Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:02 pm

keithareilly wrote:You ask how can a man contain God then post that the fullness of God dwelt in bodily form.


HI Keith,

Of course I asked the aforementioned question - as this is EXACTLY what Scripture states. I challenge you to think a little bit more about what is being said here.

God is Spirit. In the Beginning He is SPIRIT. So if Scripture states that the All the fullness of Deity dwelt in Christ in bodily form that doesn't limit Him to Flesh and Bone. Even the Ark of the Covenant - in which God dwelt could not contain Him.

I just believe we as mere men put limitations on God to fit our own understanding. This is where some problems arise.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:05 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The passage says, that Jesus emptied Himself, He gave up His equality with God and became a servant, being MADE in the likeness of men. How this practically happened we can only guess, how did Jesus go from equality with God in heaven to being joined with Mary's DNA in her womb? Only God knows the mechanics of that.


Hi RT,

The operative word in your aforementioned comments is "MADE in the likeness of men". Never says He was a man. And how can He be joined to Mary's DNA? Did He not Create even Mary? Did He not Create EVERYTHING?
So are you suggesting that He Created Himself?
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:10 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Let me share where I think we are running into problems and a bit of confusion. I think if we try to separate the Trinity into "roles," we are overlooking the importance of the unity, agreement, purpose, and indivisibility, etc. among the members.


Hi Abiding,

I'm sorry - but Scripture itself identifies various "roles" that each member of the Trinity performs. And this certainly does not to negate any importance of their unity, agreement, or purpose - no, none whatsoever. They agree as ONE.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:28 pm

Reposted later for sequencing reasons.
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:40 pm

But we do know why He did it, the book of Hebrews tells us. If Jesus was not in any way human then His sacrifice would not have been legitimate and we humans would not have had a redeemer:


Resurrection Torchlight,

There was already a system in place for the forgiveness of sin. The only difference is that while that system (Levitical Priesthood) had to be performed yearly, Jesus' sacrifice as the High Priest was offered once for all time. That's why Paul calls it a better covenant. Heb_12:24  and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

But what you said is important that Jesus emptied Himself and humbled Himself. He did those things without exhibiting His deity or equality with God although He was.

He did, however, exhibit His deity when He healed the sick, raised the dead, forgave sins (before His death) and was resurrected from death.

BTW, God is spirit. He is in reality genderless but possesses both male and female attributes and/or characteristics.

Gen 49:25  From the God of your father who helps you, And by the Almighty who blesses you with blessings of heaven above, Blessings of the deep that lies beneath, Blessings of the breasts and of the womb

Isa 46:3  "Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, You who have been borne by Me from birth And have been carried from the womb...

Psalm 24:8  Who is the King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, The LORD mighty in battle.  


Neither does God have eyes nor wings.

Psalm 17:8  Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me in the shadow of Your wings 

Because we can't comprehend God as a Spirit, He reveals Himself to us in metaphors that we can understand.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:43 pm

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 17:21-23
19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not drive it out?” 20And He said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. 21[“But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”]

I think it is fair to say the Holy Spirit did not reside in those to whom God said: "I never knew you".
Yet, they cast out demons and healed the sick. Jesus said it is lack of faith that prevents us from such things.
The disciples cast out demons and such before receiving the Holy Spirit; they were not demon possessed.
It is not lack of spirit, God's or some demons, that prevents us from doing these things.
It is our lack of faith.

The implication is: The ability to do such things is inherent in humans.
We are created in God's likeness. We need to be more aware of how God like we were created.

Keith
Edited for clarity.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:57 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:I'm sorry - but Scripture itself identifies various "roles" that each member of the Trinity performs. And this certainly does not to negate any importance of their unity, agreement, or purpose - no, none whatsoever. They agree as ONE.


No need to be sorry, Mr Baldy.... :wink: Point taken and understood. My aversion to using that word is simply because most tend to ignore the unity, equality, agreement and oneness of the three. That usually leads to creating a hierarchy in the Trinity rather than the presence of all three in ministry throughout scripture evidenced by the baptism of Jesus reflecting the Trinity in the person of Jesus, the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove, and the voice from heaven. I don't see the word "role" in scripture and technically today it refers to one who is playing a part or following a script. I rather prefer referring to the individual interactions and/or relationships throughout scripture that reflect love, long suffering, compassion, etc. common and expressed by all three in unity or as one.

In other words, the Trinity is not comprised of three "lone rangers" acting independently of one another. (Forgive the comparison...it was the best I could come up with.) They are three in one which is beyond our comprehension.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:19 am

So are you suggesting that He Created Himself?


Well in a sense yes, would that be beyond His capability to do so? He allowed Himself to be formed into a human being.

Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

He gave up His status to assume a lower form, lower than angels, and what is lower than angels? Humans are. So yes, Jesus allowed Himself to be born as a human child to Mary. But the fullness of God was in Him and He did not sin.

I think you missed this bit:
Hebrews 2:14–18
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.


He had to be made like his brethren in all things, ALL THINGS, the passage in particular points out the fact that the "children" or brethren are human/ flesh and blood. He was not made like them in some things, but in all things, in every way. So He was fully God and fully man. Your issue seems to be that you cannot reconcile these two things. But both are true, I cannot explain it, but that is what scripture says.

You make the claim that Jesus only cloaked Himself with Human flesh, if this is true then practically speaking, what does that mean? How did Jesus cloak Himself in Human flesh? If He is clothed in humanity, then doesn't that mean that He is at least in part, human?

Do you deny that He was born as an infant to Mary? She was found to be with child BY the Holy Spirit, what does that mean to you? If Jane Doe says she is pregnant by John Doe, we all know what that means. Why should that mean something different in Mary's case? When a baby is conceived it is essentially created, right? Jesus the child, was conceived in Mary's womb, He left His heavenly estate, in order for this to happen. We can speculate on the mechanics of this, but the fact remains, that Jesus, the baby born to Mary, was conceived through some sort of union between Mary and the Holy Spirit.Scripture is very clear on this point.

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:33 am

Abiding wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight,

There was already a system in place for the forgiveness of sin. The only difference is that while that system (Levitical Priesthood) had to be performed yearly, Jesus' sacrifice as the High Priest was offered once for all time. That's why Paul calls it a better covenant. Heb_12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


Hi Abiding, not really sure what you are pointing out here. But I offer you this:

Hebrews 10:1–4
1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


Hebrews 10:8–12
8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,


Hebrews 10:18–22
18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:37 am

(This follows onto the passages in my previous post)
Jesus had to become human, so that He could become the perfect unblemished sacrifice, in order to redeem mankind. He could only do this if He was fully human and also fully God.

Hebrews 9:11–16
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.


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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:07 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Abiding wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight,

There was already a system in place for the forgiveness of sin. The only difference is that while that system (Levitical Priesthood) had to be performed yearly, Jesus' sacrifice as the High Priest was offered once for all time. That's why Paul calls it a better covenant. Heb_12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


Hi Abiding, not really sure what you are pointing out here. But I offer you this:

Hebrews 10:1–4
1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


Hi RT, of course the purpose of the Levitical priesthood was offering blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of the people; atonement and reconciliation. There are many scriptures that support the procedure, but here's just a few:
Exodus 30:10
Lev. 4:20
Lev. 4:26
Lev. 16:29-30
Num. 15:28

Heb. 7:27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 

Heb. 9:7   but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 


The point Paul was making in the passage you posted (Heb. 10:1-4) was that the continual, repetitive offering by the High Priest was a constant remembrance of sin, and the they would never lose sight of that fact. But Jesus' once-for-all-time sacrifice was far superior in that there would no longer be the continual guilt and shame. Paul quotes from Jeremiah 31 regarding the beauty of the new covenant ..."their sins and iniquities will I remember no more". 

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:25 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:I see you didn’t quite grasp the distinction I made between the spiritual and the material nature of Jesus Christ while He walked this earth. So please explain to me why you think I’m totally wrong about Jesus’ physical nature having a beginning or creation point


Hi Sonbeam,

I understood you totally.......

I just wholeheartedly disagree with you even implying that Jesus had a beginning. HE did NOT.

Mr. Baldy said:

Sonbeam, in the body that Jesus possessed - He said "Before Abraham was I AM". Do you not understand that He was saying that He was GOD?


Mr. Baldy,

Wherever did you get the idea that I didn’t believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh?

Here again is what I said in my first post:

sonbeam said:

You said, “Jesus was NEVER created. “ and you are partly right. He was not created in the spiritual sense. He has always been God.

However, in the physical sense, i.e., His body of flesh, He was. With divine DNA no less.


The Word has been with God from all eternity. But in order to enter into our finite world and reveal the Father to man, the Word needed a body of flesh.

Heb 10:5

Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

Mr. Baldy said:

You want to attribute His Fleshly Body to DNA - a DNA (if you can even call it that) by the way which He created.
HE and HE alone created EVERTHING..........so again, I wholeheartedly disagree with your point.


I'm really puzzled by your statement above Mr Baldy. Do you believe the body that Jesus, the Word of God, "cloaked" Himself in was of a different substance or composition than that of a human being?

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:12 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Jesus is called the son is he not? And He calls God His father does he not? Throughout the NT Jesus refers to God as "my Father".

As others have noted Jesus appeared in the flesh, as a child, who was physically born to the woman Mary. Don't think I really have to explain where babies come from here, but it takes a mother and a father to "create" a child. Mary was the mother and God was the Father, via the Holy Spirit:

It is because Mary was pregnant BY the Holy Spirit, that the "Child" is called the Son of God, because God is His Father. I think the part that causes confusion here, is that Jesus existed before He was born as a child on earth.


Agree with all of these points, RT. God the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary which is why Jesus refers to God as His Father. This, then, is the fulfillment of the promise in Genesis regarding the seed of the woman being the Savior as well as the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:

Isa 9:6  For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Ready1 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:25 pm

For consideration:

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Just observing.

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:40 pm

Hi RT,

Let's take a look at some of the things you have responded to, as I think that you have provided some very excellent responses:

Mr Baldy wrote:So are you suggesting that He Created Himself?


Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Well in a sense yes, would that be beyond His capability to do so? He allowed Himself to be formed into a human being.


RT..........I took a deep breath when you responded this way. I thought to myself....WOW, someone is FINALLY seeing my thought process. Not saying that either one of us are right. But in light of everything else that has been presented, I find your response absolutely AMAZING!

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:He gave up His status to assume a lower form, lower than angels, and what is lower than angels? Humans are. So yes, Jesus allowed Himself to be born as a human child to Mary. But the fullness of God was in Him and He did not sin.


I also like this response.......In that you very CLEARLY identify that "He gave up His statue to assume a lower form" - and "He ALLOWED Himself to be born as a human child". You continue with a most excellent response in saying "But the fullness of God was in Him and He did not sin."

Resurrection Torchlight wrote: He was not made like them in some things, but in all things, in every way. So He was fully God and fully man. Your issue seems to be that you cannot reconcile these two things. But both are true, I cannot explain it, but that is what scripture says.


Your aforementioned statement here begs for further clarification - as it appears to be double-talk. You clean this up by saying you cannot explain it - however, you put yourself back into the "rabbit hole" in that you say "but that is what Scripture says." I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture on this matter. So the question remains...........We know He is God - as Scripture clearly identifies that - but is He fully man?
I say unequivocally NO. Because of the things He did having human flesh supersede all human logic . No mere man can do those things - not even the so called "Super Humans" of any era of time.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:You make the claim that Jesus only cloaked Himself with Human flesh, if this is true then practically speaking, what does that mean? How did Jesus cloak Himself in Human flesh? If He is clothed in humanity, then doesn't that mean that He is at least in part, human?


RT, please don't put words that I did not say into any response or statement that I have made. I have NEVER mentioned the fact that Jesus ever "cloaked Himself with Human flesh". You won't find anywhere where I have ever used this terminology.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Do you deny that He was born as an infant to Mary? She was found to be with child BY the Holy Spirit, what does that mean to you? If Jane Doe says she is pregnant by John Doe, we all know what that means. Why should that mean something different in Mary's case? When a baby is conceived it is essentially created, right? Jesus the child, was conceived in Mary's womb, He left His heavenly estate, in order for this to happen. We can speculate on the mechanics of this, but the fact remains, that Jesus, the baby born to Mary, was conceived through some sort of union between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Scripture is very clear on this point.


In your aforementioned response, let me answer you in chronological order as you presented each question to me. First, I would never deny that Jesus was born as an infant to Mary. Second, Jesus being born by the Holy Spirt means exactly that - He was born by the Holy Spirit - and what it means to me is Mary was ONLY a vessel. His birth had ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to do with her other than carrying Jesus to Term. He took no DNA from her or anything to do with His identity, as He Created the very body that she gave birth to Him in. Nonetheless, He Existed prior to becoming flesh. Third, I wish that others would begin to look at the Deity of Jesus Christ; the FACT that He Created EVERYTHING that is - and use their own God given ability to "Think"; further use that same ability to process information based on Scripture, and STOP listening to modern day Preachers, Teachers, and those who claim to know Truth, without doing their own research.

RT, this is certainly no personal attack on you, as I have totally admired your response - or anyone else on this forum. I just see things that believers present, and it's the same ole nonsense that is being presented in most pulpits without research. Sometimes spending quiet time in pray and searching the Scriptures for one's self is most rewarding.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:58 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:You want to attribute His Fleshly Body to DNA - a DNA (if you can even call it that) by the way which He created. HE and HE alone created EVERTHING..........so again, I wholeheartedly disagree with your point.


Sonbeam wrote:I'm really puzzled by your statement above Mr Baldy. Do you believe the body that Jesus, the Word of God, "cloaked" Himself in was of a different substance or composition than that of a human being?


Hi Sonbeam,

In reference to your aforementioned response.........

I think that you may be missing a very key point here. It appears that you are assuming that Jesus has DNA.

Just so you know, DNA comes from both parents. Humanly speaking we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Well, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit as far as His body is concerned. Mary was ONLY a vessel - as He most certainly created her as well. So how can He get DNA from the very DNA He created? Would you agree that this makes absolutely no Sense as He was ALWAYS in existence? One can't change His Nature no matter what Form He's in.

You have used the word "cloaked" I did not. But to answer the last half of your question - the very substance, or Body if you will; that He resided in - in the form of a man; I ask you, what difference would it make if it was a "different composition than that of a human" if He made it?

Do you not understand that God is Spirit - and Jesus is GOD? Absolutely Nothing in this Universe can contain Him.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:19 pm

Mr. Baldy,

To say that Jesus was more than human and therefore cannot be human is not logical.

Men are God's likeness.
Jesus, having the fullness of God in human form is the ultimate example of "God's likeness"; therefore, more human than any other man. Jesus meets all the possible likenesses of God man can experience.
The fact that Jesus exceeds all possible humanness because He is actually God does not mean He is not also human.

That kind of reasoning is like saying: I have an infinite number of apples; but, I do not have an apple.

Look at it this way. An image of something contains only a subset of the characteristics of the original.
Generally, an image exists in a different medium; for example digital, paper, oil, etc.; not the medium of the original.
If we call that image Man and recognize that Man is a subset of God's full characteristics in a flesh and blood medium, then we can be certain that Jesus, being God, has sufficient characteristics to meet the subset called Man, and He took on the medium when the Word became flash. The fact that He exceeds that subset does not diminish the fact the He meets the qualifications of being Man.

Keith
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Last edited by keithareilly on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:04 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
He was not made like them in some things, but in all things, in every way. So He was fully God and fully man. Your issue seems to be that you cannot reconcile these two things. But both are true, I cannot explain it, but that is what scripture says.



Your aforementioned statement here begs for further clarification - as it appears to be double-talk. You clean this up by saying you cannot explain it - however, you put yourself back into the "rabbit hole" in that you say "but that is what Scripture says." I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture on this matter. So the question remains...........We know He is God - as Scripture clearly identifies that - but is He fully man?
I say unequivocally NO. Because of the things He did having human flesh supersede all human logic . No mere man can do those things - not even the so called "Super Humans" of any era of time.


Mr. Baldy can you be more specific, what interpretation do you disagree with? I see no "double talk" the passage I refer to says it plainly, Jesus was made like His brethren in all things. You seem to skirt this point. If this is what you disagree with, then I would be most interested in knowing why, and how you would interpret the passage.

One more question for clarification: If you believe that Mary was merely a vessel and that the body that Jesus was born into was in every way completely divine, then what was that body made of? I am not trying to niggle you here, but He had a physical body, that in every way appeared human to other people, including His mother. Was it a human body? Or was it something else? If it was a divinely created genetically human body, then whether or not Mary contributed her DNA really isn't at issue, the point remaining is that Jesus was still in human form, in human flesh, meaning He was Human.

RT, please don't put words that I did not say into any response or statement that I have made. I have NEVER mentioned the fact that Jesus ever "cloaked Himself with Human flesh". You won't find anywhere where I have ever used this terminology.


I apologize, after re reading the thread, I realize that I mistook what someone else replied as coming from you, sorry about that. (And we are good, I haven't felt attacked by you in any way Mr. Baldy.)

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:11 pm

keithareilly wrote:To say that Jesus was more than human and therefore cannot be human is not logical.


Not sure what you are saying here :humm:

keithareilly wrote:Jesus, having the fullness of God in human form is the ultimate example of "God's likeness"; therefore, more human than any other man.


Isn't this a contradiction to your first aforementioned statement :humm:

keithareilly wrote:The fact that Jesus exceeds all possible humanness because He is actually God does not mean He is not also human.


Again, your aforementioned comments are the reason relating to the question on the Subject Matter of this Thread.

I have mentioned this several times now. God is Spirit. Jesus is GOD.
You have stated that "because He is actually God does not mean He is not also human". - Oh Really?

Can God be Human? Scripture clearly states: "God is not a man that He should lie" - (Numbers 23:19)
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:35 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Mr. Baldy can you be more specific, what interpretation do you disagree with? I see no "double talk" the passage I refer to says it plainly, Jesus was made like His brethren in all things. You seem to skirt this point. If this is what you disagree with, then I would be most interested in knowing why, and how you would interpret the passage.


RT my sincerest apologies. I initially misread what you wrote. I thought that you wrote that Jesus was made like His brethren in "some things, but not all things". So I stand corrected.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:One more question for clarification: If you believe that Mary was merely a vessel and that the body that Jesus was born into was in every way completely divine, then what was that body made of? I am not trying to niggle you here, but He had a physical body, that in every way appeared human to other people, including His mother. Was it a human body? Or was it something else? If it was a divinely created genetically human body, then whether or not Mary contributed her DNA really isn't at issue, the point remaining is that Jesus was still in human form, in human flesh, meaning He was Human.


Ok, let's do get clarification on this issue. First, I have NEVER said that the body that "Jesus was born into was in every way completely divine" - Again RT, let's not put words into my statements that I did not present. What I did say was:

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jesus being born by the Holy Spirt means exactly that - He was born by the Holy Spirit - and what it means to me is Mary was ONLY a vessel. His birth had ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to do with her other than carrying Jesus to Term. He took no DNA from her or anything to do with His identity, as He Created the very body that she gave birth to Him in. Nonetheless, He Existed prior to becoming flesh.


Now, in responding to the rest of your question(s) Yes He had a human body; meaning it was physical; and He "appeared" human to anyone who saw Him - but where I believe you make a comment on which I cannot agree upon is that you use the word "genetic". If He created Mary - meaning He alone is responsible for her DNA then how can He draw DNA from her? He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Well, Spirit is Spirit, and Flesh is Flesh. Spirit has NO DNA.

So you tell me.........was He fully man?
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:36 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I apologize, after re reading the thread, I realize that I mistook what someone else replied as coming from you, sorry about that. (And we are good, I haven't felt attacked by you in any way Mr. Baldy.)


:itsgood:
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:39 pm

Mr. Baldy wrote ...
Can God be Human? Scripture clearly states: "God is not a man that He should lie" - (Numbers 23:19)


Numbers was written before The Word become flesh.

Do you think Jesus's flesh during His visitation was human flesh?

Keith
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:54 pm

Mr. Baldy.

A human is: The image of God. A Godlike being.
In seed form a human is flesh and blood created with some/many of God's attributes.
I have not experienced the resurrected (non seed) phase and am not able to describe a human after resurrection. However, the resurrected phase is sufficiently different as a resurrected human can inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Generally, the seed phase of a thing is almost nothing when compared to the full grown non-seed phase.

What do you think a human is?

Keith
Edited
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:22 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy wrote ...
Can God be Human? Scripture clearly states: "God is not a man that He should lie" - (Numbers 23:19)


Numbers was written before The Word become flesh.

Do you think Jesus's flesh during His visitation was human flesh?

Keith


Hey Keith,

This is what Hebrews 13:8 has to say in response to your statement about the Book of Numbers:

Hebrews 13:8 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever".
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:23 pm

keithareilly wrote:What do you think a human is?


Human :mrgreen:
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:10 pm

Mr Baldy.

Corn does not cease being corn because the kernel was planted in the ground, then grew toward the sky, then bore fruit. Corn is corn regardless of the phase it is in.

The Word became flesh describes a transformation; God begot a Son.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever; the transformation from Word to flesh, the begot process, did not change Jesus's nature anymore than corn changes its nature when going from seed to plant then back to seed.

Through Jesus all things were created. Creation makes clear God's power, nature, and attributes; therefore, the cycle of seed to maturity to fruitfulness speaks about God's nature, power, and attributes. So why should I be surprised to discover the Creator can change form while retaining His nature? The evidence is all around us. Creation reflects the Creator.

Keith
Edited
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:01 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:What do you think a human is?


Human :mrgreen:


Is this how you want me to answer your questions?
I do have other things to do.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:45 am

keithareilly wrote:Corn does not cease being corn because the kernel was planted in the ground, then grew toward the sky, then bore fruit. Corn is corn regardless of the phase it is in.


Keith, you keep using these human analogies, and comparing them to something that is Spiritual. Let's think outside of the proverbial box - and look at what is being conveyed here from a spiritual perspective. After all - Scripture says that we must worship Him in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:24)

keithareilly wrote:The Word became flesh describes a transformation; God begot a Son.


I think we're getting somewhere now!

keithareilly wrote:Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever; the transformation from Word to flesh, the begot process, did not change Jesus's nature


EXACTLY!

So........if the Word became flesh and it did not change His Nature - as you have mentioned; how would you explain that because the very flesh that housed Him made Him a man?
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Exit40 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:34 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
So........if the Word became flesh and it did not change His Nature - as you have mentioned; how would you explain that because the very flesh that housed Him made Him a man?


Mr B, Jesus has to be fully human or Scripture is at fault. The Savior must come from the line of David in order to be the Savior and promised King of Israel. Thus the Son of Man, Jesus, is a man conceived of the Holy Spirit born to Mary a human female. Making Jesus the Man/King Israel is expecting according to the Scripture.

Regarding this DNA discussion, every living thing on this planet and anywhere else life may exist has DNA as it's the basis for life. Nothing can 'live' without DNA. Jesus says life is in the blood, which carries His human DNA for one, and the Scriptural 'Spirit' meaning if you will is Jesus blood washes us clean. How you may ask ? Because His blood is pure, not being born into sin like mere mortal man, and because God is His Father through His Holy Spirit, the Son being the promised seed, Messiah, and Savior. Can Jesus the Son of God create Himself ? No doubt in my mind He can do with ease anything He pleases, I will not limit Him in any fashion as you do, and yes you do limit Him. Scripture states plainly Jesus was killed, so how can Jesus not be fully man if He can be killed, and at the same time He fulfills the Prophecy's about Himself as a human sacrifice. His blood must be spilled in order for the Covenant to be honored. Yet His Spirit lives on, today He is a Glorified man, God/King of Israel and ruler of this world. Do you believe your Spirit will live on ? Of course it will, and exist in a suspended state of some sort until the Lord put your dust all back together again in a glorified form, like the one He now exists in.

I once argued Jesus cannot be fully man, because He does not sin. Truthfully, man's nature as God intended is also sinless, Adam the first man was created that way. Jesus the second Man was created that way too, just as Scripture explains. And yes, God can create His own human body that must follow the instructions of all creation, physical Laws that can only be broken by Divine intervention, one in particular being, Jesus has God's Y chromosome, and Mary provides the rest, in order for Him to fulfill the Law and the Prophets as a human male. Hope this helps clarify this issue for you.

God Bless You

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:56 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Corn does not cease being corn because the kernel was planted in the ground, then grew toward the sky, then bore fruit. Corn is corn regardless of the phase it is in.


Keith, you keep using these human analogies, and comparing them to something that is Spiritual. Let's think outside of the proverbial box - and look at what is being conveyed here from a spiritual perspective. After all - Scripture says that we must worship Him in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:24)


1 Corinthians 15:35-39
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.

As you can see from the above example, these are not human analogies, they are scriptural analogies. This very analogy is used in scripture to describe the transformation of our bodies when we are resurrected.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

You said earlier this topic is about who Jesus is. As you have pointed out, everything was created through Him and He is God. Therefore, His creation evidences who He is. The analogy is not mine; it is provided by creation, as described in Roman's 1:20, and helps us to understand (clearly see) God's power, divine nature, and invisible attributes. The fact that I am pointing them out does not grant me ownership of those analogies. They are provided to us by Jesus throughout His creation in everything that goes from seed to maturity then again produces seed. The evidence of God's trans formative power, nature, and attributes thoroughly permeates His creation thus revealing Him for who He is.

Keith
Edited
Last edited by keithareilly on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:26 pm

Hi David,

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Interestingly, if the "her seed" mentioned in this verse is Jesus, then we know for certain Jesus had Eve's DNA for the verse says "her seed".

Luke 1:31-32
31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;

The verse above describes Mary "conceiving" which means her egg was involved. She was not a surrogate if she conceived. Furthermore, she bears a son, not just some male child, but a son, her son.


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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:56 pm

keithareilly wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Corn does not cease being corn because the kernel was planted in the ground, then grew toward the sky, then bore fruit. Corn is corn regardless of the phase it is in.


Keith, you keep using these human analogies, and comparing them to something that is Spiritual. Let's think outside of the proverbial box - and look at what is being conveyed here from a spiritual perspective. After all - Scripture says that we must worship Him in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:24)


1 Corinthians 15:35-39
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.

As you can see from the above example, these are not human analogies, they are scriptural analogies. This very analogy is used in scripture to describe the transformation of our bodies when we are resurrected.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

You said earlier this topic is about who Jesus is. As you have pointed out, everything was created through Him and He is God. Therefore, His creation evidences who He is. The analogy is not mine; it is provided by creation, as described in Roman's 1:20, and helps us to understand (clearly see) God's power, divine nature, and invisible attributes. The fact that I am pointing them out does not grant me ownership of those analogies. They are provided to us by Jesus throughout His creation in everything that goes from seed to maturity then again produces seed. The evidence of God's trans formative power, nature, and attributes thoroughly permeates both His creation thus revealing Him for who He is.

Keith
Edited

These words are beyond any Reasonable dispute. :a3:
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:57 pm

keithareilly wrote:Hi David,

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Interestingly, if the "her seed" mentioned in this verse is Jesus, then we know for certain Jesus had Eve's DNA for the verse says "her seed".

Luke 1:31-32
31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;

The verse above describes Mary "conceiving" which means her egg was involved. She was not a surrogate if she conceived. Furthermore, she bears a son, not just some male child, but a son, her son.


Keith


And here too...these words are beyond any Reasonable dispute. :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:15 pm

Exit40 wrote:Mr B, Jesus has to be fully human or Scripture is at fault. The Savior must come from the line of David in order to be the Savior and promised King of Israel. Thus the Son of Man, Jesus, is a man conceived of the Holy Spirit born to Mary a human female. Making Jesus the Man/King Israel is expecting according to the Scripture.


Again, I still see many missing the point here. God is Spirit - Jesus is GOD in the Flesh. He created EVERYTHING. Including that body He dwelt in - and most certainly cannot contain Him.

So why does he have to be "fully human or Scripture is at fault" :humm:

Exit40 wrote:Regarding this DNA discussion, every living thing on this planet and anywhere else life may exist has DNA as it's the basis for life.


Who Created DNA?

Exit40 wrote: Can Jesus the Son of God create Himself ?


Your very aforementioned question has been asked by me on prior Thread I initiated with a similar Subject - and it was not received well.

Exit40 wrote: I will not limit Him in any fashion as you do, and yes you do limit Him.


If you have any evidence whatsoever where I have EVER limited Jesus - then please point it out if you can.

Exit40 wrote:Scripture states plainly Jesus was killed, so how can Jesus not be fully man if He can be killed, and at the same time He fulfills the Prophecy's about Himself as a human sacrifice.


Did the Spirit of Jesus die - or did His body die?

Exit40 wrote:Yet His Spirit lives on, today He is a Glorified man


Please prove with Scripture of course that Jesus is anything other than God. Show me where it says He is a "Glorified man"

Exit40 wrote:Truthfully, man's nature as God intended is also sinless


Oh really :humm:

On the contrary - this is what Scripture has to say about man's nature:

Romans 3:10-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11) There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;
12) All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”


And This:

Jeremiah 17:9 - King James Version (KJV)

9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?



Exit40 wrote:Jesus has God's Y chromosome


:humm:

So you are saying that God - Who is Spirit has a Y Chromosome?
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:20 pm

keithareilly wrote:1 Corinthians 15:35-3935 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. As you can see from the above example, these are not human analogies, they are scriptural analogies. This very analogy is used in scripture to describe the transformation of our bodies when we are resurrected.


Absolutely Keith.........but the analogies you used were NOT based on Scripture, but your own human interpretation. That is the issue I was addressing as you wrote this:

keithareilly wrote:Corn does not cease being corn because the kernel was planted in the ground, then grew toward the sky, then bore fruit. Corn is corn regardless of the phase it is in.


This is your analogy - NOT SCRIPTURE.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:19 pm

Mr Baldy,

I have other things to do. It has been fun; I always clear up those opaque areas of my own beliefs with our discussions.

In departing, I suggest to you that your definition of "human" is what is causing you issues.
You asked David
Did the Spirit of Jesus die - or did His body die?


I suggest you Read 1 Samuel 28 about the witch of Endor conjuring Samual for King Saul.
Then ask yourself the question: "Did the spirit of Samual die - or did his body die?"
Perhaps you might glean human death as: the body dies but the spirit lives.
To say Jesus experienced human death is exactly accurate.
When you read it, notice the spirit of Samuel, a dead human, is divine (verse 13).

Keith
Edited.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:10 pm

keithareilly wrote: I suggest to you that your definition of "human" is what is causing you issues.


"issues" :humm:

Well sir, I suggest to you, that it has become very apparent to me that you have not discovered what is human, and what is divine.

You have totally missed the point in this Thread - and very frankly it is most unfortunate.

Instead of you admitting that you just don't know how Jesus can be human and divine, you want to throw human logic into something that is incomprehensible. This very frankly has caused you "issues".
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:52 pm

:peace:
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:18 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

To say that Jesus was more than human and therefore cannot be human is not logical.

Men are God's likeness.
Look at it this way. An image of something contains only a subset of the characteristics of the original.
Generally, an image exists in a different medium; for example digital, paper, oil, etc.; not the medium of the original.
If we call that image Man and recognize that Man is a subset of God's full characteristics in a flesh and blood medium, then we can be certain that Jesus, being God, has sufficient characteristics to meet the subset called Man, and He took on the medium when the Word became flash. The fact that He exceeds that subset does not diminish the fact the He meets the qualifications of being Man.

Keith
Edited


Great comments Keith! You got it.

Another way of saying this is that God, Who granted the spirit of man at his creation a very limited level of His attributes, possessed and transcended all of those attributes in Christ by His Divinity.

So was Christ 100 % man?

Yes, in a very unique way, for the purpose of being our substitute in taking the punishment for sin in our place.

No, He was not. Because unlike Adam, Christ being God in the flesh could not sin.

:blessyou:

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:26 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote: I suggest to you that your definition of "human" is what is causing you issues.


"issues" :humm:

Well sir, I suggest to you, that it has become very apparent to me that you have not discovered what is human, and what is divine.

You have totally missed the point in this Thread - and very frankly it is most unfortunate.

Instead of you admitting that you just don't know how Jesus can be human and divine, you want to throw human logic into something that is incomprehensible. This very frankly has caused you "issues".


Communication issues. It seems we are all missing your point.
We do not agree on the definition of human, consequently, we are not communicating.
When I suspected this might be the case, I asked you for your definition of human.
You have chosen to not provide a definition; though you pointed out in this last post we do not agree on the definition.
Until we speak the same language, words with the same meanings, communication cannot happen.

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:30 pm

Hi Keith,

Let me show you a very clear example of double-talk - and very apparent contradictions:

You wrote this:

keithareilly wrote:We do not agree on the definition of human, consequently, we are not communicating.


Here you clearly state that "We do not agree on the definition of human."

Then you write this:

keithareilly wrote:When I suspected this might be the case, I asked you for your definition of human.


You were given an answer. If you did not like it, that is something you must deal with.

You further write this:

keithareilly wrote:You have chosen to not provide a definition; though you pointed out in this last post we do not agree on the definition.


Here in lies the double talk. First you mention that we do not agree on the definition of human, and then in your aforementioned comment you say that I "have not chosen to provide a definition". Go figure :humm:

Again, the Subject of this Thread poses the question on whether or not Jesus is God or man? I have never been dogmatic about my views - yet here you are being completely dogmatic about yours and you have mentioned absolutely nothing to support your ideology with Scripture that adds up. You further appear to be getting upset because you are being called out to justify your reasoning.

You are applying human logic to something that is completely incomprehensible. This is why a "Scriptural Analogy" should be applied to any so-call human reasoning so that unwarranted human dogmatism is ruled out.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:03 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:What do you think a human is?


Human :mrgreen:


Mr. Baldy,

This was your response to my question.
Your response is not a definition.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:30 pm

Mr Baldy wrote ..
You are applying human logic to something that is completely incomprehensible.
I am human. I cannot help but apply human logic. To expect anything else is not reasonable.

I have requested your input in hopes to grasp what you are putting forth - as evidenced by these previous posts...
Mr. Baldy, I am not certain for what you are looking.
And ...
Mr. Baldy, I need some more direct and specific questions from you in order to address what you wish to address as I do not yet know you well enough to anticipate where you are going with this.


I am open to other points of view. However, like most people, I will continue to hold my views until I hear a better one.

If you are willing to express your views and thoughts, I still am willing to listen.

Keith
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:41 am

Reptilian virgin births found in nature

The article also links to virgin births of shark and Komodo dragon.

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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:I am human. I cannot help but apply human logic. To expect anything else is not reasonable.


Hi Keith,

Just want to address what you said with Scripture - hopefully it will extract some sort of ideas on why I began this thread.

In your aforementioned comment you basically said that because you are human, you can help but to apply human logic, and to expect anything else is not reasonable.

Well, here are a few passages of Scripture to consider in relation to the comments you made:

John 4:24 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


And this:

John 3:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


And:

Galatians 5:17 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.


And finally this:

1 Corinthians 2:14 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


Keith I have submitted the aforementioned passages of Scripture in order that you may know even God expects us to apply "more than human logic" as you call it - into getting to know Him. That which is Spirit is Spirit - and we must worship Him in Spirit & Truth.

So when someone wants to dogmatically say that Jesus is a man - then I believe it needs to be challenged with Scripture. Men often apply "human logic" to things that are Spiritual - and they fail miserably every time.

Saying things like Jesus got His "Y chromosome" from God the Father - and His DNA from Mary are simply statements that are untrue, and certainly could lead to the potential of having folk very misinformed. Saying that Jesus is 100% man is very much in error too, in my very humble opinion.

This is what I do know.......Jesus is GOD. GOD is SPIRIT. There is nothing in this Universe that can contain Him. Jesus created Everything. He will someday Return. He will Reign - and when He has destroyed the last enemy (Death) He will hand the Kingdom to God the Father - so that God may be ALL in ALL.

Jesus is the ONLY GOD we will ever see and know - and this is throughout Eternity.
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:28 pm

Colossians 1:15-20
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Containing implies a container, a thing that has limits on what it can contain. You and I have deposits of the Holy Spirit within us not the fullness. If we view humans as containers, the limitations on the contents might not be based upon space and size. It might be based upon the amount of corruption in the container. For example: a coffee cup that is cracked and leaks has lost its integrity. While it might hold dirt without leaking, coffee is going to leak out the crack.

It might be that fullness has to do with being able to hold the total amount not just the deposit.

Keith
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:24 pm

Another verse describing Jesus as a man.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, [n]earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.

One of the points Mr. Baldy has made in this thread is: how can flesh contain God?
I don't think the "fullness" of God dwelling in Christ carries the same meaning as the "entirety" of God dwelt in Christ.
I think this because Jesus referred to the Father in Heaven knowing things Jesus did not know during his visitation, particularly the timing of Jesus' return. This means that while the fullness of God dwelt in Christ, the entirety of God did not.

In the passage above, we see two (2) Adams, both described as "man"; but, one is from the ground and one is from Heaven. We also know Jesus taught that we are to be born again lest we cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. We also see there is a sequencing. First comes flesh, second comes spiritual. Thus is the necessity to be born again, a second time, of the spiritual. So, we have two types of men, one earthly, one spiritual. Both have flesh and blood while here on earth. But the spiritual man concentrates on what is unseen while the earthly man focuses on what is seen here and about. Nevertheless, both are "man" as described in the verse above.

Keith
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:51 am

A wine glass may not hold the entire contents of the bottle; yet, the wine's fullness is found in each glass.

Keith
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:28 pm

keithareilly wrote:I don't think the "fullness" of God dwelling in Christ carries the same meaning as the "entirety" of God dwelt in Christ.


This is where you and I most Definitely Disagree.

Fullness and Entirety are synonymous.

Scripture is very clear. When you see Jesus - you have seen the Father.(John 14:9)
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Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:52 pm

Mr Baldy wrote,
Scripture is very clear. When you see Jesus - you have seen the Father.(John 14:9)


Agreed
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