Adam's Sin; My Sin

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 11, 2017 9:46 am

Sonbeam said:
The biblical truth is that Adam and the woman had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER the man ate. Gen 3:7, 3:22.

However, most believers choose to totally ignore this. They have been thoroughly indoctrinated into believing the notion that Adam deliberately and with evil, willful intent chose to disobey God so he could exercise his own authority over His. The Genesis account does not support this, but this falsehood is set in stone in the minds of many.


If you read Gen. 3, you will see God saying...

(to the serpent) "Because you have ...."

(to Adam) "Because you have ...."

No such "Because you have..." words were spoken to Eve obviously because her sin was unintentional as opposed to that of the serpent and Adam's willful, deliberate disobedience.

So the Genesis account does support a willful intent.

It's not a matter of "indoctrination" or believing a "notion," because scripture gives evidence of Adam's deliberate disobedience where his disobedience is contrasted with Christ's obedience:

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:19  

and

Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.


The "indoctrination" or "notion" comes in the effort to see the words in Gen. 3 to the serpent, the man, and the woman as punishments. The "consequences" were noted as a result of their expulsion from the garden where they would experience sorrow and suffering. God's mercy is evidenced in that that He did not wish them to live forever experiencing such sorrow and suffering, so the Tree of Life would no longer be available to them. Only the ground and the serpent were cursed.

The biblical truth is that Adam and the woman had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER the man ate. Gen 3:7, 3:22.


It was their nakedness that was evidenced following their partaking of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:7  Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Gen 3:11  And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Thu May 11, 2017 11:22 am

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:19


Hi Abiding,

This is a great quote for this discussion.

I'd love to hear from everybody their thoughts on how it was that many were made sinners by one man's disobedience.

My answer is that while Adam was created without corruption, sin corrupted God's original creation, and the corruption that had been introduced by Adam's sin was passed along to all descendant generations.

From Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament:

Here again we have "the one" (tou eno) with both Adam and Christ, but "disobedience" (parakoh, for which see 2 Corinthians 10:6 ) contrasted with "obedience" (upakoh), the same verb kaqisthmi, old verb, to set down, to render, to constitute (katestaqhsan, first aorist passive indicative, katastaqhsontai, future passive), and "the many" (oi polloi) in both cases (but with different meaning as with "all men" above).

Link


Passive voice verb means it is done to them (many were made sinners).

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby keithareilly on Thu May 11, 2017 12:34 pm

Mark s wrote
My answer is that while Adam was created without corruption, sin corrupted God's original creation, and the corruption that had been introduced by Adam's sin was passed along to all descendant generations.


Romans 5:12-14
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 8:19-21
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


As you said, sin was introduced through Adam into the world, corrupting creation itself. It is not so much that the corruption is passed down from generation to generation as that each generation is born from a corrupted creation into a corrupted creation. Creation itself is awaiting freedom from its enslavement to corruption.

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Thu May 11, 2017 2:03 pm

keithareilly wrote:Ephesians 1:3-6
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Adam was predestined to do as he did before he was created, before the world was even created.
He was created in such a manner that he would behave as he did.
God made Adam knowing Adam would do exactly as he did and God planned for Adam to do what he did and for sin to enter the world and for Christ to die and for us to believe in Christ. All of this was planned from before the world was created, even before its foundation.


Keith


That is what I also see in the Genesis account and in the whole counsel of scripture Keith.

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Thu May 11, 2017 2:12 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Sonbeam said:
The biblical truth is that Adam and the woman had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER the man ate. Gen 3:7, 3:22.

However, most believers choose to totally ignore this. They have been thoroughly indoctrinated into believing the notion that Adam deliberately and with evil, willful intent chose to disobey God so he could exercise his own authority over His. The Genesis account does not support this, but this falsehood is set in stone in the minds of many.


If you read Gen. 3, you will see God saying...

(to the serpent) "Because you have ...."

(to Adam) "Because you have ...."

No such "Because you have..." words were spoken to Eve obviously because her sin was unintentional as opposed to that of the serpent and Adam's willful, deliberate disobedience.

So the Genesis account does support a willful intent.

It's not a matter of "indoctrination" or believing a "notion," because scripture gives evidence of Adam's deliberate disobedience where his disobedience is contrasted with Christ's obedience:

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:19  


I am not disagreeing with the fact that Adam disobeyed Abiding. That is not the point.

The point I am trying to make is how that disobedience came about.

What I'd like to know is how you and others would answer the questions I posed in my previous post.
What are your thoughts on that. How do you see God?

As someone who lost control of His created creatures in the garden? Are we saying that man spoiled or truncated God's plan and He had to go into plan B? He then had to send His Son to redeem man?

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Thu May 11, 2017 2:26 pm

mark s wrote:
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:19


Hi Abiding,

This is a great quote for this discussion.

I'd love to hear from everybody their thoughts on how it was that many were made sinners by one man's disobedience.

My answer is that while Adam was created without corruption, sin corrupted God's original creation, and the corruption that had been introduced by Adam's sin was passed along to all descendant generations.


Mark,

Adam, though sinless upon his creation and until God gave him the one law that had an expressed punishment, was created with a sinful nature. How do we know? He sinned. And in my first post in this thread I give an explanation on this.

Adam's disobedience only proved that God created him fallible with the potential to sin. A potential that he fulfilled.
His sin itself did not make all men sinners. His sinful nature passed down to his offspring did in the course of time.
This is why God's condemnation of all men did not have to wait until each man was tested individually by God. No need to. The progenitor, the pattern for the human race was found to be fallible.

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri May 12, 2017 10:35 am

Sonbeam wrote:Mark,

Adam, though sinless upon his creation and until God gave him the one law that had an expressed punishment, was created with a sinful nature. How do we know? He sinned. And in my first post in this thread I give an explanation on this.

Adam's disobedience only proved that God created him fallible with the potential to sin. A potential that he fulfilled.
His sin itself did not make all men sinners. His sinful nature passed down to his offspring did in the course of time.
This is why God's condemnation of all men did not have to wait until each man was tested individually by God. No need to. The progenitor, the pattern for the human race was found to be fallible.

sonbeam


Hi sonbeam, You made a good case for your viewpoint, but it is not correct. In my view of how I understand what the bible tells us about this matter, Mark S. is correct in his assessment that Adam was an innocent. Humanity itself, or flesh and blood, does not mean that one will sin or else Jesus Christ would have committed sin.

Adam was spiritually alive and so was Eve. They didn’t even understand that they were naked. They were clothed with righteousness and had God’s glory on them or with them. Adam enjoyed fellowship with God. His choice to sin or transgress God’s commandment, was his own to make, as God had given him a free will to choose.

In Adam’s defense, he had no previous experience of anyone who lived before him. No one to compare himself to except for Eve who he now sees eating this fruit and enjoying it and hoping to become wise like God. Is it possible that Adam said to himself, ‘I can’t let Eve eat this fruit and become more wise than me.’ Was it a competitive thing? Or was it just the fact that Eve did not die immediately and the fruit was delicious?

In any event, whatever Adam’s thinking was, he could have refused to eat of the fruit that God said not to eat of. I said earlier that I think it was his love for Eve, and that he may have identified more with her than God, that led him to sin. In this way he loved the creature more than the creator.

Adam did not have a sin nature until he sinned. This is similar to what we see about Lucifer in Eze 28:14,15. NKJV
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways form the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

We do have some insight into his sin. Eze 28:16,17 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Not to derail this thread, I won’t speculate on these passages. Just to say that as Lucifer had no sinfulness in him until it was found in him, I don’t think Adam had any in him until that infamous day. From that point on, everyone born was born with what we call original sin, or a sin nature.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby keithareilly on Fri May 12, 2017 11:15 am

keithareilly wrote:Ephesians 1:3-6
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Adam was predestined to do as he did before he was created, before the world was even created.
He was created in such a manner that he would behave as he did.
God made Adam knowing Adam would do exactly as he did and God planned for Adam to do what he did and for sin to enter the world and for Christ to die and for us to believe in Christ. All of this was planned from before the world was created, even before its foundation.


Keith

keithareilly wrote:Romans 5:12-14
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 8:19-21
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


As you said, sin was introduced through Adam into the world, corrupting creation itself. It is not so much that the corruption is passed down from generation to generation as that each generation is born from a corrupted creation into a corrupted creation. Creation itself is awaiting freedom from its enslavement to corruption.

Keith


Adam was in the world before sin was in the world. Adam did not live in an environment where he was a slave to sin for there was no sin in the world under which one could be enslaved until after Adam sinned. He did not possess sin within his flesh as he had not yet been corrupted. Creation had not yet been corrupted. Even with the serpent being in the garden there was no sin in the world.

Nevertheless, Adam was predestined to sin as this was all planned from before the world was founded. The day Adam chose to disobey is the day he chose what he was predestined to choose from before the foundation of the world. Adam obeyed until Adam did not obey; this is the evidence Adam definitely had the freedom to make his own choices.

If Adam did not have the freedom to choose, Adam would have only and always either obeyed or disobeyed; he could never have done both. It is this very freedom to choose, that predestined Adam to disobey; for if he was free to choose, then statistically, that is though mathematically calculation, it is guaranteed (predestined) that at some point Adam was going to disobey.

Adam was free to disobey, therefore able disobey, therefore predestined to disobey. This is why we live under grace.

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri May 12, 2017 2:46 pm

Yes Keith, thank God for grace is right.

I wanted to mention for anyone reading this thread that the word of God teaches us that in Christ, having been born again and saved, we can be free from the bondage of sin.

Paul taught that sin shall not have dominion over you. The bible does not teach sinless perfection, but when Jesus died on the cross, he provided for us forgiveness of sins and the power over sin. That power is found in His blood, or we can say it is in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on the cross, and our faith in that and that only.

As christians we can, and often do, get messed up, putting our faith in the wrong object. When we do this we move away from grace and enter into law. The sin nature is then activated once again, as it was before we were saved, and we get entangled in sin, or we get oppressed by the devil.

But when our faith is correctly placed, there is freedom from the bondage of sin. I just wanted to give hope to those who may be struggling so we are not tempted to give up on the Christian life. If you don’t quit, God won’t quit. If you hunger and thirst after righteousness you will be filled. If you abide in My word, then are you My disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Fri May 12, 2017 4:16 pm

How is it possible that God could be the originator of sin?

Wouldn't that make Him Guilty?

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 12, 2017 4:32 pm

mark s wrote:How is it possible that God could be the originator of sin?

Wouldn't that make Him Guilty?

Love in Christ,
Mark


A quick and short answer to that Mark is that there is no one above God that can judge him or condemn Him. We His creatures certainly cannot. And I think that Paul addressed that in one or two of his epistles.

But this is not an easy topic. With all the suffering, evil, and chaos in this world, I certainly wish God had had another plan, a "nicer, more pleasant" one :-), to bring his "ancient" people to Himself. But He is God and we are not. And whatever God does is righteous.

:blessyou:

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Mark F on Fri May 12, 2017 5:01 pm

mark s wrote:I have 2 questions, I'll let you know what I think, I'd like to know what you think. I'd like to ask for specific yes/no, with whatever Scriptures and reasoning have led to your view.

(1) Did Adam have the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

I believe that yes, he was able to equally choose to sin or not sin, to obey or not obey, and could have acted in either manner. I base this on a couple of lines of reasoning.

One is that he was "created in the image of God", and that God declared all that He had made Good. It simply makes no sense to me to call good that which can only do evil, and that being "in the image of God" would include only being able to do evil. God condemns through Isaiah those who call evil good. This means to me that Adam was at least able to choose good. That he chose evil demonstrated that option also.

God refers to the "first Adam" or "first man", and the "last Adam", or "last man", holding up Adam and Jesus as 2 parts in a set of 2. There's more to be said about that, but I'll hold on for now.

(2) Do we have, as part of who we are being born into humanity, the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

I believe that no, we are not able to equally choose to sin or not sin, to obey or not obey, and we are not, as a matter of our nature through human birth, able to act in obedience to God. It is only in coming to faith that we can begin to obey God. Before we can obey Him, we have to first believe He is. Reference pleasing God, same thing, you have to first believe.

The Bible refers to the unbelievers, the not-born-again as "dead in sins", "slaves to sin", like that. David mentions being conceived in sin, not that his mother was being sinful in how he was conceived, rather, acknowledging that humanity is being born into sin.

All have sinned. No one has escaped the scourge of sin. Is that because God created humans in such a way that they would be unable to avoid sin? No choice? They're going to sin! Sooner or later.

I believe the answer lies in that Adam had the choice of what to do, but he chose to go against God.

Having failed to honor the Author of Life Adam forfeited his life, not physically dying that day, as God had said would happen, but dying just the same, as his spiritual side died.

So I think that Adam was the true innocent, and, having sinned, he became corrupted in nature, and we are all born, just as God had said, like giving birth to like, so we too are born corrupted in nature, destined to sin because we are sinners, rescued by Jesus, the other true innocent.

What do you think?

Love in Christ,
Mark


To your first question: (1) Did Adam have the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

I would say Adam, Eve, and Jesus are the only humans to have lived in a sinless state. It would be interesting to know how long they lived in the garden sinless before their fall to sin, if and what would have been a stumbling block to them apart from the only stipulation we are given in that God told them to not eat of that tree. Would they have been tempted to do something else? For me it seems I can sin in the first 60 seconds after waking in the morning so my opportunity for sin is plenty, all they could not do was eat some fruit from one particular tree. Did the fact that God gave them a "thou shalt not" make for the possibility of a sin?
If God never told Adam there was something he could not do would they have still found a way to commit a sin?

Oh well, we shall never know. To your question. They had no choice to make until they were given the command to not eat the fruit. God provided the situation that would test whether they would be obedient or rebellious. I believe that they would have been content to be obedient if it were not for the serpent.

I believe that the Scriptures are replete with patterns by God's design. Adam is described in that manner and you cited it in the text after the question, the first Adam, and last Adam.

Paul tells us that Adam was not deceived but Eve was deceived. That doesn't mean there is no consequence, the Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Eve was at the moment she ate, a sinner, condemned to die.

So if Adam was not deceived the only alterative is that he chose to become a sinner.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.


Paul could not be clearer in this case in that unlike the woman who was tricked, Adam was not tricked. Adam chose to face the consequence that God personally told him, that the result of eating the fruit he would die. Did he understand that? I can't say, could he tell that Eve was no longer sinless like he was? I suspect he did, and for that reason he chose to sin, like her.

Romans 5 adds a lot more commentary to this discussion,
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


To ask then, what then is the significance of Adam's sin and what is different about everyone else's sins since then? What was the likeness of the transgression of Adam? Paul told us in 1 Tim 2:14 - Adam was not deceived but chose to become
a sinner. Paul goes even further with this revelation in Romans 5:14 above, that Adam was a type of Him who was to come, namely Jesus Christ. How could Adam's transgression be a type of Christ? All Paul's examples are antitypes in Romans 5:15-21. Contrasts of failure (Adam) and righteousness (Christ)

Paul writes in 2 Cor this passage:
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin (to be*) sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

2Co 5:21  ForG1063 he hath madeG4160 him (to be*) sinG266 forG5228 us,G2257 who knewG1097 noG3361 sin;G266 thatG2443 weG2249 might be madeG1096 the righteousnessG1343 of GodG2316 inG1722 him.G846 (KJV)


"To be" above as I am sure you know, is said to not be in the Greek. One commentator I read stated that the word "sin" is substantive, not the verb. As I have only spoken English for 52 0r 53 years, I had to look up the definition for substantive. In this case the commentator is saying the word sin is functioning syntactically as a noun.

So I look at 2 Cor 5:21 again, God made Him, or God considered Him, or God treated Him as sin. God did not make Jesus "sin."

Jesus chose this to be so. The Scriptures above show that Adam chose to become a sinner, how much he understood is debatable, but we know he chose this predicament. Jesus chose to be treated like Adam deserved (and all of us). The type is seen in this.

I believe the Scripture is very clear that Adam not only chose to become a sinner, but did it with an understanding that for him to have his bride, he had to choose to join her in her fallen state. This isn't in my view something worthy of praise but only that he knew what he was doing. I suspect after Eve sinned he knew there was a divide between them. I shall not speculate further as some people get real itchy about that. But it isn't unfounded by the text.

There is also a text in Romans 8 that I believe to support this.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;


I struggle with the commentators, and here the translators who capitalized the word "Him." Paul is writing about our future glory, among other things, but in verses 23-25 he talks about this hope, we are the ones who hope, I find it difficult to read verse 20 in that God would not subject the creation to futility in hopes of a good outcome. Hope isn't hope if it's seen Paul wrote in verse 24, why does one hope for what he sees? We hope for what we cannot see.

Adam I believe subjected creation to futility in hope of redemption. I cannot reconcile that God can "hope" because He knows the end from the beginning, Jesus, the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. To me that verse is counter to Scripture if the "him" is God.

So yes I say Adam did choose, we on the other hand are from Adam after his fall. We are dead in sins. We can choose only after we are born again and the Holy Spirit makes us alive in Christ.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Mon May 15, 2017 8:26 am

Sonbeam wrote:
mark s wrote:How is it possible that God could be the originator of sin?

Wouldn't that make Him Guilty?

Love in Christ,
Mark


A quick and short answer to that Mark is that there is no one above God that can judge him or condemn Him. We His creatures certainly cannot. And I think that Paul addressed that in one or two of his epistles.

But this is not an easy topic. With all the suffering, evil, and chaos in this world, I certainly wish God had had another plan, a "nicer, more pleasant" one :-), to bring his "ancient" people to Himself. But He is God and we are not. And whatever God does is righteous.

:blessyou:

sonbeam



Hi sonbeam,

So then since I'm told to be like God, and that God is making me to be like Himself, I should be careful to place "sin traps" in my children's environment, so that they can more quickly come to realize their wretchedness, and therefore their need for the Savior.

Is that the good way?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Mon May 15, 2017 2:06 pm

Mark F,

You asked what I think is a very interesting question:

If God never told Adam there was something he could not do would they have still found a way to commit a sin?



No. And the reason for this is that for God to charge a man with sin, He has to declare/decree a punishment if a law He gives man is broken.

In Adam’s case God did give him one law and did state/decree a specific punishment: death (spiritual, complete separation from God)

God also did the same in the Law Covenant He made with the Israelites. God declared a punishment for them if they broke the covenant: the curses. Though the punishment in this case was for earthly temporal consequences, not spiritual death.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Mon May 15, 2017 2:11 pm

mark s wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
mark s wrote:How is it possible that God could be the originator of sin?

Wouldn't that make Him Guilty?

Love in Christ,
Mark


A quick and short answer to that Mark is that there is no one above God that can judge him or condemn Him. We His creatures certainly cannot. And I think that Paul addressed that in one or two of his epistles.

But this is not an easy topic. With all the suffering, evil, and chaos in this world, I certainly wish God had had another plan, a "nicer, more pleasant" one :-), to bring his "ancient" people to Himself. But He is God and we are not. And whatever God does is righteous.

:blessyou:

sonbeam



Hi sonbeam,

So then since I'm told to be like God, and that God is making me to be like Himself, I should be careful to place "sin traps" in my children's environment, so that they can more quickly come to realize their wretchedness, and therefore their need for the Savior.

Is that the good way?

Love in Christ,
Mark


Mark,

It is very hard for any of us to accept the sovereignty of God--that God is completely and totally in control of His creation. This is nothing new.

But think of the alternative. If God is not in control, how can we trust that He is going to be able to carry out His salvation plan to its completion?

After all, if in fact man from the very beginning thwarted God’s plan and purpose, then we can expect that men armed with their “free will” will continue to interfere with God’s plan.

As for your comment that God is making us to be like Himself, according to Rom 8:29 we are being conformed to the image of His Son not that of the Father.

‘For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”


And Christ had the mind of a Servant. He didn’t do anything other than His Father’s will.

Mark what children or anyone else need is to hear and believe the Good News. We do not come to realize our sinfulness until we have received the Holy Spirit and He reveals that to us.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Mon May 15, 2017 3:01 pm

Hi sonbeam,

I have no issues whatsoever with God's sovereignty. Of course He is sovereign. What He wills He does. What He decrees will be.

I believe it was God's sovereign will, God's intent for the man He made, that this man would be given the choice of rather to obey or disobey. And since God is sovereign, and this was His will, no one could change it. The man was given the choice. It was a real choice with real consequences, both for good or for ill.

How could you ever convince me that God wanted sin? It's against His very nature. God is what defines sin, you could even say, as being anything which His is not.

Who can say how it would have been had Adam made a better choice, and, when the time was ripe, the fruit ripened, Adam would eat from the tree of life and live forever. What would have happened to Adam so that he would live forever? Jesus said that eternal life is knowing God and knowing Jesus.

We know Jesus as He lives in us, and our new life is derived from His Life.

But now man had sinned. He must not eat of the tree. It's such a good thing that God made us for Love!

In Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Mon May 15, 2017 3:06 pm

I just don't have a lot of time at the moment, though there are still several posts I'm looking forward to responding to, I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread!

I want to just toss in there that I thing God's original intent was to have a family, and that God will have His family. He created Adam to begin that family, and then gave to Adam a little part of something that God had, just as Adam had been made as a little part of who God is.

That little something was his own sovereignty. There was more than that. Jesus cares for the creation, Adam was given to care for the garden. God is creative, Adam is invited to make up the names for the animals. Adam gets to contribute. And Adam gets to choose. One little choice. But it was his choice to make.

And though Adam's choice was not consistent with God's intent, nonetheless, God wants a family. And He will have His family! He already does!

:spin:

Love in Christ,
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon May 15, 2017 9:25 pm

mark s wrote:I just don't have a lot of time at the moment, though there are still several posts I'm looking forward to responding to, I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread!

I want to just toss in there that I thing God's original intent was to have a family, and that God will have His family. He created Adam to begin that family, and then gave to Adam a little part of something that God had, just as Adam had been made as a little part of who God is.

That little something was his own sovereignty. There was more than that. Jesus cares for the creation, Adam was given to care for the garden. God is creative, Adam is invited to make up the names for the animals. Adam gets to contribute. And Adam gets to choose. One little choice. But it was his choice to make.

And though Adam's choice was not consistent with God's intent, nonetheless, God wants a family. And He will have His family! He already does!

:spin:


Love in Christ,


Love it!
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 am

Hi sacredcowbasher,

you said:

Hi sonbeam, You made a good case for your viewpoint, but it is not correct. In my view of how I understand what the bible tells us about this matter, Mark S. is correct in his assessment that Adam was an innocent


I think if you go back and read one of my answers to Mark S, you will see that I agreed with him that Adam and
Eve were "true" innocents. And I respect your interpretation of the Genesis passages to be in disagreement with
mine.

Blessings,
sonbeam
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 17, 2017 11:37 am

mark s wrote:Hi sonbeam,

I have no issues whatsoever with God's sovereignty. Of course He is sovereign. What He wills He does. What He decrees will be.

I believe it was God's sovereign will, God's intent for the man He made, that this man would be given the choice of rather to obey or disobey. And since God is sovereign, and this was His will, no one could change it. The man was given the choice. It was a real choice with real consequences, both for good or for ill.

How could you ever convince me that God wanted sin? It's against His very nature. God is what defines sin, you could even say, as being anything which His is not.

Who can say how it would have been had Adam made a better choice, and, when the time was ripe, the fruit ripened, Adam would eat from the tree of life and live forever. What would have happened to Adam so that he would live forever? Jesus said that eternal life is knowing God and knowing Jesus.

We know Jesus as He lives in us, and our new life is derived from His Life.

But now man had sinned. He must not eat of the tree. It's such a good thing that God made us for Love!

In Christ,
Mark


Hi Mark,

Yes, what God wills He does, and what He decrees will be.

First God willed that the man should have a body of flesh.

God also willed that the man should not have the knowledge of good and evil when He created him.

God also willed to give the man the law, a command not to eat of the tree.

And yes, He willed that man should have a choice to eat or not to eat, to obey or not to obey.

And can we agree that God also willed that the serpent should tempt the woman?
If we don’t, we have another actor God lost control of in the garden.

If we objectively look at the Genesis text, we can see that the way God created the man (innocent and in the flesh), the prohibition (law) He gave him, and the environment He placed him in was highly conducive to the man’s disobedience.

For in regards to the flesh, the scriptures say the flesh and the Spirit “are opposed to each other.” Gal 5:17

And In regards to the law, that “the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh.” Rom 8

Am I trying with my observations to convince anyone that God is the “author of sin?”

No. For I believe that everything that God has created and does is “very good” and righteous for the purpose He wishes to accomplish.


Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!



But the narrative that persists about the events in the garden is that Adam thwarted God’s plan and that demeans the sovereignty of God.

Blessings,
sonbeam
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed May 17, 2017 11:38 am

Ok sonbeam, my apologies. I admit that I didn’t read anyone’s post but the OP so that I wouldn’t get distracted from my thoughts on the subject. I did read all of the posts after I posted. I shouldn’t have assumed your position. I will have to commit to going back and reading over all the posts after I add mine. Thanks for letting me know and God bless.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Wed May 17, 2017 11:51 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Ok sonbeam, my apologies. I admit that I didn’t read anyone’s post but the OP so that I wouldn’t get distracted from my thoughts on the subject. I did read all of the posts after I posted. I shouldn’t have assumed your position. I will have to commit to going back and reading over all the posts after I add mine. Thanks for letting me know and God bless.


No problem scb. God bless you too!
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Wed May 17, 2017 12:54 pm

Hi sonbeam,

So then, God planned for sin, needed sin to be able to enact His perfect plan, and set man up with no other choice but to sin. How then is God not responsible for the sin?

He planned it, staged it, and set it in motion. But He's not responsible? What if I get my teenager drunk, hand him my car keys, and tell him to go get me a hamburger and fries. I give him some money. He can barely stand. He looks like he's going to be sick. He's been behind the wheel exactly twice. But he musters up a smile, OK, and off he goes. I'm his dad. But It's not my fault when he wraps the car around a lamp post.

This also sounds like a sovereignty/holiness issue.

Is not God able to do things in a manner not involving sin? If not, does that not make God a slave to sin just as we are? If He has no choice but to instigate sin? And if He has that choice, then why choose sin? Wouldn't God be condemning Himself as He held Adam accountable?

Or is God simply a Law unto Himself, sinful, righteous, all the same to Him, just so that it gets the job done!

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound overly harsh, just blunt, for the purpose of the point. I hope this is received in the spirit in which I intend.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 17, 2017 1:20 pm

Sonbeam wrote:But the narrative that persists about the events in the garden is that Adam thwarted God’s plan and that demeans the sovereignty of God.


Sonbeam, I've not heard that narrative about Adam thwarting God's plan. Would you provide a link or source for such a narrative?

It seems that God's plan is referenced in Gen. 1:

Gen 1:28  God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 

Mankind is still being fruitful, subduing the earth and ruling over every living thing that moves on the earth. While it was initially directed to the first man and woman, it has continued to the present day.

Adam did make the fulfillment of that plan much harder and more sorrowful for himself than God originally intended, but that was the consequence of his choice.

As to evil being present in the garden, it is my belief and a reasonable evidence, is that Adam failed to "guard" the garden.

Gen 2:15  Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep (H8104 guard, protect) it. 

That word "keep" is the same Hebrew word for the Cerubim 's "guarding" (H8104) the way to the Tree of Life" after Adam was expelled from the garden.

H8104
Shâmar
shaw-mar'

A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.

God's plan was never thwarted, but mankind consistently made it harder than need be by failure, bad choices, idolatry, self-centeredness, etc. God continues to clean up the mess by teaching, nurturing, protecting, and allowing us to suffer the consequences of our bad choices.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Thu May 18, 2017 5:56 am

mark s wrote:Hi sonbeam,

So then, God planned for sin, needed sin to be able to enact His perfect plan, and set man up with no other choice but to sin. How then is God not responsible for the sin?

He planned it, staged it, and set it in motion. But He's not responsible? What if I get my teenager drunk, hand him my car keys, and tell him to go get me a hamburger and fries. I give him some money. He can barely stand. He looks like he's going to be sick. He's been behind the wheel exactly twice. But he musters up a smile, OK, and off he goes. I'm his dad. But It's not my fault when he wraps the car around a lamp post.

This also sounds like a sovereignty/holiness issue.

Is not God able to do things in a manner not involving sin? If not, does that not make God a slave to sin just as we are? If He has no choice but to instigate sin? And if He has that choice, then why choose sin? Wouldn't God be condemning Himself as He held Adam accountable?

Or is God simply a Law unto Himself, sinful, righteous, all the same to Him, just so that it gets the job done!

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound overly harsh, just blunt, for the purpose of the point. I hope this is received in the spirit in which I intend.

Love in Christ,
Mark


No problem Mark. Don't have much time right now to give you a longer answer to your questions, but I'll just say this.

On the sovereignty of God, we can't have it both ways. It boils down to this: Either He is Sovereign and totally in control of His creation or He is not. That is what this discussion is about.


Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby mark s on Thu May 18, 2017 8:05 am

Hi sonbeam,

I totally understand about not much time and needing to stick to short posts!

:lol:

But then, that can simplify the discussion also.

:grin:

I understand that you are saying that for God to actually be The True Sovereign, this means that every decision made must be His alone.

My difficulty with this it that would make God the Author of Sin, and that seems so strongly against everything I read in the Bible.

My solution to this, which is what I feel I'm reading in the Genesis narrative, is that God chose to give Adam the choice.

I can be in control of my children, but when I allow my child to have a goldfish, and give them the responsibility to feed it and care for it, then I can't very well sneak in during the day and fill in, at least, not without obviating their responsibility. I've taken it back through my actions. When it lives, it's because my child cared for it. If it dies, it's because my child did not. I will have allowed it to die, but only in the context of preserving my child's responsibility. For their choices.

Love in Christ,
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Mark F on Thu May 18, 2017 3:04 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Mark F,

You asked what I think is a very interesting question:

If God never told Adam there was something he could not do would they have still found a way to commit a sin?



No. And the reason for this is that for God to charge a man with sin, He has to declare/decree a punishment if a law He gives man is broken.

In Adam’s case God did give him one law and did state/decree a specific punishment: death (spiritual, complete separation from God)

God also did the same in the Law Covenant He made with the Israelites. God declared a punishment for them if they broke the covenant: the curses. Though the punishment in this case was for earthly temporal consequences, not spiritual death.

Blessings,

sonbeam


It was somewhat rhetorical. If no law was given no sin could be imputed.
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 19, 2017 7:46 am

Mark F wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Mark F,

You asked what I think is a very interesting question:

If God never told Adam there was something he could not do would they have still found a way to commit a sin?



No. And the reason for this is that for God to charge a man with sin, He has to declare/decree a punishment if a law He gives man is broken.

In Adam’s case God did give him one law and did state/decree a specific punishment: death (spiritual, complete separation from God)

God also did the same in the Law Covenant He made with the Israelites. God declared a punishment for them if they broke the covenant: the curses. Though the punishment in this case was for earthly temporal consequences, not spiritual death.

Blessings,

sonbeam


It was somewhat rhetorical. If no law was given no sin could be imputed.


Thanks Mark F. That is what we are discussing in "where there is not law there is no transgression" thread. :grin:
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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 19, 2017 7:59 am

mark s wrote:Hi sonbeam,

I totally understand about not much time and needing to stick to short posts!

:lol:

But then, that can simplify the discussion also.

:grin:

I understand that you are saying that for God to actually be The True Sovereign, this means that every decision made must be His alone.


Yes, He is totally responsible for how all of His creation operates.

My difficulty with this it that would make God the Author of Sin, and that seems so strongly against everything I read in the Bible.

My solution to this, which is what I feel I'm reading in the Genesis narrative, is that God chose to give Adam the choice.


Yes that is perhaps the only way to see it. God decreed that Adam would introduce, be the author of, sin into the world. God decreed that Adam should be responsible for His choices.

But God cannot be charged or judged with sin or being sinful, or evil because as you mentioned in your previous post, God IS a law unto Himself.

There is no one or any law above God to which He must submit or be accountable to. And God is certainly not accountable to His creatures who are under Him.

But certainly questions arise in our minds regarding how God is carrying out His plan, especially when His plan touches us individually in ways we do not like. Been there many times. But here are a couple of answers found in the bible when we do question God's ways:

Isa 45:9
Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?
Rom 9:19


One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


So from one "potsherd" to another, :grin:

:blessyou:


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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 19, 2017 8:25 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:But the narrative that persists about the events in the garden is that Adam thwarted God’s plan and that demeans the sovereignty of God.


Sonbeam, I've not heard that narrative about Adam thwarting God's plan. Would you provide a link or source for such a narrative?


The narrative or notion as I've said before is a simple one. "IF only Adam had not sinned then (fill in the blank).......

God's plan was to (fill in the blank)......but Adam's disobedience (fill in the blank) .......

In other words, "Adam thwarted (messed up) God's plan."

Haven't you heard this before Abiding?

I've heard this in so many variations both from some pulpits and in bible studies that I'm surprised it hasn't been codified into a formal creed somewhere within Christian circles.


God's plan was never thwarted,


I agree Abiding.

:blessyou:

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Re: Adam's Sin; My Sin

Postby Mark F on Fri May 19, 2017 2:36 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Thanks Mark F. That is what we are discussing in "where there is not law there is no transgression" thread. :grin:


I didn't notice that thread, I'll have to read it, thanks.
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