Eternal Life

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:12 am

keithareilly wrote:It is an assumption Adam was negligent in his tending of the garden. If you have a verse that states Satan was not to be in the Garden of Eden and that it was Adam's responsibility to keep him out, please post that verse. If you cannot provide such a verse, then your assumption is not verifiable as either TRUE or FALSE; Therefore, any conclusion based upon that assumption also cannot be verified as true or false. I prefer not to build upon unverifiable assumptions. Adam is himself, alone, responsible for SIN entering this world. He is not responsible for Eve being deceived by Satan. I understand you, as a feminist, would like it to be his fault she was deceived; but, there is no evidence of such a thing. Adam sinned, not Eve. Adam has all the blame for which he is responsible. It is not Eve's fault in anyway. Adam disobeyed by choice, not Eve.

Your assumption Adam would have remained in a 'not good' spiritual state should he have eaten of the tree of life after eating the forbidden fruit is simply another assumption. If you have a verse that says this assumption is true, please provide that verse. Furthermore, the 'not good' spiritual state you quoted was resolved by God by creating people such as yourself. I am the first to admit, a woman can make my life a lot happier; women are a wonderful. So wonderful, Adam chose to obey a woman over God.


Keith, before I respond to several of your comments in the previous post, I'm wondering how it is that you can justify or reject scriptural interpretations using or failing to use "logic and reason" but call my logical and reasonable interpretations "assumptions" and discard them as such.

You said:
The idea, Adam must eat of the tree of life to remain living prior to sinning, fails the test of reason.
Because Death did not enter this world until after Adam sinned,
It is not reasonable to think Adam would could experience death prior to sinning.
Death is a consequence of sin. Sin brings forth Death. No Sin, No Death. We all know that. Hence Christ.
The logical and reasonable conclusion is: if sin was not present in this world, Adam would not have died.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:35 am

Abiding wrote
Keith, before I respond to several of your comments in the previous post, I'm wondering how it is that you can justify or reject scriptural interpretations using or failing to use "logic and reason" but call my logical and reasonable interpretations "assumptions" and discard them as such.

You said:
The idea, Adam must eat of the tree of life to remain living prior to sinning, fails the test of reason.
Because Death did not enter this world until after Adam sinned,
It is not reasonable to think Adam would could experience death prior to sinning.
Death is a consequence of sin. Sin brings forth Death. No Sin, No Death. We all know that. Hence Christ.
The logical and reasonable conclusion is: if sin was not present in this world, Adam would not have died.


I am going to assume you disagree with this reasoning.
Here are the scripture supporting this.

James 1:15
15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.


Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Temptation, sin, and death have a relationship.
Temptation, when concieved gives birth to sin. Sin, when accomplished, brings forth death.

James1:15 and Romans5:12 are talking about Adam and his sin. Adam sinned.
Through Adam, sin entered this world, through Adam's sin, death entered this world.
Prior to Adam's sin Death did not exist in this world.
This truth is spelled out very clearly in Romans 5:12.

To believe Adam could experience death in a world where death was not present is not logical.
Consequently, without the presence of death in the world, Adam's life expectancy was infinite.

Adam was prevented from eating of the tree of life only after he sinned.
We do not know if he ate of the tree of life before he sinned. Perhaps he did, perhaps he did not. It matters not.

In a world where death was not present, there exists no logical reason to conclude Adam must have eaten of the tree of life to prevent Adam from experiencing death. Only after Adam sinned was it necessary for him to eat of the tree of life to prevent Adam from experiencing death. For only after he sinned was death present and available to be experienced by Adam; whereas prior to his sin he could not experience death because death not available to be experienced; therefore, regardless of whether or not Adam ate of the tree of life prior to sinning, Adam's life expectancy was unlimited.

In a world where death was not present, it is a mistake to conclude that one must eat of the tree of life to prevent one from experiencing death.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:08 am

Adam was negligent in his tending of the garden. If you have a verse that states Satan was not to be in the Garden of Eden and that it was Adam's responsibility to keep him out, please post that verse.


Gen 2:15  Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

H8104
Shamar

A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).

E.W. Bullinger Commentary

keep = keep safe, preserve. Same Hebrew as Gen. 3:24

Gen 3:24  So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

I think it's reasonable and logical that Adam was not only to "dress; i.e. cultivate" but to "keep; i.e. guard" it. Albert Barnes and Keil & Delitzsch Commentaries agree with me.... :mrgreen:

Albert Barnes

This “dressing” was needed even in the garden. The “keeping” of it may refer to the guarding of it by enclosure from the depredations of the cattle, the wild beasts, or even the smaller animals.


Keil & Delitzsch Commentary

Cultivation therefore preserved (שׁמר to keep) the divine plantation, not merely from injury on the part of any evil power, either penetrating into, or already existing in the creation, but also from running wild through natural degeneracy.


Given these points, I think it's entirely reasonable and logical to conclude that Adam was negligent in performing his duties and hence the "good" becomes in this scenario "not good" for him to be alone (H905 = separated/separation). He needed help.

We know Adam didn't die "in that day" since he lived 930 yrs. after being expelled from the garden. So his death could have been physical and spiritual both as the direct result of life outside of the garden which was designed specifically for them by God where they enjoyed fellowship with Him.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:28 am

In a world where death was not present, it is a mistake to conclude that one must eat of the tree of life to prevent one from experiencing death.


May I ask what you think the purpose of the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden was if not for sustaining life :dunno: ?
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:53 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
In a world where death was not present, it is a mistake to conclude that one must eat of the tree of life to prevent one from experiencing death.


May I ask what you think the purpose of the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden was if not for sustaining life :dunno: ?


I can only conclude God wanted it there for his own purposes.
Adam and Eve where to tend God's garden. It was not their garden.
Therefore, I can only conclude it was there for God's purposes.
To say Adam and Eve must have eaten of the tree to stay alive is an assumption that cannot be validated.
Adam and Eve were told they "may" eat of any fruit (except the forbidden one), including the tree of life.
They were not told they "must" eat of the tree of life to survive.
Eating from the tree of life was optional prior to Adam's sin.
We have no evidence it was necessary for them to eat of it to stay alive.
Eating of the tree being an option, not a necessity, is consistent with living for ever because death was not in the world.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:04 am

keithareilly wrote:I am going to assume you disagree with this reasoning.
Here are the scripture supporting this.

James 1:15
15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth
death.

Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and [/color[[color=#FF0000]death through sin, and so [/color[[color=#FF0000]death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Temptation, sin, and death have a relationship.
Temptation, when conceived gives birth to sin. Sin, when accomplished, brings forth death.

James1:15 and Romans5:12 are talking about Adam and his sin. Adam sinned.
Through Adam, sin entered this world, through Adam's sin, death entered this world.
Prior to Adam's sin Death did not exist in this world.
This truth is spelled out very clearly in Romans 5:12.

To believe Adam could experience death in a world where death was not present is not logical.
Consequently, without the presence of death in the world, Adam's life expectancy was infinite.



Keith, your logic is based on the English translation of the Greek words used in the respective passages you have quoted.

Romans 5:12 is referring to the second death, and not to a physical death as you are arguing.

James 1 15 has used the Greek word for a physical death where the intent was to indicate the second death.

Your logic in your argument is flawed.

Reference to the Second Death can be found sprinkled throughout the Bible starting in Genesis 2:17.

God told Adam that he would die the second death if he ate from the tree of knowledge at the time of the GWT Judgement. As such Adam died a physical dead which was the planned all along.

We are told in Genesis 6:1-4 that God had made man to live for an extended period of time but after His Sabbath day when he visited the earth he decided to limit the length of a man's life to only 120 years.

Genesis 6:1-4: - 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
NKJV


Or

Genesis 6:1-4 : - 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
ESV


We can chart the decline of the life of the patrairch from the time of Shem until the Exodus from Egypt where the nominal length of a man's life was around 120 years. God had a time set aside for how long a man would live at the time of creastion, but the Bible does not record what that length of time would be.

Kieth your logic is not working for you at all in this particular discussion.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:10 am

Abiding,

I get Adam was to tend the Garden.

What I don't get is why you think the garden needed to be protected from Satan.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:18 am

Jay,

Your arguments are about the life span of mortal men.
Men after Adam sinned, after Death was in the world.

I am talking about before Death entered the world.

Even so.
Your arguments support that Adam and Eve were not required to eat of the tree of life to keep from experiencing death.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:48 am

keithareilly wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:
In a world where death was not present, it is a mistake to conclude that one must eat of the tree of life to prevent one from experiencing death.


May I ask what you think the purpose of the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden was if not for sustaining life :dunno: ?


I can only conclude God wanted it there for his own purposes.

Keith, God's words support the tree's purpose was sustaining life.

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— 

They also contain the concern that since the man had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he might also do so from the tree of life.

Gen 3:24  So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. 

That word "guard" is the same used of Adam's responsibility to guard the garden. So whether or not we are certain that the tree's purpose was eternal life, the fact remains God confirmed Adam's physical death when He told him he would return to dust.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:25 am

keithareilly wrote:What I don't get is why you think the garden needed to be protected from Satan.


Who/what else would necessitate guarding? The serpent is called throughout scripture as the deceiver, the accuser, the devil, Satan, the tempter, the liar, and the father of lies.

But scripture tells us of the formation of the animals in the garden:
Gen 2:19  Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 

Many times in scripture we see how the devil inhabits people, animals/pigs, influences them, deceives them, and causes physical pain and trauma. This particular serpent apparently was inhabited by Satan as it could speak and was capable of tricking Eve by making her doubt the inevitable of death by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I think the way he achieved this deception was by pointing to the tree of life which stood in the center of the garden alongside the forbidden tree. She "surely would not die" as the tree of life was provided life.

Back to the job of guarding....would God have given the responsibility of guarding had there been no need for it? But when God questioned Eve as to what she had done, she confessed she had been deceived and named the culprit....the serpent! She correctly exposed the origin of evil in the garden whereas Adam blamed both God and Eve.

As a result of this inquiry by God, only the serpent and the ground were cursed.

Eternal life would come by the Messiah and Satan continued to stop His birth throughout scripture through the his craftiness; i.e. Herod's order to kill all the baby boys.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:47 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
keithareilly wrote:What I don't get is why you think the garden needed to be protected from Satan.


Who/what else would necessitate guarding? The serpent is called throughout scripture as the deceiver, the accuser, the devil, Satan, the tempter, the liar, and the father of lies.

But scripture tells us of the formation of the animals in the garden:
Gen 2:19  Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 

Many times in scripture we see how the devil inhabits people, animals/pigs, influences them, deceives them, and causes physical pain and trauma. This particular serpent apparently was inhabited by Satan as it could speak and was capable of tricking Eve by making her doubt the inevitable of death by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I think the way he achieved this deception was by pointing to the tree of life which stood in the center of the garden alongside the forbidden tree. She "surely would not die" as the tree of life was provided life.

Back to the job of guarding....would God have given the responsibility of guarding had there been no need for it? But when God questioned Eve as to what she had done, she confessed she had been deceived and named the culprit....the serpent! She correctly exposed the origin of evil in the garden whereas Adam blamed both God and Eve.

As a result of this inquiry by God, only the serpent and the ground were cursed.

Eternal life would come by the Messiah and Satan continued to stop His birth throughout scripture through the his craftiness; i.e. Herod's order to kill all the baby boys.


I am not disagreeing with you about Satan's character. Satan is who he is.

Genesis 3:22-23
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

I do not think it is reasonable to conclude God expected a man who had ZERO knowledge concerning good and evil to protect the garden from evil. That is like tasking me to perform brain surgery. Just not reasonable.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:59 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

Your arguments are about the life span of mortal men.
Men after Adam sinned, after Death was in the world.

I am talking about before Death entered the world.

Even so.
Your arguments support that Adam and Eve were not required to eat of the tree of life to keep from experiencing death.

Keith


So Keith, from the silence of the Book of Genesis, are you suggesting that Adam was immortal and that only after he ate of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge was death introduced into the world and he became a mortal man.

The scriptures do not support that view, although the jewish understanding does but that does not make it right.

The following is from the Logos Bible software: -

Logos Bible Software: - Commentary on Genesis 2:17: -

17. The full implications of the warning, thou shalt surely die (AV, RV), will slowly unfold to the last pages of the New Testament. They are briefly discussed at 3:7; meanwhile it may be pointed out that these words do not necessarily imply that man was not naturally mortal. God ‘alone has immortality’ (1 Tim. 6:16, RSV), and the presence of the tree of life in the garden indicates that if man is to share the boon it must be an added gift. As R. Martin-Achard has put it: ‘Before the Fall, between Adam and death, which is part of his natural lot as an element in his human heritage, there stands (a) the Living God; His presence is sufficient to ward death off …’. The translation of Enoch, ‘that he should not see death’ (Heb. 11:5), perhaps illustrates what God had prepared for man. (b)

Notes
a: - Kidner, D. (1967). Genesis: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 1, pp. 69–70). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

b: - Kidner, D. (1967). Genesis: An Introduction and Commentary (Vol. 1, p. 70). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.


1 Timothy 6:11-16 The Good Confession

11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV


What I am saying is that Adam introduced the consequences of the Second Death to man and not man's physical death, which has been there since Adam was created.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:57 pm

keithareilly wrote:
I do not think it is reasonable to conclude God expected a man who had ZERO knowledge concerning good and evil to protect the garden from evil. That is like tasking me to perform brain surgery. Just not reasonable.


Having a free will and the ability to make choices is evidence of the knowledge of good and not good. Without the ability to discern good/better/best actions, one is lacking certain mental faculties. Adam's ability to choose names for the animals attests to his ability to make choices and decisions.

Only after eating of the tree were they aware of their nakedness. Previously we are told specifically they were not: " And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. Gen 2:25 But immediately after eating, we are told:

" Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" ...and hid themselves from the presence of God. Gen. 3:7-11. God even went so far as to ask them how they knew they were naked...who told you?

So eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not result in a "head" knowledge of right and wrong per se, but rather an awareness of the guilt and shame of sin. David expresses his guilt and shame following his awareness of his sinfulness; i.e. my soul is crushed; my soul weeps; I cried with all my heart, etc. (Psalm 119)
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:58 pm

Jay,

Genesis 3:22
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”


Genesis 3:22 says the fruit of tree of life provides eternal life.
God did not deny Adam Eternal life until after Adam sinned.

It is wrong to say I am speaking from silence when I have quoted scriptures backing up what I have said.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:18 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
keithareilly wrote:
I do not think it is reasonable to conclude God expected a man who had ZERO knowledge concerning good and evil to protect the garden from evil. That is like tasking me to perform brain surgery. Just not reasonable.


Having a free will and the ability to make choices is evidence of the knowledge of good and not good. Without the ability to discern good/better/best actions, one is lacking certain mental faculties. Adam's ability to choose names for the animals attests to his ability to make choices and decisions.

Only after eating of the tree were they aware of their nakedness. Previously we are told specifically they were not: " And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. Gen 2:25 But immediately after eating, we are told:

" Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" ...and hid themselves from the presence of God. Gen. 3:7-11. God even went so far as to ask them how they knew they were naked...who told you?

So eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not result in a "head" knowledge of right and wrong per se, but rather an awareness of the guilt and shame of sin. David expresses his guilt and shame following his awareness of his sinfulness; i.e. my soul is crushed; my soul weeps; I cried with all my heart, etc.


I think the key to understanding this is: "the eyes of both of them were opened".
They now could "see", or "comprehend" good and evil.
Notice it says both of them. Because Eve did not deliberately sin as Adam did, it cannot be from the process of deliberately sinning that the knowledge of good and evil was gained. Why, because if this were true, then Eve, who did not deliberately, sin should not have gained the knowledge of good and evil. Yet, she did gain it. I think this means it is reasonable to conclude the knowledge came from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not Adam's sin.

Matthew 10:16-18
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.17“But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; 18and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

We, now possessing the knowledge of good and evil, are to as shrewd as the serpent which deceived Eve.
Adam lacked this shrewdness ability because he lacked knowledge of good and evil.

I still do not think it is a reasonble conclusion to think Adam was capable of being shrewd enough to guard against Satan before comprehended good and evil. To think so is to think God would assign a private the role of defending against a general's strategies. Consequently, I think it is a bad reasoning to conclude it was Adams responsibility to guard the garden against Satan.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:35 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

Genesis 3:22
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”


Genesis 3:22 says the tree fruit of tree of life provides eternal life.
God did not deny Adam Eternal life until after Adam sinned.

It is wrong to say I am speaking from silence when I have quoted scriptures backing up what I have said.


Keith


Yes Keith, you are quoting the English translations to back up your point of view. But you have not provided proof that the English translation is a correct translation of the original texts. Sadly, our English translations reflect more of what the translators' theological understanding of scripture is, than what the original texts actually convey.

The second death is first mentioned in Genesis 2:17 but because of Jewish tradition, the reference to the Second Death in Genesis 2:17 has been lost and hidden in our English translations. Adam's sin brought the second death into play, and this is confirmed in Romans 5:12 which you quoted, but the tradition of scholarship even there has caused the second death to be hidden here as well.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:52 pm

Jay wrote,
Yes Keith, you are quoting the English translations to back up your point of view. But you have not provided proof that the English translation is a correct translation of the original texts.


I don't think anyone has ever provided any proof that was written in the original text is actually what God said.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:06 pm

Consequently, I think it is a bad reasoning to conclude it was Adams responsibility to guard the garden against Satan.


Who or what was Adam to guard then in your opinion? Keep in mind the same word translated "keep" is used in Gen. 3:24.

shâmar

A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed


We are not told of any dangerous animals since they were friendly enough to be brought to Adam to name. But there was one deceiver/tempter in existence who spoke through the mouth of a serpent.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:23 pm

Abiding wrote,

Who or what was Adam to guard then in your opinion? Keep in mind the same word translated "keep" is used in Gen. 3:24
.

Pretty much everything. If a garden is left untended the garden disappears.
Scripture says where the garden of Eden was located. It's not there anymore, is it?

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:52 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay wrote,
Yes Keith, you are quoting the English translations to back up your point of view. But you have not provided proof that the English translation is a correct translation of the original texts.


I don't think anyone has ever provided any proof that was written in the original text is actually what God said.

Keith


Very true, then we are all arguing out of our own ignorance and it becomes a meaningless discussion.

However, within the realms of the prophetic content, much of what was written in the original texts, has been confirmed in the later events played out that were prophesised in the scriptures.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:58 pm

Jay Ross wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Jay wrote,
Yes Keith, you are quoting the English translations to back up your point of view. But you have not provided proof that the English translation is a correct translation of the original texts.


I don't think anyone has ever provided any proof that was written in the original text is actually what God said.

Keith


Very true, then we are all arguing out of our own ignorance and it becomes a meaningless discussion.

However, within the realms of the prophetic content, much of what was written in the original texts, has been confirmed in the later events played out that were prophesised in the scriptures.

Shalom


Yep, Prophecy studies and seeing their fulflment has strengthened my faith.

By the way. The logic in your posts have improved a god bit.
I don't always agree; but, they are better.

Best wishes and I appreciate your thoughts.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:14 pm

keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote,

Who or what was Adam to guard then in your opinion? Keep in mind the same word translated "keep" is used in Gen. 3:24
.

Pretty much everything. If a garden is left untended the garden disappears.
Scripture says where the garden of Eden was located. It's not there anymore, is it?


Doesn't matter....Adam isn't either...he was fired. :mrgreen:

He was to do two things: cultivate and guard

Upon leaving the garden, he still had to cultivate or till the ground only now it will produce thorns and thistles because it was cursed and he will toil in sorrow.

Still the only logical enemy to guard against was the deceiver.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote,

Who or what was Adam to guard then in your opinion? Keep in mind the same word translated "keep" is used in Gen. 3:24
.

Pretty much everything. If a garden is left untended the garden disappears.
Scripture says where the garden of Eden was located. It's not there anymore, is it?


Doesn't matter....Adam isn't either...he was fired. :mrgreen:

He was to do two things: cultivate and guard

Upon leaving the garden, he still had to cultivate or till the ground only now it will produce thorns and thistles because it was cursed and he will toil in sorrow.

Still the only logical enemy to guard against was the deceiver.


Really, have you ever gardened?
Do you not put fences up to keep rabbits out?
How about deer eating the tops of your flowers?
What about voles and moles eating the roots?
How about grass growth shrinking the size of the garden.
How about weeds overtaking the plants.
What about trimming trees to provide more sunshine.
What about growing trees for plants that do not tolerate direct sunlight?

Do you dig ditches for drainage to keep the ground from holding too much water that drowns the plants?
Do you dig ditches to bring in water when there is not enough rain?

Do you put netting over your trees to keep the birds from eating the berries?


Really, gardening is a full time job contending with lots of things trying to take over the garden.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:31 pm

:eek:

That made me tired just reading it and I'm 100% certain I'll not take up gardening to any degree.

You gave me some food for thought (no pun intended) but the laborious efforts seem to be those Adam will encounter following his expulsion from the garden rather than an every day battle against critters and turf in the garden.

See here where the conditions God said would exist outside the beautiful, perfectly designed garden and they reflect a very different and more difficult type of gardening.....

Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';

    * Cursed is the ground because of you;

    * In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 

    * "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;

    * And you will eat the plants of the field; 

    * By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken;

    * For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." Gen 3:17-19

.... therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. Gen 3:23


And even these adverse circumstances would not last forever as we know that Abel was a keeper of flocks while Cain was a tiller of the ground. Then further on, we see instruments of bronze and iron while these were no doubt used by Tubal-Cain for battle, they signify the advances made in the field of agriculture as well. And finally in Gen. 5, we see Noah being one who will give rest from the toil of their hands because of the curse on the ground by the Lord.

And last but not least, we see God promising to never again curse the ground on account of man. (Gen. 8:21)

Scripture continues to record the gradual overcoming of the adverse, negative conditions Adam and Eve would encounter outside of the garden of Eden and the progression toward the coming of the promised Savior.

All of this is to say that while you make some excellent points about the difficulty involved in gardening, I do not see those conditions implied inside the garden, but definitely a possibility outside the garden since God Himself conveyed the difficulties they would encounter upon their expulsion.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:03 pm

Abiding,

A well tended garden is just that. A garden. If it not tended it goes away.
The larger and better planned the gardens can be maintained easier.

The fact that Eden is called a garden and required tending leads me to conclude it was in actuality: A Garden.
Gardens take a lot of maintenance or they just disapear.

The fact that God described what was outside the garden gives us a pretty good idea the garden was a cultivated oasis.
Notice also that Adam was taken from a place then put in the garden. Then after the fall he was sent back to the place from which he was taken.

So, while more work may have been required because of the curse, maintaining a garden was still alot of work prior to the curse.

Along with the work I previously mentioned, Adam probably also had to:
Prune the trees and vines to increase fruitfulness,
Locate animal dung and redistribute it.
Determine which species promoted each other and plant them together. (Not all species can live together due to their environmental protections. For example very little grows under walnut trees.)
Harvest the product when it was in ready.
Preserve seeds for next years plantings.
Determine what plants were producing fruit and which were not then remove those that were unfruitful.
Learn which animals ate the insects that consumed plants and promote their growth.
Since different insects like different plants, and different animals like different insects, this probably had to be done for each section of plantings.
Build walls/structures to protect against flooding of the 3 rivers.

When you think about all this. Remember one thing.
God placed Adam in the garden for the purpose of tending it.

Therefore, we know The Garden of Eden needed tending;
Therefore, we know for certain the Garden of Eden required work to keep it up.

In a well maintained and protected garden, gardening is an ever changing art.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jericho on Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:15 pm

keithareilly wrote:Really, have you ever gardened?
Do you not put fences up to keep rabbits out?
How about deer eating the tops of your flowers?
What about voles and moles eating the roots?
How about grass growth shrinking the size of the garden.
How about weeds overtaking the plants.
What about trimming trees to provide more sunshine.
What about growing trees for plants that do not tolerate direct sunlight?

Do you dig ditches for drainage to keep the ground from holding too much water that drowns the plants?
Do you dig ditches to bring in water when there is not enough rain?

Do you put netting over your trees to keep the birds from eating the berries?


Really, gardening is a full time job contending with lots of things trying to take over the garden.


But that is all post-fall isn't it? I beleive God intended for man to be productive, but not to work by the sweat of his brow. The toil part came after the fall. Adam may have tended to the garden in some capcity, but I doubt it was aderous or tedious work. It was paradise after all. Also, it would appear that it doesn't rain until Gensis 7, so there was no need for digging ditches. The pre-flood earth appears to have been superior to ours as evidenced by their long life spans, and garden before the fall was even better than that.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:40 pm

Jericho wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Really, have you ever gardened?
Do you not put fences up to keep rabbits out?
How about deer eating the tops of your flowers?
What about voles and moles eating the roots?
How about grass growth shrinking the size of the garden.
How about weeds overtaking the plants.
What about trimming trees to provide more sunshine.
What about growing trees for plants that do not tolerate direct sunlight?

Do you dig ditches for drainage to keep the ground from holding too much water that drowns the plants?
Do you dig ditches to bring in water when there is not enough rain?

Do you put netting over your trees to keep the birds from eating the berries?


Really, gardening is a full time job contending with lots of things trying to take over the garden.


But that is all post-fall isn't it? I beleive God intended for man to be productive, but not to work by the sweat of his brow. The toil part came after the fall. Adam may have tended to the garden in some capcity, but I doubt it was aderous or tedious work. It was paradise after all. Also, it would appear that it doesn't rain until Gensis 7, so there was no need for digging ditches. The pre-flood earth appears to have been superior to ours as evidenced by their long life spans, and garden before the fall was even better than that.


Hi Jericho.

Nope that was not post fall.
And actually the lack of rain is what would required ditches to bring water in from the rivers to the garden.
And Yes, the old earth was better.
Numbers 13:23
Then they came to the valley of Eshcol and from there cut down a branch with a single cluster of grapes; and they carried it on a pole between two men, with some of the pomegranates and the figs.

Was not even the garden of Eden.

Genesis 2:15
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

Adam was placed in the garden to "tend it and keep it".
The mistake people make is to think the garden of Eden was some place that did not need any upkeep.
Verse 15 shows us that is just not so. Adam was placed in the garden because it needed upkeep.

Did it require all the work the land outside the garden needed? No.
The garden existed, it was already established, it needed maintenance, not establishment.
Establishing a garden takes much, much, more work.

When establishing garden, you need to determine what you will be planting and change the soil to suit the plant.
The soil needs to sifted to remove unwanted seeds.
Boundaries needs to be build.
The Land needs to be landscaped.
The soil needs to be tested and the right nutrients need to be added to the soil using the right fertilizers.
The land under the top soil needs to be of the right mixture to allow water to be retained in the ground at a level available to the plants. (Not too high or the plant will drown, not too low or their won't be any water for the plant.)
Once established a garden is conditioned to prosper.

It is very likely Adam learned none of these things because he was only tending a garden not building one.
Adam toiled because the ground was cursed instead of conditioned as a garden is conditioned.
Soil that is conditioned to grow thorns is going to grow thorns.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:26 pm

Here are some more interesting things about gardening.

If you don't harvest your fruit and nuts from your trees in a timely manner, the squirrels will harvest them and you wont get but a few. I have seen this happen myself.

When your grapes are ripe, and especially when they start to ferment on the vine, birds will consume every one they can find. Learned this from a wine tour at a vineyards.

If you don't collect seeds from the plants you let go to seed in a timely manner, the birds will get them and you wont have any seeds for next year.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:54 am

Abiding,

My point here is as I said.

Gardening is plenty of work and there are lots of enemies to a garden that are no more shrewd than a squirrel or a rabbit.


I really don't think it is logical to think Adam, who lacked knowledge of good and evil, was expected to be defend the garden against Satan. Defend against squirrels, rabbits, drought, weeds, birds, etc., Yes, but not Satan.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jericho on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am

keithareilly wrote:Abiding,

My point here is as I said.

Gardening is plenty of work and there are lots of enemies to a garden that are no more shrewd than a squirrel or a rabbit.


I really don't think it is logical to think Adam, who lacked knowledge of good and evil, was expected to be defend the garden against Satan. Defend against squirrels, rabbits, drought, weeds, birds, etc., Yes, but not Satan.

Keith


I'm sure there was more in the garden than just fruit trees and vegetable plants. And it was not like Adam was mass producing fruit to be sold at the market. He needed enough for himself, and later his wife. There is a lot we can speculate about this topic. For all we know plants grew larger than they did now becuase of their pristine environment, and produced larger fruit/vegetables. In any case I'm sure there was plenty to go around, even for the animals.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm

Jericho,

I agree. Much of it is speculation. But there was certainly work to be done else why bring Adam to tend it.

What I don't think is speculation is:
1) There was work to do in the garden.
2) Adam was not denied eternal life until after he sinned.
3) It is unreasonable to expect one without knowledge of evil (and good) to defend the garden against evil.
4) It is not reasonable to blame Adam for Satan's deception upon Eve.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:42 pm

Temptation, sin, and death have a relationship.
Temptation, when concieved gives birth to sin. Sin, when accomplished, brings forth death.

James1:15 and Romans5:12 are talking about Adam and his sin. Adam sinned.
Through Adam, sin entered this world, through Adam's sin, death entered this world.
Prior to Adam's sin Death did not exist in this world.
This truth is spelled out very clearly in Romans 5:12.

To believe Adam could experience death in a world where death was not present is not logical.
Consequently, without the presence of death in the world, Adam's life expectancy was infinite.

Adam was prevented from eating of the tree of life only after he sinned.
We do not know if he ate of the tree of life before he sinned. Perhaps he did, perhaps he did not. It matters not.

In a world where death was not present, there exists no logical reason to conclude Adam must have eaten of the tree of life to prevent Adam from experiencing death. Only after Adam sinned was it necessary for him to eat of the tree of life to prevent Adam from experiencing death. For only after he sinned was death present and available to be experienced by Adam; whereas prior to his sin he could not experience death because death not available to be experienced; therefore, regardless of whether or not Adam ate of the tree of life prior to sinning, Adam's life expectancy was unlimited.

In a world where death was not present, it is a mistake to conclude that one must eat of the tree of life to prevent one from experiencing death.


Just have to say Keith, that this is very well stated, thank you!

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby david on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:28 pm

It depends on who you ask. Is there a right answer?
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