The LAST DAY

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:46 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:If Christ's Earthly Ministry is a part of the LAST DAY - then you would have to totally rule out a literal Millennial Kingdom - as it occurred more than 1,000 years ago.

Just wanted to re-iterated the reason that there still is no conflict. As I said before, it's as simple as realizing that the Last Day Does Not need to occur in an uninterrupted 1,000 year time span.
It's true that you think that is a necessary aspect of the Last Day...but it just is not at all required to occur in a straight time line.

Why are you so sure that it Absolutely Must occur that way when the Scriptures I've already provided speak very clearly, at least to me, to the contrary?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:56 pm

shorttribber wrote:The difficulty that you're thinking exists is answered in you own statement. Many things Occur DURING the Day of The Lord, His Physical Coming and the Burning Earth Occur During That Day. How is it that Chist Ministry is not in view also In That Day? It's seems that you've discovered that the Seventieth Week is Easily Split in Two, but are unable to see the Split is just as Easy For God regarding the Last Day/Day of the Lord.it's the Same Principle...God Can and Did divide the Last Day just as He Did the Last Week....it's that simple.


Shorty, I think that we have an obvious disagreement here. I do not believe that the term "That Day" is synonymous with the LAST DAY- as you apparently do. Hence the term "That Day" when used in the example of Christ's Ministry that you have provided, is more of an idiom (in comparison) that you have tried to unite to the LAST DAY. His Ministry is a "Part" of the Seventieth Week - to that I have conceded to. However the Seventieth Week is NOT the LAST DAY - with the exception of day 2,520. So in essence the LAST DAY is NOT split or divided. It is a UNIQUE DAY as I continue to mention.

Mr Baldy wrote:
I also remember that you thought the Sheep & Goats Judgment was a "Parable." Well, if you are correct, then you cannot possibly believe in a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ - and it would ALL End when He Appears.


shorttribber wrote:Not so fast Mr. B. Don't get me wrong, it is a judgment, it just occurs DURING the Great Trib., not After it.


Shorty, there is absolutely NO evidence that would suggest or support that the Sheep & Goat Judgment "occurs DURING the Great Trib." It most certainly does occur AFTER it. Please take a look at Matthew 25:31-46:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Sheep & Goats Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


As you can plainly see - this Judgment occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation, as it occurs AT HIS COMING - which is most certainly AFTER the GT. I don't see how you ever thought this Judgment occurred DURING the Great Tribulation. :humm:

Mr Baldy wrote:
If Christ's Earthly Ministry is a part of the LAST DAY - then you would have to totally rule out a literal Millennial Kingdom


shorttribber wrote:That's just not accurate MR. B., yes, there still can remain a literal millennial reign.


Shorty, again.....you are attempting to unite Christ's Ministry to the LAST DAY - subsequently having the 70th week be one and the same as the LAST DAY which would make His Reign not be a LITERAL Thousand Years as the question concerning a Millennial Kingdom has been put forth. Therefore, I very humbly disagree - and believe that you are in error with this particular theory that you have. Yes, Christ's Ministry very much appears to be a "PART" of the 70th week - but not the final day of the 70th week. And as I have previously mentioned, this will be a UNIQUE DAY.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:56 pm

shorttribber wrote:The difficulty that you're thinking exists is answered in you own statement. Many things Occur DURING the Day of The Lord, His Physical Coming and the Burning Earth Occur During That Day. How is it that Chist Ministry is not in view also In That Day? It's seems that you've discovered that the Seventieth Week is Easily Split in Two, but are unable to see the Split is just as Easy For God regarding the Last Day/Day of the Lord.it's the Same Principle...God Can and Did divide the Last Day just as He Did the Last Week....it's that simple.


Shorty, I think that we have an obvious disagreement here. I do not believe that the term "That Day" is synonymous with the LAST DAY- as you apparently do. Hence the term "That Day" when used in the example of Christ's Ministry that you have provided, is more of an idiom (in comparison) that you have tried to unite to the LAST DAY. His Ministry is a "Part" of the Seventieth Week - to that I have conceded to. However the Seventieth Week is NOT the LAST DAY - with the exception of day 2,520. So in essence the LAST DAY is NOT split or divided. It is a UNIQUE DAY as I continue to mention.

Mr Baldy wrote:
I also remember that you thought the Sheep & Goats Judgment was a "Parable." Well, if you are correct, then you cannot possibly believe in a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ - and it would ALL End when He Appears.


shorttribber wrote:Not so fast Mr. B. Don't get me wrong, it is a judgment, it just occurs DURING the Great Trib., not After it.


Shorty, there is absolutely NO evidence that would suggest or support that the Sheep & Goat Judgment "occurs DURING the Great Trib." It most certainly does occur AFTER it. Please take a look at Matthew 25:31-46:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Sheep & Goats Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


As you can plainly see - this Judgment occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation, as it occurs AT HIS COMING - which is most certainly AFTER the GT. I don't see how you ever thought this Judgment occurred DURING the Great Tribulation. :humm:

Mr Baldy wrote:
If Christ's Earthly Ministry is a part of the LAST DAY - then you would have to totally rule out a literal Millennial Kingdom


shorttribber wrote:That's just not accurate MR. B., yes, there still can remain a literal millennial reign.


Shorty, again.....you are attempting to unite Christ's Ministry to the LAST DAY - subsequently having the 70th week be one and the same as the LAST DAY which would make His Reign not be a LITERAL Thousand Years as the question concerning a Millennial Kingdom has been put forth. Therefore, I very humbly disagree - and believe that you are in error with this particular theory that you have. Yes, Christ's Ministry very much appears to be a "PART" of the 70th week - but not the final day of the 70th week. And as I have previously mentioned, this will be a UNIQUE DAY.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:28 pm

shorttribber wrote:As I said before, it's as simple as realizing that the Last Day Does Not need to occur in an uninterrupted 1,000 year time span. It's true that you think that is a necessary aspect of the Last Day...but it just is not at all required to occur in a straight time line. Why are you so sure that it Absolutely Must occur that way when the Scriptures I've already provided speak very clearly, at least to me, to the contrary?


Shorty,

I most certainly believe that an "uninterrupted 1,000 year" Millennial Kingdom is a necessary aspect of the LAST DAY. And I do mean ABSOLUTELY.

Here's Scriptural Evidence to prove why:

Jesus said this in the verses of John 6:

39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY


AND THIS:

44) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the LAST DAY.


AND THIS:

54) He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the LAST DAY.


In the aforementioned passages of Scripture from John 6- we see 4 times that Jesus Himself used the term "LAST DAY." This is when those who belong to Him are Resurrected and allowed into His Millennial Kingdom - which is a continuous uninterrupted 1,000 year Reign. The term LAST DAY is further singly identified as a UNIQUE entity of it's own.

Therefore the LAST DAY is NOT divided or "split" and is synonymous with the Millennial Kingdom - further identified as a "future event".

Please take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Order of Resurrection

20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that Those who are Christ’s AT HIS COMING, 24) THEN COMES THE END, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25) For HE MUST REIGN until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27) For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, So that God may be All in All.


Shorty, it doesn't get any clearer than that. Those in Christ are Resurrected at His Coming; He Must then REIGN until He has put all enemies under His feet - He then hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God may be All in All. This is ALL occurring at His Millennial Reign which occurs on the LAST DAY.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:36 pm

How can anything or anyone be "Gathered Out of His Kingdom
" IF "His Kingdom" is Not Present at That Time Mr. B.?

Math 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The simple conclusion is that they(the wicked/they that offend) will be Trespassers when "His Kingdom" begins Again immediately after the AOD.
The Kingdom Will Begin Then, just as is clearly stated in Rev 12:[10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.]

It's not a metaphor Mr. B. The Kingdom of God Does indeed "Come" right then and there, and All Them that Offend will Have a "Short Time" to do their Worst against the Saints....But "We WILL Posses The Kingdom".

What I'm saying will occur, the metaphor or Spiritual Fulfillment is Found in the Parable of The Sheep and Goat Judgment.
When Christ Comes to be Seated on his Glorious Throne....He will be Seated in All of His Glory "In The Saints"
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, I think that we have an obvious disagreement here. I do not believe that the term "That Day" is synonymous with the LAST DAY- as you apparently do. Hence the term "That Day" when used in the example of Christ's Ministry that you have provided, is more of an idiom (in comparison) that you have tried to unite to the LAST DAY.

Where we do disagree is that I see "That Day" and "The Last Day" as synonymous, yes.

Can you show that "The Hour" that you spoke of earlier in the thread does or does not refer to the "Day of the Lord"?

How can you reconcile the verses I've posted earlier that speak Clearly those thing associated with the Millennial reign that uses Those Exact Words..."In That Day"?
How can you do that, and in the same sentence reject the synonymous meaning as "The Last Day" or in another sense That Millennial Day?

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, there is absolutely NO evidence that would suggest or support that the Sheep & Goat Judgment "occurs DURING the Great Trib." It most certainly does occur AFTER it. Please take a look at Matthew 25:31-46:


I think there is plenty of Evidence Mr. B.....i'll post this one part once more...
It is understandable that you, Mark and so many others look on the Sheep and Goat Judgment as Literal. But I still do not agree, and there are many reasons why.

Firstly, as mentioned earlier, the language used....please notice
vs 32.....before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,........ AS........ a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Note here, at this point......it has been suggested to me that he is not telling a parable because the word ....AS....is used.
but........read further now....
vs 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
He does not continue this idea with the word........AS.
Could he not have said, and he shall separate.... those nations that are.........AS........Sheep........or........those nations that are............AS........Goats?

No, He plainly Indicates that he directly intended to call them Sheep and Goats............since all the people are not actually "Sheep" or "Goats" it is clear and Very Reasonable that he was speaking in a parable.

Secondly, The text in question sits at the end among the Other Preceding Parables that speak of The "Coming" of Christ.
Each of those parables have a General Theme/Pattern, it's a Separation time for ALL, There will be those who are Described/Illustrated as Wise or Foolish, Prepared or Unprepared, Wheat or tares, Faithful Servants or Faithless Servants, and Finally, Sheep or Goats.

Thirdly, Because the Pattern is so well Defined, I'm Persuaded to believe that there is Strong Reason to see this portion of the text as a non Literal expectation, and not to be Separated from the others, and receive it as Absolutely Literal.

Fourthly, It has been said, and the idea defended that where the Greek word "Erchomai" (strongs 2064) is used, that That Alone Proves it Must be understood in the Literal Sense Only. But that is just not correct......the following is a wonderful example.
Math 17
10.............Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

We know that Elijah (Elias, spelling difference) did not Literally Come "Erchomai". But in the Spirit, Power, and Mantel of Anointing.......OF...... Elijah, John the Baptist WAS the Chosen Vessel Among the Pots that BECAME the VOICE of God.

There are more examples, but this should be enough, especially since it is Directly Related to the Voice of God in an Earthen Vessel Prior to, and........ During........ Christ's First "Coming/Parousia".

Fifthly, Where the text, according to the King James Version says " When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:", here is the most critical part.
Here, at this point is where the Power, Mantel of Anointing, Presence/Parousia, Voice, Grace, and Glory of the TRUE GOD and His Testimony IN the Saints will be Fulfilled...............At SOME POINT.......DURING the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation.

Antichrist will have come to be Seated AMONG the Saints as a Liar...and Loser.........BUT.......Christ will be SEATED....IN........the Saints..........and the Testimony and Truth of Christ will be Known and VOICED by the Vessels of God, the 144,000 and the Church.
That will be...............A...................Seating of Christ on His throne of Glory......that is to be Revealed IN the Saints IN THAT DAY.
2 thes 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When............. he shall........ come (Echomai/strongs 2064).......... to be.......... GLORIFIED in his SAINTS,.......... and to be admired in all them that believe (because....... our testimony...... among you was BELEIVED)
IN THAT DAY.

I think there Is Evidence in the Epistles of Paul to the Thessalonians.
Notice the wording...
2 Thes 1:
.........4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that
ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory
of his power;
10 When he shall come
to be glorified
in his saints
, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power
:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

.................................................................................................................................................
And the Following also is important Mr. B.
.................................................................................................................................................
.Math 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The simple conclusion is that they(the wicked/they that offend) will be Trespassers when "His Kingdom" begins Again immediately after the AOD.
The Kingdom Will Begin Then, just as is clearly stated in Rev 12:[10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.]

It's not a metaphor Mr. B. The Kingdom of God Does indeed "Come" right then and there, and All Them that Offend will Have a "Short Time" to do their Worst against the Saints....But "We WILL Posses The Kingdom".

what I'm saying will occur, the metaphor or Spiritual Fulfillment is Found in the Parable of The Sheep and Goat Judgment.
When Christ Comes to be Seated on his Glorious Throne....He will be Seated in All of His Glory "In The Saints"
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:05 am

shorttribber wrote:Where we do disagree is that I see "That Day" and "The Last Day" as synonymous, yes.Can you show that "The Hour" that you spoke of earlier in the thread does or does not refer to the "Day of the Lord"?How can you reconcile the verses I've posted earlier that speak Clearly those thing associated with the Millennial reign that uses Those Exact Words..."In That Day"?How can you do that, and in the same sentence reject the synonymous meaning as "The Last Day" or in another sense That Millennial Day?


Hi Shorty,

I'm running late for work this morning... :mrgreen:

But I wanted to address your aforementioned statement real quick.

Yes, what you have mentioned will come true - however after reading your postings concerning this topic; I get where you are coming from, I just wholeheartedly disagree.

The TIMING of events you have mentioned is where I humbly believe you are in error. I don't agree with your interpretation. You have His Kingdom coming after the AOD, and your also have the wicked being thrown out at that point. Well where I believe you make the mistake (if I may) is that you also have it ARRIVING - at least not in a physical sense.

No, Shorty - it will not have ARRIVED until HE APPEARS. At that point the wicked will have been gathered by the Angels: He sits on His Glorious Throne; the Sheep & Goats Judgment commences - and the wicked are subsequently thrown into Hades (prison) to await the GWTJ. One Thousand Years Later when they are resurrected; and not found in the Book of Life, then they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

So again, it is your TIMING of events that I disagree with.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Exit40 on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:08 am

shorttribber wrote:Here, at this point is where the Power, Mantel of Anointing, Presence/Parousia, Voice, Grace, and Glory of the TRUE GOD and His Testimony IN the Saints will be Fulfilled...............At SOME POINT.......DURING the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation.
Antichrist will have come to be Seated AMONG the Saints as a Liar...and Loser.........BUT.......Christ will be SEATED....IN........the Saints..........and the Testimony and Truth of Christ will be Known and VOICED by the Vessels of God, the 144,000 and the Church.
That will be...............A...................Seating of Christ on His throne of Glory......that is to be Revealed IN the Saints IN THAT DAY.
2 thes 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When............. he shall........ come (Echomai/strongs 2064).......... to be.......... GLORIFIED in his SAINTS,.......... and to be admired in all them that believe (because....... our testimony...... among you was BELEIVED)
IN THAT DAY.



WOW !!! Preach it Brother ! Praise the Lord and Glorify His Name !!

God Bless You !

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:27 am

Exit40 wrote:WOW !!! Preach it Brother ! Praise the Lord and Glorify His Name !!

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:18 pm

shorttribber wrote:When Christ Comes to be Seated on his Glorious Throne....He will be Seated in All of His Glory "In The Saints"


:a3: And that is when His Millennial Reign Begins - NOT prior.

In your previous comments, you have His Kingdom being established immediately AFTER the A0D - which is contrary to Scripture. If His Kingdom begins at that point, then why is there a necessity to protect them for 3.5 years?

You can't have it both ways Shorty. Either His Kingdom begins at His Coming, as I am suggesting - or your will have to reconcile your theory as having His Kingdom come immediately after the A0D, as it just doesn't add up.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:34 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:In your previous comments, you have His Kingdom being established immediately AFTER the A0D - which is contrary to Scripture

It isn't contrary to scripture Mr. B., I've provided the scripture that plainly says so, but you've called it a metaphor.
Mr Baldy wrote:You can't have it both ways Shorty. Either His Kingdom begins at His Coming, as I am suggesting - or your will have to reconcile your theory as having His Kingdom come immediately after the A0D, as it just doesn't add up.

His Kingdom comes when scripture says it comes....just as I've already pointed out. I'm not trying to have it both ways.
The problem we're having Mr. B. is that I've been trying to explain that the word "Coming/Comes (Erchomai strongs 2064)" Does NOT Require a Literal Coming. I tried to show that by the following words.....

shorttribber wrote: It has been said, and the idea defended that where the Greek word "Erchomai" (strongs 2064) is used, that That Alone Proves it Must be understood in the Literal Sense Only. But that is just not correct......the following is a wonderful example.Math 1710.............Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. We know that Elijah (Elias, spelling difference) did not Literally Come "Erchomai".
But in the Spirit, Power, and Mantel of Anointing.......OF...... Elijah, John the Baptist WAS the Chosen Vessel Among the Pots that BECAME the VOICE of God.


There will be of course a Literal Coming of Christ at the end of the great Trib....But His Literal Coming is Not Holding Back the Coming of His Kingdom. His Kingdom Does Come when His Anointing and Power Fills the Saints Rev 12:10), During the Great Trib, and that should occur Very Shortly after the AOD.

So you see Mr. B., I'm not trying to have it Both Ways...There Is a (Spiritual)Coming of Christ in Mighty Power IN the Saints. And there is a Literal Coming of Christ also.

But I stand by what the scripture plainly describes as the Staring Point of His Kingdom...DURING The Great Trib.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:44 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:If His Kingdom begins at that point, then why is there a necessity to protect them for 3.5 years?

The 144,000 are protected it seems...doesn't look as though there is a lot of evidence that the saints are protected. I think there will be divine protection to some degree, depending on individual circumstances maybe. It really looks like that will be on a limited basis though.

Protection on a wide scale won't be what defines the saints though maybe...it will be the Testimony held; Mighty Faith and Power in Operation In Christ In the Saints....physical Death will not be feared. The Saints' will be Moved By Love, very Very Powerful, Real and Glorious Love.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:55 am

shorttribber wrote:It isn't contrary to scripture Mr. B., I've provided the scripture that plainly says so, but you've called it a metaphor.


Shorty, saying that the Kingdom of God begins immediately after the AOD with the Scriptures you have provided is HIGHLY Metaphorical - and I will prove it.

shorttribber wrote:His Kingdom comes when scripture says it comes....just as I've already pointed out


Hummmmm :humm:

Shorty, please take a look at what Luke 17:20-21 has to say about the Kingdom of God:

Luke 17:20-21 - King James Version (KJV)

20) And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you



In closing, as I have tried to illustrate - and for the purpose of the LAST DAY everything that I have been trying to point out has related to the Physical Return of Christ. You have used metaphorical language to prove your point, and it's just not adding up. For example:

You can't have the Sheep & Goats Judgment occur in the middle of the Great Tribulation as it clearly happens at His Coming - as Scripture states it does. Nor can you say that a "Spiritual Kingdom" has Come in the middle of the Great Tribulation - and use this metaphorical language to substitute something that is real and very physical that arrives at His Coming. Nor can you have a Millennial Kingdom without a prior very real Sheep & Goats Judgment - as there will have to be those who repopulate the Earth in mortal bodies. So either the Sheep & Goats Judgment is one and the same as the Great White Throne Judgment - meaning it is a "parable"; or it is indeed very literal, as I am suggesting in that it occurs AT HIS COMING - and it works in perfect harmony with Scripture.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:55 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, saying that the Kingdom of God begins immediately after the AOD with the Scriptures you have provided is HIGHLY Metaphorical

Please explain how you see it as metaphorical then.
Can you show me even one scripture that says that Christ must Physically be Present before His Kingdom comes? You could use the sheep and goat judgment as an example I suppose, but that in itself is not proof, at least to me it isn't.
Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:His Kingdom comes when scripture says it comes....just as I've already pointed out.
Hummmmm :humm:

Can't figure out why this little fellow ( :humm: ) can be considered a valid response, I've only pointed out what the text in Rev12:10 plainly says.
Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, please take a look at what Luke 17:20-21 has to say about the Kingdom of God:

Mr Baldy wrote:Luke 17:20-21 - King James Version (KJV)20) And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation:21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you

Sure glad you brought that up :hehe: They were Looking for the Same Kind of Kingdom (With all the Pomp, Celebration and Physical Recognition) that you are Looking for, or thinking Must Accompany The Actual Presents of His Kingdom.

When Christ first Came, He was the Only Citizen OF His Kingdom, And They COULD NOT SEE IT, They COULD Not Observe it.
It was within Reach, It WAS At Hand (Christ {The Living Word/Voice of His Kingdom} was Right There)...They Just COULD NOT Grasp it. They had the SOIL of it In Them, Their Hearts were the Soil of It, Where the Reality of it Could be Planted, but Could Not OBSERVE IT.

It will be the Same when His Kingdom Comes Again as Plainly described in Rev 12:10. His Body, Having Come to the Fullness of His Stature (See Eph 4 below), in the Unity (Real Unity OF TRUTH) Comes, Our
Testimony (The Head AND His Body)
will Be ONE VOICE
..........TRUTH will be The Voice and We, the Saints will be the First Citizens in His Coming Kingdom.
And All Others, the "Trespassers", will be WEEDED out Of His Kingdom..as it says here...
Math 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;



Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Can you not see it Mr. B., that His Kingdom will Come WITHOUT Observation Again?

His Body, the Saint's Will Be in it then, Right After satan is cast out. THEN, the way Christ has told us to pray will Come to Pass.....What has Occurred or BEEN DONE IN HEAVEN will Be So ON THE EARTH.....The Accuser of Christ's Body/His Brethren will Be Cast Down!
he Will Try his Best, with ALL of the OTHER Trespassers to Overcome us...but he will not! He can Only Overcome our Flesh, Not Our Spirits/Hearts. he will not be able to Overcome Us in Christ's Kingdom! Not in OUR HOUSE!
:banana: Not in Christ's HOUSE :armor: Not in the SEED of Abrahams House! :banana:
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:42 am

shorttribber wrote:Please explain how you see it as metaphorical then. Can you show me even one scripture that says that Christ must Physically be Present before His Kingdom comes? You could use the sheep and goat judgment as an example I suppose, but that in itself is not proof, at least to me it isn't.


Hi Shorty,

It is metaphorical language because His Kingdom has not ARRIVED. It is a comparison to what is to come. Please see the example of the conversation that ensued between Jesus and the thief on the cross as it related to His Kingdom:

Luke 23:42-43 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

42) And he was saying, Jesus, remember me when You COME in Your Kingdom!” 43) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.


If you'll notice the His Kingdom works in conjunction with His Coming. It had NOT ARRIVED. There is an interim "waiting" place called "Paradise" - for the Righteous as you can clearly see in the aforementioned passaged of Scripture.

Again Shorty, I get what you are saying....... I just disagree with you attempting to unite the LAST DAY with events that happen prior to his Physical Return.

Daniel was very specific about the 6 requirements set forth with the number of days that have been determined. It is the LAST DAY that is UNIQUE - as Scripture plainly mentions.

This same LAST DAY begins at His Return; includes His Millennial Reign; the binding of Satan; the time period that Scripture identifies as a "little season" in which Satan is let loose to deceive the Nations; and the Final Gog/Magog War.

Then the END COMES when Jesus Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:10 am

Mr Baldy wrote:It is metaphorical language because His Kingdom has not ARRIVED. It is a comparison to what is to come

Isn't that about just the same as saying "The Kingdom will not be present then Because the Kingdom will not be then present"? That's just circular reasoning Mr. B.

What can you mean by saying "It is a comparison to what is to come"?

.............metaphor......................................................................................................................
​    ​
literature an expression that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to possess similar characteristics:

[ C ] "A heart of stone" is a metaphor.
..................................................................................................................................................

The above example, "heart of stone" is a metaphore Mr.B.
How is "Now is come the Kingdom of God", a metaphore of When the Kingdom of God does Realy or Actualy Come?

Mr Baldy wrote:Please see the example of the conversation that ensued between Jesus and the thief on the cross as it related to His Kingdom: Luke 23:42-43 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)42) And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You COME in Your Kingdom!” 43) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.If you'll notice the His Kingdom works in conjunction with His Coming. It had NOT ARRIVED. There is an interim "waiting" place called "Paradise" - for the Righteous as you can clearly see in the aforementioned passaged of Scripture.


Do you think the Thief on the cross understood proper theology or prophecy Mr. B.? He of course was clearly expecting a Kingdom to yet Come...and there will be. But do you not realize that he was Not Able to Comprehend or "Observe" what was Then Presently Occurring?
Because Christ Shall Come to His Kingdom in the Future does not negate the Fact that He was Then Presently IN IT Already at That Time Also. He was simply Refused and Rejected of His Own In His Own Kingdom! He Established it Then...But it was to Come In by Degrees, and to Allow the Grafting In of the Multitudes of Abrahams Seed in Christ.

That's why Christ also said the following. you do not think that Christ Himself could have not understood that the Kingdom of God wasn't Present while he was at First present (Parousia)on earth right?
Math 12:
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Mr Baldy wrote:Daniel was very specific about the 6 requirements set forth with the number of days that have been determined. It is the LAST DAY that is UNIQUE - as Scripture plainly mentions.


How is this a disproof that Rev 12:10 is the actual Coming of the Kingdom of God? Many things will still yet occur in His Coming Kingdom...they do not all occur together, as you've already agreed.

Mr Baldy wrote:This same LAST DAY begins at His Return; includes His Millennial Reign; the binding of Satan; the time period that Scripture identifies as a "little season" in which Satan is let loose to deceive the Nations; and the Final Gog/Magog War.

This is what you've already said, saying them again is not Proof Mr. B., I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that your proof has not be established.

I've offered Proof that Chris's ministry was included in the terms "In That Day", but you have not given me or any reader any Reason to Believe that the words "In That Day" and "The Day of the Lord" are Not Synonymous.

Can you show that They Are Not Synonymous?

Mr Baldy wrote:Then the END COMES when Jesus Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL.

Yes, I agree, how does that disprove anything I've written?

I want you to notice something Mr B.......here again is Rev 12:10
shorttribber wrote:Rev 12:[10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now
is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for
the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.]


Note the Words, Now and "FOR"
...Define......For
3: Because of <can't sleep for the heat>

That's "The Cause" the "Be-Cause" ....The Cause of God's Kingdom Coming right Then and There, The "Now" in the verse is that What is Done In Heaven Is Then Done on Earth....The Loser is Cast Out....can't you see it? He will not be Able to Accuse Us Any More at that Point, At that Point, right then and there, he will No Longer BE The "Prince and POWER of the Air!

Do you think all of that is a Metaphor Mr. B. The Reason (The Cause) for the Timing of God's Coming Kingdom is written out plainly.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:48 am

Hi Shorty,

Mr Baldy wrote:
It is metaphorical language because His Kingdom has not ARRIVED. It is a comparison to what is to come.


shorttribber wrote:What can you mean by saying "It is a comparison to what is to come"?


shorttribber wrote:iterature an expression that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to possess similar characteristics: [ C ] "A heart of stone" is a metaphor.


Is NOT a"heart of stone a comparison? Is that NOT what I wrote in my aforementioned comment - a "similar comparison"?

Shorty, and the end of the day, you and I just don't interpret Scripture in the same manner. Just because you have a theory as to the way that you believe things, doesn't make it right. You are simply trying to take metaphorical language and place it at a time that is yet to come - however, it doesn't work in relation to the LAST DAY. You just can't simply incorporate "figures of speech" and make an event happen. Again, the Sheep & Goats Judgment does NOT commence immediately AFTER the A0D because you believe the Kingdom has arrived, when if fact it has NOT - and will not until He APPEARS and subsequently touches His Feet on the Mt of Olives at His Return.

The rest of your rebuttal just goes on to prove how you are trying to make sense of what you believe a "metaphor" is in order to make your theory fit. Well, it just doesn't work for me - as it makes no sense.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:22 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Is NOT a"heart of stone a comparison? Is that NOT what I wrote in my aforementioned comment - a "similar comparison"?

Of course "A heart of stone" is a comparison to being unfriendly, callous character, or not being tender hearted for example.
Those are "sayings" or "figures of speech" Mr. B., and good examples of what exists in a metaphor.
It can't be supposed that "Now is come the Kingdom of God", is just a "figure of speech".

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, and the end of the day, you and I just don't interpret Scripture in the same manner.

Well, I interpret Parables as parables, and when I see clear evidence that a parable is being told, I interpret it as such.

Mr Baldy wrote:You are simply trying to take metaphorical language and place it at a time that is yet to come - however, it doesn't work in relation to the LAST DAY.

Again, I'm unable to understand how you can assign such a plain and clear statement as metaphorical.

Mr Baldy wrote:You just can't simply incorporate "figures of speech" and make an event happen.

How you can call it a "figure of speech" is surprising to me, and probably to many readers also. Can I ask you this, are there any commentaries that also assume those words as metaphorical beside yourself?

Mr Baldy wrote:The rest of your rebuttal just goes on to prove how you are trying to make sense of what you believe a "metaphor" is in order to make your theory fit. Well, it just doesn't work for me - as it makes no sense.

Well, I was hoping that I was making more sense...just doing my best.

Mr Baldy wrote:We'll just have to agree to disagree.

was hoping we could continue to discuss this, but if you think otherwise that's your choice...it's your thread

bless ya :hugs:
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:10 pm

shorttribber wrote:How you can call it a "figure of speech" is surprising to me, and probably to many readers also. Can I ask you this, are there any commentaries that also assume those words as metaphorical beside yourself?


Shorty.... God Bless ya brother. :hugs:

For the record, I don't depend on any man's opinions or "commentaries to interpret Scripture for me. I ask God, and through prayer He answers me. And my interpretation of Revelation 12:10 is not an "assumption". I've mentioned this over and over again: you cannot take figures of speech and/or metaphorical language and try to make it doctrinal. You have taken one very simple verse of Scripture, and have attempted to build a theory on it that just doesn't add up.

Again, the Sheep & Goats Judgment absolutely cannot arrive immediately AFTER the AOD - and the Kingdom of Christ has NOT arrived at that point either. It is YET TO COME - this is why in relation to the subject matter of this thread - that being the LAST DAY- your theory does not work.

Now, for the sake of argument and to further prove my point - in addition to other passages of Scripture that I have previously provided - lets do take a look at Revelation 12:10:

Revelation 12:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.


Now, instead of making "doctrine" of the metaphorical language used when it states: "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come" - lets take the ENTIRE passage of Scripture into it's proper context - and the way it should be properly interpreted.

The aforementioned passage of Scripture when read it it's entirety, and not "cherry picked" appears to be making the point about Satan being cast out of Heaven - instead of the Kingdom of God actually arriving on Earth as you seem to want to make doctrine (a case) on. This is more about the power of Christ having dominion over Satan, now that he has been cast out of heaven, and the saints have overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and have given up their lives through martyrdom. The KINGDOM of Christ has NOT arrived yet - at least not physically - as the wrath of Satan ensues during the Great Tribulation when he is finally cast out. The power being emphasized here is in relation to the Kingdom that IS to come - that is why it is metaphorical language. That particular statement cannot be taken in a wooden literal sense.

In closing Shorty............God bless ya man! If you'll carefully read what I have posted, you'll see that it plainly lays out future events that are certain to come - and it lines up with Scripture.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:50 pm

Hello,

An interesting point is being made here by Mr B. in that he is linking a number of passages which describes the same event.

Revelation 12:7-11 can be linked with Revelation 19:1-16, as well as with Isaiah 24:21-22a, Luke 14:31-32, Revelation 20:1 and Daniel 7:8-14.

Mr B., you have highlighted when the Son of Man, that is to say Jesus Christ, will be given "dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." This event of Christ receiving dominion over the peoples of the earth will occur when Satan is cast out of heaven/thrown down to the earth from whence he is cast into the abyss/bottomless pit for a period of 1,000 years before he and the beasts/fallen/wicked heavenly hosts rise up once more to oppress the peoples of the earth for the last time.

Not everybody during this 1,000 year period will serve Christ but these will be faithful servants of Satan who is forcibly taken away for a time, a time, he foretell,. during which he will receive a kingdom which he will exercise when he returns to receive from his faithful servants. But then this is getting into our distant future, which is more than 1,000 years into our future.

Daniel 2:31-45 also tells us when the kingdom will be set up by God after the world sees the fifth segment of the statue, the feet of iron and clay, invade the Land of the Chaldeans which Jeremiah tells us, occurs during the time of the Israelites attempting to return to the land. This they do in their own strength during the last years of the fourth age of the existence of Abraham's descendants through his son Isaac. Jeremiah also tells us that the invading fifth segment of the statue of the Babylonian Kingdom, will attempt to heal the land of the Chaldeans/Babylon because of the oil contained within the land, but that they will fail in this because it is against God's prophesised decree concerning the Land of the Chaldeans/Babylon.

The question that needs to be decided/answered is, "When Jesus Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, will he then rule over the peoples of the earth from the face of the earth or from Heaven?"

That seems to be the stumbling block.

Shalom

PS: - Christ's receiving this everlasting dominion will occur during the last "days" of this present age which is a near future event.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:15 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The question that needs to be decided/answered is, "When Jesus Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, will he then rule over the peoples of the earth from the face of the earth or from Heaven?"That seems to be the stumbling block.


Hi Jay Ross,

The answer to your question is no "stumbling block" and can be found in Zechariah 14 - and a number of other passages of Scripture. However, I have a question for you...... since you posed the aforementioned question.

What is your take on the very question you asked - and how does your response relate to the LAST DAY?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:17 pm

Mr. Baldy,

Zechariah 14 does not, from my reading, indicate that, when Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, he will rule the earth from the face of the earth at all. After Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit/the abyss, Revelation 20, the Saints who will have been beheaded are resurrected and are seen in Heaven during the time of the judgement of Satan and the fallen/wicked heavenly hosts in league with Satan and they will be given renewed bodies as part of the first resurrection so that they can be priests with Christ and serve both God and Jesus.

Where do they serve as Priests? In the Heavenly Temple along with Christ as He is our newest and only High Priest under the terms of the Covenant which will be made like new again at this same time.

How does my response relate to the last day which is the topic of this thread?

It may not, but the Greek root G:2250 is found embedded approximately 389 times in seven different Greek Words in the NA27 Greek Text and we must be careful that we are consistently applying a particular understand for each occurrence of these seven Greek Words within their respective context placement. We must be careful that we are not inserting our own bias into how we translate the original text. The "a day of the Lord" is a figure of speech which can have a number of different understandings and hence a number of interpretations. It could be referring to a time span which is of the order of 1,000 years, or slightly longer, in duration or it could refer to the length of the daylight of a particular day.

In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked for signs of His coming(s) to the earth and of the end of the ages, i.e. the end of this present age in which we are presently living, and the end of the age to come. All of these sign are associated with a "Day of the Lord" or the "Last Day(s)."

But with your rigorous searching of the scriptures, you would already know this.

The Parable of the Minas is often confused with being about Christ but in reality it is a parable about Satan's faithful servants working to further Satan's desire to become the "king" when he returns from being away for a time in the Abyss. It occurs during the first 1,000 years of Christ's dominion over the peoples of the earth who should be serving Him.

The irony is that to be first in the Kingdom of God we must become like lowly servants tending to the needs of others and our acts of Grace will be rewarded, not with cities to "rule over" but with being acknowledged as being righteous before our Lord God.

It really comes down to our understanding of what is required of us during these Last Days before the ends of the earth.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:14 am

Jay Ross wrote:Zechariah 14 does not, from my reading, indicate that, when Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, he will rule the earth from the face of the earth at all. After Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit/the abyss, Revelation 20, the Saints who will have been beheaded are resurrected and are seen in Heaven during the time of the judgement of Satan and the fallen/wicked heavenly hosts in league with Satan and they will be given renewed bodies as part of the first resurrection so that they can be priests with Christ and serve both God and Jesus.


Jay Ross,

There is absolutely NO evidence at all that the martyred saints are seen in Heaven after Satan is bound - or any other saint. This in a very HUGE assumption on your part. Christ Clearly comes to the Earth to begin His Millennial Kingdom.

Also, I believe you may want to read Zechariah 14 again.

Here:

Zechariah 14 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)


1) Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2) For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3) Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4) In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5) You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!


Now in reading the aforementioned passages of Scripture, where do you see Christ or the Saints in Heaven?


Furthermore, here is verse 9 (Zechariah 14)

God Will Be King over All

9) And the Lord will be king over all the Earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.


Further Evidence is in Zechariah 14:16-19:

16) Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17) And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18) If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19) This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.


The aforementioned passages of Scripture clearly show the requirements of those nations that went against Jerusalem will be required to worship Christ in Jerusalem yearly to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

So in closing, where you get this notion that Christ and the saints are in Heaven is beyond me. In reading the Book of Revelation - there is only one time (that I can remember) where the righteous are shown in Heaven, and that is in Revelation Chapter 7 - where they have come out of the Great Tribulation, prior to the Wrath of God being poured out over the Earth - and is one of the main reasons I believe in a Pre-Wrath Rapture.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:23 am

OH,

And by the way... you also mentioned this:

Jay Ross wrote:they will be given renewed bodies as part of the first resurrection so that they can be priests with Christ and serve both God and Jesus.


(Emphasis placed on your aforementioned statement to validate a point)

Just so you know...........when we are with Jesus........He will be the ONLY God we will EVER see throughout Eternity. There is NO OTHER God - so the Saints will be serving Jesus who is God.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:26 pm

Mr. Baldy, you keep introducing stumbling blocks in your apologetic defence for your position which I find hard to process and accept as being based on scriptural facts.

Part of Zechariah 14 is describing events which will take place during the little while period after Satan is released from the Abyss/Bottomless Pit to do his worst against the Saints and mankind.

Sadly, it seems to me that, you want to set this chapter into our near future instead of our distant future.

It seems that we have arrived at an impasse which will not be readily resolved by further discussion.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:18 am

Jay Ross wrote:Part of Zechariah 14 is describing events which will take place during the little while period after Satan is released from the Abyss/Bottomless Pit to do his worst against the Saints and mankind.


Jay Ross,

Very little is even mentioned about the "little season" in Scripture - to include it's duration. The problem with most if not everything you post is that you cannot back it up with Scripture. I find that most unfortunate.

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly, it seems to me that, you want to set this chapter into our near future instead of our distant future.


Why would Jesus be Returning to Earth, subsequently placing His Feet on the Mount of Olives with all the Saints AFTER His Millennial Reign? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and is fundamentally contrary to Scripture.

If you cannot plainly see that Zechariah 14 is describing His Rule on Earth - then I don't know what you tell Ya. The only thing that happens after the "little season" is the final Gog/Magog war; followed by the GWTJ and the Lake of Fire. You sir, just simply seem to be putting the proverbial "cart before the horse"

Revelation 20:7-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Satan Freed, Doomed

7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Jay Ross wrote:It seems that we have arrived at an impasse which will not be readily resolved by further discussion.


I'm in total agreement with you. In the future you may want to provide Scripture to prove your points.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:46 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Part of Zechariah 14 is describing events which will take place during the little while period after Satan is released from the Abyss/Bottomless Pit to do his worst against the Saints and mankind.


Jay Ross,

Very little is even mentioned about the "little season" in Scripture - to include it's duration. The problem with most if not everything you post is that you cannot back it up with Scripture. I find that most unfortunate.

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly, it seems to me that, you want to set this chapter into our near future instead of our distant future.


Why would Jesus be Returning to Earth, subsequently placing His Feet on the Mount of Olives with all the Saints AFTER His Millennial Reign? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and is fundamentally contrary to Scripture.

If you cannot plainly see that Zechariah 14 is describing His Rule on Earth - then I don't know what you tell Ya. The only thing that happens after the "little season" is the final Gog/Magog war; followed by the GWTJ and the Lake of Fire. You sir, just simply seem to be putting the proverbial "cart before the horse"

Revelation 20:7-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Satan Freed, Doomed

7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Jay Ross wrote:It seems that we have arrived at an impasse which will not be readily resolved by further discussion.


I'm in total agreement with you. In the future you may want to provide Scripture to prove your points.


Mr Baldy, in your last response, you have provided evidence from scripture that contradicts your claims that the little while period is insignificant in our consideration of the Last Day events.

Zechariah 14 is evidence of what will happen during the Little while period at the end of the Millennium Age which is longer than 1,000 years in duration as it also includes the Little while period you have mentioned in your quote from Rev 20. It is my understanding that this period of the Little while will be of the order of around 24 years in length and that Revelation 13 etc. also cover some of the events that will take place also during the little while period after the Bottomless pit is unlocked.

Ezekiel 38-39 also covers events in the same timespan.

In response to your last sentence, may I also ask that you too provide the actual scriptural evidence that proves your position is true and right rather than just telling me that scripture says it is so. You want me to spell it out for you, perhaps you should demonstrate/lead by example

As I said in my last post, it seems to me that we have arrived at an impasse which will not be readily resolved by further discussion. Perhaps time will reveal the truth of the matter in our near future, within the next 30 or so years.

Shalom Mr. B.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:56 am

Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, in your last response, you have provided evidence from scripture that contradicts your claims that the little while period is insignificant in our consideration of the Last Day events. Zechariah 14 is evidence of what will happen during the Little while period at the end of the Millennium Age which is longer than 1,000 years in duration as it also includes the Little while period you have mentioned in your quote from Rev 20. It is my understanding that this period of the Little while will be of the order of around 24 years in length and that Revelation 13 etc. also cover some of the events that will take place also during the little while period after the Bottomless pit is unlocked. Ezekiel 38-39 also covers events in the same timespan. In response to your last sentence, may I also ask that you too provide the actual scriptural evidence that proves your position is true and right rather than just telling me that scripture says it is so. You want me to spell it out for you, perhaps you should demonstrate/lead by example As I said in my last post, it seems to me that we have arrived at an impasse which will not be readily resolved by further discussion. Perhaps time will reveal the truth of the matter in our near future, within the next 30 or so years. Shalom Mr. B.


Jay Ross,

As I've read some of the postings you have made on this forum - all I can do is continue to shake my head. You have been proven wrong over, and over, and over again by many members of this site. And it's because they back up what they say with SCRIPTURE - Not their "own understanding".

"It is your understanding" that certainly comes to mind when hermeneutical application is formed in anything you write. I don't know what translation of the Bible you are reading, but your biblical exegesis leaves a tremendous amount to be desired when it comes to understanding. I have no idea where you come up with most, if not all of the stuff you write.

As I have mentioned before, there is very little mentioned about the "little season" that Satan is let loose to deceive the Nations in the Book of Revelation - to include it's duration. Yet you have come up with this magical number of 24 years. Simply Amazing. Have you ever thought that Scripture calls this time period a "little season" for a reason? You further want to place this time period as a part of Zechariah 14 - when I have shown you very clear evidence in Scripture that folk will be required to come to Jerusalem to worship Christ yearly. He will be ruling with Rod & Iron as He sits on His Throne in Jerusalem. This is CLEARLY not the time Satan is "let loose" from his prison, as he is NOT let loose until AFTER the Millennial Reign has been completed.

In closing.... Jay Ross you have a very unorthodox way of interpreting Scripture - and sadly, I must say that I hope you are not linked to some sort of Cult that is teaching you most of the very unscriptural nonsense you post here. I for one have very thick skin, and I don't get offended very easily - but I just simply cannot read anything else you post on this forum anymore, because it is always full of errors.

May God Bless you - and open up your understanding.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:11 am

Mr B.,
There is no attempt on my part to further this discussion against your will, but I think this is important for you to answer.
You have said that the terms "The Day of the Lord" and "In That Day" are not synonymous. Can you still agree with your own words after reading the following two chapters of Isaiah ?

Is 2:
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:

8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.

11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
Is 3;
1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,

2 The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

3 The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.

4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

6 When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand:

7 In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.

9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.

14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:44 pm

Mr. B. once again you are playing the man instead of quietly presenting factually scripturally supported evidence to demonstrate your arguments against what I have written.

Yet you also hold positions that are not supported by scripture for example, that the beasts are "human" empires and that the "last" is the "Revived Roman Empire." (The lie used to discredit the R.C. Church during the period of the Reformation."

Whereas I have been suggesting that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are wicked fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. fallen angels, who have been allowed to have dominion over the peoples of the earth and that their respective characteristics are manifested within the people (groups) that freely chose to exist within their respective dominion influences such that their presence on the earth seems to rise up out of the sea of humanity.

Isaiah 24:21-22 talks about God judging the "wicked" heavenly hosts in heaven and the rebellion of the earthly kings on the earth along with their armies, apparently at the same time, and then imprisoning them in the Abyss which is also the Bottomless pit.

Isaiah 24:14-20: -

14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing;
For the majesty of the Lord
They shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Therefore glorify the Lord in the dawning light,
The name of the Lord God of Israel in the coastlands of the sea.
16 From the ends of the earth we have heard songs:
"Glory to the righteous!"
But I said, "I am ruined, ruined!
Woe to me!
The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously,
Indeed, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

17 Fear and the pit and the snare
Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;
For the windows from on high are open,
And the foundations of the earth are shaken.

19 The earth is violently broken,
The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
And shall totter like a hut;
Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
And it will fall, and not rise again.

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.
NKJV


Also Paul wrote in Ephesians 6:10-13 the following: -

Ephesians 6:10-13: -

10 Finally, be strengthened in the Lord and in the strength of his power. 11 Clothe yourselves with the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the schemes {t} of the devil. 12 For our struggle {u} is not against flesh and blood, {v} but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, {w} against the spiritual forces {x} of evil in the heavens. {y} 13 For this reason, take up the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand your ground {z} on the evil day, and having done everything, to stand.

Notes: -

t tn Or "craftiness." See BDAG 625 s.v. μεθοδεία G-3180

u tn BDAG 752 s.v. πάλη says, "struggle against...the opponent is introduced by πρὸς w. the acc."

v tn Grk "blood and flesh."

w tn BDAG 561 s.v. κοσμοκράτωρ suggests "the rulers of this sinful world" as a gloss.

sn The phrase world-rulers of this darkness does not refer to human rulers but the evil spirits that rule over the world. The phrase thus stands in apposition to what follows (the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens); see note on heavens at the end of this verse.

x tn BDAG 837 s.v. πνευματικός 3 suggests "the spirit-forces of evil" in Eph 6:12.

y sn The phrase spiritual forces of evil in the heavens serves to emphasize the nature of the forces which oppose believers as well as to indicate the locality from which they originate.

z tn The term ἀνθίστημι (anthist¢mi) carries the idea of resisting or opposing something or someone (BDAG 80 s.v.). In Eph 6:13, when used in combination with στῆναι (st¢nai; cf. also στῆτε [st¢te] in v. 14) and in a context of battle imagery, it seems to have the idea of resisting, standing firm, and being able to stand your ground.

The NET Bible®


Now in the above two quoted passages of scripture, I have not expressed any of my own thoughts yet the NET Bible notes confirm what I have been posting is probably very "true", but you have been suggesting that this understanding is wrong.

Now in Isaiah 24:22 we are told that after many days, let us say after 1,000 years when the abyss/bottomless pit is unlocked, (The NKJV tells us in Revelation 20:3, it is unlock so that Satan can be released for a little while}, they will be punished.

Now between the time that the Bottomless pit is unlocked and the wicked and fallen heavenly host, i.e. the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, are finally punished at the end of the age which include the Millennium (1,000year) reign of the people of first resurrection who become priests to both God and Christ, which is also at the end of the little while period. Daniel 7:12 tells us the following: -
Daniel 7:12: - As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
NKJV


In your response you stated that the Millennium Reign will be for 1,000 years, however we are also told that the Son of man will be given an everlasting dominion over all of the peoples of the earth which has no end, that is to say its duration will be much greater than the 1,000 year reign of the people associated with the first resurrection who will be priests of both God and Christ.

Now I do agree with you that Satan is released after the 1,000 year reign of the First resurrection priests for a little while, You then went on to state that my understanding that the little while period would be of the order of around 24 years was a "magical number" without providing any evidence for your put down of my statement. You do state the following " You have been proven wrong over, and over, and over again by many members of this site. And it's because they back up what they say with SCRIPTURE - Not their "own understanding". This is a false argument and also a false statement and an embellishment on your part of the truth to bolster your present claims.

People can state that they believe their "understanding" of the various English translations is true but they may not know whether or not the translation that they are using to justify their expressed opinion is factually true.

In your case Mr Baldy you have also made this statement in this thread in a previous post: -
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>

For the record, I don't depend on any man's opinions or "commentaries to interpret Scripture for me. I ask God, and through prayer He answers me. And my interpretation of Revelation 12:10 is not an "assumption". <snip>



So you express your opinion based on your own understanding that God has answered your biblical enquiry to provide you with an infallible understanding of what the word of God, i.e. the Scriptures, is clearly stating.

From this I can only assume that you believe that only your interpretation of scripture is right and that everybody else's opinion or understanding must therefore be wrong and to bolster your opinion you falsely argue that by the authority of many others I am always wrong because they have also stated so.

Mr B. everybody on this forum have their own biases by which they understand the scriptures and express their opinions.

Who has the closest understanding to the scriptures will be revealed in time as the Latter Days unfold. Sadly, our personal time clocks will shorten our days such that we may not see the error of our respective theories revealed.

Again, to keep this discussion going is pointless when you are so intransient with respect to your own personal opinion/understandings of scripture.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:43 pm

shorttribber wrote:Mr B., There is no attempt on my part to further this discussion against your will, but I think this is important for you to answer. You have said that the terms "The Day of the Lord" and "In That Day" are not synonymous. Can you still agree with your own words after reading the following two chapters of Isaiah ?


Hi Shorty,

I think that you have misunderstood what I have said - or I did not explain it very well. This is what I wrote:

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, I think that we have an obvious disagreement here. I do not believe that the term "That Day" is synonymous with the LAST DAY- as you apparently do. Hence the term "That Day" when used in the example of Christ's Ministry that you have provided, is more of an idiom (in comparison) that you have tried to unite to the LAST DAY. His Ministry is a "Part" of the Seventieth Week - to that I have conceded to. However the Seventieth Week is NOT the LAST DAY - with the exception of day 2,520. So in essence the LAST DAY is NOT split or divided. It is a UNIQUE DAY as I continue to mention.



Okay - First, I have no problem with you or anyone else furthering this discussion. I just no longer desire to discuss anything with Jay Ross - as he has a very undesirable way of interpreting Scripture, at least for me. Now, if you'll notice I never said that "That Day" and the Last Day are "not synonymous". What I said is I do not believe they are synonymous as you apparently do.

Meaning you have a different way that you have interpreted in "That Day" that I don't agree with when uniting it with the Last Day.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:48 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Okay - First, I have no problem with you or anyone else furthering this discussion. I just no longer desire to discuss anything with Jay Ross - as he has a very undesirable way of interpreting Scripture, at least for me. Now, if you'll notice I never said that "That Day" and the Last Day are "not synonymous". What I said is I do not believe they are synonymous as you apparently do.

Great Mr. B., I'm glad you wish to continue then. Ok, will you agree then that "the Day of the Lord" and "In That Day" as used by Isaiah are to be understood as synonymous?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:35 pm

shorttribber wrote:Great Mr. B., I'm glad you wish to continue then. Ok, will you agree then that "the Day of the Lord" and "In That Day" as used by Isaiah are to be understood as synonymous?


Hi Shorty - I know that you have asked your question for a reason, and you are going somewhere with it :mrgreen:

However, I think that we need to be careful with interpreting Isaiah 2 & 3 as being all and inclusive by singling down both of those chapters as being mutually inclusive when "The Day of the Lord - and "In That Day" are mentioned - by saying that they are synonymous with one another. Of course it mentions events that will occur in the Millennial Kingdom, but it also refers to events that have either happened and/or are going to happen in the near future of the time it was written.

"The Day of the Lord" has a lot of moving parts - and can encompass various time periods - as well as "In That Day". So it really depends on how we apply what is being mentioned in the different passages of Scripture as a Whole to get the right interpretation - subsequently getting true context of what any passage of Scripture is tying to convey.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:42 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:"The Day of the Lord" has a lot of moving parts - and can encompass various time periods - as well as "In That Day".

True...can we include God's Mercy as well as His Wrath in "The Day of the Lord"? What do you think?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:35 am

shorttribber wrote:True...can we include God's Mercy as well as His Wrath in "The Day of the Lord"? What do you think?


Hi Shorty,

To answer your question - yes, I agree with you. But after reviewing most of what you have written, I think that you must come to a conclusion on whether or not you believe that there is indeed a Millennial Reign of Christ.

Either it ALL Ends when He Appears.............. OR

It ALL Ends after He Reigns for 1,000 years.

I would love to hear your response on that - as you have never responded with a definitive answer.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:52 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:To answer your question - yes, I agree with you. But after reviewing most of what you have written, I think that you must come to a conclusion on whether or not you believe that there is indeed a Millennial Reign of Christ.

It doesn't appear to matter as far as the shorttrib/prewrath position is concerned really..as far as rapture timing that is.

But thanx to this thread, I've been trying to come to a firmer conclusion on the millennial fulfillment.
It just seems that I can't make a decision absolutely yet either way.

Mr Baldy wrote:Either it ALL Ends when He Appears.............. OR, It ALL Ends after He Reigns for 1,000 years.


What all ends? Eternal life goes on forever either way......

:banana: i'll just be happy to be with Christ forever, with you and all the rest of God's family. :banana:
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:18 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
I think that you must come to a conclusion on whether or not you believe that there is indeed a Millennial Reign of Christ.



shorttribber wrote:It doesn't appear to matter as far as the shorttrib/prewrath position is concerned really..as far as rapture timing that is. But thanx to this thread, I've been trying to come to a firmer conclusion on the millennial fulfillment. It just seems that I can't make a decision absolutely yet either way.


Hi Shorty,

I thank you for your response, and I must apologize for taking so long to get back to this topic - as I've been doing various and sundry things.

The reason why I mentioned that you need to come to a conclusion on whether or not you believe if there is indeed a Millennial Reign of Christ or not is related to what you have written. Your aforementioned response is not sufficient enough to stand by the position you hold.

Let me respectfully explain..........If you are unsure about whether or not there is a Millennial Reign of Christ, then you most certainly cannot hold the position of the Rapture that you currently hold - giving the timing of when you have set your Sheep & Goats Judgment theory - as it all just simply doesn't add up. Please refer to the previous passage of Scripture that you have provided Matthew 13 - and related it to the Kingdom being started after the A0D with the wicked being gathered out.

In closing........ I must admit that I could be very wrong about there being a literal Millennial Kingdom as well - but Scripture seems to support this theory. I must also admit that It could very well ALL End at His Coming. This would mean that the Sheep & Goats Judgment that we have been discussing is indeed one and the same as the Great White Throne Judgment - and is indeed a parable as you have suggested. It would also mean that there is only ONE General Resurrection - for both good and evil Having it ALL End at His Coming. It would also clear up the entire variations of the Rapture Theory as well - as it ALL relates to a single; very unique day........and it's called the LAST DAY.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:06 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Let me respectfully explain..........If you are unsure about whether or not there is a Millennial Reign of Christ, then you most certainly cannot hold the position of the Rapture that you currently hold - giving the timing of when you have set your Sheep & Goats Judgment theory - as it all just simply doesn't add up.

Hi Mr B.,
Just can't agree that my rapture position is in any way affected by how I view the Sheep and Goat Judgment. This is why. If that Judgment is in some other sense literal rather than spiritual, it will still occur in the final 3.5. Shorttrib/prewrath just requires a rapture After the full 3.5.
Therefore, that judgment either occurs during or after the 3.5, not effecting the timing of the rapture either way.

it could be argued that may stand on the literal sense of those words in Rev 12:10 does affect the timing of that judgment....but the rapture is not changed...I could believe as you about a literal sheep and goat judgment.
Then I would just be a Shorttribber in the same manner as you are now...because you are a shorttribber now :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:45 am

shorttribber wrote:I would just be a Shorttribber in the same manner as you are now...because you are a shorttribber now


Ha ha ha ha! Indeed I am - but only because Revelation 7 has given me problems. Revelation 7 shows a multitude that no man can number before the Throne of God that has come out of the Great Tribulation. Were it not for that, I would be Post Tribulation Rapture all the way. However, let me qualify my stance, as there still remains some unanswered questions in my mind. Scripture tells us that for the sake of the "elect" those days will be shortened. It further tells us that at His Coming He sends forth the angels to gather His "elect" from the four winds of the sky. So then the question becomes: "Who are His elect?" and "What does it mean to have those days shortened?"

You see Shorty, Scripture has to be reconciled - as there is an absolute Truth. We as students in the Body of Christ must continue to search diligently to find that Truth.

shorttribber wrote:Just can't agree that my rapture position is in any way affected by how I view the Sheep and Goat Judgment. This is why. If that Judgment is in some other sense literal rather than spiritual, it will still occur in the final 3.5. Shorttrib/prewrath just requires a rapture After the full 3.5.Therefore, that judgment either occurs during or after the 3.5, not effecting the timing of the rapture either way.


Shorty, either I did not articulate myself that well - or you are not understanding what I am trying to convey. Of course your view on the Sheep & Goats Judgment has everything to do with the Millennial Reign of Christ and the timing of the Rapture. Because at the Sheep & Goats Judgment Christ is seen as Physically being on Earth. So, in essence it cannot happen prior to His Return. He cannot very well gather them unto Himself in the Clouds - then subsequently separate them at His Return to Earth to be Judged, that makes no sense.

If we have a situation where there is no Millennial Kingdom and the Rapture occurs at His Coming - then it ALL Ends at His Appearing. The righteous are gathered in the clouds with Him and the wicked are gathered out and cast into the Lake of Fire.

If we have a situation where there is a Millennial Kingdom - then the Pre-Wrath position makes absolute sense.
That would allow for a Pre-Wrath Rapture of the elect, and the Sheep & Goats Judgment would have to occur at His Return. The purpose would be for those who are in mortal bodies; have survived the Great Tribulation; and become His elect during and throughout the point in which His Wrath is poured out - subsequently making it to day 1,335. This would allow for Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled, meaning it will be the righteous who are in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth. It will be their offspring, who do not accept Christ during His Millennial Reign that Satan will deceive during the "little season" he is let loose from his prison -that will attempt a final attack at the Gog/Magog war.

What say ye?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:01 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:If we have a situation where there is a Millennial Kingdom - then the Pre-Wrath position makes absolute sense. That would allow for a Pre-Wrath Rapture of the elect, and the Sheep & Goats Judgment would have to occur at His Return. The purpose would be for those who are in mortal bodies; have survived the Great Tribulation; and become His elect during and throughout the point in which His Wrath is poured out - subsequently making it to day 1,335. This would allow for Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled, meaning it will be the righteous who are in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth. It will be their offspring, who do not accept Christ during His Millennial Reign that Satan will deceive during the "little season" he is let loose from his prison -that will attempt a final attack at the Gog/Magog war.What say ye?

I say it makes good sense....very reasonable.
Mr Baldy wrote: Scripture tells us that for the sake of the "elect" those days will be shortened. It further tells us that at His Coming He sends forth the angels to gather His "elect" from the four winds of the sky. So then the question becomes: "Who are His elect?" and "What does it mean to have those days shortened?"

These questions have been addressed....look at the following verse...
Math 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days
should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened.

As Jesus has said, "Those Days" Will be shortened for the elect.
"Those Days" have a fullness of 1335 days, and they will be shortened.
1,260 (3.5) years Is Shorter than 1335...it's that simple.

Mr Baldy wrote:You see Shorty, Scripture has to be reconciled

I agree.
Mr Baldy wrote:Of course your view on the Sheep & Goats Judgment has everything to do with the Millennial Reign of Christ and the timing of the Rapture. Because at the Sheep & Goats Judgment Christ is seen as Physically being on Earth. So, in essence it cannot happen prior to His Return. He cannot very well gather them unto Himself in the Clouds - then subsequently separate them at His Return to Earth to be Judged, that makes no sense.

Of course it occurs on earth.
He(Christ) does not need to gather them to himself for that judgment in any Physical Sense.

Think about this for a minute Mr. B., Where will Christ be "Seated" during that judgment?
Have you not already said that he Will be "seated" In His saints then, for that judgment?
If so, Where is His Throne then....out in an open field, where sheep and goats gather in flocks?
Have you not already said there will be No Literal Temple for Him to be "seated " in at that time?

I have said that if that judgment occurs After the rapture, that does not change the fact that we will still endure at least 3.5 years of great trib.

If my understanding on the sheep/goat judgment is in error...the rapture Still occurs at the expected time...some time After the 3.5 years, and Before God's Wrath is outpoured.

The sheep/goat judgment may occur in a spiritual/parabolic sense before the rapture, or in a More Literal sense(In Some unimaginable way) after the rapture.

Either way, shorttrib/prewrath timing of the rapture is the same...it occurs After 3.5 years of great trib.


But, I can say I've always leaned much stronger to a literal thousand year reign then not....just so you know.

I'm just not yet absolutely convinced of it....percentages would be like, 90% yes, and only 10% chance otherwise.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:00 am

shorttribber wrote:As Jesus has said, "Those Days" Will be shortened for the elect."Those Days" have a fullness of 1335 days, and they will be shortened. 1,260 (3.5) years Is Shorter than 1335...it's that simple.


Shorty, no one has figured out the mystery of the 1,335 days - and I mean absolutely NO ONE. It is a very HUGE assumption for you to make such a bold statement. "Those Days being shortened" could mean a host of things, that is why I have posed this question in conjunction with understanding who the "Elect" are.


shorttribber wrote:Think about this for a minute Mr. B., Where will Christ be "Seated" during that judgment? Have you not already said that he Will be "seated" In His saints then, for that judgment?If so, Where is His Throne then....out in an open field, where sheep and goats gather in flocks?Have you not already said there will be No Literal Temple for Him to be "seated " in at that time?


I have not said any of the aforementioned things - I believe you have stated them, but not me. I believe that Matthew 25 is quite clear about the Sheep & Goats Judgment occurring AFTER He comes to the Earth. The description of where His Throne is - is not provided. We can only assume that it will be in Jerusalem, as His feet lands on the Mt of Olives at His Return.

shorttribber wrote:I have said that if that judgment occurs After the rapture, that does not change the fact that we will still endure at least 3.5 years of great trib. If my understanding on the sheep/goat judgment is in error...the rapture Still occurs at the expected time...some time After the 3.5 years, and Before God's Wrath is outpoured.


Now that is an interesting theory. I see that you have placed the Rapture AFTER His Wrath is poured out. Hummmmm
Now lets take a look at what Scripture has to say: (Matthew 24:29-31)

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other


Now, in the aforementioned passage of Scripture, are you suggesting that the Wrath of God is poured out AFTER the "tribulation of those days"?

If so, what is your suggested timeframe of God's Wrath being poured out between the SIGN appearing and His Return?

In closing, and I could be very wrong - but it appears as if the aforementioned passage of Scripture seems to indicate a continuous timeframe (meaning no delays) from the time that the "tribulation" period ends, until the Return of Christ. In essence if you are suggesting that from day 1,260 to 1,335 God's Wrath is poured out - then again, that would be a huge assumption. We do know from Scripture that from the time the regular sacrifice is abolished and AOD is set up, there will be 1,290 days and those who keep waiting and attains to the 1,335 days have a special blessing. Again, no one has been able to answer this $64,000 question. But here is Scripture:

Daniel 12:11-13 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13) But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:16 pm

This is really getting good Mr. B.....will answer later tonight :grin:
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:29 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, no one has figured out the mystery of the 1,335 days - and I mean absolutely NO ONE. It is a very HUGE assumption for you to make such a bold statement. "Those Days being shortened" could mean a host of things,

I t is possible that it Could mean other things, true, but with the clear reference to that great time of trouble Jesus is referencing we know he is referring to Daniel 12. We know there Will be 1260 days where the saints are given into the antichrists power to destroy them physically for 3.5 years (Dan 7).
We know that the Wrath of God occurs After the rapture.
The wrath of God will therefore be poured out Sometime After the (1,260 days) 3.5 years then.
There is no reason to believe that we shall be raptured prior to a full 3.5 years since the scripture says in two places that we will be destroyed physically by antichrist for 3.5 years.
Jesus used the words "Those Days" for a reason....he was without a doubt referring to that entire 1,335 days, and they will be Shortened for us. The only part that is a mystery still to me about that extra 75 days is exactly When during that time we will be raptured. That is because we can Not Know the Day or the Hour.

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:Think about this for a minute Mr. B., Where will Christ be "Seated" during that judgment? Have you not already said that he Will be "seated" In His saints then, for that judgment?If so, Where is His Throne then....out in an open field, where sheep and goats gather in flocks?Have you not already said there will be No Literal Temple for Him to be "seated " in at that time?
Mr. B. wrote: I have not said any of the aforementioned things - I believe you have stated them, but not me.

The portion I'm referring to is where you used the :a3: fella to agree with the following statement I made...
Mr Baldy wrote: by Mr Baldy on Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:18 pm

shorttribber wrote:When Christ Comes to be Seated on his Glorious Throne....He will be Seated in All of His Glory "In The Saints"
Mr. B. wrote: :a3:


That's what I thought you were referring to since I had remembered before your position on a tribulation third temple. That there would not be one.

Mr Baldy wrote:Now that is an interesting theory. I see that you have placed the Rapture AFTER His Wrath is poured out. HummmmmNow lets take a look at what Scripture has to say: (Matthew 24:29-31)


That is not what I've said...God's wrath will be After the rapture/After the 3.5 years...that's why I can't understand why your finding it difficult to agree that God's wrath must occur Sometime After the 3.5 years and will Occur Sometime During the Remainder of "THOSE DAYS" Clearly referenced by Christ.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:43 pm

Excellent discussion guys!
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:00 am

Hi Shorty,

Really enjoying this discussion!

Let me say that I thoroughly enjoy someone who can have a reasonable debate, and back it up with Scripture!

shorttribber wrote:It is possible that it Could mean other things, true, but with the clear reference to that great time of trouble Jesus is referencing we know he is referring to Daniel 12. We know there Will be 1260 days where the saints are given into the antichrists power to destroy them physically for 3.5 years.


Yes - while this is true, does this include ALL of those who are the Elect? (More on this later)

shorttribber wrote:We know that the Wrath of God occurs After the rapture.


I find it interesting that you would say that. Let's take a look at what Revelation 6:12-17 has to say:

Revelation 6:12-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Sixth Seal—Terror

12) I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13) and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15) Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16) and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks,[size=150]Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


In the aforementioned passage of Scripture, we clearly see that the Wrath of the Lamb "has come". This is in essence the very start of the DAY of the Lord. Which happens at the sixth seal, as the Tribulation period is in progress.

Now take a look at Revelation 7:9-15

Revelation 7:9-15 New King James Version (NKJV)

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10) and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11) All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12) saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.” 13) Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14) And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.


If you'll notice, the Sixth Seal has occurred - The Day of the Lord commenced, and prior to this multitude of believers appearing in Heaven before the Throne - who subsequently have come "out of the Great Tribulation" - the 144, 000 were sealed (Revelation 7:4). Revelation 7:9 shows this body of believers in Heaven PRIOR to the end of the Tribulation.

So, my question to you becomes - will the entire Body of Christ indeed endure the whole 3.5 years or is there a "remnant" that remain that are yet the Elect and are gathered at His Coming?

Shorty, admittedly Revelation 7 has caused some huge problems to those who have various Rapture beliefs. Those in the Pre-Tribulation camp are wrong - because the Entire Body of Christ is here on Earth at the revealing of the coming Antichrist as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; so apparently the Tribulation period has commenced; The Post Tribulation believers are wrong as well - because Revelation 7:9 clearly shows a "great multitude" in Heaven as the Great Tribulation is still going on - and lets not even mention the Mid-Tribulation believers, as you know they are absolutely wrong. The only way that Scripture is harmonized is with the Pre-Wrath Rapture - I believe that it is very clear.

shorttribber wrote:There is no reason to believe that we shall be raptured prior to a full 3.5 years since the scripture says in two places that we will be destroyed physically by antichrist for 3.5 years.


I think that there is ample reason to believe that there will be a Rapture prior to the final 3.5 years as I have mentioned by providing Revelation 7:9-15. There is a "remnant" that are still the Elect who remain throughout the entire 3.5 years as you have mentioned - but not all. This remnant could very well be the 144,000 - and other Believers who become saved, subsequently making it to day 1,335.

shorttribber wrote:Jesus used the words "Those Days" for a reason....he was without a doubt referring to that entire 1,335 days, and they will be Shortened for us. The only part that is a mystery still to me about that extra 75 days is exactly When during that time we will be raptured. That is because we can Not Know the Day or the Hour.


I agree with your aforementioned statement in "part". I'm still unclear about "Those Days being shortened" - however. I can only surmise that the Elect Jesus mentioned does not necessarily mean ALL of the Elect - as a few will be the "remnant" that will be protected for the duration of the Great Tribulation, and will be subsequently gathered unto Him at His Coming - saving those who will be allowed into the Kingdom in mortal bodies at the Sheep & Goats Judgment. These will more than likely be the ones who protected the Believers during the Tribulation, and/or include the survivors who attacked Jerusalem as mentioned in Zechariah 14. So in essence, I am still very unclear as to what this 75 Day period is myself.

shorttribber wrote:That is not what I've said...God's wrath will be After the rapture/After the 3.5 years.


I stand corrected Shorty.........you are right - you did mention that God's Wrath will be AFTER the Rapture.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:46 pm

:banana: Getting really good now! :banana: ...will answer all later
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:07 pm

shorttribber wrote: :banana: Getting really good now! :banana: ...will answer all later


Cool.........

Also, I missed this in my last posting:

shorttribber wrote:That is not what I've said...God's wrath will be After the rapture/After the 3.5 years


Yes, and I stand corrected - however, in my last post I failed to mention that you also indicated: "After the 3.5 years".

So I would like to respectfully request how you're going to reconcile your theory with Revelation 6:17 - which "appears to begin the Day of the Lord and God's Wrath being poured out at that point - along with Revelation 7:9, which shows the multitude of believers in Heaven as the Great Tribulation has not been quite complete?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:10 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:That is not what I've said...God's wrath will be After the rapture/After the 3.5 years

Mr. B. wrote: Yes, and I stand corrected - however, in my last post I failed to mention that you also indicated: "After the 3.5 years".
So I would like to respectfully request how you're going to reconcile your theory with Revelation 6:17 - which "appears to begin the Day of the Lord and God's Wrath being poured out at that point - along with Revelation 7:9, which shows the multitude of believers in Heaven as the Great Tribulation has not been quite complete?


It has to do with how Standard (VanCampen/Rosenthal) "Prewrath" and "Shortrib/Prewrath" differ.
The following section from my "Shorttrib/Prewrath" thread will explain....
................................................................................................................................................
At the opening of the sixth seal we see the signs in the sun, moon and in the heavens that parallel those found in Joel, Mathew and various others and ends with such words as "hide us from the face of Him who sets on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb",Rev 6:16 "for the great day of his wrath has come and who shall be able to stand?"vs.17

Here's where traditional prewrath sees the rapture occurring based on the words in vs 17 (I agree, in part, but I'll show you where I differ some).
Traditional prewrath finds what Marvin Rosenthal described as "a convergence"@ rev. 6:17 and all that follows thereafter (trumpets and such)is the wrath of God
based on the words "His wrath has come" thus the name "prewrath".

This is where the Primary disagreement comes....I believe that the Wrath of God is contained Entirely in the Vials/Bowls ONLY.

Here's an idea, in the next post, that must be remembered in order to grasp the remaining pattern and timeline I'll try to explain to you.
post # 4...................(1) The nearly identical statement "His wrath has come" is found in Rev11:18, in Rev6:17 the statement is said by the ungodly and in Rev 11:18 it is said by the twenty-four elders.


(2) All of the trumpet judgements are superimposed over the fourth thru sixth seals, causing the first trumpet to coincide exactly with the revealing of the antichrist (the Loser), so that all seven trumpets share the same time period as seals 4-6.
Of interest to me is that Three(number of perfection) seals envelope Seven (number of completion) trumpet judgements.

(3)Since the trumpets overlap seals 4-6 the gathering occurs at the seventh trumpet (the LAST trump)I Chor 15:51-52.
Rev 11:12-18 coincides exactly with Rev6:16-17. This is why I agree that Rev 6:17 is when the gathering occurs, because the seventh trumpet sounds at that point.


Well, you (Not You Mr. B...this sentence is for those who don't know better....) might say, that is not so, the trumpet judgements span a period of SEVEN years......oh?.....show me proof of that in scripture.
You may have your opinions but no proof for timelines exist among the seven trumpets themselves to suggest they need to stretch beyond three and a half years.

Backing up just a little bit i need to point out something that is often overlooked at the end of Rev 6:17.
Remember the words "His wrath has come", these are the words that generally garner the most attention and study, but,the statement continues........"who shall be able to stand", these are critical words. Why? Because the following chapter introduces those who will stand, the 144,000 and the Church.
Post # 5......................I need to mention something here in regard to timelines: there is a common term used to describe sections of John's visions, I've used the term but as of recently found it to be inadequate. "Parentheses" is the term I have discarded in this writing in favor of "Definitive Interlude".
The reason for calling certain sections of John's vision a "Definitive interlude" is somewhat self explanatory, in such that they contain an area within the Main Vision that is not Necessarily Sequential, but they create a Pause (Interlude), and can allow or cause greater clarity to the overall vision.

From this point I will no longer type "Definitive Interlude" but will instead abbreviate the idea with...... "D.I.".

Having said that let's look back to D.I. number one (Rev chapter 7).

Why, you may ask would I classify Rev chap 7 a D.I.?
Because it is set in it's position to give a "Definitive" Answer to the Question posed in the previous chapter and verse, that being "WHO shall be able to Stand"? And, The Answer to this Question is also Sandwiched between the sixth and the seventh seal, thereby creating an "Interlude" within or between the Sixth and Seventh Seal.

If we look at the seals as a kind of Preface, Condensed Overview or Introduction to a Book/Scroll
, and the more detailed, greater, and expansive Revelation that will be Shown us in the Trumpets when the scroll is fully opened
, we can then learn the proper Pattern IMO.
The scroll is God's proof to His People, and the World, that even given ample time and opportunity the enemies of the cross HAVE NOT and WILL NOT defeat us!

The pattern of covering large spans of time to prove God's deliverance is abundant throughout the greater single revelation to John.
....................................................................................................................................................
Now also please keep this in mind mr. B.....
It is so common that people want so desperately to understand the Complete Revelation of John as completely sequential, excepting only a few "Parentheses" that Modern thought and Eschatology has Unavoidably been Forced to identify. The Idea of, not an "Absolute" Sequence, is recognized by Virtually All those who have devoted any lengthy study to the Revelation to John.
But please take a careful read of what I'm going to suggest to everyone.
Why, why is it so common to image the Overall Vision of John as Occurring as some kind of Scene by Scene Movie? Act One, Scene One, Act Two Scene Two..........Short Interlude, Now on to Act Three, Scene Three etc. etc.?

If instead we Comprehend the Vision from a less Western Perspective, and a more Apocalyptic, Hebraic perspective, what we can observe is a more Repetitious, and a Kind of Poetic Rhythm UNFOLDING.
The word, "Unfolding" was Intentional.

All of what we have learned, and has been Graciously Preserved for us of the Prophetic Visions, have been upon Scrolls, and Books. Now then, THIS Picture, THIS Illustration, THIS Vision of John is Preserved for us, not Only in the Written Text of Books and Scrolls, but it is Also Preserved for us AS a BOOK, or AS a SCROLL.
Think about what I'm saying for just a minute please.........Slow Down and Consider the matter.

Before trying to form an answer in objection......Slow Down and Consider the matter.....please.

The Format, and Very Deliberate Vision of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are to be Understood as the Arrangement of a BOOK, or Scroll, not as Movie Scenes.
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:00 am

shorttribber wrote:Before trying to form an answer in objection......Slow Down and Consider the matter.....please.


I will do this Shorty..........but I do have a couple of questions:

shorttribber wrote:Why, you may ask would I classify Rev chap 7 a D.I.? Because it is set in it's position to give a "Definitive" Answer to the Question posed in the previous chapter and verse, that being "WHO shall be able to Stand"? And, The Answer to this Question is also Sandwiched between the sixth and the seventh seal, thereby creating an "Interlude" within or between the Sixth and Seventh Seal.


Shorty, I'm not so sure one should take the question: "Who shall be able to Stand?" in a literal sense. I think it's a Rhetorical Question. I think so because His Wrath has come! However, the 144,000 are sealed at that point; the Earth, Sea, and Trees are subsequently not harmed until they are Divinely protected, and then the Rapture occurs.

Continuing.......

shorttribber wrote:The reason for calling certain sections of John's vision a "Definitive interlude" is somewhat self explanatory, in such that they contain an area within the Main Vision that is not Necessarily Sequential, but they create a Pause (Interlude), and can allow or cause greater clarity to the overall vision.


I don't know if I agree........But Ok, but what are you going to do with the very beginning of Revelation 7:1?

It states: "After these things" - this is AFTER the 144,000 are sealed prior to His Wrath, and the Multitude subsequently appear in Heaven. This is very clear evidence that the Great Tribulation is still occurring; and the Church has been removed - save the 144, 000 who have to be Divinely protected in order to STAND.

Those are the questions I had based on what you submitted so far. Nevertheless, I will do as you suggested and deeply consider what you have mentioned.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:07 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Those are the questions I had based on what you submitted so far. Nevertheless, I will do as you suggested and deeply consider what you have mentioned.

Will respond a little later as usual...very good to hear that...... you are true student of prophecy, and Child of God in His household of faith. :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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