Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:08 pm

Hello All,

I have heard many theories about Jesus. From the Christian aspect, I have often heard that Jesus is/was 100% God and 100% man - but I have never found anywhere in Scripture where Jesus ever claimed to be 100% man - but He did claim to be God.

From the Non-Christian aspects - I have heard, and also have learned that many claim that Jesus was not God. And also from the perspective of False Cults and/or False Denominations - who further deny the Deity of Jesus; either in His Fullness, or Essence as God Almighty - claim He was "A god"; or "A good man" or "Good Prophet/Messenger of God". They say He cannot be Both.

So, can anyone provide with Scripture of course, where Jesus ever claimed to be both 100% God & 100% man?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:10 am

Hi Mr Baldy,

I find this post a bit confusing. For example, to even try to find scripture where Jesus claims to be 100% man is pointless since He (and us) would be denying His deity. There is scripture, however, where Jesus calls Himself "I Am" which words are the same that God used to identify Himself. (John 8:58) Also proof of His deity and oneness with the Father is when He told Phillip that he who has seen Him has seen the Father. (John 14:9)

I can appreciate the objections by non-believers to these truths as they do not see with the same spiritual eyes and understanding as believers. Even so, the death and resurrection of Jesus proves His human/divine natures and according to scripture He appeared to over 500 following his resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:6)

Hopefully, I provided some useful answers.... :wink:
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:04 am

Mr Baldy,
Can you prove that you're "100% born again"?
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 879
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Exit40 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:14 am

Would you accept the phrase 'Son of man' as whom Jesus referred to himself as fully man ? There are hundreds of verses where this phrase is used, many of those refer to Jesus. Here are a few which may answer your question...

[Mat 12:8 KJV] 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

[Mat 20:28 KJV] 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
[Jhn 3:13 KJV] 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
[Jhn 5:27 KJV] 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[Luk 10:22 KJV] 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].


Do a search of the surrounding verses for context. Hope this helps.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8849
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:37 am

Mr. Baldy how can you prove you are a human being?

Percentages aside, Jesus was born as a human, to a human mother, he grew up as a human, He lived as a human, walked as a human, talked as a human, he was a human. He had both human DNA and divine DNA, He was both human and God. We like to put percentages on it, but scripture doesn't do so. He fully lived as a human being while here on earth, yet He also fully shared in His divine nature as well. He was fully God's son, and fully Mary's son, a descendant of David.


RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:57 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Hi Mr Baldy,

I find this post a bit confusing. For example, to even try to find scripture where Jesus claims to be 100% man is pointless since He (and us) would be denying His deity. There is scripture, however, where Jesus calls Himself "I Am" which words are the same that God used to identify Himself. (John 8:58) Also proof of His deity and oneness with the Father is when He told Phillip that he who has seen Him has seen the Father. (John 14:9)

I can appreciate the objections by non-believers to these truths as they do not see with the same spiritual eyes and understanding as believers. Even so, the death and resurrection of Jesus proves His human/divine natures and according to scripture He appeared to over 500 following his resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:6)

Hopefully, I provided some useful answers.... :wink:


Interesting response Abiding - but in the latter half of what you said, you indicate that "Jesus proves His human/divine natures" in His death and resurrection; however, please consider what I have asked regarding to His "Dual Nature" that should be analogized. Is He both 100% God and 100% man? This is the question I am trying to bring resolve to.

I have my own opinion however, I would like to see how Believers respond.

The reason why I am asking this question, is because I heard a Preacher mention this on the radio - and quite frankly, it caused me to think - and subsequently pose this question to this forum.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:58 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:,Can you prove that you're "100% born again"?


I don't need to. I know that I am :mrgreen:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:07 pm

Exit40 wrote:Would you accept the phrase 'Son of man' as whom Jesus referred to himself as fully man ? There are hundreds of verses where this phrase is used, many of those refer to Jesus. Here are a few which may answer your question...

[Mat 12:8 KJV] 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

[Mat 20:28 KJV] 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
[Jhn 3:13 KJV] 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
[Jhn 5:27 KJV] 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[Luk 10:22 KJV] 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].


Do a search of the surrounding verses for context. Hope this helps.

God Bless You

David


Excellent Response David!

However, can you use exactly what you have presented to edify this Body of Christ and elaborate on why you chose the aforementioned passages of Scripture that you have provided?

I think that what you have presented is so excellent that I want to learn why you have presented it the way that you have. Of course you do know that it leads to a wealth of understanding as well?

David I mention these things because many, say that they Believe; however, they don't know Him - and how can anyone truly worship what they don't know - or in other words have a Relationship with? This is not about "understanding God" but knowing Him - and eventually coming to an understanding having a personal relationship with who He IS.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:16 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Mr. Baldy how can you prove you are a human being?

Percentages aside, Jesus was born as a human, to a human mother, he grew up as a human, He lived as a human, walked as a human, talked as a human, he was a human. He had both human DNA and divine DNA, He was both human and God. We like to put percentages on it, but scripture doesn't do so. He fully lived as a human being while here on earth, yet He also fully shared in His divine nature as well. He was fully God's son, and fully Mary's son, a descendant of David.


RT


Hi RT,

I hope that your question about me proving myself as a human being was rhetorical :mrgreen: - even if it wasn't for the sake of edifying the Body of Christ, I will assume that it was.

I ALMOST like the rest of your response - but you mentioned something that has caused me to have some concern.

You said that Jesus "had both human DNA and divine DNA".

Fact of the matter is, you cannot prove either.

First - Jesus was NEVER created. Second, there is no such thing as "divine DNA". That would be an oxymoron.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Exit40 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:28 am

Mr Baldy wrote:However, can you use exactly what you have presented to edify this Body of Christ and elaborate on why you chose the aforementioned passages of Scripture that you have provided?


Sure Mr B. First of all, I personally BELIEVE Jesus is both God and man. And I believe the term 'Son of Man' refers to Jesus's humanity as being 100%. The only possible offspring of man ... is man ... so that takes care of the 100% human portion in answer to your question.

[Mat 12:8 KJV] 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Who could be this Lord except God Himself, as He is the one that created the Sabbath through Christ.

[Mat 20:28 KJV] 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus came to be a minister of both the Law and the Prophets. And also to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven through those, by His sacrifice on the Cross, as the Law required and the Prophets wrote of.

[Jhn 3:13 KJV] 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

This one is a bit tough to answer. Jesus is speaking here, so I refer back to the preceding Scripture for help.

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

I rely almost totally on my personal Faith for this answer. It is something I know, but cannot answer, as it is unlawful to speak of. However, these passages are in reference to being born again.

[Jhn 5:27 KJV] 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Here Jesus is saying He has the power to give eternal life as God has given Him to do perfectly His Will, as the Christ/Man, once again according to the Law and Prophets, as His Father is God. He states in context of two Resurrections, one of life and one of damnation. This is the Judgement he is referring to.

[Luk 10:22 KJV] 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

Here Jesus Himself is saying God is His Father, making Him 100% God, and according to other Scriptures Jesus is filled with the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, as He was filled at His Baptism/Anointing. He also states He will be revealed as such to those whom He chooses. Those He chooses will know He is fully God, 100%, and fully Man, 100%, the 'revelation' being a rebirth in the Spirit into Christ, a birth from out of Death into life.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8849
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:13 am

Exit40 wrote:And I believe the term 'Son of Man' refers to Jesus's humanity as being 100%. The only possible offspring of man ... is man ... so that takes care of the 100% human portion in answer to your question.


:butbutbut:

Jesus was born of a virgin without a human father. Not your average human offspring...thus His very birth was miraculous.

Isa 7:14  "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 

This human took on flesh but He was God.

Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father...

Php 2:6  who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 
Php 2:7  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 
Php 2:8  Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:09 pm

Mr Baldy,

I am of the view that Jesus is 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
Just as I am 100 percent my fathers son and 100 percent my mother's son.
The amount of DNA within me from my mother or father is irrelevant.
To be less than 100 percent my father's son I would have to have essence from another father.
To be less than 100 percent my mother's son I would have to have essence from another mother.

Just like the rest of us, Jesus is 100 percent his father's son and 100 percent his mother's son.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:49 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Mr. Baldy how can you prove you are a human being?

Percentages aside, Jesus was born as a human, to a human mother, he grew up as a human, He lived as a human, walked as a human, talked as a human, he was a human. He had both human DNA and divine DNA, He was both human and God. We like to put percentages on it, but scripture doesn't do so. He fully lived as a human being while here on earth, yet He also fully shared in His divine nature as well. He was fully God's son, and fully Mary's son, a descendant of David.


RT


Hi RT,

I hope that your question about me proving myself as a human being was rhetorical :mrgreen: - even if it wasn't for the sake of edifying the Body of Christ, I will assume that it was.

I ALMOST like the rest of your response - but you mentioned something that has caused me to have some concern.

You said that Jesus "had both human DNA and divine DNA".

Fact of the matter is, you cannot prove either.

First - Jesus was NEVER created. Second, there is no such thing as "divine DNA". That would be an oxymoron.


Hi Mr Baldy!

Such an interesting subject you have raised. Just have to join you in the discussion. So here it goes.

You said, “Jesus was NEVER created. “ and you are partly right. He was not created in the spiritual sense. He has always been God.

However, in the physical sense, i.e., His body of flesh, He was. With divine DNA no less.

Actually if we stop to think about it. All human DNA is divine. It didn’t come from “slime or the primordial soup” unless one believes in evolution.

God created DNA when He made Adam. And Adam's God-given divine DNA has been replicated to this day.

Back to the second Adam and how His body of flesh was created.

The Holy Spirit created the 23 chromosomes (which included the Y chromosome that determined that Christ would have a male body of flesh) that are normally supplied by a human father to join the 23 chromosomes that come from a human mother , in this case Mary, to form/create Christ’s boy of flesh.

Any biology majors out there? Jump in. I know only enough to get me in trouble. :wink:

Blessings,

sonbeam

PS. By the way Mr. Baldy, do you believe in the creation account. Just wondering. Since you wrote the phrase, "it cannot be proven."
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:28 am

Mr Baldy,

Just a few thoughts on the word "OR" as in 'Jesus - God Or Man'

The statement "Jesus - God or Man" is a true statement under each of the following conditions.
1) Jesus is man
2) Jesus is God
3) Jesus is both God and man

The only circumstance the statement is false is if Jesus if neither God nor man.
Interestingly, the word "And" is a subset of the "Or" condition.

Typically when we read and think "Or" we read and think "Either Or" not "Or".
A common mistake; not that I think you are making that mistake.
But, it is helpful to remember "Or" is a set of multiple possibilities.

The truth is of a statement is not a weight or percentage; truth and falsehood are binary.
A statement is either True or False under specified conditions.
For example:

The following 2 statements are true for positive integers:
1) 100 is greater than 10
2) 1000 is greater than 10

However, the following conclusion is FALSE.
Because 1000 is greater than 100, "1000 is greater than 10 " is more true than "100 is greater than 10".

The idea that Jesus is a certain percent God and a certain percent man is not logical.
If Jesus is man then, "Jesus is a man" is a true statement.
If Jesus is God then, "Jesus is God" is a true statement.

Neither statement is more or less true than the other.


Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:11 am

Mr. Baldy,

Hebrews 4:15 NASB
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


This is the verse I use to remind myself that Jesus was a man, 100 percent a man.
If Jesus can be tempted "in all things as we are" then He experienced exactly what we experience to the fullness of what we experience.
This experience with the fullness of man is part of what qualifies Him as "The High Priest" of man;
Get It? "The High Priest of Man", the best Adam of Adam's kind.

I can think of no better argument that exemplifies the fullness of His humanness.


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:53 am

My conclusion is that Jesus is both God and man in one. The fact that He hungered, wept, expressed sorrow and anger, etc. is common to the human nature. The fact that He healed the sick, raised the dead, and forgave sinners reflects His Deity. ETA: No human could walk on water.... :wink:

It's one of those truths like the Trinity that is difficult (if not impossible) for us to comprehend.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:13 am

Jesus is both God and Man in one. I agree, 100 percent God, 100 percent man.

If I place a lamp and a box of candy inside a package,
Does the lamp somehow become less than 100 percent a lamp?
Does the box of candy somehow become less than 100 percent a box of candy?

Are identical twins identical? Or are they different human beings?

Is a woman late with child less or more human?

Does the deposit of God, the Holy Spirit, living inside me make me somehow less human?


Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:28 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Jesus was born of a virgin without a human father.


Probably the best response I have read thus far. Thank you for this Abiding......

If I may, here is something that I would like you - and others who have read your response to think about regarding the Subject of this Thread:

John 1-5 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4) In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5) The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


Now, of course the aforementioned passages of Scripture mention specifically about the Deity of Jesus - and how ALL THINGS were created by Him.

With that being said........now take a look at this:

Colossians 1:15-22 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21) And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22) yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach



Ok...........for those of you who are reading this - I just want you to know that I am attempted to illustrate a point; based on Scripture of course....

But based on what has been mentioned in the aforementioned passages of Scripture that I have provided, AND Abiding's response - I respectfully ask has a different perspective been placed on your thoughts in relation to the Subject of this Thread?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:35 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

Hebrews 4:15 NASB
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


This is the verse I use to remind myself that Jesus was a man, 100 percent a man.
If Jesus can be tempted "in all things as we are" then He experienced exactly what we experience to the fullness of what we experience.
This experience with the fullness of man is part of what qualifies Him as "The High Priest" of man;
Get It? "The High Priest of Man", the best Adam of Adam's kind.

I can think of no better argument that exemplifies the fullness of His humanness.


Keith


Good point Keith - but let me ask you this..............

How would you relate His Resurrection in being 100% God - and 100% man?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:08 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Hi Mr Baldy! Such an interesting subject you have raised. Just have to join you in the discussion. So here it goes. You said, “Jesus was NEVER created. “ and you are partly right. He was not created in the spiritual sense. He has always been God. However, in the physical sense, i.e., His body of flesh, He was. With divine DNA no less. Actually if we stop to think about it. All human DNA is divine. It didn’t come from “slime or the primordial soup” unless one believes in evolution. God created DNA when He made Adam. And Adam's God-given divine DNA has been replicated to this day. Back to the second Adam and how His body of flesh was created. The Holy Spirit created the 23 chromosomes (which included the Y chromosome that determined that Christ would have a male body of flesh) that are normally supplied by a human father to join the 23 chromosomes that come from a human mother , in this case Mary, to form/create Christ’s boy of flesh.


Hi Sonbeam,

Thank you for your response. I have embolden a portion of your aforementioned statement - as I would like to make my own comments to reflect on what you have mentioned. I hope that you don't mind :mrgreen:

First, if you'll please notice the passages of Scripture that I previously provided when I responded to a very important comment that Abiding made: John 1:1-5 & Colossians 1:15-22.

Now John 1:1-5 & Colossians 1:15-22 are VERY IMPORTANT passages of Scripture as it relates to the Deity of Christ, His Divine Nature; and his Overall Supremacy. It's important that you take notice of this, as I respond to your aforementioned comments.

So, you have mentioned the term "divine DNA" - as it relates to the "physical body" that Christ possessed - further implying that because He possessed this "physical body" that He had to be created. Well, Scripture wholeheartedly refutes your comments - and so do I.

To believe in what you are suggesting is to suggest that God created Himself. Well, that is completely debunked with Scripture that clearly states that Christ was NEVER CREATED - He always was. (John 1:1-5) You go on to mention about the 23 chromosomes that the "Holy Spirit created" to include the "Y" chromosome that "determined Christ would have a male body" in your analogy.

I'm sorry Sonbeam - and certainly with all respect..........you are totally WRONG.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:13 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:My conclusion is that Jesus is both God and man in one. The fact that He hungered, wept, expressed sorrow and anger, etc. is common to the human nature. The fact that He healed the sick, raised the dead, and forgave sinners reflects His Deity. ETA: No human could walk on water.... :wink:

It's one of those truths like the Trinity that is difficult (if not impossible) for us to comprehend.


Got ya thinking! :wink:

More to come!
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:18 pm

keithareilly wrote:The idea that Jesus is a certain percent God and a certain percent man is not logical. If Jesus is man then, "Jesus is a man" is a true statement. If Jesus is God then, "Jesus is God" is a true statement. Neither statement is more or less true than the other.


Now, you're getting hot Keith! :mrgreen:

Any changes from when you mentioned this:

keithareilly wrote:I am of the view that Jesus is 100 percent God and 100 percent man. Just as I am 100 percent my fathers son and 100 percent my mother's son. The amount of DNA within me from my mother or father is irrelevant.To be less than 100 percent my father's son I would have to have essence from another father. To be less than 100 percent my mother's son I would have to have essence from another mother. Just like the rest of us, Jesus is 100 percent his father's son and 100 percent his mother's son.


Just asking :wink:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:20 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Ok...........for those of you who are reading this - I just want you to know that I am attempted to illustrate a point; based on Scripture of course....

But based on what has been mentioned in the aforementioned passages of Scripture that I have provided, AND Abiding's response - I respectfully ask has a different perspective been placed on your thoughts in relation to the Subject of this Thread?


Just want to interject an important point here, Mr Baldy, regarding this scripture from Colossians you posted...

19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,


The Commentaries I have in E-Sword (Barnes, Gill, Clarke, and Robertson's) all agree the word "Father's" was/is not in the original manuscripts. The insertion of that word changes the intended meaning of Christ's preeminence in reconciling all things to Himself to erroneously implying that the fullness of the Godhead depended on the Father. In other words, the majesty, power, and goodness of God is manifested in and by Christ Jesus, and thus by him the Father reconciles all things to himself.

Hope that's clear as it's a bit confusing. If not, you might check the commentaries available on line for a better clarification.

I also hope I haven't changed the focus of your post or complicated it.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:53 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:The Commentaries I have in E-Sword (Barnes, Gill, Clarke, and Robertson's) all agree the word "Father's" was/is not in the original manuscripts. The insertion of that word changes the intended meaning of Christ's preeminence in reconciling all things to Himself to erroneously implying that the fullness of the Godhead depended on the Father. In other words, the majesty, power, and goodness of God is manifested in and by Christ Jesus, and thus by him the Father reconciles all things to himself.


Abiding,

I don't know what references you are using - but I wholeheartedly reject them. Namely if they are implying that the rest of the very reliable "Various" translations of Scripture are in error - as they all say the SAME. Who are these that you mention, and where do they come up with their logic?

Scripture is very, very CLEAR about the Deity of Jesus!

Jesus Himself - while in His humanity explicitly stated that the FATHER is Greater than Himself (John 14:28). Hence the Subject matter of this thread - and what I believe is leading to a very comprehensive study thereof.

Who are these people - and their nonsensical commentaries that they mention?


What say they about this passage of Scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 - American Standard Version (ASV)

24) Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign, till He hath put all His enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27) For, He put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject all things unto Him. 28) And when all things have been subjected unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to Him that did subject all things unto Him, that God may be ALL in ALL.


And this:

Philippians 2:5-8 - American Standard Version (ASV)

5) Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8) and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.



And finally this:

John 14:7-9 - American Standard Version (ASV)

7) If ye had known Me, ye would have known My Father also: from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him. 8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?



Perhaps the reading and reliability of Scripture is in order - and not "commentaries" of mere men?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:44 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Scripture is very, very CLEAR about the Deity of Jesus!


Neither I nor the commentaries I mentioned dispute the deity of Jesus. Just the lack of the word "Father's" in Col. 2:19.

Jesus Himself - while in His humanity explicitly stated that the FATHER is Greater than Himself (John 14:28). Hence the Subject matter of this thread - and what I believe is leading to a very comprehensive study thereof.


Yes, in His humanity, the Father is greater. The deity of both are equal...there is no hierarchy in the Trinity.

9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father[/u][/color][/size]?


Yes, Jesus is the visible God in the form of flesh.

Perhaps the reading and reliability of Scripture is in order - and not "commentaries" of mere men?


If you don't like the commentaries, the word is in italics in the NASB, KJV, MKJV, RV, and the YLT versions of the Bible. You can research the use of italics but while some of the newer translations have eliminated the use of them, they indicate the absence of the particular word in the earliest manuscripts.

My observation was not made to complicate, but merely to be certain that we are not interpreting that verse to imply a hierarchy in the Trinity. I don't always agree with everything in commentaries, but when I verified that italicized word in the 5-6 versions I mentioned, I found the word Father italicized in them as well.

Perhaps since that seemed to anger or annoy you, you might provide your understanding of that one verse.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:28 pm

Mr. Baldy,

I am not certain for what you are looking.

Each of what I wrote is a different perspective in an attempt to discuss the topic from various points of view.

Genesis 1:26-27
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [ak]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Colossians 1:15
15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Man is the image of God. For Christ to become a human, He must become an image of God.
Think in terms of a motion picture. Christ is the [image] projection of God into the mortal realm.
Today, people play online games and setup an Icon to represent themselves.
If that icon were an animated image of self, containing all attributes of one's self, then that Icon would be the projection of oneself into the game.
Christ is God's Icon of His fullness in the mortal realm.

An alternative perspective is: Christ in human form is what God looks like when viewed from a 4 dimensional space-time perspective.

Mr. Baldy, I need some more direct and specific questions from you in order to address what you wish to address as I do not yet know you well enough to anticipate where you are going with this.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:19 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Neither I nor the commentaries I mentioned dispute the deity of Jesus. Just the lack of the word "Father's" in Col. 2:19.


Actually the word "Father" is in Colossians 1:19 - (Not Col. 2:19 as you have mentioned above). However, What difference does it make if the Father is or is not mentioned? The Father, Son, and Spirit are in Unity.
One more thing to consider is - When Jesus was here on Earth; visible in Flesh - He said: "Before Abraham was, I AM".
(John 8:58)

Abiding in His Word wrote:Yes, Jesus is the visible God in the form of flesh.


You must remember, Jesus was NOT always Flesh. So, is He currently in Heaven now in the Flesh?

Abiding in His Word wrote:My observation was not made to complicate, but merely to be certain that we are not interpreting that verse to imply a hierarchy in the Trinity.


Your aforementioned comment is one of the reasons why I wanted to delve into Scripture and solicit ideas about Jesus. I think as more Scriptural information comes in, we "may" just learn exactly what you have mentioned - in that there is "on hierarchy in the Trinity". No man can completely understand the Godhead - yet many try to put God in a box to understand Him. They want to call Jesus "The Second Person in the Trinity" or "The Second Member of the Godhead"; or "He is 100% man and 100% God" - Statements like this do establish a "hierarchy", and I personally believe it's wrong.

The point I am attempting to illustrate is that how can Jesus be anything other than God?

He had a Flesh body - but nevertheless STILL God.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:29 am

keithareilly wrote:Man is the image of God. For Christ to become a human, He must become an image of God.


Are you suggesting that Christ is human :humm:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:18 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Your aforementioned comment is one of the reasons why I wanted to delve into Scripture and solicit ideas about Jesus. I think as more Scriptural information comes in, we "may" just learn exactly what you have mentioned - in that there is "on hierarchy in the Trinity". No man can completely understand the Godhead - yet many try to put God in a box to understand Him. They want to call Jesus "The Second Person in the Trinity" or "The Second Member of the Godhead"; or "He is 100% man and 100% God" - Statements like this do establish a "hierarchy", and I personally believe it's wrong.


Mr Baldy, you might not be aware of the recent prevalence of the teaching that...not only was Jesus (the human) subordinate to God, but He is "eternally subordinate."

A quick Google search with the words, "Eternal Subordination of the Son" will show it's dangerous teachings infiltrating the church, it's origin and the rebuttals. Flowery words are used in an effort to explain the equality, but they fail miserably and promote a hierarchy in the Trinity that is eternal.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Exit40 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:32 am

Let's not forget, God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden. The word precarnate is used of Him here, but who is being referred to, the Father or the Son ?

Well, it is all three of the Trinity. We can't separate one out as exclusive, but can only speak of one aspect when speaking of God. Yes, Jesus was in human form, the reason He called Himself the Son of Man. What else could that mean ? Jesus being fully man means just that. He is, rather was, human. Jesus the Man was killed, is now glorified, according to the Law, after His Resurrection. He is what we will become, but will be greater than us as we will just be a part of His Body. He is the Head. Go figure that one out. Ever hear the sound of many waters ? Or the voice of many speaking in unison ?

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8849
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:27 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Man is the image of God. For Christ to become a human, He must become an image of God.


Are you suggesting that Christ is human :humm:


Yes, of course. It is why He is our High Priest. He was not always human. He chose to become human.

John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 And the Word became flesh, and [a]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [b]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word became flesh. It does not say: the Word "cloaked" himself with flesh. It says: He became flesh.
This describes a transformation, not the putting on of a garment. This should not be surprising as we will all one day be transformed from flesh and blood into something that can inherit the Kingdom of God. If God can transform from what can inherit the Kingdom of God into flesh, then we should be confident that He can transform flesh and blood into what inherits.

John 17:5 NASB
5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

When Jesus became human He had left His glory behind and no longer had it while here, during His visitation.
Did He give up that glory when all things were created through him or later when He became flesh? I do not know.
What I do know is that it was time for Him to get it back.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:38 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Hi Mr Baldy! Such an interesting subject you have raised. Just have to join you in the discussion. So here it goes. You said, “Jesus was NEVER created. “ and you are partly right. He was not created in the spiritual sense. He has always been God. However, in the physical sense, i.e., His body of flesh, He was. With divine DNA no less. Actually if we stop to think about it. All human DNA is divine. It didn’t come from “slime or the primordial soup” unless one believes in evolution. God created DNA when He made Adam. And Adam's God-given divine DNA has been replicated to this day. Back to the second Adam and how His body of flesh was created. The Holy Spirit created the 23 chromosomes (which included the Y chromosome that determined that Christ would have a male body of flesh) that are normally supplied by a human father to join the 23 chromosomes that come from a human mother , in this case Mary, to form/create Christ’s boy of flesh.


Hi Sonbeam,

Thank you for your response. I have embolden a portion of your aforementioned statement - as I would like to make my own comments to reflect on what you have mentioned. I hope that you don't mind :mrgreen:

First, if you'll please notice the passages of Scripture that I previously provided when I responded to a very important comment that Abiding made: John 1:1-5 & Colossians 1:15-22.

Now John 1:1-5 & Colossians 1:15-22 are VERY IMPORTANT passages of Scripture as it relates to the Deity of Christ, His Divine Nature; and his Overall Supremacy. It's important that you take notice of this, as I respond to your aforementioned comments.

So, you have mentioned the term "divine DNA" - as it relates to the "physical body" that Christ possessed - further implying that because He possessed this "physical body" that He had to be created. Well, Scripture wholeheartedly refutes your comments - and so do I.

To believe in what you are suggesting is to suggest that God created Himself. Well, that is completely debunked with Scripture that clearly states that Christ was NEVER CREATED - He always was. (John 1:1-5) You go on to mention about the 23 chromosomes that the "Holy Spirit created" to include the "Y" chromosome that "determined Christ would have a male body" in your analogy.

I'm sorry Sonbeam - and certainly with all respect..........you are totally WRONG.


Oh no Mr. Baldy, with all due respect . . . . . . . . . You don’t get off that easy. :umno: :grin:

I see you didn’t quite grasp the distinction I made between the spiritual and the material nature of Jesus Christ while He walked this earth.

So please explain to me why you think I’m totally wrong about Jesus’ physical nature having a beginning or creation point since here is what you said to Abiding in a previous post:

Abiding:

“Yes, Jesus is the visible God in the form of flesh.”


Mr. Baldy:

You must remember, Jesus was NOT always Flesh. So, is He currently in Heaven now in the Flesh?


And I’m highlighting a portion of your above statement, if you don’t mind, because it is in agreement with my comment about Jesus’ physical nature having a beginning or creation point.

Mr. Baldy, how about you quit being coy with us and let us know what you really believe on the subject of this thread?

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:17 am

John 5:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

1 Corinthinans 15:35-39
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

Corn is still corn in the seed form, and the plant form.
And, we are still human after our seed (flesh) dies and we take on our resurrected form.

Christ became human and was resurrected. His resurrection did not require the loss of His humanness.
Remember, we, too, are God's children in human form and we will still be humans after our resurrection.

Is He still human after His ascension? I think so because of His role of High Priest. It would be wrong to assume that He is not still human just because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Humans in the resurrected form can indeed inherit the Kingdom of God. And all humans shall be resurrected.

Keith

Edited after more thought
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Jericho on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:30 am

keithareilly wrote:Is He still human after His ascension? I do not know. But it would be wrong to assume that He is not human just because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Flesh and blood in the resurrected form can indeed inherit the Kingdom of God. And all humans shall be resurrected.

Keith


I think it's of interest to note that after his resurrection he said he was flesh and bone (Luke 24:39), and not flesh and blood. I'm not sure exactly what all that implies, but its interesting distinction none the less.

Here's a question, why did Jesus come to the earth the way he did? Being born as a baby? He could have have come fully incarnate if he wanted to, the same way the angels in Genesis 18-19 did. But he chose not to, why?
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4403
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:00 am

Jericho,

I would guess He was born of woman to experience everything we all experience for the purpose of His High Priest role.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:12 am

Jericho wrote:Here's a question, why did Jesus come to the earth the way he did? Being born as a baby? He could have have come fully incarnate if he wanted to, the same way the angels in Genesis 18-19 did. But he chose not to, why?


Hi Jericho,

Just a guess, but I'm thinking His ancestry had to be traced back to the promise of a Savior made in Genesis as the seed of the woman. Genealogy was religiously kept in the OT.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:55 pm

keithareilly wrote:Christ became human and was resurrected. His resurrection did not require the loss of His humanness.


Pardon me Keith, but absolutely no where in Scripture will you ever read that "Christ became human."

The Word (Jesus) became Flesh. To say that He became human is to "read into Scripture". Furthermore, in His 'fleshly body' He walked on water. Can you do that?

You go on to mention that "His resurrection did not require the loss of His Humanness."

Well I find that quite interesting in that Christ is God - He is not a man. He was not Flesh in the Beginning. So with Him creating EVERYTHING that there is - one could draw the conclusion that the very body He possessed, since it was Flesh also had to be created by Himself. Jesus is the ONLY Creator that Scripture ever mentions. So I disagree with your analogy.

keithareilly wrote:Is He still human after His ascension? I think so because of His role of High Priest. It would be wrong to assume that He is not still human just because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Humans in the resurrected form can indeed inherit the Kingdom of God. And all humans shall be resurrected.


Let me say this........when Jesus was resurrected, He never referred to His resurrected body having "flesh & blood" - but "flesh & bone". You have mentioned High Priest and your are correct. However the "Role" of the Son as being High Priest is not an Eternal Role. The necessity of Jesus being Savior will have come to it's End when He has Ruled & Reigned and destroyed the last enemy - which is Death. Then He hands the Kingdom to God the Father - so that God may be ALL in All. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:05 pm

Sonbeam wrote:I see you didn’t quite grasp the distinction I made between the spiritual and the material nature of Jesus Christ while He walked this earth. So please explain to me why you think I’m totally wrong about Jesus’ physical nature having a beginning or creation point


Hi Sonbeam,

I understood you totally.......

I just wholeheartedly disagree with you even implying that Jesus had a beginning. HE did NOT.

Sonbeam, in the body that Jesus possessed - He said "Before Abraham was I AM". Do you not understand that He was saying that He was GOD?

You want to attribute His Fleshly Body to DNA - a DNA (if you can even call it that) by the way which He created.
HE and HE alone created EVERTHING..........so again, I wholeheartedly disagree with your point.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:15 pm

Jericho wrote:I think it's of interest to note that after his resurrection he said he was flesh and bone (Luke 24:39), and not flesh and blood. I'm not sure exactly what all that implies, but its interesting distinction none the less.


Great point!

Jericho, let me say that I was so very pleased when you plainly admitted that you don't know "what all that implies".
This is why in my very humble opinion - Christians should get their thinking caps on, and delve deeper into Scripture, in order that they may develop a deeper relationship with Christ.

Now, an additional question to consider is: Was He resurrected as a man or as God?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:46 pm

Mr. Baldy wrote...
Pardon me Keith, but absolutely no where in Scripture will you ever read that "Christ became human."


John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 And the Word became flesh, and [a]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.1 Corinthinans 15:35-39

1 Corinthinans 15:35-39
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

The Word became human, not animal, not bird, not fish. Christ became human.

Many interpret became as "cloaked" or "clothed".
If I dressed from head to toe in wool, it does not mean I became a sheep.
The Word became flesh describes Christ transforming into human flesh, not clothing or cloaking Himself.

Keith
Edited.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:45 pm

keithareilly wrote:The Word became human
keithareilly wrote:Christ became human.


The aforementioned is NOT what Scripture says. Scripture states: "The Word became FLESH"

Keith here are a few things to consider........

1) God is not a man that he should lie -(Numbers 23:13)
2) God is Spirit - (John 4:24)
3) Jesus NEVER sinned - (Hebrews 4:1)
4) Jesus Walked on Water - (Matthew 14:25)
5) Jesus in the Flesh stated - Before Abraham was "I AM"- (John 8-48)
6) Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life - (John 11:25)
7) Jesus had the authority to take His own Life; and to Resurrect Himself - (John 10-18)
8) Jesus had the ability to directly communicate with Satan - ( Matthew 4:1-11; Luke 22:31)
9) Jesus had the authority to call down 12 legions of angels - (Matthew 26:53)
10) Jesus had the authority to make rocks cry out; and turn stones into bread - (Luke 19:40; Matthew 4:3)

Now Keith - I say to you.....WHAT Human can do any of those aforementioned things?

Jesus was NOT Human - nor did He ever Claim to be anything other than God. Yes He had the Flesh as a human - but to say that he was human it stretching it a bit too far in my opinion.

Just one more thing to consider....even Angels appear in human form (Hebrews 13:2) - does that make them human?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:13 pm

Acts 17:30-31 NASB
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness [v]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

This verse talks about the Man, Jesus, who will judge the world, who was raised from the dead.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:02 am

keithareilly wrote:Acts 17:30-31 NASB
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness [v]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

This verse talks about the Man, Jesus, who will judge the world, who was raised from the dead.

Keith


Hi Keith,

Thank you for that passage of Scripture. Now, let me ask you this:

We know that from Scripture God is Spirit. We further know that Jesus was with God in the beginning, and was God. We know that Jesus created EVERYTHING - whether it be visible or invisible. We have identified that Jesus did not always have a Flesh Body.

We should also know that the Entire Universe cannot contain Him - (2 Chronicles 2:6; 1 Kings 8:27). So this very "Man" that you have brought up in Scripture that will Judge the World in Righteousness - would you say that the very body He is in had to be created? After all, it is Flesh.....

So we know that Jesus - being God had no beginning; has no end; and is EVERLASTING - how can you identify Him as human - when the very fleshly body He was in cannot contain Him?

Now in mentioning what I have - I suggest that the verse of Scripture that you presented; when the term "Man" is used, it is used as an "idiom" and not a manifestation of who Jesus is.

In closing...........

Colossians 2:9-10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10) and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority


"Bodily Form" - doesn't say He is Human. Just something to think about :wink:
Last edited by Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 am

Sonbeam wrote:Mr. Baldy, how about you quit being coy with us and let us know what you really believe on the subject of this thread?


Hi Sonbeam,

I was hoping to extract some additional ideas about the Subject Matter of this Thread. I think as more ideas come in, it will develop and provide some knowledge on who Christ is.

Right now, and not to be dogmatic about my views, the more and more I read Scripture, I'm really starting to believe that Jesus will not always have a Fleshly Body. Even His role as Savior I think I can prove is temporary. Not only that, I believe that since Scripture mentions that the "All the Fullness of Deity dwells in Him in bodily form" this will some day end as well. I believe that this will ALL End when He hands the Kingdom to God the Father - so that God may be ALL in All.

Take a look at this passage of Scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24) then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27) For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be All in All.


Sonbeam..........please read the aforementioned passages of Scripture very, very well for understanding. As you should see, this is a VERY powerful passage of Scripture.

Not only does this mention the order of resurrections - but the aforementioned passage of Scripture also mentions what appears to be a "limited role" of the Son......HOWEVER; We know from Scripture that:

Hebrews 1:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) But of the Son He says,


“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom
."


9)
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.


I find the aforementioned passage of Scripture simply AMAZING since 1 Corinthians 15:24 has identified Him handing the Kingdom over to God the Father.

Could this mean that it is JESUS who has multiple roles in the Godhead?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 1961
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:28 am

Mr. Baldy,

My next response will take some time and thought.
It requires research, facts, organization of my own thoughts and ideas, then subsequent verification to take the seed and bring it to fruition. Then presenting them in an organized terse manner.

Keith

Post Voided -K
Last edited by keithareilly on Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:23 am

Mr Baldy,

After reading your post to Sonbeam, I am wondering why you do not accept Christ as man when you yourself posted another verse describing him as man. I am at a loss as to how to discuss this topic with you. You ask how can a man contain God then post that the fullness of God dwelt in bodily form. You say Christ cannot be a man then post scriptures that describe him as man. I am now at a loss as to how to continue this discussion.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:52 pm

post deleted
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:17 pm

Let me share where I think we are running into problems and a bit of confusion. I think if we try to separate the Trinity into "roles," we are overlooking the importance of the unity, agreement, purpose, and indivisibility, etc. among the members. So here's an effort on my part to include the Trinity throughout Biblical history without excluding the other members...as that creates "roles" that on the surface seem to imply each member if "taking turns" ministering. In fact, all are present at any given time but ministering under a variety of names, characteristics, specific dealings, etc. with a variety of persons to whom they are influencing.

For example:

Early In the OT, the Trinity manifests itself in unity with God/Yahweh/Adonai/El Shaddai, I AM, etc. in covenant relationship with a people surrounded by pagan nations. God (the Trinity) exhibits preeminence in establishing a nation who will worship the One, True, God rather than the idols of the surrounding nations. The God member of the Trinity during this season, speaks through the prophets regarding the promise of a Savior from the time of Genesis.

Early in the NT, the Trinity manifests itself in the birth of the promised Savior/Messiah/Jesus/Son of God/Son of Man/the "I AM". This member of the Trinity's focus is the salvation of lost sheep of Israel and later includes the Gentiles. In unity with the other members of the Trinity, the Savior agrees to being born of a virgin who is overshadowed by the Holy Spirit under the power of the Most High. See how all three members are in union, agreement and present in the fulfillment of over 300 prophecies relating to His birth, death, and resurrection.
..."The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God As God had preeminence in the OT, Jesus is central in the NT but provides evidence that He is God and they are One..."He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9

Later in the NT, Just as God spoke through the prophets about the coming of the Savior and a new covenant, Jesus speaks to the disciples about the coming of the Holy Spirit who will have preeminence in convicting the world of sin, providing gifts and power to the church which will be formed, and tells them it will be for their benefit that He is going away so the focus of this member of the Trinity will be power to spread the gospel to all nations. The Holy Spirit is active in the OT in providing power as well....i.e. ..." Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them." 1Sam. 10:10

___________________________________

I think this is a reasonable way to look at the unity of the Trinity since at the very beginning the Trinity is reflected in this: ".... "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...."

All three members of the Trinity are mentioned throughout the Bible as being One with the other members and deity of each is recorded while the individual description changes from time to time; i.e.

God is described as a Rock, Tower of Strength, One who gave birth to the House of Israel, One who carried them and nursed them.

Jesus is described as the Light of the World, the Chief Cornerstone, the Son of God and Son of Man, Prince of Peace.

The Holy Spirit is described as Comforter, Teacher, Intercessor, Advocate.

But All three members as well as their ministries are in union with one another in their deity.

Hope that makes some sense....
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28616
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:34 pm

Jesus is called the son is he not? And He calls God His father does he not? Throughout the NT Jesus refers to God as "my Father".

Here is just one example:
Matthew 11:27
27All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

[/quote]

As others have noted Jesus appeared in the flesh, as a child, who was physically born to the woman Mary. Don't think I really have to explain where babies come from here, but it takes a mother and a father to "create" a child. Mary was the mother and God was the Father, via the Holy Spirit:

Matthew 1:18
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.


Luke 1:30–35
30The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.


It is because Mary was pregnant BY the Holy Spirit, that the "Child" is called the Son of God, because God is His Father.
I think the part that causes confusion here, is that Jesus existed before He was born as a child on earth.

Philippians explains this a bit:

Philippians 2:5–7
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.


The passage says, that Jesus emptied Himself, He gave up His equality with God and became a servant, being MADE in the likeness of men. How this practically happened we can only guess, how did Jesus go from equality with God in heaven to being joined with Mary's DNA in her womb? Only God knows the mechanics of that.

But we do know why He did it, the book of Hebrews tells us. If Jesus was not in any way human then His sacrifice would not have been legitimate and we humans would not have had a redeemer:

Hebrews 2:14–18
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
.


Hebrews 9:13–18
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.


Jesus Had to be born as a man with flesh and blood so that He might inaugurate the New Covenant, so He partook of flesh and blood, He had to BE MADE like His brethren in all things, He had to die, a human death.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: Jesus - God or man? A Scriptural Analogy

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:01 pm

Mr. Baldy I also see as part of your argument that you cannot reconcile the supernatural acts of Jesus with the idea that He was also human.

But let me point this out to you.

These supernatural acts were performed by the 12 apostles, who were mere men.

 Peter walked on water (Matthew 14:28-31)
 All believers spoke in foreign languages (Acts 2:4)
 Many signs and wonders performed (Acts 2:43; 5:12)
 Peter & John healed the lame man (Acts 3:1-11; 3:16)
 Peter's shadow fell on the sick, healing them (Acts 5:15-16)
 Stephen performed amazing miracles and signs (Acts 6:8)
 Philip cast out demons and healed the lame (Acts 8:7; 8:13)
 Peter heals lame Aeneas in Lydda (Acts 9:32-35)
 Peter raised Tabitha, aka Dorcas, from the dead (Acts 9:36-43)
 Paul & Barnabas performed signs and wonders in Iconium (Acts 14:3)
 Paul & Barnabas healed the crippled man who had faith (Acts 14:8-10)
 Paul & Silas cast a demon out of a fortune telling slave girl (Acts 16:16-18)
 Paul given extreme power for many unusual miracles. (Acts 19:11-12)
 Paul raised Eutychus from the dead after a terrible accident (Acts 20:9-12)
 Paul unharmed by poisonous snake bite in Malta (Acts 28:3-6)
 Paul healed Publius' father of fever and dysentery (Acts 28:7-8)
 Paul healed all sick people on the island of Malta (Acts 28:9-10)

The apostles were and we as well are filled with God, all believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they are able to perform supernatural acts, that only God could perform. If we as humans can perform miracles via the power of the Holy Spirit, then certainly that destroys your argument. Jesus could be human and still perform miraculous supernatural feats, and He more so, since He was also God.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Next

Return to General Bible Study & Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests