Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

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Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:40 am

I was wondering if anyone here could help me with the Greek understanding of this passage, in particular the underlined portion:

Revelation 6:8
8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.


I believe that it refers to 1/4 of the earth geographically but in a debate on another site another person said the following:

Let's look at the Greek

autos: (to them) exousia: (power to act, authority) epi: (on, upon) fourth; tétartos ((figuratively) a part of the whole (totality, all four quarters) )
gé: (the earth, land, inhabitants of a region.) apokteinó or apoktennó: to kill ,put to death, kill; fig: abolish.

It appears -- you want to stop the text at the gé --- which primarily does mean land or earth -- but can mean inhabitants of a region based off the context.....

Then you STOP --- the very next word is the ACTION word -- the very word they were "given power to act upon"

That Action word is TO KILL (also put to death, also abolish)

The authority (or the power to act) goes to the action being called out --- it does not go to the thing that limits the authority (ie 1/4 of the inhabitants)

Or to put another way, the "1/4 of the inhabitants" is a limiting conditional upon the ACTION --- the Action again is TO KILL -- but the limit says only 1/4 .....

The rest of the sentence refers back to the ACTION VERB --- or how that action verb will be done --- through SWORD / Famine / Viruses / Wild Animals .....
Unsure why you do not want to include the ACTION VERB --- since it connects both the authority to act -- with the how to act


Not having a solid understanding of the Greek I was unsure how to respond. I wonder if anyone here can tell me, is this person correct or am I on the right track?

Any help would be appreciated.

RT
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:11 am

Hi RT,

Since the clause in question reads "over a fourth part of the earth", this is a portion of the surface of the earth.

This part:

It appears -- you want to stop the text at the gé --- which primarily does mean land or earth -- but can mean inhabitants of a region based off the context.....


Can mean inhabitants? Really? Support?

The writer would have to show how ge actually does mean people and not land in certain instances, and they would then need to show why it would not mean land in this instance, that being, in their words, the primary meaning.

Personally I find their argument illogical, since there is no requirement that the same limitations be placed on the method of action as are placed on the area of action. "You can do whatever you want, but only in your room." Same kind of sentence. Is there really a problem with this sort of thinking?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:32 am

Thanks Mark, I appreciate your feedback. I knew I was on the right track, but the language is "all Greek to me" :grin: I was hoping you would join in here since you are the resident Greek scholar!

RT
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Jericho on Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:46 am

I don't know Greek, but just looking at the English translation he treats it as a run-on sentence when it is not. There's a reason you stopped after "of the earth (gé)", there's a comma afterwards.

"Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth," is an independent clause, and therefor a complete sentence.
"to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." is not a complete sentence, rather a series, and cannot stand on its own.

So we have two verbs in this sentence, "was given (didōmi)", and "to kill (apokteinō)". We have to ask ourselves what is the subject of these two verbs. What was given? Authority. Who is killing? Them. Therefore , the verb "to kill (apokteinō)" is connected to "them (autos)", and not to "authority (exousia)" as he asserts.
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:13 pm

RT

Please allow me to comment. It may help.

The land area of the earth is approximately 30% of the total surface area of the earth, around 148,000,000 sq kms of a total surface area of the earth of around 510,000,000 sq kms.

The land area also includes the uninhabitable land areas of the polar regions which reduces the area in which human habitation primarily exists to around 25% of the surface area of the earth.

Now when we consider the Greek word γῆς, which has in it the Greek Root, G:1093, γῆ embedded within it, we know that it occurs around 136 times in the New Testament.

The first occurrence of γῆς is found in the following passage: -

Matthew 5:13: - "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.


And the second occurrence of γῆς is found in this following passage: -

Matthew 6:10: - Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.


It is my view that both occurrences are speaking globally of the earth. Salt can be used to purify or heal or flavor and its use is not restricted to human consumption but salt can be applied to the soil, to animals etc.

In the second usage of γῆς in Matthew 6:10, the word is used globally to mean the whole earth just as in the whole heaven.

Now, looking at the passage: -
Revelation 6:7-8: – When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Let us consider, that it was Death that sat on the Horse, and that Hades followed with Him and that after Satan, the dragon is dispatched into the Lake of Fire, that both Death and hades were also thrown into the lake of Fire as we are told in the following Passage: -

Revelation 20:10-15: - The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


The fourth Seal in Revelation 6:8, it seems to me, gives permission to Death and Hades, figuratively, to “kill” humans/people who inhabit one fourth part of the surface of the earth, i.e. all human beings/people. The passage does not limit the number of humans/people that both Death and Hades can consume during the time of their authority given in the Fourth Seal..

When we “sin against God” death has us in his grasp and we are candidates for the Second Death in the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne time of Judgement, which is in our distant future, and as such, we are, as it were, “dead” to God. If we physically die while we have not repented of our “Sin(s)” against God, then we are “imprisoned” in Hades to await the time of our judgement.

I trust that this helps.

Shalom
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:25 pm

Thanks all- you have each given me some very good information, which is helpful and appreciated.

RT
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:17 am

Jericho wrote:I don't know Greek, but just looking at the English translation he treats it as a run-on sentence when it is not. There's a reason you stopped after "of the earth (gé)", there's a comma afterwards.

"Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth," is an independent clause, and therefor a complete sentence.
"to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." is not a complete sentence, rather a series, and cannot stand on its own.

So we have two verbs in this sentence, "was given (didōmi)", and "to kill (apokteinō)". We have to ask ourselves what is the subject of these two verbs. What was given? Authority. Who is killing? Them. Therefore , the verb "to kill (apokteinō)" is connected to "them (autos)", and not to "authority (exousia)" as he asserts.


Hi Jericho,

While "given" is the action verb, "to kill" would be a linking verb, and doesn't actually describe the action of the sentence.

If you were to reduce the sentence to it's most basic components, "Authority was given." Object and verb. The remaining clauses provide information to this clause.

Authority to do what? To kill upon 1/4 part of the earth
To whom is authority given? The rider, and his companion.
How do they kill? In the manners specified.

If you look at the linking verb "to kill" as an action verb, you have a difficulty, because it lacks an object. For instance, "them . . . to kill" is not a proper clause. You would have to say something like, "they kill". Now you have an object and verb. But that's not what was written.

Hopefully this will help.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:57 pm

RT

On reflection this morning about the passage on the fourth Seal, I looked at the Greek words for Death and Hades and checked into their meaning.

The Greek word used for death in Revelation 6:8 is Θάνατος, Thanatos,aand it is found/used in the New Testament in the following verse references: - Romans 5:12, 5:12, 5:14, 5:17, 6:9, 6:21, 6:23, 7:13, 8:6, 8:38, 1 Corinthians 3:22, 15:21, 15:26, 15:54, 2 Corinthians 4:12, Revelation 6:8, 9:6, 18:8, 20:6, 20:13, 20:14, 20:14, 21:4, 21:8 and in every case it is a reference to the "Second Death" which is associated with the consequences of sinning. The "Second Death" is first found mentioned in Genesis 2:17: -
Genesis 2:16-17: - And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die the second death.
Please note: - What has been highlighted in Blue is my paraphrasing of the original Hebrew Text.


The Greek word used for hades in Revelation 6:8 is ᾅδης, hades, and it is found/used in the New Testament in the following verse references: - Revelation 6:8, 20:13, 20:14 and my understanding is that it is a reference to the "Abyss" where the souls of unrepentant people go after they have physically died. The Abyss is first mentioned in Genesis 1:2: -
Genesis 1:2: - The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.


The Strong Hebrew Root for תְה֑וֹם is H:8415 and Strong’s Root definition is: -

H:8415 תְּהוֹם tehowm (teh-home'); or tehom (teh-home'); (usually feminine) from [H:1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply): –– KJV – deep (place), depth.

H:1949 הוּם huwm (hoom); a primitive root [compare OT:2000]; to make an uproar, or agitate greatly: –– KJV – destroy, move, make a noise, put, ring again.


Now since both Death and Hades have been since the beginning of the time of mankind, the outworking of the fourth seal logically has been since the beginning of time.

For me, this puts a different spin on the six seals, and when they have had or will have an impact on the outcome of the people of the earth.

I would suggest that it is possible that the first four seals have been in effect since the beginning of mankind.

That the fifth seal came into effect after the time of the cross while the sixth seal will begin to unfold in our distant future.

With this time understanding, it becomes clear that the understanding presently held by many, may in fact, be very wide of the mark and need to be re-examined in the light of what I am suggesting above with respect to when the six seals come into play in the unfolding story of mankind.

Shalom.
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:53 pm

Now since both Death and Hades have been since the beginning of the time of mankind, the outworking of the fourth seal logically has been since the beginning of time.

For me, this puts a different spin on the six seals, and when they have had or will have an impact on the outcome of the people of the earth.

I would suggest that it is possible that the first four seals have been in effect since the beginning of mankind.

That the fifth seal came into effect after the time of the cross while the sixth seal will begin to unfold in our distant future.


Hi Jay, that's very interesting, and I happen to agree with you!
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:39 pm

What :oops: really?



:mrgreen:
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Re: Question about the 4th seal/ Greek understanding

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:47 pm

Jay Ross wrote:What :oops: really?



:mrgreen:


How about that? You and I agree on something! :banana:

RT
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