Eternal Life

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:43 am

Question:

Are ALL those who will inherit Eternal Life Predestined?
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby slick on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:09 am

YES....ALL mankind are destined for HELL "FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT..." "....there are none righteous not one..."

HOWEVER, Because of HIS GREAT LOVE he sent his son to REDEEM SOME...those whose name were written in the book from all eternity!!!

In His GRACE!!
Clarence
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:18 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Question:

Are ALL those who will inherit Eternal Life Predestined?


Yes. God has mercy upon whom He has mercy and He hardens whom He hardens.

Romans 9:18-21
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?



In general, most people think there exists: Either Freedom or choice, Or Predestination.
The mistake is they think it must be one or the other when it actually both exist together as a unit, like opposite sides of the same coin. You can't have predestination if freedom of choice does not exist. You cannot have freedom of choice if predestination does not exist.

Consider Adam. he was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And he did not for a very long time. So we know he chose not to eat of the fruit for a very long time. Yet, we also know sin and death came into the world because he chose to eat of the fruit.

Let's ask some questions:
If death did not exist in the world until after Adam disobeyed, what was Adam's expected life span? Infinity!
Given an infinite amount of time, what was the probability that Adam would choose to eat of the Fruit? 100 percent!

So if there is a 100 percent chance that Adam would choose to eat of the fruit, then it was predestined that Adam would eat of the fruit.


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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:57 am

keithareilly wrote:Let's ask some questions:
If death did not exist in the world until after Adam disobeyed, what was Adam's expected life span? Infinity!


Only if Adam chose to eat of the Tree of Life and we are not told he did so.

Given an infinite amount of time, what was the probability that Adam would choose to eat of the Fruit? 100 percent!
So if there is a 100 percent chance that Adam would choose to eat of the fruit, then it was predestined that Adam would eat of the fruit.


The very essence of a choice is that one has the freedom to make decisions to determine the best outcome among a number of possibilities.

... "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely... 

Thus Adam had the freedom to choose which tree he would partake of on any given day at any given time. Instead, he used his freedom to choose to ignore the only boundary God gave him.

If Adam's sin was predestined by God....then God is to blame for Adam's sin.

We have scripture that is evidence (Gen. 3:15, Isaiah 7:14; 9:6 ) that a Savior would come for "whosoever shall...."
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:30 pm

slick wrote:YES....ALL mankind are destined for HELL "FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT..." "....there are none righteous not one..."

HOWEVER, Because of HIS GREAT LOVE he sent his son to REDEEM SOME...those whose name were written in the book from all eternity!!!

In His GRACE!!
Clarence


Hi Slick!

Always good to hear from you Brother. I really enjoy you comments - and your posts :mrgreen:

You have mentioned that "Because of HIS GREAT LOVE he sent his son to REDEEM SOME... those whose name were written in the book from all eternity!!!"

Well, that is a very good conclusion - but what do you do with John 3:16:

John 3:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


:humm:
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:00 pm

keithareilly wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:Question:

Are ALL those who will inherit Eternal Life Predestined?


Yes. God has mercy upon whom He has mercy and He hardens whom He hardens.

Romans 9:18-21
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?



In general, most people think there exists: Either Freedom or choice, Or Predestination.
The mistake is they think it must be one or the other when it actually both exist together as a unit, like opposite sides of the same coin. You can't have predestination if freedom of choice does not exist. You cannot have freedom of choice if predestination does not exist.

Consider Adam. he was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And he did not for a very long time. So we know he chose not to eat of the fruit for a very long time. Yet, we also know sin and death came into the world because he chose to eat of the fruit.

Let's ask some questions:
If death did not exist in the world until after Adam disobeyed, what was Adam's expected life span? Infinity!
Given an infinite amount of time, what was the probability that Adam would choose to eat of the Fruit? 100 percent!

So if there is a 100 percent chance that Adam would choose to eat of the fruit, then it was predestined that Adam would eat of the fruit.


Keith



Hi Keith,

You bring up some very, very interesting comments to consider. :mrgreen:


Here are some of the points you have made that need to be discussed:

keithareilly wrote:In general, most people think there exists: Either Freedom or choice, Or Predestination.


Yes, this is absolutely True - but then you mention this:

keithareilly wrote:The mistake is they think it must be one or the other when it actually both exist together as a unit, like opposite sides of the same coin. You can't have predestination if freedom of choice does not exist. You cannot have freedom of choice if predestination does not exist.



Okay, in the aforementioned two comments that you made - do you not see an apparent contradiction with the rest of your comments on this issue?

First, again you mention: That most think there exist either Freedom or choice - in contrast to Predestination.

Then you mention that the "mistake is that they think it must be one or the other when actually BOTH exist together."

Which I WHOLEHEATEDLY AGREE with - and is the very reason why I wanted to get input and/or insight on this topic.

Okay let's re-mention what you wrote: "You cannot have freedom of choice if predestination does not exist" And " You can't have predestination if freedom of choice does not exist."

I think that you error in the rest of your comment in that you are making a HUGE assumption on the fact about DEATH and the timing that Adam ate the fruit based on Choice as it relates to infinity.

Consider Adam. he was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And he did not for a very long time. So we know he chose not to eat of the fruit for a very long time. Yet, we also know sin and death came into the world because he chose to eat of the fruit.


You are DOGMATICALLY assuming that he would have ate REGARDLESS of the fact that he had a choice - well this in itself leaves absolutely NO CHOICE. You also further make this assumption leaving no room whatsoever for Predestination. You don't know if it was "a very long time" or otherwise - meaning immediately, or shortly thereafter Eve had been created. Scripture is unclear on this.

Predestination has absolutely NOTHING to do with God's Foreknowledge that Adam would have eaten the fruit as it relates to those He has Sovereignly chose before the foundation of the World.

I will give others a chance to comment on this topic - as I have much to say about it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:14 pm

keithareilly wrote:Let's ask some questions: If death did not exist in the world until after Adam disobeyed, what was Adam's expected life span? Infinity!


This is a HUGE Assumption. :eek:

This comment in itself leaves out the Foreknowledge of God!
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Adam had the freedom to choose which tree he would partake of on any given day at any given time. Instead, he used his freedom to choose to ignore the only boundary God gave him.

:a3:

Abiding in His Word wrote:If Adam's sin was predestined by God....then God is to blame for Adam's sin.


Great comment!

The aforementioned comment could sound really, really harsh for those who are just coming into the knowledge of Christianity - but we must be as the Bereans of Scripture.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Mr Baldy,

Romans 5:12-14
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So, If Adam had not sinned, would Adam have died? No.

Did God know Adam would sin? Of course He knew.
Given freedom and an indefinite amount of time, it is mathematically impossible for Adam to have not sinned.

It is the very freedom Adam had to sin or not sin, that predestined Adam to sin.
If God had not created Adam with the freedom to choose, then Adam would have obeyed and never sinned.
It is the fact the God gave Adam the freedom to chose that resulted in Adams sinning.

I stand by what I said.
Freedom to chose and predestination are a bound together.
You can't have one without the other.



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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:45 am

Hi Keith,

Let's take a closer examination of what you responded with:

keithareilly wrote:If Adam had not sinned, would Adam have died? No.


This is really a hypothetical question that should not even come forth - as it is totally irrelevant as it relates to the Foreknowledge of God.

keithareilly wrote:Did God know Adam would sin? Of course He knew. Given freedom and an indefinite amount of time, it is mathematically impossible for Adam to have not sinned.


Again, an indefinite amount of time as it relates to freedom and the Foreknowledge of God is irrelevant. However, earlier you wrote this:

keithareilly wrote:Consider Adam. he was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And he did not for a very long time. So we know he chose not to eat of the fruit for a very long time.


Here you say that Adam did not eat the fruit for a very long time - how do you know this - and how does the time it took him to eat and become disobedient have to do with the fact that God had the Foreknowledge that he would eat? Point I am making is "time" is irrelevant in this matter.

keithareilly wrote:It is the very freedom Adam had to sin or not sin, that predestined Adam to sin.
:humm:

Absolutely NOTHING "predestined" Adam to sin.

keithareilly wrote:Freedom to chose and predestination are a bound together. You can't have one without the other.


I don't know exactly what you mean here. And it may be that you are explaining Predestination in a different light. I want to provide what Scripture has to say about Predestination:

Romans 8:28-30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


The aforementioned passage of Scripture relates to the theory of "election". However, Scripture also mentions:

John 3:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


This clearly relates to Choice.

There are many more passages of Scripture that identifies BOTH Choice and Election. And it is not impossible that BOTH exist.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby slick on Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:11 am

Mr Baldy
Well, that is a very good conclusion - but what do you do with John 3:16:

John 3:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


:humm:
[/quote]

This is a common passage which often gets brought up within this discussion.. in short its true, whoever believes in HIM shall be saved...let me illustrate with a story...

a large group of tourists occupying multiple buses stopped for a rest and quick bite. As expected were mingling together chatting about the trip...when bus driver #1 called i need whoever is riding MY bus to please get on board....

this certainly as often the case does not completely satisfy the question with an irrefutable answer but it simply acknowledges the ALL/WHOEVER has multple meaning.

its easier for ME to believe an OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT chose then to believe a DEAD man responding!!

In His Grace,
Clarence
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:07 am

I believe the doctrine is called "Prevenient Grace", and a good Scripture to show what that means is from Titus, "the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men".

God gives the ability to believe to those who believe. We know this from such as Galatians 2:22. Or is it 20? And the life I live, I live by the faith of the Son of God. Not my faith, Jesus' faith.

I believe that all we have or need comes from God, including the grace needed to choose.

It's just silly to me to think that God urges you to do what you cannot, with no remedy. Why bother otherwise?

Well, I was going to stay away from this thread, because the fact is, the topic really burns me up!

Because how can some one imagine a God Who created a people to love, but then for whatever reasons throws billions or whatever into the lake of fire - - - with NO REMEDY.

Man oh man!

Jesus is the Remedy, and Jesus is enough. I do not denigrate His Love.

Oh, How Much He Loves Us!!!

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:14 am

slick wrote:
This is a common passage which often gets brought up within this discussion.. in short its true, whoever believes in HIM shall be saved...let me illustrate with a story...

a large group of tourists occupying multiple buses stopped for a rest and quick bite. As expected were mingling together chatting about the trip...when bus driver #1 called i need whoever is riding MY bus to please get on board....

this certainly as often the case does not completely satisfy the question with an irrefutable answer but it simply acknowledges the ALL/WHOEVER has multple meaning.

its easier for ME to believe an OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT chose then to believe a DEAD man responding!!

In His Grace,
Clarence


Hi Clarence,

My friend, I feel you have misrepresented the passage. There isn't that qualifier in the actual Scripture. Whosoever, I think, has a certain meaning unless modified with qualifiers.

The driver opens the doors, steps out to the crowd, and says, "Whoever wants, anyone, you can get on my bus now". And we whisk away!

And I understand, I too have difficulty believing certain things some times. But it's not about whether or not I think it makes any sense. It's simply and solely, does the Bible say it's so?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:36 am

Take a look at the passages which teach on predestination.

Let's take the fave:

For those He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn of a big family. OK. Slightly paraphrased.

Predestined to salvation? That's not what it says. Predestined to be made like Jesus.

And who is predestined to be made like Jesus? The ones God knew ahead of time.

So . . . How did He know them?

Is it the Book of Life?

But the Bible talks about people's names remaining in the book, while others are blotted out.

God told Moses His deal. The soul that sins I will blot from My book, He said.

So it must be that the names of the living were written in God's book. But when they sin, they are removed. But for those who are justified, their names remain. God doesn't blot at our first sin. Romans 5 gives an excellent study on that part.

Jesus brought grace, and to every man. Jesus brought light, enlightening every man. And now God calls every man to repentance.

Those who receive His grace, their sins are not imputed, their names remain. Those who do not receive His grace, well, it's either God's Grace or their sin, so they get stuck with their sin, and their name is blotted out.

So it's God's foreknowledge of whose names will remain. And for those, whom He foreknew, He also did place boundaries ahead of time (predestinate - prohoridzo - pro - in advance, horidzo, horizon or boundary.

This is God's way of getting an early start. So everything works for our good! :grin:

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:34 pm

mark s wrote:Take a look at the passages which teach on predestination.

Let's take the fave:

For those He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn of a big family. OK. Slightly paraphrased.

Predestined to salvation? That's not what it says. Predestined to be made like Jesus.

And who is predestined to be made like Jesus? The ones God knew ahead of time.

So . . . How did He know them?

Is it the Book of Life?

But the Bible talks about people's names remaining in the book, while others are blotted out.

God told Moses His deal. The soul that sins I will blot from My book, He said.

So it must be that the names of the living were written in God's book. But when they sin, they are removed. But for those who are justified, their names remain. God doesn't blot at our first sin. Romans 5 gives an excellent study on that part.

Jesus brought grace, and to every man. Jesus brought light, enlightening every man. And now God calls every man to repentance.

Those who receive His grace, their sins are not imputed, their names remain. Those who do not receive His grace, well, it's either God's Grace or their sin, so they get stuck with their sin, and their name is blotted out.

So it's God's foreknowledge of whose names will remain. And for those, whom He foreknew, He also did place boundaries ahead of time (predestinate - prohoridzo - pro - in advance, horidzo, horizon or boundary.

This is God's way of getting an early start. So everything works for our good! :grin:

Much love,
Mark

And that's how I understand it also. :a3:
this one most important part is what always seems to be overlooked in this whole controversy....
mark s wrote:Predestined to salvation? That's not what it says. Predestined to be made like Jesus.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:11 pm

Romans 5:12-14
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

James 1:14-15
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Sin entered the world through Adam, Death followed as death is a consequence of sin.
Before Sin entered the world, before Adam sinned, death had not yet entered the world.
Because death had not yet entered, Adam was a type of Him who was/is to come.

All indcations are Adam was eternal prior to sinning.
Only after sinning was he prevented from eating from the tree of life.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:38 pm

It would seem to me that eating from the tree of life would have made Adam live forever even though having sinned.

That leads me to think that it would have made some fundamental change in his biology to eliminate physical death, something that wasn't there otherwise.

Though Keith, I don't know the real answer to the thought, why the tree of life if only sin kills, and Adam was not allowed access to the tree of life after sinning?

I do wonder, was there to be a time when God would have given to Adam to eat from the Tree of Life, and he would have become as we will be, in a sinless state of innocence, our life supplied by the Holy Spirit?

Interesting questions!

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:56 pm

Mark,

Consider this perspective.

Sin is corruption.
Sin compromises integrity.
Integrity is when something is whole and complete without structural flaws, it is when everything is aligned properly and functions properly.

When Adam sinned, he was compromised, he ceased functioning properly, death resulted.
It is like a steel bridge that is compromised by rust, eventually, it will fail and eventually the bridge itself will cease to exist. The bridge will turn to dust.

I think the tree of life would correct this, returning integrity.
The Holy Spirit grants us such power that sin may no longer reign within our flesh, but sin still lives in our flesh and is condemned in the flesh. Through Christ's death, the corruption in us is arrested and begins to be reversed through the Holy Spirit. Hence we experience the renewing of the mind, a quickening, etc.

Sin resides in our flesh, so our flesh is lost, not our spirit. Thus we must be given new imperishable bodies.
(See 1 Corr 15:52:54)

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:50 am

mark s wrote:Predestined to salvation? That's not what it says. Predestined to be made like Jesus.


Hummm :humm:

Predestined to be made like Jesus equates to Salvation - otherwise why be predestined?

mark s wrote:And who is predestined to be made like Jesus? The ones God knew ahead of time.


My point exactly. Those whom He Foreknew WILL inherit Eternal Life.

mark s wrote:But the Bible talks about people's names remaining in the book, while others are blotted out.


:humm:

You will find NO clear example where names are blotted out of the Book of Life (if indeed you are referring to it).
Is it mentioned - YES absolutely, but this alone does not necessarily imply that there are those who's name are blotted out. This is an assumption on your part.

mark s wrote:But the Bible talks about people's names remaining in the book, while others are blotted out.


:humm:

Scripture please.


There are names of those who are very clearly chosen by God. Here are a few:

1) Moses
2) Paul
3) Joseph
4) Jeremiah
5) The Apostles

And there are many more.....question becomes - Did they actually have a Choice to inherit Eternal Life?
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:05 am

Did they actually have a Choice to inherit Eternal Life?


The choice is made available by spreading the word.
Accepting reveals who the children of God are and rejecting reveals who are not.
I am grateful I was chosen to accept.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:50 am

keithareilly wrote:Accepting reveals who the children of God are and rejecting reveals who are not.


Not in ALL cases. Hence the reason why this Thread was started.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:20 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Accepting reveals who the children of God are and rejecting reveals who are not.


Not in ALL cases. Hence the reason why this Thread was started.


Don't worry, I'm going to backtrack to answer the posts. but this fascinates me. "not in all cases". What does this mean? That you believe both election to salvation and freedom to choose salvation, both at the same time?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:09 am

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

Consider this perspective.

Sin is corruption.
Sin compromises integrity.
Integrity is when something is whole and complete without structural flaws, it is when everything is aligned properly and functions properly.

When Adam sinned, he was compromised, he ceased functioning properly, death resulted.
It is like a steel bridge that is compromised by rust, eventually, it will fail and eventually the bridge itself will cease to exist. The bridge will turn to dust.

I think the tree of life would correct this, returning integrity.
The Holy Spirit grants us such power that sin may no longer reign within our flesh, but sin still lives in our flesh and is condemned in the flesh. Through Christ's death, the corruption in us is arrested and begins to be reversed through the Holy Spirit. Hence we experience the renewing of the mind, a quickening, etc.

Sin resides in our flesh, so our flesh is lost, not our spirit. Thus we must be given new imperishable bodies.
(See 1 Corr 15:52:54)

Keith


Hi Keith,

I look at God's warning: ON the day you eat you will die. I don't see this as, "begin to die". I see it as "die".

But I don't see death as necessarily meaning inactivity. I understand physical death to be the spirit/soul separated from the body, though not without existence in the hidden realm.

I understand spiritual death to be separation from God, though we remain active in this realm.

One thing I have disagreement with in your comment,

Through Christ's death, the corruption in us is arrested and begins to be reversed through the Holy Spirit. Hence we experience the renewing of the mind, a quickening, etc.


You may well mean the same as I, however, I would not say that the corruption is arrested and reversed.

I believe the corruption of the flesh is complete, total, and non-repairable. The only thing for the flesh is to simply disallow it to serve itself, instead, making it serve us as God's children, while we wait for it's replacement.

I do not believe the flesh will ever be improved. Only replaced. But like I said, it sounds like we're talking about the same thing regardless.

One thing I'd like to add regarding Adam's "100% chance to sin" granted infinite time. There must be the presupposition that nothing else will act to change things, kind of a uniformatarianism. But what if the tree test was only meant for a certain time? After which God did something more? Like to give Adam from the Tree of Life. If that Tree is Jesus, then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil could very well become passe after that time.

Your thoughts?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:13 pm

I have just brief thoughts on the whole subject of predestination that is relevant, effective , and does impact the Whole Understanding Entirely upon the subject.

The idea that the primary scriptures under examination in Romans 8 Apply Essentially and Primarily to Each Individual that are the Elect or Called, is in itself an error.

The position that I would hope to introduce is that these scriptures Apply to the Foreknowledge of God regarding the Conformity to the "Image of His Son", For the Body of Christ as a "Whole" of the "Sons of God".
In other words, this (Romans 8 {upon predestination}) does not speak at all as pertaining to Each Individual Person, and their inability to Choose for themselves wherether or not they shall be Ultimately Saved or obtain eternal life.

This text speaks of God Subjecting those "as a whole body",whom He Calls to the Testing and Trials of the Flesh while Himself, Having the Foreknowledge that Those "AS a Whole" WILL Ultimately be Conformed into the VERY Image of His Dear Son.

I speak not about this Conformity or Glory occurring AFTER we are gathered to Christ at the rapture....or as Obtaining this Conformity as the Ultimate salvation of our Souls, no.
I speak of this "Conformity" in light of Eph 4....That's is, When we "As a WHOLE Body of Christ" Come to the Perfection of the Fullness of the Stature of Christ! That is "The Very Image of Christ", WHILE STILL ON THIS EARTH...and...BEFORE Christ Comes in the Flesh to receive us to Himself at the rapture.

This is what God has "Predestined" pertaining "Us".

If you doubt it, look at the scriptures in light of how the earth groans still, WAITING for the "Manifestation" of the "Sons of God".

This time is coming soon..........and God has this Hope and Confidence in His Foreknown Plan for us, that it Will happen, and we Will Fulfill Exactly what he has Predetermined for His Body "As A Whole".


That's what I think of the predestination texts.... :banana: and God will prove if it is correct or not. :banana: That's what I believe.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:31 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
mark s wrote:Predestined to salvation? That's not what it says. Predestined to be made like Jesus.


Hummm :humm:

Predestined to be made like Jesus equates to Salvation - otherwise why be predestined?


Hi Mr Baldy,

I'm simply sticking with the Biblical terminology and Biblical usage and definitions. Yes, many have equated conformation to Jesus with salvation itself. But I don't see that in the wording itself. And I do see a different picture emerge when I stick to the very Words of Scripture.

And if I do equate these, then it runs me into conflict with other passages. So . . . I stick with the text, and no conflict.

mark s wrote:And who is predestined to be made like Jesus? The ones God knew ahead of time.


My point exactly. Those whom He Foreknew WILL inherit Eternal Life.


This part I'm especially interested in hearing from you regarding. What exactly does it mean to you , these words, "those whom He Foreknew". What exactly what it that God knew ahead of time?

mark s wrote:But the Bible talks about people's names remaining in the book, while others are blotted out.


:humm:

You will find NO clear example where names are blotted out of the Book of Life (if indeed you are referring to it).
Is it mentioned - YES absolutely, but this alone does not necessarily imply that there are those who's name are blotted out. This is an assumption on your part.


In saying this is an assumption on my part . . . are you so certain as all that?

Of course, you say, no clear example, what constitutes clear? And to whom?

Exodus 32 NKJV

30 Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! 32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.”

33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. 34 Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.”


Psalm 69:28 (NKJV)

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.


These talk about people being blotted from God's book. I've just noticed that Young's simply puts this as, "they are blotted out".

Revelation 17:8 (NKJV)

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.[a]


This one, and Revelation 13:8, very similar, use the perfect tense verb written, that is, written and remaining.

I think there are a couple of other passages, in truth, not many, but then, how many do we need?


There are names of those who are very clearly chosen by God. Here are a few:

1) Moses
2) Paul
3) Joseph
4) Jeremiah
5) The Apostles

And there are many more.....question becomes - Did they actually have a Choice to inherit Eternal Life?


Chosen indeed! But for what?

Moses . . . chosen to be a truster in God? Or chosen to be the agent of Israel's deliverance?

Paul . . . chosen to be forgiven? or chosen to be the apostle to the Gentiles? What does the Word say when it talks about this?

Acts 22:12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ (YLT)


Something I don't read here is that Paul was chosen to believe, or to be forgiven, or reborn.

He was chosen to:

Know God's will.
See Jesus.
Hear Jesus' physical voice.

So, says Ananias, what are you waiting for? Come on! Get saved!

The 12.

Have I not chosen you 12, yet 1 of you is a devil?

Chosen for salvation? Or chosen to be sent out with the Good News?

If 1 was a devil, I'm thinking salvation and rebirth was not the actual issue here. Chosen to be with Jesus from the beginning to end of His ministry.

This is how I understand these things.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:41 pm

shorttribber wrote:The idea that the primary scriptures under examination in Romans 8 Apply Essentially and Primarily to Each Individual that are the Elect or Called, is in itself an error.


Hi ST,

I'm sorry, could you walk me through that passage to show how it is written with corporate application rather than individual application? And what exactly would be the difference?

If we say God conforms me to the image of Christ, just as He is you, or if we say that God is conforming both of us to the image of Christ, what changes?

I look at Romans 8:28, we have perceived that to the one's loving God . . . (ISA). That's how I read it. It's to each of us who are those people.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm

mark s wrote:I'm sorry, could you walk me through that passage to show how it is written with corporate application rather than individual application? And what exactly would be the difference?


My time is short and I type like a snail , that always make things difficult to fully express myself. I will try to do that in as few words I can though...and as soon as I am able.

What I recommend is that you may just read the whole of Romans 8 with the idea that ALL the Text is not speaking to EACH of us as Individuals. Parts of them (verses) are, yes, but not all of them. try to read it in such a way that, where the text allows, Apply those to the Chosen or Elect/Called of God "As a Whole", from Adam till the Physical Coming of Christ.

mark s wrote:If we say God conforms me to the image of Christ, just as He is you, or if we say that God is conforming both of us to the image of Christ, what changes?


Try to not read them as Me and you, Only, or "Both of Us", But Rather...."ALL of Us" and then see how things change in meaning.
mark s wrote:I look at Romans 8:28, we have perceived that to the one's loving God . . . (ISA). That's how I read it. It's to each of us who are those people.

I realize that, but that's what we had discussed before.....there is quite a bit that changes when we read them not ONLY or Exclusively as pertaining to Individuals, but to ALL of Us "As a Whole Body". God has Goals for Us as a "Whole" that are not meant for us as "Individuals".

We Only play a very minuscule role as individuals when we weigh our Lives against the WHOLE History of God's Elect.
Think of it that way....the Predeterminations of God Pertain to the "Whole" (The Finished product of the Potter), not the Individual Parts of the Whole.
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:37 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm sorry, could you walk me through that passage to show how it is written with corporate application rather than individual application? And what exactly would be the difference?


My time is short and I type like a snail , that always make things difficult to fully express myself. I will try to do that in as few words I can though...and as soon as I am able.

What I recommend is that you may just read the whole of Romans 8 with the idea that ALL the Text is not speaking to EACH of us as Individuals. Parts of them (verses) are, yes, but not all of them. try to read it in such a way that, where the text allows, Apply those to the Chosen or Elect/Called of God "As a Whole", from Adam till the Physical Coming of Christ.


Hi ST,

Is it that you are suggesting that some part of this chapter does not actually apply to me as an individual? What part(s)? Please specify. But let's stick to the part in question, Romans 8:28-29. What part of this passage does not apply to me as an individual, which part does, and where in the text do we see the distinction made?

Thank you!

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:48 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm sorry, could you walk me through that passage to show how it is written with corporate application rather than individual application? And what exactly would be the difference?


My time is short and I type like a snail , that always make things difficult to fully express myself. I will try to do that in as few words I can though...and as soon as I am able.

What I recommend is that you may just read the whole of Romans 8 with the idea that ALL the Text is not speaking to EACH of us as Individuals. Parts of them (verses) are, yes, but not all of them. try to read it in such a way that, where the text allows, Apply those to the Chosen or Elect/Called of God "As a Whole", from Adam till the Physical Coming of Christ.


Hi ST,

Is it that you are suggesting that some part of this chapter does not actually apply to me as an individual? What part(s)? Please specify. But let's stick to the part in question, Romans 8:28-29. What part of this passage does not apply to me as an individual, which part does, and where in the text do we see the distinction made?

Thank you!

Much love!

Mark


In Part, or in a Sense, yes.
I believe that individually, our personal decisions are not Completely Overridden by our God. We have Free Will. I believe that God so well knows what our Individual free will decisions will ALWAYS be, that He is Able to Apply our lives Perfectly to FIT INTO the "WHOLE Body" that he has Predetermined to be Perfected into the Fullness of the Stature (The Image) of Christ.

Meaning, God does not, predetermine who does or who does not Obtain Eternal Life......He Just Knows in advance Who Will and Who Will Not after giving all A Free Will Choice of their own.

He Knows How to Use Our Free will choices to Accomplish His Ultimate Goal of proving (Make Manifest )to the World that He is Able to Have Perfected Sons of God On this Earth....Before Christ Returns.

How long before Christ returns? I have been not able to know yet, 24 hours? A week? A month? A Year? I don't know, I just believe that Eph 4 does tell us that it will definitely occur. :banana: before the Return of Christ physically.
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:53 pm

shorttribber wrote:We Only play a very minuscule role as individuals when we weigh our Lives against the WHOLE History of God's Elect.
Think of it that way....the Predeterminations of God Pertain to the "Whole" (The Finished product of the Potter), not the Individual Parts of the Whole.


Hi ST,

I've given some thought towards what you are saying, but when I come to the bottom of it, I simply fail to see how God's plans for the Church corporate impact what this passage says to me personally. This is how God works everything to my good. Because He predestined it all, knowing that I would receive His Son. And that since God does this with all of us individually, it will be done corporately as a matter of course.

Now. I've quoted this part above. Yes. I am a tiny part of the entire history of the redeemed. But as one who loves God, I believe He is working everything for my good. This is the statement given. And then if given the foundation. This is how it happens. The ones He knew ahead time, He placed limits in their lives ahead of time.

I'm am one of those. And He called me, and He justified me, and He glorified me. Yes, He has glorified me. All of us who believe. Let's talk about that! :grin:

I am a tiny part of the entirety of the believers. But God is an overwhelmingly huge part of my life.

He is in control of everything - - - everything - - - start to finish. How else could He say that all things are working for my good? Because if there is something not under His control, that could be the thing that hurts me.

So He must be in control of everything in my life. Personally, I believe it. Start to finish. There's another deep and difficult subject. I came from a pretty rough childhood, to say the least. But unless it's start to finish, again, the thing not in control could be the one that hurts me, but God promises that everything is working for my good.

He tells me to cast all my anxieties on Him, because He cares for me! But it's empty unless He, again, controls everything. Personally. In my life. Start to finish.

And I would have to say that all of these great and precious promises which are guaranteed to remove me from the corruption of the world, and to cause me to share in His divine nature, all of these amazing and wonderful promises, of life and liberty and love and peace in my life today, now, require: He is in control, as previously defined.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:13 pm

mark s wrote:I've given some thought towards what you are saying, but when I come to the bottom of it, I simply fail to see how God's plans for the Church corporate impact what this passage says to me personally. This is how God works everything to my good. Because He predestined it all, knowing that I would receive His Son. And that since God does this with all of us individually, it will be done corporately as a matter of course.

Regarding God's personal interaction, yes...that's why I said this...
shorttribber wrote: I believe that God so well knows what our Individual free will decisions will ALWAYS be, that He is Able to Apply our lives Perfectly to FIT INTO the "WHOLE Body" that he has Predetermined to be Perfected into the Fullness of the Stature (The Image) of Christ.

Yes, it will be done corporately in the course of time. it's the predetermination of Eternal Life that Makes the Matter Different when we apply the predestination aspects of Conformity to (Image of) Christ or Predestination to obtain Eternal Life...and that is the difference.
Individually Predestination is not to Obtain eternal Life.....we have an Individual Choice.
We ARE Individually a PART of the Predestination of the Conformity to the Image of Christ though...ALL Believers ARE.

You said something similar yourself. That Predestination to the Conformity of Christ and the Salvation of the Soul are Not exactly the Same Thing.

Unless I misunderstood your meaning. I don't think I did.

mark s wrote:Now. I've quoted this part above. Yes. I am a tiny part of the entire history of the redeemed. But as one who loves God, I believe He is working everything for my good. This is the statement given. And then if given the foundation. This is how it happens. The ones He knew ahead time, He placed limits in their lives ahead of time.

I agree, and why I said this....
shorttribber wrote:He Knows How to Use Our Free will choices to Accomplish His Ultimate Goal of proving (Make Manifest )to the World that He is Able to Have Perfected Sons of God On this Earth....Before Christ Returns.

mark s wrote:He is in control of everything - - - everything - - - start to finish. How else could He say that all things are working for my good? Because if there is something not under His control, that could be the thing that hurts me.

My quote above this, answers this also
mark s wrote:I'm am one of those. And He called me, and He justified me, and He glorified me. Yes, He has glorified me. All of us who believe. Let's talk about that!

That is a complicated one to cover
mark s wrote:I am a tiny part of the entirety of the believers. But God is an overwhelmingly huge part of my life.He is in control of everything - - - everything - - - start to finish. How else could He say that all things are working for my good? Because if there is something not under His control, that could be the thing that hurts me.

Again, I covered this above.
mark s wrote:So He must be in control of everything in my life. Personally, I believe it. Start to finish. There's another deep and difficult subject. I came from a pretty rough childhood, to say the least. But unless it's start to finish, again, the thing not in control could be the one that hurts me, but God promises that everything is working for my good.

Again, I must answer and remind you with these words....
shorttribber wrote:He Knows How to Use Our Free will choices to Accomplish His Ultimate Goal of proving (Make Manifest )to the World that He is Able to Have Perfected Sons of God On this Earth....Before Christ Returns.

mark s wrote:And I would have to say that all of these great and precious promises which are guaranteed to remove me from the corruption of the world, and to cause me to share in His divine nature, all of these amazing and wonderful promises, of life and liberty and love and peace in my life today, now, require: He is in control, as previously defined.


I agree
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:18 pm

I've just realized, you've switched from talking about predestination to predetermination. Those aren't quite the same things.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:27 pm

mark s wrote:I've just realized, you've switched from talking about predestination to predetermination. Those aren't quite the same things.

It may make a difference in this conversation I suppose....but a predetermination by God that "The Creature" arrive at a Pre Determined Destination is very much a matter of God's Foreknowledge either way.

I was going to answer your last post, but it was replaced with this one....how did you do that?.....Or did you predetermine my response, and make this post instead? :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:37 pm

mark s wrote:I've just realized, you've switched from talking about predestination to predetermination. Those aren't quite the same things.

And I would say this also...
shorttribber wrote:The position that I would hope to introduce is that these scriptures Apply to the Foreknowledge of God regarding the Conformity to the "Image of His Son", For the Body of Christ as a "Whole" of the "Sons of God".In other words, this (Romans 8 {upon predestination}) does not speak at all as pertaining to Each Individual Person, and their inability to Choose for themselves wherether or not they shall be Ultimately Saved or obtain eternal life.


The Destination is the Goal. The Predestination is the Predetermined Goal. And the "Goal" in the text is the Conformity to the Image/Stature/Perfection of Christ. Eternal Life Itself, is not Mentioned AS THE "Goal".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:41 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Yes, it will be done corporately in the course of time. it's the predetermination of Eternal Life that Makes the Matter Different when we apply the predestination aspects of Conformity to (Image of) Christ or Predestination to obtain Eternal Life...and that is the difference.
Individually Predestination is not to Obtain eternal Life.....we have an Individual Choice.
We ARE Individually a PART of the Predestination of the Conformity to the Image of Christ though...ALL Believers ARE.


I've got to say, you lose me in this part. I don't really understand what you are saying here. But just the same, I think we think the same on the key point, salvation is one thing, conformance to Christ is a different thing, and predestination is to the second thing.

mark s wrote:Now. I've quoted this part above. Yes. I am a tiny part of the entire history of the redeemed. But as one who loves God, I believe He is working everything for my good. This is the statement given. And then if given the foundation. This is how it happens. The ones He knew ahead time, He placed limits in their lives ahead of time.


I agree, and why I said this....
shorttribber wrote:He Knows How to Use Our Free will choices to Accomplish His Ultimate Goal of proving (Make Manifest )to the World that He is Able to Have Perfected Sons of God On this Earth....Before Christ Returns.


Colossians 3 says that we will be revealed when - - - at that time - - - when Jesus is revealed. 1 John 3 says that it does not yet appear what we shall be, but when we see Him . . . This passage also talks about the world not recognizing us yet either.

Based on these passages, I think I must disagree.
mark s wrote:He is in control of everything - - - everything - - - start to finish. How else could He say that all things are working for my good? Because if there is something not under His control, that could be the thing that hurts me.

My quote above this, answers this also
mark s wrote:I am one of those. And He called me, and He justified me, and He glorified me. Yes, He has glorified me. All of us who believe. Let's talk about that!

That is a complicated one to cover


To me, not complicated at all! In fact, It's as straightforward as, well, the text itself reads.

We should talk about what glorified actually means. I don't think it's just to be shiny!

Hint: The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

Second Hint: We are created patterned after God in righteousness and true holiness.

mark s wrote:I am a tiny part of the entirety of the believers. But God is an overwhelmingly huge part of my life.He is in control of everything - - - everything - - - start to finish. How else could He say that all things are working for my good? Because if there is something not under His control, that could be the thing that hurts me.

Again, I covered this above.


Maybe that was in the part that was hard for me to understand.

Does this mean you agree?
mark s wrote:So He must be in control of everything in my life. Personally, I believe it. Start to finish. There's another deep and difficult subject. I came from a pretty rough childhood, to say the least. But unless it's start to finish, again, the thing not in control could be the one that hurts me, but God promises that everything is working for my good.

Again, I must answer and remind you with these words....
shorttribber wrote:He Knows How to Use Our Free will choices to Accomplish His Ultimate Goal of proving (Make Manifest )to the World that He is Able to Have Perfected Sons of God On this Earth....Before Christ Returns.



But in this exchange, you've side-stepped my point, about the individual, and are simply responding to the corporate. It's as if you are wanting to replace individual predestination to the conformity of Christ with your Eph. 4 concept, but I'm just missing where this is responsive.
mark s wrote:And I would have to say that all of these great and precious promises which are guaranteed to remove me from the corruption of the world, and to cause me to share in His divine nature, all of these amazing and wonderful promises, of life and liberty and love and peace in my life today, now, require: He is in control, as previously defined.


I agree


But then, at the end of the day, it still feels like we're on the same page on this.

:thinking:

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:46 pm

shorttribber wrote:
I was going to answer your last post, but it was replaced with this one....how did you do that?.....Or did you predetermine my response, and make this post instead? :mrgreen:


No . . . for perhaps the first time since I've been a member of this forum, I actually did want to reconsider a post in light of one just made. You had answered my thought already.

All for the best!

:mrgreen:
mark s wrote:I've just realized, you've switched from talking about predestination to predetermination. Those aren't quite the same things.

It may make a difference in this conversation I suppose....but a predetermination by God that "The Creature" arrive at a Pre Determined Destination is very much a matter of God's Foreknowledge either way.


OK.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:53 pm

mark s wrote:But then, at the end of the day, it still feels like we're on the same page on this.

Almost :grin:

I'll answer some of the other things you've posted above....gotta run for now...I think my answers to the things mentioned in your above post might shine a new light on the word "Glorified".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:02 pm

I'm going to start a Glorified thread, to spin off that topic.

:grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:10 pm

mark s wrote:I'm going to start a Glorified thread, to spin off that topic.

:grin:

K, but no spinning any of my comments, and I will only spin your's a little. :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:33 pm

Mr Baldy,

You have provided scriptures that show both predestination and freedom of choice are true.

If they are both true, then they must not be mutually exclusive.
If they are not mutually exclusive, then we each must be both predestined and free to choose.

The idea that anything is either predestined or chosen freely is utterly wrong.

Notice the "Either/Or" combination above.
Do not misinterpret this as nothing is predestined or nothing is freely chosen.

For those of you who want to post scripture proving predestination, I am in agreement with you.
For those of you who want to post scripture proving freedom of choice, I am in agreement with you.
There is no conflict between predestination and freedom-to-choose existing and happening at the same time for any given event.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:28 pm

Abiding wrote
If Adam's sin was predestined by God....then God is to blame for Adam's sin.


Romans 9:18-21
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?


May people do not think God predestined Adam to sin.
Their reasoning is: God is just, therefore He would not hold someone accountable for what He predestined them to do.
This is the same reasoning that leads to this question: "Why does He still find fault? For who resists his will?"

Many people think God would be unjust to hold people accountable for what they were predestined.
God is just. And He holds people accountable for what they were predestined to do.

If you think this cannot be true, then you need to change your definition of Just.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:43 pm

keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote
If Adam's sin was predestined by God....then God is to blame for Adam's sin.


Romans 9:18-21
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?


May people do not think God predestined Adam to sin.
Their reasoning is: God is just, therefore He would not hold someone accountable for what He predestined them to do.
This is the same reasoning that leads to this question: "Why does He still find fault? For who resists his will?"

Many people think God would be unjust to hold people accountable for what they were predestined.
God is just. And He holds people accountable for what they were predestined to do.

If you think this cannot be true, then you need to change your definition of Just.

Keith


Personally I think a very different Idea need change.

There is the matter of hardening, and there is also a matter of criteria behind God's choice to harden someone's heart.

Some would say He simple chooses based on His Own unrevealed basis, we don't know why, He just does.

I would say that He hardens the hearts of those He has finished with, Like Pharaoh. God knew the end from the beginning, so He knew Pharaoh's choices. But it was only after a number of rejections, and Pharaoh hardening his own heart that God hardened his heart.

God sustained Pharaoh through the the full number of the plagues so that He could show something to the world, but that thing He wanted to show as His power, not an inexplicable casting away of people.

But the Bible is clear to me in one respect. We are not to lay the responsibility for sin at God's feet. It never ever belongs there.

God doesn't want sin. That's why He came and died for us. To get rid of sin. Because He doesn't want it.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:44 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,You have provided scriptures that show both predestination and freedom of choice are true.


Thanks Keith - You and I are on the same page with this line of thinking. :mrgreen:

keithareilly wrote:If they are both true, then they must not be mutually exclusive. If they are not mutually exclusive, then we each must be both predestined and free to choose.


I'm not sure that I totally agree with this. this will require some more examination on my part.

keithareilly wrote:For those of you who want to post scripture proving predestination, I am in agreement with you. For those of you who want to post scripture proving freedom of choice, I am in agreement with you.


This we most certainly agree upon!

Point I've been attempting to make is that when it comes to those who will inherit Eternal Life - the examples of Freedom of Choice and those who have been Chosen, or in other words were Predestined - is that there are clearly those whom God has Sovereignly Chose - and there are those whom He has Called and they have a "choice" to either accept or reject Him.

More on this later.....
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Mark,

I understand. Most people think as you do.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:02 pm

Mr. Baldy,

Yes.

I am one of the chosen. Plucked out and dragged kicking and screaming for I was hostile to God.

It is still hard for me to choose God each day.
Not that I want anything else, I was just so far gone that a lot of healing was/is required.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:08 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Point I've been attempting to make is that when it comes to those who will inherit Eternal Life - the examples of Freedom of Choice and those who have been Chosen, or in other words were Predestined - is that there are clearly those whom God has Sovereignly Chose - and there are those whom He has Called and they have a "choice" to either accept or reject Him.


If God predestines some to the exclusion of others, then the scriptures that attest to His impartiality are not true.

Act_10:34  Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

Rom_2:11  For there is no partiality with God.

Gal_2:6  But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

Eph_6:9  And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Col_3:25  For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:18 pm

Hi Mark,

I just want to respond to some of your responses to me. I got home late today, so I will respond to them accordingly as time permits.

mark s wrote:This part I'm especially interested in hearing from you regarding. What exactly does it mean to you , these words, "those whom He Foreknew". What exactly what it that God knew ahead of time?


Let me say that there have been many books written on the "Foreknowledge of God" and His plan of Salvation before the foundation of the universe. In my understanding concerning the "Foreknowledge of God" - which is very limited I might add; is that this same God had a plan concerning His Entire Creation before He even created it. An example is when He tells the Prophet Jeremiah that before he was even formed in the womb he was known by God. (Jeremiah 1:5).

Therefore the answer to your question is that those whom He Foreknew relates to His Eternal Plan, and those whom He Foreknew WILL inherit Eternal Life. It is because He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified. Scripture is very clear about this. (Romans 8:29-30)

Mr Baldy wrote:You will find NO clear example where names are blotted out of the Book of Life (if indeed you are referring to it). Is it mentioned - YES absolutely, but this alone does not necessarily imply that there are those who's name are blotted out. This is an assumption on your part.


You responded:

mark s wrote:In saying this is an assumption on my part . . . are you so certain as all that? Of course, you say, no clear example, what constitutes clear? And to whom?


Yes it is indeed an assumption on your part. First you never clarified whether or not you are referring to the Book of Life OR the Book of the Living. Again - you will find no evidence in Scripture that anyone's name has EVER been blotted from the Book of Life - which is contains the names of ALL who will inherit Eternal Life. Hence the Name of the Book.

If someone's name is blotted from the Book of the Living - then that should be self-explanatory. It means they are DEAD.

mark s wrote:Psalm 69:28 (NKJV)Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. These talk about people being blotted from God's book. I've just noticed that Young's simply puts this as, "they are blotted out".


Here you prove my point.











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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:35 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:There are names of those who are very clearly chosen by God. Here are a few:
1) Moses
2) Paul
3) Joseph
4) Jeremiah
5) The Apostles

And there are many more.....question becomes - Did they actually have a Choice to inherit Eternal Life?


Just for clarification on my aforementioned comments........

I believe that there are very clearly those who have been Sovereignly Chosen by God. I don't believe that they actually had a CHOICE. My reasoning is that in God's Foreknowledge He KNEW those individuals before they were created - and through His own Sovereign Wisdom He made a decision to grant those whom He specifically chose Eternal Life.
Some who are here, reading this message may have been Chosen. Others have heard the Word of God and He has sent an open invitation to them to come to Him. They have a "choice" to either accept or reject Him - as they have the power to "harden their hearts" - (Hebrews 3:15).

However, I want to be very, very clear - Absolutely NO man, woman, or child can boast that they had ANYTHING to do with their Salvation . Because it is God whom actually does the calling in the first place. It is the Holy Spirit that seals a believer until the day of redemption.

Scripture states that "Many are Called - but few are Chosen". (Matthew 22:14)

So in the aforementioned example of the names of the men I gave in Scripture who were very Clearly Chosen - I don't believe for one minute that they had a CHOICE to reject the wooing of the Holy Spirit when God Sovereignly chose each of them. It was in God's Plan.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:45 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:If God predestines some to the exclusion of others, then the scriptures that attest to His impartiality are not true.


Abiding - I believe that you may be missing something here - and it's called God's Sovereignty.

Here is something for you to consider:

Romans 9:15-28 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19) You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23) And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25) As He says also in Hosea,


“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”

26)
“And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27) Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.”
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Abiding wrote,
If God predestines some to the exclusion of others, then the scriptures that attest to His impartiality are not true.


How can one show partiality to someone who does not exist?
Not possible.

Predestination is evidence of impartiality not partiality.

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