Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:01 am

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


To be born of water and spirit is exampled above.
To argue the birth of the flesh is to be born of water is to argue that because they received the Holy Spirit they did not need to be baptized again with water. Scripture teaches both water and spirit are necessary, even if we have already received the Spirit we are to be baptized with water. Thus are we born of both water and Spirit.

Water and Spirit; We are to be baptized with both.
Study up on baptism is one of the basics (milk not solid food); baptism is about death and rebirth.


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:25 am

keithareilly wrote:To be born of water and spirit is exampled above.
To argue the birth of the flesh is to be born water is to argue that since they received the Holy Spirit they did not need to be baptized.

Water and Spirit; We are to be baptized with both.
Baptism is about death and rebirth.


Except Jesus didn't use the word baptized in John 3. He surely knew the significance of baptism being a Jew, and was Himself baptized by John the Baptist. Matt. 3:13

Here's the difference:

Baptism G907 (Matt. 2:13)
baptizō; from G911; to dip, sink: — Baptist (3), baptize (9), baptized (51), baptizes (1), baptizing (10), ceremonially washed (1), undergo (1).

born G1080 (John 3:5-6)
gennaō
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

This is why context, the culture, the intent of the speaker, and how the words would be understood by the hearer(s) is so important in interpretation of any given passage.

Acts 10 mentions those who came with Peter were circumcised believers; meaning they were converted Jews. Acts 11 continues with the confrontations Peter received by the circumcised:

Act 11:2  And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 
Act 11:3  saying, "You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them." 


ETA: The book of Acts should be understood as a transitional book; i.e. from that of a primarily Jewish church in Jerusalem to one that included Gentiles in home assemblies. In Chapter 18:5-7 we find Paul discouraged that the Jews were not receiving the gospel, and he left the Synagogue and turned to the home of a Gentile believer who lived near the synagogue. Watch the transition throughout the book from a purely Jewish to a blending of both Jew and Gentile, male and female, and slave and free. From there we begin to see Paul answering the many questions new churches were struggling with; i.e. circumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, worship on the Sabbath, women in the assemblies, head coverings, etc.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:14 pm

Who baptizes converts with water? The bride of Christ, the bride of God.
Who baptizes with the Spirit? The Father in heaven, God the Father.

Argue all you want about being born again; I have provided an example of being born of water and Spirit.
We are born of water from the Bride, and Spirit from the Father.
I suggest you study baptism in greater depth; it is what unites us with Christ in death and His Resurrection, His new life.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:45 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Therefore, we must come to the conclusion that all men, all Adam’s offspring must be born again of water and the Spirit in order to be saved (enter the kingdom).

I know you don’t agree with this Abiding.


It's the associations you have drawn from that verse that I disagree with, Sonbeam.

For example:


- you seem to be ignoring the very important context regarding the Jewish Pharisee Jesus is speaking to


No, actually I am not. Nicodemus should have readily understood the symbolic reference to "born of water" since he was supposed to be thoroughly familiar with the use of water for cleansing/purifying in OT rites.

But since Nicodemus was a Jew, and this whole passage is about the gospel of Christ, are you saying that the gospel is different for Jews vs gentiles?

- you seem to be overlooking the announcement by Jesus that the Kingdom of God had arrived (meaning it's a present reality)


I don't see a verse in this passage we are discussing where Jesus announced the Kingdom of God had arrived. ?????


- we cannot overlook the Jesus' reference that one cannot "see" the Kingdom (because it's a spiritual Kingdom)


No. I haven't overlooked that. It can be interpreted two ways, one, no one can understand the Kingdom of God unless they are born again of the Spirit, and two, no one will actually see the Kingdom unless they enter it (be there) by being born again of the Spirit as Jesus said.

(above paragraph edited on 6/19/17 .... hope it makes my opinion on this clearer now Abiding ) :grin:


- knowing that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is here and is spiritual, we cannot interpret it as "entering" eternity.
-

Again I don't see Jesus mentioning that in all of John 3.


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:12 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Nicodemus should have readily understood the symbolic reference to "born of water" since he was supposed to be thoroughly familiar with the use of water for cleansing/purifying in OT rites.


Maybe he should have...but he didn't. He related birth by water to going back into the womb and being born a second time. Jesus didn't refute Nicodemus' reference to a second birth, He simply continued with His contrasting the earthly with the spiritual.

But since Nicodemus was a Jew, and this whole passage is about the gospel of Christ, are you saying that the gospel is different for Jews vs gentiles?


Sonbeam, you have pretty consistently emphasized John 3:5-6 as a salvation passage. Here's just a couple:

Therefore, Christ’s emphatic pronouncements in John Chap 3 are the final Word of God on how a person is saved:

3. Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
And again in verse 5:

5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., and also Christ’s apostles, John the Baptist, Mary and any other believers whom God birthed of His Spirit before the Cross were part of this group.

For all of us born after the Cross, the order of salvation is:

We have received the birth of water (cleansing from sin on the Cross) first, and then we receive the birth of the Spirit when we believe the Gospel.


But when I mentioned this:
- you seem to be overlooking the announcement by Jesus that the Kingdom of God had arrived (meaning it's a present reality)


You again seemed to reign in the discussion to those two verses and discount the announcement from Mark 1:14-15. Here's what you said:

I don't see a verse in this passage we are discussing where Jesus announced the Kingdom of God had arrived. ?????


But earlier in this thread you referred to other passages as evidence for the points you were making; i.e. Matt. 12:43-45; Heb. 10:26-29; Matt. 26:28 and Romans 3:25. If we are to confine our comments to John 3:5-6 only, then neither does either of those two verses mention the cross, sins, cleansing/washing or the OT saints you mentioned. They do, however, mention the words "Kingdom of God" so that warrants some examination at least imo. Since I found the term 65 times in the NT and none in the OT, the intended meaning will obviously be found in it's context.

- we cannot overlook the Jesus' reference that one cannot "see" the Kingdom (because it's a spiritual Kingdom)

No. I haven't overlooked that. It can be interpreted two ways, one, no one cannot understand the Kingdom of God unless they are born again of the Spirit, and two, no one will actually see the Kingdom if they are not born again of the Spirit because they will never enter the Kingdom as Jesus said.


OK, that's a reasonable, but debatable :wink: focus on the words Kingdom of God if we are limited to John 3:5-6 alone.

- knowing that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is here and is spiritual, we cannot interpret it as "entering" eternity.

Again I don't see Jesus mentioning that in all of John 3.


By "all of John 3" are you in agreement that isolating 2 verses to arrive at an important spiritual principle is not good hermeneutic? Because the authors of the NT books consistently provided evidence for current statements or truths by quoting previous scripture from the OT to verify them. So in our search for the meaning of a passage, it's necessary to consider the intended meaning, to whom was it directed, and as how the hearer would have understood it.

Also helpful are the Greek meanings which is why I provided Strong's meaning for the word "born" in the verse as opposed to that of baptism.

OK, so it would be helpful for me to know if you are limiting the discussion to John 3:5-6 since you recently mentioned "all of John 3" and "the whole passage" when I posted the Jesus announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God in Mark 1:14-15.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:51 am

Abiding and all,

Am on a much needed vacation. :grin:

Be back before too long. :grin:

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:59 am

Well, I see there hasn't been much activity on this thread. Was everybody else on vacation too. :lol:

Judging from the many other threads I don't think so. :grin: Current events and eschatology are more interesting
subjects.

Anyway, I''ll answer your comments soon Abiding. Thank you for your interest in this passage we've been discussing.
A very important one since it is Christ's Word on His gospel.

Maybe we can get to the main subject of this thread sometime soon. :grin: It is a very important one that if fully understood can help many believers enter into God's rest about their salvation.

Blessings to all!
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:39 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
OK, so it would be helpful for me to know if you are limiting the discussion to John 3:5-6 since you recently mentioned "all of John 3" and "the whole passage" when I posted the Jesus announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God in Mark 1:14-15.


Hi Abiding!

No, I absolutely have not limited the discussion only to verses found in John 3 since I’ve quoted other bible verses just like you have.

I just have not found how Mark 1:14 -15, or any of the 65 verses like it that you have mentioned, change the meaning of Christ’s Word regarding how a person may enter His kingdom, i.e., be saved.

And taken in context, it’s obvious that by the words "see" and “enter” in verses 3 and 4 of John 3, Christ means being born again, specifically being born of water and the Spirit.

I went back and read the posts :dizzy: where we’ve been discussing John Chap 3, and I think it would be a good idea to clarify our positions on it.

Here’s mine:

Very simply, I interpret the whole passage in John 3:1-21 as Christ’s pronouncement/decree on what/how the process of salvation is for all men.

My understanding of your position is that this is not true; that Mark 1:14-15 and other 65 verses like it prove that Christ was only telling Nicodemus that the kingdom of God is here and it is spiritual.

Could you clarify your position on the whole John 3:1-21 passage Abiding?

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:51 pm

Sonbeam wrote:I went back and read the posts :dizzy: where we’ve been discussing John Chap 3, and I think it would be a good idea to clarify our positions on it.

Here’s mine:

Very simply, I interpret the whole passage in John 3:1-21 as Christ’s pronouncement/decree on what/how the process of salvation is for all men.


Sonbeam, you have consistently, IIRC, attributed John 3:5 as "Christ's pronouncement/decree on what/how the process of salvation is for all men."

Here is your understanding of John 3:5 (Wed. May 24, 2017).

The process of salvation has two parts as our Lord told Nicodemus: the birth of water and the birth of the Spirit

All men received the birth of water (cleansing from sin) on the Cross.

But not all will receive the birth of the Spirit. Those men will be condemned.


    You also referred to this verse as the "order of salvation" (Fri. May 26, 2017)

    You believe that John 3:3-5 as a means of salvation for "those living before Christ went to the Cross were saved the way Jesus declared in John Chap 3. (Tues. May 30, 2017)

    You assumed that the OT saints must have been born again even though scriptures "do not specifically spell out that a person was born of the Spirit or was indwelt by the Spirit during that time does not preclude that in fact, they were." You based this assumption on this: " Christ’s emphatic pronouncements in John Chap 3 are the final Word of God on how a person is saved:" (Wed. May 31, 2017)

    And once again, you make this assumption without evidence of scripture: "Now, if Christ was telling the truth here, then everyone, including the saints before the Cross has to be born again of the Spirit. No, it is not spelled out in so many words in the OT writings. But God had to have effected the birth of the Spirit for men prior to the Cross for them to have become children of God and be able to enter His Kingdom." (Thurs. June 1, 2017)

Could you clarify your position on the whole John 3:1-21 passage Abiding?


So I'm seeing a pretty firm stance on John 3:3-5 being the basis for salvation in your opinion regardless of whether or not scriptural evidence can be found to that affect elsewhere in the Bible. In other words, one or two verses (John 3:3-5) have become the all-time "order of salvation" for all people for all time.

But after these and other positions I've not listed emphasizing John 2:3-5, you have now enlarged that "order of salvation" to include "the whole" of John 3:1-21 passage.

So my question to you now is, why have you veered from your stated emphasis on those two verses as the clear, emphatic, words of Christ as the final word of God as to how a person must be saved?
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:43 pm

Sonbeam wrote:My understanding of your position is that this is not true; that Mark 1:14-15 and other 65 verses like it prove that Christ was only telling Nicodemus that the kingdom of God is here and it is spiritual.


Your understanding is correct for the most part, Sonbeam. Jesus Himself announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God. It is a spiritual Kingdom in that one cannot see it or enter in unless they are born of the Spirit. It is also my opinion that there is nothing in John 3:3-5 that mentions or implies salvation or eternal life.

Could you clarify your position on the whole John 3:1-21 passage Abiding?


Sure...going beyond John 3:3-5, we do find clear references to being saved and eternal life.

  "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:14-15

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  John 3:16

and beyond verse 21

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life...."John 3:36  
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:41 am

I have been reading along on this thread for a few days and one thing that strikes me here as it always does, because it comes up SO OFTEN, is that we, human beings, struggle with the simplicity of the gospel message.
The fact that our salvation hinges on acceptance of Christ's gift of salvation and that in truth and fact, ALL required of us to receive it is a simple prayer to Christ accepting this gift from Him.

We cannot be saved by good behavior.....(often called good works by Christians).....
We cannot be saved by anything other than Christ's love and grace for us, as it's an act done completely by Him.

What comes after that (communion with the Lord ...the act of interacting, reading His scriptures and FOLLOWING them .....NOT.....again......NOT so we can be saved......BUT so that we can fellowship with Him here and now, which causes us to grow in ways that we will desire and look upon with favor......because the reality is, for those of us who do have fellowship and walk daily with the Lord, there is nothing so wonderful and great as to have the LIVING GOD show up and be a part of our life every single day).

His scriptures say that we cannot serve two masters.....(Corinthians), and that means we can't live our life devoid of interaction with God and have here and now fellowship with the Lord......(see this also in Ephesians)......and please note I have paraphrased what was said to provide the gist of what was said and what it meant.....So, if we want the fellowship with the Lord and the beautiful benefits and blessings that come with walking with Him, we must read His scriptures, pray often and seek Him.....this is what WE do......WE DO NOT SAVE OURSELVES......once we have eternal life, we go about making our here and now life so much better by learning to live an OVERCOMERS LIFE.....overcoming the world and the ways of the world by FELLOWSHIPPING and walking closely with the Lord.

Please forgive me if I have derailed the current discussion, but I had the desire to give testimony and witness to the simplicity of the process of salvation and the beauty of a life lived in communion and surrender to a Lord who loves us so much.......SO MUCH......and has wisdom for us that far exceeds what our best plans might be.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:15 am

Godstudent wrote,
The fact that our salvation hinges on acceptance of Christ's gift of salvation and that in truth and fact, ALL required of us to receive it is a simple prayer to Christ accepting this gift from Him.


No. Not a prayer. Our appeal takes the form of baptism with water.
To argue ALL that is required is prayer is to argue baptism does not save you.
This argument is contrary to scripture.


1 peter 3:21-22 NASB
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:31 pm

keithareilly wrote:Godstudent wrote,
The fact that our salvation hinges on acceptance of Christ's gift of salvation and that in truth and fact, ALL required of us to receive it is a simple prayer to Christ accepting this gift from Him.


No. Not a prayer. Our appeal takes the form of baptism with water.
To argue ALL that is required is prayer is to argue baptism does not save you.
This argument is contrary to scripture.


1 peter 3:21-22 NASB
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


Agreed. I try to keep my testimony and witness simple for unsaved people to begin and/or understand the process of establishing a relationship with Christ, and I end up being too simple.....

Thanks for COMPLETING my post, because indeed, without the baptism thru water, indeed conversion is not promised.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:01 pm

But after these and other positions I've not listed emphasizing John 2:3-5, you have now enlarged that "order of salvation" to include "the whole" of John 3:1-21 passage.

So my question to you now is, why have you veered from your stated emphasis on those two verses as the clear, emphatic, words of Christ as the final word of God as to how a person must be saved?

Abiding in His Word


No I have not veered from the statements I've made on the process of salvation. Take a look at my post dated May 26 and see that I was including all of the John 3 passage in regards to salvaqtion


Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 26, 2017 2:35 pm

Abiding said:

Would you please clarify how one receives the birth of the Spirit? And where does that leave all those living in the previous 4,000 yrs. of scriptural history?


God effects the birth of the Spirit in a person when He sees the response of faith to His Word/Gospel in a person’s heart.

This is how Noah, Abraham, and others received the birth of the Spirit. They believe in the Word of God given to them at the time.

Going back to the John 3 passage we’ve been discussing, we see that twice Christ very emphatically said the following:

3. Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

And again in verse 5:

5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Therefore, we can safely deduce, and scriptures like Gen 7 and 15:4-6 and Heb Chap 11 testify to this:
that those living before Christ went to the Cross were saved the way Jesus declared in John Chap 3.

However, the order of their salvation was:

they were born of the Spirit first, but they did not receive the birth of water until Christ accomplished the forgiveness of their sins on the Cross.

These were the sins Romans 3:25 talks about:

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., and also Christ’s apostles, John the Baptist, Mary and any other believers whom God birthed of His Spirit before the Cross were part of this group.

For all of us born after the Cross, the order of salvation is:

We have received the birth of water (cleansing from sin on the Cross) first, and then we receive the birth of the Spirit [u]when we believe the Gospel.

:blessyou:

sonbeam


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:48 pm

GodsStudent wrote:I have been reading along on this thread for a few days and one thing that strikes me here as it always does, because it comes up SO OFTEN, is that we, human beings, struggle with the simplicity of the gospel message.
The fact that our salvation hinges on acceptance of Christ's gift of salvation and that in truth and fact, ALL required of us to receive it is a simple prayer to Christ accepting this gift from Him.



I agree GS. I've often said, and I think I've posted that on this board before, that the best example of how to give the gospel is the simple way our Lord gave it to the woman at the well in Chap 4.

Also, though I know from what Christ said about the two births in John 3 ( that for a person to be saved (enter His kingdom) he must be born again), I do not make that a part of the good news when I witness to a nonbeliever. But I know from what Christ said in John 3 that God must birth the person of His Spirit for that person to become a child of God.

Do you believe that God has to birth a person of His Spirit for that person to enter His Kingdom. I'm sure you do. So the Truth is that the process of salvation for a person is completed only when God executes the new birth in the Spirit for a believer.

Blessings,
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:I went back and read the posts :dizzy: where we’ve been discussing John Chap 3, and I think it would be a good idea to clarify our positions on it.

Here’s mine:

Very simply, I interpret the whole passage in John 3:1-21 as Christ’s pronouncement/decree on what/how the process of salvation is for all men.


Abiding said:
Sonbeam, you have consistently, IIRC, attributed John 3:5 as "Christ's pronouncement/decree on what/how the process of salvation is for all men."


Here's John 3:5:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


You don't agree with what Christ said here Abiding?

This is very clear. Christ said that this is the process that must take place for a person to enter the Kingdom of God.

Would you agree that unless a person is born on God's Spirit, the salvation process is not completed according to what Christ said?

sonbeam

PS Have a hard time with quote marks when there are multiple quotes in a post. :sweat: :grin:
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:52 pm

Sonbeam wrote:You don't agree with what Christ said here Abiding?

This is very clear. Christ said that this is the process that must take place for a person to enter the Kingdom of God.

Would you agree that unless a person is born on God's Spirit, the salvation process is not completed according to what Christ said?


Hi Sonbeam,

I answered your question yesterday at 8:43 p.m. You can look back, but here's a portion of that:

I said: " It is also my opinion that there is nothing in John 3:3-5 that mentions or implies salvation or eternal life."

You asked:

Could you clarify your position on the whole John 3:1-21 passage Abiding?


I replied:

Sure...going beyond John 3:3-5, we do find clear references to being saved and eternal life.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:14-15

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

and beyond verse 21

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life...."John 3:36

___________________________________

My conclusion is that while you evidently are associating the "Kingdom of God" with heaven or eternity or everlasting life, I see it as a spiritual realm here on earth which only those who are born of the Spirit can see or enter into. I don't (as I said above) see any reference in that verse that implies heaven, eternity, or everlasting life as is obvious in the rest of the chapter (verses 14, 15, 16, and 36) where the words "eternal life" are clearly noted by Jesus.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:57 am

Do you believe that God has to birth a person of His Spirit for that person to enter His Kingdom. I'm sure you do. So the Truth is that the process of salvation for a person is completed only when God executes the new birth in the Spirit for a believer.

Blessings,
sonbeam


Hi sonbeam: Yes, I actually do. I believe very strongly that this is offered to every single human being on the planet if they ask, and I do not think the person has to know this "process" is what takes place.....I think the scriptures are clear that one has to believe that Christ is the Son of God, come to redeem us as His, and that by and through His finished work on the Cross, we have only to ask Him to give us His gift of eternal life with Him in order to receive it.

In other words, simply knowing and believing (FAITH) that He will save us is all required of us.....(and of course a water baptism)....BUT HERE IS A GOOD QUESTION.......

The two men on the crosses with Jesus did not get a water baptism but Christ Himself said they were saved for their belief. We have talked about a water baptism and yet, I know of others who, literally on their death bed, accepted Christ....but were not baptized......
Would the failure to splash water on their forehead (or get dunked in the case of the Baptists) REALLY cause someone to NOT be saved? This technical thing bothers me sometimes.....

Sorry, maybe I have for sure messed this thread up now?
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:32 am

n other words, simply knowing and believing (FAITH) that He will save us is all required of us.....(and of course a water baptism)....BUT HERE IS A GOOD QUESTION.......

The two men on the crosses with Jesus did not get a water baptism but Christ Himself said they were saved for their belief. We have talked about a water baptism and yet, I know of others who, literally on their death bed, accepted Christ....but were not baptized......
Would the failure to splash water on their forehead (or get dunked in the case of the Baptists) REALLY cause someone to NOT be saved? This technical thing bothers me sometimes.....


Where in the Bible does it say both thieves were saved?
One wanted to be with Christ and the other mocked him, Jesus spoke to the one that wanted to be with him,,,,

Where in the Bible does it say that water baptism is required to be saved?
I know many people who surrended to Christ and were never baptized, are they saved?
In Christ Always,
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:51 am

Looks like we've come full circle.... :lol:

Most often I hear/read of a "system" necessary for becoming a believer. Some of those necessary components might include some or all of the following:

* Believe
* Confess with your mouth
* Public confession
* Baptism
* Faith
* Repent for forgiveness of sin
* Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior
* Becoming "Born Again"
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:49 am

Matthew 22:37

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

I like this scripture... :)
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:14 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:My understanding of your position is that this is not true; that Mark 1:14-15 and other 65 verses like it prove that Christ was only telling Nicodemus that the kingdom of God is here and it is spiritual.


Your understanding is correct for the most part, Sonbeam. Jesus Himself announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God. It is a spiritual Kingdom in that one cannot see it or enter in unless they are born of the Spirit. It is also my opinion that there is nothing in John 3:3-5 that mentions or implies salvation or eternal life.

Could you clarify your position on the whole John 3:1-21 passage Abiding?


Sure...going beyond John 3:3-5, we do find clear references to being saved and eternal life.

  "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:14-15

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  John 3:16

and beyond verse 21

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life...."John 3:36  



Thank you Abiding. You made your position very clear. And I have made mine too.

Since we've been around and around on this, let's agree to disagree.

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:26 am

GodsStudent wrote:
Do you believe that God has to birth a person of His Spirit for that person to enter His Kingdom. I'm sure you do. So the Truth is that the process of salvation for a person is completed only when God executes the new birth in the Spirit for a believer.

Blessings,
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Hi sonbeam: Yes, I actually do. I believe very strongly that this is offered to every single human being on the planet if they ask, and I do not think the person has to know this "process" is what takes place.....


Agree GS. The person does not have to know the process of how God effects salvation in order for a person to be saved.


In other words, simply knowing and believing (FAITH) that He will save us is all required of us.....(and of course a water baptism)....BUT HERE IS A GOOD QUESTION.......

The two men on the crosses with Jesus did not get a water baptism but Christ Himself said they were saved for their belief. We have talked about a water baptism and yet, I know of others who, literally on their death bed, accepted Christ....but were not baptized......
Would the failure to splash water on their forehead (or get dunked in the case of the Baptists) REALLY cause someone to NOT be saved? This technical thing bothers me sometimes.....

Sorry, maybe I have for sure messed this thread up now?


Water baptism doesn't do anything in regards to salvation. The washing (birth of water) of our sins on the Cross by the blood of Christ is what cleansed the world of sin and brought about the forgiveness of sins.

And no you have not "messed up" this thread GS. Water baptism is only a symbol of what our Lord has already done on the Cross.

Actually, water baptism is a remembrance of the "birth of water," the metaphor our Lord used in John 3 to announce His salvation plan.

My interpretation of the "birth of water" is what sent us in a slightly different direction from the subject of this thread. :wink:

I say "slightly" different direction because God's process of salvation has many facets to be explored and understood.
And we are all searching for His Truth.

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:41 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Matthew 22:37

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

I like this scripture... :)


I do too WOODHENOT3.

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:21 am

Do not build upon sand.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

If we wish to mature as Christians, that is move unto perfection, which is indeed a part of our salvation, then we should be certain we understand the foundations upon which that perfection is built: Repentance, Faith, Baptism, Laying on of Hands, Resurrection of the Dead, and Eternal Judgement.

Many posts on this site study such things. But to say they are not needed such as saying baptism is not a part of one salvation is to build upon a foundation other than the one set in place for us to build upon. Building on a foundation other than the one set in place will result in the inability to move unto perfection.

Here again is the evidence baptism is part of salvation.

1 peter 3:21-22 NASB
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

How does baptism work as part of our salvation?

Romans 6:1-7
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 [b]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Baptism is what unites us in Christ's death, thus freeing us from enslavement to sin, so that we may walk in newness of life.


Let us not dismiss the foundations of our salvation.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:43 am

Sonbeam wrote:
Thank you Abiding. You made your position very clear. And I have made mine too.

Since we've been around and around on this, let's agree to disagree.


I agree. :)

Sonbeam wrote:
.....because God's process of salvation has many facets to be explored and understood.


Agree again. As I mentioned previously, I don't see a "one-size-fits-all" process of salvation. That's difficult for many to believe since we tend to prefer absolutes, structure, systems, rules, procedures, etc. to salvation by grace...a free gift.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...Eph_2:8

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:35 pm

Abiding wrote,

Agree again. As I mentioned previously, I don't see a "one-size-fits-all" process of salvation. That's difficult for many to believe since we tend to prefer absolutes, structure, systems, rules, procedures, etc. to salvation by grace...a free gift.


Perhaps 'process' is the wrong perspective.
Life grows. Not all growth processes are the same.
Nevertheless, growth occurs.

Scripture provides us a foundation upon which to build.
What we build is tested with fire an may survive and may not.
But, building on a good foundation is essential.
So, Build.

Build and Grow.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:55 pm

keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote,

Agree again. As I mentioned previously, I don't see a "one-size-fits-all" process of salvation. That's difficult for many to believe since we tend to prefer absolutes, structure, systems, rules, procedures, etc. to salvation by grace...a free gift.


Perhaps 'process' is the wrong perspective.
Life grows. Not all growth processes are the same.
Nevertheless, growth occurs.

Scripture provides us a foundation upon which to build.
What we build is tested with fire an may survive and may not.
But, building on a good foundation is essential.
So, Build.

Build and Grow.

Keith


And if you don't build and grow, what happens to the free gift?
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:04 pm

Woody,

Probably would be like the servant placing his single talent in the ground instead of the bank.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:46 pm

Why is baptism important in this thread?

Because the Law no longer applies to those who have been baptized, sharing in Christ's death.

Romans 7:1-4
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

It is the sharing of Christ's death through baptism that places we believers outside the Jurisdiction of the Law. Because the Law only applies until we die, sharing in Christ's death means we have died and we are no longer under the Law's jurisdiction; because, the Law only applies until we die.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:16 pm

Hi Keith,

Are you talking about water baptism, or being baptized into Christ?

Love in Him,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:21 pm

keithareilly wrote:Woody,

Probably would be like the servant placing his single talent in the ground instead of the bank.

Keith


Would this then mean that the gift of salvation would be taken away, as in the parable?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:23 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote,

Agree again. As I mentioned previously, I don't see a "one-size-fits-all" process of salvation. That's difficult for many to believe since we tend to prefer absolutes, structure, systems, rules, procedures, etc. to salvation by grace...a free gift.


Perhaps 'process' is the wrong perspective.
Life grows. Not all growth processes are the same.
Nevertheless, growth occurs.

Scripture provides us a foundation upon which to build.
What we build is tested with fire an may survive and may not.
But, building on a good foundation is essential.
So, Build.

Build and Grow.

Keith


And if you don't build and grow, what happens to the free gift?


It won't do you or others the good that God intended if you don't let yourself be conformed to Christ's image. But it's still salvation, still a gift, and still yours.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:24 pm

mark s wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Woody,

Probably would be like the servant placing his single talent in the ground instead of the bank.

Keith


Would this then mean that the gift of salvation would be taken away, as in the parable?

Love in Christ,
Mark


When I use the word 'Probably' I am speculating. I do not choose and would not advise building upon speculation.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:26 pm

keithareilly wrote:Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


To be born of water and spirit is exampled above.
To argue the birth of the flesh is to be born of water is to argue that because they received the Holy Spirit they did not need to be baptized again with water. Scripture teaches both water and spirit are necessary, even if we have already received the Spirit we are to be baptized with water. Thus are we born of both water and Spirit.

Water and Spirit; We are to be baptized with both.
Study up on baptism is one of the basics (milk not solid food); baptism is about death and rebirth.


Keith


I just found this post, I see you are talking about both water baptism and spirit baptism as both required for salvation.

I'm curious, what do you do with Ephesians 4 where God tells the church that there is only actually 1 baptism, rather than 2?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:27 pm

keithareilly wrote:
mark s wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Woody,

Probably would be like the servant placing his single talent in the ground instead of the bank.

Keith


Would this then mean that the gift of salvation would be taken away, as in the parable?

Love in Christ,
Mark


When I use the word 'Probably' I am speculating. I do not choose and would not advise building upon speculation.

Keith


Hi Keith,

I guess I took it as expressing an opinion. OK then. Do you think it can be taken away?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:49 pm

Mark
Hi Keith,

I guess I took it as expressing an opinion. OK then. Do you think it can be taken away?

Love in Christ,
Mark


I think taken away is the wrong perspective.
A better description of the servant who buried the Talent in the ground is: not used, rejected by the recipient;
therefore reassigned.


Keith

Edited 6.23.17
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:58 pm

mark s wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


To be born of water and spirit is exampled above.
To argue the birth of the flesh is to be born of water is to argue that because they received the Holy Spirit they did not need to be baptized again with water. Scripture teaches both water and spirit are necessary, even if we have already received the Spirit we are to be baptized with water. Thus are we born of both water and Spirit.

Water and Spirit; We are to be baptized with both.
Study up on baptism is one of the basics (milk not solid food); baptism is about death and rebirth.


Keith


I just found this post, I see you are talking about both water baptism and spirit baptism as both required for salvation.

I'm curious, what do you do with Ephesians 4 where God tells the church that there is only actually 1 baptism, rather than 2?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Ephesians 4:1-6
4 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

He is talking about unity here. When he says one baptism he is saying we are all baptized into one unit.
Not every believer was baptized at the same time and place in history.
So one baptism does not mean one and only one.
It is about unity. The meaning of my baptism is the same meaning as everyone else's.

Hebrews 6:1-2
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews is pretty clear there is more than one baptism by the plural phrase 'doctrine of baptisms'.
And we can all find examples of different kinds of baptisms in scripture.

Some might argue that being born of water and Spirit is a single event,
Like a contract signing is a single event; but, each party signs the contract one at a time, first one, then the other.

Keith
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:06 am

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8[b] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


When you keep reading onto Hebrews 6.... as I see it, the gift is always there, its up to you to keep the gift... some want to taste the HS and then it becomes bitter for them and they don't want it anymore.....
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:20 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:When you keep reading onto Hebrews 6.... as I see it, the gift is always there, its up to you to keep the gift... some want to taste the HS and then it becomes bitter for them and they don't want it anymore.....


Albert Barnes Commentary clarifies these verses:

The word rendered “fall away” means properly “to fall near by anyone;” “to fall in with or meet;” and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to “apostatize from,” and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin.


And Adam Clarke's Commentary:

1. I do not consider them as having any reference to any person professing Christianity.
2. They do not belong, nor are they applicable, to backsliders of any kind.
3. They belong to apostates from Christianity; to such as reject the whole Christian system, and its author, the Lord Jesus.


This seems to be an intentional, wilful choice to reject the Messiah and return to the tenants of Judaism. Of particular mention is the "washings" which the Pharisees were fastidious about.

...  since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. Heb 9:10

For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;  and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots. Mark 7:3-4

"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man." Matt 15:20
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:22 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8[b] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


When you keep reading onto Hebrews 6.... as I see it, the gift is always there, its up to you to keep the gift... some want to taste the HS and then it becomes bitter for them and they don't want it anymore.....


The key wording here is: For it is impossible.
Many people read this as they may not come back even if they want to come back.
But that is not the wording. The wording is: For it is impossible.
If a person is able to repent and return to the faith, then this verse does not apply to them.
Why? Because, if it is possible for them to return, then, they are not one for whom it is impossible.

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