Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

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Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Exit40 on Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:13 am

Rewriting the Biblical 'Curse' on Womankind
A change to a popular translation of the Bible could affect readers’ views on marriage and gender roles.

In the biblical book of Genesis, God expels the first two human beings from the Garden of Eden after Eve entices Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. God “curses” Eve for her misdeed, using ominous words that seem to doom her to live subordinately to Adam. In the phrasing of the historic King James Version familiar to many Protestant readers, God says, “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

This phrase was recently altered in the English Standard Version translation of the Bible—which is produced by a committee of prominent theologians and typically used by evangelicals—so that the intent of the “curse” seems different. Whereas the first half of that sentence formerly read “Your desire shall be for your husband,” it now reads, “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband.” It appears to suggest that women naturally oppose their husbands’ desires, and thus are responsible for marital conflict. While many major Bible translations are regularly updated, this alteration isn’t as inconsequential as it may seem: Translations like this have the potential to invisibly shape evangelicals’ thinking about women’s role in marriage.

The text as other major translations have it—and as the ESV originally did—acknowledges female desire, a relatively progressive move given the ancient context. But the new translation erases the allusion to Eve’s natural want for physical and emotional intimacy and replaces it with anticipation of marital strife. This matters because for most evangelical readers, the Bible translation they use represents divinely inspired scripture. Because the “curse” supposedly applies to all women, the new translation may lead readers to believe the Bible says God cursed women with the desire to resist their husbands’ wishes....

Contineus

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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:32 am

:roll:

This would be sad if it wasn't so funny. We should not be surprised that those who had no qualms about reinventing the Trinity would try to further reinvent the relationship between husband and wife and use the (reinvented) Trinity to support their agenda.

I have often said that some have turned the NT into a legal book, I think Scott McKnight got it right when he said that the world in which we live has turned the Bible into politics. The version you carry, he suggests (tongue in cheek) reflects the tribe to which you belong.

He provides several examples of tribal bibles and their political agendas.

    The NIV 2011 is the Bible of conservative evangelicals.
    The NLT is the Bible of conservative evangelicals.
    The TNIV is the Bible of egalitarian evangelicals.
    The ESV is the Bible of complementarian conservative evangelicals.
    The NASB is the Bible of conservative evangelical serious Bible students.
    The NRSV is the Bible of Protestant mainliners.
    The RSV is the Bible of aged Protestant mainliners.
    The CEB is the Bible of Protestant mainliners.
    The KJV … fill in the blank yourself.
    The Message is the Bible of those who are tired of the politics (and like something fresh).

Good thing Crossway reversed it's decision to make the latest version "permanent" and remain unchanged in all future editions.

... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,  and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby keithareilly on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:32 am

Interesting...

They are putting forth the idea that the gender ruler/subordinate conflict is a consequence of original sin.
She shall be contrary to "He shall rule over you".

I think we understand this without having to wrongly translate the verse.

I wonder why they did not just go on to say ...
"Your desire shall be to rule over your husband but he shall rule over you."
Guess they did not want to go that far.

Each gender does have certain roles, biology evidences this.
But, even biologically dictated roles do not imply inequality.



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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby shorttribber on Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:33 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:The KJV … fill in the blank yourself.

Ok. The Bible of Christians who have not been Influenced by Errant Textual Criticism :read:

Sorry Abiding, just couldn't help it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:12 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:The KJV … fill in the blank yourself.

Ok. The Bible of Christians who have not been Influenced by Errant Textual Criticism :read:

Sorry Abiding, just couldn't help it. :mrgreen:


:lol:

I thought it odd that Scott McKnight did that, so it can be filled in with no opposition apparently.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:43 pm

Exit40 wrote: While many major Bible translations are regularly updated, this alteration isn’t as inconsequential as it may seem: Translations like this have the potential to invisibly shape evangelicals’ thinking


Thank you so much for providing this Article David!

As I read information put forth like this from the Body of Christ - I am reminded of what the very FIRST thing that Jesus told the disciples to WATCH for when they inquired to Him concerning the "Sign" of His Coming - and End of the Age:

The very FIRST thing He said was this:

Matthew 24:4-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

4) And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one DECEIVES you." 5) For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.


Deception is very real - with Theologians, and even in some Churches we attend.

Dear Body of Christ - please STUDY to show thyself approved; DEEPLY rooted and grounded in the Word of God.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Exit40 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:53 am

Counterpoint: Bible's description of God as male does not diminish voice of women

Recent weeks have brought several perspectives on women’s roles in the Catholic Church — a commentary (“The sisterhood, still marginalized,” Nov. 6), and a responding letter to the editor (“Avoid gendered God-talk,” Nov. 13). I would like to add a third woman’s opinion on this subject, focusing on two points the letter brought up.

First, let us deal with the “HeHimHis God-talk the Vatican forces … all Catholics to use in liturgies.” The letter writer wrote “that Father and Son are not facts.”

http://www.startribune.com/counterpoint ... 402340585/

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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Mark F on Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:55 pm

There is another verse in Genesis 4 that is very similar to the verse in question.

Genesis 3:16
and thy desire H8669 shall be to H413 thy husband,H376 and he H1931 shall rule H4910 over thee. 



Genesis 4:7
And unto H413 thee shall be his desire,H8669 and thou H859 shalt rule H4910 over him. 

Is this speaking metaphorically of sin or of God telling Cain that he need not worry, Able will respect his birth order and submit to Cain..... SO DON"T KILL HIM!!

I surely don't know but it seems to me that the same problem arises with both verses. I have heard of the interpretation that this ESV translation puts forth years ago.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Mark F on Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:51 am

I have a MacArthur Bible Commentary that I forgot I had and did not look at it when I posted last evening, here is from his comments on Genesis 3:16-

Your desire......he shall rule. Just as the woman and her seed will engage in a war with the serpent,i.e., Satan and his seed (V. 15), because of sin and the curse, man and the woman will face struggles in their own relationship. Sin has turned the harmonious system of God-ordained roles into distasteful struggles of self-will. Lifelong companions, husbands and wives, will need God's help in getting along as a result. The woman's desire will be to lord it over her husband, but the husband will rule by divine design (Eph. 5:22-25). This interpretation of this curse is based upon the identical Hebrew words and grammar being used in (Gen)4:7 to show the conflict man will have with sin as it seeks to rule over him.


I didn't think this was a new idea, as if anything ever is. Other commentaries follow both interpretations but as I though of Genesis 4:7, either of those (sin or Seth as the Noun) it carries the same basic idea. Isn't this self evident in reality?
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby keithareilly on Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:25 am

The real downside of this translation is that through the verse might imply this in part,
translating it this way makes the part, the whole.
So we lose what else the verse might mean or imply.

So, we have a translation that gives us a possible subset instead of the whole set.

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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Exit40 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:50 am

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen ... ibles_3016

KJV
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

NKJV
To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

NLT
Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.[fn]”

NIV
To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

ESV
To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be contrary to[fn] your husband,
but he shall rule over you.”

HCSB
He said to the woman:
I will intensify your labor pains;
you will bear children in anguish.
Your desire will be for your husband,
yet he will rule over you.

NASB
To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain [fn]in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

NET
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you."

RSV
To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

ASV
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

YLT
Unto the woman He said, 'Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband is thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.'

DBY
To the woman he said, I will greatly increase thy travail and thy pregnancy; with pain thou shalt bear children; and to thy husband shall be thy desire, and he shall rule over thee.

WEB
To the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

HNV
To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."


God Bless

David
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:48 am

KJV
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

NKJV
To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

WEB
To the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

ESV
Gen 3:16  To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” 

"Shall be" evidently added for clarity or for another purpose perhaps?....

Is God commanding Eve to desire or be contrary to her husband? And is desiring her husband or being contrary to him supposed to be a punishment?

Is God commanding her husband to rule over her? And is ruling over her supposed to be a punishment?
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Mark F on Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:25 pm

Mark F wrote:I have a MacArthur Bible Commentary that I forgot I had and did not look at it when I posted last evening, here is from his comments on Genesis 3:16-

Your desire......he shall rule. Just as the woman and her seed will engage in a war with the serpent,i.e., Satan and his seed (V. 15), because of sin and the curse, man and the woman will face struggles in their own relationship. Sin has turned the harmonious system of God-ordained roles into distasteful struggles of self-will. Lifelong companions, husbands and wives, will need God's help in getting along as a result. The woman's desire will be to lord it over her husband, but the husband will rule by divine design (Eph. 5:22-25). This interpretation of this curse is based upon the identical Hebrew words and grammar being used in (Gen)4:7 to show the conflict man will have with sin as it seeks to rule over him.


I didn't think this was a new idea, as if anything ever is. Other commentaries follow both interpretations but as I though of Genesis 4:7, either of those (sin or Seth as the Noun) it carries the same basic idea. Isn't this self evident in reality?


I haven't seen anyone comment on the part I highlighted from MacArthur's commentary that the verse in Genesis 4:7 has identical words and grammar that is speaking of sin seeking to rule Cain...? Or is it God telling Cain that Able desires Cain's well being and Cain will rule over him because of Cain's birthright?? I go with the former. Some translations have "it's" as the pronoun instead of "him."

Gen 4:7b "And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
NKJV

Even though the word "contrary" is not in the verse, I know that sin's desire for Cain is contrary because that is what sin does, As far as Genesis 3:16 is concerned, if the meaning is that Eve will desire Adam, why follow with "but he shall rule over you?"
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:17 pm

Mark F wrote:I haven't seen anyone comment on the part I highlighted from MacArthur's commentary that the verse in Genesis 4:7 has identical words and grammar that is speaking of sin seeking to rule Cain...?


I'll make this short comment about MacArthur's commentary. It says:

This interpretation of this curse is based upon the identical Hebrew words and grammar being used in (Gen)4:7 to show the conflict man will have with sin as it seeks to rule over him.


First of all, there is nothing in Genesis 3:16 that implies it is a curse. MacArthur incorrectly calls the passage a curse when the only two things God cursed in Genesis 3 are the serpent and the ground.

Second, since MacArthur is knowledgeable enough in scripture to see that the same word (desire) is used in both Gen. 3:16 and Gen. 4:7, he should be astute enough to find the meaning of the Hebrew word...teshuqah.

Strong's has it most correctly:
teshûqâh
tesh-oo-kaw'
From H7783 in the original sense of stretching out after

The words God is speaking throughout the Gen. 3 passage to both Adam and Eve are prophetical in nature. They are warnings or cautionary words, if you will, of what life will be like outside of the garden perfectly designed for their complete happiness. So, the prophetical words warn Eve that if she "stretches out after/toward" her husband, he will rule over her. She will experience sorrow in the toil of childbirth as Adam will experience sorrow in his toiling the soil which will bring forth thorns and thistles.

Gen 4:7  "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." 

God's words again are those of admonition, caution, and warning that "sin is crouching...it's stretching out toward you...." Be strong and don't allow it to have control over you.

Again, the words spoken to Adam and Eve are foretelling of the negative, adverse conditions of life outside of the garden.

And it doesn't take long for the insidious desire for power and rule over others for personal gain to manifest itself. Not only with regard to Cain, but we find the cruel, and polygamous Lamech boasting of his murders in a threatening voice.

Lamech said to his wives, "Adah and Zillah, Listen to my voice, You wives of Lamech, Give heed to my speech, For I have killed a man for wounding me; And a boy for striking me;  If Cain is avenged sevenfold, Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold."Gen 4:23-24  
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:29 am

Second, since MacArthur is knowledgeable enough in scripture to see that the same word (desire) is used in both Gen. 3:16 and Gen. 4:7, he should be astute enough to find the meaning of the Hebrew word...teshuqah.


I'm (obviously) not a fan of MacArthur's, but my snarky-ness in that part was uncalled for. My apologies. :(
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:16 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Second, since MacArthur is knowledgeable enough in scripture to see that the same word (desire) is used in both Gen. 3:16 and Gen. 4:7, he should be astute enough to find the meaning of the Hebrew word...teshuqah.


I'm (obviously) not a fan of MacArthur's, but my snarky-ness in that part was uncalled for. My apologies. :(


Ah, she IS human!!! hehe
Hands down, Abiding, you are a wise moderator and blessing to us all. When I grow up, I hope to be half as snarky as I am now.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:25 am

GodsStudent wrote:Ah, she IS human!!! hehe.


:humm:
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Mark F on Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:07 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Second, since MacArthur is knowledgeable enough in scripture to see that the same word (desire) is used in both Gen. 3:16 and Gen. 4:7, he should be astute enough to find the meaning of the Hebrew word...teshuqah.


I'm (obviously) not a fan of MacArthur's, but my snarky-ness in that part was uncalled for. My apologies. :(


I appreciate that, my feelings were only slightly hurt...LOL, just kidding. I like MacArthur for the most part, but he isn't the only one with that view. I have the E-Sword with all those old timers commentaries, some of them looked at it the same way.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:29 pm

Mark F wrote:I appreciate that, my feelings were only slightly hurt...LOL, just kidding. I like MacArthur for the most part, but he isn't the only one with that view. I have the E-Sword with all those old timers commentaries, some of them looked at it the same way.


Mark, I don't know what I would do without E-Sword! It is the most comprehensive resource for Bible study I've found. I have all the "old timers commentaries" as well, although I don't agree with some and I think if they had had E-Sword for study they may have viewed some scriptures differently. I especially like the "compare" and the "harmony" features.

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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Mark F on Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:51 pm

Thanks Abiding for the heads up, I donated some a few years back but I am still using it, probably 6 or 7 years now, maybe more so i guess I am due to chip i a few more!! It sure looks worthwhile.

I use a Windows phone but E-Sword has an app for i-Phone, I almost consider switching just for that.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Exit40 on Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:03 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
GodsStudent wrote:Ah, she IS human!!! hehe.


:humm:


I'd like to chime in here with my impression. Abiding, you are such a rock, great teacher and leader, for you to say you can get snarky is to show you have a human side to your character. Not a bad thing, rather, it is a confirmation of GS's character also. I think she wants to be like you. And yes, you are a blessing.

God Bless You

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How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:22 am

Exit40 wrote:I'd like to chime in here with my impression. Abiding, you are such a rock, great teacher and leader, for you to say you can get snarky is to show you have a human side to your character. Not a bad thing, rather, it is a confirmation of GS's character also. I think she wants to be like you. And yes, you are a blessing.


David, I am both humbled and grateful for your complement, but most of all for your explanation of GS'd remark.

One of my most infuriating weaknesses is my inability to read between the lines. What may seem perfectly clear to others is unclear to me if it is couched in diplomacy. Sometimes when reading scripture, I have to stop and ask the Lord, "why in the world did you do/say that?" That leads to a study to try to determine the reason for the action or words that I couldn't understand.

One time in high school math class, I asked the teacher a question and was told abruptly to "SIT DOWN!!" I learned later that my question was evidently looking for a logical meaning behind the problem when it was factual and didn't require logic. I evidently worked so hard on resolving that technique that I now am more comfortable with the clear and factual!

So....thank you very much for that clarification! I so appreciate both you and GodsStudent whose comments have been a blessing to so many over the years on the board.

:hugs:
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Exit40 on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:David, I am both humbled and grateful for your complement, but most of all for your explanation of GS'd remark.


Just being truthful, didn't mean to compliment. :wink: :laugh: :hugs:

One of my most infuriating weaknesses is my inability to read between the lines. What may seem perfectly clear to others is unclear to me if it is couched in diplomacy. Sometimes when reading scripture, I have to stop and ask the Lord, "why in the world did you do/say that?" That leads to a study to try to determine the reason for the action or words that I couldn't understand.


Same here. I call it, getting olderer, and being more tireder. BTW, re Scripture, my best studies have come from this. It comes from being thick skulled or bone headed, either will apply, sometimes both. :doh:

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:52 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:David, I am both humbled and grateful for your complement, but most of all for your explanation of GS'd remark.


Just being truthful, didn't mean to compliment. :wink: :laugh: :hugs:


I just noticed I said "complEment" not compliment. :lol:

BTW, re Scripture, my best studies have come from this. It comes from being thick skulled or bone headed, either will apply, sometimes both. :doh:


Same here, David. While some youth may more comfortable and accepting of surface study, us "bone heads/thick skulled" have to dig deep and long which contributes imho to a firm, unshakeable foundation. I suspect that's the reason why "elders" are called to serve in the church. (are bone-head and thick-skull listed anywhere as gifts of the Holy Spirit?) :mrgreen:
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby Exit40 on Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:28 am

Abiding in His Word wrote: I suspect that's the reason why "elders" are called to serve in the church. (are bone-head and thick-skull listed anywhere as gifts of the Holy Spirit?) :mrgreen:


I think maybe yes, by the Grace of God. The need to understand what the firm unshakable foundation is, and desire for more and better teaching for ourselves, to be like Christ in the way we teach and love others, all that and more contributes to the Patience and Faith of the Saints, and to the contending for the Faith once given to the Apostles. Yup, the bone headed is the learning, and the soft hearted is the teaching.

God Bless You Sister

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:46 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
GodsStudent wrote:Ah, she IS human!!! hehe.


:humm:


It was a light hearted joke to imply that most of the time you are pretty perfect.....a great blend of leader, teacher, moderator, etc.....your issuing an apology for doing something you thought was wrong was a chance for me to give you a light tease, given that almost always you are those other "really high" qualities. No harm at all intended....I was teasing you for being "so good" almost all the time to the point that you're pretty close to perfect. Hope you took it that way and ONLY that way. It was a smiley passed your way....not a frownie.
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Re: Here we go again, rewriting a Biblical curse on womankind

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:49 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:
GodsStudent wrote:Ah, she IS human!!! hehe.


:humm:


I'd like to chime in here with my impression. Abiding, you are such a rock, great teacher and leader, for you to say you can get snarky is to show you have a human side to your character. Not a bad thing, rather, it is a confirmation of GS's character also. I think she wants to be like you. And yes, you are a blessing.

God Bless You

David


Ah, didn't see this before I replied above. Exactly right, David....Thanks for assisting me in trying to clear up my internet mess....The first post I saw when I opened this thread was Abiding's :humm: post, and I answered, then went back to read, and you hit the nail on the head...>Abiding is consistently a leader with outstanding attributes that I hope I can achieve as I grow, too.
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