Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Sat May 06, 2017 11:56 am

The following remark made by Abiding in the Adam and Sin thread started by Mark S. made me think of this topic: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

"We know that from Adam to Moses, there was no "standard" because there was no law established by God"


And this is biblical continuing up to this day.

I don't know if any of you have had the experience, but I have never heard a sermon preached on this topic.

Paul in Rom 4 said this:

14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

and also in Rom 5:

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

I welcome your comments.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby keithareilly on Sat May 06, 2017 2:08 pm

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Romans 7:7
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”[a]
Romans 5:13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

There is a standard. The law is still there to reveal sin for what it is.
Without the Law, we would not know our own sin; we would not know God's mercy.
From Adam to Moses, sin existed, but sin was not imputed as there was no transgression.
The law revealed the sin that was already in the world for what it is; sin was hidden in ignorance; the law shed light.

Today, we live under grace, knowing what sin is and that it is in the world; that it is in within us.
Mankind has gone from ignorance of sin, to slavery under the law, to freedom under grace.
But some reject that grace preferring darkness (the ignorance) where there sin is hidden from the light (the truth and understanding).

While "were there is no law there is no transgression" is true, "where there is no law there is no sin" is not true.
Better to be in the light, understanding sin for what it is, than in the darkness hiding our sin from ourselves and others.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby 1whowaits on Sun May 07, 2017 8:12 pm

Sin existed from the beginning without the written law of Moses, because men knew of God- 'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.' Rom 1

Men know that God exists, and that He has requirements of them. Men know internally that it is wrong to steal and murder, where did that knowledge come from? Knowledge is understanding of certain facts and realities, wisdom is the prudent use of knowledge.

In the garden of Eden there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, the eating of which apparently gave one an understanding of good and evil. One could then know what was good and what was evil, the knowledge would be there, but not necessarily the wisdom to use that knowledge.

Before eating of the tree man had no concept of shame, why would he as he had no knowledge or concept of evil. After eating man knew that he was naked and hid himself from God, man experienced guilt and shame, man had knowledge of evil and felt shame because he was guilty of evil.

It would appear that the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil internalized an understanding of what was good, obedience to God, and what was evil, rebellion against God, which is the basis of 'law'. So it appears that man received the basic law at the beginning, man 'ate the law' and the knowledge of it was internalized in him, perhaps in the form of what is called a conscience.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon May 08, 2017 3:48 am

what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


Evidently, God and His invisible qualities and divine nature were not always clearly seen and understood by all...

"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.  "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent....Act 17:29-30

....This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25-26  


It seems there was a period in history that there was ignorance of the one, true God. The process of enlightening nations is the record we have that culminates in man being "without excuse." This period may not pertain exclusively to the gentiles, but we cannot know the extent of the ignorance and to whom God granted the withholding of punishment as a result until the teaching/learning process was sufficient in His wisdom and forbearance. It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me." John 6:45

This may be where the term "age of innocence" originated when a child is ignorant of sin and it's consequences until a certain age/timeframe in their lives.

Just a few thoughts to consider.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby 1whowaits on Mon May 08, 2017 8:01 pm

There may have been an age of 'ignorance', but there has not been an age of 'innocence'. Men have been ignorant of God's commands and His plan of redemption, but according to Romans 1, they do know that God exists from what has been created, they know of His power and His divinity because of what they see in the world and in the heavens. And they have known this from the time of the beginning, so there has been no lapse in time of knowing of God's existence, therefore all men are without excuse of knowing that there is a God.

Because of man's ignorance of God's commands or what His plan of redemption is, He has chosen to overlook this at times and not judge them immediately in this life. But as 'all have sinned' and 'no man comes to the Father but by me', they will be judged in the life to come, though there may be degrees of punishment, some with many stripes, some with few.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 12, 2017 3:57 pm

keithareilly wrote:Matthew 5:18

Romans 5:13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

There is a standard. The law is still there to reveal sin for what it is.
Without the Law, we would not know our own sin; we would not know God's mercy.
.

Keith


Yes, I agree Keith. The law is a standard that shows man what is good and what is evil. It is a guide that instructs man on how to live on this earth under the principles the Lord has established for this world.

One of those principles is sowing and reaping or cause and effect. Our actions have consequences, good or bad, for this world depending on how we follow God’s standards.

If it is nonbelievers who sow to the flesh, those sins have already been paid at the Cross. What was not paid at the Cross is unbelief (a New Cov requirement) and this is what they will be judged and condemned for at the end of this age IF they remain in unbelief.

If it is the children of God who sow to the flesh, they will suffer temporal consequences in this world, BUT those actions are not/will not be counted or charged as “sins” because under the New Cov, there is no law to condemn the children of God. “And where there is no law there is no transgression.” Rom 4:14

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 12, 2017 4:13 pm

About Paul’s comment in Rom 5:13

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.


First about Paul's phrase, “sin was in the world before the law was given,” God was and has been dealing with men and their sins along two tracks or pathways.

1. Yes sin was definitely in the world, but as the offspring of Adam, the sins men were committing had already been counted against them. All MEN were already under condemnation and under the judgment of death for their sins.
Rom 5:15-17

2. At the same time, men were not under law ever since God banished Adam from the garden. While men now had a conscience that advised them of what was right and wrong, God had not decreed any laws that men were required to abide by or else incur punishment of death … again.

Though God did not officially institute the New Covenant until Christ did that on the Cross, He was affording men the opportunity of being saved through faith from the moment God sent Adam away from the garden.

We know this is true because Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. were saved through faith in the Word of God given to them at the time. Heb 11

Paul understood the above and this is why he wrote in Rom 5:13, “but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.” God could not count twice those sins “that were in the world” then or those sins that are in the world now.


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 17, 2017 11:28 am

1whowaits wrote:There may have been an age of 'ignorance', but there has not been an age of 'innocence'. Men have been ignorant of God's commands and His plan of redemption, but according to Romans 1, they do know that God exists from what has been created, they know of His power and His divinity because of what they see in the world and in the heavens. And they have known this from the time of the beginning, so there has been no lapse in time of knowing of God's existence, therefore all men are without excuse of knowing that there is a God.

Because of man's ignorance of God's commands or what His plan of redemption is, He has chosen to overlook this at times and not judge them immediately in this life. But as 'all have sinned' and 'no man comes to the Father but by me', they will be judged in the life to come, though there may be degrees of punishment, some with many stripes, some with few.


Hi 1whowaits,

There was a period of innocence from the time when God created Adam until the time he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as up until that time he did not have a conscience--a moral compass.

Likewise, when babies are born. Experts say that children do not become aware of right and wrong until about the age of three.

Blessings,
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 17, 2017 1:51 pm

Sonbeam wrote:There was a period of innocence from the time when God created Adam until the time he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as up until that time he did not have a conscience--a moral compass.


Adam was not created from the dust of the earth as an adult male. He was obviously capable of hearing and understanding the directive given Him to dress and keep the garden. As I mentioned in another thread, I think Adam failed to guard the garden and thus was exercising his free will and ability to make choices.

Likewise, when babies are born. Experts say that children do not become aware of right and wrong until about the age of three.


Children learn what is right and wrong by being taught by their parents. The boundaries are established within the household and the child is corrected or chastised when he fails to abide by those. The boundaries may or may not be static or fixed depending on the age of the child as he or she matures and is able to understand.

This principle is seen of God's teaching of the Hebrews throughout scripture but especially in the body of the Mosaic Law. He teaches boundaries, fair treatment, love of Himself, love of their neighbors, how to determine innocence or guilt of crimes committed either intentionally or by accident. He teaches....they learn, understand, and must make choices and suffer the consequences for those choices.

Heb 12:9  Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline (trains/educates) us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 
Heb 12:10  For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines (trains/educates) us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 17, 2017 1:54 pm

Children Learn What They Live
by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu May 18, 2017 5:50 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:There was a period of innocence from the time when God created Adam until the time he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as up until that time he did not have a conscience--a moral compass.


Adam was not created from the dust of the earth as an adult male. He was obviously capable of hearing and understanding the directive given Him to dress and keep the garden. As I mentioned in another thread, I think Adam failed to guard the garden and thus was exercising his free will and ability to make choices.


Hi abiding!

The point I was trying to make was that Adam did not have a moral compass, a conscience until AFTER he ate of the fruit.

And I believe our next thread should be on the definition of sin. But not right away. :grin:

Likewise, when babies are born. Experts say that children do not become aware of right and wrong until about the age of three.


Children learn what is right and wrong by being taught by their parents. The boundaries are established within the household and the child is corrected or chastised when he fails to abide by those. The boundaries may or may not be static or fixed depending on the age of the child as he or she matures and is able to understand.


Yes. Children are born without a conscience too. And they acquire one through their parents' instruction

Blessings,
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Spreading Salt on Thu May 18, 2017 6:05 am

God's Judgment and the Law

Romans

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 19, 2017 8:42 am

Hi Spreading Salt,

Yes, starting in Romans 1 and 2 Paul gives us an exhaustive commentary on the sinfulness of man and arrives in Rom 3 to the conclusion that no one is righteous before God. But then he says this:

Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.


:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 19, 2017 9:29 am

God's Judgment and the Law


Righteousness Through Faith


I think it's helpful to see Paul's missionary effort as directed to both Jews and Gentiles. His letters focus on the needs of each particular assembly in explaining how both can come to an understanding of one another and form a community regardless of their background. His letters to the Corinthians, for example, are geared to answering the questions they had since that city was steeped in immorality and pagan practices. The same goes for his letter to Ephesus. Romans is not meant imo to be a compliation of new doctrine per se, but rather a beautiful letter written to a fairly well-established church where Jews, Romans, Gentiles, and Greeks are meshed together as followers of Christ.

That's why we see some verses that mention the law (which the Jews were familiar with) and others that focus on righteousness apart from the law (which benefit the Gentiles). Sometimes it appears that some verses are contradicting others but in reality, Paul is contrasting them to make a point.

He clearly knows and conveys the truth that salvation is a free gift that cannot be earned by obedience to any law; Mosaic or secular. We are transformed and our minds are renews and we are now led by the Spirit as opposed to the flesh.

And I say....Thank you Jesus and AMEN! :banana:
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Mark F on Sat May 20, 2017 5:17 am

1whowaits wrote:Sin existed from the beginning without the written law of Moses, because men knew of God- 'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.' Rom 1

Men know that God exists, and that He has requirements of them. Men know internally that it is wrong to steal and murder, where did that knowledge come from? Knowledge is understanding of certain facts and realities, wisdom is the prudent use of knowledge.

In the garden of Eden there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, the eating of which apparently gave one an understanding of good and evil. One could then know what was good and what was evil, the knowledge would be there, but not necessarily the wisdom to use that knowledge.

Before eating of the tree man had no concept of shame, why would he as he had no knowledge or concept of evil. After eating man knew that he was naked and hid himself from God, man experienced guilt and shame, man had knowledge of evil and felt shame because he was guilty of evil.

It would appear that the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil internalized an understanding of what was good, obedience to God, and what was evil, rebellion against God, which is the basis of 'law'. So it appears that man received the basic law at the beginning, man 'ate the law' and the knowledge of it was internalized in him, perhaps in the form of what is called a conscience.


Yes I would agree here. I think it is also worth noting that we have no record of God telling Cain and Able what He expected of them, but we see that they bring offerings to Him. Both were symbolic although one was unacceptable. Were did Able get his idea? All on his own? I think not.

How could God ask Cain:
Gen 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Mark F on Sat May 20, 2017 6:20 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


Evidently, God and His invisible qualities and divine nature were not always clearly seen and understood by all...

"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.  "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent....Act 17:29-30

....This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25-26  


I don't think that this means what you wrote above: "Evidently, God and His invisible qualities and divine nature were not always clearly seen and understood by all..."

It appears to me you quote Acts 17 as evidence that people just didn't know, on the contrary, God overlooked their sin, meaning He didn't strike them dead because of it.

Paul refutes this statement in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."


In other words, God left them to their own even though the evidence they needed was clearly seen yet they chose to clearly ignore it.

That is like today when scientists look into the microscope and see the irreducible complexity of cells and such and declare "Aha!! Evidence for evolution!!!"

It even appears now that He is overlooking their sin. This is where your second passage comes in from Romans 3. It says God in His forbearance which means to "refrain from the enforcement of something" for His demonstration of His righteousness. This "demonstration" was when He put Christ on display for all men, principalities, and powers to see.

This doesn't mean people were unaware so God overlooked their sin, God had a reason to "look away" from it and Paul explains it succinctly in Romans 3. God will judge every man at the end of the ages........none will escape. How God will apply what people did with the knowledge the Scriptures says we all have remains to be seen. Remember the writer of Hebrews told us "our God is a consuming fire"?
It seems there was a period in history that there was ignorance of the one, true God. The process of enlightening nations is the record we have that culminates in man being "without excuse." This period may not pertain exclusively to the gentiles, but we cannot know the extent of the ignorance and to whom God granted the withholding of punishment as a result until the teaching/learning process was sufficient in His wisdom and forbearance. It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me." John 6:45

This may be where the term "age of innocence" originated when a child is ignorant of sin and it's consequences until a certain age/timeframe in their lives.

Just a few thoughts to consider.


The only age of innocence I have heard of was when Adam and Eve were without sin. For me, as far as children or people who do not have the mental ability to comprehend right from wrong, or as some say "innocence" is unknowable by us, but God is able to apply the blood of Christ to their account, after all Abraham asked, "Shall not the judge of the earth do right?"
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Mark F on Sat May 20, 2017 6:25 am

1whowaits wrote:There may have been an age of 'ignorance', but there has not been an age of 'innocence'. Men have been ignorant of God's commands and His plan of redemption, but according to Romans 1, they do know that God exists from what has been created, they know of His power and His divinity because of what they see in the world and in the heavens. And they have known this from the time of the beginning, so there has been no lapse in time of knowing of God's existence, therefore all men are without excuse of knowing that there is a God.

Because of man's ignorance of God's commands or what His plan of redemption is, He has chosen to overlook this at times and not judge them immediately in this life. But as 'all have sinned' and 'no man comes to the Father but by me', they will be judged in the life to come, though there may be degrees of punishment, some with many stripes, some with few.


I would agree with this also, it is hard to speculate how God will deal with those before Christ. It seems God will reveal their knowledge, but those since Christ that do not believe they need a savoir, that will be their judge.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Mark F on Sat May 20, 2017 7:07 am

Sonbeam wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Matthew 5:18

Romans 5:13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

There is a standard. The law is still there to reveal sin for what it is.
Without the Law, we would not know our own sin; we would not know God's mercy.
.

Keith


Yes, I agree Keith. The law is a standard that shows man what is good and what is evil. It is a guide that instructs man on how to live on this earth under the principles the Lord has established for this world.

One of those principles is sowing and reaping or cause and effect. Our actions have consequences, good or bad, for this world depending on how we follow God’s standards.

If it is nonbelievers who sow to the flesh, those sins have already been paid at the Cross. What was not paid at the Cross is unbelief (a New Cov requirement) and this is what they will be judged and condemned for at the end of this age IF they remain in unbelief.

If it is the children of God who sow to the flesh, they will suffer temporal consequences in this world, BUT those actions are not/will not be counted or charged as “sins” because under the New Cov, there is no law to condemn the children of God. “And where there is no law there is no transgression.” Rom 4:14

sonbeam

I like your thinking on this, it can be made difficult to understand for sure. I am not wholly convinced that nonbelievers sins are forgiven at the cross and not unbelief. I follow your thinking though, I would then conclude that there would be people in hell that have their sins forgiven, no? The Scripture tells us as the above posts point out that everybody knows they are a sinner, and that everybody knows about God. What we need to believe is that Jesus paid my sin debt and then God imputes His righteousness to me. I don't believe that happens until I recognize my need of Him. Everyone's sin cannot be forgiven or as I said there will be people in hell that shouldn't be, but that God applies Jesus righteousness to me when I agree with the Scriptures in that I am a sinner and Jesus took my punishment. That's where we get "believe God" not believe in God. When people say they don't believe in God, if we believe the Bible, that means they are lying. Everyone KNOWS God exists. Everyone KNOWS they sin, it is admitting it and not blaming others that we won't do.

1 John 5:9-12 is a pretty good passage about this.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


People refuse to believe the testimony that God Has given of His Son. When we believe God, then He imputes Christ's righteousness to us. The people before Jesus crucifixion believed God would provide, people since then must believe He has done this.

Surely an interesting topic.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Sun May 21, 2017 2:49 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


Evidently, God and His invisible qualities and divine nature were not always clearly seen and understood by all...

[i] "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.  "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent....Act 17:29-30


I agree Abiding. Paul was making a broad generalization in Rom 1.


About "sins committed beforehand” or “past sins,” there are two passages in the bible that reference this.

Rom 3: 22- 26

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.


2 Peter 1:9

For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.



In Rom 3:25, the “sins committed beforehand” that Paul is referring to are those sins committed by Jew and Gentile (all mankind) “for ALL have sinned” (verse 23) and “ALL are justified freely … through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (verse 24)

These sins, that ALL MEN have been cleansed from, then become “sins committed beforehand” or “past sins” for a believer when he is sealed by the Spirit and becomes a child of God under the New Covenant.

And under the New Covenant a child of God is not under law. Therefore, “where there is not law there is no transgression” that can be credited to him.

:blessyou:

sonbeam

I had said to you before that we should do a thread on sin. Well, we are already doing a thread on sin here. :lol:
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Mon May 22, 2017 2:28 pm

1whowaits wrote:There may have been an age of 'ignorance', but there has not been an age of 'innocence'. Men have been ignorant of God's commands and His plan of redemption, but according to Romans 1, they do know that God exists from what has been created, they know of His power and His divinity because of what they see in the world and in the heavens. And they have known this from the time of the beginning, so there has been no lapse in time of knowing of God's existence, therefore all men are without excuse of knowing that there is a God.

Because of man's ignorance of God's commands or what His plan of redemption is, He has chosen to overlook this at times and not judge them immediately in this life. But as 'all have sinned' and 'no man comes to the Father but by me', they will be judged in the life to come, though there may be degrees of punishment, some with many stripes, some with few.


Hi onewhowaits


MEN as the offspring of Adam, which we all have been at one time, have already been judged once for their sins. We were all found guilty, and Christ stepped in and took the punishment for us on the Cross. This is the First Death (complete separation from God).

This first judgment and this punishment were for sins committed by all MEN under the law covenant God imposed on Adam in the garden.

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.



Paul after his long discourse on the sinfulness of man gives the good news in Rom 3:22-25

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.



At the end of the age, there will be a second judgment under the second covenant (the new covenant). And MEN, who will have remained of the generation of Adam because of their unbelief, themselves will suffer the punishment for their unbelief. There will not be another Mediator/Redeemer. And the punishment will be the Second Death.

Heb 10

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.



God’s plan of salvation is very symmetric: two covenants, two judgments, two punishments of death, etc.

And praise be to God. His children will not experience the Second Death.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Mark F wrote:
I like your thinking on this, it can be made difficult to understand for sure. I am not wholly convinced that nonbelievers sins are forgiven at the cross and not unbelief. I follow your thinking though, I would then conclude that there would be people in hell that have their sins forgiven, no?


Hi Mark F,

I apologize for not getting to your comments sooner Mark. You raised some very important points that directly impact the true gospel of our Lord.

Your comments I highlighted above beg the question; which sins and whose sins did Christ bleed and die for on the Cross?

It is accepted church doctrine that Christ died for all sins, past, present and future, to include unbelief according to some. Although there is no scripture that specifically says this, this is true in one instance as I’ll explain below.

But which past, present, and future sins and whose past present and future sins did Christ pay for?

The answer lies in finding out under which covenant were/will those sins be committed and charged.
The following scriptures give us the answer.

Rom 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—


Rom 5:16
Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.


Rom 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


The above verses tell us specifically that it was through Adam that all MEN were condemned as sinners. And Adam sinned under the law covenant God imposed on him.

Therefore, Christ came to pay for sins that were charged and will be charged under that covenant through the end of the age..

If Christ had paid for unbelief on the Cross, then all men would be saved. There would be no need for another judgment at the end of the age.

But we know from the many scriptures that those who do not believe the gospel will suffer a second death. So apparently, the first death that Christ suffered for ALL did not cover unbelief.

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 24, 2017 4:58 pm

Mark F wrote:
I like your thinking on this, it can be made difficult to understand for sure. I am not wholly convinced that nonbelievers sins are forgiven at the cross and not unbelief. I follow your thinking though, I would then conclude that there would be people in hell that have their sins forgiven, no?


Yes, that is correct. Those men who are condemned to "hell" will have had their sins forgiven under the first covenant.
But that will not do them any good.

For at the last/second judgment they will have been condemned for their unbelief and rejection of the gospel.

The following passages will apply to them:

Matt 12:43-45

43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”


Heb 10

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?



The process of salvation has two parts as our Lord told Nicodemus: the birth of water and the birth of the Spirit

All men received the birth of water (cleansing from sin) on the Cross.

But not all will receive the birth of the Spirit. Those men will be condemned.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 24, 2017 7:07 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
The process of salvation has two parts as our Lord told Nicodemus: the birth of water and the birth of the Spirit

All men received the birth of water (cleansing from sin) on the Cross.

But not all will receive the birth of the Spirit. Those men will be condemned.


Sonbeam, Jesus clarified what He meant by the birth of water. He contrasted the birth in the flesh to the birth in the spirit. He does not refer to the birth of water as cleansing from sin on the cross.

John 3:6  "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The birth of the flesh vs. the birth of the spirit. He again contrasts earthly things to heavenly things in verse 12.

Nicodemus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah even though there were over 300 references to Him in the OT, but he knew God must be with Jesus because of the miracles he did. But Jesus tells him the reason he can't "see" the Kingdom of God is because he needs to be born of the Spirit. And lastly, Jesus tells him that those who believe in Him will have eternal life.

...  so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. John 3:15 

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16


In summary...the birth of the flesh is just life to the body. The birth of the Spirit comes through belief in the Son of Man and enables sight into spiritual things. Salvation/eternal life comes through belief in Jesus.

But not all will receive the birth of the Spirit. Those men will be condemned.


Would you please clarify how one receives the birth of the Spirit? And where does that leave all those living in the previous 4,000 yrs. of scriptural history?
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu May 25, 2017 11:30 am

Great questions Abiding. Will give you a reply soon. :grin:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 26, 2017 2:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
The process of salvation has two parts as our Lord told Nicodemus: the birth of water and the birth of the Spirit

All men received the birth of water (cleansing from sin) on the Cross.

But not all will receive the birth of the Spirit. Those men will be condemned.


Sonbeam, Jesus clarified what He meant by the birth of water. He contrasted the birth in the flesh to the birth in the spirit. He does not refer to the birth of water as cleansing from sin on the cross.

John 3:6  "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The birth of the flesh vs. the birth of the spirit. He again contrasts earthly things to heavenly things in verse 12.



Yes Jesus did contrast the earthly vs the heavenly things, but He did not equate the birth of flesh as being the birth of water.

If we carefully look at what He says in this John 3 passage, we’ll see that He was speaking of two spiritual/heavenly births rather than one physical and one spiritual.

Notice that in verse 5, instead of addressing Nicodemus’ bewilderment at his assumption that “being born again” means having to be born again physically, Jesus first says this:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus here expands on his initial “born again” comment by further specifying that it would take two births before anyone could enter the kingdom of God.

Also notice that Jesus said “born of water.” He didn’t say “born of the flesh” which is the assumption Nicodemus made.

To dispel this and make sure Nicodemus understood Jesus was speaking of spiritual/heavenly births, then Jesus goes on to contrast the flesh/physical birth with the spiritual/heavenly birth.

As recorded in the OT, water was used extensively for cleansing/purification rites. Undoubtedly this is why Jesus used the phrase “birth of water” to symbolize the cleansing from sin He was going to effect for all on the Cross.

Later on by washing His disciples feet just prior to His crucifixion, our Lord used this not only as a call to His apostles to serve others, but also as a symbolic action to forecast what He was going to do for them and all mankind on the Cross.


Matt 26: 28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 26, 2017 2:35 pm

Abiding said:

Would you please clarify how one receives the birth of the Spirit? And where does that leave all those living in the previous 4,000 yrs. of scriptural history?


God effects the birth of the Spirit in a person when He sees the response of faith to His Word/Gospel in a person’s heart.

This is how Noah, Abraham, and others received the birth of the Spirit. They believe in the Word of God given to them at the time.

Going back to the John 3 passage we’ve been discussing, we see that twice Christ very emphatically said thefollowing:

3. Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”


And again in verse 5:

5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


Therefore, we can safely deduce, and scriptures like Gen 7 and 15:4-6 and Heb Chap 11 testify to this:
that those living before Christ went to the Cross were saved the way Jesus declared in John Chap 3.

However, the order of their salvation was:

they were born of the Spirit first, but they did not receive the birth of water until Christ accomplished the forgiveness of their sins on the Cross.

These were the sins Romans 3:25 talks about:

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished


Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., and also Christ’s apostles, John the Baptist, Mary and any other believers whom God birthed of His Spirit before the Cross were part of this group.

For all of us born after the Cross, the order of salvation is:

We have received the birth of water (cleansing from sin on the Cross) first, and then we receive the birth of the Spirit when we believe the Gospel.

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 26, 2017 4:24 pm

Hi sonbeam,

I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on the contrast between the physical and spiritual births in John 3:5. I think there's enough evidence to make that distinction. I noticed also the term "born again" contrasting the physical/perishable with the spiritual/imperishable in 1 Peter 1:23-25

.... since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.”


Again, the physical, perishable birth is contrasted with the spiritual, imperishable. Just as physical material (grass, flowers, etc. perish), the spiritual (word of the Lord) remains forever.

And again in John 3:12, Jesus contrasts the "earthly things" with the "spiritual things."

John 3:12  If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 

But that's ok if we see that differently.

As recorded in the OT, water was used extensively for cleansing/purification rites. Undoubtedly this is why Jesus used the phrase “birth of water” to symbolize the cleansing from sin He was going to effect for all on the Cross.


But Jesus doesn't reference the cleansing/purification rites of the OT. There are a multitude of quotes and references to the OT in the NT, but this passage doesn't contain one. Nor does he reference the cleansing in relation to the cross.

The Jews saw baptism as a ritual that represented a number of purposes; i.e. the washing away of sins, an act remembering the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and others saw it as a remembrance of the salvation from the flood that Noah and his family experienced and Jesus spoke of a baptism He must endure.

There are many views on baptism; it's purpose, who can baptize, who can be baptized, etc. But Jesus makes no mention of the word baptism, cleansing, purification or any relationship to the cross or sin in that passage in to Nicodemus. Later in that chapter we find John the Baptist baptizing many who were confessing their sins. Surely Nicodemus would have recognized the relationship of water to baptism or ceremonial cleansing, but he did not. Both he and Jesus were focused on the earthly birth as opposed to the spiritual.

OK...again...it's ok if we disagree, but I do think you are reading the symbolic cleansing to that of the cross. In fact, the cross is spoken of more accurately in terms of sacrifice and forgiveness of sin.

When Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, he clearly related it to the task most often performed by servants as customary for washing the dust off the the visitors feet. He was setting an example for them (and us) to be servants to one another.

"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.  "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. John 13:14-15 
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 26, 2017 4:51 pm

However, the order of their salvation was:

they were born of the Spirit first, but they did not receive the birth of water until Christ accomplished the forgiveness of their sins on the Cross.


According to scripture, the sins in the OT were forgiven when the High Priest offered blood sacrifices for their unintentional sins. (Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin). But in the New covenant, the blood of Jesus (our High Priest) brings remission of sin once for all time instead of the blood of goats and calves. Romans 7 and 9:

For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Heb 7:26-27

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Heb 9:15  
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Sat May 27, 2017 10:09 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
However, the order of their salvation was:

they were born of the Spirit first, but they did not receive the birth of water until Christ accomplished the forgiveness of their sins on the Cross.


According to scripture, the sins in the OT were forgiven when the High Priest offered blood sacrifices for their unintentional sins. (Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin). But in the New covenant, the blood of Jesus (our High Priest) brings remission of sin once for all time instead of the blood of goats and calves. Romans 7 and 9:



I am not sure of what you are trying to say here Abiding? Are you saying that all the saints since Abel were cleansed/forgiven of their sins by the provisions of the Sinai Covenant God made with the Israelites?

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat May 27, 2017 11:52 am

Sonbeam wrote:I am not sure of what you are trying to say here Abiding? Are you saying that all the saints since Abel were cleansed/forgiven of their sins by the provisions of the Sinai Covenant God made with the Israelites?


Salvation has always been based on faith. There has always been a relationship between God and His people throughout history. The relationship from the first parents (where the Savior was promised) to the "building" of a nation (via Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, etc) shows the trajectory toward the birth of the promised Messiah. So our scriptural history shows the faith of those who believed God and abided by His Words and His direction. It's progressive in nature so it shouldn't be compartmentalized any more than what scripture shows.

When you started this thread, you pointed to two scriptures that mentioned Romans 4:14-15 and Romans 5:13. A few verses later, however, clarify verses 14-15 by saying:

Rom 4:16  For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all...

Rom 4:19  Without becoming weak in faith...

Rom 4:20 ... yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith


In other words, it has always been faith that leads to the covenant of grace. Hebrews 11 lists the OT saints who lived their lives based on their faith in God. That chapter concludes with the evidence that they " gained approval through their faith..." They did not live to see the promise of the Savior (prophesied over 350 times back to Gen. 3), but by faith they looked forward to the cross as by faith we look back toward the cross.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Heb 11:6

Those in the OT apparently understood the importance of sacrifice since as early as Gen. 4 we see Cain and Able offering a sacrifice/offering, and Abraham offering a sacrifice (of his son as a type), Jacob offering a sacrifice in Gen. 31, etc. The substance of those sacrifices/offerings to God changed over the course of time and was more or less concretized and defined specifically in the Law of Moses.

I arrived at my understanding by observing the whole Bible in it's historical, progressive context. Hope it makes sense
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat May 27, 2017 12:10 pm

Sonbeam, I think we are pretty much in agreement, but your comment of Fri May 26, 2017 5:35 pm used phrases I don't find accurate in that they are not found in scripture imo. This one is an example of conveying confusion for me..."This is how Noah, Abraham, and others received the "birth of the Spirit." If you know of scripture that uses those words in the lives of Noah, Abraham, etc. I will understand why you have used them.

The other instance where you seemed to compare the faith of the OT saints with the birth of water and the spirit is this one:

However, the order of their salvation was:

they were born of the Spirit first, but they did not receive the birth of water until Christ accomplished the forgiveness of their sins on the Cross.


Again, it may just be a matter of semantics, but I think it's important to use words scripture does for clarification. I was also curious about your use of the term "order of their salvation" as I have heard that term used by both Calvinists and Reformed.

OK, at any rate, hopefully we are getting closer to being on the same page. :grin: I've become a rather "nit-picker" when it comes to words and phrases with the advent of new Bibles coming out; i.e. the Passion (NAR) and the ESV effort to change the words and meaning of Gen. 3:16. and is the Bible of choice for Calvinists.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Exit40 on Sun May 28, 2017 5:51 am

Abiding in His Word wrote: If you know of scripture that uses those words in the lives of Noah, Abraham, etc. I will understand why you have used them....

... Again, it may just be a matter of semantics, but I think it's important to use words scripture does for clarification.


I have come to believe the following phrase demonstrates a 'born again in the Spirit' for those it is bestowed on. While there are not many instances of use in the OT, I believe the meaning is clear enough, as it can be for an individual or a nation that finds itself under this phrase...

Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

God Bless You

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 28, 2017 9:08 am

Exit40 wrote:I have come to believe the following phrase demonstrates a 'born again in the Spirit' for those it is bestowed on. While there are not many instances of use in the OT, I believe the meaning is clear enough, as it can be for an individual or a nation that finds itself under this phrase...

Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.


There is no doubt God empowered some in the OT for His purposes. Here are some that specifically mention God filling some with the Spirit of God.

    Exo 31:3  "I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship...

    1Sa_10:10  When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

    2Ch_24:20  Then the Spirit of God came on Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest....

My question to sonbeam was this:

Would you please clarify how one receives the birth of the Spirit? And where does that leave all those living in the previous 4,000 yrs. of scriptural history?


So, while some were filled with the Spirit of God in the OT to accomplish His purposes, scripture foretells of the future when His Spirit will be poured out on all mankind and whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be delivered. Mt. Zion is the place where deliverance of the remnant will happen. Joel 2:

Mt. Zion (New Covenant of Grace) is contrasted with Mt. Sinai (Old Covenant of Law) in Hebrews 12. Nicodemus missed the contrast Jesus was making between a Jew born under the old with a Jew born under the new.

Those who lived in the OT were righteous because of their faith. Some stumbled because they did not have faith, but were still living under the law of Mt. Sinai.

It was sonbeam's use of the term "birthed of the Spirit" in the OT that I questioned as well as applying "born of water" to the cross.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Tue May 30, 2017 3:17 pm

Hi Abiding,

And David have you been reading what we've been discussing here? I'm glad you've joined this discussion.

I am not sure if you overlooked or read it and did not really take into account the following comments and scriptures I quoted in my previous post:

sonbeam: Going back to the John 3 passage we’ve been discussing, we see that twice Christ very emphatically said the following:


3. Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”


And again in verse 5:



5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


sonbeam: Therefore, we can safely deduce, and scriptures like Gen 7 and 15:4-6 and Heb Chap 11 testify to this:
that those living before Christ went to the Cross were saved the way Jesus declared in John Chap 3.


Are we in agreement on this? that those that became children of God before the Cross had to have been born of the Spirit according to the two scriptures I quoted above?

Though I realize that most believers think that salvation is only one transaction, not two as the scriptures testify.



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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Tue May 30, 2017 3:36 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:I am not sure of what you are trying to say here Abiding? Are you saying that all the saints since Abel were cleansed/forgiven of their sins by the provisions of the Sinai Covenant God made with the Israelites?


Salvation has always been based on faith. There has always been a relationship between God and His people throughout history. The relationship from the first parents (where the Savior was promised) to the "building" of a nation (via Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, etc) shows the trajectory toward the birth of the promised Messiah. So our scriptural history shows the faith of those who believed God and abided by His Words and His direction. It's progressive in nature so it shouldn't be compartmentalized any more than what scripture shows.


I take it then that your answer to my question above is No. Am I right?

For we know that cleansing/forgiveness for the sins of all men came on the Cross.

In regards to your comment about "salvation has always been by faith," I would say it this way.

The birth of the Spirit has always been through faith. Since Christ had to first obtain the forgiveness of sins for all on the Cross. Then men have to respond with faith to the proclamation of Christ's gospel.



Those in the OT apparently understood the importance of sacrifice since as early as Gen. 4 we see Cain and Able offering a sacrifice/offering, and Abraham offering a sacrifice (of his son as a type), Jacob offering a sacrifice in Gen. 31, etc. The substance of those sacrifices/offerings to God changed over the course of time and was more or less concretized and defined specifically in the Law of Moses.

I arrived at my understanding by observing the whole Bible in it's historical, progressive context. Hope it makes sense


Thank you for your answers Abiding. I think our discussion is very helpful in defining for each of us where we stand in our convictions about the process of salvation.

Though your comments above are a little puzzling to me. Are you saying that those sacrifices, prior to those prescribed by God for the Israelites in the Sinai Cov, were offered by men for the forgiveness of their sins?

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Tue May 30, 2017 3:53 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Sonbeam, I think we are pretty much in agreement, but your comment of Fri May 26, 2017 5:35 pm used phrases I don't find accurate in that they are not found in scripture imo. This one is an example of conveying confusion for me..."This is how Noah, Abraham, and others received the "birth of the Spirit." If you know of scripture that uses those words in the lives of Noah, Abraham, etc. I will understand why you have used them.

The other instance where you seemed to compare the faith of the OT saints with the birth of water and the spirit is this one:

However, the order of their salvation was:

they were born of the Spirit first, but they did not receive the birth of water until Christ accomplished the forgiveness of their sins on the Cross.


Again, it may just be a matter of semantics, but I think it's important to use words scripture does for clarification. I was also curious about your use of the term "order of their salvation" as I have heard that term used by both Calvinists and Reformed.


No, the term I use is entirely different from theirs. I'm sure they'd disagree with my definition. :grin: Their "limited atonement" doctrine would not allow to even consider it. :lol:

OK, at any rate, hopefully we are getting closer to being on the same page. :grin: I've become a rather "nit-picker" when it comes to words and phrases with the advent of new Bibles coming out; i.e. the Passion (NAR) and the ESV effort to change the words and meaning of Gen. 3:16. and is the Bible of choice for Calvinists.


I think we are on the same page in many ways Abiding.
God bless you!

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 30, 2017 7:32 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Thank you for your answers Abiding. I think our discussion is very helpful in defining for each of us where we stand in our convictions about the process of salvation.

Though your comments above are a little puzzling to me. Are you saying that those sacrifices, prior to those prescribed by God for the Israelites in the Sinai Cov, were offered by men for the forgiveness of their sins?


Sonbeam, the word "sacrifices or offerings" is found in the NASB 269 times with a variety of meanings and purposes. Noah offered a burnt offering; Jacob and Abraham, likewise. It may have been a tribute, a thanksgiving offering, etc. but I'm not sure we are told the purpose.

After the formation of the Levitical priesthood, however, sacrifices were made for the purpose of forgiveness of the sins of the Israelites. Then after Jesus', our High Priest, sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, there was no need for the priesthood to continually offer sacrifices as Jesus did so "once for all time."

For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;  who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Heb. 7:26-27  

So I find no reference to offerings and sacrifices prior to the Mosaic Law for the express purpose of remittance of sin. As I have said many times, scripture is progressive in it's historical and spiritual revelation.

In regards to your comment about "salvation has always been by faith," I would say it this way.

The birth of the Spirit has always been through faith.


Those living in the OT were not born of the Spirit. As I mentioned above, some were most certainly empowered by the Spirit of God for His purposes, but that was limited only to a few. I posted several scriptures as evidence of that. Certainly the prophets were led by the Spirit of God as Ezekiel mentioned in 11:24: And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God to the exiles in Chaldea. So the vision that I had seen left me. 

Since Christ had to first obtain the forgiveness of sins for all on the Cross.


'The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven. Num 15:28

....and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt." Lev 6:7

.... for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD. Lev 16:30


On the day of Atonement, the sin offering affected the forgiveness of sin.

Then men have to respond with faith to the proclamation of Christ's gospel.


hmm...not sure that those living 4,000 yrs. ago were aware of the gospel although Isaiah 61 does mention the good news of the coming Messiah . They did believe God by faith and it was reckoned to them as right standing/right relationship with the Lord.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Exit40 on Wed May 31, 2017 6:33 am

Sonbeam wrote:Hi Abiding,

And David have you been reading what we've been discussing here? I'm glad you've joined this discussion.


Yes, I am reading along. Good discussion with great points being made. As for OT believers, one would question whether or not they are saved by being Faithful to the Law. As the Law cannot save, no, but they are justified before God for doing so, and so qualified to be saved eventually by the work of the Cross. No one was saved except Enoch and Isaiah, who were translated and were no more here on Earth. Certainly the Prophets such as Ezekiel, who experienced the Presence of the Lord in their person, would be eventually saved too, how could they not be ? As for us, we are believers, but can we say we are born again of the Spirit ? How do we know we are ? What are the provisions for us to accomplish this in our person, specifically, to be akin to the Prophets ? Must we receive the Holy Spirit and experience the power of Him ? How do we know specifically ?

God Bless You

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 31, 2017 2:30 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Thank you for your answers Abiding. I think our discussion is very helpful in defining for each of us where we stand in our convictions about the process of salvation.

Though your comments above are a little puzzling to me. Are you saying that those sacrifices, prior to those prescribed by God for the Israelites in the Sinai Cov, were offered by men for the forgiveness of their sins?


So I find no reference to offerings and sacrifices prior to the Mosaic Law for the express purpose of remittance of sin. As I have said many times, scripture is progressive in it's historical and spiritual revelation.


Yes, there is no reference regarding sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins prior to the Sinai Cov. And even when God decreed sacrifices for sin to be performed, those only applied to the Israelite nation as you mentioned. And only a shadow of what was to come and not the reality as Heb 10 declares:

10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.



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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 31, 2017 2:41 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
In regards to your comment about "salvation has always been by faith," I would say it this way.

The birth of the Spirit has always been through faith.


Those living in the OT were not born of the Spirit. As I mentioned above, some were most certainly empowered by the Spirit of God for His purposes, but that was limited only to a few. I posted several scriptures as evidence of that. Certainly the prophets were led by the Spirit of God as Ezekiel mentioned in 11:24: And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God to the exiles in Chaldea. So the vision that I had seen left me. 



As you’ve mentioned several times Abiding, spiritual revelation in scripture has been progressive. The fact that the OT Hebrew scriptures do not specifically spell out that a person was born of the Spirit or was indwelt by the Spirit during that time does not preclude that in fact, they were.

Our interpretation of the OT Hebrew writings must be Christ centered. In other words, we cannot interpret the OT as though it was a closed cannon and Christ hadn’t come and the New Testament had not been written. This is the position of Judaism.

Christ is the final authoritative interpreter, along with the Holy Spirit inspired writings of the apostles, of the OT Hebrew writings.

Therefore, Christ’s emphatic pronouncements in John Chap 3 are the final Word of God on how a person is saved:

3. Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”


And again in verse 5:

5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


Therefore, this is how the saints mentioned in Heb 11 undoubtedly became righteous: first by being born again of the Spirit through faith in the Word of God given to them at the time, followed by the redemption from sin that Christ obtained on the Cross for all men.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 31, 2017 2:55 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Then men have to respond with faith to the proclamation of Christ's gospel.


hmm...not sure that those living 4,000 yrs. ago were aware of the gospel although Isaiah 61 does mention the good news of the coming Messiah . They did believe God by faith and it was reckoned to them as right standing/right relationship with the Lord.


My quote above was in reference to men born after the Cross.

But for Abraham, for instance, the gospel, i.e., good news was that God would give him an heir who would be his own flesh and blood and also numerous offspring. Abraham believed the Word of God given to him at the time.



2 But Abram said, “Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.”

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 31, 2017 2:58 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:

And David have you been reading what we've been discussing here? I'm glad you've joined this discussion.


Yes, I am reading along. Good discussion with great points being made. . . . . . . . . . . . Certainly the Prophets such as Ezekiel, who experienced the Presence of the Lord in their person, would be eventually saved too, how could they not be ?

As for us, we are believers, but can we say we are born again of the Spirit ? How do we know we are ? What are the provisions for us to accomplish this in our person, specifically, to be akin to the Prophets ? Must we receive the Holy Spirit and experience the power of Him ? How do we know specifically ?

God Bless You

David


According to Rom 8:16, there is one very specific way to find out. We ask our heavenly Father for confirmation.

Romans 8:16

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.



:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 31, 2017 6:06 pm

Sonbeam wrote:As you’ve mentioned several times Abiding, spiritual revelation in scripture has been progressive. The fact that the OT Hebrew scriptures do not specifically spell out that a person was born of the Spirit or was indwelt by the Spirit during that time does not preclude that in fact, they were.


Scripture is very much an accurate record of historic, progressive events, prophecies, and their fulfillment. That's why we say scripture interprets scripture. Here is a list of 353 OT prophecies and their fulfillment. The OT prophecies are listed in chronological order and their NT fulfillment within every book in the NT. It is unfortunate imo that the books of our Bibles are not written in chronological order, but here is a list where they are arranged as close to the dates as possible.

Sonbeam, we really shouldn't try to make scripture say something it doesn't. What it does say is that some in the OT were filled with the Spirit of God for a specific purpose. We should see those instances as they are recorded but also see them as demonstrations of the power that which would be available and poured out on individuals from all nations on the feast of Pentecost foretold by the prophet Joel.

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"  But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38-39  

Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;  for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Act 1:4-5 


And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.  And dwelling at Jerusalem there were Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven. Act 2:4-5

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:  "And it shall be in the last days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh. Act 2:16-17 


This baptism in the Holy Spirit is different than the empowerment of those OT saints for a specific service as Jesus said the Holy Spirit would abide with us and live in us. John 14:17
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Exit40 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:29 am

Sonbeam wrote:According to Rom 8:16, there is one very specific way to find out. We ask our heavenly Father for confirmation.

Romans 8:16

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.



:blessyou:

sonbeam


How many believers do you suppose ask according to this Scripture ? I am asking because many say they are Born again, but who, or which believers, state God has confirmed this in them.

God Bless

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:00 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:As you’ve mentioned several times Abiding, spiritual revelation in scripture has been progressive. The fact that the OT Hebrew scriptures do not specifically spell out that a person was born of the Spirit or was indwelt by the Spirit during that time does not preclude that in fact, they were.


Sonbeam, we really shouldn't try to make scripture say something it doesn't. What it does say is that some in the OT were filled with the Spirit of God for a specific purpose. We should see those instances as they are recorded but also see them as demonstrations of the power that which would be available and poured out on individuals from all nations on the feast of Pentecost foretold by the prophet Joel.


Abiding,

Are you saying that God's final Word did not come through His Son? That we should give more weight to what the prophets only saw in part before the Cross rather than what our Lord declared while He walked this earth before the Cross?

Let's take a look at these scriptures:

Heb 1

[ God’s Final Word: His Son ]

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.


At the transfiguration where the Law and the prophets were represented:


Matt 17

3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”


and in the gospel of John:

John 1:14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:18 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:As you’ve mentioned several times Abiding, spiritual revelation in scripture has been progressive. The fact that the OT Hebrew scriptures do not specifically spell out that a person was born of the Spirit or was indwelt by the Spirit during that time does not preclude that in fact, they were.


Scripture is very much an accurate record of historic, progressive events, prophecies, and their fulfillment. That's why we say scripture interprets scripture.


Agree. And this is why I posted the scriptures in the previous post. This is God's progressive revelation through His Son.

Sonbeam, we really shouldn't try to make scripture say something it doesn't.


I agree. This is why I posted the above scriptures in the previous post, and I'm posting the ones below which I've posted before a couple of times:

I've said before that our interpretation of the OT Hebrew writings must be Christ centered. In other words, we cannot interpret the OT as though it was a closed cannon and Christ hadn’t come and the New Testament had not been written. This is the position of Judaism.

Christ is the final authoritative interpreter and final Word, along with the Holy Spirit inspired writings of the apostles, of the OT Hebrew writings and He gave us the final Word on how a person enter His Kingdom.

Therefore, Christ’s emphatic pronouncements in John Chap 3 are in fact the final Word of God on how a person is saved:


3. Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”


And again in verse 5:

5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


Now, if Christ was telling the truth here, then everyone, including the saints before the Cross has to be born again of the Spirit. No, it is not spelled out in so many words in the OT writings. But God had to have effected the birth of the Spirit for men prior to the Cross for them to have become children of God and be able to enter His Kingdom.

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:42 am

Exit40 wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:According to Rom 8:16, there is one very specific way to find out. We ask our heavenly Father for confirmation.

Romans 8:16

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.



:blessyou:

sonbeam


How many believers do you suppose ask according to this Scripture ? I am asking because many say they are Born again, but who, or which believers, state God has confirmed this in them.

God Bless

David


I really wouldn't think many believers actually ask. Probably not very many, since I myself have never heard any preaching on this, with one exception many years ago. Needless to say, I immediately started asking our Lord if I was His. :grin:

I do know from my experience that many believers do have doubts about their salvation. Even those who are in denominations that preach the security of the believer. So getting direct assurance from God would really help.

But only God looks on the heart and knows those that are His. Since we can't, we need to extend His love and grace as the Spirit enables us to all who claim to be His.

:blessyou:

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:54 pm

Abiding,

Are you saying that God's final Word did not come through His Son? That we should give more weight to what the prophets only saw in part before the Cross rather than what our Lord declared after the Cross?


I've said before that our interpretation of the OT Hebrew writings must be Christ centered. In other words, we cannot interpret the OT as though it was a closed cannon and Christ hadn’t come and the New Testament had not been written. This is the position of Judaism.


I didn't give "more weight" to the words of the prophets, but neither should we ignore them. The fact that there are 353 prophecies in the OT that referenced the coming of the Messiah does, however, prove the historic, progressive, forward trajectory of the Bible and makes them very important. Many Jews are finding Jesus based on the prophetic words of Isaiah, for example, describing the coming of the Messiah. Jesus quoted Isaiah to the Jews in the Synagogue so they would see Him as the fulfillment of that prophecy. AndJust as the NT prophecies look forward to a future fulfillment (which is the focus of this discussion board), the OT looked forward to the fulfillment of promises and prophecies.

All the promises of God in the Old Testament are fulfilled in the NT in Jesus Christ. Jesus said He had come to fulfill all the prophecies of the OT. Here are references to the evidence that is the case:

Matt. 2:17; 13:14; 26:54; 27:9;
Mark 1:15; 13:4; 15:28;
Luke 1:20; 4:21; 21:22,24; 22:16,37; 24:44;
John 13:18; 17:12;
Acts 1:16; 3:18; 12:25; 13:27,33;
Rom. 8:4; 13:8;
Gal. 5:14;
James. 2:23;
Rev. 17:17.

So the OT is very important to our understanding the whole counsel of God and His working in the lives of His people...step by step...first with individuals who were righteous; then building a nation to call His people; then through Moses and the Law, Judges, Kings, Prophets, and finally to the New Covenant prophesied to include, not only the Jews, but the Gentiles as well. It's a book of history and only by seeing it as such can we appreciate the love of God, His longsuffering, His forbearance, and His Wisdom.

To ignore the whole is like buying a new novel at Barnes and Nobel and starting to read at chapter 5!

5. Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Now, if Christ was telling the truth here, then everyone, including the saints before the Cross has to be born again of the Spirit.


I think you are equating the term "Kingdom of God" to eternity and while it may in some instances, Jesus specifically announced that the Kingdom of God was at hand, or here, or has come. It is a spiritual Kingdom which Nicodemus cannot see or enter because He needs the infilling of the Holy Spirit to see and comprehend spiritual things prophesied formerly.

And He said, To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. But to others I speak in parables, so that seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:10

Rom_14:17  for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1Cor._4:20  For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.


The phrase Kingdom of God is not mentioned in the OT as far as I can find, but is found 65 times in the NT which makes sense since Jesus Himself heralded the Kingdom of God....

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15  

Now there may be references to the Kingdom as the afterlife but for most often it's referencing the arrival of the long-awaited Messiah and His Kingdom; i.e. the new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah:

Jer 31:31  "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.  "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.Jer. 31:31-33 

First to the Jews and then to the nations....that's why you see Jesus choosing disciples who were Jewish, speaking to Nicodemus, choosing Saul, the Pharisee, etc. and eventually to the Gentiles.

The arrival of the New Covenant includes the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon all nations.
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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:06 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
The fact that there are 353 prophecies in the OT that referenced the coming of the Messiah does, however, prove the historic, progressive, forward trajectory of the Bible and makes them very important. ....................................
All the promises of God in the Old Testament are fulfilled in the NT in Jesus Christ. Jesus said He had come to fulfill all the prophecies of the OT.


Abiding,

That God has fulfilled the numerous prophecies/Word He gave through the OT prophets regarding Christ is a fact. God always fulfills His Word. I've made no comments to the contrary.

But now in these last days, God has sent His final Word regarding salvation through His Son.

Specifically, Christ’s Word in John 3:5 that we are discussing here:

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.




Christ has left no wiggle room for anyone to modify His Word and interpret/say that No One means something else other than that.

Therefore, we must come to the conclusion that all men, all Adam’s offspring must be born again of water and the Spirit in order to be saved (enter the kingdom).

I know you don’t agree with this Abiding.

But think about this. Christ tasted death for all men and washed/cleansed all men from sin obtaining forgiveness for all men.

And the benefits of the Cross have been applied to all men—all the way back to Adam and forward to all his offspring ever to be born.

Mark 3:28, 2 Cor 5:19, Rom 6:10, Heb 2:9b, Heb 10:12, 1John 2:2


Can you provide an NT scripture that says John 3:5 only applies to certain men and not to all men, the offspring of Adam?

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Re: Where there is no law there is no transgression.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:57 am

Sonbeam wrote:Therefore, we must come to the conclusion that all men, all Adam’s offspring must be born again of water and the Spirit in order to be saved (enter the kingdom).

I know you don’t agree with this Abiding.


It's the associations you have drawn from that verse that I disagree with, Sonbeam.

For example:

    - you mentioned the association of water in that verse to the "washing" of sins at the cross. (paraphrased from my memory of previous posts above)

    - you seem to be ignoring the very important context regarding the Jewish Pharisee Jesus is speaking to

    - you seem to be overlooking the announcement by Jesus that the Kingdom of God had arrived (meaning it's a present reality)

    - we cannot overlook the Jesus' reference that one cannot "see" the Kingdom (because it's a spiritual Kingdom)

    - knowing that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is here and is spiritual, we cannot interpret it as "entering" eternity.

    - the coming or birth in the Holy Spirit is spoken of in future terms in the NT by both John the Baptist and Jesus...i.e. Act 1:5 .... for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Can you provide an NT scripture that says John 3:5 only applies to certain men and not to all men, the offspring of Adam?


Again, Jesus confronts Nicodemus with the fact that although he is a "teacher of Israel" he does not comprehend the fulfillment of the promise of the OT prophecies. He does not see and cannot enter because the Kingdom because it is spiritual in nature...not the literal, physical one the Jews were awaiting. He spoke about seeing and entering the spiritual Kingdom that had already arrived.

So John 3:5 is referring specifically to the Jews and also to the nations (Gentiles). Jesus told the disciples His ministry was first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5-6) Later Paul's ministry was primarily to the Gentiles. Paul recognized that a partial hardening had happened until the fullness of the Gentiles was fulfilled.

My conclusion is based, therefore, on the fact that Jesus later (verses 14-17) mentions the word salvation, saved and the word eternity or heaven, in an effort to convince Nichodemus that He is the long-awaited Messiah and whoever believes in Him will be saved. But this is not mentioned in the verses 3-5.
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