Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

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Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:13 am

We believers often wrangle about words and phrases in scripture, but Jesus seemed to be more concern about the context of His quoting the OT.

Here's just one example:

And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."  And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.  And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." ]Luke 4:17-20  (CAPS -NASB)

This is obviously a reference to Isaiah 61:1-2, but He added the phrase about "recovery of sight to the blind."

Here's another:

... AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'  "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Mark 12:30-31  (CAPS - NASB)

The first part of this OT quote is from Deut. 6:5, minus the second part about loving neighbor as yourself.

Thoughts?
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:28 am

Because He was/is the Living Word.... He is the Only One Worthy to Expound in that manner upon How He Expresses Himself.

Anyone other than Him is not allowed the same liberty to do so, hence the warning (adding to or taking away) in the book of Revelation.

:2cents:
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby mark s on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:52 am

Hi Abiding,

Perhaps this will help.

1The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind;

2to declare the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of recompence; to comfort all that mourn;


The "missing phrase" is not missing from the Septuagint.

http://biblehub.com/sep/deuteronomy/6.htm

I think on the other example, wasn't Jesus putting together two different passages?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:49 am

shorttribber wrote:Because He was/is the Living Word.... He is the Only One Worthy to Expound in that manner upon How He Expresses Himself.

Anyone other than Him is not allowed the same liberty to do so, hence the warning (adding to or taking away) in the book of Revelation.

:2cents:


Good answer.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:15 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Because He was/is the Living Word.... He is the Only One Worthy to Expound in that manner upon How He Expresses Himself.

Anyone other than Him is not allowed the same liberty to do so, hence the warning (adding to or taking away) in the book of Revelation.

:2cents:


Good answer.


Thank you EC, it's good also to know that you feel the same way.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby mark s on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:26 pm

Please don't misunderstand me, I certainly don't disagree that Jesus is The One Who may restate Scripture and it remain Scripture.

Of course, it brings to mind that Jesus said that He only said what the Father spoke, so then it would be the Father restating His Word . . . this one quickly becomes interesting! :grin:

But just the same . . .

All NT quotes from the OT are quoted from the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the OT from about 250 BC.

The Septuagint is known as "the Apostle's Bible", due to their use of it.

There is an entire reasonably lengthy quote in Hebrews from Deuteronomy that does not appear in the Masoretic text, from which nearly all OT translations come from. There are other differences, as noted by Abiding.

The oldest Masoretic text dates from around 1000 AD, if memory serves. Which is increasingly less likely with age, I'm telling you! :(

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:13 pm

Most like to believe that there are no new revelations or truths yet to be revealed by our God,
but we must not forget or discount what our Lord said in John 16:13:

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come ."


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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:39 pm

mark s wrote:All NT quotes from the OT are quoted from the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the OT from about 250 BC.

The Septuagint is known as "the Apostle's Bible", due to their use of it.


Fausset's Bible Dictionary says this:

Of 350 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament only 50 differ materially from Septuagint Its language molded the conceptions of the New Testament writers and preachers. The Hebrew ideas and modes of thought are transfused into its Greek, which is wholly distinct from classic Greek in this.

Smith's Commentary says this:

Supposing the numerous glosses and duplicate renderings, which have evidently crept from the margin into the text, to be removed and forming a rough estimate of what the Septuagint was in its earliest state, we may, perhaps, say of it that it is the image of the original seen through a glass, not adjusted to the proper focus; the larger features are shown, but the sharpness of definition is lost. The close connection between the Old and the New Testament makes the study of the Septuagint most valuable, and indeed indispensable, to the theological student. It was manifestly the chief storehouse, from which the apostles drew their proofs and precepts.

My research (as best I could find) into the Septuagint translation, does combine the two phrases Jesus read in the Synagogue when He was handed the scrolls of Isaiah which includes mention of "sight to the blind."

Isaiah 61:1

The spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me;
he has sent me to bring good news to the
poor, to heal the brokenhearted,
to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind...

A New English Translation of the Septuagint, ©2007 by the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:41 pm

btw...I didn't mean to post this in the Prophecy Debate area. I should have posted it in the General Bible Study and Debate probably. :bag:
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:23 pm

Continuing on with my research about OT quotes in the NT...

There is a slight variation according to some scholars about the total number of quotes overall, but here is one that reports Paul's quotes alone equal @93 times or 1/3 of all OT quotes in the NT. This site breaks down a total of @ 1450 OT quotes in the NT into each book.

Generally, the consensus is that while there may be some overlap involving the Hebrew, Septuagint, and Greek but that the intent of the message is of primary importance and that the focus of the whole Bible is that of Jesus Christ.

Based on my understanding and observations, it is natural that some versions of our English Bibles will vary somewhat. And since there are approx. 1664 versions in a total of 1186 languages, it is equally natural that some variations will occur.

Providing the various versions do not stray from the Gospel message and the foundations of our beliefs, we are free to use the version we are most comfortable with.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Ready1 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:21 pm

...maybe because he wasn't using the KJV? :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby SueAnn on Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:33 pm

I have a more practical response. Jesus was speaking to people who were exceptionally well educated in the OT. There was no need for Him to quote word for word, He just needed a few words and they would know exactly what He was talking about.

Not like today. The average person is grossly uneducated in the bible. If Jesus were giving sermons today He would need to quote every word, and explain as He went along.

Back then He was teaching at college level...today He would be teaching Kindergarden.
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وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:16 pm

Keep in mind though SueAnn....He wasn't quoting. He was Reading.

Luke 4
.............he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

It could be that in the Hebrew text He read, it may or may not have said what is recorded in the Septuagint. It is possible, I think, that having things recorded as they are just could show that He was also, at the same time, validating the Septuagint before His Hebrew audience.

I don't know....just thinking out loud.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Mark F on Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:18 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:We believers often wrangle about words and phrases in scripture, but Jesus seemed to be more concern about the context of His quoting the OT.

Here's just one example:

And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."  And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.  And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." ]Luke 4:17-20  (CAPS -NASB)

This is obviously a reference to Isaiah 61:1-2, but He added the phrase about "recovery of sight to the blind."

Here's another:

... AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'  "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Mark 12:30-31  (CAPS - NASB)

The first part of this OT quote is from Deut. 6:5, minus the second part about loving neighbor as yourself.

Thoughts?


I have a PDF copy of the Septuagint (translated) also and find Mark S to be correct. If memory serves me, and it sometimes does not LOL, I remember reading or hearing that in Jesus time here on earth, the use of the Greek Septuagint would have been common place.

The second part you mentioned from Mark 12:30-31 is a passage from Leviticus 19:9-18 and lists many things about the treatment of our neighbors - from leaving the corners of the field uncut to not gleaning the vineyard to loving our neighbors as ourselves. So like Mark S said its two passages not adaptation based on context. I would agree that based on the context Jesus pulled Scripture from two different places, not that because He is the God-Man He can add to Scripture. For example, had not Jesus pointed out that the bronze serpent being put on a pole was a picture of Himself being made sin and hung on a tree for the sins of man, I would say we don't have Scripture telling us that is what it meant. I suppose after the fact it could be seen but without Jesus explaining it's meaning we would be assuming...


Having answers to this type of question is good apologetics, many believers could only stare at their shoes when asked by a skeptic why Jesus did this, and it also could be used as license to add to Scripture as some do....

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas, and have a Happy New Year.
Mark

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Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:59 am

shorttribber wrote: It is possible, I think, that having things recorded as they are just could show that He was also, at the same time, validating the Septuagint before His Hebrew audience.


Jesus was always correcting their understanding of scripture. Those in the synagogue would have been familiar with the passage from Isaiah, but Jesus was proclaiming that He was the fulfillment of the hundreds of scriptures that refer to the Messaiah...a fact they overlooked. He was challenging their understanding of that passage by revealing Himself as the annointed One.

It so angered them that they drove Jesus out of the synagogue and out of the city.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:30 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
shorttribber wrote: It is possible, I think, that having things recorded as they are just could show that He was also, at the same time, validating the Septuagint before His Hebrew audience.


Jesus was always correcting their understanding of scripture. Those in the synagogue would have been familiar with the passage from Isaiah, but Jesus was proclaiming that He was the fulfillment of the hundreds of scriptures that refer to the Messaiah...a fact they overlooked. He was challenging their understanding of that passage by revealing Himself as the annointed One.

It so angered them that they drove Jesus out of the synagogue and out of the city.


I think it may just have been both what you're saying and what I've also already said....I think you just basically reaffirmed what I said in my first post.

As the living Word, He said it the way he said it because He was in Authority to do so....and also I think he was Saying it in that way to confirm the Reliability of the Septuagint.

And I might add....he went on to elaborate on the heavens being shut for Israel while the Blessings of Provision and Healing Lit upon the Gentiles when the heavens were shut in those days.
And History was just about to repeat... the Words were most agreement with the Septuagint...the Greek Word of God they Had.............He was forecasting How the Bread from Heaven was Shut up for the Jews, Even though the Gospel was to them first.

So, He speaks to them in the Form the Septuagint Gives, because the Dogs WOULD Receive Him, when his Own would not.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Exit40 on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:52 am

Jesus the Man God did not speak out of turn or add anything to Scripture, as the Bible OT and now NT contains only that which we need to hear to come to belief and repentance.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Much more COULD be written but it was not ....

Jhn 21:25 ¶ And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

We have what we need, why pick at at Lord and King ?

God Bless

David
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T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:59 am

Exit40 wrote:We have what we need, why pick at at Lord and King ?

I don't think I'm doing that at all David. I think we don't know Absolutely IF He was reading from a Text WORD for WORD...or AS THE WORD Having Become Flesh.

Exit40 wrote:John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Correct....Not in Conflict, but Perfect Unity.

I agree with that....and have not suggested otherwise.

The Father is not a Scroll...He is as Much the Living Word as the Son.

What has been Given to us is Also not a Scroll....but the Living Word of God.....whereby we cry Abba Father.

Romans 8
14 For as many as are ..........led by the Spirit of God,............ they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
..............................................................................................................................................
Christ was .........led by the Spirit of God.......Into the wilderness to be tempted/tested......then His First Stop to Preach was at the Place we are now discussing.
And the Father/Spirit of the Father in Unity LED Him to Read and Say Exactly what he Said.

The Living Word SAID what the Father Said through Him.


And now that Same Living Word is In Us......the Scrolls Persih...but He and We are Eternal Through Him.

The Letter of the Scroll Kills, but the Spirit of the Word Gives Life.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby Exit40 on Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:04 am

shorttribber wrote:I don't think I'm doing that at all David. I think we don't know Absolutely IF He was reading from a Text WORD for WORD...or AS THE WORD Having Become Flesh.


Not accusing here Brother, hope you can see that.

Correct....Not in Conflict, but Perfect Unity....

The Letter of the Scroll Kills, but the Spirit of the Word Gives Life.


Agree perfectly...

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Jesus didn't quote OT verbatim...why?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:08 am

:grin: :hugs: :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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