"I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

"I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:13 pm

"I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children" (Exodus 34:6-7)

In the Old Testament (Covenant), God punished the sin of a man in the son of that man. link


Deu_16:19  "You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial...

Deu_16:20  "Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue....

For the LORD is a God of justice....Isaiah 30:18

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey...Zec 9:9


Are we misunderstanding Exodus 34-6-7? How can God punish the children for the sins of the father and still be a just God? If that verse is true as we often hear it, should the innocent pay the price for the guilty? I've heard the term "generational curse" and use that verse as evidence of such a thing.
:humm:

Let's discuss.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby mark s on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:00 pm

Hi Abiding,

I'm thinking of another passage that may relate, when Achan stole things from Jericho, and his entire family was killed, and them and everything they owned burned.

When the lots were cast to show the guilty party, only Achan was chosen.

?

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Jericho on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:18 pm

Just a quick thought. What I get from Exodus 34:7 is that God forgives iniquity, rebellion, and sin, BUT the sins of the guilty affect the children and grandchildren and so on. I think it's import to note that God is specially talking about the guilty, so they apparently have not repented. If they had done so, they would have been forgiven and God could have reversed the consequences of their sin from affecting their offspring.

I don't think God is specifically targeting their children per say, but there is a natural law of reaping and sowing at work that what our forefathers do will affect their descendants for generations to come. Either in a positive or negative way. Take David Rockefeller Sr. for instance. He made a fortune, and over a hundred years later his descendants are still reaping the benefits of his actions. Or for a biblical example, Achan took something he shouldn't have,and as a result not only did he die, but his children died as well. So the consequences of his sins, not only affected him but his children also.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby mark s on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:50 pm

I think this also touches on the doctrine of "Federalism" or "Federal Head of Humanity", which would reference "in Adam, all died", and, "in Christ, all are made alive."

Of course we were not born when Adam sinned, and we had nothing to do with it. But all die in him. We share in his death, by going on to suffer our own. Federalism, if I remember correctly, takes it another step, and declares that we are guilty for Adam's sin, and in Adam humanity sinned. So that even if we never sinned, we still stand guilty for the original sin.

I believe the Bible's teaching is that we reap the consequences of Adam's sin, such as cursed ground and corrupted nature, and while it is not these things that condemn us as such, instead, they make certain we will be unavoidably condemned when we invariably become disobedient.

I think this is an example of Adam's sin being "visited" upon his children. Maybe the key is understanding what He means when He says "visit".

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:09 pm

How it is justice for God to punish the children (to the third or fourth generation) for the guilt of the father? Or isn't that what the Exodus verse means?

That verse implies that it is God "visiting" the iniquity but there are conflicting scriptures...i.e.

Deut. 24:16  "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jer 31:30  "But everyone will die for his own iniquity... 
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:28 pm

mark s wrote:I think this is an example of Adam's sin being "visited" upon his children.


So am I responsible for Adam's disobedience? God is visiting iniquity on me because of Adam?

Maybe the key is understanding what He means when He says "visit".


I think that's the crux of the matter, Mark. If God is just, it isn't reasonable for Him to punish the innocent because of the guilt of another.

The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 
Exo 34:7  who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations." 


I think those who teach or believe such a thing as a "generational curse" are mistaken.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:04 am

Abiding

It is just like the parable of the Talents, today a talent is an ability to do something whereas in Jesus' day it was a very large sum of money.

The meaning has been changed by usage and when people speak of the parable of the Talents, they frame their telling of the parable in terms of ability and not in the terms of making money out of the money given to them as the servant(s) of the man who has gone away for a time.

The same is so with the understanding of the prophecy the sins of the fathers, bring visited on their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth. The usage of this phrase has been changed such that its meaning is of a descendant generation rather than to a prolong period of time, namely an age or a day of the Lord. The three times this prophetic word is given concerning Israel it is associated with Israel worshiping idols.

Consider the following passage: -
Ezekiel 37:21-28: - "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

"David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince in the distant future. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst in the distant future. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst in the distant future.

Consider this passage and understand that it was a distant future prophecy with respect to the time that Ezekiel gave the prophecy to the People of Israel and will begin to be fulfilled in our near future

Israel was give a chance to repent of their idolatry during the 490 years of the Daniel 9:24 prophecy but they chose not to repent, so the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy kicked in and the iniquities of the fathers was visited upon their children and their children's children, during the third and the fourth age of the existence of the nation of Israel.

The traditional understand of "descendant generations" is not the intent of the original prophecy and it has been modified to suit the "traditionally expressed understanding" because of the very long timeframe that was being spoken about.

In Joel 1, we are introduced to the last generation/age of Israel: -
Joel 1:2-3: - Hear this, you elders,
And give ear, all you inhabitants of the land!
Has anything like this happened in your days,
Or even in the days of your fathers?
Tell your children about it,
Let your children tell their children,
And their children another generation.


The phrase has nothing to do with descendant generation and we should not attempt to understand this phrase in this manner.

Shalom

Edited to change "noting" to "nothing" to correct the last sentence of this post.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:33 am

Jay Ross wrote:The phrase has noting to do with descendant generation and we should not attempt to understand this phrase in this manner.


Wow, Jay! That is a real eye-opener for me! It (almost) makes perfect sense in answer to my initial question about the justice of God. I have to digest what you've presented as seeing these phrases as a time-frame rather than a personal-sons-type prophecy without justification imo.

Let me think on this a bit....and thanks for that comment!
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby GodsStudent on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:41 am

Leviticus 26: 39-42

Here's a good sermon by Dr. Tony Evans on the subject, if interested:

http://subsplash.com/tonyevans/v/3c4f197
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:14 pm

Abiding,

"I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children" (Exodus 34:6-7)

This verse does not say God punished the children for the sins of their fathers.
It says the iniquity of their fathers are passed down to their children.


Keith
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:24 pm

Also, having said what I said,

Why did the child of Bathsheba and David's sin die? Because God ordained it as punishment for the child's father's sin.

What did the child do wrong? Nothing.

The child was not punished; but, instead suffered the consequences of his father's sin.

Keith
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:44 pm

Lisa

It is a good explanation of the passing of the iniquities down through the ages, from one descendant generation to the next.

Thanks for posting this link.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:05 pm

Jay,

Consider the verses from Joel you quoted, scripture says specifically to teach in order to pass from parent to child generational passings.

People don't pass ideas through an age, or from one age to another, without also teaching (passing) it from one generation to another.

It would be better to view the verses as from parent to child for a period of generations.
These generations constitute part of an age, an age, or over the ages, depending on the number of generations.

If something gets lost during a generation, it cannot be taught (passed) to future generations until it is first rediscovered. Teaching (passing) by definition is one generation at a time.

Visiting the iniquities of the father on the children is not judging the the children for their fathers sin.
It is passing the sin from one generation to another, though part of an age, an age or over the ages.

To be passed through the ages requires passing from generation to generation.
Because parents are the primary teaches of the children of the next generation, each parent passes what they teach through word and deed.

Interestingly, public education is a primary vehicle to change what is passed from generation to generation.


Keith
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:16 pm

keithareilly wrote:This verse does not say God punished the children for the sins of their fathers.
It says the iniquity of their fathers are passed down to their children.


"I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children" (Exodus 34:6-7)
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:19 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
keithareilly wrote:This verse does not say God punished the children for the sins of their fathers.
It says the iniquity of their fathers are passed down to their children.


"I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children" (Exodus 34:6-7)


Yes, God does not judge children for their father's sin; He visits the father's iniquity itself upon the children.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:30 pm

How about these verses?

Eze 18:19 Yet you say, Why? Does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son has done justice and righteousness, he has kept all My statutes and has done them, living he shall live.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. A son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. And a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
Just observing.

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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby GodsStudent on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:20 am

Jay Ross wrote:Lisa

It is a good explanation of the passing of the iniquities down through the ages, from one descendant generation to the next.

Thanks for posting this link.


Thank you, Jay. I feel like the red headed step child here....no one even seemed to see the scriptures I posted about.
Its a completely different way of understanding this subject, and important imo, as I have found in talking and witnessing to others that often times, these generational curses run in families, as in personality traits or tendencies.....
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon May 01, 2017 5:09 pm

GodsStudent wrote: I have found in talking and witnessing to others that often times, these generational curses run in families, as in personality traits or tendencies.....


GodsStudent, I've mentioned this before somewhere on the board, but for the sake of this thread, I'll mention it again.

One of the first "talk shows" years ago was that of Phil Donahue. Some of us were flabbergasted that people would come on a show and publicly discuss their personal lives and problems. One show in particular was focusing on the addiction to alcohol. The two guests were adult brothers whose father was an alcoholic. One adult son was an alcoholic; the other not. Phil Donahue asked the one why he turned to alcohol and his response was "....because I saw my father do so." He asked the other brother why he did not turn to alcohol and his response was "....because I saw my father do so." :wink:

Both good and bad behaviors are observed within families, but do not need to be imitated. If it were true that our "destiny" was somehow the results of some type of osmosis (the process of gradual or unconscious assimilation of ideas, knowledge, etc.) without the recognition of free will/choice, we should not be accountable for our sins. Like Adam, we could blame God or someone else.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby GodsStudent on Tue May 02, 2017 5:27 am

Hi Abiding:
I know in my family there is a propensity towards control, anger and hostility...an illegitimate mechanism to get what one feels they want or need.....It's pervasive in the generations and also in the family members, even though these family members live in various states around the USA.....We often laugh amongst ourselves that messing with one of us is akin to picking up a rattle snake, and you better know how to handle it if you are going to pick it up......otherwise leave it alone.
As I've grown older and wiser in Christ, I have come to see this behavior as destructive and while it accomplishes things, it's not the best way to go about doing so...and so for myself, I have repented of it and repented of the same behavior on behalf of the generations before me. The sermon I posted above speaks to scriptures which call us to do that in order to break these "generational curses," and receive the promises to Abraham for yourself and your own family. I could see the points Dr. Evans made in his scriptures and can very easily see the sins in my family/the generations of my family.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 02, 2017 7:31 am

    mechanisms
    patterns
    inclinations
    behaviors
    examples
    traits
    attitudes

GodsStudent, these words are synonyms for those things within families, friends, teachers, and other systems which are observed and willingly imitated by some who choose to do so. The motivation behind each behavior, either negative or positive, is varied, but most are imitated or assumed into one's own "cache of weapons" because they are beneficial in attaining a desired end. In other words, imitating or utilizing some of the negative or positive patterns/behaviors/mechanisms observed results in a reward that benefits the user.

Thus, lying, manipulating, cheating, abusing, addictions, bullying, etc. are perpetrated because they achieve the purpose for which they are used. You correctly stated it this way: "an illegitimate mechanism to get what one feels they want or need."

The belief that this type of learned behavior is designed or ordained by God as opposed to a natural human ploy/choice is erroneous in my opinion. I believe it was Augustine who taught the concept of inherited sin and the transmittance through sexual intimacy. (don't quote me on that, but do your own research) ....smile

That's where the Catholic stance on "original sin" and infant baptism evolved to save the infant from it's sin so as to assure eternal life.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 02, 2017 7:35 am

Here's how behaviors/attitudes, etc. are imitated as observed.... I love this ever since I read it many years ago. Most of them listed are positive traits imitated, but if you insert negative traits, the end result is the same...children will learn what they observe.

Children Learn What They Live
by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby keithareilly on Tue May 02, 2017 12:49 pm

There is an expression regarding children, they are molded.
Behavior and attitudes mold the next generation.
From those molds are behaviors and attitudes replicated.

A mold replicates what was molded.
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby Jay Ross on Tue May 02, 2017 1:40 pm

keith,

When you cast an object, you require a void into which to pour the liquid metal to become a solid object. The void is created by a pattern in moulding sand and the pattern can be used over and over again to create voids which look alike and when filled with metal, the outcome has the same characteristics and purpose. Flaws in the void created by the pattern can occur for many reasons and distort the outcome of the object that is being made.

What fills the void is not under the control of the "parent" as other influences/choices by the void can determine what will fill the void. It really depends on the void, i.e. the child, as to what they allow to fill the patterned void in their life.

The choice outcome can produce righteousness or desolation and devastation.

It becomes much harder to remove and replace the metal object that was formed in the void, but it is possible to do so. The helper in this task is Christ but the "objections" in our lives, demonic spirits, need to be cleaned out first and the void quickly refilled so that the demonic spirits cannot return to fill the "created void" when they are ejected from our lives.

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the concepts need to be understood when making the choices in one life.

Shalom
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Re: "I visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children"

Postby keithareilly on Tue May 02, 2017 1:49 pm

The impressions we make upon our children are the molds from which that which was impressed is replicated.

Each child is different, the same actions do not necessarily leave the same impressions.
It depends upon that of which the child is made.

Thus can one child be impressed to continue drinking and the other impressed to not ever drink.
The impression replicates a positive or a negative of the original depending upon that of which the child is made.
The child who chooses not to drink chooses to overcome evil with good.
It depends upon that of which the child is made.

Good examples do not necessarily result in good impressions upon the child.
It depends upon that of which the child is made.
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