it happens simultaneously at the Second Coming.


If we read the passage in context of what Paul said before in the chapter , it does Jericho.

1 Corinthians 15 New International Version (NIV)

The Resurrection of Christ and The Resurrection of the Dead

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.


And the phrase "when he comes" implies there is only ONE future coming not two.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:18 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:I found a thoughtful commentary by Pastor Sam Storms on why he left premillennialism. His reasons for this areworth examining IMO.


Hi Sonbeam,

Thanks for posting this Article. I too have wondered if there is really a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ.


I cannot find a substantiation in the Words of Christ for a 1000 year reign myself Mr Baldy. I am convinced there
won't be a literal one or that there is even a symbolic one going on in this earth like some do.


I normally do not get into discussions on this, but we are debating the topic in our bible study, and in doing research I
found the commentary we are discussing here.

Your comments will be most welcome.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 am

Jericho wrote:
The author cites the following passage to substantiate that death is defeated at the second coming when the saints are resurrected at His second coming. And I agree that this is a very straightforward passage that signifies death is defeated at this time.


Sonbeam,

If you are amillennialist then you must necessarily have to invalidate many Old Testament prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom.


Not invalidate them Jericho, but interpret them correctly in light of what our Lord and the Holy Spirit through His apostles wrote in the NT writings. Interpretation of OT writings must be Christocentric.

We cannot interpret the OT as a closed cannon like Judaism does.


Bless you!

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:58 am

Sonbeam,

You must believe that there is no future role for the Jews.


There is a future for the Jews as well as for any other ethnic group. But that future can only be found in Christ.

You must believe that Satan being bound for a thousand years is not literal. And where would you place the final rebellion in Revelation 20?


It is "literal" in that he will have to be out of the way (he won't have anything else to do :grin: ) while the earth is being destroyed. This will happen right after Christ gathers His children at his second coming.

Also, consider why we need resurrected bodies, because we don't need them in heaven and they are doing just fine without them now. I believe we will need resurrected bodies so we can operate in this physical realm and rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years
.

Jericho,

The bodies the children of God will get at His second coming will be spiritual bodies not flesh and blood. Spiritual bodies for a spiritual kingdom. Remember our Lord said His kingdom is not of this world.


1 Cor 15

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:25 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Your comments will be most welcome.


Thank you Sonbeam :grin:

And may I say that in viewing your responses - I think that you have responded very well.

The problem that most believers face, is that we have been taught a certain doctrine - and it has been alive and well for so long that most have a problem rejecting it; doing further research; and comparing it with other Scripture.

I have read the article that you submitted. I must say that the author makes total sense to me, and he backs what he says with Scripture and other references mentioned by others who agree, and that supported by Scripture as well.

I like how he reconciles the GWTJ and the Sheep & Goats Judgment as being one and the same - supported by other passages of Scripture that identifies that there will be ONE General Resurrection AT His Coming.

So, the aforementioned begs to identify what Scripture means by the "1st Resurrection - and how it relates to the 2nd Death?"

Well, that I think can be reconciled as well - but I will take a step back, and allow others to respond. :mrgreen:
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:46 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

Question, you keep referring to this article. Do you hold to this view?

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:32 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Sonbeam,

Question, you keep referring to this article. Do you hold to this view?

Much love!

Mark


Hi Mark S

I refer to the author’s commentary since I started this discussion by quoting some of his remarks. I consider his remarks very well thought out in refuting premillenialism

They parallel what I believe for the most part, in that like him, I don't believe there will be a millennium at all. Although if someone equates the phrase, "a thousand years" with eternity I will go for that. :grin:

And I also agree with what the author said here:

".... death is defeated and swallowed up in victory at the Parousia, the natural creation is set free from its bondage to corruption at the Parousia, the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately following the Parousia, all opportunity to receive Christ as savior terminates at the Parousia ......"


I'll next post the areas where I have some disagreements with him.

:blessyou:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:08 pm

Here is part of the author’s conclusion, found at the end of his commentary, where I differ from what he believes:
At the time of the second coming there will occur the final resurrection, the final judgment, the end of sin, the end of death, and the creation of the new heavens and new earth.


I’ll comment on what he sees as “the final resurrection” first.

I agree that there will be a final resurrection when the Lord comes, but it will be that of the elect only. This is the first resurrection spoken of in Rev 20:4-6.

Since there will be nonbelievers alive when Christ comes, they will have to die a physical death first before they can be resurrected. Their death will occur when the Lord destroys the earth and universe after the elect are taken out and nonbelievers are left behind. Matt 24:40-41

After this happens then all nonbelievers will have died a physical death and they will all be resurrected and face the white throne judgment “after the thousand years end.” Then they will experience the second death (spiritual) for their rejection of Christ.

When did nonbelievers experience the first death (spiritual)?

When Christ died on the cross for the sins of all men.


One thing to keep in mind when trying to interpret the “thousand year” phrase literally is that at the Lord’s coming, time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist.



Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:11 pm

This was the same discussion that I and Mr Baldy had where we disagreed.

You can go and read what transpired in that thread.

Basically, in the previous thread, I said that at the beginning of the Millennium Age, those who had been beheaded for the sake of Christ would be resurrected, and be priests with Jesus in Heaven during the 1,000 years that Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless pit. Then at the end of the Millennium Age, all the dead would be resurrected, both the wicked and the righteous. That I believe is the right understanding of the Revelation 20:4-6

You are welcome to hold a different point of view.

Shalom
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:51 am

Hi Jay,

I realize that you also hold a different point of view and you are welcome to do that.

What are your thoughts on the following statement I made in my last post?

One thing to keep in mind when trying to interpret the “thousand year” phrase literally is that at the Lord’s coming, time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist.


:blessyou:

sonbeam
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:25 am

Hi Sonbeam,

Again I thank you for bringing this topic up again. Now let's take a HARD look at what I believe that the author is trying to convey. He says this:

At the time of the second coming there will occur the Final Resurrection, the final judgment, the end of sin, the end of death, and the creation of the new heavens and new earth.


You respond:

Sonbeam wrote:I agree that there will be a final resurrection when the Lord comes, but it will be that of the elect only. This is the first resurrection spoken of in Rev 20:4-6.


I too once believed in this...but this view needs to be revisited. If we are to believe in a very literal Millennial Kingdom, then we ALL will have to understand that what is consider the 1st Resurrection is multi-layered - meaning it is not a single event occurring at one time, but spread out over a period of time before the Millennial Reign Ends.

Sonbeam wrote:Since there will be nonbelievers alive when Christ comes, they will have to die a physical death first before they can be resurrected. Their death will occur when the Lord destroys the earth and universe after the elect are taken out and nonbelievers are left behind. Matt 24:40-41


I somewhat disagree with you here. My response is two fold:

1st - If there is a very literal Millennial Kingdom, then that would mean that the GWTJ is very different from the Sheep & Goats Judgment. It would mean that at when Christ Returns to the Earth - the Sheep & Goats Judgment will commence where those who are alive at His Return will be separated. Those who are declared Righteous are placed on his right. These are also those who did not make the preceding RAPTURE. Those on His left are the wicked who are alive at His coming. Those on the left will be judged, and sent to Hades - where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. They will remain there until the 1,000 years are over and are subsequently judged at the GWTJ. The GWTJ is for the WICKED DEAD only. No one Righteous will be apart of this Judgment as it is the 2nd Death. The Wicked DEAD will be Judged, and thrown into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet are -- and have been there since the Return of Christ, and prior to the Millennial Kingdom commencing.

2nd - Now this is where the author mentioned in your Thread comes in - and what I think may be True. He is saying that there will be ONE General Resurrection. Both of the Living & the Dead. I must say that there are MANY, MANY, passages of Scripture that support this view. In that there is no literal Millennial Kingdom. That the Sheep & Goats Judgment and the GWTJ are ONE & THE SAME - AND it ALL ENDS at the Return of Christ.

Now, you also mention this:

Sonbeam wrote:Since there will be nonbelievers alive when Christ comes, they will have to die a physical death first before they can be resurrected. Their death will occur when the Lord destroys the earth and universe after the elect are taken out and nonbelievers are left behind. Matt 24:40-41


Sonbeam, respectfully - there is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that says that the "nonbelievers" who are alive when Christ comes have to "die a physical death first before they can be resurrected." Absolutely NOTHING.

Consider this: There will be believers who are alive at the Coming of Christ. There is NOTHING in Scripture that says that they have to be Resurrected! Scripture mentions that they are CHANGED at His Coming!

Please see what Paul had to say about this:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

51) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54) But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.


As you can clearly see.............. we who are alive are CHANGED. Those Righteous who are ALIVE at His Coming will not die only to be resurrected - but will be CHANGED to put on immortality.


Sonbeam wrote:One thing to keep in mind when trying to interpret the “thousand year” phrase literally is that at the Lord’s coming, time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist.


Sonbeam, again let me respectfully mention...... if "time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist" - then what would be the purpose of a designated time period of 1,000 years - or a Millennial Rein?

Seems to me that the author you mentioned has a very valid point - in that there is NO literal Millennial Kingdom.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:32 pm

If there is no literal 1000 year kingdom, then is Satan bound in chains for 1000 years at any point? Is there really a "bottomless pit"? Will Satan be available to "deceive the nations" for his whole existence? Will the souls of the beheaded have anything to look forward to? When will they come to life? If Satan is bound, will he be released? Is the first resurrection the same as the second resurrection? How long have the beast and the false prophet been in the lake of fire when Satan joins them?

Just curious ????

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.

Rev 20:3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.

Rev 20:8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore.

Rev 20:9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

Rev 20:10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


It seems a lot easier to just believe what it says.... :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:56 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Your post was a little confusing to me. Do you believe in a "millennial kingdom"?

I don't. I agree with the author on this.

However, what you said here leads me to believe you do. ??????

Mr. Baldy said: I too once believed in this...but this view needs to be revisited. If we are to believe in a very literal Millennial Kingdom, then we ALL will have to understand that what is consider the 1st Resurrection is multi-layered - meaning it is not a single event occurring at one time, but spread out over a period of time before the Millennial Reign Ends.


Which is fine with me, but it gets confusing when later on you say this:

Mr Baldy: Seems to me that the author you mentioned has a very valid point - in that there is NO literal Millennial Kingdom.


Also Mr. Baldy do you agree that when the Lord comes and the universe and earth are destroyed time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist?

Here's the caveat I gave before:

sonbeam said: One thing to keep in mind when trying to interpret the “thousand year” phrase literally is that at the Lord’s coming, time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist
.


This is very important if we are to determine if the phrase "a thousand years" has a literal meaning or a symbolic one with a different meaning.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:00 pm

Ready1 wrote:If there is no literal 1000 year kingdom, then is Satan bound in chains for 1000 years at any point? Is there really a "bottomless pit"? Will Satan be available to "deceive the nations" for his whole existence? Will the souls of the beheaded have anything to look forward to? When will they come to life? If Satan is bound, will he be released? Is the first resurrection the same as the second resurrection? How long have the beast and the false prophet been in the lake of fire when Satan joins them?Just curious ????


Ready1,

I understand your questions......as I have also questioned these same thoughts as you have mentioned. :mrgreen:

My question to you is have you really researched what this Author has mentioned, and compared them to the very questions that you have asked :humm:

Have you really taken the time to very carefully, and very diligently study End Time Prophecy? I am very respectfully asking this in light of what has been presented thus far. I mean absolutely NO disrespect towards you or your questions whatsoever.

Let me very respectfully mention that instead of looking at what you see, and may have been taught - why don't you take the challenge in delving into Scripture for yourself. Compare what you see in Revelation 20 to other passages of Scripture.

Please view what may be very symbolic and metaphorical language that is written in Revelation 20 to the rest of Scripture.

In my very humble opinion, there is overwhelming evidence that would appear to imply that when Christ Returns - then that is IT!

It will be - The End of the World period.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:07 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Your post was a little confusing to me. Do you believe in a "millennial kingdom"?


Hi Sonbeam,

If you carefully read my post - this is what I said:

IF we are to believe in a very literal Millennial Kingdom


"IF" should NOT imply "confusion".

If you re-read my post, I mentioned 2 analogies, and I gave examples of PRO and CON Millennial Kingdom.

Please read what I have written to see my view.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:15 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Also Mr. Baldy do you agree that when the Lord comes and the universe and earth are destroyed time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist?


Yes Sonbeam, I totally get your point.

Now, let me ask you this..............

Since you have removed the element of "Time" as we know it in a Mortal sense - will what you have mentioned occur simultaneously as HE appears?

Sonbeam wrote:This is very important if we are to determine if the phrase "a thousand years" has a literal meaning or a symbolic one with a different meaning.


My aforementioned question to you should incorporate this question as well.

Looking forward to your response.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:29 pm

Why did the leaders of the Jews miss the fact that Jesus was the Messiah? Did Jesus indicate at any point that He was a literal King? Did Jesus ever indicate a physical kingdom? Were the OT passages which indicated that the Son of David would reign forever wrong? Did they indicate a physical kingdom on earth? What was the last question the disciples asked Jesus before his ascension into heaven? What are the religious Jews of today still looking for? Why will Israel fall for the anti-Christ in the future? Why is the understandable language given of a physical kingdom if there is no earthly kingdom? What is the stone that “became a mountain and filled the whole earth”? Does the stone really “fill the whole earth?” Who is the “righteous branch” and what is he King over? What is the sheepfold of the Lord where he will “gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them?” What does it mean to “see the son of man coming in his kingdom” if there is no kingdom? Why did Zebedee’s wife ask for her sons to sit beside Jesus when he comes into his kingdom if there is no kingdom? What does it mean to have “seen the kingdom of God come with power” if there is no kingdom?

Still curious....
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:43 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Hi Jay,

I realize that you also hold a different point of view and you are welcome to do that.

What are your thoughts on the following statement I made in my last post?

One thing to keep in mind when trying to interpret the “thousand year” phrase literally is that at the Lord’s coming, time as we know it and understand it will cease to be or exist.


:blessyou:

sonbeam


Sonbeam, the problem is understanding the timeframe for when Christ comes in all of His Glory with all of the Heavenly Hosts.

I have always kept an open mind on when the visitations of the Lord occur.

In Luke 14:31-32, we have a picture of Christ judging the kings of the nation at the end of this present age with the Jewish Nation seeking Christ's terms of peace.

In Matthew 25:1-1, we have another picture of Christ's visitation to claim His Bride, a Redeemed Israel after the beginning of the Millennium Age.

It is for this reason that my understanding of Matthew 24:3, is that the disciples ask about the signs of his comings, i.e. more than one coming as demonstrated in Luke 14 and Matthew 25 above, and also when, the end of the final, i.e. the seventh age, age would be.

I have consistently argued that the time of Christ's coming on the clouds with all of the Heavenly Hosts will be at the end of the Millennium/seventh Age. This is in agreement with the article that you provided the link to, in your opening post.

I also understand that "Time," as we know it, ceases to exist when the Age of Eternity begins immediately after the final events of the Millennium Age have run their full course.

I have also consistently argued that an age is a little longer than 1,000 years and is somewhere around the digitial number that can be represented on the ten digits of our two hands, i.e. 1,024. A construction of the genealogy of the patriarchs confirms this when we calculate that the year when Isaac was born, was in the year 2049 after the creation of Adam, given that Adam was created at the beginning of the first year of the existence of mankind. Therefore, 2048 years separate the creation of Adam from when Isaac was born, or to express it another way, after two ages had passed at the very beginning of the third age.

That means that Satan will have somewhere around 24 or so years after the 1,000 years when the bottomless pit is unlocked and he is free to return to the face of the earth. In Revelation 12:12 this is way we are told that Satan has great wrath in that he knows that he only has a short time left to march all over the earth and come up against Jerusalem.

As such, it is also my understanding that the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a literal 1,000 years period.

As such I am in agreement with the author of the article that the Pre- millennium/ Pre-rapture understanding is not supported by scripture.

Shalom
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:10 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

I reread your post and I apologize. When I first read your post, I had gotten the impression that you were still undecided on whether there will be a millennium or not.

Will address a couple of your comments soon.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:19 am

Hi Jay,

You said:

In Matthew 25:1-1, we have another picture of Christ's visitation to claim His Bride, a Redeemed Israel after the beginning of the Millennium Age.

It is for this reason that my understanding of Matthew 24:3, is that the disciples ask about the signs of his comings, i.e. more than one coming as demonstrated in Luke 14 and Matthew 25 above, and also when, the end of the final, i.e. the seventh age, age would be.

I have consistently argued that the time of Christ's coming on the clouds with all of the Heavenly Hosts will be at the end of the Millennium/seventh Age. This is in agreement with the article that you provided the link to, in your opening post.


I do not see a scripture that specifically says Christ will come back two more times. So let's agree to disagree here.


Jay said: I also understand that "Time," as we know it, ceases to exist when the Age of Eternity begins immediately after the final events of the Millennium Age have run their full course.


Thank you Jay. We are in agreement in that time ceases to exist when eternity begins. But we disagree as to when that happens because you see a millennium happening and I don't. Again, let's respectfully disagree.

:blessyou:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:58 am

Ready1 wrote:Why did the leaders of the Jews miss the fact that Jesus was the Messiah? Did Jesus indicate at any point that He was a literal King? Did Jesus ever indicate a physical kingdom? Were the OT passages which indicated that the Son of David would reign forever wrong? Did they indicate a physical kingdom on earth? What was the last question the disciples asked Jesus before his ascension into heaven? What are the religious Jews of today still looking for? Why will Israel fall for the anti-Christ in the future? Why is the understandable language given of a physical kingdom if there is no earthly kingdom? What is the stone that “became a mountain and filled the whole earth”? Does the stone really “fill the whole earth?” Who is the “righteous branch” and what is he King over? What is the sheepfold of the Lord where he will “gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them?” What does it mean to “see the son of man coming in his kingdom” if there is no kingdom? Why did Zebedee’s wife ask for her sons to sit beside Jesus when he comes into his kingdom if there is no kingdom? What does it mean to have “seen the kingdom of God come with power” if there is no kingdom?

Still curious....


Hi Ready1, you have posted some excellent questions. I'll take a couple of them.

You asked:

Why did the leaders of the Jews miss the fact that Jesus was the Messiah? Did Jesus indicate at any point that He was a literal King?



My answer:

The Jews were expecting the Christ to be an earthly king. And as far as I can see, I do not find any scriptures where Jesus claimed to be an earthly king with an earthly kingdom. And He refused to be made an earthly king by the Jews:


John 6:15
Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself




Jesus described His kingdom several times this way:


John 18:36
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”



Matt 7;21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Matt 26:29

I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”



:blessyou:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:24 am

Ready1 wrote: Were the OT passages which indicated that the Son of David would reign forever wrong? Did they indicate a physical kingdom on earth?


These two questions are extremely important and my answer will bring on many rebuttals as to why the scriptures
do not mean what they say.

However, the answer to your questions is found in scripture:


1 Kings 2:

2 When the time drew near for David to die, he gave a charge to Solomon his son.
2 “I am about to go the way of all the earth,” he said. “So be strong, act like a man, 3 and observe what the Lord your God requires: Walk in obedience to him, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and regulations, as written in the Law of Moses. Do this so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go 4 and that the Lord may keep his promise to me: ‘If your descendants watch how they live, and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’


1 Kings 6:11-13

11 The word of the Lord came to Solomon: 12 “As for this temple you are building, if you follow my decrees, observe my laws and keep all my commands and obey them, I will fulfill through you the promise I gave to David your father. 13 And I will live among the Israelites and will not abandon my people Israel.”


1 Kings 9: 4 “As for you, if you walk before me faithfully with integrity of heart and uprightness, as David your father did, and do all I command and observe my decrees and laws, 5 I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’


1Kings 11:9
The Lord became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the Lord’s command.


So from the above scriptures we can see that the promise for a continuing earthly kingdom for David and his descendants was conditional.

And the narrative of how the Lord chose to punish Solomon, and in him all Israel is there in the scriptures.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:40 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Sonbeam,

Now, you also mention this:

Sonbeam wrote:Since there will be nonbelievers alive when Christ comes, they will have to die a physical death first before they can be resurrected. Their death will occur when the Lord destroys the earth and universe after the elect are taken out and nonbelievers are left behind. Matt 24:40-41


Sonbeam, respectfully - there is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that says that the "nonbelievers" who are alive when Christ comes have to "die a physical death first before they can be resurrected." Absolutely NOTHING.


Here is one scripture:

Heb 9:27
And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


Plus I referenced Matt 24:40-41 to show that nonbelievers will be left behind at the Lord’s second coming. Here is that passage now with the inclusion of preceding verses starting with vs 36 because they further explain why nonbelievers will suffer physical death at His coming.

Matt 24:36-41

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[h] but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left.


The above shows that the Lord was equating what happened to nonbelievers during the flood to what is going to happen to nonbelievers at His coming.

In other words, God only rescued Noah and his family and left everyone else behind to suffer physical death during the flood.

Therefore, He is saying that at His second coming He will only take out His children and will leave nonbelievers behind to suffer death during the destruction of the earth.

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:43 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Hi Jay,

You said:

In Matthew 25:1-1, we have another picture of Christ's visitation to claim His Bride, a Redeemed Israel after the beginning of the Millennium Age.

It is for this reason that my understanding of Matthew 24:3, is that the disciples ask about the signs of his comings, i.e. more than one coming as demonstrated in Luke 14 and Matthew 25 above, and also when, the end of the final, i.e. the seventh age, age would be.

I have consistently argued that the time of Christ's coming on the clouds with all of the Heavenly Hosts will be at the end of the Millennium/seventh Age. This is in agreement with the article that you provided the link to, in your opening post.


I do not see a scripture that specifically says Christ will come back two more times. So let's agree to disagree here.


I agree with you that there are no scriptures that specifically state that Christ will come back two more times, nor do I specifically know of a scripture that specifically says that Christ will be coming back only once more. As to the actual number of visitations of Christ since He ascended after the crucifixion until He returns in all of His Glory with all of the heavenly hosts is also not actually stated and as such the Bible is silent as far as I know as to the number of times that there will be a visitation of Christ to the earth over the ages between these two events.

As such any discussion/argument as to whether there is only one more visitation or many more visitation before the final return is futile since the bible is silent on this matter.

I also accept that at the present time, we need to agree to disagree but would counsel that any further comments not be dogmatic that there is only one more visitation because of the apparent silence of the scriptures on this particular matter.

Sonbeam wrote:
Jay said: I also understand that "Time," as we know it, ceases to exist when the Age of Eternity begins immediately after the final events of the Millennium Age have run their full course.


Thank you Jay. We are in agreement in that time ceases to exist when eternity begins. But we disagree as to when that happens because you see a millennium happening and I don't. Again, let's respectfully disagree.

:blessyou:

sonbeam


Just again to be clear, what I said was the form of time as we presently know it to be will cease to exist. What the form of time will be in Eternity will certainly be different to what we understand time to be at present.

Because of your end time understanding I agree that we should respectfully disagree and leave further discussion to that.

Shalom

Jay
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:10 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Sonbeam,

Now, you also mention this:

Sonbeam wrote:Since there will be nonbelievers alive when Christ comes, they will have to die a physical death first before they can be resurrected. Their death will occur when the Lord destroys the earth and universe after the elect are taken out and nonbelievers are left behind. Matt 24:40-41


Sonbeam, respectfully - there is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that says that the "nonbelievers" who are alive when Christ comes have to "die a physical death first before they can be resurrected." Absolutely NOTHING.


Here is one scripture:

Heb 9:27
And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


Plus I referenced Matt 24:40-41 to show that nonbelievers will be left behind at the Lord’s second coming. Here is that passage now with the inclusion of preceding verses starting with vs 36 because they further explain why nonbelievers will suffer physical death at His coming.

Matt 24:36-41

36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[h] but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left.


The above shows that the Lord was equating what happened to nonbelievers during the flood to what is going to happen to nonbelievers at His coming.

In other words, God only rescued Noah and his family and left everyone else behind to suffer physical death during the flood.

Therefore, He is saying that at His second coming He will only take out His children and will leave nonbelievers behind to suffer death during the destruction of the earth.

sonbeam



Hi Sonbeam,

I have read your aforementioned response. It appears that you have left out ONE very key word to what I mentioned.

Here is what I wrote again:

Mr Baldy wrote:Sonbeam, respectfully - there is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that says that the "nonbelievers" who are alive when Christ comes have to "die a physical death first before they can be resurrected." Absolutely NOTHING.


In your response - I saw NOTHING that mentioned a RESURRECTON.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:25 pm

Sonbeam here is Matthew 25:31-46

Which details the events at the Sheep & Goats Judgment:


Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


If you'll notice in the aforementioned passages of Scripture we have a depiction of the Coming of Jesus. There are those who are Righteous and Wicked - and they are ALL Alive at His Coming. There is NO RESURRECTION - described for either. The wicked are described as going "away to eternal punishment".

So, in light of you mentioning that the wicked have to "die a physical death before they can be "resurrected" - I would love to observe your comments.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:51 pm

Sonbeam wrote:So from the above scriptures we can see that the promise for a continuing earthly kingdom for David and his descendants was conditional.

And the narrative of how the Lord chose to punish Solomon, and in him all Israel is there in the scriptures.


The thing that you have demonstrated with the passages that you have cited is that obedience brings blessing and disobedience brings discipline. If Solomon and his progeny are faithful to God, then God will fulfill his promise to David through them. If they are unfaithful, he will fulfill His promise to David another way.

God's promise to David was NOT conditional. Read it for yourself and then show me where the conditions are....
Here are three passages which deal with God's unconditional promises for a "continuing earthly kingdom" to David.

2Sa 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
2Sa 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
2Sa 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
2Sa 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2Sa 7:17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.



2Sa 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.
2Sa 7:25 And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.
2Sa 7:26 And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.
2Sa 7:27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
2Sa 7:28 And now, O Lord GOD, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
2Sa 7:29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.


1Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
1Ch 17:12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
1Ch 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
1Ch 17:14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
1Ch 17:15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:09 am

Ready 1

I fully understand your reluctance to accept what the scriptures say. The supposedly unconditional promise made
to David by God is the lynchpin upon which the earthly millennium kingdom doctrine is founded. Pull that out and the whole idea collapses.

I respectfully ask you that you examine the whole counsel of scripture starting with the scriptures I posted above
and also the one below:


2 Chron 7:

17 “As for you, if you walk before me faithfully as David your father did, and do all I command, and observe my decrees and laws, 18 I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor to rule over Israel.’

19 “But if you[a] turn away and forsake the decrees and commands I have given you[b] and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 20 then I will uproot Israel from my land, which I have given them, and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. I will make it a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 21 This temple will become a heap of rubble. All[c] who pass by will be appalled and say, ‘Why has the Lord done such a thing to this land and to this temple?’ 22 People will answer, ‘Because they have forsaken the Lord, the God of their ancestors, who brought them out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them—that is why he brought all this disaster on them.’”



And we know Solomon did turn away from God, and as a result, God brought on Israel all that He promised He would do.

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Last edited by Sonbeam on Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:26 am

Mr. Baldy said:

I have read your aforementioned response. It appears that you have left out ONE very key word to what I mentioned.

Here is what I wrote again:

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam, respectfully - there is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that says that the "nonbelievers" who are alive when Christ comes have to "die a physical death first before they can be resurrected." Absolutely NOTHING.

In your response - I saw NOTHING that mentioned a RESURRECTON.


Mr. Baldy,

It is my understanding from your previous posts that you agree that after the believers are taken out (Matthew 25:31-46) the Lord will destroy the earth/universe.

Therefore, all the nonbelievers (which will have been left behind) would undoubtedly perish at that time.

I believe that it should be understood then, without the need to mention the word "resurrection, " that nonbelievers will have to be resurrected afterwards in order to stand in the white throne judgment.


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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:26 pm

Hi Sunbeam

I have no problem with the passages that you have provided. They are conditional. But to whom are they conditional? They are conditional to those who followed after David. Once again, when God makes an unconditional promise, as he did to David, then he carries it out thru flawed men and women. That is where the scriptures that you have provided come in.

The conditions are: If you do this, then I will do this. So for the following passages, it goes like this...

Solomon: If you walk faithfully, (then) I will establish your throne.
But Solomon: If you don't then Israel gets the boot, along with the temple.

That is a great example of a conditional statement and you have correctly identified it as such.

17 “As for you, if you walk before me faithfully as David your father did, and do all I command, and observe my decrees and laws, 18 I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father when I said, ‘You shall never fail to have a successor to rule over Israel.’

19 “But if you[a] turn away and forsake the decrees and commands I have given you[b] and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 20 then I will uproot Israel from my land, which I have given them, and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. I will make it a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 21 This temple will become a heap of rubble. All[c] who pass by will be appalled and say, ‘Why has the Lord done such a thing to this land and to this temple?’ 22 People will answer, ‘Because they have forsaken the Lord, the God of their ancestors, who brought them out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them—that is why he brought all this disaster on them.’”


NOW look again at the passages where God makes his promise to David. Since there are no qualifiers, I will simply underline the promises of God. Not conditioned by anything. You are not recognizing this as an unconditional passage.

2Sa 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
2Sa 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
2Sa 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
2Sa 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2Sa 7:17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.


One further note: the fact that God places conditions upon the ones who follow after an unconditional promise (like Solomon did) does NOT make his promise conditional. It simply makes it conditional whether the one who follows shares in that promise or whether he does not.

There is only one sentence in the whole of this covenant which is conditional, and it deals with Soloman. And it tells what will happen if he doesn't follow the Lord. But once again, it does not set aside the unconditional portions of this promise to David. Here it is.

...If he commit iniquity, (then) I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:


Oh, and please take back your snide comment.

I fully understand your reluctance to accept what the scriptures say.


I accept what the scriptures say and simply believe that you have come to some very erroneous conclusions which ultimately affect your end-time views.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:04 pm

Ready 1

I am sorry my remark offended you. That wasn’t my intent.

I was just stating something that is very true of all of us, myself included. And that is that we are usually very reluctant to let go of long held beliefs/convictions when confronted by a different opinion, even if scriptures
are provided.

I think you and I have posted enough scriptures to buttress our beliefs regarding God’s
covenant with David. The Holy Spirit will illuminate for each of us on this thread that which is His Truth.

Therefore, let’s agree to disagree on this subject.

:blessyou:

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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Ready1 on Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:46 pm

Sonbeam wrote:The Jews were expecting the Christ to be an earthly king. And as far as I can see, I do not find any scriptures where Jesus claimed to be an earthly king with an earthly kingdom. And He refused to be made an earthly king by the Jews:


Jesus will be an earthly King with an earthly Kingdom. It is yet future, and the Apostle John saw it unfolded before his very eyes. After the final apocalyptic battle with Satan on the earth, Jesus will reign on the earth for one thousand years and maybe longer. Where, if not on earth, does the following passage take place? or are you saying that the plain reading of scripture does not mean what it says? Or would you just rather believe that there is no earthly kingdom so we do not have to deal with the implications of it.

Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for He judges fairly and wages a righteous war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were like flames of fire, and on His head were many crowns. A name was written on Him that no one understood except Himself.
Rev 19:13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and His title was the Word of God.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From His mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress.
Rev 19:16 On His robe at His thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: "Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared.
Rev 19:18 Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great."
Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the One sitting on the horse and His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 19:21 Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came from the mouth of the One riding the white horse. And the vultures all gorged themselves on the dead bodies.
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


God the Father sees Jesus as a King as well. In speaking of Jesus,

Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.
Heb 1:9 You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, Your God has anointed You, pouring out the oil of joy on You more than on anyone else."
Heb 1:10 He also says to the Son, "In the beginning, Lord, You laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with Your hands.
Heb 1:11 They will perish, but You remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing.


And here are a couple of more...

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


To suggest that Jesus will not have an earthly kingdom is to ignore the OT prophecies and the NT Revelation.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:25 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Mr. Baldy said:

I have read your aforementioned response. It appears that you have left out ONE very key word to what I mentioned.

Here is what I wrote again:

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam, respectfully - there is absolutely NOTHING in Scripture that says that the "nonbelievers" who are alive when Christ comes have to "die a physical death first before they can be resurrected." Absolutely NOTHING.

In your response - I saw NOTHING that mentioned a RESURRECTON.


Mr. Baldy,

It is my understanding from your previous posts that you agree that after the believers are taken out (Matthew 25:31-46) the Lord will destroy the earth/universe.

Therefore, all the nonbelievers (which will have been left behind) would undoubtedly perish at that time.

I believe that it should be understood then, without the need to mention the word "resurrection, " that nonbelievers will have to be resurrected afterwards in order to stand in the white throne judgment.


sonbeam


Sonbeam, you are understanding my post incorrectly - subsequently missing the point.

I posted what is mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 at the Judgment that ensues at the Coming of Christ. This Judgment talks about the Nations being gathered before HIM.

When Jesus Returns to the Earth the dead "In Christ" are Resurrected and we who are alive are Changed - as I've mentioned before. Scripture doesn't use the term "resurrected" when referring to the wicked who are Alive at His coming; but does refer to the wicked dead as being resurrected.

See this:

John 5:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Again, this clearly supports the theory of ONE GENERAL RESURRECTION. Where I believe you error is that you feel that those Wicked who are Alive At His Coming are somehow made Dead, only to be Resurrected to face the GWTJ. "IF" you think this way - then I don't believe that Scripture supports this idea.

The aforementioned passage of Scripture would appear to support the idea that the Sheep & Goats Judgment, which is mentioned in Matthew 25-31-46 - also known to many students of Scripture as the "Judgment of the Nations"; is ONE AND THE SAME AS THE GWTJ.

Now, Revelation 19:21 gives a depiction of the Wicked being destroyed at His Coming and being eaten by birds. And unless this all occurs simultaneously at the Day of the Lord - then I don't get your point about the Wicked who are Alive at His Coming being made dead, only to be resurrected to face Judgment. In contrast - I see them destroyed at His Coming or separated from the Righteous who have been Raptured - and taken into Judgment and sent to the Lake of Fire.

Therefore this "separation" must be understood. The one's taken are the wicked who are "taken" into Judgment. Also at this separation the Righteous are allowed to enter the Eternal Kingdom.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:54 pm

Just one other idea I wanted to point out Mr. B.,

I've mentioned it before, I think a couple times to you before.....I will repost it again...

Just as I kept on about the Daniel 9:27 passage, I will point this out again...
This Sheep and Goat judgment is not as critical maybe as the correct understanding of Daniel 9:27, but I do think I have the right idea on it.....anyway, here it is again....

..................................................................................................................................................
Mr Baldy,

It is understandable that you, Mark and so many others look on the Sheep and Goat Judgment as Literal. But I still do not agree, and there are many reasons why.

Firstly, as mentioned earlier, the language used....please notice
vs 32.....before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,........ AS........ a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Note here, at this point......it has been suggested to me that he is not telling a parable because the word ....AS....is used.
but........read further now....
vs 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
He does not continue this idea with the word........AS.
Could he not have said, and he shall separate.... those nations that are.........AS........Sheep........or........those nations that are............AS........Goats?

No, He plainly Indicates that he directly intended to call them Sheep and Goats............since all the people are not actually "Sheep" or "Goats" it is clear and Very Reasonable that he was speaking in a parable.

Secondly, The text in question sits at the end among the Other Preceding Parables that speak of The "Coming" of Christ.
Each of those parables have a General Theme/Pattern, it's a Separation time for ALL, There will be those who are Described/Illustrated as Wise or Foolish, Prepared or Unprepared, Wheat or tares, Faithful Servants or Faithless Servants, and Finally, Sheep or Goats.

Thirdly, Because the Pattern is so well Defined, I'm Persuaded to believe that there is Strong Reason to see this portion of the text as a non Literal expectation, and not to be Separated from the others, and receive it as Absolutely Literal.

Fourthly, It has been said, and the idea defended that where the Greek word "Erchomai" (strongs 2064) is used, that That Alone Proves it Must be understood in the Literal Sense Only. But that is just not correct......the following is a wonderful example.
Math 17
10.............Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

We know that Elijah (Elias, spelling difference) did not Literally Come "Erchomai". But in the Spirit, Power, and Mantel of Anointing.......OF...... Elijah, John the Baptist WAS the Chosen Vessel Among the Pots that BECAME the VOICE of God.
There are more examples, but this should be enough, especially since it is Directly Related to the Voice of God in an Earthen Vessel Prior to, and........ During........ Christ's First "Coming/Parousia".

Fifthly, Where the text, according to the King James Version says " When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:", here is the most critical part.
Here, at this point is where the Power, Mantel of Anointing, Presence/Parousia, Voice, Grace, and Glory of the TRUE GOD and His Testimony IN the Saints will be Fulfilled...............At SOME POINT.......DURING the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation.
Antichrist will have come to be Seated AMONG the Saints as a Liar...and Loser.........BUT.......Christ will be SEATED....IN........the Saints..........and the Testimony and Truth of Christ will be Known and VOICED by the Vessels of God, the 144,000 and the Church.
That will be...............A...................Seating of Christ on His throne of Glory......that is to be Revealed IN the Saints IN THAT DAY.
2 thes 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When............. he shall........ come (Echomai/strongs 2064).......... to be.......... GLORIFIED in his SAINTS,.......... and to be admired in all them that believe (because....... our testimony...... among you was BELEIVED)
IN THAT DAY.

For these reasons and several more that i'll not add here, that it is not a fact and Absolute that I Must understand this Expression and Illustration of the Coming of Christ as Literal.

And also as I answered Mark here....
shorttribber wrote:It says the day of the Lord is NEAR in the Valley of Decision , not PAST. Zion is a Spiritual Place that God dwells in the Midst of His People Already.....We have already COME unto Mt. Zion and into the Company of the Innumerable Ministers that are Sent Forth to Minister. Our Citizenship is New Jerusalem already, freedom is there rather than the Bondage of Sin and Condemnation.......he will Roar by the Voice of His Spirit .........IN, Seated on His Throne of Glory, IN.......the Saints........During the 3.5 Confirmation of The Covenant.


Blessings to ya brother, eventually we will all know for certain.......as for now, Koinonia in what Matters Most...Growing in Grace and Love in Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:35 am

Hi Shorty,

I get your point. You see the Sheep & Goats Judgment as a parable - and it very well may be. I'm not doubting that, I have only questioned whether or not it was literal.

I thought once that it was literal - in that I thought that is was a different Judgment than the GWTJ. Now I am not so sure. If it is indeed a parable - then, I totally understand that, as it makes sense that it would be one and the same Judgment as the Great White Throne Judgment.

Now, my question to you is - Do you believe that there will be a literal Millennial Reign of Christ?
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:07 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Shorty,

I get your point. You see the Sheep & Goats Judgment as a parable - and it very well may be. I'm not doubting that, I have only questioned whether or not it was literal.

I thought once that it was literal - in that I thought that is was a different Judgment than the GWTJ. Now I am not so sure. If it is indeed a parable - then, I totally understand that, as it makes sense that it would be one and the same Judgment as the Great White Throne Judgment.

Now, my question to you is - Do you believe that there will be a literal Millennial Reign of Christ?

Hi Mr. B.
I'm of the opinion that there Will be a Literal Reign of Christ on this earth. It's seems to me that Rev 20 makes it quite impossible to believe otherwise.
After having a look again at how I view the Sheep and Goat Judgment, it should be plain that I have no trouble at all with seeing scripture that is commonly understood by most as a literal judgment before the throne of God, as NOT a Literal Event ( AT a Literal Throne).

I say that because I have the view that there is just No Reasonable Way to view ALL of the Wording of the Whole of Rev chap 20 as nonliteral!

The reason though for my adding my comments about the sheep and Goat Judgment is to show that we NEED NOT see it as any Comparison at all with the White Throne Event.

I DO NOT view the Sheep/Goat & White Throne as the Same Judgment, OR that it Occurs At the Same Space of Time.

The Sheep/Goat Judgment occurs DURING the WHOLE 3.5 Year great Trib IMO. In Other words, The 3.5 year Great Trib IS THE SHEEP/GOAT JUDGMENT, It Is the Separating of the Wicked from the Just that Will Occur During THAT TIME.

It Is God's Power and Truth CONFIRMED IN The Saints and Against the temporary kingdom of darkness!

Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It is a Separation of the False from the True...The Separation of Rebellious from the Faithfull....the Separation from Light and Darkness.

It IS the CONFIRMATION of the Abrahamic Covenant PART TWO!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:55 am

IF the sheep and goats judgement is a parable, an allegory, then what else in the Bible is parable? And how can we know?

Seriously?

Why would we not accept it just as it is written?

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:57 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:The Jews were expecting the Christ to be an earthly king. And as far as I can see, I do not find any scriptures where Jesus claimed to be an earthly king with an earthly kingdom. And He refused to be made an earthly king by the Jews:


Jesus will be an earthly King with an earthly Kingdom. It is yet future, and the Apostle John saw it unfolded before his very eyes. After the final apocalyptic battle with Satan on the earth, Jesus will reign on the earth for one thousand years and maybe longer. Where, if not on earth, does the following passage take place? or are you saying that the plain reading of scripture does not mean what it says? Or would you just rather believe that there is no earthly kingdom so we do not have to deal with the implications of it.

Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for He judges fairly and wages a righteous war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were like flames of fire, and on His head were many crowns. A name was written on Him that no one understood except Himself.
Rev 19:13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and His title was the Word of God.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From His mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress.
Rev 19:16 On His robe at His thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: "Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared.
Rev 19:18 Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great."
Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the One sitting on the horse and His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 19:21 Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came from the mouth of the One riding the white horse. And the vultures all gorged themselves on the dead bodies.
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


God the Father sees Jesus as a King as well. In speaking of Jesus,

Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.
Heb 1:9 You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, Your God has anointed You, pouring out the oil of joy on You more than on anyone else."
Heb 1:10 He also says to the Son, "In the beginning, Lord, You laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with Your hands.
Heb 1:11 They will perish, but You remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing.


And here are a couple of more...

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


To suggest that Jesus will not have an earthly kingdom is to ignore the OT prophecies and the NT Revelation.



I have no problem with the scriptures you quoted Ready 1, but they don't say that our Lord's kingdom will be an
earthly one.

I take Christ at His Word when he said this:

John 18:36

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

It doesn't get any plainer than that.

sonbeam
Last edited by Sonbeam on Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:58 pm

mark s wrote:IF the sheep and goats judgement is a parable, an allegory, then what else in the Bible is parable? And how can we know?

Seriously?

Why would we not accept it just as it is written?

Much love!

Mark


I have explained my Reasons in this Particular instance mark....I will briefly list those Reasons to see THIS AS a parable.
............................................................................................................................................
shorttribber wrote:Firstly, as mentioned earlier, the language used....please notice.....
He plainly Indicates that he directly intended to call them Sheep and Goats............since all the people are not actually "Sheep" or "Goats" it is clear and Very Reasonable that he was speaking in a parable.

shorttribber wrote:Secondly, The text in question sits at the end among the Other Preceding Parables that speak of The "Coming" of Christ.Each of those parables have a General Theme/Pattern, it's a Separation time for ALL, There will be those who are Described/Illustrated as Wise or Foolish, Prepared or Unprepared, Wheat or tares, Faithful Servants or Faithless Servants, and Finally, Sheep or Goats.

shorttribber wrote:Thirdly, Because the Pattern is so well Defined, I'm Persuaded to believe that there is Strong Reason to see this portion of the text as a non Literal expectation, and not to be Separated from the other parables , and receive it as Absolutely Literal.

shorttribber wrote:Fourthly, It has been said, and the idea defended that where the Greek word "Erchomai" (strongs 2064) is used, that That Alone Proves it Must be understood in the Literal Sense Only. But that is just not correct......the following is a wonderful example.Math 1710.............Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

shorttribber wrote:Fifthly, Where the text, according to the King James Version says " When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:", here is the most critical part.Here, at this point is where the Power, Mantel of Anointing, Presence/Parousia, Voice, Grace, and Glory of the TRUE GOD and His Testimony IN the Saints will be Fulfilled...............At SOME POINT.......DURING the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation.
shorttribber wrote:2 thes 17 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;10 When............. he shall........ come (Echomai/strongs 2064).......... to be.......... GLORIFIED in his SAINTS,.......... and to be admired in all them that believe (because....... our testimony...... among you was BELEIVED) IN THAT DAY.

.................................................................................................................................................


Above are Five Reasons mark,
And Those Five Reasons are Good Reasons i believe. I do not place ANY scripture in a catagory of Spritual or Literal without Good Reason.

I think it is Much More Reasonable than picturing a Throne out in the Middle of a Field or On a Mountain Top with all the NATIONS Gathered Around it for THIS Judgment to Occure Literaly.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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